Take control of your lives guys – Your progene are worth it.
Guys,
there are alternatives to ending up in the father stripping femily caught. That secret mothering society which specialises in creating male servitude as the expense of female privelege. But you want to be a depressed wageslave who doesn’t see your kid’s instead right?
Look fellas, you can avoid the whole stinking shithole NZ divorce industry in the first place.
Join the marriage strike as advocated by Matthew Weeks (You can google him easily for his very well reasoned article).
Cool your heels for a few years en masse fellas. Then watch NZ women desperate to breed ’suddenly’ come round to taking an interest in why you’re totally with good reason commitment phobic. Oh, they’ll howl and moan about it for a while, and there will be times your frustrated at the conflict you’re in with womenfolk. But that’s the price you pay as a man for taking charge of your life instead of being seduced into servitude.
Also stay tuned into news of the soon to arrive (and so far tested in three countries as safe) male birth control pill. It will be a mighty weapon for you against paternity fraud and the plethora of relationships built around women’s fertility.
In the process you can watch politicians wring thier hands about the falling birth rate, influx of imigrants to make up the shortfall and ageing society.
Tough shit. They made your life hell shit in the first place with thier feminista ‘courts’ and femily law.
You didn’t volunteer for a life of hell in the first place.
Another alternative is to save up your sheckels and leave NZ (for a while if not permanently). There are plenty of places with much fairer women and family law in Asia, South America, Oceania.
You don’t have to put up with NZs instititionalised misandry.
Bottom line is you don’t need to end up an alienated wageslave for some woman you had the hots for who oh-so-easily took advantage of you.
After all do you think women with all thier family law and relationship perks are doing anything to change your oppression and voluntarily disempower themselves from thier currently overpriveliged position?
Do you think male politicians who make thier daily bread from sucking up to the sisterhood are going to magically recant and suddenly start supporting justice for fathering kids? Don’t hold your breath there mate.
If you’re like me you’ve been telling NZ womenfolk and politicians for years about how unjust things are for NZ men, but did they lift a finger to change things. Yeah right!
Take action guys.
Your progene are worth it.
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Well Stephen,
Not only have I listened and researched but I have lifted a finger. And I also expect to make a difference.
Dear Stephen,
I think this is why the government is moving to common law more and more to make men married despite their wishes. In Canada if you live with a women beyond a short period (I think it is 2 years or slightly less) you are treated as if you are married and she will be able to take 50% of your pension and all other savings( even with no kids in the picture). The last government made these unaware poor sods also responsible for paying these women if they parted ways too, and made the man responsible for paying this ex-girlfriends university bills too. This was challenged in court and the man lost.
Soon coming to a place near you.
Maybe that is why I’m very skeptical of what has been done to the rule of law in English speaking nations. Gradualism means slowly changing to revolutionary ideas so slowlyly and steadily that the masses (in this case men) never rise for they are all beat up at different times, and funny enough they play this your not allowed to whine(be a man not a loser)or be angry(angry white men are all Nazis).
Only through unity and setting our egos aside can this be stopped, not through the courts. Men continue to spend their last savings on the courts, giving sometimes their last dollar to the group who generally is in bed with the new ways.
Julie,
I consider myself very well connected to NZ society. Yet I can literally count on one hand the number of NZ women I’ve met in over 20 years of living there who’ve made real sacrifices to try and help overcome institutionalised misandry in NZ.
I’m talking here about fine women like Barbara Faithful, John Potter’s partner Felicity and Muriel Newman.
That’s what I mean when I say -
‘If you’re like me you’ve been telling NZ womenfolk and politicians for years about how unjust things are for NZ men, but did they lift a finger to change things. Yeah right!’
Goodonya for doing your bit. Your sons should appreciate that.
It’s a shame it’s come too late.
For I know good men who have already left NZ for more male-friendly places. They despise the place now for it’s misandry.
What’s more I’ll stake my right arm that unless there are long overdue changes to NZ laws and culture many more good men who could enrich you and your boy’s life will move away taking thier wisdom, skills and integrity with them.
Intrepid,
I concur.
Bang on target brother.
Good writing Stephen, but take care not to overgeneralize; that is no more fair than the injustices you are complaining about. Your call for men to go on strike regarding committed relationships is a good idea but unfortunately the force of biology will preclude it. Julie – thanks for your integrity and commitment to fairness towards men. I regret that you feel that the efforts of yourself and other women were overlooked in Stephen’s post. However, I have found that most women, while they might initially acknowledge the validity of some of the men’s movement’s observations, arguments and challenges, they soon feel threatened by them and become hostile. That’s understandable; nobody likes the idea that their freedom, power and wealth might be under threat. Few seem able to keep facing the truth. Some women join fathers’ groups in criticizing the Family Court because of their own grievances. The men’s movement would love it if women showed the same fairness in acknowledging men’s issues as men did and continue to do for feminist issues.
Empathic,
I don’t think I overgeneralise for I’ve learnt the hard way by much sorry experience to take things very slowly and cautiously with women. As such I see Julie’s late to the game and it’s not entirely clear to me yet what she’s actually doing apart from blogging here. Nor what exactly her endgame and motivation is.
(Julie, perhaps you could ellucidate here)
As it is a quick skim through recent postings on these threads will reveal I’ve had to challenge Julie numerous times over prejudiced statements towards men.
So we shall see in time whether her laudable efforts can be sustained.
That said you’ll see if you read my last post I do in fact acknowledge Julie’s efforts to date at fairness towards men.
I don’t share your pessimism about men’s ability in committed relationships.
It will be simple enough in time for men not to cohabit with women, get on the male pill AND still have relationships with them until such time as they have made gains in family and relationship law.
I do share your observations about women feeling easily threatened by the men’s movement and how few of them seem able to face the truth.
Having done years of service with other men in days gone by getting support for women – spending weekends collecting money for women’s refuge for example, then seeing how pathetically little the vast majority of NZ women were prepared to do to support the men’s movement I’ve grown dissilusioned. I’ve reached a point in my thinking about such issues that I now beleive it’s up to men to forget getting support from women en masse as in doing so they’ll just end up continually reacting to women’s self serving passivity.
It would be far better to be proactive than reactive.
Thus my call for men to take action independently of women’s designs for them.
As I connect with men in many countries examples of men doing such abound.
Only last week my American buddy married a charming Korean woman eschewing marrying “one of those selfish western women, who I wouldn’t expect to piss on me if I was on fire” (his exact words).
Other guys I know are happy to avoid western women too and be with women from Mexico, China, Taiwan, Morroco, Etheopia and Thailand. They comment on how wonderfully respected and loved they feel compared to thier times in relationships with western women.
They’re also savvy enough to realise that to marry and cohabit under western law they risk being horribly shafted the way a great many of thier brothers are.
Disregarding the fact that I may sound too flattering, I agree with Stephen (including his postion on Julie)100%. It’s refreshing to see other men who can see past the fog with such wise insight. If only other men would stop trying to prove they have never done anything bad to women by adding slogans every other sentence with the new wrapping of themselves in the flag (the wrapping of themselves as defender of children and that of pro-feminism). If we had more straight talk we would be much better under way to joining the wings that divide the men’s movement. Until then most will remain on the outside second guessing, with talk only, of 20/20 hindsight.
Stephen,
To give things a clearer picture from my perspective.
I began a group/charitable trust just over a year ago for single parents and we have 50/50 male/female although we are climbing on the female.
3 males 20ish rung looking for support for them and one I met. They were angry and frustrated. I could not understand nor relate to them.
They were tidy, smart, hardworking etc but had no faith in the possibility things would work out for them.
They were searching for support but did not feel Man Alive was for them. They said they did not have anger problems. (This is not a personal dig at ManAlive, just their story) They also did not want a group setting. They want answers and they want things to change for them personally.
I found out about this site and jumped on board. My mission was find out what is going on for these guys. I had never expected to find what I have. I have met up with people from here, e-mail a couple and speak on the phone.
So, now I know and I am organising meetings for the public around Auckland first with members of this mens site.
Not only that but I want to have something in a small booklet similar to what you, Stephen wrote as as comment on male issues. This way males will understand what is going on for them.
Newspapers and radios are happy to advertise free of events. We can ask for gold coin donations to pay towards costs.
My hands are pretty tied up in helping males. But not all males. There are plenty that I can relate to. The rest need YOU. But YOU need to give them what they NEED. It is not too late for there are more generations than yours.
So, the speakers groups can follow through gaining members and helping them.
This is not a competition of who gets members, it is about helping single parents.
I have since joined ‘Worlds Fathers Union’ (as you problably saw) to give stories from NZ but that will keep me up-to-date. They don’t seem to be as hard as you guys.
By the way,
When I say “you guys’ I am only talking about a few of you.
I agree with the comments Stephens friend made about western women. After travelling around the world a bit and getting to know the locals it was a breath of fresh air to not only meet people from different cultues, but also the huge difference in a the less abrasive attitude of women towards Men – even in Aussie.
It was quite a shock to arrive back in good old NZ to be met with the embedded antipathy women here have towards men compared to the rest of the world. I forgot about the looks of suspicion we Men get when near a child, or the assumption they have that if we talk to a female we are trying to ‘get down thier pants’
And then it dawned on me a few days later that good old NZ was in fact – good old New Femmenazi land.
This may sound like paranoid stuff, but as this was my first trip abroad, I was still in comaprison mode of the different cultural & social things, and it was all to disturbingly clear.
Moose and Stephen,
What amazes me is how you find on soil in some other land women treating men better because of thier ?? Culture was it.
It can’t be the culture because we have so many different cultures here already. I haven’t heard yet how wonderful the tongan women, fijians and other island women are. I think they are fantastic wives and mothers. And what about the Jehovah witnesses. Now there are women with integrity and honesty.
And you are saying Aussie women are better than Kiwi women. Well thank-you but I can’t accept that. I mean you have some incredible women here in NZ as sports players, teachers, business women, doctors, teachers etc.
And besides, Aussie women are more aggressive, competitive and outspoken than Kiwi women. And even that’s debatable.
Do you think that maybe, because you were a visitor things were different.
Do you think you may just attract the women here in NZ that you detest. And do you think you may get back what you give.
Julie,
You are correct – Women who have come to NZ from other countries are in general less abrasive than those born here. But it’s only a matter of time before they realise that they are much more privelidged than Men in NZ, and assume this societies current attitude.
I didn’t say we didn’t have ‘incredible’ sports players, teachers, business women, doctors, teachers etc.
You missed my point entirely – Aussie women may be “more aggressive, competitive and outspoken than Kiwi women” but that has nothing to do with their attitude towards Men, which was my point.
Do you think that you don’t see the difference in attitude of foreign women towards Men, because you are a woman ?
Thanks for confirming for me that Kiwi women are totally ignorant of thier attitude towards Men compared to those of other cultures, and so yes – it probably does amaze you that foreign women do have a better attitude towards Men.
NZ has 40,000 less Men than women….. go figure.
Dear Julie,
You are now comparing multiculturalism with a traditional society. Multi-culturalism is more about destroying the older traditional dominate culture, than about helping the aboriginal ones. The UN has all the nations of the world, but is ruled by feminists and socialist who hate the traditional cultures for they stop their agenda, except like the former Russian (and present Chinese) leadership liked the minorities in their costumes to come out and dance a little at certain times. Balkenizing in one’s country is done so as to make men divided.
Well run traditional societies are slow to change and take the best traits from any culture and add it to their own. Feminists and multiculturists don’t know the captial of the Inuit territory or any important facts(it is merely a feel good or group hug measure), they only know that by dividing the males they can rule. This is what the white Russians have done on the steppes from the the time they decided to divide and rule.
Julie,
Moose said it all. Go ask your menfolk if they haven’t/ been shafted by nz women from all sorts of ethnicities. And here’s the newsflash – they do so using A COMMON CULTURE OF MISANDRY developed and found in present day nz.
Moose is also 100% correct to clear up how you’re confusing women’s achievements in particular areas of thier lives (sports, business etc) with how women relate to menfolk. Two different issues entirely.
A woman could be hugely successful professionally and a coldhearted ballbreaker to boot. Again ask your menfolk. I’m sure many will concur with that observation.
Good to hear your so involved in helping nz men. You’ve made a start. That’s more than the vast majority of our sistas would care to do.
Personally after twenty years ‘in the trenches’ battling for men’s issues in nz – everything from fair treatment in teh femily caught to equitable healthcare to male friendly education and on and on; After losing my only child to nz misandry; After suffering through years of people stigmatizing and alienating me for taking bold public stands time after time for nz men; After suffering death by a thousand cuts in the daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, over two decades grind of hearing otherwise sensible people over and over spouting the most horrible bigotted nonesense about men…….. It’s good to here you’ve made a start to carry the torch too.
I reckon if you keep at it a few more years you’ll find you harden up too.
No I don’t believe I attract women I detest. What a dumbass thing that would be!
No, I don’t get back what I give to nz women either. I’m clear I’ve given much more to nz women than I’ve ever recieved. That’s part of being treated as a success object – For further information on that term go see Warren Farrel’s ‘The myth of male power’ a great read everybody should take in IMO. Reading it I’ve never felt so understood as a man.
Now there, I’ve just given to another nz woman.
Yes, I hear the difference in societies as Intrepid comments and feminists and socialists. I do get confused when I see the words “womenfolk” and “NZ women” and “western-women” in a negative context. I can’t help myself sometimes to take it personally.
Alot of women can see quite clearly and admit that they get more here in New Zealand than men. Everything is laid on for them. And they know and admit the men suffer. I don’t need to speak to men I know because I can even think back and remember times when they lost simply because they were men and were treated so much differently.
The question I asked was; Why didn’t they tell me about this? How is it that I only know this today?
The answers went something like this;
What’s the point and you didn’t know?
Well I knew. I guess one enjoys the rights they have and are selfish enough to turn a blind eye to others misfortunes. (if you can call it that)
I can tell you that when all this unfairness happens, young women become brainwashed into believing males are less important than females. Or that males get a harder time because…… (imagination steps in here) It has become a like a cycle in society. And if the males don’t speak up on top of the confusion, then women assume more.
Men will become just as Stephen predicts. (fertility machines)
But now us women have sons. That changes things completely. The same women that will fight for their rights must surely be willing to fight for thier children.
Stepehn,
I can understand you have fought a battle for so long that only progressed for the other side so I try and empathise with your views.
And we will have to come back to the book. I have 2 exams coming up.
Dear Julie,
We are well past taking it personally on the men’s side. Not being allowed to sit next to child on a plane, asked at airports to have a letter from your wife giving you an ok to take your son to see his grandparents, losing positions in university due to your sex, having your repution ruined because the courts aren’t impartial and allow biased coverage of the case, while closing cases that show women in a bad light to the media. Having the state take away your right to choose to get married by telling you’re married in all but name, though there are no kids(common law). The list gets longer.
Do you know how many times I’ve heard on TV male bashing, followed by anti-male legislation? You are simply experiencing what people, like Stephen, dealt with in the years of hearing women sound off in the feminist movements!
You said before you understand my point about playing the victim card, and are asking the same question in another way. Roughly half of men don’t like to tell others their problems to have them discuss it and do nothing about it. You get good advice sometimes and you get bad advice sometimes, and everybody talks about your problem but does little of worth to truely help you. Letting off steam means having less energy to do something about your problems. Women can talk for they are more likely to get support from many directions because of the old ways, plus support from some of the new ways. Men get none of the old ways of support and the new system takes even more of the few rights they have. How many women do you know go down to the homeless shelters to find a man who wears his heart on his sleeve and says, “boy that dirty crying man is just right to father my children!” If you give rationalizations for this accepted women behavior you are making generalizations about poor men that cry, without knowing them personally! Men have been known to come to the rescue(white knight) of dirty poor women.
Women never talk about their kind of total bad generalizing(blanketing), either due to total denial on their part or due to the fact that their life is centered on trying to make themselves appear attractive in looks, words and actions(baring women like the future Saint Mother Tersa) not in the real big deeds. Remember Gloria S. bad-mouthed mother Teresa! Women have to attack their betters indirectly to make themselves look good and equal and be loved for who they are. You should love enfants and very young children for who they are and then you should love people for their good deeds or what they are trying to make do in deeds. This effeminate idea, or propaganda tool, of “loving someone for who they are” is a recipe for charater stagflation. This is touched on in the book “Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus”. Women read all these books and say, “I’ll going to change” and then run into their rationalized fears which shuts down change real fast. Nature has made most women the personification of playing it safe, though they have many attributes that allow others to turn a blind eye to the self-serving sex(words, looks, crying, wraping themselves in children etc.). Men if anything are all about change, this is why they are stubborn about successful tradtions for it allows them to keep their barings. If you are going to help men Julie, first get to what is wrong with women in detail! We have all heard what is wrong with men at length over the decades, yet I have not heard any single women sum up her own sex with any detail at all. If you want to impress me(which I’m sure you have countless reasons not to need to do) sum up your own sex in the greatest detail you can. What do you see is wrong with your sex in non- vague terms? I can can do this with males, can you do this with your sex?
Intrepid,
You ask.
I will answer this but I need to come back to it later 2 nite.
Intrepid,
Just want to warn you that I think we are pretty wonderful.
Julie,
I’m staggered at your comments that -
“Alot of women can see quite clearly and admit that they get more here in New Zealand than men. Everything is laid on for them”.
and -
” I can tell you that when all this unfairness happens, young women become brainwashed into believing males are less important than females. Or that males get a harder time because…… (imagination steps in here) It has become a like a cycle in society”.
Hallefreakinlooya!
You’re a nz woman and you sound like your starting to get how it is for nz guys.
In my experience an extremely rare woman indeed! Well done.
Intrepid,
thanks for you previous affirmation.
Amazing posts bro.
I really like the way you ask Julie (and I suppose by inference other women) to espouse the dark side of women.
After all we’ve had decades of feminism highlighting and exagerating the darkside of men and the lightside of women. Meanwhile many men have subsequently allowed themselves to be guilt-tripped about exposing womenfolk’s darkside and being openly proud of thier merits.
I also think allot of guys have been too scared to speak publically about women’s failings because they’ve let themselves get pussywhipped. They fear loss of physical contact with women. I can understand this especially in western cultures where it’s become taboo for men to even cuddle distressed children because of hysterical suspicion of child sex abuse. In such a terribly repressive environment I see men being touch deprived, then defensive about this most basic human need.
Here in South Korea things are very different. I’ve been dumbstruck and embarassed on several occasions as I’ve had parents of children I teach complain that I don’t touch thier children enough; And that thier children will respond to my teaching if I’m warmer! All I could do in such circumstances was mumble on about how in nz things are different. Meanwhile they looked on in utter amazement!
HI Stephen
the reason why men are that way is because nature has made them the protectors, the women fragile – to be protected.
these days the protective nature of men is being curbed. DV exists but not to the extent it has been exaggerated and the cause of DV is laways overlooked… main cause being provocation which is always carried out by the females when men get violent. Why provocate a person to go beyond their limits of control deliberately and then cry about the consequences of the provocation?
why make lives miserable through provocating attacks? i do not excuse DV but at the same time i do not excuse acts of deliberate provocation and view them in the same levels.
Dear Stephen,
Yes their tactics are self-fulling in that you aren’t allowed to sit or touch kids, and then you are called cold & unaffectionate. You noticed they are flipping back and forth on your life and future again! But don’t get angry, unless if against targets they like, flip-flop flip-flop. It’d be almost tiresome if it weren’t such a destructive mind game played on innocent men’s lives with state support.
We might be able to meet in the future for I’m just across the pond you know. My wife has lots of nice friends, if your single, and our Boarder Collie is the smartest bitch you will ever love. Yet, you know I have my hands full in helping Timocrat.
Intrepid,
OK, here goes and non-vague. This is on the spare of the moment without books, so I may forget somethings and want to express that it is generalised and that women can learn not to do these things.
I chose this as negative because it is not possible for people to know what they did to upset you if you don’t tell them.
Hmmm. Now what?
Thanks for laying it out for us Julie.
It’s intriguing to have some non-vague insight on this subject.
Dear Julie,
A) True.
B) Yes, because of insecurity based on rationalized fears.
C) Both Sexes (though the mother role isn’t under threat and the male one is). Women thus want the male role, though made safer, and not give up the mother role even though the male has always been there to fill half the equation.
D) True, when you run on instincts and emotions this is a way of life.
E) Both sexes.
F) Both sexes, but men strongly tend to do it directly(Lion), and women take revenge indirectly(fox or weasel).
G) True, when women run on instincts they tend to test with plausable deniable polite probing. Then when their instincts give up a fear reading they use the deny aspect of plausable deniability.
H) True.
I) True, thus instincts run amuck doesn’t work most of the time, but are still fun to follow for too many people.
J) Both sexes.
K) True, when there is a perceived threat at a distance and person is unaware of a declaration of conflict. Yet, when faced with any direct threats that are in their face women are usually as dumb as door nails. Just as many men can be equally dumb in situations where subtlety is the focus.
Well, Julie I’m impressed. This is the best clearing of the decks I’ve heard from a women. If you act on this with women unblinkingly when they are truely distructive you have my sincere respect. When I say both sexes above I’m saying there seems to be no noticable generalization that can be made. If there is a differnece it seems marginable to me in my experiences. Yet, this is so interesting I hope others comment logically on it. Yet, unfortunately we are bound to get the cliche of “I’m just a person”, which is lazy thought masked as kindness.
As for working with each other, I think there is lots of room to begin. It is now a question of Honour, strategy and tactics (whether or when to be the lion or the fox). I look forward to your views on this. Very good work again, my compliments.
Dear Intrepid,
I agree with your comments. I don’t see myself changing my mind with this and will appreciate you help.
I don’t mean to sound my own trumpet here but I recently had the opportunity to sit in a group where a woman shared of being threatened by a male and received alot of comments on what a barstard he was (so to speak)
I turned the conversation as to her responsibilities of the events. She had been giving out conflicting messages, back and forward and had entered his territory and taken over.
I was so impressed that others saw the logic including herself.
End result is that she will now consider his feelings and understand where he is coming from. Also I think he will not be getting locked up anymore.
And I think I taught a couple of experts in the process.
I am suprised myself as to what I am able to do with the knowledge I am learning.
The one thing that upset me and I didn’t deal with was women saying you don’t need men to raise the children while there was a male father present who doesn’t get a say in his sons upbringing because his ex-wife is controlling and only calls him when she can’t cope.
But I guess “Rome wasn’t built in a day” applies sometimes.
Dear Julie,
Yes, acting on it is a whole new ball game. This is where honour comes in (acting on the cloud-like ideas instead of finding false rationalizations to remaim quite, in the example you gave). I choose my battles, but I do battle a lot. Smart cloud-like thinkers cut themselves off from battles or direct confrontations with deconstructionism, sophistry and more mental games. They always choose the way of the fox for they believe it always works and avoids stress and danger, when it is only playing with half a deck(so to speak). With everyone playing the fox, it is the bright constructive direct lions that can often get things done.
I would like to discuss with you ways of cooperation in a more private setting, and additionally not take up this forum’s space. To this effect please contact me at
oct1st2005@yahoo.com
With a lot of emailing I think we could develop some kind of working relationship between the sexes in concrete terms, instead of of simple slogans and cliches of good will.
Intrepid,
Thank-you.
I’m from one of those cultrues where women are less “abrasive”, yet i’ve lived in New Zealand for a while and have thus been exposed to this culture for the majority of my life. I know I get more personal freedom in New Zealand, but that hasn’t changed me into a man-hating she wolf. I think the problem with women in New Zealand is that their inherent sense of what it is to be female is replaced by what they are told. It’s a loss of identity in the sense where you think you have to become more like a man, and compete with men to accomplish anything in this country. That is the kind of attitdue being drilled into us. Their idea of feminism is to be more like men. It’s more of a question of which one has the upper hand now, even in relationships. Sad isn’t it?
And, as woman from another ethnicity growing up in New Zealand, I can fairly say that the influence of your original culture is definitely not overcome so easily, especially when you are 1st generation New-Zealanders. Men and women have seen that women from my country tend to be more “gentle”. They’ve observed this in me, but funnily that hasn’t prevented me from being “shafted” by New Zealand men a few times….that also says something, and i certainly didn’t think i deserved it. Maybe you are suited for the women in this country.