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Sat 23rd February 2008

Child Support

Filed under: Child Support — bobspong @ 8:08 pm

Hi there,

I have some issues around Child Support and wanted to know if there was anyone out there who could offer me some advice.

I have an shared care agreement with my ex 50/50 but are getting stung quite heavily on Child support payments by IRD.

I earn considerably more than my ex but it appears she has reduced her hours of work so the ammount I pay via off setting contines to increase.

My ex and I are also supposed to split all child care costs although I have not recieved any compensation from her in over a year?

What to do?

Bob

66 Responses to “Child Support”

  1. Paul M says:

    i don’t know what you can do, but as you see from the many comments here, others share the same problem.

  2. Karen says:

    Hi there

    can anyone help here- We are looking to go to IRD for an admin review. Below are the 2 grounds we believe we may have a case????

    Ground 8 The child support assessment does not take into account the income, earning capacity, property or financial resources of either parent or the child.
    Ground 9 You are the paying parent and the assessment does not take into account that you have previously made payments, transfers or property settlements for the benefit of the child.

    Ground 8 – as we now have 50/50 shared care and believe IRD should now look at the earning capacity of the other parent. Currently she works minimal hours and we feel now that we have them week about there is no reason that fulltime employment can not be obtained!

    Secondly Ground 9 – when my husband left she continued to live in the matrimonial home for a yr. In this time he paid for all expenses so the children would not be disadvantaged. Mtg,Food,Power,Ins so on and so on. (She was working as a hairdresser from home at the time and did not contribute a thing for the year) This accumulated to about $30k. Then the house was sold and she received 50% of the sale proceeds ($50k) and also $50k from my husband’s super scheme. We invested the $50k from his super scheme into buying some property for the benefit of the children when we are gone. The other $50k towards our house.
    Does anyone know if we have a case for Ground 9 as far as 1) we made payments of $30k so it would not affect the children and 2) we have invested into property for the chidlren future benefit.

    Could I go straight to the Ombudsman or do i need to go thru IRD first??

    Any help would be appreciated.

  3. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    “Secondly Ground 9”

    Where, by virtue of special circumstances, the formula assessment of child support would be unjust and inequitable as a result of any payments and any transfer or settlement of property previously made by the liable parent to the child, the qualifying custodian, or to any other person for the benefit of the child, a departure order from the formula assessment of child support may be established.

    Important things to know

    Ongoing payments have been established as a ground for a departure order

    Payments must provide some future financial security and must be specifically for the benefit of the child.

    When money paid does matter – if its a while ago chances for departure are virtually 0

  4. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    “Ground 8”

    Where, by virtue of special circumstances, the child support would result in an unjust or inequitable determination of the level of financial support to be provided by the liable parent, because of the income, earning capacity, property, and financial resources of either parent or of the child, a ground for departure from the formula assessment of child support may be established.1

    Important things to know

    Difficult ground for a paying parent to succeed on.

    Need to conclusively show assets that are not producing income that can produce income.

    Income of custodial parents new partner cannot be taken into account. (No duty to maintain!)

    Income of Liable Parents new partner can be taken into account

    If a parent has deliberately reduced their income to avoid paying cs potential earning power can be taken into account.

    Note that “child care” by the custodial parent is seen a legitimate reason for not working or working less hours and not a deliberate attempt to pay less.

    Opens a can of worms as financial information needs to be disclosed as
    this this ground applies to economic matters only.

  5. Karen says:

    Youve got to be joking Scrap…What a load of bull we are up against…so my income could be taken into account because Im married to her ex – however she may get a partner (and could be a millionaire) however his income wont be taken into account….

    We know for a fact she is doing ‘cashies’ (hairdressing) at home – but how is one ever to prove that????Her earning capacity is far greater than she leads IRD to believe… As far as property transfers if we were to put the property into a trust and the children are the beneficiaries is that enough???? I know you have to pay penalties if you default your c/support pymts but surely they cant get blood from a stone????

  6. rosie says:

    Hi Karen
    You could turn your house into a B&B every second week as a way of producing more income.
    Or a brothel may please the IRD even more lol.

  7. Richard says:

    I want to make a complaint about the lawyer for my child, he has not told the court what the child wants, the child is 14, this has been going on for the last two years, during this time I have not been able to see my child because the lawyer said he didn’t want to see me, when the child went before the Judge he told the Judge he did want to see me, there are tickets booked for him next holidays now, I still wish to complain about this lawyer so he doesn’t do it t o some one else’s child, he refuses to give me a copy of my child’s file, I don’t want to bring it before the Judge as there is too much there already

  8. Allan Harvey says:

    Richard,

    Flick me an e-mail and I can help you through this complaint. Probably it won’t do any good but we need to try to keep them on the straight and narrow.
    allan.harvey@xtra.co.nz

    Allan

  9. artemis says:

    Hi Karen, re the hairdressing cashies – what if you had notes of the reasons you think the cashies are taking place, and took these along to the review. The more detailed the better – eg salon style drier permanently set up, hairdressing materials laid out, dates and times of people seen coming and leaving with a ‘do’. If these ‘not quite facts’ were laid out, then the reviewer may ask hard questions and maybe also pass the information on for a possible audit. (Not sure if they can do that.) In any case, it may be sufficient to raise the issue with as much detail as possible, to at least generate some doubt and make the hearing rather uncomfortable for the ex. It’s not a court so legal standards of proof won’t be required.

  10. Allan Harvey says:

    Hi Karen & Artemis,
    A review officer does not need to have proof of cashies etc. He just need good grounds for suspicion and can set a “Deemed” income sum for Child Support purposes. A Child Suport review officer has much much more powers than an IRD audit and they are already extensive.
    Allan

  11. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi there, My wife hasnt been allowed to see her children since a week old but yet has paid child support the past 12 years

  12. Scott Mansbridge says:

    Hi, I am currently engaged in hammering at grounds 8 and 9 over a settlement of the family home following my marriage break up. Thanks for your comments guys they are helpful. I am also having a go at ground 5 on the basis that I live and work in Taranaki and my kids are based in Nelson but still manage shared care. Any advice here would be helpful.
    Cheers

  13. Tim Hunt says:

    I dont know why they really call it child support, it should be Spousal maintenance. I have an interim shared care arrangement where I have my son 4 days a week.I have been left with the financial burden of 2 mortgages (one’s a failed investment property I’m trying to sell), ongoing lawyer’s fees as I’ve had to defend everything from a fabricated domestic violence charge to a recent allegation of sexual molestation against our son, lawyer’s fees associated with pursuing a protection order against her because of her continually aggression and harassment, plus the likes of loss of income and the effect this whole drama has had on me(I’m self employed too), and I’ve been paying all childcare as she’s refused to contribute, despite her getting employment. I really have no money left over, I’m struggling to get by, yet she’s off for another overseas trip next month. I am about to apply for a review, but don’t know whether it’s really going to make much difference. Financially I’d be better off if she had our son fulltime, but it would not be in his best interests at all as she’s really mentally unstable, but then how do you prove that….

  14. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi Tim, i really feel for you, maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea taking her to court for full custody, by paying all the financials you are a solo father anyways, and people that make up shit about others would have to be mentally unstable but i myself feel their lives are so damn lonely and boring they have to interfere with other peoples

  15. Tim Hunt says:

    Thanks for your comment Hadi! I have been toying with that suggestion, but unfortunately I feel it’s in my son’s best interests to have shared custody, as a lot of the grief has been really to do with how she feels about me, even though it was her who cheated and left me, but I wouldn’t have her back! It’s just that she’s been using my son as a bit of a pawn in the whole saga… hopefully in a few months things will settle down!

  16. Rebecca says:

    Hi

    I am writing with regard to a situation that we are finding ourselves in at the present moment. I think this is an issue that need addressing, it is just where or who do we go to.

    My husband has a 16 year old daughter to a previous marriage. The relationship broke up when his daughter was 9 years old, my Husband and I married 3 years after, as did his ex wife who remarried around the same time.The problem is..His Daughter decided not to go back to school after last years school year and has been working at the local supermarket, We did not find this out until Yesterday (8.04.08) although my husband text his daughter a couple of weeks ago to see how she was and asked how school and work was going, he got a reply of its all going fine. No mention of leaving school. Yesterday he rang his ex wife to ask why his daughter was working so much and still be able to attend school, hense to be told she wasnt at school anymore.

    My husband has a private agreement with his ex wife regarding child support that he has never been late with or ever questioned, he pays $130.00 a week into her account.

    Yesterday my Husband asked for copies of statements of how many hrs a week his daughter is working, because he suspects she is doing over the 30 hrs a week she is allowed to do and still be liable for child support payments, only to be told it was none of his business!! Which also makes us believe she is doing more than 30 hrs but cant go anywhere to get proof, privacy act and all, we couldnt even ring the school to find out if she was still attending, again it comes down to the privacy act!! Paying parents seem to be made to pay but aren’t allowed information, and when IRD says it comes down to the parents being honest with each other, whats one to do when one doesnt know how to tell the truth if it bit her on the ar*e.

    His ex wife has a child to her current husband and another due next mnth, She slipped up yesterday by telling my husband that she makes their daughter pay board from her work income as well as the child support my husband pays, but now that my husband asked her about this today she has backtracked and said she didnt tell him that, She also said that their daughter wants to go flatting with friends but has been told she isnt moving out of home yet.

    My Husband and I know that his ex wife is not using the child support for his daughter but toward the rest of her family which we don’t feel we should have to pay for. They are her current husbands children, not my husbands, He also has 2 children in the UK to his previous wife which he doesnt pay a cent to because NZ IRD don’t chase it up.

    His ex also told him that the supermarket offered his daughter more hrs at work and his daughter turned it down, we think only because her mother knows she will lose $130.00 a week, and who would want to give that up for doing nothing??

    I rang IRD this morning for advice only to be told they can’t look into what she is earning because my husband and ex wife have a private agreement, after talking to a IRD representive and telling her the situation she told me that unless he went back to IRD to pay through them, she can’t tell us any information, she basically told me that it totally sucked what was happening,and we were stuck between a rock and a hard place. She told me that we can request to go through IRD to make the payments, but on my husbands yearly income would then be paying $185 per week instead, which we can’t afford at all and to just basically shut up and keep paying the $130.

    Im sorry but I think this is totally unfair because,

    His daughter was offered more hrs!! and turned them down, we think because her mother told her daughter she can’t because she would lose the child support.

    His daughter has no reason/responsabilities not to accept the extra hrs.

    I work under 30 hrs (I have children at home which my Husband also supports) and I don’t get a top up of $130 per week from any of my parents!!

    I don’t think it is giving our children incentive to work 40 hours a week like most people have to, to make ends meet. They think it is ok to be able to leave school and hang out on the streets because my parent is still paying. When i left school I know my Fathers child support stopped straight away, and I had to get a job, but kids are not being made to do that these days.

    I also spoke to a lawyer today who told me that by law no parent has custody of a child after the age of 16 they can legally do as they choose but yet paying parents have to pay until the day they turn 19 if the child so chooses not to work??? I don’t have a problem with paying child support until that age if the child is still at school but why should we support them when they think they are adult enough to go into the work force and should be supporting themselves!!

    Over the years from seeing bits and pieces through news acticles etc…It seems to me that the paying parent really seems to get the raw end of the deal all the time and it is about time things changed.

    I also have a friend going through the same thing with her husbands child from a previous relationship. His son refused to go back to school but is too lazy to get off his backside and wrk so his mother keeps getting child support from them to raise her new family.Her husband has been in touch with IRD because his son lives with them 50% of the time but he was told he still has to pay his ex child support.

    Where do they dig these rules from and why is it that hard working, honest people alway seem to get the raw end of a deal, yet some who sit on their butts and keep getting pregnant so they don’t have to go to work (because my husbands ex wife has not worked since the day they married!!!)

    I know there is alot of people out there that have their children in their care and get bad deals as well, but they seem to have so many more rights than the paying parent, I can’t see why if someone has to pay support for a child that they don’t get the same information/rights as the parent who has the child in their care.

    I am hoping someone out there can help us because all we seem to be hearing is Yes your situation sucks but there is nothing we can do, KEEP PAYING!!

  17. Jen says:

    Hallelujah!!! It is good to know there are others out there like us. My partner has a 16 year old who has chucked in school and is not working. She went back to live with her mother because she didn’t want to be disciplined by use. Her mother has requested child support and we are fighting it. I even sent a copy of the review request to our MP who at present is a government MP, and I am sure he wants to keep his seat this election.

    As for going to the school, I rang the school and they advised us that his daughter had requested a leaving certificate. The schools have to send in their roll numbers every 1st march for funding, and they aren’t allowed to include children who are not attending. They should bne able to advise when the child left school if the paying parent was included in the child’s personal details.

    My parner’s daughter has a half brother who is 19 and chucked in a full-time supermarket job over 6 months ago and hasn’t worked since. He is on the dole and there is obviously no pressure on him to get a job. Thing is, he is quite intelligent, both kids are, but they are just lazy.

  18. Molly says:

    Hi Rebecca,
    Your husband could phone IRD Child Support and advise them that his daughter is now working and that he believes it is full-time (30 hrs is full-time) and that he would like IRD to look into this as it may affect his child support payments and leave it at that. I would advise that you don’t discuss anything further or go into great detail. As his daughter will no doubt have an IRD number herself. The difficulty with private aggreements of child support is that if there is any situation like yours, IRD will not take responsibility for sorting this out as it was a “Private Arrangement”.
    Good luck!

  19. rosie says:

    My husband had an admin review a few weeks ago to try to recover some of the CS money that he had paid doubly for.Once in a private agreement and secondly through IRD.The IRD had apologised to him for not following the correct procedures when his ex applied for CS through them,and with a little bit of pressure from the Ombudsman’s Office,they reimbursed him with half of the money that he had paid twice.He was advised by the IRD,Peter Dunne and the Ombudsman’s Office to apply for an admin reiew to get the rest of the money back.
    The review officer (female) sided with his ex because she said he had got away with reduced payments in the last year of his private agreement,when in actual fact,he had been paying her more than she would have received that year if she had gone through IRD.
    He sent them a letter of complaint and received their reply yesterday…..
    “Dear Mr….(Money Tree)
    I have reviewed the administrative review file along with the decision and I am satisfied that the review officer’s recommendation was reasonable in the circumstances.The review officer can only make a call based on the legislation.Section 206 of the Child Support Act 1991 restricts the commissioner from taking into account any payments you may have made to the other party.Based on this,the review officer made a decision they were entitled to make and one which fits the legislation.
    Yours faithfully
    Mr….(Screw them for all you can get)”
    Here is section 206…
    “Direct payment to payee.
    When a payee has received,from a person who in relation to that payee is a liable person,an amount intended by both the liable person and the payee to be paid in complete or partial satisfaction of a liability of the liable person to pay financial support under this Act,the Commissioner shall disregard that payment for the purposes of this Act and the amount so paid shall not be credited by the Commissioner against the liability of the liable person to pay financial support under this Act.”
    This is exactly what they said.
    No wonder they couldn’t account for the missing 600 million dollars.
    Night night,it’s time to join the queue flocking to Australia.

  20. rosie says:

    Here’s something else about the IRD that really stinks.
    When my husband asked for all the information that was given to his ex wife from his IRD files,he was given all the info along with his ex wife’s IRD number.
    When I rang this person at the IRD,I was told that he didn’t work there anymore.

  21. whanga says:

    Rosie you are so right about going to Australia.I got out some time ago just before getting endless letters from IRD such as your one did my head in.I just feel so cheated and let down by all the 38 IRD Child Support case officers I have had.Not one has done anything resembling a normal decent action.All of them have basically lied and cheated and done everything they could to make life hell for me and my kids.
    As for Jen and your letter to the MP do not hold your breath.I have been doing that for several years.Never get so much as a reply.I am owed over $50,000 by IRD Child Support because of their bizarre decisions about overnight stays.I hold no hope of ever recovering it.Australia is not so bad once you get there and get set up.Other places are better though.

  22. Rebecca says:

    Hi, I would just like to thank everyone for their help on my post, So far my husband has just kept paying CS into his ex wives account, I wrote to my local MP and got a response from someone there asking if we would like a meeting with the MP regarding this topic, which i said “yes please” only to be told that someone else will be in touch with an appointment time, I have heard nothing more….lol. go figure!!!

    All I can say now is that Labour will NOT!!! be getting my vote this election and hopefully we will soon have a new government that will look into (And sack) IRD and their system and give all the paying parents and fathers more rights.

    I have read some of the posts written on this site, and have to say, some of them made me cry. I feel for all concerned..It made our situation tiny in comparision.

    I too have a child to my ex and would never put my ex or my child through what some of these men out there have to go through. Good luck to you all.

  23. Karen says:

    Well

    we had shared care of my husband’s children and now trying to formalise this via the FC. Had out first mediation conf and the ex wife now says the 14 yr old daughter no longer wants shared care…so we have been ordered to go back to 2 days a ftn with the daughter and 50/50 with his son…C4C has been appointed and we have an appt with her tomorrow.(This weekend we had his daughter and guess what we find out she is now on the pill…turned 14 one day ago and has been on the pill for a month…My husband is furious. one he was never told and if he was would never allowed it and 2) the mother said she’s done this for her daughters pimples…what 13/14 yr old doesnt get pimples…My husband told his ex wife if she wasnt allowed to wear full make up (and I mean full on foundation etc etc) then maybe her skin would be a little nicer…so C4C will be made aware of this aswell the 14 yr old having alcohol with her mother etc etc & low and behold what do we get in the mail. A letter from IRD saying weve been advised we no longer have shared care….bloody hell doesnt take these money hungry woman long. She obviously thinks the FC decision is going to go in her favour!!! well here’s starts another fight with this b*tch!! I luv my husband dearly and wouldnt want to be with anyone else BUT for all the ladies out there be very weary of meeting a man with a bitter ex because all this crap certainly takes its toll!!!! bring on C4C tomorrow – hopefully they see sense but I wont be holding my breath!!

  24. allan Harvey says:

    Hi Karen,
    It is common practice for kids to be put on the pill for things like acne, menstrual headaches, endometriosis, and other menstrual problems. The concept being you suppress the hormonal cycle thereby hiding problems. Some doctors view it as good medicine, others have very different views.
    Choice of Doctor is a guardianship matter but at 14 she can go to a youth health clinic or family planning and get whatever she chooses anyway. At least you know about this matter which is more than other parents.
    Chill out about the pill, you won’t win on that issue in the short term.
    What you say about a mediation conference isn’t true. Nothing can change at a mediation conference you don’t agree with. A Judge can’t order anything at a mediation conference unless you agreed to it. As you are unrepresented then take advice and you can object to an order so made even if you did agree to it at the conference. Can I again advise you to take the local advice available to you. DON’T meet with L4C unless you have talked to local people who know and can school you up. First meeting with L4C is critical. They will play your buddy and its all low key. Be assured their report is high stakes. You know who to contact so do it! Give up the moaning about her. It just distracts you from the children and what is important.
    Allan allan@uof.org.nz
    I am more than happy to recommend a good Dr who would be horrified at the concept of a 14 year old on the pill for acne. Maybe consulting such a person and getting yourself better informed is the way to tackle that issue but at the moment its a red herring. Take a look at below for a start on some of the negatives about kids on the pill.
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004/10/27/birth-control-part-two.aspx
    or
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004/06/12/contraception-facts.aspx

  25. Rebecca says:

    Hi, Just had to reply on the pill thing, I know it is off cs subject but…Karen believe me your stepdaughter is better off on the pill!! My stepdaughter is 16 and her mother was telling my husband that their daughter has a boyfriend and stays at his house but she wont put her on the pill??? Why the hell not, we only hope that their daughter has done it off her own back. On the other hand I have a 19 year old daughter that has just started living with her boyfriend that she has been going out with about 4 mnths, I knew she wasn’t on contraception and offered to take her to the dr to get her on something, she turned me down flat saying that the pill made her periods heavy and the injection made her fat, low and behold she is now pregnant!, She thinks the world of her boyfriend (Bloody prick that he is) and he has told her to have an abortion or they are over, he already has a 1 year old child that he has nothing to do with because his ex didnt abort, My daughter is now going to do this to keep him, even though I am completely opposed to her doing so. She would rather have a guy that is totally horrible to her than a mother that will never forgive her, Unfortunally for me I don’t have her father for support with her because he took his own life when my daughter was a year old. It is harder to get it through these girls heads that it is easier to prevent than it is to go through what she is about to do to herself and the child she is carrying.

    I know it is hard to accept that a 14 year old can be sexually active but hey it is happening, I know, I was only 14 when i started.

  26. Allan Harvey says:

    Rebecca,
    Not only is it hard to accept that a child of 14 be sexually active it is illegal. If it happens it shouldn’t and good parents should not condone it. The script in this case isn’t for a child who is sexually active (or at least not yet). That is why Dad doesn’t want his daughter on the pill.

  27. Karen says:

    yes I agree Allan. Its illegal and why would any mother be happy to put her child on the pill and give her an open cheque book to sex. I definitely understand where your coming from Rebecca!!! but its just another feather in the ex wifes cap thinking ‘my daughter luvs me cause Ive put her on the pill and she can tell all her friends how very grown up she is”. Im pretty sure she wouldnt put cocaine on her kitchen table and say go to it, to the 14 yr old. Where does common sense come into this??? Daughter now thinks mums the bees knees, says to dad only want to see you 2 nites a ftn, when since Oct we have had 50/50 care of her and next minute we are fighting thru court to see her more??? 2 mins later IRD are knocking on our door – you no longer have shared care….all I say is where is the mothers head….oh yeah thats right MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

  28. Rebecca says:

    Hey guys, dont get me wrong, I am definiely not condoning a 14 year old going out and having sex, but hey whether you accept it or not, it is happening with some of our children these days, they are getting younger and younger, the thing is girls grow up (well they THINK!!!) very early in age these days, all I am saying is it is better to prevent. Karen, Docs do use the pill for alot of girlie related problems these days, Acne, period pain (when they suffer badly with it) cyst on the ovarys, There are alot of things. It does not mean they are out there having sex. You say that your stepdaughter is spending less and less time with her dad, having come from a broken family myself and having two teenage daughters in our wee family, I know when girls hit the age of 12-15 they are not interested in hanging out with either of their parents, they want to be with their friends, my father used to pick us up every sunday mostly without fail (unless he was away) and when i got to the age of 12ish i didn’t want to go anymore because I wanted to be with friends and do the listening to music and hanging out at each others house sort of thing, boys seem to want to hang out with dad longer though I feel( my brothers did). It was the same with my stepdaughter, she has got to the stage where it not fun to be with mum or dad and my husband now sees bugger all of her, but he always text to see how things are going with her, (it seems to be the sign of the times to text than talk to someone these days…lol)I think it changes again when they get older because my father and I are way closer than my mother and I now. Teenage girls can be real hair puller outers I can tell you, and it seems its only just starting for you…lol. you have long ways to go yet babe…lol.

    I also know how frustrating their mothers can be too, I have wanted to rip hubbys exes eyes out at times with her complusive lying and ripping us off. But after reading some of these posts and what other people are going through, and seeing they are getting absolutely nowhere, I have just given up. The way I see it now is that it will all be over for us in 2 years or less, where as some of these people have been trying to fight the system for years and are still no further ahead and have spent 100’s of thousand in the process. We can’t afford to do that. I have also realised that I have been the one getting on my husbands case about it all and making it all a total nightmare for him, He has decided that he might turn his daughter against him by the constant aruguing with her mother over it, when I think about it, it is not making his daughter feel good. (or maybe that she feels that she is the one causing it all). We are lucky enough that she is now old enough where hubby doesnt have to deal with his ex a whole lot anymore, he just goes directly to his daughter.

    I am also lucky that with my son(10) that his father, his partner, my husband and I all get along very well, we make anything regarding our son together. The c/s that I get from my ex goes straight into my sons bank account each mnth, and that gets used to buy things that he needs, ie..school uniform, clothes, etc when i need the money to pay for those sorts of things. It is so much easier than it is with hubbys ex, which i suppose is why i find it so frustrating with her, but she is such a bitter, nasty person, she is the one that makes it so hard.

    I so feel for you and like me you really need to sit and have a good think about it all. At the end of the day I dont want my stepdaughter growing up thinking that i was the bitch in it all.

    I hope you make sense of what I am saying, I am not very good at putting thoughts into words on paper, it all seems to come out wrong as in my above post…but man it feels great to get it off my chest by being able to write it all down and then read it over and over…lol

    Kind regards
    Rebecca.

  29. Karen says:

    Hi Rebecca

    many thanks for your post. Your right. My ex husband, his lovely partner and my hubby all get along for my 2 kids sake. (aged 7 & 9) and I was proud to hear my son (9) say how cool it is that mum and dad get on. Then like you we have a nasty bitter person that uses her own flesh and blood to play games. to me as a mother/parent that is inexcusable!!! Thats the ultimate in child abuse!!!!! anyway like you this year when we got 50/50 my husband and I thought great lets all just move on and enjoy the kids BUT then the nasty ex’s wages from us went down because of 50/50 SO she no longer wants this and this is why we are in the family court…..I too went thru a separation of my parents when I was 11 to 14 yrs old. Maybe things have changed but I lived with my mum fulltime and saw my dad in the hols because he lived in a different town. I tell ya – I so looked forward to his ph calls and visits BUT then I also had a fabulous mum that encouraged us about dad all the time…(not like these nasty ex’s who try to destroy their childrens thoughts about the other parent.!!!) What ever the f/court decision we will ride with it and we will be there for the step daughter – however its time to put some energy into mine and my husbands relationship with my step son we have 50/50 and my 2 children!!!! Im ashamed of these woman that get posted about who are bitter, nasty and controlling. What comes around goes around I believe!!!! For all the lovely woman that post on the menz website I so wish you were my husbands ex wife.Like the dads here you all have your kids best interests in the fore front of your mind instead of speaking out the rear ends of their a** that many of these vindictive people do!!!!

  30. Martin Swash says:

    It’s great that you are making an effort to all get on, but isn’t it difficult, the smallest financial problem will cause a major incident ?

    I TOO THANK ROSIE, KAREN, REBECCA and all women on this website, most men still know the majority of women are like you, caring and pleasant !

  31. Rebecca says:

    Here here Karen!!! Mine and your situations sound so alike its scarey…lol I gave up along time ago with my husbands ex, I let him deal with her now, I did try to be her friend to start but in our conversations she was just so negative and bitter about everyone in my husbands life, including his parents and siblings, my husband had not seen or spoken to his family in 7 years before i met him because his ex didnt like them, one day about 3 mnths into our relationship i just said how would you feel about us going and having a visit with your folks (they are in their 80s and are the sweetest people you could ever meet.), he agreed, and we both have an amazing relationship with them now.

    Its funny because my parents split when I was 6 and growing up mum never had a negative thing to say about my dad but now when i am 37 she is shocking in putting him down and throwing this and that in my face about him, At the end of the day the more bad she has said about him the more it pushed me toward him, I see or talk to my dad every week now where as I havent spoken to my mum in nearly a year because we could not have a conversation that she wasnt putting him down. I think it comes down to the fact that Dad and his wife have been married for over 25 years and are still really happy and my mum is now in her 4th marriage. Thats not dads or my fault as far as im concerned she needs to look at herself. Some woman really do need to stand back and take a long hard look at themselves because at the end of the day it will only come back to bite them on the butt as far as their children are concerned, I am just going to make sure I am not one of them.

  32. Deborah says:

    Hi there, just after some advice. My hubby’s CS has increased with the change in financial year. It has left us worse off so we are thinking about me going full time at work and reducing his hours (we have a 1 yr old child of our own plus I have a 7 year old son). In case his ex contests it (which she inevitably will) we just want to be assured that our combined income will not be taken into account and the CS formula will be taken primarily from hubby’s income. I note an earlier post says “Note that “child care” by the custodial parent is seen a legitimate reason for not working or working less hours and not a deliberate attempt to pay less”. Does this also apply to the liable parent??

  33. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    #32 Does this also apply to the liable parent??
    NO!

  34. Deborah says:

    You’ve got to be kidding?! No point me going back full-time then is it. Be damned if MY income will be going to support the “ex’s” lifestyle! What is it with this bloody CS system?!!!

  35. rosie says:

    When I went to Belfast a few years ago,I was aware that I was being watched cos I was a stranger in the community where I was staying.
    I’m also getting that same feeling here at Menz.

  36. Deborah says:

    My husband just wanted to confirm…are you saying that if his ex disputes CS (if he becomes the main caregiver for our child and I go full-time) that our COMBINED income will be taken into account in an Admin Review? He rang the IRD some time ago about this and their reply was that it would have to take “exceptional circumstances” to warrant an increase if his income dropped considerably due to childcare commitments. However, I’m more of a cynic and don’t trust what the IRD say. His ex works fulltime so its not like she has childcare commitments of her own. Is it likely that she would win an Admin Review in this case?

  37. Kelvin D says:

    Hi Bob

    In ressponse to your request for help. I recall having read an article somehwre (can’t think where for the time being)where a Dad who won a review? case against his ex wife. Apparently his wife – who had custody of the children – chose to work part time as she wanted to be at home when the kids came home from school. Her salary was about &36,000.00 a year and his was about $90,000.00.

    On that basis he was getting stung up to the maximum amount. He argued that he was bearing an unfair burden of child support given that his ex a had made a choice to work part time. His burden would decrease and her responsibility would increase if she worked full time.

    The IRD apparently accepted that as the ex had chosen to work part time her earnings should be computed on the basis of what she would earn if working full time. That increased her income to about $50,000.00 approximately.

    The resul;t was that the father’s obligation for child support decreased exponentially.

    If I can track down the information I will post another comment. But a preceent now seems to exist that might assist you.

    Best of luck!

    Kelvin

  38. Deborah says:

    Hi again – can someone please respond to my msge posted last Monday #36? Really interested to hear from someone who has been through an Administrative Review where the liable parent has decreased income due to childcare committments but then lost an Admin Review. Any advice? Cheers.

  39. allan Harvey says:

    Deborah,
    I’m happy to answer from a private e-mail or phone call. IRD staff have been observing this site lately and have threatened some members over too many details of their case being exposed on this public forum. You can e-mail me on allan@uof.org.nz or call and leave your number on 0508 CallDad (05082255323).
    Allan Harvey, Union of Fathers (Wellington)

  40. Thomas says:

    I was living in a defacto relationship with my heavily pregnant partner for only 3 weeks before she decided to leave. We have made a Child Support agreement through the lawyer for $300 per week saving me the top salary of $330.
    We have also made a private access arrangement. As she “lost the love” over a period of time, the access agreement got changed and I see my baby 1 hour a day 3 times a week. I have no other children and she has 1 other. I would like to get an agreement for shared care. This is up for neg between both parties.
    My QUESTION is, what access does a Father legally have? would a court award shared care if the child is bottle feed and 5 months old?
    The mother has not released any information about my child from the day its born. I do not know who has seen her or held her, when she came home from the hospital, how she is on the days I dont see her, what her weight gains are,?
    Also the mother is talking about running away from Auckland to Wellington…I’m a guardian, surely I can oppose that?

  41. "H" Hohepa says:

    Hi, do you have any legal document to support your claim? If you are going to ask for a review make sure you have a document which hasn’t expired and covers all relevant grounds you wish to argue.

    If you don’t have legal documents reflecting what you’ve stated, I wouldn’t be optermistic.

    Ombudsman will probably advise you to follow the review process depending on which country ombudsmen you attempt appeal.

  42. "H" Hohepa says:

    Hi, last time I posted on here I was in a bad way but on the 17 October2008 my x wife stoppedchild support however, she would not agree to get rid of out standing payments through centrelink in Aussie so a final lump some of $9500 dollars was to be paid which I did. What you may not be aware of is, NZ Inland revenue act as debt collectors for CSA.
    Now IRD deduct x amount from your salary and you would think the money went directly to the custodial parent, but it doesn’t IRD hold your payments in limbo and every month their automated system sends a bulk load of cash to CSA. Whilst your bulk money and I presume everyone elses bulk money end up in IRD bank account it isn’t allowed to generate any interest because IRD arn’t allowed to make any money off the plight of my child. So why hold the money for up to 3 months before releasing it? Well one reason is that IRD lost track of my account number that was one excuse and finally admitted someone had simply added an extra 0 at the end of my CSA transfer number.
    IRD apologise in writing and in the mean time my x wife is angry at me for non payment of child support.
    I raised this issue with IRD and CSA re: their trans Tasman transition system only to be told that it was my responsibility to maintain a vigil on my child support to which i replied, I pay you what you do with it after that is my FAULT! OMG we have retards operating financial transactions which could be in the 6 figure bracket easily.

    Anyway this doesn’t have a happy ending I mentioned 17 October 2008 payments were suppose to cease they continued deducting Child support unofficially because child support had ceased what i was paying for now was outstanding debt which I paid. IRD were aware that I had paid outstanding debt and alerted pay serve to cease deductions 2 weeks prior to xmas.
    I requested IRD follow this up they did not, deductions continued however, there was no legal reason for anyone to deduct money from my account anymore so theoretically pay serve were essentially removing money from my account without my authority. I informed IRD of deduction being taken out under the assumption of child support. IRD went into panic mode, faxed pay serve requesting they cease all illegal deductions to which pay server replied, we are sorry but once in the system we cannot stop transaction until everyone is back in the New Year.
    Xmas period and automated system once in play cannot be interrupted manually until New Year 2009. So during the xmas period deduction continued. What they were for…no one will answer.
    CSA continued to send me letters of outstanding debt not taking into account IRD automated system. CSA continued to hassel me for payments which had been deducted and paid by me and now sat in IRD account until the New Year when everyone starts back work.
    Now as I stated I pay IRD; IRD hold money; end of holding period money sent to CSA; in the mean time CSA are harassing me for money which has already been paid. I asked the question,”can’t someone in IRD ring through and simply state, please don’t send any threating debt letter to this client we have his money and you will recieve it when our no interest automated system kicks in in a month or so”.
    CSA continue to send letters, January; February; March; April 2009 the last debt being $36.:00
    Now there is a twist I have letters from IRD apologizing for their mistakes admitting blame and telling me I do not owe any further payments until today when I recieved another CSA certificate stating a debt of $36. I rang IRD they put me through to CSA sector and she basically didn’t give a F*%K what I said and stated, “are you finished because I tell you what I’m going to do. I will ask CSA for the updated certificate, then action further deductions” I said, what about the letter which states your apology for all the trouble we have caused. She cut me off staing, “as I stated I will update certificate etc…etc… at this point I got loud! I made threats of 60 minute and 20/20 and said thanks for not helping me, then hung up. WTF do you do!

    At least with CSA you are assigned a case manager which isn’t %100 fool proof but the reality is you are a series of digits which correlate to a specific account which is automated. CSA IRD have standard mandatory practice model which they stick to.
    This means any CSA/IRD employee familiar with standard practice model can deal with you at any given time and not know your history or who you humanly are.
    They aren’t familiar with the stress you go through when dealing with child support be it a review of either Aussie or NZ practice.
    OMG 7 months since child support officially ceased 28th April they want $36 AU.

    Pay or not to pay?

    peace out everyone

  43. Hans Laven says:

    “H” Hohepa: It sounds like you have run into the cold heart of bureaucracy. It’s incredible that services we pay for through our taxes are allowed to treat us that way. I would suggest you make a complaint to the employer about the woman you talked to on the phone. Mostly, the people I have talked to have been polite and reasonable, but I too had the misfortune to get through to a woman who seemed to be on a mission to punish men, certainly any men who dared object to anything IRD CS did.

    I recommend that people in all communications refer to Child Tax, Father Removal Tax, Spousal Support or DPB Reimbursement Tax. Each of these terms is more honest than the term Child Support, because no child would reasonably cost up to $500 per week to run.

  44. "H" Hohepa says:

    Here is copy of my official complaint to IRD registered today:

    I refer to your letter outlining our phone dialogue and my concerns re: discrepencies surrounding arrears of ACSA payments or the non on time payments of ACSA along with the continual harassment and stress I’ve recieved via the shoddy process with which both ACSA and NZ IRD continue to utilize.

    Sir or Madame the conversation I had via phone assured me all arrears were paid and I have a letter along with a 8 month never ending process of foul ups one after the other.

    In my attempt to try and explain myself to one rude international IRD female personnel the nature of my continued harassment, I was subjected to another person who had no background details re: my letter or case history. In fact when I finished the arduous task of re-visiting my case an explaining the history, she cut me off and stated, “I’ll tell you what I’m going to do when this is conversation is finished. I will ask ACSA to send through and updated certificate then action it for deduction”. I hung saying, “well thanks for not helping me”.

    I tried to explain IRD letter dated 05.03. 09 our reference CS/INTL/RTM signed yours sincerely Robert Te Maro Officer Child Support. We are talking 8 months on and still no resolution. I’m still receiving certificates which I shouldn’t be paying. IRD deducted owed amounts direct from my salary. If IRD held owed amounts and are seen by ACSA as owing late payments; additional accounting fees or interest, I would expect IRD to pay for the error.

    As for the continual harassment, I’m not satisfied with the letter referred to above or the phone call received indicating all arrears etc… had been dealt with and I would receive no further harassment. I feel frustrated; disappointed beyond belief IRD a government department which my hard earned tax dollars go to pay fails to deliver; administer; evaluate; review or action infra-structural change so this type of third world operation no longer exists therefore, I believe it prudent to lobby ombudsmen intervention.

    If I have no success with ombudsman, I seek local media support e.g. 20/20; 60 Minutes or Sunday as I feel there are probably m ore parents out there who are experiencing the same issues. Media intervention to bring about change and respect for all child support paying parents.

    We are not criminals and should not be made to feel so.

  45. "H" Hohepa says:

    Hey all like is said next level this is latest update as today.

    Ombudsmen
    Complaints Department

    To Whom It May Concern in October 2008 I was in contact with my ex-wife regarding Australian Child Support (ACS). The reception I received from her was accusative due to her not receiving ACS since early June 2008.
    I assured her all deductions came out of my salary every fortnight and explained I was powerless to stop payments. My ex-wife accused me of lying and urged I sort out the issue and pay what was owed.

    I contacted Australian Child Support Agency (ACSA) and spoke to my case worker Lee. He informed me ACS had ceased since mid June of 2008. I re-iterated my position re: IRD deductions made from my salary and could prove deductions had been taken from my salary using my pay slip which would reflect this.

    ACSA implied it was paying parents responsibility to monitor child support.
    It’s not enough to pay and now I’m asked to administer this process too.
    I attempted to argue my point of being powerless; deductions happened automatically I couldn’t intervene etc…mean while being explained the reciprocal agreement between our neighbouring countries and reading between the lines interpreting their explanation to mean, “we are protected by our countries reciprocal agreement and therefore can’t be held accountable for any miss-management however, we would advise you to sort this issue out before the situation escalates”. In other words, you will have to discuss this with the appropriate government agency responsible for dealing with your deductions” namely, New Zealand IRD.

    I contacted IRD. IRD investigated the issue and found there was an issue with their administration process. I requested full written disclosure of how three months worth of child support could go missing; where child support went to; what penalties would I incur as a result of non payment of child support and what happened to the interest incurred whilst child support was held in IRD account. The answer I received is explained in a letter but basically apologises for the error; places blame with an administration process error. No explanation of which account child support was held in for three months and regarding interest incurred, I was reminded it’s illegal for IRD to profit off child support. I would argue the money would have been incurring interest in my bank account for three months I’m left wondering how much is lost nationally. Regarding penalties, I received no explanation and it’s not like I’m paying off a fine.

    At the end of the letter the usual generic response which basically states,” Quality customer service is a major focus for us or the complaints management services regularly evaluate the effectiveness of the service it provides to customers. It is important to us to get customer feedback in order to be able to provide better service”.

    On the 5th of March 2009 I received a letter of apology then I received further ASCA certificates stating my ACS was still in arrears. I complained through the proper channels. I spoke with various advisors pre and post Christmas period. I was officially informed deductions for ongoing Child Support had ceased however, arrears outstanding would be deducted.
    I spoke to an IRD advisor, he setup an amount of $40 per fortnight to pay off the outstanding debt.

    Deductions for ongoing ACS did not cease; the IRD deal wasn’t setup so unofficially I was paying ACS for who and what?
    I contacted IRD who in turn contacted pay serve and tried to intervene and cease fictitious ACS deductions. The intervention at pay serve level didn’t work because like IRD; ACSA and other bureaus, they are automated and can’t override manually and given the Christmas period, estimated time of intervention would be 2009 mid January.

    Deductions continued 2008 to 2009 to the point of over paying IRD for fictitious ACSA payments; assessed at same rate of $565.00 per fortnight.

    I contacted IRD explained the ongoing deductions which are deducted illegally they advised there was nothing to be done as most agencies close for the Christmas period.
    Mean while my family arrive from abroad to spend the festive season.
    I haven’t seen my children or grandchildren for many years and I can’t afford Christmas presents or the holiday planned. I’m so proud of my children. They all understood and were very thoughtful.

    As you can imagine payments ceased however, IRD reimbursed monies for fictitious deductions only to inform me I owed income tax, I asked why IRD didn’t keep reimbursements to pay income tax, the reply was”we are required to repay owed monies for specific taxes” to which I replied, “that’s not in all cases because overpayment of my student loan wasn’t given the same consideration. IRD took monies owed to me and used to pay arrears re: ACS”. IRD answer was,” I’m not aware of those particulars”.

    2009 payments supposedly ceased and I’m still receiving ACSA certificates claiming further monies owed. I have no idea if this is new ACS claim? Suggestions were made re: financial slump and decline of NZ currency to which I state, “I paid ACS, if IRD held ACS and NZ currency depreciates, IRD are responsible for the loss not me”.

    I receive another letter 6th of May 2009. The tone of this letter totally contradicts IRD apology letter of 5.03.09.
    In my opinion letter dated 06.05.09 rescinds previous apology using New Zealand Australian reciprocal agreement to justify any errors incurred by IRD.
    To the best of my knowledge IRD do not have mandate to wield international reciprocal agreements like parliamentarians wield parliamentary privilege.

    I believe current systems utilised by IRD and ACSA are ill conceived and don’t take into account issues evident from my complaint. How many other tax paying parents fall victim to bureaucracy.

    I would like an official review of current reciprocal agreement practise and action change indicated in strategic planning for future amended practise. Transparency of review would only insure public confidence in government departments.

    In the event my complaint goes unheard, I’ve stated I will take my complaint to the media e.g. 20/20; 60 Minutes or Sunday and alert all tax paying parents to this issue. The public have a right to know.

    All copies of letters /documents will be sent to the address reflected below

  46. John says:

    I wouldn’t hold your breath on this one. I had a similar issue and requested my lawyer to make a complaint but I was told that it would most likely fail.
    I asked my lawyer how many times they knew of a successful complaint. She couldn’t name one. The system is flawed I’m afraid. If the is no proper complaints body then you can’t win.

  47. "H" Hohepa says:

    Hi latest update re: ombudsmen complaint and it read:
    Dear “H”
    I refer to your email and letter of 15 May 2009 and enclosures.
    You have complained about the treatment by IRD of your child support situation. As such, your complaint is a matter which an Ombudsman can investigate. As a first step in my investigation, I have today written to the commissioner of IRD, requesting that he provide me with a report and any relevant papers on the matters you have set out in your emails.

    I will write you again as soon as I have had the opportunity to consider the commissioner’s response.

    Yours sincerely

    David McGee
    Ombudsman

    watch this space bye 🙂

  48. julie says:

    Great work. I was just reading through some info from the HRC and the Ombudsman is the one to complain to if you have been unfairly treated by a central or local government department or organisation. I gave up complaining because of negativity and hopelessness shared amongst many others … but I am sooooo pleased you didn’t.

    It would be great if many others started complaining.

    http://www.ombudsmen.parliament.nz/

    Another move could be to complain to this man. He might know some options.
    http://tinyurl.com/osensv

  49. Ian says:

    We must ALL complain at the same time to have a better and bigger effect

  50. julie says:

    That’s a great idea.

    The HRC said to me on the phone (commissioner) that only 14 men had complained about something worthwhile in 5 years and that the HRC is a database used by the Government to make decisions and policies.

    You can find 1000’s of sites where people complain but mostly it is people just voicing their opinion on a certain day over a certain issue. But people with money to donate and people with power don’t troll websites Saying, “Hey, I think I will give to this person my money and/or time”.

    You need to develop something that has a worthwhile collective. Individualism won’t do it.

  51. Skeptik says:

    “You need to develop something that has a worthwhile collective.
    Individualism won’t do it”.

    Perhaps that’s true.
    Even so they’re a bunch of misandric bigots in my experience…

    As I said before if Whittcouls had books called –
    “All Maori are stupid” or
    “All women are bitches” on their shelves
    and I wrote a letter of complaint to them they’d be jumping out of thier skins to alter the situation.

    FACT is I wrote to them objecting to Whittcouls have copies of the book entitled
    “All men are bastards” on their bookshelves RIGHT NEXT TO THE CHILDREN”S SECTION AT 8 YEAR OLD EYE LEVEL…….
    and the ‘Human’ ‘Rights’ Commission did

    N
    O
    T
    H
    I
    N
    G !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  52. julie says:

    Skeptic, the story doesn’t end where it started.

    What did you do next?

  53. "H" Hohepa says:

    thanks for that I will consider any other option which can assist others in the same position

  54. Skeptik says:

    I realised the futility of trying to convince fruitbats of common sense.

  55. martin swash says:

    i complained to them Julie on the basis of your figures, no doubt it will NOT be in the statistics.
    I am sure that a hateful feminist working will “lose” most mens’ complaints

  56. hello although i dont have a direct reply to any of the stories above just thought that by accessing other websites and sending the news around. i have been fighting a case for a friend for 6 years now with the IRD i have managed to reduced payment considerebly but still continuing to fight. I am wanting to make changes in the IRD and New Zealand Government but am unable to do it without everybodies support, power in numbers. send your stories. For more details click link below. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fathers-Fighting-IRD-Child-Support/115064806136?

  57. Alice Jones says:

    I want to vent.

    We are paying the maximum possible child support to my husband’s ex wife even though we have 50/50 shared care. By the time the children grow up we will have paid way more than 100K

    She left him but got angry when he remarried.

    She is well off (very rich parents), can afford not to work, takes extended vacations overseas, buys expensive cars, lives in a million dollar home….

    We both work hard. So we pay. O – and now she wants full time custody saying that because she doesn’t work, she is in a better position to care for the children. We would have to pay even more then.

    argh.

  58. jason myer says:

    what if my new partner has children that r not mine and i am payiny my ex childsupport payments how does that effect the amount i pay

  59. Tim says:

    Unfortunately it doesn’t. I’ve just been thru the same issue with CS- my new partner has a daughter, however it won’t affect my child support payments as theoretically the costs of raising her are solely the obligation of my partner and HER ex. Through a recent admin review IRD have kindly removed her as being a ‘dependant’ because of this.

    In my case, I have my son 50/50, yet CS expect me to pay just over $10k per year to the ex. (so in effect, IRD value the cost of raising him at over $20k per annum)
    My partner’s daughter, whom we have fulltime 100% we only receive just over $6k per year.
    My partner and I recently had a baby- when factoring this into the equation the difference it made to my CS payments was only $330 per year.
    So, for our 3 children, IRD ‘value’ them at $20k for one, $6k for another, and $330 for the third. Amazing the difference IRD puts on the costs of raising 3 children!

    BTW, if there are any wealthy people out there who would like to donate any money, it would be greatly appreciated!
    IRD have whacked my CS obligations onto the max capped rate for my son whom I have 50/50, despite my pleading with them that this is wrong and that I have no way of paying it. It seems they are a law unto themselves, and the options you are left with to fight it are favoured hugely against you.
    I have been to my local MP and will continue my crusade against the wrongs of the Child Support legislation and of custody issues as well.

  60. Wonderful post – I was heading for a similar article which I will probably still take a shot at, but from a slightly different angle. Thanks for sharing this with your readers…Obviously a lot of others appreciate it too!

  61. ashley beall says:

    i would like to know if i aqm 19 years old and my dad still pays child support to my mother but she wont let me live with her but keeps all the money he sends she said it is hers to keep. is there a way i can get the money for my self so i can support my self.

  62. Dave says:

    Ashley, here is my understanding. You can check for yourself fromt he IRD web site.

    If you are 19 then you father does not have to pay child support.
    As I understand it you can not “get the money for my self so i can support my self”. If you want your father to support you, why don’t you talk to your father about it?

  63. Paul Edgar says:

    ird are cunts

  64. Ford says:

    yip..pretty honest and straight up approach

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