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Thu 13th October 2005

Refuge support for Judge Recordon

Filed under: Domestic Violence,Law & Courts — JohnPotter @ 9:40 am

Refuge supports not jailing wife-beaters NZ Herald

Glenda Ryan, manager of Henderson’s Viviana refuge, said local refuges supported a Waitakere pilot scheme which encourages men charged with domestic violence to plead guilty and attend anger management courses and drug and alcohol counselling.

The pilot makes men charged with domestic violence less likely to be jailed in Waitakere than in most other parts of the country apart from Manukau, where a similar pilot started in February.

Judge Philip Recordon, one of three Waitakere judges who hear domestic violence cases, told a conference in Wellington that men who beat their partners should not be jailed if their behaviour could be changed in other ways.

“The more you can do to change his behaviour the better – what’s the point of locking them up if you can avoid it?” he was reported to have asked. The text of his speech has not been released. He is reported to have said that judges should consider discharging first-time offenders without conviction in a minority of domestic violence cases “at the lower end of the scale”.

Ms Ryan said many women who were beaten by their partners wanted the violence to stop, but still wanted the relationship to continue and were not willing to send them to jail.

“In the old system a lot of the men would plead not guilty and go to a defended hearing. On the day their partner would refuse to give evidence and they would walk free,” she said.

“When there is a chance to offer help and services to those families, women are prepared to stick with their complaints on the basis that their partners will be sent to things like anger management and drug and alcohol counselling and any other personal counselling that they might need.”

JohnP comments: Although the Herald finds support for Judge Recordon from a refuge is “unexpected”, it is perhaps not so surprising when you understand that the Henderson Refuge is not aligned with the National Collective of Women’s Refuges, precisely because it dares to support grass-roots community values and initiatives rather than the radical feminist hard line.

This story raises important questions of equity – how long will men who aren’t lucky enough to live in Waitarere or Manukau be forced to tolerate the simplistic ‘one size fits all’ Domestic Violence intervention model (ie: Duluth), based on the ideological agenda of man-hating 20th century lesbians?

15 Responses to “Refuge support for Judge Recordon”

  1. Chris says:

    If the refuge industry ever acknowledges that women perpetrate domestic violence as much as men do, they might have some credibility.

    Until that happens, they will remain misguided feminazis who use the hatred of men to stir up irrational fears to get ill-founded contributions for their corrupt cause.

  2. Stephen says:

    Spot on Chris.
    Glenda Ryan can encourage men to attend anger mgmt and D & A until she’s blue in the face. I’m afraid if she thinks men who’ve been in relationships where the woman was also dishing out abuse will feel less than resentful being the only one in thier relationship to be co-erced into counselling she’s sadly misguided.
    I’ve seen enough hatred towards men in NZ – in my private life, in institutions, in the media, in shops, pubs, clubs and sporting events to be convinced there’s significant abuse by NZ women towards NZ men that isn’t being dealt with in NZ.
    I don’t call NZ a misandrist culture for nothing.
    That’s a major factor for me being ex-pat.
    Keep speaking out like this Chris.
    You are helping to create a place I may like to return to one day.

  3. Ethos says:

    Right on the money Chris!

    Before spouting this sort of garbage, Ryan needs to talk to all the men who have knife scars from their “women” or who have been beaten so severely and persistently with a piece of timber by their “women” that they are now required to live in a temperature/humidity controlled “clean” environment or the men arrested and convicted of assault when they simply defended themselves against their psychotically aggressive “women” attacking them with feet and fists…

    There is only one solution to domestic violence in New Zealand and that is to eradicate “women’s refuge”, the femi-Nazi brigade (aka the Labour party) and all the queers and tossers supporting this absurd and irrational distortion of reality.

  4. JohnP says:

    Other Women’s Refuges are more predictable (from the Bay of Plenty Times):

    But Hazel Hape, manager of Tauranga Women’s Refuge, said the judge’s comments were the ones that went against reality.

    “The judge is sending a dangerous message to men who offend and our men of the future that it is okay to raise their hand to hit someone. The bottom line is, violence in any form is not okay.

    “His comments also make it much harder to persuade women to come forward and go through the ordeal of a court case, if they have no confidence that a judge, a person in such a position of influence, won’t take their situation seriously.”

    Dennis Blake, from Tauranga’s Living Without Violence Collective, who co-ordinates men’s anti-violence programmes for male offenders, also agrees Judge Recordon’s comments were not constructive.

    “Our programme is about promoting safety for women and children, and trying to break the cycle of violence. I don’t believe there is any occasion where men should be allowed to get away with their offending. There has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere.”

  5. Caroline says:

    Show me 10 men for every 1000 women who are beaten up by their partners! Men can defend themselves against what you suggest “women’s violence”. Men are typically bigger and stronger than women and use their strength against women. Some women might strike against a man, and I’m not saying this is right – it is wrong, but it’s hardly that prevalent. i don’t know where you get your information from. I worked at a women’s refuge and it is hardly a feminist place – people work hard to support people who have been beaten by their partners and husbands and work for the women what they want to do. Glenda Ryan knows what she is talking about and is not spouting a bunch of garbage – it is you that is spouting garbage. Domestic Violence is a cycle of abuse that is historically and typically men against women.

  6. Benjamin Easton says:

    The problem with this is those men who want to attend these courses but cannot afford them have to hit their women folk to get a free seat.
    If we make alternative kinds of (gender neutral) courses open to all comers and gender neutral then the response may be interesting. Seminars (a cultural beginning) that stated they would discuss/debate men’s and women’s violence as topical would draw interest. Thereafter the living without violence courses of the future could be mapped.
    Waitakere has a reasonable record in considering violence albeit that it is stuck in the paradox of its own market existence.
    It has progressed seeking funds and interest in programmes to challenge its high incident rate of domestic violence “Domestic Violence Wednesday” was always a fascinating spectacle viewing in public through the District Court, the same kind of matters that were hushed up under a media blanket downstairs in the Family Court rooms. It didn’t matter where the proceedings were or who heard them the media still didn’t report what was happening.
    Even though Waitakere prides itself on its work, the work is still fully orientated toward the woman as a natural victim and the child protected to her secured status thereafter. This, additionally, is not helped where the programme developments in family law for which Waitakere has been a considerable contributor are restricted by an absence of funds to implement the Family Court Matters Act provisions. The alternative promoted in this submission is that these seminars on openly exploring both male and female violence would go a long way into opening the closet paradox. Waitakere would be a good place to start. Glenda Ryan thereafter would be an interesting personality of feminist jurisprudence to approach.

  7. karanjiharr says:

    Caroline.. you have hit at your man friends.. whether it be in jest or not.. that according to the law is violence.. every woman doies that.. in anger and in jest more often than men do.. that again is defined by law as violence… so in summary you yourself are guilty of it according to law…

  8. Had_Enough says:

    That will never happen Caroline for the reasons you just listed. Men are supposed to be big and strong and bullet proof and to admit to being beaten by their spouse is something most men could not bring themselves to do. I am quite sure that more women are beaten by men than vice versa. This doesn’t mean however that we should trivialise the plight of males that are the victims of domestic violence. I can’t understand the likes of Veitch and, more recently Greg Inglis. What motivates a young guy like Greg Inglis, who had everything going for him and the world at his feet, to beat his girlfriend. I really don’t know the answer to this. I was a big fan of Greg Inglis but not anymore. Woman bashing sickens me! What you don’t seem to realise Caroline is that there are some very big powerful women around these days and some very gentle physically weak men. Women have become more and more masculine over the years as they have taken on what were previously traditional male roles in the work place etc. It is completely wrong to assume that men are not beaten by their wives, girlfriends etc just because you have not come across this in your experience. I can think of at least two cases of this, in my immediate group of friends. My ex wife frequently used to bash me but I never hit her back. There were 2 reasons for this. 1) I was brought up that way and 2) there would have been a queue of her female friends and relatives lining up to take her side and accuse me of being a wife basher. After all that fits the stereotype which you have so eloquently portrayed in your last post. A bit of a no win situation really which is why I left her.

  9. rc says:

    Caroline,

    I don’t expect you to take any of us seriously, but you should take Erin Pizzey seriously – she’s the woman who founded the women’s refuge movement in the first place. If you’re genuinely interested in alternative viewpoints (ironic that such a woman is now considered ‘alternative’!), try Googling her name and reading what she says. It’s so different to what current spokeswomen for women’s refuges say that you could be forgiven for thinking they aren’t talking about the same thing.

    In her book ‘Prone to Violence’ she makes the observation that violence isn’t a function of gender, and doesn’t arise from having some kind of physical advantage over someone else, such as men have over women – it’s a learned behaviour, acquired from watching it as a child. Consequently, there’s no reason to suppose that women are less violent than men in personal relationships, and in depth studies in North America have borne this out (particularly the extensive work done by Prof. Murray Strauss at the University of New Hampshire, and Prof. Donald Dutton at the University of British Columbia).

    If your experience of women’s refuges has played a strong role in forming your impressions, consider that that is only natural. On the other side of the coin, if you had been exposed more to men abused by women, you might think differently. Most policemen think that all of us (men and women alike) are only criminals waiting for an opportunity – their daily experience only further confirms this rather melancholic view of humanity. But the rest of us don’t think this way.

  10. SicKofNZ says:

    With idiotic views such as Carolines I’m not surprised that women continue to abuse their male partners with impunity.
    Caroline, your ignorance might be helped with knowledge. I don’t mean the fraudulent male-hating propaganda propagated by the Women’s Refuge either. Read some scientific FACTS:
    In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.
    Where are the arrest statistics to back those FACTS? Where is the justice for her victims? Where’s the MEN’s Refuge? Now, look up the definition of misandry and ask yourself why more and more MEN just don’t give a fuck about fraudulent propaganda from girls with their heads up their arses.

  11. mits says:

    Caroline Caroline
    “Men can defend themselves against what you suggest “women’s violence”.”
    guess what happens to a man who defends himself against this violence?

    “Some women might strike against a man, and I’m not saying this is right — it is wrong, but it’s hardly that prevalent”

    What colour is the sky on your planet?

    Hitting is never going to be right and argueing who hits hardest doesnt seem to me to be anyway to justify it.
    As to the womens refuge not being a feminist place, well I wouldnt want to describe it as a bastion of maledom would you?
    I dont condone violence from either gender and consider any attempt by either gender to justify their violence by blaming the other as self delusional.

  12. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Caroline,

    Should you wish to visit please contact for facilitation.

    Kindest Regards
    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09) 271 3020

  13. Hans Laven says:

    Duh. Probably “Caroline” has popped in, thrown her intellectual (light) weight around and won’t even read any of the responses. If you do read this Caroline: Read the NZ and international research done by other than feminist agencies; both the Dunedin and Christchurch longitudinal studies would be a good place to start. Look at MURDER statistics in NZ by domestic partners against each other showing 1 man murdered per approximately 3 women. Check the research showing that injuries serious enought to require medical treatment follow similar ratios. Not 10:1000 as you suggest, but around 30 times that level of domestic violence against men. And don’t forget that in society generally, men are much more often the victims of serious violence than are women. Who cares? You clearly don’t.

    It is true that, although actual incidents of partner violence are at least as frequent by women as men (and surely need to be condemned equally under any “violence is not ok” philosophy), men’s partner violence is much more harmful on average. The proportion of women committing fatal or serious physical violence is smaller than that for men, but its effect on each victim is just as bad. Women’s violence is still significant yet is treated as non-existent or unproblematic in nearly all DV initiatives and by the likes of you Caroline. Men are dishonestly portrayed as likely to be violent when only a tiny proportion of them will be so.

    There are too many situations where women are subjected to violence from their male partner, and intervening helpfully to rescue the woman can be a stressful and challenging task as you no doubt experienced when you worked in Refuges. There are fewer but still too many situations where men are subjected to violence from their female partners, but feminist groups and indeed the government don’t think those men worth rescuing. Abused men are often trapped in their situation through justified fear that they instead of the violent woman will be blamed and punished, or that they will lose their role in their children’s lives through decisions from a male-bashing system.

    Keep on spreading the misleading feminist propaganda Caroline. For now, it’s still believed by a gullible population but those days are fast coming to an end. Those spreading sexist anti-male propaganda are commmitting hate crimes for which they will be held accountable.

  14. SicKofNZ says:

    Caroline, advise your Women’s Refuge cronies to either change or have that forced upon them. It’s already started….
    Women’s refuge closed as it does not cater for abused men

    Coming to your misandric organisation soon!

    …adapt or become extinct! I’m voting for extinction.

  15. michael says:

    Glenda Ryan lied to the courts 7-8 years ago with regard to my case. I was set up by a woman who had abused drugs & worked in a non respectable career. Glenda(vivianas) & malcolm (manalive) were having coffee “etc” discussing my case together (confidentialty?) & planning their attack on my reputation, which i might add was planned to a “T”. Glenda never met me & wrote an absolute awful report about me & presented it to a judge, stating I was the worst case she had ever come across & feared for the safety of those around me. I pride myself on being very calm & never raise my voice so I was shattered when I read her report. The “victim” had tried to withdraw the order & stated there was no real violence & didn’t believe I had an anger problem. I know I don’t have an anger problem. I called the henderson MP,s office to discuss these social issues & when (margaret) the receptionist heard my name said “go away Michael” & hung up the phone.
    Recently I heard that glenda & malcolm among others had been removed from the system due to misuse of their positions & confidentiality breaches.
    The carnage these people left behind them is unacceptable & a horrible miscarriage of justice for the victims of these people.
    Why hasn’t the system looked at the people who’s lives were torn apart due to system that went mad.
    There should be a full ministerial review & investigation into the cases that were handled by these people. Thank you.

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