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Wed 2nd February 2011

False accusations in custody cases

Filed under: Gender Politics — Julie @ 11:14 am

Scotland’s DIVORCED fathers falsely accused of abusing their children during custody hearings are demanding a change in the law.

Pressure group False Allegations Action’s spokesman, Eamonn Kelly said: “There are doting dads who have been falsely accused of the worst kind of abuse against their own children. It’s calculated to destroy a father’s relationship with their child forever and to wreck his personal life too”¦”¦ We’ve noticed that when the claims are proved to be groundless, there is no investigation. The police do nothing, the courts do nothing.”

This is a good article
IMO because they’ve been given a lead”¦”¦. A Scottish Government spokesman said: “The introduction of a specific criminal offense in relation to false allegations of sexual abuse in child contact cases would require primary legislation and full consultation and analysis beforehand.”

For knowledge, I decided to contact the Law Society, Ministry of Justice and CYFS to see if there is something happening in NZ. Always enjoyable chatting with people but the end result is this”¦.

Proposed legislation that would have an impact upon the Family Court is listed below”¦”¦”¦..

The UK has already tackled the problem in the criminal courts with women now-a-days being sent to prison for false rape allegations and if you’re interested in seeing just how bad the problem is, why not visit the False Rape Society – very interesting yet sad, sad, sad reading.

So what about NZ?

If anything, we can talk about it?

71 Responses to “False accusations in custody cases”

  1. Phil267 says:

    Very interesting post. Thanks for that Julie and for the links. I find it incredible that people can make such cruel and potentially life ruining allegations against someone and when it is proven not true then not be held accountable for their actions. This is a form of horrendous family violence but I doubt it would be counted in the statistics. Couldn’t this also be seen as a form of child abuse also as it is attempting to alienate children from a very vital and very special (usually the father) part of their lives. Physical violence between parents is seen as child abuse because of the impact on children so surely the violence of false accusations must be categorised as child abuse also.

  2. John Brett says:

    Hi Julie- glad you haven’t left the building altogether.
    This is what happened to me- this was when I discovered RIGHTEOUS ANGER! I saw that my children were being harmed because they were being told that their dad, who they loved and trusted, was really a bad man. I fought back with a passion- started by marching into the Police station and asking to be arrested- if not now then when! I also wrote a strong “Love letter” to each of my children, telling them how much I loved them, and would never harm them. This of course set off alarms, and charges of improperly contacting my children blah blah blah. When it finallly came to Court, my criminal Lawyer advised me to plead guilty because ‘you can’t defend these charges’ I dismissed him, acted for myself, and pleaded not guilty.
    The Salvation Army man at Court tried to persuade me how nice it would be if I pleaded guilty because they have wonderful courses for “men like me”.
    The Police prosecuter tried to persuade me how nice it would be if I pleaded guilty, I asked him about his children- very proud of his boys- then I asked him if he fiddled with them- end of conversation.
    Eventually my children were (accidently) given a chance to speak their minds- and made it absolutely clear that theur dad loved them, would never harm them etc. Case collapsed.

  3. John Brett says:

    Now I feel nothing but contempt for:
    1 my stupid ex- whetever her name was
    2 The Social agencies that conspired with this
    3 The ‘mens rights’ manginas who go along with all of the man-blame stuff (people such as Man Alive) and haven’t the guts to face up to the real abuse.

    Now two of my children are good friends, and two hate me for what they imagine I did. I have no contact with my grandchildren for my own safety.

    John Brett

  4. Julie says:

    John, I didn’t know this had happened to you, and I’m sorry that it did. I’ve met you and I have to smile because I can just see you in that courtroom.

    Similar happened to me…… I feel I know what you went through.

    Here’s another remarkable father. He quit his job, packed his bags and rode around Europe for 3 years to find his child.

  5. Phil267 says:

    Sorry to hear what you have been through John, and Julie, and good on you for standing up for what is right even when you clearly had forces working against you. I am amazed your lawyer told you to plead guilty and that you cannot defend the charges. Talk about presumed guilty rather than innocent. Judging by the involvement of social service agencies then wouldn’t this situation have to be classified as state sponsored child abuse. Not to diminish the effect it had on you also. A very tragic irony is that the ‘child abuser’ got the children.

  6. sajer says:

    This is exactly what happened to me, cyfs investigation, police investigation, criminal charges, suspended contact with my girl and all. Well cyfs case closed, not that they told me tht had to find out via official info request, criminal charges dropped at oral evidence hearing, contact resumed via family court after. 9 months, but still not back to shared care we’d had for 3 years, still waitin for s60 hearing in fc nearly 2 years later, and my pocket $80k lighter, fn joke of a justice system, and don’t get me started on cyfs and the cops

  7. julie says:

    I can’t think of what would be good enough to write to you. I’m sorry to hear this is happening to you.

    don’t get me started on cyfs…

    That might be hard since we’ve got a cool project coming up. I can’t believe the things I’m hearing about CYFS and our government and can’t wait to see it brought out publicly.

  8. julie says:

    Ditto. To add, the Salvation Army thinking this is no big deal worries me.

  9. Mr. Anonymous says:

    And then women wonder why many of us don’t want relationships, marriage or children.

  10. John Brett says:

    Its been made pulic for years Julie- have you not been listening to men screaming!

  11. John Brett says:

    Hi Phil- where have you been? Did you not realise that the legal standard has been for years “Guilty until proven innocent”
    This is not just some conspiracy theory- Police ‘Best Practice’ manual says that in any DV incident, ALWAYS ASSUME THE MAN IS GUILTY AND REMOVE HIM. If you still don’t believe me, just listen to the “Are you OK” ads on TV.
    Unless you are really Phillipa, then you are assumed to be guilty, they just have to catch you!

  12. Phil267 says:

    Hi John – I am fully aware of the legal standard and in my experience, both personal and professional, this man equals guilty standard is more than just a legal standard it has become a social cultural phenomenon. I was just showing empathy for what you and others have been through. It appears you got the wrong impression and took it as ignorance on my part. Also, there is a lot of talk about the affect on men (rightly so) but I also wanted to stress the child abuse aspect of it also.

  13. noconfidence says:

    Julie; I’m looking forward to anything that would dismantle cyfs; anything isn’t worth talking about!

    Unfortunately; cfys is a joke; and the family court a sick joke. I’m waiting for my day in feminist sow court where I can cross examine the report writer that ignored all the written facts before her and pointed a finger in my direction and wrote ‘there is no evidence to suggest.. but…’ in her S.132. Yes you old bag I am living for that day when I will make yours hell. And you psychologist who used that s132 to make a s133 and draw conclusions which had no basis in reality. I’m going to rip you apart. I wish it could be televised so you could all watch it.

    2 years my kids have had to endure no resolution from the feminist sow courts. My day is coming soon. All you lawyers that tried to tell me I wouldn’t win; you got fired and I’m still there, still fighting. I’ve got you family court workers to admit you don’t even follow the rules. Justice doesn’t exist in NZ. And for my ex, you may have gotten away with assault on me and our daughter because we have police who cant accept that a man could be assaulted by a woman; you will lose in court and I long for that day. May you rot in hell thereafter along with your conspirators.

    There. I’ve have my rant. I feel better already. And yes; all of the above is true…

  14. julie says:

    To John B,

    I only came here 5 years ago. I did ask women journalist from TV to newspapers if they had met you men, and they said, “Yes, they tried to speak with you but they couldn’t understand the anger”.

    I don’t know why?

    But, I am trying to be helpful. I promoted this site to others and I’m an organiser for presentations giving voices to others and advertising it.

    I do appreciate all I hear because I learn as I go.

  15. John Brett says:

    Hi Julie- where did you come from? The same sick charade is acted out all over the Western world. Which female journalists did you speak to, which ‘you men’ were they trying to talk to? If it was Jim Bailey I can understand their frustration, but most other activists are fairly coherent.

  16. julie says:

    John, you remarried and made a success of yourself after the bad things happened to you – in a way you could say you are semi or fully retired. With due respect, I haven’t yet raised my children fully and they’re relying on me to spend time on their issues. I also want to get back to work and put some effort into political issues I have concerns about WITH other like minded men and women.

    I have complete faith that the men’s movement will be successful in all it’s areas including the family court and will be helpful where I can. Other than that, I don’t need extra stress in my life and with due respect you’re pissed off with what happened to you, I can’t make your feelings my problem at the moment. I hope you can be understanding and I’ll see you around. 🙂

  17. John Brett says:

    Hi Julie- NOT married, NOT semi retired, and I had to raise my children by remote control- my youngest daughter was only 10 at the time. The challenge so many separated parents have is the other parent filling the children with hate, and trying to oppose their parenting. I think I did very well with two of my children, and failed with two.

    “Pissed off” is a condecending trivialization of how I feel- imagine if something terrible happened to your family- a death or equivalent- and someone said you were just “pissed off”.

    I have never asked you to make anything of mine ‘your problem’- I don’t think you could cope with much of it, I think you lack the experience, what could you do that I have not already done far better?

    Go well

    John

  18. Mits says:

    Hi John
    been there done that and understand exactly how you feel.

    As for Julie I think the other thread about the DPB touched a nerve, specially for someone championing the rights of solo parents and to my jaundiced eye she now seems to be bent on filling the pages with this aimless posting looking to move the DPB out of the current view to a casual visitor.
    Sorry if that seems unfair Julie and its only my opinion.
    Guilty until proven guilty is an easy bet when you dont have to even bother with the proof portion of that statement. Accusation is the proof to these twats.

  19. julie says:

    Thanks John, thanks Mits, your words are valuable to me. (in a sick way, but still…)Thanks for the ‘go well’, John. I wish you the same or better.

  20. JimBWarrior says:

    Amazing how the self righteous seem to hold court here – 2 of the leading GateKeepers all in one hit – God help us – Jim

  21. Julie says:

    Isn’t it funny how divided we all are. But who cares? Just get the job done and get out if you can, is my imput.

  22. JimBWarrior says:

    My longitivity tells me that once I would agree with this statement of yours Jules – Today I believe YOU, your GateKeeper mates and your naive followers do far more harm than good and have been a major negative factor in keeping Protesters OFF the streets, Causing communication between likely Protesters to be named as SPAMMERS to shut them down, Taking FAMILY Orientated Websites Down thru various means of skulduggery, feeding misleading info to MENZ and Paul’s News and all along supplying useful info to those who appose the FAMILY – The BAd Stats grow and YOU are part of causing that – Why were there NO Protesters to help with CYFS Demos from MENZ and Paul’s News? – Onward – Jim

  23. Julie says:

    I don’t even know if this is you Jim. But I always ask, “Where do you propose to advertise this or where do you propose to ask for some input?” Menz is a dead end. You don’t get support here, end of story. Pauls news is made of men who have been at the coalface for along time. They work where they are at and how they can after all these years. Just because they’re not at the beginning stage doesn’t mean they’re enemies. They can’t come back and be protesters so leave them where they are, is my opinion.

    There’s lots and lots and lots of fresh blood. Why are we being silly and ignoring them just to make a fuss of the old school boys?

  24. Hans Laven says:

    Here comes the hypocrite again, labelling anyone who dares to disagree with him in any way as a “gatekeeper” while Bailey himself strictly controls everything that is published on his own web pages.

    In fact, Bailey is lying when he claims that various contributors here have been “gatekeepers” regarding his contributions, and his claim that people here are spies passing on information to enemies of the fathers’ movement is without evidence. A generous explanation would be that his paranoia and impaired judgement has led him to fabricate such nonsense. While he criticizes false allegations in the Family Court, he shows no integrity or care in making false allegations about other men.

    What Bailey fails to mention is that the only reason his contributions have ever been restricted on MENZ, and not by those he falsely accuses, was that he refused to keep to the rules for contributors even after being challenged about this.

    Personally I wish Bailey would bail out. His divisive, destructive behaviour simply disrespects and discourages others as they contribute in ways they are able to. He is an embarrassment and one of the biggest impediments to the effectiveness of the men’s and fathers’ movement in NZ.

  25. John Brett says:

    Jim- I’ve checked behind my gate- and can’t find you there- so I’m not stopping going anywhere or doing anything.
    Julie- when you say “Isn’t it funny how divided we all are” I don’t agree- I think we are all working for the same results. It’s only when Jim Bailey comes on the scene (and I have seen this happen repeatedly for some 15 years) that we have this dividedness.
    Jim is just like an arguementitive drunk- the words mean nothing, it’s just the arguement he is after.
    On the subject under discussion, Jim has nothing to contribute, he has no experience of false allegations, he had a clear run through the Family Court. I sometimes think that it would be worth a benefit top-up to shut him up. A “shut-up top-up”. On the other hand, what do we, the productive sector, owe him? I think the gate that Jim is trapped behind is of his self made prison of hatred.

  26. dad4justice says:

    I am a victim of false allegations of sexual child abuse and domestic violence. That was 10 years ago. The hell continues. The very sinister and sick system destroyed my credibility as a human being. The Family Court has stripped me of my dignity. All based on false alleagtions to which I can prove. The Family Court does not want the truth out in the open if the bloke is a decent father who is the victim of malcious false allegations. It is both sad and sick. My poor children.
    I thought children deserved the truth? I thought a Court system was based on the truth and not built on lies. Sadly I was very wrong.

  27. Darryl Ward says:

    NOOOOOOOO! Not the the gatekeeper conspiracy theory again!

    The gatekeeper conspiracy is one man’s delusion. Nothing more.

  28. Alastair says:

    Pardon Jim? Neither Darryl or I were there. Has some one knocked us off our perch?

  29. Alastair says:

    Full support Hans. The best thing for the mens movement (And the Anti CYF movement) would be for Bailey to loose his Internet connection (Again?)

  30. julie says:

    Sadly, you have many companions…..

    Wrongfully convicted rapist is freed after 17 years.. and hit with a $110,000 bill for backdated child maintenance

  31. Hans Laven says:

    Actually, the state waived its half of that bill but his ex-wife apparently still demands her half. Such compassion. I wonder if she ever brought his children to visit him in prison?

  32. Skeptik says:

    Meanwhile someone should pop over to Stuff and tell reporter Sarah Whyte about the ‘family’ ‘courts’ impact on daddy time.

  33. Skeptik says:

    Finally getting righteously MAD alongside many men.
    It seems there’s at least one female political writer who is in the process of removing the blinkers.

  34. Skeptik says:

    Julie,
    Sarcasm won’t lead to finding Tracy McMillan at Comedy Central.
    Try forced laughter if it makes you feel better though.
    For those just entering the thread, Julie and I are discussing a provocative piece of screen writing and follow up web commentary from a woman who is echoing the thoughts and feelings of a hell of lot of men.
    To read her male-empathic views which are resonating with many men

    go here.

    Tracy McMillan is one of the screen writers for the hugely popular TV show Mad Men which regularly gets more than two and a half million viewers watching each weekly episode.
    In my book someone like her is uniquely placed to be very political.Especially when she follows up with commentary in such widely read online news sites as The Huffington Post,again widely subscribed to with a readership of 600,000 people daily.
    Bear in mind also popular TV programs like Coronation Street have an impact on people’s values about social issues AND also there’s been NO huge backlash in the USA or anywhere else to either the Madmen TV show or her Huffington Post commentary.
    I think that even a few years ago such views as Tracy McMillan has expressed would have been unimaginable.
    To me it seems hugely significant that any modern day woman would move away from what culturally has been for several decades now an automatic blame males attitude, and instead dare to criticize women over thier shortcomings.
    Whether you agree with her views or not she is a woman who deserves enormous respect for doing so.
    She is proof writ large that the feminist narrative which has controlled our lives for a long time now is breaking up some more under the bright gathering light of facts and common sense.
    As a trend spotter I can sniff the winds of mighty change happening because I don’t have my head buried in the ground Ostrich style.
    The air up here is refreshing.

  35. Julie says:

    I jumped out after reading the thread she wrote (married 3 times) but beforehand was interested because I read about her as a person, author, comedian, but not political.

    I don’t personally care about men dogging women. It’s been going on since I was born and from the feedback I get from women, woman have always been tough on women and still are. We haven’t even accepted widows let alone single mothers.

    It’s kinda funny for feminists have always been the minority group yet I didn’t fully understand what was going on when I went looking for somewhere to send men for support. I get soooo many complaints from men about the men’s movement. They say the men have no idea what it’s like to be a father but instead just hate women. I think the men’s movement is in big trouble when me and other moderate men and women make a splash that will turn into a ripple and then a wave. You’re going to get women who get feminists and men who are actual dads and my gosh, I don’t think either side will know what hit them. Good luck to us and good luck to you. One of us is good but not both of us, and time will tell.

  36. Julie says:

    Wow, I didn’t know. But if I am honest with myself, I am not surprised.

  37. Julie says:

    Enough now. You do what you must and I will do what I must.

  38. Skeptik says:

    Married three times

    – therefore I think Tracy McMillan can arguably lay claim to being an expert on how westernised women by the millions have mucked up marriage feminist style.

    woman have always been tough on women and still are. We haven’t even accepted widows let alone single mothers.

    Oh right. That would explain the millions of women we see regularly out in the streets in protest at there being millions upon millions of single mothers throughout the anglosphere then wouldn’t it? Gosh the din they make in protest! I can’t hear myself think can you?

    It’s kinda funny for feminists have always been the minority group.

    Oh yeah? Not in my neck of the woods (New Zealand) for the past few decades they haven’t. Many don’t openly call themselves feminists these days, but I sure see they behave like feminists.

  39. Julie says:

    Skeptic, you forget that millions of women have chosen something to care about from missionaries to looking after the poor, caring for animals to making a difference in their chosen job plus, plus, plus.

    I want all women who read this site and have a male child to know you are part of the men’s movement just by raising your son. If you have a husband, and you are supportive of him, you are considered the best ever from MRAs (men rights activist and advocates)on this site. I am doing my part by raising my sons and another single father’s son who just happens to be doing well until he realises single mothers are not his nurse and ends up in hospital again when he will be instutionalised for good. You can only do your best to look after men and they must do the rest and when they don’t – you are not to blame.

    If by chance, women have some extra time, why not write about men and the unfairness they face in life.

  40. Julie says:

    But if you are a single woman and have extra time while chasing your career, why not tell other single women how bad things are for men. You won;t get a man for doing this but you’ll make bitter men happier.

  41. Skeptik says:

    Skeptic, you forget that millions of women have chosen something to care about from missionaries to looking after the poor, caring for animals to making a difference in their chosen job plus, plus, plus.

    I don’t need reminding that SOME women are missionaries and care for animals.
    I’m simply delighted that Tracy McMillan is challenging millions of women to step outside the confines of feminist male blaming thinking in order to become attractive to men.
    It’s an absolute breath of fresh air which I think only a very brave woman could introduce to other women such is the pervasive level of unconscious misandry amongst countless entitled western women these days.
    I really hope masses of western women get beyond their reflexive feminist defense mechanisms (denial, projection, minimizing, distorting etc) and hear what Tracy McMillan has to say about her sisters.
    I know Tracy’s Mcmillan’s message resonates deeply and powerfully with me that much. Wow! A women who get’s it that much!

    I want all women who read this site and have a male child to know you are part of the men’s movement just by raising your son.

    Oh Pllllllleeeeeeaaaase!
    Seriously are you stoned right now?
    That’s a complete fairytale right there.
    Go speak to the millions of men who over recent decades have been kicked to the curb by their womenfolk and denied even scraps of access to their kids.
    Go talk to the sons who’re being battered and scorned by their solo moms.
    I think you insult terribly by demeaning and denying the experience of a massive number of men and boys here.
    The denial is amazing! yet Oh! so tragically familiar from countless discussions I’ve had over the years with other western women who appear to think they can speak with authority for males.

    If you have a husband, and you are supportive of him, you are considered the best ever from MRAs (men rights activist and advocates)on this site.

    I’ve been visiting this site and many other Men’s sites regularly for something like ten years now and NEVER, EVER seen that expressed by a man posting at MENZ. So I think it’s fair to say that’s more mere wishful thinking than reality. I’m open to being corrected though by a huge influx of men posting here saying that being a husband means their Men’s Rights Activism is automatically supported!

    I am doing my part by raising my sons and another single father’s son who just happens to be doing well until he realises single mothers are not his nurse and ends up in hospital again when he will be instutionalised for good. You can only do your best to look after men and they must do the rest and when they don’t – you are not to blame.

    If you’re sharing the kinds of views you’re posting here with your sons, then I definitely think you’re NOT supporting men’s rights but rather undermining them!

    If by chance, women have some extra time, why not write about men and the unfairness they face in life.

    The best idea you’ve expressed in this conversation so far I reckon!
    If more women were to do that it would validate one of Tracy McMillan’s main points! It might certainly help many men to overcome their wariness of women built up from decades of hearing the mantra they’ve gotten over the years from countless western women – Men are shit….Men are rapists…. Men are shit….Men are batterers ……Men are
    D
    I
    S
    P
    O
    S
    A
    B
    L
    E

    Not just one 40 minute TV show episode and a follow up web article challenging your sex either Julie!
    No way! that’s minor stuff compared to what western men have endured I reckon.
    And I’m not even talking of fair criticism either.
    I think of it like this….
    Try to imagine several decades of life being demonized daily with looks, gestures, harsh words, demeaning books and articles, gossip, TV ‘comedy’, legislation, social convention and rhetoric.
    No! Don’t loose that feeling of despair Julie! Keep with it for 1 whole minute….5 minutes…..an hour……a day…….2 days!……..a year….a decade…….another decade……..and…….and…….and…… I know you want to pull away from it…….to use distractions like sport, isolation, food or whatever but No don’t surface for air yet Julie…….stay with the loneliness…..the despair at being so hated and tormented just because you’re male……and……..and…….another day…another week….another year …..and……..and…..and…….
    And finally. Gasp!
    FINALLY!
    Finally a woman like Tracy McMillan emerges in the west to demand women by the million wake up to how millions of men are now believing the message they’ve received over and over the years – that as far as women are concerned they, being male they are nought but disposable shit.

    Now lest you’re tempted to go off on a little journey where you try to speak for men thus avoiding hearing them. Don’t. Instead ask mature guys of above average IQ around you to read this post and how much it resonates with them.
    I think you’ll find amongst those who’ve not shut down too much emotionally they will concur and thank you for sharing news of Tracy McMillan with them.

  42. julie says:

    Dear Skeptic, I read on a ‘Voice for men” that MGTOW expect to go mainstream and marry women after 2020 0r was it 2030?

    Either way, let’s catch up in another 9 years.

  43. Skeptik says:

    Julie,
    That’s absolutely bizarre!
    Men Going Their Own way don’t marry women period. Not this year, or next year, 2020 or 2030.
    But thanks for the plug prompt. I reckon many men will benefit from heeding the call of MGTOW as one way to ameliorate the vicious effects of feminism.
    For those interested this might be good place to start.

    Here

    With the kind of comment you’re displaying above I’m beginning to wonder if you’ll be around in 9 years time.
    Have you relapsed?

  44. julie says:

    Thanks for your comment Skeptic. I know a number of feminists who think marriage is to go too. I’m glad both sides agree on a number of issues.

    I’m too busy for this crap. As I said, we’ll see.

  45. Skeptik says:

    I know a number of feminists who think marriage is to go too. I’m glad both sides agree on a number of issues.

    You misconstrue. You appear to have lapsed back into feministhink again and don’t seem to be empathizing with men at the moment but reacting.
    For it’s obviously not marriage per se which many men have shunned as they become MGTOW (Men going their own way). No, to think that is wrong.
    It’s FEMINIST no fault and shaft the man at separation time marriage 2.0 that sensible men avoid like the plague.
    Such state sanctioned terrorism suits many a woman as husband gets replaced by the state as breadwinner and becomes the stepfather.
    Result massive fatherlessness and it’s attendant social ills. That’s not something I think anyone who cares about society should call “shit I don’t have time for”.

  46. julie says:

    Skeptic, with due respect, don’t you think it would be better if men’s prenups are honoured in a court of law rather than the government deciding what’s a fault, for them?

    For example, some men don’t like their wives being obese and consider this a good reason to divorce. Under the old ‘no fault’ they wouldn’t be able to do this yet under their own prenup, they would. (By the way, it’s a far fetched example but it gives the idea for what I mean)

  47. Skeptic says:

    Julie, I’m not sure I can entirely understand what you’re getting at.
    I can however state with confidence and certainty that from listening to thousands of guys online and offline across the Anglosphere (including many in NZ) the consensus is if you are a man a pre-nuptual agreement isn’t worth wiping your backside with.
    Many men have made the mistake of believing the pre-nup they signed in good faith would be upheld in courts.
    To their dismay they found out the hard way that chivalric/feminist jurisprudence overruled the pre-nup and they they were out of pocket twice.
    Once for paying for a useless piece of paper, the second time by being financially raped by sweet cupcake and her legal cronies.
    Even worse the thing they cherished more than any amount of money – their close relationships with their kid/s got cruelly smashes to pieces.
    If you look at it without the feminist payback time filter and be truly empathic to men I think you’ll find MGTOW makes a whole lot of sense.
    I believe Tracy McMillan does a fine job of explaining another salient issue (female entitlement attitude) which links to the view I express in this post.
    A rare woman indeed to move far beyond feminist groupthink on gender issues.

  48. good grief says:

    Skeptik, you sound lame and unintelligent.

    Julie, I love your posts – balanced, well thought-out, and honest.

    Will continue to read as the whole debate is rather interesting.

  49. good grief says:

    I should add that plenty of men manage to happily and healthily go about their lives & maintain strong, mutually respectful relationships with women.

    Perhaps a bit of self-insight would go a long way, yeah?

  50. Julie says:

    Skeptic, I deleted my last comment. I want you and others to know that I think you are better than me and I don;t want to know any of you anymore.I really want to be a WGTOW. My anti social side is alive now and I want to be left alone and I’ll leave you and others alone.

  51. Alastair says:

    Skeptic,
    You are the biggest single reason I don’t come on MENZ!

  52. Skeptik says:

    Good grief,
    Yes plenty of men do manage to happily and healthily go about their lives & maintain strong, mutually respectful relationships with women.
    My point is that in our current feminist zeitgeist plenty more don’t.
    Perhaps a bit of self insight would go a long way, yeah?

  53. Skeptik says:

    good grief,
    Issuing insults isn’t stating an argument.
    So you reckon I’m lame.
    Whoopdeedoo.
    Seeing as that’s the FIRST comment you’ve directed my way.
    No introduction.
    No stating of reason.
    Just a verbal flailing of arms.
    To me it just means a nerve of yours has been struck that’s all.
    Can you actually say what you so violently disagree with, without stooping again to senseless insult?
    If so we can have a mature discussion.

    Wow! some folks are apparently really disturbed.
    Threatened by the idea that a lot of men are turning off women for their own safety.
    Well, so be it.
    Some ideas,as sensible as they appear are so new, they take time to adapt to.

  54. Skeptik says:

    Alistair,
    You are free to come and go as you please.
    I owe you nothing either way.

  55. Hans Laven says:

    For me, Skeptik is often the only contributor on MENZ providing insightful, worthwhile writing and ideas.

  56. Hans Laven says:

    “good grief”: Thanks for gracing MENZ with such a scholarly, well-reasoned contribution in stating:

    Skeptik, you sound lame and unintelligent.

    Julie, I love your posts – balanced, well thought-out, and honest.

    You have clearly taken the debate here to whole new levels of analysis and original thinking. It must have taken you a long time to craft this masterpiece from your obviously superior mind, so comprehensively yet succinctly elucidating the arguments put forward by Skeptik and Julie. We are all now convinced by your solid refutation of everything Skeptik wrote and your masterful analysis showing Julie’s much better-considered arguments to be valid.

    Like her suggestion that Family Courts will respect and uphold prenuptual agreements that might favour men if their wives become obese (or that might favour men in any circumstance whatsoever). Yes, I can already see judges ruling: “madam, you entered into this contract as an informed and intelligent adult and you have now breached the contract by becoming obese, therefore I rule that your husband is no longer bound by the terms of the contract, meaning he no longer has to give you 75% of the property he owned before meeting you as other women can normally expect to get. Accordingly, I reduce your share of his assets to 74%. Let that be a lesson to you. Stand down.”

    And thanks so much for explaining many of the other statements in Julie’s recent writings, a full grasp of which had eluded my (admittedly limited) comprehension, such as:

    I think the men’s movement is in big trouble when me and other moderate men and women make a splash that will turn into a ripple and then a wave. You’re going to get women who get feminists and men who are actual dads and my gosh, I don’t think either side will know what hit them. Good luck to us and good luck to you. One of us is good but not both of us, and time will tell.

    And

    I want all women who read this site and have a male child to know you are part of the men’s movement just by raising your son.

    And

    I am doing my part by raising my sons and another single father’s son who just happens to be doing well until he realises single mothers are not his nurse and ends up in hospital again when he will be instutionalised for good.

    Yes indeed, thanks to your detailed explanatory elaboration I now understand all these writings, their exacting logic and relevance perfectly. I so look forward to being blessed with more generous gifts from your prolific intellectual stable.

  57. julie says:

    Look guys, why don’t we all go our own way and just do our best. I’ve appreciated what I got from men online and that the men put up with me. That’s all that should be said.

    Some of us have got together as a team to pursue things offline and some others have got together online – Hans and Skeptic are a good team and they have a following and will build in their time just like us offline. Also, every day men build websites. We can all find like minded men and women.

  58. Allan says:

    I have always valued your contributions Hans.

  59. Julie says:

    I have appreciated both Hans and Skeptic’s words online. IMO, things are changing but it just takes time for their words to be a reality and work – always someone has to do the hard yards. (work)

  60. Hans Laven says:

    (manipulative gesture #624) “I don’t want anyone to disagree with me or to hold me accountable for what I write, so I’m leaving now, forever. Nobody for at least 15 minutes has affirmed me as a woman for pretending to speak for men who can’t seem to get it right themselves, for allowing my opinions to coincide with the men’s movement occasionally, or for providing my wisdom and major political negotiations to their cause. So that’s it, I don’t want to know any of you any more. You won’t know what you lost until I’m gone. Goodbye cruel group.” (jumps off cliff)

    (lands on ledge, climbs back up). “Hi, I’m back!”

  61. Hans Laven says:

    note I said “often”…

  62. Julie says:

    What is your problem? To be honest, I don’t want an answer but I’ll come back within a week to find out.

    I may be part of a service, but I’m not a Psychologist nor a Counselor.

  63. Hans Laven says:

    Well, it all started when I was only half the man I am now, just a sperm floating around in my father’s testicle (I didn’t know right from left then so I’m not sure which testicle, but there’s a pretty good chance it was either the right or left one). One day as I was happily swimming around hoping to get to compete with 6 million other sperms to race towards my mother’s (or anyone else’s) egg, I had a traumatic experience: I overheard my father disagreeing with my mother’s opinion. Well, being exposed to that episode of domestic violence damaged me forever, or at least the half of me representing my father’s genes. Am I going too fast?

  64. Skeptik says:

    Thanks Hans.
    I’ve been trying to raise the level of awareness of Mens issues and the level of debate here at MENZ.
    Good to have you back and being so supportive.
    However I must be honest.
    Recently I’ve been thinking that maybe I would abandon MENZ as the overall general level of debate here of late seems so terribly poor.
    I know I stand open to being accused of intellectual snobbery for saying that, but so be it. I’m simply being truthful to myself and readers saying so.
    I’m getting much more interesting views elsewhere.
    Not always views I agree with either.
    But views which nonetheless challenge me to think about Mens issues and grow in understanding rather than giving me the intellectual equivalent of junk food – poorly written nonsensical gibberish and simpleton sandpit name-calling devoid of reason.
    I know I often apply labels to certain folks myself.
    The difference being I offer reasons for doing so.
    Case in point would be Neville Robertson who I dislike intensely as I think he sold out out to feminism long ago whilst masquerading as reasonable, fairminded and objective.
    Just do the numbers and count the number of postings though from contributors.
    As much as it’s a heavy burden to keep turning up at MENZ and posting news and views on Men’s issues I’m thinking that if I didn’t MENZ may simply become yet another female dominated space.
    Your thoughts?

    One parting thought, seeing as this thread relates to false allegations.
    I can’t help but smirk at the irony of being told I’m lame and unintelligent! And that
    I’m (gosh!) in big trouble for not being ‘moderate’.
    It’s like a microcosm of what I see happening so often on larger stages in life – a guy or group of guys make their Mens Rights views known (in this case Men’s right to go their own way and for their own safety forsake close heterosexual relations) and some other folks come along and issue false allegations and insults simply because they can’t handle Mens’ Rights as an idea.
    It’s simply too much for them.
    They spin out and start issuing bizarre thoughts and/or relapse and regress into childlike senseless name calling.

  65. Allan says:

    Hi Skeptic and others,
    I totally agree name calling is silly and when I do visit I appreciate the leads to other reading and the issues you raise. It is good that MENZ can provide such a forum but does it have to exclude views to do that?
    I agree with your view that Neville Robertson has been captured in his thinking but he is not the only deluded academic or deluded person. I suspect you have that view of me as well Skeptic and that is fine by me.
    I think repeated deriding of people is somewhat akin to name calling. Probably I have been guilty of this myself but I would prefer MENZ to be a site of strenuous debate but also to be tolerant of the fact that many of us have different and diverging views.

  66. Skeptik says:

    Allan you wrote –

    I agree with your view that Neville Robertson has been captured in his thinking but he is not the only deluded academic or deluded person.

    Good to see we’re in substantial agreement there.
    I’m also very glad to see another person offering that kind of public critique of Neville Robertson as I think it’s important people are warned about him and his feminist ilk.
    I think the ideology of misandry they spread whilst being very lucrative for them personally is very detrimental to relations between the sexes and social harmony overall.

    I suspect you have that view of me as well Skeptic and that is fine by me.

    If you’re the Allan I’m thinking of then I will always have an issue with you supervising access of fathers to their kids – when those fathers have ended up your supervisees WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. In my view you either support a system of abuse or you starve it. You can’t have it both ways.
    If you are the same Allan and as you say you’re fine with that, then that just tells me that just like Neville Robertson, you in your own way are also very cozy in a feminist enclave and can thus afford to be so blaze.
    That’s hardly surprising to me given the depth and extent of misandry/feminism in NZ.
    It also points up how much more work there is still to do to create healthier social conditions for males in NZ.

    I think repeated deriding of people is somewhat akin to name calling.

    I think repeated deriding of certain people is unfortunately totalyy necessary, totally akin to name calling and a completely virtuous action.
    Where would we be today if folks hadn’t called a spade a spade in days gone by? Living under the yoke of Nazi Totalitarianism no doubt.
    Possibly living in male only Gulags by now if the Marylyn French, Andrea Dworkin, Cathryn McKinnon and Susan Brownmillar’s of this world hadn’t been outed by judicious and oft repeated name-calling.
    Despite the negative connotations attached to the word ‘deriding’, when the ‘deriding’ is backed up by pertinent facts, solid logic and humane empathy it is a positive social good – something that is often missing in relation to attitudes and conventions supporting current day misandry.

    Probably I have been guilty of this myself but I would prefer MENZ to be a site of strenuous debate but also to be tolerant of the fact that many of us have different and diverging views.

    I know there are sometimes very divergent views here at MENZ.
    I’m powerless to stop that fact from occurring. Nor would I even want to. On occasions I’ve learnt valuable lessons from some of those other views.
    It also makes sense to me to pursue relentlessly an argument against dangerous ill-thought-out and deluded inhumane views.
    Indeed if I am to be a person of good social conscience and generativity it’s both my duty and natural inclination to speak out against such. Hence I see no reason to tolerate someone else’s views just for the sake of tolerance.
    I think that’s a deluded and very dangerous road to go down.
    I acknowledge the natural fear that most humans have for ostracism (especially in a small place like New Zealand) and hence think overcoming it to speak out and be a tall poppy is an act of bravery.

  67. Alastair says:

    I saw an interesting critique by hans a few years ago of one of Neville Robinsons papers.

    It is worth all studying the science of critical thinking and statistical analysis. The propaganda of the feminist movement and its sychophants falls to bits!

    It is equally a very old adage, there are lies, damn lies and Statistics!

    Lenin said once “If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes accepted as the truth.”

    Think about it!

  68. julie says:

    I have to insist on deleting your comment Alistair. I really don’t want the extra challenge, lol.

  69. David Hardy says:

    Most of fathers entering the secret twilight zone of the family courts will lose contact with their children. Many fathers, faced with false allegation after false allegation, simply give up contact before court, because they can not afford to lose everything in legal costs fighting it out. Cheaper just to shut up and paid the child support.

    This is worldwide disgrace.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYBbwKWtJOE&feature=share

    (Two activists scaled a building directly opposite the Minshull Street Crown Courts in Manchester in protest against the treatment of the two campaigners who are on trial nearly 3 years later for the handcuffing of MP Margaret Hodge, back in November 2004, both faced trial.)

    It is called divide and conquer. Government policy and law sets Mothers against Fathers, Women against Men. In doing so families are divided, children stolen and assests and money are passed on the the rich. Power against the people is maintained. We all become salves to the system. All taxed and controlled. William Lynch was right.

    Who was William Lynch?

    Listen to his speech and ask yourselves, are you a slave to the system than now controls us all? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e_ztT3Ybqs

    We are all humans on this earth. Black, white, yellow, brown, young, old, male, female. What the hell are we fighting about and why? There has got to be a better way than this!!!

  70. L Robinson says:

    There must be some sort of accountability to accusations. Maybe a name must be given, but confidentiality applied of course.
    Recently my son was accused of neglect by a market researcher, and although she did not enter the house, informed the police the children were running around in human faeces. Apparently, the smell of the earth works where a house is being built, at the back of the property, gave her this belief.
    The police were there within a few minutes and had no concern, and Cyfs after a initial guilty until proven innocent interview, regard the complaint as suspicious.
    What really gets me is this lady again phoned Cyfs after I complained to her supervisor, and insinuated sexual molestation, telling Cyfs the child told her something, that the child is not capable of saying.
    This market researcher, tried to remove the child herself at the time, asking to take her for the afternoon(which of course my son said no,and apparently told CYFS she is an ex social worker.
    I cant believe there seems to be no accountability, and that people can make up stories, waste everyones time (not too mention the stress factor), and get away with it.

  71. Scott B says:

    And yet when I complained about my childrens living conditions to Cyfs, they said they couldn’t do anything cause I didn’t have hard evidence! Go figure!

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