To whom it may concern
This is my first post in this forum. I need help and advice. I am drowning and I really do not know what to do. I do not want to react. And I know anything I do will be used against me.
My story goes a long way back. Two years ago, my wife then, told me she was heading to a bbq. A day later, I got a phone call from Hawaii. A week later, I located her in Misery, USA.
In the USA, she was faced for a request to return the children. She disappeared. Nine months later, she reappeared in Holland and requested that I move in with her and the children.
I declined and pressed with my Hague petition for the return of the children. She got nasty and made allegations of abuse. Her allegations were dismissed in court. The children’s return was requested.
I was asked to travel to collect the children but upon arrival, they had disappeared. The mother was found and held in custody. The children had been removed back to the US by her parents.
She was freed pending appeal of the Hague decision and requested to cooperate with the local police to bring the children back. As soon as she was freed, she appealed the decision, made worse allegations and did a runner. She flew back to the US, her home. The appeal went in my favor.
That was over a year ago.
We had another hearing in Misery in August. The allegations escalated from worse to downright silly. I won traveled to the US in January 2008.
In the plane, she offered to move back in with me. I almost cried of DISGUST. After two years of running around the world crying wolf, blaming me for abuse that never happened, she wants to move back in with me. It felt like a solicitation for prostitution.
I had then been granted an Interim parenting order. Upon arrival in NZ, I found out she made more allegations and triggered section 60 of the child care act.
The children were taken away from me at the airport. The lawyer for Child (LFC) drove her to her new residence. Since then, my life has been hell.
We appeared in court to discuss the section 60 allegations. I wanted to have a ruling but both my attorney and the LFC concurred it was best not to. A consent memorandum agreement was introduced by the LFC as a stepped in regime of the children under my care. I was asked to be the reasonable party. I signed it after being told it was temporary and my parenting order would be preserved.
My parenting order was immediately dismissed. The LFC blamed the judge. The LFC, since then, has been acting unilaterally without consultation with me. He redrafted the order to make it last for a year.
He recently applied for a variation of the order to allow the mother to take the children away from Northland for a holiday. The order stipulates that neither parent can remove the children out of Northland unless approved by the other.
I only found out about the holiday when we had a teleconference with the judge to discuss holiday arrangements on Monday. We were due to discuss it prior, but her attorney was not available.
My attorney submitted my refusal to allow the children out of Northland. The judge decided otherwise and made an order.
The last time she went for a BBQ, it cost $80,000 US for attorney fees and NZ$30,000 in travel cost. These cost do not even reflect a tenth of what it truly cost considering the involvement of three Central Authority of three governments.
Worse, it cost my children their sense of identity and my daughter was abused by the same guy my ex married to prove that the children were settled (”they love their new daddy”, she said) and should not be returned.
The children names have been changed. I am certain she has applied for new passports under their new names. I cannot afford to send them on a holiday with the mother.
She is picking them up today to take them for a holiday. I do not trust her with the kids.
Any advice out here?
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i do not understand why you feel you are a victim, this is all quite normal stuff you are experiencing, don’t you think you are being a little emotional…
harden up man !
Comment by cb — Sat 19th April 2008 @ 10:06 am
Hi Victim,
while cb is a tad toungue in cheek there is a ring of truth. Why get pushed around by lawyers and spend your dough. You probably knows heaps enough to self represent and to cost her money. Surely she wasn’t on legal aid for all this. If you are defending a NZ order overseas then the NZ govt paid (I thought). Were not costs sought in the foreign juristication against her.
Allan (allan@uof.org.nz)
Comment by Allan Harvey — Sat 19th April 2008 @ 10:50 am
Hi, First of all, I’m reliably told that you can change LFC through the court, assuming you have reasonable grounds to do so. It sounds as though you have more than enough grounds. The LFC supposed to act solely in the best interests of the children, and as hard as it is to take, they do not consider your feelings at all. The earlier comment from the guy saying toughen up I think is (hope) tongue in cheek. However, every guy on here has had a horrible experience, with an ex, and probably also with the legal system. I am in a similar situation to you, my ex is presently in the UK with my kids. She will hopefully however come back, but I have no guarantees, other than a piece of paper she signed to say she will. I’m sorry to say to you that no matter what country you are in, the system is so heavily weighted toward the woman, it’s just not funny. Guy’s have rights too, but sadly the system doesn’t seem to consider us as equals. Just keep going mate, don’t give up, and whatever it costs, just remember that it’s for your kids sake that you are doing it.
Comment by Paul — Sat 19th April 2008 @ 11:08 am
First of all cb don’t be soo hard. Yes there are too many of you out there as well as the women who are standing by you guys.
Victim by Gender, my partner I and understand your plight as we have had experience of the Family Court system and the ludicrous tales of woe from the ex-wife now for 7 years and still going. She wants to holiday in Aussie and there is a Court day pending during the period she is to be away, tickets have been paid, as well as the orders for Prevention of Removal of the Child and proceedings pending for day to day care. Here’s hoping they stop her.
We now represent ourselves and have achieved far more than being represented by a lawyer. It is far less costly although, after 7 years of battling, the paper work is colossal.
Paul commented that you should be able to change C4C, it took us 2 years to get rid of ‘My House My castle’ C4C and that was with the child stating directly to the judge that they wanted someone else. Yes as Paul commented the C4C is supposed to be there for the child only, but unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way.
Hang in there; we keep doing this because we love those kids.
Comment by sonnyking — Sat 19th April 2008 @ 7:01 pm
As I have said on another thread my 12 year old daughter could not be doing better despite the fact that I cannot contact her.I am thrilled she is a great sucess in her life.Sorry but you sound as if it is all about you.If your kids are doing well just let them go and get on with their lives
Comment by whanga — Sat 19th April 2008 @ 7:27 pm
Hi Victim By Gender, i really feel for you and your poor children who are obviously suffering abuse, those police officers are so staunch in their silly bullet proof vest arent they and your in handcuffs, they go around holding guns to childrens heads,i dont know why Whanga doesnt want to see her 12yr old but maybe she just doesnt want any friction, no matter what never give up on your children, they are your life
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Sun 20th April 2008 @ 10:58 am
I am sorry to read of this but have arrested 7 times myself and held over the weekend in a cell with no food,water or reading material and looneys screaming all day and night.I have never been convicted and there was never any slight chance of a conviction.Just basic harrassment.This kind of stuff is unfortunately becoming normal in modern day new Zealand.I do not get at all where you guys thought I am happy not to contact my 12 year old daughter.I think about her lots every day and write to her regularly congatulating her and letting her know I am thinking of her.What I was trying to say that if her mother does not want me contacting her and she is doing really well in her schol and her life I am certainly not going to rock the status quo and definetely am not going to have her subjected to the the kind of thing your kids just went through.Protest for sure mate but not in front of your kids.Leave them be with their mother.If they do not flourish in that environment then do something for sure.Move on.Do something for some charity that will make your kids proud of you.Be more careful who you have kids with in future
Comment by whanga — Sun 20th April 2008 @ 12:36 pm
Victim by Gender, it is hard, it affects the whole family and in saying that you can’t handle another 5 years is something we say all along.
I am a mother of 2, my partner’s daughter lives with us and she has become my daughter. Her mother physically and emotional abused her for 4 years. She has lived with us now for 6 years. Her father did not know about the abuse until 7 or so years ago, he had sporadic access and none with his son who is the one we are trying to save now.
Being a mother I am appalled at the way women have manipulated the authorities to suit their own gain, without even a flicker of a thought as to what it is doing to the children.
I have been used as the scapegoat in the so called “Family Court” and somehow magically took the daughter away from her mother before I even met her or the father, now my partner.
I have found the Family Court to be totally biased towards the father. The mother can stop access at any time and doesn’t even get a wrap across the knuckles. The father can be 5 minutes late dropping his son off and C4C and the police are contacted.
After all this time I still find I am speechless at the way the mother plays the victim and have come to the only conclusions I can, she doesn’t have a heart, she doesn’t love her children and she continually seeks attention from institutions and authorities and in my opinion has Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.
On one side of our lives in torment, yet on the other side my ex husband and I remain best of friends and he has stood with me by my partner, because our only ever concern has been the children.
Comment by sonnyking — Sun 20th April 2008 @ 4:16 pm
JK or JoKe ???
Anyone ever thought how hypocritical those john kirwan depression advertisements on t.v. reflect a sham at work; showing him playing with his kids while saying it’s ‘the little things’ that matter - someone should tell him to ‘wake up’ and take him along to the family court for a day, the guy hasn’t got a clue to the fact that ‘the little things’ as he call’s them are under the control of the state, “cliche advertising” at it’s worst is not a quick fix to something as serious as depression, while in complete ignorance of non-custodial parents (moreso fathers) that bear the burden of being denied equal rights as parents. Therefore, the advertisement on the dangers of depression led by JoKe is very misleading when held under closer examination, not surprising though, just another agenda at work under a Labour dictatorship.
Used as cannon fodder for the Labour propaganda machine 100 %, what a clueless bastard. Yeah, your mates told you to harden up John Kirwan as you say in your t.v. advertisement, well i say WAKE UP !!! again you have been played a pawn - you PHONEY.
Comment by cb — Sun 20th April 2008 @ 4:30 pm
The family court rips the heart from a decent father.
They are the scum of the earth and some NZ police are
corrupt,violent thugs !!
Comment by dad4justice — Sun 20th April 2008 @ 10:28 pm
These mails are too upsetting, NZ police are just the biggest gang in the country. Disgusting i will never ever help them with anything, the whole law and police are just rotten , ex-wife gets DPB , legal fees paid, i have to pay child support, all for 2-3 hours each week, someone is going to pay for all this one day
Comment by zubbazubba — Mon 21st April 2008 @ 10:46 am
Hi Zubbazubba, we are with you in every way
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Mon 21st April 2008 @ 2:10 pm
ALI AKBAH, INSHALLAH, my brothers, the infidel swine will pay…
Comment by cb — Mon 21st April 2008 @ 2:17 pm
Hadi, you’ve nailed it. They are my life. The mother has put the family caught in between. It feels like they have been abducted again. The kids have returned but are not home yet.
Thanks Whanga, I admire your stance. I do sometimes contemplate moving away and walking away as a solution. To me, it would feel like trying to abort a six months old fetus. This thought only strengthens my resolve to make it work and not allow the negative to rule.
Hi Frank & Earnest, I know, it’s unjust. What amaze me is the actual irony of the situation. It does not make any sense. It should not be like that.
I share your concerns SonnyKing. I’ve spent the entire day perusing the Care of Children Act. It must be written by a lawyer turned politician. For every decision to be made, there are twenty ways to get around it. The fastest and shortest is still false serious allegations.
I am glad to hear you have the support of your loved ones.
cb, I would like to hire you to represent me anytime.
Dad4Justice, it was actually funny watching one of the thugs trying to hold himself back. He could not, he just needed that extra punch to feel better. I made them crawl on their feet before allowing them to handcuff me. He did not like that.
Zubba, someday they will meet someone on P. They will not see it coming.
Comment by VictimByGender — Mon 21st April 2008 @ 11:18 pm
Men need to form an army and deal to such women police judges IRD etc.
Cival war is what we need. Then hand the country over to its rightful owners.
We need to throw out Westminister Law It stinks.Maori Law is fairer.
I would not fight for this country as it is but I would fight to the death for men to receive justice. Mohammad has the right answer.
Passive battles against Courts and this corrupt NZ system will never work.
Comment by Agrieved Father — Wed 23rd April 2008 @ 8:49 pm
I would join up tomorrow ! Only radical things and UNpeaceful protest will ever change this BullSh*t, i agree. But someone MUST organise it
Comment by Martin Swash — Wed 23rd April 2008 @ 10:07 pm
Aggrieved and Martin
It takes a revolution to bring a revolution. It takes chaos to bring peace. But what are the costs of such actions to our children? I wonder if Sun Yat Sen during his days knew this would be the state of China today .
I think back at how Israel managed to be carved out a country out of Palestine. They used their history of persecution and leveraged it politically and diplomatically to win this prime real estate. They have won no doubt but is it worth it considering their current explosive situation?
With children, any fight at their defense is worth it but how could such fight come about?
I beleive the present situation originated out of a desire to protect the young and the weak. Funny enough, It is now unPC to call a gender weak even though, had it not been assumed at the legislation level that one gender is weak, such undertakings by the family courts would never be made legal.
They are downright abusive to men, unsettling and harmful to children and go directly against the spirit of the care of the children’s act.
Affirmative action in the US was crafted out of the same desire to redress iniquity between races. It has turned into a race focused state sponsored bias.
People are no longer considered as people, but as subgroups of human with sets of privileges.
In the current state, all it takes is for a woman, any woman to express fear for the police to turn into thugs and fly at their defense. Once that fear is turned into abuse by the law enforcement agencies, one no longer has rights to one’s own children.
Perhaps, we should start by dealing to the police? First of all, it is wrong to abuse anyone. But the police has the right to abuse anyone on behalf of another.
I moved to New Zealand 7 years ago from the US. I was fascinated that the police did not carry guns. I now realize it is so because the police is the abuser’s gun.
I have been assaulted with a child in my arm by two police officers. I asked the police why the need for violence, they said I was not cooperating. In fact, I told them to call the mother and have her pickup the kids since they were going to arrest me. I had already made my point.
Funny that violence only triggers violence. Since their assault, I lay in my bed at night thinking of ways to hurt these bastards.
It makes me think of Palestinians in concentration camps erected by former survivors of concentration camps. What do they dream about?
After so many years invested in mass murdering Palestinians, Israel cannot afford to stop the violence. Palestinians have no other recourse than to use violence against their oppressor.
It is ironic that they are in the same situation as us. Every thing we do shall and will be used against us to validate the state sponsored abuse.
Funny enough we all know that violence is not a solution. Or is it?
Comment by VictimByGender — Thu 24th April 2008 @ 10:06 am
I do not believe in violence but looking at history, I find that even violence has a purpose.
In chapter two of the Baghavad Gita, Arjuna was faced with having to fight back. His gentle spirit would not allow him to use violence against any being.
He was told that unless he took up arms and defended himself against the abuser, he would never be free nor would his abusers be able to recognize their wrongdoings.
In this case, even though violence is used, it is so as a puritanic and curative measure.
When the prophet Mohammad (PBUH) faced the same dilemma from communities within his community, he took up arms and fought for the reunification of his people.
Had he not done so, him and his community would have allowed the oppression to continue.
But then, we have the example of Ghandi. He fought violence with Peace. Whether he won or not is still to be debated.
We also have the example of Che Guevara or even Castro. He stood firm and denounced oppression. He rallied his people behind him and stood proud. Him and his country have been oppressed, alienated and sanctioned ever since but their pride and sense of righteousness have never been compromised.
In hindsight, Castro would not be where he is had he not used violence against his own people.
I am for a change of the laws. I would prefer it to occur without violence. But I would embrace it if necessary. Our children are the future of this nation.
If we do not stand against their oppression, we will be condoning it.
*Peace and Love.
Comment by VictimByGender — Thu 24th April 2008 @ 10:28 am
What I believe:
– Represent yourself. A paid lawyer will not gain your case. Indeed the lawyer
knows you are going to loose. Save your money for a better use for your children.
– Counsel for Child(C4C) is not interested in the welfare of the children nor is going to represent their views (that will be in sharp contradiction with Womens Refuge line). Do not trust their advice. They are there to incriminate you. They are the second lawyer for your partner.
– Do not go the the violence program if you can. C4C told me that doing that course is admitting to beeing violent. At the beggining i did my best to show good faith and will.
– Do not do any silly thing. All what the Family Court does is designed to push you to commit violence. Be prepared and reste calm at all times.
Comment by alma — Fri 25th April 2008 @ 6:38 pm
One thing I have learnt, don’t represent yourself!! I did, only because I couldn’t afford the lawyer to be there herself.
I had a male judge, thought I’d be alright - he basically said, whatever she (the ex) wanted, I had to give.
The ex has never stopped referring back to that - and it was 6 years ago that I had to go through it… comments such as “toughen up” are useless..
Those who have had to go through the “process” are screwed from day one and we all know it.
Comment by badchoices — Mon 28th April 2008 @ 10:50 pm
Self litigants have better success than those using lawyers. You do need to do the hard yards to prepare well though and have a good McKenzie friend by your side top show you the ropes.
Comment by allan harvey — Mon 28th April 2008 @ 11:51 pm
Dear Alma, I am very concerned that your counsel-for-child suggested that by attending the “anti-violence programme” that you were admitting doing violence. Nothing could be further from the truth!
If you listened to her/his “advice”, you would have then been charged with failing to attend, ie a Breach of DV Order. It sounds as though this legal worker was trying to entrap you.
Were these words communicated to you in writing?
If someone is willing to be accountable for their words, they will commit them to a piece of paper and add their signature. Scoundrels often say things, but when challenged to write it down, refuse to do so….?????
If this legal worker was trying to entrap you, then they are worthy of a professional complaint, laid with the Law Society. (Don’t have any unrealistic expectations of the legal workers union, but make the complaint and perhaps copy it to this website - so others can follow the progress of the complaint in public. There is obviously a huge conflict of interest, in these people being advocates for legal workers and hearing their own professional complaints. This conflict was recently removed from Real Estate Agents. In exactly the same, it should be removed from legal worker. Its just that there are so many legal workers in Parliament, as MPs.)
You seem to be surviving the traps pretty well.
Cheers, MurrayBacon.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 28th April 2008 @ 11:58 pm
Allan
Our McKenzie friend was not allowed into the court. The court registarar was not happy to take our forms to allow “UOF lay person” in and when she finally took them handed them straight to opposing parties solicitor who also said no!!!. The parental order was a joint application and the only reason I was finally allowed in was the other parties solicitor would rather have had me, than the UOF lay person??? So where do you stand when you go to court, all new to this and the court registrar’s behaviour was shocking - telling my husband sit here, no she isnt allowed in court etc…Im only thankful he stood his ground and said if I cannot have my lay person or wife in the court for support then I wont her counsel to leave…finally other party backed down….but for people who are unfamiliar Im damn sure they (court/lawyers) try and bully the self litigants!!
Comment by Karen — Tue 29th April 2008 @ 8:26 am
What a load of rot Alan as self litigants are on the road to
nowhere as the family court is a cauldron of lies!
Comment by dad4justice — Tue 29th April 2008 @ 8:31 am
Well Dad4Justice all I can say is that over 50% of the cases I assist with guys are successful. The cases I often deal with a difficult and protracted. For most Union of Fathers supported litigation we would have a 60% hit rate of Fathers getting what they wish. We are happy to show you our statistics if you would like to write up the research data for others to see.
We even got a mention at the recent Lexis Nexis Conference in Auckland of Family Lawyers as being a successful support group for self litigants and brick bats from Ruth Busch of Waikato University for the difficulty in getting ex-parte Protection Orders and for having protection orders discharged (which has to be an ultimate accolade of success).
Allan Harvey
Union of Fathers (Wellington)
Comment by allan Harvey — Tue 29th April 2008 @ 5:33 pm
Hi Karen,
If you speak to Union of Fathers (Tauranga) or flick me an e-mail I will send you my McKenzie Friend application which you can submit as an intelocutory matter to get your McKenzie Friend in. I only ever had it fail once (That was the case I actually drafted it for originally back in 2004. The High Court Judge kicked me out but broke for mediation which I participated fully in and even got a commendation from the Judge and an apology for kicking me out in the first place).
My application goes into the history of the McKenzie Friend status, its precedents in law and its application to Family Court matters. Its about 5-6 pages of submission. I believe you are allowed a MCKenzie Friend as of right except in a Mediation Conference where the legislation does not allow the Judge flexibl=ility if the other side object.
Allan Harvey
Union of Fathers (Wellington)
Comment by allan Harvey — Tue 29th April 2008 @ 5:44 pm
badchoices,
I did not mean that as a self-litigant you will win. My family lost.
Either way you will loose. It is just as a self-litigant you will have more chances of seeing how the process works and how it works against you.
Represented you may one day move from point 0.001 to point 0.002 after you have
spent all your money and they made you a beggar.
Comment by alma — Tue 29th April 2008 @ 6:35 pm
BAd choices.
We are not screwed. It is the children involved that are screwed. Everyone else is covering their own asses.
Right or wrong, everyone has their own story and deserve the right to be represented.
The lawyers will convene before any hearing, shred each other to pieces and share a beer afterwards.
Counsels do not make the decisions. They act for either side.
Judges do make the decisions. Each decision has its own set of liabilities. If they make the wrong choice, they are liable. So they have to thread carefully.
I think my mistake is to have expected fairness and justice. Both can be found in the family court. But it takes time, resilience and clarity of mind.
My last stint has cost me dearly. I would not recommend it.
Life goes on. The kids are hurting. I am hurting. The mother is celebrating.
Comment by VictimByGender — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 3:58 am
Alan Harvey
Who is the Union of Fathers representative in in the South Island?
Is it still Steve Flynn!!
Comment by dad4justice — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 7:56 am
We have a new branch opening in Timaru. There was talk about a Christchurch Branch branch recently but it hasn’t happened. Otherwise South Island coverage is handled by e-mail suport from North Island branches.
Comment by allan Harvey — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 12:29 pm
Tell me guys please? How can Union of Fathers help?
I am planning to appeal, complain about C4C and the judges. Is this realistic?
I have absolutely no faith in the system. But I am told if you do not complain
They take it as you accepting the family court decision and if you complain they will punish you for it. (This is exactly soviet style)
Comment by alma — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 6:43 pm
Hi guys, why is there nobody on the you be the judge or cyfswatch websites?
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 7:43 pm
Hi there, sorry, just watching shortland st along with 95% of NZ children and seeing these two gays in bed together, if i had my son in my care this is now one programme i wouldnt let him watch
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 8:26 pm
Hi Alma, Union of Fathers helps because we have experienced people who have helped in thousands of other cases. We have some expertise and plenty of experience. What part of the Country are you in? You can e-mail me at allan@uof.org.nz if you would like me to find someone to review your case.
Comment by allan harvey — Wed 30th April 2008 @ 9:25 pm
This is meant to be a running diary on my court process.
I initially came asking for advice.
I have received good advice and hopefully I can share it with some of you.
1- Never go against the law no matter how unfair it is.
IT won’t do you any good. You are likely to get punished for it no matter how right you are.
Comment by VictimByGender — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 9:46 am
The corrupt law always wins in the family court.
I was falsely accused in 2001 and I must live with it
and NO dribbling fathers groups can help .
Fact. Just bend over and let the criminal family court shaft you.
Forget justice and fairness.
What will it take to make them understand ?
Comment by dad4justice — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 10:11 am
Hi Dad4Justice…
From what I understand, the law is there to be used to your advantage.
In that regard, one does not have to abuse it with false allegations but one should consider all available resources.
Based on the attorney and type of attorney you have, you are likely to have either:
1- An attorney that acts for the lifestyle;
2- An attorney that believes in “providing access to Justice to all”.
If you happen to have the latter, you will be informed of all of your possibilities and the range of options they entail.
The choice will be yours to make as far as how you wish to defend yourself based on the best options available.
In any case, if you feel that the accusations are wrong or false, it is your onus to provide all the relevant documentations to prove so to your attorney to present your case.
My main issue is that I document everything but then, I do not do anything with it. This is usually where the male gender is at a disadvantage. Most guys are not organized or disciplined enough for this task. Most can’t be bothered anyway until it is too late.
By the time I need to provide it as proof against false allegations, the system grinding machine is already in process.
I do not know of your specifics but I do beleive that, if you are informed well; then you can outline a strategy around your court process and start implementing it towards advancing your cause.
Comment by VictimByGender — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 10:32 am
I have appealed to every Court in the land and been
fobbed off as a piece of dog shit. The Supreme Court
denied my right of appeal last year. It is so unfair
as I haven’t had a chance to put my side of story
since 2001. This is not due process
and the judicial system is as CORRUPT as the Labour government.
End of story. Go to Australia all you young men thinking
of starting a family.
Both my sons have gone. I advised them to exit
feminaziland, which has become nothing more than a
cess pool of lies and unlawful
gender discrimination.
I have engaged the services of over 50 lawyers and had
in excess 200 court hearings. I have a paper trail that
could link Tasmania.It’s only cost the country millions
as Helen Clark had the SIS watching yours truly.
Money well spent taxpayer !!??Mine is a sad story just ask
the Families Commissioner and Don Brash.
What a disgraceful country where natural justice is just a
fallacy.
Comment by dad4justice — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 11:29 am
Hi Dad4Justice.
I have not walked in your shoes. And from the sound of it, I would not make a step if I did try to walk in your shoes.
I am very new to the court process. I am optimistic the children’s best interest will still be looked after.
I know I am an integral part in it for as long as I can be and for as I long as I can remain fair to myself and their cause.
I do beleive that, like most of nature cataclysms, the system is indiscriminate when in motion. IF you happen to be in its way, you will get crushed.
But then even a tsunami wave can be surfed.
I do not deny the fact that because it is designed to protect the young, weak and old, it’s bound to be bias against the others.
Perhaps I need more education to replace this optimism with skepticism and ward off any false expectation I may have.
Do you mind me asking you what the nature of your grief is?
Comment by VictimByGender — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 2:49 pm
My grief is simple dude - False allegations of DV and Child Abuse made to a corrupt family court who maliciously court protected 6 people.
Oh make that 5 now, as the corrupt filthy De Family Court
had to discharge one the protection orders
so my daughter could come and live with me. She said to me;
“what a terrible sad story dad, why don’t they listen to you.”
Justice John Hansen said in his Judgment 12 April 2006
High Court registry P J Burns v NZ Police ;
“I have every sympathy for the predicament in which the
appellant finds himself,the essential thrust of the appeal
is his contention that the original protection orders were
invalidly made.”
Comment by dad4justice — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 4:23 pm
In 1996 I had a Christchurch award exparte custody of my son aged 6 and daughter aged 2 and an exparte protection order to my wife on the basis of 2 things.Exparte means I was not told of the hearing.Never given a chance to expose the fact that the whole thing was based on lies.
1.I had threatened to take the children to Australia(this was bullshit)
2.I had uplifted the childrens passports.My wife had my sons passports and the daughter had no passport
The legal workers involved an Ashley Kinsman and a Carolyn Bull(now a Family Commissioner acting for the state) knew very well that I did not have the passport of my son and knew my daughter had no passport.My wife later told me these lawyers came up with the story and she went with it.
Armed with these orders my wife stole the children away to the North Island.The protection order is still in place.
Whenever I try to get it removed the judge von Dadelson alway says things have not significantly changed since the original granting of the order.Well they couldnt could they.There was nothing to change.I have tried consistently since then to father my children but recently a Lawyer for the Child got involved an absolutely appalling character called Maria Hamilton of Napier,and persuaded my 12 year old that she did not have to have contact with me.The court refused to assist because of Hamiltons recommendation.
Boycott the family caught and the legal workers(of which I used to be one).They are all scum creating disharmony and leeching off the state and unfortunate parents.Practice unconditional love.Do not fight.Negotiate and mediate solutions.If you are unsuccessful doing this then just maintain consistent and loving correspondence to your children.They will come to you when they realise they should.Fighting in the Family Caught only provides work for their staff and money for the legal workers.It does not help you even to win in the family caught.Only breeds resentment
Comment by whanga — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 5:33 pm
Whilst I sometimes criticise the familycaught’s competence and values, they are not always completely useless.
They are paid as if they were professional judges and they should be ruthlessly judged against this standard.
For all of the self congratulations from legal workers and the familycaught judges, they are not easy or straightforward to deal with.
For all of the moaning, by women and men, about the familycaught, I do believe that much of customer’s problems come down to insufficient and poor quality preparation. {Others have said this above too.]
The familycaught legal workers certainly don’t help the public to represent themselves. Why should they sacrificse their own pockets?
The judges don’t particularly act against self represented people. I would say that they act against all parties and for the paramount benefit of legal workers, including themselves.
The main problems caused for the public by the “judges” lie in their deviations from following legislation, different and deviant values and erratic and poor skills at weighing evidence. These are all incentives to solve problems by honest negotiation, outside the familycaught room.
Negotiation does take effort and time. More than some parents are willing to put in. It will cost some money. This is what life is made of and always was.
The simple saying: “Look before you leap” should contain a lot of wisdom.
Learn from those who have been through the same and got out the other side. There are 100s of thousands of them in NZ.
I would even suggest that if parties had done enough preparation, they wouldn’t consider going into the familycaught room at all. It’s not worth the risk or the cost.
The worst problems arise when one party says, “I won’t negotiate, I will get what I want in familycaught”.
As the years roll by, they eventually realise that by playing hard ball, they lost many many small things elsewhere, that add up to far more. Such as support, goodwill, assistance when they need it. By then, it is far too late.
Eventually, the children may come to quite a harsh judgement too.
Besides, if I have ever taken out a lady, if I see her playing these types of games with an ex-husband, then she just doesn’t seem so attractive….
The only way we will solve these brutal destructive battles, is by friends and family (not familycaught!) opening their mouths and saying “That is not on. You owe it to your kids, you owe it to yourself, to share and to negotiate in good faith.”
Best regards, MurrayBacon.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 2nd May 2008 @ 11:11 pm
My psycho wife refused to negotiate at every occasion. She stopped me seeing my kids for months, in NZ the law is just about preserving the governments money.
If you have psycho wife too, she will be backed up by the euphemistically names “lawyer for child” to do whatever she wants.
Some countries are turning against this and giving fathers equal share, but NZ will be the last country to change, you can be sure of this
Comment by Martin Swash — Sat 3rd May 2008 @ 3:16 am
Look before you leap = preparation.
“family law” in New Zealand has degenerated into the “legal” best interests of the children.
To “communicate” to a familycaught, that seeks to promote the “legal” best interests of the children, then you have to speak, NOT the children’s interests as seen by competent and successful parents, but the “legal” best interests of the children.
If you look into what the NZ familycaught sees as the “legal” best interests of the children, then you will see that it is substantially irrelevant to the care, development and protection of human children.
This drift in the familycaught, away from competent parenting, started when no-fault access to divorce was illegally generalised to no-responsibility operation of the familycaught.
Parliament has not seen fit to place working restrictions relating to relevant professional qualifications or integrity for appointment as judges. Similarly, there are no ongoing requirements for fitness, either in terms of health, or mental health or integrity.
The systems that are now in place are all managed from inside the “profession” without any consumer input or accountability. These are showcase placeholders, yes we can tick the box that we have accountability. These systems are expensive and valueless in every sense of the word. Legal workers are now the only “professional” group, that still conducts their complaints systems without consumer input.
Good parenting requires parents accepting responsibility for their actions and in due course, teaching their children these sames attitudes and skills.
For the familycaught to act as checks and balances, it would have to be capable and willing to assess responsibility and to put accountability onto wayward or incompetent parents. This is less than optimally profitable for their own pockets, so they go for the jugular - to maximise their profits.
Their profits are maximised by supporting the weaker parent, weaker financially or in parenting skills.
This support guarantees to the children, the worst that these parents could provide for their children!
This approach also puts the maximum pressure onto the wealthier (possibly more competent parent) to spend money on legal workers for appeals! What a smoothly put together system. And the children cannot effectively complain about their interests not being protected, because their representative is now another Government funded legal worker.
Look before you leap - Why would any sensible caring parent ask for help from a group of people like these?
Only because they are told that there is no option!
But there is, to a large extent.
The best real world protection, for warring parents children is for the families on both sides to communicate and keep together a communicating fabric around these children. To actively promote honest negotiation and to not tolerate or support perjury for short term “gain”.
This also takes the warring parents being willing to rebuild their relationship with the ex’s family, through thick and thin. In the long term, it is worth being patient and taking a bit of crap. (You may have put out some crap in your time, I know I have!)
If you want to know how good the mechanics at a garage are, would you ask them?
Its the same with the familycaught. Listen more carefully to what their customers say about their service, the speed, the quality, the lasting value?
Certainly, flash trash TV shows don’t show the real world of dealing with legal workers and paying their bills.
If people expect the familycaught to support competent parenting, then you obviously haven’t done your homework about them! I know their is a lot of hurt when people have had unrealistic expectations of familycaught.
Some issues, the familycaught handles with some competence, but is still random and unpredictable, like a jumpingjack firecracker. Their taste for other people’s money isn’t unpredictable, their line of extortion/thievery goes back centuries.
If your homework tells you that your problem is in this territory, then go to the familycaught. If it isn’t, then explore all alternatives.
If you want this gambling experience, go to the familycaught, with money you don’t want to have to spend.
If you want to protect your children, build and maintain communication between your family and the ex’s. It doesn’t happen quickly, like most things around bringing up children. It is worth the pain and trouble invested, it doesn’t cost money.
I do recommend people to apply to familycaught, where appropriate. A little more often, I challenge, have you really exhausted all alternatives? People may say they have, but looking at those who succeed and those who fail in parenting, the success does go to those who are well prepared, consider all options and follow through with saintly patience. Occasionally, it is worth following both options together.
(I apologise for any slur to the honour of sex workers, I certainly haven’t intended any.)
Best regards, MurrayBacon.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sat 3rd May 2008 @ 11:43 am
Just a quick note to Dad4Justice.
I can understand how you must feel. I got no idea how you feel.
Even when children are wrongly accused, they buck hard.
For an adult, with proof, logic and heaps of common sense, it must be atrocious.
To have your own children manipulated and turned against you when all you want is their best interest could easily be compared to daily crucifixion.
Going to the family court, as Murray and Martin say, should be the last possible option. Often, most people find themselves dragged into court.
For you to feel the way you feel must mean that you’ve exhausted all avenues.
I am sorry for your pain.
Comment by VictimByGender — Mon 5th May 2008 @ 7:53 pm
My children too have been turned against me. My now 18 yo son was starting to have a relationship with me and I had to be very careful in what I said to him and how I handled it.I phoned him every week for the past 2 years to try and build up a trust, made frequent one day visits after driving 5 hours each way.He actually stayed at my house for one night (the fist time in 10 years). His mother started to get annoyed at how close we were becoming then out of the blue he phoned me accussed me of unspeakable things his mother accused me of some 10 and 12 years ago and said not to contact him again.
It’s astounding the control some “felines”have over their children.
Comment by High Hope — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 11:59 am
“Life is difficult - - so what?”
Comment by cb — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 12:25 pm
BLAME THE GOVERNMENT…, NOT THE MOTHER,
BLAME THE POLICE… NOT THE KID
THE MOTHER HAS NO VALUE IN THE EQUATION, IT’S ALL GOVERNMENT DICTATORSHIP
RE: It’s astounding the control some “felines”have over their children.
Comment by cb — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 1:41 pm
THE PEOPLE SPEAK OUT AGAINST THEIR DICTATOR, ‘HELEN CLARK’ ON http://WWW.MENZ.ORG.NZ
(DO NOT USE THE CHILD OR THE MOTHER AS A RED HERRING, ATTACK THE DICTATOR)
For some scholars, like Joseph C.W. Chan from the University of Hong Kong, dictatorship is a form of government that has the power to govern without consent of those being governed, while totalitarianism describes a state that regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior of the people. In other words, dictatorship concerns the source of the governing power (where the power comes from) and totalitarianism concerns the scope of the governing power (what the government regulates). In this sense, dictatorship (government without people’s consent) is a contrast to democracy (government whose power comes from people) and totalitarianism (government controls every aspect of people’s life) corresponds to liberalism (government emphasizes individual right and liberty). Though the definitions of the terms differ, they are related in reality as most of the dictatorship states tend to show totalitarian characteristics. When governments’ power does not come from the people, their power is not limited and tend to expand their scope of power to control every aspect of people’s life.
Comment by cb — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Hi cb,
A more useful approach is to look hard at ourselves and take respopnsibility for the situation we find ourselves in. If you have truely done that then the way ahead becomes much clearer.
Comment by allan Harvey — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 5:09 pm
Hi cb,
I am struggling to follow some of your posts. I think if we look at ourselves and take responsibility for our part in getting into the situation the way forward becomes much clearer.
Comment by allan Harvey — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 5:11 pm
hindsight is a wonderful thing, that comes with experience, yes - i am a little abstract, with my bursts of emotion…
Comment by cb — Tue 6th May 2008 @ 5:29 pm
cb…
the mothers that drag us and the children into the family court are proactive. THe fathers that fight and the system that ostracize are both reactive. We can blame ourselves and the system for our own reactivity but cannot shift the blame away way from those that initially started the entire process.
Comment by VictimByGender — Thu 8th May 2008 @ 9:56 pm
I have noticed that policeman kill their wives ten times more than aveage men, maybe they know something we dont. Five years in jail may be a price worth paying to dispose of these evil bitches, there are no problems with money, DEATH to evil women
Comment by ZubbaZubba — Thu 8th May 2008 @ 11:09 pm
Murray, I was rereading your comment (#44) above.
It sums the entire system up. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.
I have more proof than necessary to prove that my ex has no idea what the children want nor does she care.
I know she does care about being on the DPB, getting child support, sitting at at cafes and restaurants while the children are babysat, going out on a date while children are babysat, fighting and trying to take any minute of care away from me to give to a babysitter.
I do have to laugh though. She used the children to request from the LFC to allow them to go on a holiday. The LFC vouched for her through people he knew.
I got arrested for refusing to let the children go. The entire exhibition was carefully crafted to go on a holiday with a new boyfriend under pretense it was with someone else.
The kids are worried they may have a new dad. That will be dad number three in 2 and half years.
She even went as far as dropping the kids off at the friend to elope with new boyfriend while telling the children their daddy is in jail.
The system wants to give full faith and credit but only to the mother. In the mean time, the list of aberrations continue. The children are not protected.
I have no right but to babysit them when they are not with the mother and pay child support.
Comment by VictimByGender — Fri 9th May 2008 @ 9:33 am
Hi VictimByGender, she sounds like scum and i think those poor children would be much better off without her in their lives
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Fri 9th May 2008 @ 11:11 am
For all that talking may have value, time is always drifting by.
The real world requires action, for positive changes to happen. I do my best in discussions, but I am very uncomfortable whilst time drifts and maybe the necessary actions have not yet been completed?
It scares me, when talk substitutes for positive action. I prefer to try to help, than to talk into the breeze.
I know that talk can help people back onto safe ground, but it should never be a complete substitute for constructive action.
Children’s development (and our own lingering deaths) will proceed whether we are doing anything useful or not. Legal workers may delay and bill, but for us to make the best of this life, we should close life-wasting issues and get on with enjoying life, as if there were no legal workers.
Every week we delay, there is at least another Hague abduction return application made. The number of international abductions may be up to three times this. The number of children ever returned isn’t half of this, less for children returned to fathers.
Each week another 240 children are unilaterally removed from where they were settled with both parents, to start more sheep=parent fleecings.
There are strong incentives to be aware of these risks and to try to protect your children and yourself from these situations. Like all con-tricks, the lazy, greedy and gullible make themselves the easiest targets.
Honest sharing of information is the antidote, certainly not dastardly deeds kept in the dark.
Remember, it’s your money they are after.
One example of people being mislead by dishonest information, is making agreements when one parent will shortly leave the country.
Familycaught judges frequently mislead themselves, or allow a legal worker to mislead and stay silent. Once the parent has left New Zealand, then frequently much or all of the agreement becomes totally unenforceable.
However, by the time the other parent has realised this, they may have effectively signed away their rights to see the child, or put themselves into a poorer financial situation, than they would have, if they had known the truth about the weakness and lack enforcement of agreements made in a different country to that in which the children now reside.
Judges may run around the countryside, saying that they are looking into improving the enforcement of agreements made overseas.
Bit, will this ever happen?
Think it through, if you were a “judge” and a situation arises about enforcing an overseas agreement, freely entered into, would you enforce it or would you rather say it is a new situation and lets hear it all again from the beginning. Oh no, it is anew situation, agreement has been allowed to let the children leave, so now we can forget that, it is now 3 week old ancient history.
Lets hear it all again, in my countries caught.
While one of the parents still has money or fleece-ables, the hearings can continue, it’s in the child’s interests, that we extort the parents!!!!!!!
This is why it is never wise to flout success in a secret caughtroom. It’s like waving large amounts of cash in a dark alleyway.
Technically, this is an unmanaged conflict of interest situation. These are disastrous for victims, in any arena. It doesn’t have to be unmanaged, such management of conflicts of interest is centuries old knowledge. Most of our legislation was written to protect people in such situations, just not in familycaught!
Best regards, MurrayBacon.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 9th May 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Hi Guys, you all really need to listen to Murray as he is a real intelligent guy and he knows what he is talking about, for as long as we sit back and cry to eachother, our poor children are in the hands of evil and suffering, we should be fighting for whats in their best interests which is to have us as their parents taking care of them rather than these bad people neglecting and abusing our poor innocent children
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Fri 9th May 2008 @ 8:40 pm
Hi, sorry, i just want to say we celebrate Mothers day and Fathers day but what about Caregivers day, are caregivers not important people? are they even people? i am a person but i would never steal someones child
Comment by Hadi Akbari — Fri 9th May 2008 @ 8:46 pm
Victim by Gender.This woman sounds like a bit of a shocker but anyone can grow up and change! Have you told her you are sorry for everything that happened between you recently?Have you told her that you are so grateful that she brought your beautiful,wonderful children into the world? Have you thanked her for the great times you two had in better days? Will you send her a thank you card and some flowers on Mother’s day.
Love her.Unconditionally.Then things should start getting better.For your children’s sake.
If for some reason things do not get better at least you will have tried your best.
Comment by Whanga — Sat 10th May 2008 @ 10:00 pm
I did not expect this kind or reply and I am thankful to all of you. Murray, your points are succinct and straight.
Some women will hide behind a burning bush just to get away with shuning their own conscience. The problem I find is that, as long as we are before the family court, she will hurt them willingly to gain an unfair advantage.
Any agreement I’ve come about has been turned around to request and swindle more time away from me.
Every action I’ve taken to make the situation right (compromising) gives her a wider access through the door.
Nothing seems enough for her thirst for vengeance. Her biggest issue is stubbornness and ego. She does think her shyte does not stink. She also believes she can get away with murder as long as there are men that lust and women that can be paid to represent her.
The problem I have is that she is a vindictive woman and filled to the brim with spite. When she left NZ, she left me with almost 30,000 in debt and swore never to return.
I’ve made her come back when I went to pick up the children. Now she has to justify herself for returning. All she has are baseless lies to justify her actions and more to explain her future treacherous actions underfoot.
The sad part is that it does not have to be. I did not want to move away because our relationship was hitting rock bottom. Moving away would have meant more stress for everyone. Sometimes, in a relationship, the best thing to do is to put your foot down and say: “No, that’s enough”.
It also means that whatever the battle was, it is already lost.
Well I did. She said: “Sweet, we are off to a bbq!”. She took the kids and Farked off. In her mind, I had no choice but to pack and move. In fact, that is the biggest present she has ever given me. My peace of mind.
Loosing one’s own children for over two years while being accused of the most heinous crimes in the world is something to raise a dead man into a vindicative ghost.
In my case, no matter how painful the experience has been and still is, I cannot deny the fact that it has taught me more about myself than I’ve ever imagined.
“From the depths of your sorrow come your greatest joys” –K. Gibran
Among many others, the virtues of celibacy are quite delicious to contemplate.
I am now free to dedicate myself to my children. That is what I want. I know I am willing and capable of it. She also knows that. She also knows that the children love me and want to be with me. That is her fear.
In her mind, she would prefer to give them a new daddy than to let them be with their own natural father. That is what is irritating. She is fighting a war that I have no interest in.
I should be angry and vindicative too but I cannot be. It is all about logic. The kids need both mum and dad. It is not about me. It is not about her.
I think she is unfit but I am sure my children will disagree. They both love their mum the same.
She may think I am unfit too. But it is the same again. The children love me and want to be with their daddy.
They need to be settled, focus and loved in a good and nurturing environment. Their childhood has already been stolen. What else will be stolen before she hears the sound of peace?
The family court may sometimes be the only avenue left to find justice. I am hoping that in time, she will stop fighting because, if this goes any longer, I will have to give up.
Not because I do no want to fight. But because the fighting itself is not good for the children.
I am hoping it will not come to that. She is wanted by Interpol and many are suggesting that I “dobb” her in. That would solve my problem.
Even that, I cannot contemplate “dobbing” her in. It would not be right for the kids to have their mum in jail. Close friends of mine are so irritated by my fate that I sometimes find myself placating them instead of them placating me.
I know someday, the truth, in its majesty, will stand out.
Whanga, she has given me the greatest joys in my life as well as the greatest pains. I am thankful to her for everything she has given me. I am also thankful to her for every thing she has taken away. More importantly, she has set me free from this love that shall forever echo in my heart for her.
I only wish her well. I know someday she will wake up from this self inflicted nightmare. When it happens, she will be in the shoes she put me in when she left.
Comment by VictimByGender — Mon 12th May 2008 @ 10:59 am