A documentary on Child Support
One of the best ways to get change to come about is to use the media, and change needs to come about. It seems to me that those that are leading our country are a long way off solving the problems that hound us with Child Support. No matter if you are a liable parent or the spouse of a liable parent there is no question that to some extent you have experienced unfairness through this antiquated system.
I am putting together a documentary to outline these problems and expose the often financially cripling heartache with in the IRD. I would like to get stories and interviews from both those that are affected and the powers that be.
If anybody would like to contribute to this documentary please let me know by leaving a comment or contacting me on tigerseye@xtra.co.nz
I’d love to hear from you.
Peace to all,
Tigerseye
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Hi Bull,
I’m not just a sperm donor, I’m my daughters father and I still have a responsibility to help her financially… but that’s where it stops. I just don’t want to be paying for my ex.
My daughter can’t live on $1.70 a day but any more than $10 a day won’t be going to her and if it is it’s just so her mother is trying to do everything in her power to make staying with her so much nicer than staying with Dad.
I love my daughter and it is still my duty to help her.
Well said Tigers Eye
Permission to bitch, Sah?
I’m so deaf, I couldn’t hear anything?, so I will proceed at my own risk….
#101 – Whilst you might wish to choose how much you will pay for your daughter and how much you will pay for the support of your ex-wife, you have voted in Lational and Nabour Governments (scrap’s nomenclature) and they have legislated that you will pay an amount calculated from the number of children and your income (ie ignoring the income that your ex-wife now receives and ignoring the amount of time that you actually care for your daughter – unless the care passes 40% and your ex will acknowledge this too).
When you and I voted in these Governments, we gave away any right to choose what we will do about these payments!!!!
You cannot put the children back in the bottle.
Your only remaining freedom, is to choose how much you will work and even this freedom is quite tightly constrained by IRD-CS’s ability to assess your income. (There are many constraints in life, this is just another on a very long list.)
Whether your ex-wife is sitting on DPB or is working, this is presently ignored in the calculation. This is really why the Government wants to slog you hard, to recover as much DPB as possible. They are practically flogging a dead horse, as only the highest earning men will ever fully repay the DPB. Thus over the nation, cs will never come near to paying for DPB. This was just a smokescreen to dupe the MPs into supporting the DPB and now, to keep discussion away from the ongoing social costs of DPB.
Is it appropriate to slog men whose wives are not on DPB, the same as men whose wives are ARE on DPB?
In most domains, the buyer chooses.
When you place the accountability onto the person who makes the decision, you usually obtain the most responsible and constructive outcomes.
Then give both parents the choice of paying spousal and child support and other takes care of kids, or work part/full time and take care of kids yourself, at payer’s choice? This approach rewards competence.
Generally competent parents take the best care of kids.
If the cost of the DPB to Government is the problem, then perhaps it would be wise to address this directly. For example, to pay DPB where it was shown that there was a REAL fear of violence (as was originally discussed in Parliament before DPB was signed off) and to check that the prospective sole parent has an acceptable level of parenting skill.
I am very uncomfortable with paying DPB to mothers who just get pregnant and then apply. I don’t see that these incentives lead to providing service to community and appropriate sharing of resources. To me, it looks more like unemployment benefit/blackmail/extortion, mixed with a generous amount of laziness. Perhaps DPB could be drawn from an individual account for future health benefits and payment of victim reparation?
We must be fools to subsidise these attitudes and behaviours!
It takes more wisdom than this, to protect and serve children.
For me, to obtain the opportunity to take care of my own 2 children for 3 months, I had to agree to continue paying (spouse and) child support at $960 per month, work 40 to 45 hours per week at my regular job and enjoy taking care of my children. It was worth it. This gave my ex-wife the freedom to take a 10 week holiday through Europe. I don’t remember her coming back for any of the weekends!
I didn’t just complain about unfairness, I was pragmatic enough to sense the real world situation and make the best I could of the reality that I faced. I had to work to midnight, or 1 in the morning, to get my work hours completed. I found my(our) children and their environments sufficiently rewarding, that I could work like this.
I didn’t have enough time to checkout the legislation and discuss it with IRD and other people. I had heard that this was a waste of time. I knew I was being cheated at one level, but I wanted to share in the upbringing of my children enough, so that this was worthwhile to me.
This is why I have trouble keeping my mouth shut, when someone on DPB is saying how hard they find taking care of one child on DPB. To me, it sounds as though they are saying that they are such an inefficient parent, that they are having difficulties. If they are this inefficient, are they doing a good job? This is the paradox, that it seems easier to take care of 2 or 4 or 7 children, than taking care of one – because the parenting skills have been learned.
I get these same fraud vibrations when I see “judges” managing their caughts incompetently and then asking Government for more money!
Throwing money to beneficiaries and hoping they will do their “jobs” better, is being pretty optimistic – downright foolish actually. Drop these bumbling beneficiaries and select people who can do the job competently at a professional price level. Some people worry more what they get out, than what they put in? It’s best to stay away from these people, as far as possible.
In the time since, I have had the time to check more carefully on the behaviours of familycaught “judges” and IRD-CS. It turned out that my intuition was right. Life is a gamble. Some gambles are much worse than others, so why take the dumb gambles? Don’t go near them!
Why naively expect?
It’s better to find out the truth about what does happen and make your choices from the options that exist in the real world and not the illusions put up in the mythical world of paper legislation. Just get on with it!
I don’t like the unfairness, but why miss out on something because some parts of it are unfair?
Life is too short, to waste it on moaning. (Children’s growing up is even shorter.)
In my opinion, the biggest failing of (spousal and) child support as a broad topic, is familycaught just giving the children to the mother without actually looking into what each of the parents can offer the children. A rote solution isn’t applying wisdom or skill. It is just rubber stamping. We shouldn’t be paying real judge salaries, to “judges” that are no more than rubber stamps. These “judges” are just valueless beneficiaries of Government largesse. These wages may as well be poured down a drain or spent on drugs or prostitutes or overseas holidays for retiring MPs or “judges” incompetence redundancy pay.
Surely real life is making the best of the world that we face, today.
Take responsibility for your own part in all of this.
I saw a truck that told me, “When I work hard, I get lucky!”.
I would add – and nobody can take it away.
Fine print: Except burglars, tax, cs, accidents, mistakes, weather, breakdown, sickness, religion, miscommunications, changing our own mind,…
Give yourself better options, by working for them.
If we come back later and try to improve life – fine, but there is little point in repetitive moaning, while we are missing out and our life is dripping relentlessly away.
We can be confident that these problems will stay with us, while we attack each other in preference to working together? I suggest to support people putting forward worthwhile initiatives.
I acknowledge the pain, but positive change will come after working together, not just bitching.
Apologies about my spitting and hissing. I will clean up the mess.
Cheers, MurrayBacon.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fathers-4-justice-stage-rooftop-protest-at-harmans-home-842776.html
UK Fathers for Justice protest “A father is for life not just for conception”
Where are such protests in NZ ? Why do Kiwi men blithely accept the status quo ? Why is nobody taking non-violent action like this here ? Yes there are spies in the Fathers Groups here and Solicitors’ lookouts reading this (ASSHOLES!), but someone MUST protest, or NOTHING WILL CHANGE !!!!!!!!!
Non-violent protests should be made at NZ Women’s ministers houses like this, and at others’ that threaten us with their bias .
IT IS PUBLICITY THAT WE NEED ABOUT OUR PLIGHT !!!
When I met my husband,he was paying $200 a week for CS.
That was ok,it didn’t bother either of us.We were paying extras on top of that sum,including payments to Kip McGrath to teach his son how to read and write properly(On his mother’s orders)And we bought most of the decent clothes that his children ever owned.
Then we got married and all hell broke loose.
So are you saying Murray that that’s the way life is now?
You saw a truck that told you “when I work hard I get lucky”
I saw a truck that told me “pull over to the kerb when you’re feeling worn out”
I am trying to attack apathy and giving up.
Yes, I do acknowledge that Child Support has a harsh side that most people do get to see. I mentioned some of my experience, I have other complaints too.
I believe that it is important, to try to see all sides and then to act, not just moan.
I cannot change my own experiences, they are history. But I sure do want to see a more workable system in place, before my own children are dragged through the same.
The present system does a lot of harm to good parenting for children. I doesn’t have to be like this.
Fundamentally, it should give incentive to parents, to be good parents, to model sharing and respect, not making agreements knowing full well they will never have to be honoured. The people who wrote the Act put more attention to making it draconian, than to making it fair and workable, to handle the different aspects of everyday life.
On this thread, there is quite a lot of criticism, maybe more destructive than constructive. I encourage people to help Tigerseye, to make a documentary to bring out the practical reality and to propose a system that helps parents to share the costs of caring for children and encourages both parents to sensibly share the tasks and rewards in the heart too.
Best regards, MurrayBacon.
I have already commented on another part of this site, but here is a good place to follow on. My ex lived with me pregnant for 3 weeks. She left and decided to go alone with the baby and her other child. She gets Maternity leave and approx $320 per week, $150 from the ex for the older child and $300 from me due to my high salary and a some holiday pay thrown in for good luck.
My baby has everything. My $300 will pay for the rent and to keep her in the style that she may have had…should she stayed with me. I dont mind paying big money for a 16 year old that will eat you out of house and home….but a 1 week old $300 thank you…2 weeks old another $300 thanks etc….
I want to support my childs needs, a little money for baby, a little to the mother and a little to save. Certainly $300 is supporting the WHOLE household including the rabbit and the cat.
Thomas, Murry, and all,
Anybody paying so called Child Support for honourable reasons is deluded
So called Child Support is about many Govts legally but immorally funding the destruction of Family.
Many Govts simply use mostly Honourable Mens deluded arrogance to redestribute the mighty dollar
Women respond to that redistribution by using YOUR Kids as instruments to what they see as the freedom to a better lifestyle with the bonus of not having to work out the future of THIER kids with THIER kids DAD and the rest of THEIR kids paternal family.
Thus the natural family is destroyed – They probably only have to do this for a few gernerations and men will have no option but to become sperm doners – Even that most enjoyable event will eventually be taken from us
Think again my honourable deluded males
Onward – Jim
Until we have **Equal Parenting** perferably **HandsOnEqualParenting**, as a statute in World-Wide Family law these arguements (Illusions)are futile rambligs giving Govts tools to tighten their grip on their main funders
Or is it until men are prepared to **Equal Parent** their kids inside and outside marriage and fight to maintain that task be it thru so called Child Support, be it Family Court, be it CYFS, be it WINZ, be births deaths and marriges, we remain victums of those who destroy our families
Onward – Jim
Yes Jim is right again.Child Support is not what it seems.The government could not give a fuck about kids being looked after but they are trying to give women crazy amounts of control.I feel completely helpless against and battered by this system which has cheated my kids and I out of so much.
Until you have looked after your kid for 3 years in a row for over 150 days only to be told by IRD you only did it for 139 you do not know what I am talking about.There was a swing of over $50,000 during those 3 years.
Even the start of it was amazing.
My ex applied April 2003 but I was not told till August 2003.So when I cross applied I was already 4 months out of pocket.I was awarded CS in November backdated till August(not April!)then 3 months later was told that because my court order only gave me 5 nights a fortnight it was insufficient.What they neglected to consider was my shared parenting during holidays and the mothers trips overseas(during which time I had the daughter fulltime).
Never underestimate this governments ability to be completely unrealistic and unreasonable.It is with some peace that I write this from foreign lands
The NZ CSA has to be one of the most failed bits of legislation in any democracy.
The majority of people are either unable or unwilling to confirm with it.
If this was any other financial Act it would be scraped as the failure it is. Can you imagine another tax law that the majority of people could not or would not comply with being maintained? This non-compliance increases as the draconian measures to try to force compliance increase.
Even a cursory look at the figures shows that the majority of paying parents could not comply with this Act no matter how much they wanted to. The average level of debt is approaching $10,000 per parent even if spread across all paying parents.
Can you imagine the headlines if the average tax owed was $10,000 per tax payer and increasing? The government would be bankrupt. It wouldn’t be able to balance it’s budget. It would be the greatest civil disobedience programme in NZ history. The NZ dollar would nose dive and inflation would rocket. One would hope it would bring down the government. But since we are talking about fathers it is almost not mentioned. When it is mentioned it is blamed on the fathers not the policy.
I am pretty good at history but I can’t think of a NZ government policy that has been such a complete failure.
So ask yourself. Why doesn’t the media run a story on it?
Could you imagine the media being so hush hush if 130,000 single mothers when on strike? Or if 130,000 Maori had a sit in? Or if 130,000 gays refused to pay tax? But 130,000 fathers drowning in debt and what you hear is Judith Collins saying they should be locked up. At least when there were debtors prisons the people got a court hearing.
The scale of the problem
When the IRD publishes their annual report at the end of this month it is expected that they will report the Child Support debt is larger than any other debt by a significant margin. In IRDs annual report for 2007 it was very discreetly reported that Child Support debt became more than the Total Tax Debt. For June 2007 Net collectable debt was $1,124 million which was only an increase over the past year of $10 million. This figure included overdue student loans. Child Support Debt increases by that amount each month.
At 30 June 2007, total New Zealand child support debt was $1,167.4 million, an increase of $84.0 million from last year[10]. Of the $84.0 million increase in total child support debt, $13.6 million (16%) is assessment and $70.4 million (84%) is penalties. Assessment debt increased by 3.1% in 2007 while penalty debt increased by 11%. This is in spite of debt write offs under the The Child Support Amendment Act 2006.
Child Support Debt increased passed $1.2 billion some months ago.
“10. JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) to the Minister of Revenue: Can he confirm that total child support debt is now over $1.2 billion, including $471.9 million in assessment debt, and how does the level of assessment debt compare with 1999?
Hon PETER DUNNE (Minister of Revenue) : Yes, I can confirm that the member is correct. The level of liable-parent assessment debt in 1999 was $179.2 million. The growth in assessment debt has, however, slowed over the last few years. It was 3.1 percent in the year ended June 2007, which compares with 15.7 percent and 8.1 percent in the years ended 30 June 2005 and 30 June 2006 respectively.”
[19 March 2008 Hansard volume646;Page 15048]
In 1999 there was $179,200,000 debt and 130,068 paying parents. In 2008 the debt is well over $1,200,000 and 124,541 paying parents. If that were to be averaged out over all paying parents the average debt in 1999 was $1,278 and in 2008 it is more than $9,635. Keep in mind that in 1999 there were no debt write offs whereas in 2008 there are partial debt write offs. In other words even if you believe [like Judith Collins] that every paying parent is deliberately refusing to pay child support they are each in debt to about $10,000.
A rational person would at least consider the concept that the policy is flawed. But why be rational when you have a chance bash fathers?
“Judith Collins: Does he agree that the increase in the number of child support debtors since Labour took office and the disgraceful level of debt are because this Government, which he supports, makes it far too easy for 120,000 delinquent parents to walk away from the responsibilities they owe to their children?
Hon PETER DUNNE: It may come as a surprise to the member to know that in 1999 the number of paying parents was 130,068, and in the year ended January 2008 the figure had reduced to 124,541.”
[19 March 2008 Hansard volume646;Page 15048]
Clearly in NZ bashing fathers wins votes. It is no surprise that men of child rearing age are leaving New Zealand at about 500 a week.
Well, Dave,
I agree with all you have said and I’m glad to say that I’m not the media – I’m just one man who has been offered a lot of help by not only the great people on this site but many others in my own circles.
With all the help I’m getting this doco will totally rais eyebrows of the rest of the country that has no idea what is going on right under their noses. Excuse all the facial similies.
If you have a story that should be told, Dave, fill me in on it and you can be one of those that can’t just sit back and let it happen.
The incoming Minister was warned about the rampant failure of the Child Support scheme. The government’s response was to write off some of the debt without addressing the problem. Even this masking of the issue has been a failure.
“Total NZ child support debt $1,167 million Growth in past year $84.0 million Growth in past year (%) 7.8% Assessment debt $456 million Growth in past year $13.6 million Growth in past year (%) 3.1% Penalty debt $711 million Growth in past year $70.4 million Growth in past year (%) 11.0%”
[http://www.ird.govt.nz/aboutir/reports/annual-report/annual-report-2007/part-2/ar-2007-part2-managing-debt-portfolio.html]
According to IRD’s own advice to the Minister at the time, Child Support Debt could become larger than the total Tax Debt within 2 years if recent trends continue. As of 2005 total tax debt reached $1.5 billion. At the same time Child Support debt grew to over $1 billion. Total tax debt varies with the seasons over the year whereas Child Support Debt keeps increasing. This increase of Child Support Debt is accelerating. Child Support debt has grown 400% in only 6 years. The rate of increase continues to rise. Child Support Debt will be larger than Student Debt within 4 years if current trends continue. There are few reasons to think that Child Support debt growth will slow significantly without legislative changes such as debt write-offs, according to the IRDs own advice to the Minister.
“Total child support debt has now passed $1billion. As at 30 June 2005, the level of child support debt had grown to $987 million, 16% more than in 2003–04. Of the total debt, 43% was
assessment arrears and 57% was penalties.34
34 Currently there is no legislative flexibility to deal with the escalation in the level of child support penalties, which adds
considerably to the level of total debt outstanding. Also, the incremental nature of the penalties can act as a disincentive to
paying parents, which can result in them disengaging with the child support system.
NEW ZEALAND INLAND REVENUE – Briefing for the incoming Minister of Revenue – 2005
http://www.ird.govt.nz
Over time we have made good progress in managing our child support responsibilities. As at 30 June 2005, we have collected 86.3% of all child support assessed since the programme began in 1992.
However, the present level of debt presents a significant risk to public perception in regard to the
effectiveness of the child support programme. Funding has been provided in the 2004 and 2005
budgets to address the debt issue through administrative initiatives and these are now gaining
traction.
Child support legislative change
Legislative changes crucial to supplement administrative improvements were proposed in the Child
Support Amendment Bill (No. 4). The Bill has lapsed and public confidence in the child support
programme will continue to erode unless you reinstate the Bill. A key component of the Bill is intended
to bring non-compliant parents back into the child support system by providing incentives for them to
reduce their outstanding child support debt through pro-rata write-off of incremental penalties for
parents who meet their current liability and keep to their arrangement to repay arrears.”
Some Maori policy advisers are trying address the real issues but they are lonely voices:
“As well as considering the needs of children, government policy should encourage whanau development by encouraging fathers to become involved with their children, Ms Clarke says.
She says the current child support regime actively discourages fathers from being involved with their children. The majority of child support-paying parents earn less than $30,000 per year and about 25 percent of paying parents are beneficiaries.
“It is easy to see why there is pressure on mothers not to name the father of their children.”
She says a first step would be amending the Child Support Act to ensure children receive some direct benefit from the liable parent contribution.”
[April 2003, Kathrine Clarke, Maori Caucus Public Health Association Phone: 025 930 392, http://www.pha.org.nz/
As far back as 2005 the IRD was advising the incoming Minister that the CSA needed to be scraped and replaced with a fairer and more workable system like that adopted in Australia.
“NEW ZEALAND INLAND REVENUE – Briefing for the incoming Minister of Revenue – 2005
http://www.ird.govt.nz
53
As part of our international relationships, we keep a watching brief on developments in other
jurisdictions, for example, the Australian Government recently commissioned a Ministerial task force to
review the Australian child support programme. Recommendations in the report dated May 2005 are
presently being considered by the Australian Government. Given the close nature of our relationship
with Australia, we will need to consider making changes to the New Zealand system once the
Australian Government have made final decisions.”
This system has now been rolled out and applied throughout Australia even though Australia has a far more complex political system than NZ.
Yes I have a story to tell. I am posting this stuff here as reference for your doco so you have some hard facts and figures with respected references. It is better here because others can use it too.
It’s late I’ll tell my story another time.
Thanks Dave,
I appreciate everything you can give me.
I have started up a new site which you can all find at
http://www.the-csa-files.webs.com
Hi TigersEye, Well I have just spent the last couple of hours reading this (ok.. skim reading towards the end!).
I have been keen to do something about this legalised extortion for the 4 years I have been paying willy tax. However, during this time I have been fighting false claims of domestic violence, feeling helpless, suicidal, being made redundant, re-establishing myself, borrowing thousands from my parents in the UK so I can survive. The list goes on and on.. All the IRD say is do an Admin Review.. Well excuse me working on most days from 8am through to midnight, but I get very little time to complete confusing paperwork that mentions formulas that are not in the public domain. Why is it that the ex could walk into WINZ claim bennefits and yet I have to jumps through rings of fire and courts hearings to try and reduce my willy tax to an amount where I can afford to get out of constant debt. I could go on for ages…
Anyway.. I am keen to help and I am going to try and find the time somehow to go through 4 years or paperwork very soon as it look like i’m going to have to survive on $50 a week for the next 3 months… and try to complete the paper to go through an ‘Admin Review’(I Wish they would review their own legally extortionate policies).
Why not document this new admin review from start to finish? I read here that you can’t publish details, but surely you can change names and do things for others going through this injustice to fathers (admin reviews). If enough people stood up and took action, what are they going to do. They are only trying to protect themselves and are clearly not interested in the repercussion for the NCP & their children.
I also have some very good ideas that I believe will make a huge impact to voicing the problems raised here. However, from what I have read here I won’t be posting details. I’ll send you and email and I’ll be happy to help if I can.
TigersEye,
I have just revisited your opening statement above – I take my hat off to you for your idea – I take my hat off to you for taking the knocks that those of us with initiative all get
I for one begun my fight with so called Child Support during Oct95 – My Sons Mother had decided while pregnant that we were not to be together OR had she planned to secure a lifestyle and once secure with the help of NZ Law and Social Policy used my Son as collateral
I am not sure to this day – However she has WON and he has lost either way.
To top it off we are practicing Church goers and thus she a so called CHRISTian – One would expect a high degree of integrity from a CHRISTian and that is why I got involved with her in the first place. It was ME that got the hard time from several churches NOT her – Even the church is rife with Sexism
I got my debt call from so called Child Support as I say in Oct95 and went into battle straight away – I admit emotionally distraught – grieving the coned relationship and the capturing of my essence, my Son by the women I dearly loved – Totally let down by most local CHRISTians – Totally ABUSED by what I thought were the pillars of our society – The Church – The Govt – WINZ (DPB) – so called Child Support – The Family CAUGHT (thanks to MBacon)- Many in society I did not know – I was a mess
I sort counselling to attempt to maintain some sanity and the ability to work – With the help of the very fine CHRISTian counsellor I soon discovered Shore Fathers http://www.shorefathers.org.nz – Essentially Men http://essentiallymen.net and an excellent lawyer who set a CAPPS order in place when I discovered my Sons Mother and my Son were about to disappear to Aussie with the support of her family most of which lived in Aus at the time
Child Support assed me on the GROSS of my Taxi turnover – The DPB funded ALL costs for MOTHERS destruction of what I thought was our family with plenty left over for a good lifestyle – I paid for the lawyer, I paid so called Child Support for, the church that my Sons Mother went to helped hide my Son as I sort to see him and on it goes.
I will continue if you are interested but for now I am off to work
Onward – Jim
Hi Jim,
Please do continue….
I haven’t spent much time on the doco in the last week as I have been recovering from an assault. Thank you all for your stories, keep them coming. Also, if you have any sugestions for the doco I’ll be happy to hear them.
There is a lot of info that I’m slowly getting through but there is still a long way to go.
Jim continues
Working my Taxi business and eventually finding Men’s Centre North Shore, working with Jim Bagnall, protesting about the issues as I discovered them connected to Family Court, Child Support, WINZ etc, gaining access to my Son and eventually Equal Shared Parenting in time kept me busy and mildly content – I gained Taxi contracts with preschools, Kindys, primary schools, IHC, Colmar Brunton, Chelsea Sugar, NZPost delivering children to and from their homes and/or after schools and had my Son in the taxi with me much of the time and adults after the Kid work was done – Some FemiNazi’s screamed blue murder many others where complimentary and we steadily built a huge taxi business with one van and three drivers working it 24X7 except for maintenance
During this time I gave up on lawyers and represented myself with a few fumbling attempts and much guidance from those then at Men’s Centre
We met regularly with Child Support and David Udy himself for several years and seemed to make some progress
Then I got sick heart and reflux hassles knocked me for a six and I had no choice but to enter hospital and eventually ended up with seven stents and tons of pills daily – With much help from the medical fraternity and many friends at Men’s Centre and 2 very fine taxi drivers who are still close friends I never missed one day of our week about equal Parenting.
However recovery was only in part and I had to go onto a Single Persons Invalid benefit to give me a chance at full recovery which has not yet come to pass.
WINZ forced me to destroy my taxi business before they would support me and thus all three of us lost our jobs and my taxi business was destroyed because as I simply could not continue in it without working in it – We latter discovered that one can be set aside of their business in these instances as long as one does not take reward from the business – How stupid – The 2 others were more than capable of continuing without me and I would of had an income to return to as I made progress health wise – WINZ have never taken responsibility for the ignorance displayed by their employees at that time
Dr Cullen took pity on us a few years back and since then I have received 1/2 of family care from IRD – Try bring a child up one $41-0 a week.
WINZ to this day do not recognise our Equal Parenting Orders and thus I receive NOTHING from WINZ to feed and Father my Son the one week in 2 that he is with me – This has steadily depleted me of all I have and thus the Ration Shed which meets the needs of many suffering the evils of NZLaw and Social Policy.
Today I am Father in time only because WINZ give ALL NZGovt funds to Parent our Son to Mother – yet she does less than 1/2 the job and pays as few bills as possible – I fund my portion of the time I have with my Son from my Single persons Invalids Benefit and a little help from those who recognise the importance of what I do with/for him
Mother has won – My Son and I have lost as I have no funds to make MALE choices with –
The story will continue
Onward
Ration Shed – Jim
RE #120 The church,,my ex was and still is a good christian women ??? yeh right ! the church she is in has to this day help one of it’s congregation who in prison at present for ripping off the ird , he’s business as an accountant went to a cemertry and wrote down all the childrens birth and death date’s and claimed gst for them.
The church just claims he was led by the devil and he is a good man and will support him during prison and when he get’s out,,nice guy.(wanker).he was giving the chirch 10% of his earnings and the ird did not try and claim that back as ripped of money from the dead.
This church also runs a home care service in which my ex work’s in, she is the pay clerk !!! any way this home care worker was going to old people’s home’s and cleaning them , a couple of old people trusted this person to go up the shops and purchase milk, bread, butter etc, etc, but in most cases the home care worker had the old persons credit card and help herself to these people’s bank accounts.
This person was caught and dismissed from employment,, the media got wiff of it but the church denied any connection with this person,,,(excellent).
But the same church had it’s own lawyer who is a good christian man and my ex used he’s services to get a protection order on me and destroy my life and my children’s live’s for 10 year’s, i meet this lawyer many year’s latter and asked him why he done what he did ?? he said he was helping a good christian lady and friend out, i told him that may god strike me down dead if i lie, but i did nothing to my ex,, to deserve the protection order,and it almost destroyed me and my children over the years and that my ex was just using it as a weapon,,,he just said he was doing his job as a lawyer of the courts,,bullshit .
My ex also has a friend inside WINS and if you think the IRD and WINS are a night mare ,just think of the damage one can do to the other partner if they have a friend in the department and give the other all the info they need to totaly destroy the other parent, i am still fighting thou and will not give in as i love my sons and will not give up on them,, yes ex’s use their children as pawn chips to bargin with the IRD and WINS to suck as much as they can out of the other carring parents,,when will it stop ,,?who knows,, cheers Mark a father who has and always will be there for he’s children.
Australia – Comments on the Australian Child Support Changes.
Thanks to John Flanagan, the Deputy Registered Officer, Non-Custodial
Parents Party (Equal Parenting) http://ncpp.xisle.info
We have the facts to add to our resent perceived discussions Re
Australian so called Child Support
Onward – Jim
“““““““`
Hi Jim
Mark Bourne has asked for a few comments on the changes to the child
support system.
In summary, almost no one is happy with the changes.
Neither the custodial parents nor the non-custodial parents are
certainly happy with the changes.
The only ones who are happy with the changes are the 4,000 odd employees
of the Child Support Agency. This is because these bureaucrats will have
more resources and more power.
The changes have been sold to the Australian Government. This is on the
basis that it will save the Government money. However this is an
illusion. This is because the punitive action that has been legislated
for, will no doubt result in even less child support collected.
One billion Australian dollars is “owed” in outstanding child support as
at 1 June 2008.
As a result, more non-custodial parents will be out of work (currently
about 45 per cent) and less taxes will be paid.
The changes were designed by the Child Support Policy Branch of the
Department of Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs
(FACSIA).
Patrick Parkinson signed off on the report prepared by the Child Support
Policy Branch
The Australian Child Support Scheme is fully funded by deductions from
the custodial parents’ family tax benefit payments. This is in the order
of AUS $450 million.
Patrick Parkinson said in a Senate hearing last year that there were
going to be reductions in child support payments. However this would be
counter-balanced by an increase in family tax benefits paid to the
custodial parents (that the non-custodial parents lose from 1 July
2008).
Parkinson did not highlight that the custodial parents pay for the
running of the Child Support Scheme. This is through deductions of 50
cents in the dollar to family tax benefit payments to the custodial
parents. Half of any increase in family tax benefit payments will go
back to the Government.
The main reason for the apparent decrease in child support, that
Parkinson referred to, is that there is a 24 per cent reduction in child
support. This is when the contact is above 14 per cent (1 day per week).
This theoretical reduction is illusionary.
1. I am sure that when the custodial parent realises this reduction
applies, she or he will reduce contact to below 14 per cent.
2. As from 1 July 2009, the CSA will include salary sacrifice and
investment losses back into the new formula. This will significantly
increase theoretical income (in the short term).
3. As from 1 July 2008, the CSA has also changed the definition of
income. This is to increase the income of both parents. This increases
the cost of the child and therefore the child support. For example,
fringe benefits will have an inbuilt tax factor of 49 per cent added
into the incomes of both parents (which the parent does not receive).
Depending on how much fringe benefits the parents receive from their
employer, this 49 per cent factor may well result in the parents’
theoretical income being greater than actual income! This will have an
impact from 1 July 2008. The non-custodial parent will no doubt take
action to reduce any fringe benefits that he or she may receive.
At the same time, the custodial parent will only receive 50 per cent of
the family tax benefit payments that the father would have normally
received. Therefore this increase will not be as great as what Patrick
Parkinson intimated to the Senate.
The CSA will now have more resources because they have more deductions
from the Family Tax Benefit payments.
The CSA will also have more legislative power. This is because of the
changes to the legislation that the the Child Support Policy Branch has
manoeuvred through Senate Committee hearings and through the Australian
Parliament. For example, the CSA will have a greater ability to make a
registrar-initiated assessments.
The whole problem simply has gotten worse. Non-custodial parents will
simply dig themselves in deeper. No one wins (other than the CSA as
noted above)
The Government has not solved the problem. The solution is with both
parents being involved in the decision-making process. This is without
the involvement of the Government.
Our Government has not realised this yet.
Regards
John
John Flanagan,
Deputy Registered Officer,
Non-Custodial Parents Party (Equal Parenting).
http://ncpp.xisle.info
““““““““““““““““““
Onward
Ration Shed – Jim
http://ration-shed.blogspot.com
Hi all for now my name is H. I’ve had about 8yrs experience dealing with FC CS lawyers; custody orders; reveiws; reciporcal agreements between Au and NZ; CSA assessments and review processes to challenge amounts deducted by IRD/Aussie debt collectors and I’m still of the belief that reciporcal agreement was enable to actually help authentic partner who struggle to maintain your childs well-being however, there are those out there like my ex-wife who see this as an opportunity to exploit a weakness.
In short my ex-wife and I are both professionals and earn decent salaries. My ex was finding it difficult financially to support our son whilst he was in my custody. My older children asked that I show some compassion to which I agreed but if I cancelled CS my ex-wife would do the same and this would be written in an iron clad order from FC she smiled and felt happy I just wanted a life which no longer invovled my ex-wife. Now bear in mind I had custody of my son since he was 8yrs old. He wanted to spend time with his mum which was cool and he left me to live with his mum at age of 14yrs. My son now lives with his mum he’s now going on 17yrs has a job in the mines. My ex kept the order boundaries etc…and Everything went fine until I started purchasing a vehicle; house and put on a 21st for my oldest son jesus i even invited and paid for my ex-sister inlaw and her hubbies night out and stay in a motel
Do you know the cow went and rang my ex-wife told her I must be made of money and my ex-wife needed to get her share It wasn’t long after that when I recieved notification that my ex-wife had filed for CS in Aussie. I laughed and told this Aussie woman that I had a legal order which states clearly what my ex and I decided on. CSA rep informed me that CSA would consider the order but advised me the courts don’t have juridiction over claims for CSA in other words anyone can still apply for child support even though there’s a legal order involved. It’s a bit of a loop hole which some people exploit. So my ex-wife got away with paying child support to our IRD and due to loop hole went outside of the order making it possible for her to claim support.
The assessment process on how they asertain how much you support you will pay, will amaze you. There’s a questionaire with 17 questions if you don’t meet criteria of one question you go to the next question etc…I didn’t meet many criteria therefore CSA basically f***ked me good. The main question which is designed to basically say,”if your debt has no direct bearing on your sons welfare please omit” so anything e.g. my 75yr old mother living with me or my oldest son whose is having difficulty with his young family; or my mortage or car repayments cost of living here in NZ etc… are class as, NOT HAVING ANY direct affect on my son. Recently my son has gained employment and has been earning a living for over 1 month now. I’ve had no notification or CSA payments haven’t been stopped, why? Because my ex-wife hasn’t told CSA because she feels my son may not like the job and therefore she wants to toy with the idea of employment just incase working isn’t for him. I’ve asked CSA to explain they say it’s a matter for the ex-wife to just phone them and they will cancel CSA but she won’t So I asked why? no one will give me answers just, I’m sorry but we can’t give you that info but please continue to hand over $400 per week and smile when you do it please digger. I’m annoyed because I have no way of knowing what I’m paying for? Is it my ex-wifes mortgage? perhaps another car or expensive wine collection perhaps? I honestly could tell you.
My son and I have always spoke to each other he has told me to tell CSA to stop taking CSA from me and I’ve passed his wishes on only to hear, No way mate your ex-wife only one who can stop your payments. I’ve told CSA about my sons job only to hear, Noway mate only your ex-wife can cancel CSA. Then my question was why hasn’t she? Isn’t that fraud? hmmm!
Listen I have no faith in the current infra-structure because it’s Aussie owned and Aussie measurements. Jesus christ atleast you get to see the faces of hookers before they f*** you. There is no personal contact whatsoever in this process it’s just STFU and pay your money.
Lol any help?
H, you have been royally screwed.
What kind of imbicile drafted your “iron clad” agreement?
That is the place to seek your redress.
Your ex is just doing what she is entitled to do.
If you used a lawyer then complain to the Law Society for the imbicile’s complete lack of NZ law (and international Haugue Law) and i suggest you intiate a private prosecution. Alternatively take him to the disputes Tribunal although there your maximum will be about 1 years CS but the moral victory may taste sweet.
If you want more direct advice, talk to Scrap or myself allan@uof.org.nz
Most lawyers are complete novices in the Family Court and have no understanding of Family Law. Be careful who advises you.
Allan
Dear H,
Do you have the Court Order?
Kind Regards
Paul Catton
East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
(09)271 3020
#126 Allan, your comment is essentially correct, but I believe that you may have misread the causes. My opinion is:
In areas of “honest law”, any competent legal worker can look up Nexis Lexis or ???, the old names were Butterworths and Brookers. Then by reading the legislation and advice, they can confidently step in and handle legal issues, well outside their personal experience.
Interestingly, when legal workers do this for issues that will be argued and decided in the familycaught, they frequently seem to come spectacularly totally unstuck!
I attribute this “surprise” to the irrelevance and misleading nature of published “judgements” and “legislation”, compared to what actually seems to pass in the dreamworld of the familycaught. The “judgements” and “legislation” relating to the familycaught are just “marketing tools” to suck in innocent customers, who haven’t done their homework. Despite what they say, “judgements” for publication are only those that convey the marketing image that suits these “judges”.
This isn’t just a matter of experienced legal workers fucking up work for their paying customers. The worst stories in this vein relate to cases involving these legal worker’s own children. This appears to show that when dropped into the familycaught, otherwise skilled and competent legal workers can come every bit as unstuck, as any self representing parent!
To me, this seems to imply that the familycaught has strayed far far far from the legislation and degenerated to a self-congratulatory self-referential world, where weighing of evidence is incompetent, prejudiced and manipulated, to corrupt at worst.
Principles of what cares for children and what damages children appear to be sacrificed, to putting parents into such a position that the more financially successful parent is extorted/pressured to pay for an appeal, to try to obtain just the lowest tolerable standard of protection for their children.
Case management is disposed towards maximising the number of “hearings” (aka featherbedding), rather than honouring the Care of Children Act’s requirement for appropriately quick disposition of disputes. A good example, is calling for a psychologist report, when none is warranted. It is just screwing wasted money out of the Government and taxpayer.
These problems in the familycaught can be repaired in weeks, when the appropriate actions are taken. This will only happen when politicians accept the responsibility for supervising the familycaught, which hasn’t been addressed within the “judicial” profession, through the last 28 years. I realise that this seems to be a breach of constitutional convention. I am only suggesting this, due to the vacuum of management from within the “judicial” hierarchy. It does bring out the point, that our constitution does not provide effective management of conflicts of interest involving “judges” and this problem requires urgent (and successful) attention from our legislators.
Our children do deserve familycaught services that meet minimum safe standards and at a cost that meets true professional standards.
In the meantime, only gamble in familycaught, with spare money or children, or wives you want to lose.
The familycaught mainly hurts those who take it too seriously, so have a sense of humour about it!
Cheers, MurrayBacon.
An Update today I recieved a call from IRD about 4.30pm this afternoon June a team leader dealing with discruntled paying parent …myself asked me to contact our international dept which deals with issues paying parents might have.
I thanked her and stated no thank you June she asked me why? I said because I’ve had 8yrs experience of dealing with lawyers, child pyscologists, IRD caseworkers, CSA caseworkers and I probably know more about Australian Child Support than all of you put together e.g. what’s time frame of child support in WA? June aaaahhh I think it’s same as ours hence reciporcal arrangement. My answer no June in NZ it’s 19yrs old in Aussie (WA) it’s 18yrs old not the same June but never mind June I to didn’t know this until someone started taking my money then yes i decided I must know why, when, what, and how these people untilised my working dollars. June said I was probably right.
June then told me a letter written by my son along with a supporting letter from his employer attesting to the fact he has casual employment (rostered fulltime) with my details D.O.B CS reference number,tax code details and name along with his details exactly as above SIGNED in his hand sent to CSA should do the trick. It then gets CSA to ask my ex-wife hmmmmm why has your son sent in this extensive information and you haven’t alerted us to any such change in his circumstances?
Perhaps we need to take a closer look…
So yes everyone I’ve sent my son the necessary details and hopefully there will be success.
I must add if this does end I still want to carry on the fight for a review of current practice model etc… for all the other paying parents who are treated like criminals
#128
I seem to remeber an editorial in the esteemed publication “NZ Lawyer” saying exactly the same thing. The Fc is a joke, it makes arbitary judgments, breaches natural justice and is an embarresment to the legal “profession”.
Hookers are more professional!
Iv paid 16 year and not bin able to see my kids becouse she gt all doped up and here mom took the kids and left the state there is very much a need for change!!!!!!!!