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Tue 18th September 2012

Child Support – unfair doubling up of support payments where provision has already been made via voluntary agreement

Filed under: Child Support — rawkusworldwide @ 7:43 pm

I welcome any constructive feed back or suggestions that could assist me with the following:

The background is that I have 4 children, the youngest is 23 years of age and resides in France. I have been working overseas and recently returned to Australia which has been my primary residence since 96 when I left NZ. I had been back in Australia for 2 years when I received a liability from Child Support NZ for $89k. I was aghast as I had paid child support directly to my ex wife for all the years my children were dependent. Upon investigation it would appear the liability goes back to 2002 for a 1 year period and from Dec 05 – May 08.

CSA have cancelled all the penalties and left me with a liability for approximately $12k (very good of them) based on the fact that I had never received notice of the liability.

My ex wife applied for child support assessment as she went on a benefit and furnished CSA with an old overseas address of mine in spite of maintaining regular contact with me via phone and email. She has been collecting the benefit and not declaring the child support payments I made to her as income.

Now here comes the fun part… Under Section 65 of the Child Support Act ‘an application for child support formula assessment allows that a voluntary agreement is deemed to have been cancelled from the date an application for formula assessment is received’.

So, now I have had to try and find records dating back to 2002 showing payments made to her. Banking records only go back 7 years so the earliest I have been able to provide is 2003 onwards. I have made application for an administration review under Ground 9. I have only just found out after lodging the application and providing evidence of bank statements with transactions showing payments made directly to her albeit not for the 02 liability, statements from my 2 children (CSA do not accept statements from children as it is deemed to be unfair to put the children in the midddle, even though the children are only providing factual information and are at the time consenting adults), that if found in my favour, the liability will not be wiped but I could be re-assessed at the minimum CS amount. This is not acceptable as I have already provided this support.

I have spoken to my ex-wife who does not want to assist as for her to do so would be admitting to benefit fraud. Which brings me to another point. I asked CSA if they report evidence or allegations of benefit fraud to WINZ and they have advised no, they don’t but if I want to DOB her in, I can. Unbelievable that IRD does not share this with WINZ. So if the Review is in our favour, it supports our case that child support was paid whilst ex-wife received benefit but they will not pass onto WINZ! Yet I could have a snitch on somebody down the street and report them for unsubstantiated benefit fraud and it would be investigated!

The 2nd part of this travesty is that the for the 05-08 period, as I have been assessed by CSA at the minimum CS formula, I cannot appeal as an admin. review or make application to Family Court. My only re-course as offered by CSA is to take Civil Action against my ex-wife which would still leave me with an active debt with CSA.

I have also provided evidence that during the 05-08 period my son was working and flatting. I have provided my sons pay slips and an email request by him for bond and the date he went flatting. The response back from CSA is that even if he went flatting and received support from his mother then he is still dependent and I am liable. My ex wife did not provide any support, I supported him financially and furnished an email to CSA with my sons request for bond and financial support, my email reply agreeing to this request and an email with him furnishing his bank account details. Seriously, if he is flatting and working and I am still liable, who receives the child support??? Him? His mother? Does this make me the custodial parent as I have been providing support to him?

Even though he was working, paying board to his mother prior to flatting, CSA still deems him dependent as he was on a casual contract. His total earning gross for the 18 month period = $29k as evidenced by his pay slips.

This was all set in motion by my ex wife going on a benefit and not giving CSA my correct contact details nor advising me of a change in our agreement. I am now having to battle the bureaucracy of CSA with the potential outcome being that my wife may be entitled to receive a 2nd bite of the cherry through her dishonesty and the constraints I am now find myself under due to the provisions of the Child Support Act.

This case is not about me negating my responsibility to provide financial support to my children. I have well and truely provided this as evidenced by my adult children.

I welcome any constructive feed back or suggestions that could assist me.

118 Responses to “Child Support – unfair doubling up of support payments where provision has already been made via voluntary agreement”

  1. Non custodial Dad says:

    You asked for constructive feedback. Sadly, I doubt that you will get much! Scrap the CSA (a regular contributor here and knowledgeable on CS matters) will hopefully pick up the thread and comment.
    Also, try writing to Close Up (TV1). They are considering doing a programme on CS in NZ to balance one they did recently about Aus based Dads. Best of luck… you are going to need it.
    As for your son, if he was not at a registered school and was working (even if living with his mother and younger than the cut off age of 19) then CS is not payable. Get hold of the copies of IRDs leaflets on CS. They give plenty of information that might be helpful. They can be gotten off the website or direct from IRD on request.

  2. Down Under says:

    It is IRD policy to still collect child support for children aged between 18 and 19 years if the child is living with his mother and working less than 30 hours a week.

  3. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear rawkusworldwide, the benefit and child support fraud aspects is surely a police matter? I know that the police prefer easily solved cases, to ones where more investigation is required, under their outputs agreement with Government. If local police refuse to accept your complaint, then you can make your complaint in a letter to the Police Minister. You may still have to resist pressure to withdraw your complaint….

    I have heard similar stories, regarding NZ, UK, France and Australian child support. While police try to avoid prosecuting these situations, then there is an open license to all Custodial Parents to carry out these frauds.

    I would guess that the total sum involved in NZ would be in the low $10millions.

    Best wishes, but the only solution is to be cautious in the first place. The Child [and spousal] Support Act is written, to make this type of fraud easy to commit. Some women work collectively, to assist in the creation of these frauds.

    You may be able to pursue recovery through the District Caught, if you have good quality and sufficient evidence. This caught is open to the public, so is usually a bit more careful than familycaught$. As this is a situation that affects many men, maybe we should work collectively, to try to drive through a workable solution. I am happy to help with this. If you would like to pursue this, contact me (09) 638 7275.

    Best regards, MurrayBacon.

  4. Divorced Man says:

    As a first advise – BE CAREFUL with any information you give IRD admin officer. They might use it against you. Even if they are nice to you, and verbally promise you things or give you ideas how to nail her – DON’T trust them. Think twice before you give them information. I will have more time to read your case and give you some tips – I have been in similar situation myself.

  5. hornet says:

    Does not matter what you tell them, they never listen to a word anyway – facts and financial accounts mean nothing – you are not allowed to be a full time father caring for your kids in the eyes of these people – there minds are made up before you even speak.!!!!!!!!

    After being refused a personal meeting I get the token phone call – I asked – before we start this call – have you read my submissions stating my case – read the facts as to my income and my current circumstances – ANSWER – no I have not.

    I ask – So how can this be a fair and impartial interview, if you have not even afforded me the time to read my submissions before talking to me???? You gave my ex a personal meeting – a sit down over a coffee and a nice chat in your office, and you absorbed all her bull shit – not based on any fact – just what she tortured out of the child by having her spy on my family when she visited!!!!!!!

    The response – speak now or not get another chance……that is what SHE said to me. This is what sort of Lawyer the system is using to make determinations which have a HUGE impact on your life and future.

    As a father and as a DAD – You have no show – and based on her assessment under those conditions – I can be arrested, we have already had property seized – extorted demanding payment or they sell the items and they ruthlessly start the break up of another good family forcing us to to pay maximums when I no longer earn that salary. Talk about deliberately destroying families by placing undue stress on them. They dont give a fk.

    That is what you are up against – a totally corrupt, discriminatory, biased one sided shambles – and based on that one report created in those biased circumstances – everything else you have to deal with in the future is based on that biased discriminatoy report taken in those circumstances – you will then be hunted to the ends of the earth to get the money – all based on that report generated by one biased person. How can this be allowed to continue??? it certainly is not fair and impartial, and it not based on fact – no if you want to prove the FACTS you have to take the system to court – and they know most dads dont have the money – having been bankrupted with family court lawyers bills – just trying to see there kids……..this is a deliberate method to force you to pay more than you should – because to prove otherwise will cost you more money, and they know you wont have it to fight it. Corrupt. Not family supportive and not helping dads or fathers at all in any way.

    If they were genuine in these reviews – why do they not actually have a group within child support who go out and actually review the submissions to see who is telling the truth – visit the father, see first hand how he is living and what he has had to go through just to see his child – they dont and they will not because it would reduce there income and expose the scam they are perpetuating on fathers.

    The more desperate Govt gets trying to trim costs and devoid itself of responsibilities to save more money to pay off banking debt – the worse things will get. ( take the recent 400 Million saving snatched off those on a benefit – taking more from those who need it most ) Do we see politicians or council workers taking a pay cut???? Never.

    It must stopped.

  6. rawkusworldwide says:

    Hi thank you all for your feedback. Very much appreciated.

    I find it unbelieveable that my youngest child is 23 years old, lives overseas and I am having to deal with this situation due to my ex wife’s dishonesty coupled with the Child Support Act and its legal interpretations which do not take into account the situation I now find myself in.

    My experience of CSA is that you have to be tenacious, they make mistakes, keep meticulous file notes of everybody you speak with, don’t rely on the online website on your account as it does not correlate with all the automated paperwork you are sent. I can see why Dad’s that are working full time just do not have the time or energy to deal with this juggernaut and why depression is common with non custodial parents.

    I am going to do everything I can to fight this case because it is so unjust and wrong.

    Great to find a forum where I can share and get support as I need all the help I can get.

  7. Non custodial Dad says:

    HELP!!

    Does anyone have any up to date information on the upcoming changes to the Child Support formula specifically: the level at which the living allowance might be set (new level or current merely uprated by an inflation factor as in previous years?): what might be IRDs estimated cost of raising a child in age group 15 to 18 years. Thanks.

  8. Tracey says:

    Just a thought.
    I have brought up 3 children on my own from a young age.So far I have been 18 years doing this.I do not know how much it costs to do this.I do know it is every cent I earn.My mortgage has not really decreased in that time due to remortgaging to keep driving a viable car,pay for orthodontic work and so forth.When there was not enough i found ways to save more or earn more.That is what you do when you have such pressing responsibilities.That is what you should do.
    However in that time my children s father has worked ,not worked at all,worked part time,worked casually, budged off his mother, budged off his partner and so on.At present he is working casually and budging off mum and partner.He has had the ability to earn far more than i have been able to.He has never made any of the effort i have made to support his family.He pays the minimum of Child Support.
    Just another side to the story.

  9. Lawless Bob says:

    Hi Tracey.
    So why arn’t “my children” with their father in shared care 50/50? Does he enjoy regular contact, or has he had impediments placed in his way to acheiving this? Was he consulted fairly regarding the orthodontal care? (important discisions regarding health)
    Did he give up because things were made so hard for him?
    Were child support assessments fair and reasonable, according to the IRD formula (another discussion in itself whether that formulae is fair and reasonable), or was he subjected to the psychological and financial rape of inhumane Admin Reviews? When he wasnt working, was this his choice, or unfortunate circumstance? Did Child Support accrue penalties that basically are beyond most men’s abilities to meet?
    You repeatedly label him a ‘bludger’. Is this you general attitude towards him and co-operative shared parenting?
    Three children? I presume the child support would be about 27% of his income over the threshold. Add in 30% tax, ACC levies, etc, and that’s going to be in excess of 60% of his income gone before he eats a meal or provides himself a tent to live in.
    Is his moving back home to his family his only way of surviving financially?

    If I just read your ‘side to the story’, I would see him as an absolute loser. However I’d like to know his side before making any conclusions.

  10. hornet says:

    Sadly Lawless Bob, the issues and questions you ask are are ALL VERY VALID and REAL. Only those who have been subjected to the system will understand – and thats a problem – demonstrating how destructive the system currently is on fathers to the uninitiated is difficult.

    Tracey taking nothing away from you for what you have done – great job raising a family on your own.

    But the system is very detrimental to fathers, and is one of the reasons so many just walk away, give up, lose motivation to work and the result is they dont want to know any more. Its sadly the only way many dads finally get some peace.

  11. Skeptic says:

    hornet @ #10.
    Amen to what you’ve said to Tracey bro.

  12. hornet says:

    Credit where credit is due – there are some fantastic women / mothers out there, like my current wife – if I had not met her, I would very likely be horribly biased towards women in general after the family court ordeal.

    Perhaps if more good women/ mothers, married to great dads – who have seen the horrors of the family court – should also be speaking out about it.

    Its interesting talking to good mothers married to dads who are or have been through the family court disgrace – all of them I have spoken to are EQUALLY disgusted by it – because they too have seen first hand – how discriminating and biased it is towards good fathers.

    What is interesting is the system packages up good Families ( Dads who have re-married to good mothers ) and deals them an equally harsh blow – in fact for me – it has been very hard to keep a family going – against all the crap the family court system dumps on to you, and the draconian methods employed by child support DO NOT SUPPORT a MAN/FATHER moving on with a new life.

    If these horrible mothers were flushed out for what there are – instead of being encouraged and supported – to behave the way they do by such a corrupt system, it would be better for all of us ( men and Woman ) to move on.

  13. Tracey says:

    Where to start?
    Lawless Bob :-Yes he was approached about the Orthodontic work.His reply was that it is not fundamentally necessary and therefore he was not going to help.It is true my son would not die without the treatment.However his looks and the function of his mouth would be affected.The father had orthodontic work himself as a child.Never mind I still went ahead with the work by yet again remortgaging house.
    He was never denied or did he seek shared custody.To be frank it would have severely impacted his social life if he had.Maybe that is why he did not seek this.Not all fathers want the day to day care of their children.
    He does not live with his parents he just gets money from them to supplement his very part-time job.
    Actually he is a ‘loser ‘as his three children have grown up without a lot of influence from him and he has really missed out.So have his children.That was his choice not mine or theirs.Only he would choose to make out it all happened to ‘him’.That is why he is a loser.Meanwhile I have just got on with it all.No time to whinge,no time to blame.Way too busy for that with only myself to rely on.

  14. Skeptic says:

    Tracey,
    The men are either winners or losers dichotomy is inane, although perhaps understandable coming from a woman when you understand something about female hypergamy.
    It’s also blatantly hypocritical to come over as all unphazed and grown up saying you don’t judge but just get on with things – then go on to call your ex a loser!

    Do some thinking.

  15. mits says:

    seems to me that when Tracey and her man parted all those 18 yars ago, Tracey parted with the man but remained firmly in a relationship with his wallet and earning potential and is here bagging the guy as she feels her entitlement should be higher.
    Having the kids isnt enough she feels the need to come onto a site like Menz calling her ex a loser while admitting he pays child tax but not at the level that would be required to supply her with a new car when she needs it.
    18 years later and the only thing she has to complain about is that the ex isnt earning what she feels he should be to keep her lifestyle at where she would like it to be
    I agree tracey there is always another side to the story.
    Mits

  16. Tracey says:

    Mits
    You no nothing.What a presumptious idiot you are.If I had relied on my ex where would we be?Read the first letter.

  17. Mits says:

    Tracey you may be right, I may know nothing
    I did read the first letter though, and based my presumptions on what you had written.
    What I understand from your comments is the guy that you got together with and produced three children with, has had a varied work history after you two split up. And it is your belief that as well as being a loser and a bludger, he has also not met your expectations of his true earning potential which has meant that you havent received the full entiltlement that you believe you should be getting.
    To that end you have resorted to calling him names and even my observations have resulted in my being an idiot
    What part of the “its not OK campaign” did you miss to find name calling is not OK.
    Dont worry I havn’t taken offence, rather it has reinforced, in my mind my original summation of your comments

    Thanks

    Mits

  18. LawlessBob says:

    I tend to agree Mits. Tracey and husband together were long enough to produce 3 children – presumably in that time (and however long prior to that) he was not a loser or bludger, because otherwise why pro-create 3 times??. Once would be a mistake. Twice would be stupid. Three times defies definition.
    Or, husband changed dramatically only after Tracey left him (consensual choice, no doubt) .
    In which case that change was presumably completely unforeseen, unpredicatble, no forewarning or inkling whatsoever.
    I await husbands side to the story.

  19. Skeptic says:

    Tracey,
    Bandying around insults like ‘loser’ and ‘idiot’ isn’t convincing folks you’re the nice innocent victim of the narrative you wrote about is it?

  20. Hornet says:

    Here are two scenarios for assessing Child Support.

    Lets call this process the Logical, Commonsense, easily managed option.

    1. Use FACTS – Like accounting records filed by Accountants which Identify a Fathers INCOME or Factual PAYE records from an employer.
    2. Apply the Child Support Formula using these FACTS – insert the Factual information in this formula and you have a uniform, easily managed system which is consistent and fair to all using it.
    3. Allow for a immediate changes to the amount required to be paid – if the paying parent has a change of INCOME – loss of work, business etc.
    4. Base all Child Support payments on the Amount identified by the formula – using the factual INCOME information.

    This is what I signed up to in Family Court property settlement agreements. That is what I expected the Child Support system to work from as part of those agreement.

    Anyone who supports any other system – is only doing so to create something which would be UNFAIR, OPPRESSIVE, DISCRIMINATORY, and BIASED- and which has been deliberately designed to devoid the creator of any accountability or responsibility – and deliberately designed to be difficult, expensive, complicated and drawn out for anyone to oppose.

    and yet that is just what we have currently here in New Zealand. And this abhorrence effects ALL PARENTS – Individual Fathers MORE So, followed by FATHERS RE-MARRIED to MOTHERS, and then in the odd occasion where MOTHERS are paying FATHERS child support. – Not sure how many that would be.?

    So lets look at the OTHER System and the expectations forced on you in the real world applications of Child Support here in New Zealand.

  21. Hornet says:

    So lets now look at the reality here in New Zealand.

    Lets call this Option to assess Child Support – the COMPLEX MOST DIFFICULT OPTION – which will create the most conflict and concerns for parents – and drive parents away from there kids – and persecute them for the rest of there lives.

    1. Go to the bottom of the legal barrel and drag up all those lawyers struggling to make a living in the real world. The most envious, hard done by, most socially inept you could find, put them on a very low Per Client income so they are forced to work to a time schedule – not a quality schedule in service delivery.

    2. Allow ANY INFORMATION – Ignore any facts – what use are they. Do NOT refer to any family court agreements relating to Income and Formula Assessment. Allow Hearsay, opinion – any information you can get your hands on – and if you want to stoop really low – even allow the use of children to Spy on there parent and cobble that information into your assessment –

    ( Ignore the Care of Children Act – the Convention on Childs Rights, Human Rights on Discrimination – because you can – because the writers of this legislation built in protections for you ) Create the biggest picture of ENVY so you can maximise the punative decisions which will be allowed.

    3. Allow all this information to come from someone who has a big axe to grind with the person who is going to be effected by this decision. In fact add more weight to what that person has to say over the party who is going to be effected. Ignore Facts.

    4. Build into this decision making process – very tight time frames so that those who get decisions against them, have very little time to object.

    5. Make the objection process as difficult as possible.

    6. Make the objection process Costly.

    7. Make the objection process Complicated and time consuming so as to make it less likely anyone will OBJECT.

    8. Ensure that the legal challenges will be complex – even for the legal profession – this is a comment currently from the industry – that child support legislation is extremely complex and difficult – even for lawyers.

    9. Discriminate with impunity – oppress any objectors and allow bias in all decisions. If anyone wants to object – force them to take the system to court to prove FACTS – the TRUTH which could have been inserted into the easy formula to assess the child support requirements.

    10. Enforce heavy penalties on all those who cant pay, who refuse to pay, because the system is so corrupt in its practices, and ridicule any person who opposes these decisions – Arrest them, Restrict there Freedoms, Sieze any property they may have left to pay these demands. Take cash directly out of there bank accounts without telling them, even when they are trying to support other children and or another family. Force hardship on that other family as if they do not exist.

    11. You see if you are going to be subjected to such harsh penalties from a process – that process should be ROBUST, based on FACT, actual Provable Evidence, not the opinion and hearsay of a person who hates you.

    12. The current system is making criminals of good parents, it is destroying families, distancing fathers from there kids, removing a fathers right to have some respect and ability to actually care for his children when in his care. Any person subjected to the current process would oppose it. It is not until you are subjected to it, that you understand just how offensive it is.

    13. Even in the criminal justice system – you have the right to present FACTS, you have rights of appeal, and can challenge hearsay and opinion – but not it seems for parents in the family court or facing Child Support payment Decisions.

    14. Base all enforcement decisions on this oppressive, discriminatory decision process – which is not based on FACTS remember – but lies and hearsay from an ex partner who dislikes you. Re-enforced by the bottom of the barrel lawyer who is disgruntled in life anyway – and who will always Support the alleged underdog regardless of the facts.

    15. Every attempt to object or expose this system – is shut down by hiding behind this process, claiming legal privilege or claiming they cant speak because its before the courts. Every complaint is diverted away so the issues cannot be discussed – with all those in charge of our legal and political system – hiding behind process, protected from discrimination, and oppression in there decisions. I now understand why family court rulings are not allowed to be published – not to protect children, but to prevent any other members of society every hearing how they will be treated if they ever separate.

    16. So how can we as a society allow any person to force the second option on us? Why is this system currently so oppressive and unjust and allowed to continue? Is it because we have govt who do not want any accountability or responsibility or any costs associated with single mothers? IS this current system a source of income for govt? There must be a reason, because no one in there right mind would support this current system unless they had an alternative motive.

    The latest changes proposed to this current system – are more ENFORCEMENT – MORE PENALTIES, MORE OPPRESSION. Are you kidding me.

    I read blogs here going back years – and the same issues are effected good parents, fathers more so, year in year out. How much longer, how many more victims – before it is overturned??????????

  22. pete says:

    as a long term member of the child support sufferers its reassuring that I’m not the only one who is being victimized by such an intrusive and oppressive system that keeps kicking NCP parents at every turn.

    with my latest being made redundant from a government owned mining company and doing the right thing and informing IRD that I had been made redundant and would not have a regular income until I find another job only to be informed that regardless of weather I am working or not I have to pay at the assessed rate?

    no wonder mens health is a fragile balance talk about cause stress and added pressure to an already financially strained family I think if I didnt have such a great and understanding partner and loving kids I would probably standing on the side of a bridge contemplating weather it was all worth it.

    the system need to change before we lose good honest family men to unfair pressure from an unfair system

  23. Hans Laven says:

    Pete (#22): Contact the Child Support division of IRD. You can declare your new income and the CS will reduce accordingly.

  24. hornet says:

    Pete, NO mate the fkers who enforce such draconian rules need to be exposed and got rid of. Any politician supporting the current system needs to go. There is NO ACCOUNTABILITY in this country , at any level of our administration – justice, govt, local body, they hide behind process, we have an out of control enforcement system – who believe they are a law unto themselves – the dot com saga has if nothing else exposed how lawless and unaccountable our own system is.

    Sorry Hans I disagree with you on the instant changes application – they will not change a thing.

    I dont get another chance for a chance to seek an alteration until after march 2013 – if I want to try anything else – I am expected to go to court – find money I don’t have and waste more time fighting this corruption.

    Mean time they take both my family cars – my wifes included which they illegally seized – threaten to sell them at a no reserve auction – without my knowledge – vehicles worth four times the amount owed – no apologies, no option to allow me to air my concerns and present facts in court – My case manager did not even have the courtesy of discussing the consequences – I was in contact with her, they were aware of my circumstances – I dont earn the high incomes any more – Im a full time father ( they refuse to accept this ) they hold a court case alright without informing me – but its not to allow me the chance to put my concerns to any independent judge – no they sneak in there – behind closed doors – you dont even get told who the judge was who approved the warrants they sought to seize my families property – its a sham designed to fk you over. Nothing more.

    Never before have I been to totally disgusted in my country and the way its currently allowed to operate.

    There are currently cases heading to the supreme court on these matters – can you believe this – parents having to go that high to fight such injustice – who has that sort of money??? Even the legal system accepts the system is flawed – my lawyer agreed with 95% of my concerns – but as he said – you have to pay a lot of money to get any changes to these draconian – totalitarian decisions . Why should fathers have to go through that shit. Its totally unacceptable.

    So is our system only available to the wealthy to actually get a result – if at all.

    This is Legalized extortion – illegal seizure and oppression is the way they currently operate. Its a national disgrace!

    NZ used to be a place of a ” FAIR GO” did it not??

  25. hornet says:

    And Pete – never ever think about jumping off a bridge – my view is this – if any father does that – he has allowed the system to WIN. And they can not ever be allowed to WIN this. Current practices in this system are wrong at every level and it needs to be changed – for the sake of ALL PARENTS and CHILDREN. If it is not we are all living in a FACIST STATE – with no democracy. If DUNN was half the man he claims to be, if he was serious about making changes for the better, he would have sorted this out long ago – he has DUNN NOTHING. And lets not forget this is not just DUNN – he is a minority party Puppet given the shit job no one in the main govt wants – bit like Paula – nearly lost her seat -Bennett – – they give her the job which delivers the worst news to the nation – they are both expendable MPS and thats why they have the current portfolios. THIS problem goes to the top of the food chain – and thats where concerns need to be made.

  26. Tracey says:

    Lawless Bob & Mits
    So I take it you both had children with perfect women?So that is why you are now on the MENZ site?Think before you write.

  27. Mits says:

    Sorry Tracey, I seem to have completely missed your point here. But I have given it some thought before I write this.

    Ummm no I wouldn’t call the ex who I had children with perfect. But then I have never gone on to a site catering predominantly to NZ women and bagged her either. I agree with Hornet that there are some fantastic women out there.

    My comments regarding your post was that the message I got from your writing is that your ex isn’t contributing what you feel to be an adequate amount and to that end you have labeled him a loser and bludger. May I quote you:

    He has had the ability to earn far more than i have been able to.He has never made any of the effort i have made to support his family.He pays the minimum of Child Support.

    Is your point here that he should earn more money that you can receive more in child tax?

    If so, what level of child tax do you think would be acceptable for him to pay for the 18 years that you two have been apart. Is there a general figure above the minimum child tax rate you would be happy with or is it just a open he should pay me more?

    Im not saying this to inflame you but because I am truly interested

    thanks
    Mits

  28. hornet says:

    We should all keep on subject = this Child TAX is just that and its about to hit BOTH parents in the pocket.

    I read today, the govt claims there is $1.6 BILLION in outstanding CHILD TAX – and yet what they don’t tell us, is that only $500,000 of that is actual CHILD SUPPORT owed – which in itself is assessed at an excessive rate , while the remainder yes thats right – $1.1 BILLION IS Fking Penalties. INCOME to Govt.

    Let me state that again people – 1.1 BILLION is PENALTIES on Excessive demands.

    What will make you all spit in your soup is this…………

    This huge amount is used to LEVERAGE BORROWINGS from International bankers we loan money off – the tell international bankers this DEBT owed by the people can be FACTORED to borrow money against – to keep this sorry little ship sailing – so GOVT have INCREASED GOVT SPENDING by 10 BILLION this year alone – on what I don’t know – but then expect to use our CHILDREN as leverage to borrow money against – this is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.

    And the recent proposals by DUNNE and the GOVT – do nothing to help parents or children into the future – NO What they are proposing in the changes is to take from BOTH PARENTS INCOME – and make enforcement more rigorous and penalties higher if you refuse to SUBMIT to these DRACONIAN Demands – so you see, its NOT ABOUT looking after CHILDREN – its about USING Them for TAXATION INCOME – to leverage international borrowing to pay off huge debts.

    My Child has been abused enough by this system – she has been deprived of time with me – and I have been deprived of time with her – and for me to now find out that the system expects to FACTOR in obscene Penalties and outrageous demands in child support – so they can leverage loans using our kids – that is a step too far…….

    Wake up everyone – stop the bickering between sexes and understand what these thieves are doing to us all.

  29. hornet says:

    Article on this subject in elocal magazine – article by david Child-Dennis July 2012 Edition 136.

    I am not selling politics here – with this next comment – just stating a fact…….

    The only MP to raise the issue concerning how much of the 1.6 BILLION in unpaid Child support was PENALTIES of $1.1 BILLION was ROSS ROBERTSON of NZ FIRST – the others shut it down. So this was debated in Parliament. Roberston was the only one to suggest ALL PENALTIES be removed – did anyone agree – NO THEY WILL NOT, because they need that figure to satisfy loans – and that is why ladies and gentlemen you are being HOUNDED to DEATH to pay up…..this has nothing to do with your kids……….

    I am changing my name to …………
    FURIOUS FATHER……..

  30. hornet says:

    For the sake of accuracy – the article noted Robertson as NZ first – but I just checked and it looks like he is with Labor

  31. Scrap the CSA says:

    Hornet,
    Think he means Andrew Williams of NZ first. Robertson never spoke to the bill. you can check Hansard online.

    Regards

    Scrap

  32. Down Under says:

    Correct Scrap, Williams was the only one that made any attempt to debate the bill – from the rest of them, all you got was; we come in the name of the children, glory be to us. And given that Ross Robertson is a Labour MP that has to considered a pretty lame mistake.

  33. hornet says:

    Thanks Scrap – I should not have diverted attention away from the concern – that being if you have a GOVT sitting on 1.1 BILLION in PENALTIES and using that amount to leverage LOANS – I think ALL PARENTS need to wake up and see just what a sham this all is – No wonder there has been a DELIBERATE drive to keep fathers away from there kid and force them into excessive costs….dads over the years being the primary income earners, .and now what we are seeing as introduce new changes – they change the SHARED CARE clauses – giving more time – supposedly to dads – but look to TAKE MONEY from BOTH PARENTS – because they are realizing more mothers are working now and earning more money – if you have leveraged debt and set up loans using children as leverage – there is NO WAY you can dismiss it or remove it – this is a disgrace and it needs PARENTS of BOTH SEXES to get together on this.

    This is the issue. You see keeping dads and mums at loggerheads = keeps the real reason this is in place – hidden – Divide and Conquer – keep mums and dads fighting and they don’t have time to see why.

    When I look back my ex PROMISED to never stop me seeing my kid – it was only when the system intervened that the concerns took hold -and the conflict escalated – and now I have been through this from beginning to end – I can now see why it will never change -unless PARENTS of kids – both sexes unite to stop this. MY kids are not for ransom, they are not there to be used to raise mortgages – FK THAT.

  34. Down Under says:

    Apart from the obvious mistake which has been clarified the issue of parental financial responsibility is serious. Taking a blended family where a father has re-partnered while both may be working it would be more often the case that the female has retained a larger share of the assets from their previous relationship. This at present would be assumed to be protected by pre-nuptial agreements.

    At present the IRD is in a position of having to bankrupt a child support defaulter (child support exists after bankruptcy) before the official assignee can take action against a spouse of partner. There are exceptions like the operation of joint accounts.

    The question that will be raised here is – if you are not married what is deemed to be a parental relationship or a financial relationship that deems you to be a parent.

    This of course makes the father’s new partner the cash cow (no offence intended). This would work in the favour of the IRD for benefit recovery – now they can just send the step mother a demand for money.

    But other questions to consider are
    a. If another person such as a father’s mother is deemed to have a parental relationship does that make them financially liable?

    b. It has always been the case that any mother could sue the father in court for any amount of additional child support. This opens the door to a mother suing the father’s new partner and regardless of pre nuptial agreements obtaining financial judgements against them. This will make men active financial liabilities as one can never tell when a father’s circumstances could or will create a debt.

    As the writer of the article notes it is about putting money ahead of people but I would be blunter and call it an attack of social and financial integrity of society. Other areas to consider would be information that would be subject to mandatory demands relating to your parental status and the number of children you may be liable for.

    I have always said this is the most dangerous piece of legislation in New Zealand and I doubt I will be proved wrong – it is definitely the child support act – supports the children in parliament playing games with our lives.

  35. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Hornet,

    There is considerable merit in your argument regarding “leveraged loans”, thie applies to so called “student debt” also.

    The tinkering to the Child Tax Act is to create a PERCEPTION of fairness when in fact the model proposed is based on more flawed fundementaly flawed assumptions and fictioal guesstimates.

    Regards

    Scrap

  36. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Down under,

    Very valid observations.

    regard

    Scrap

  37. Down Under says:

    If you look at the German model of child support they operate a system where the whole family of the father is liable and if the father can’t pay then the parents are expected to pay, so it is not like this is something new dreamed up by our local sponges.
    Here is where it will bite back and this will make some people laugh…

    These women that have had take all attitudes to the assets and children and the father has left the country or terminated their life will become solely financially responsible for child support for their sons.

    While the absent father remains liable that would increase his debt and the child support debt we have now will spiral into a multi-billion dollar black-factoring hole. Laughs aside it’s time for women and men who have cooperated to see that their son could be comfortably living at his girlfriend’s house happily spending their retirement nest-egg.
    The bottom line is this – now that men in this country have been stripped of their assets the money has got to come from somewhere to continue this silly game and a certain groups of women are the next soft targets.

  38. rawkusworldwide says:

    An update on ‘Doubling up of Child Support Payments’.

    I have been advised by staff in both the International and Review teams that it is not the policy of CSA to share allegations or evidence of benefit fraud with WINZ. I sent a letter to Paula Bennett’s office which was forwarded to Peter Dunne’s office for comment. The following is the reply received. (I was unsure how to attach as a document in original form so have copied the text).
    ……………………………………………………………………

    Thank you for your email of 2 October 2012, in which you have asked if Inland Revenue child support refers alleged benefit fraud abuse to the Ministry of Social Development (MSD). Your email of 25 September 2012 to the Minister for Social Development, Hon Paula Bennett, has also been referred to me, as Minister of Revenue, for reply.

    A change has been made to the secrecy provisions of the Tax Administrative Act 1994 (the TAA) that enables Inland Revenue to provide other Government Agencies with customer information. From 31 May 2012, Inland Revenue officials can provide information, within relevant parameters, to MSD where possible benefit over-payment or benefit fraud is identified.

    As the administration of the various Revenue Acts is the responsibility of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, I referred a copy of your email to her office for comment.

    Officials have asked that I pass on their apologies to you for advising you to contact MSD yourself about the possibility of your husband’s ex-wife committing benefit fraud. I understand that information about private child support payments to beneficiaries is a matter of interest to MSD, and officials are able to pass on this information to them.

    While I appreciate that taxpayers may want to know if officials have in fact passed on information to the MSD, the secrecy provisions of the TAA prevent officials from advising a third person of any action that they have taken, even though they may have provided the information.

    Thank you for writing, I trust that my comments have clarified matters.

    Yours sincerely
    Hon Peter Dunne
    Minister of Revenue

  39. Cassie says:

    There is always going to be an indifference when it comes to child support, finances and ex partners. The law doesn’t always go in the way of the mother. My situation for e.g I find myself scratching my head all confused. My ex works over seas on a 12 week on / 2 week home basis always has, he would have kids 1 weekend he was home. The kids loved his new wife she came over from china, All was going well, I take good care of kids I don’t smoke or drink and I rarely go out, so all C.S went into the house. He and his wife had a bub in jan, and that was it, I received a call from C.S.A terminating our case as he is a non resident. A non resident who owns a house on the coast. That was paid for with sale of our home. I never received my agreed share. His wife and child live there and he flys in and out as usual. I’ve been assured by the government that this loophole is getting shut down. I’m overwhelmed with all the responsibility but I get thru. Sometimes scraping thru. It’s just saddens me that if your children’s needs and best interests are being met, surely it’s money we’ll spent. I don’t let my experience blind me to the fact that some dads do it tough but some of us mums do to.

  40. Ford says:

    #40..a female getting the short end of the stick,,how novel is that..i love it when women get shafted by the system

  41. Pete Jepsen says:

    interesting comment about women getting shafted which is a bit below the belt ford, because I have seen it personally where my partners lowlife ex pays nothing to support his son (I do support him as he is a good kid and pay child support for my own 2 boys also) when the IRD catch up with this creep he just moves houses and changes jobs and yet the IRD don’t harrass him like they do me.
    he also has 2 children to another partner who is on a benefit and she has 2 kids to another father also who pays child support. (yep the New Zealand dream)
    I always find it interesting how the IRD shrugs off chasing these people as it falls into the to hard basket but chasing the good old Kiwi worker who wants to do the right thing buy his family and has the social responsibilities like going to work and contributing to the community get crucified at every turn

    so will a working woman will get the same treatment as a working man “YES”

  42. Scott B says:

    Women getting shafted by the system is nothing new. Daughters, mothers, sister, grandmothers, aunties all suffer even if it is only the dad who is being tagetted.

  43. Down Under says:

    @ Scrap.
    Interesting discussions of recent.
    Going back to the lady who has a shared parenting arrangement with her ex husband/partner and living with her new husband/partner and their child. The family court has ruled that her daughter to her previous partner cannot be included in her new partner’s child support calculation because she has a 50/50 arrangement with her ex. What are the issues?
    *
    Polygamous financial arrangements. In respect of the above situation even though the mother and father are living apart they are co operating in the nature of a marriage. If a marriage/relationship is to be defined in financial terms rather than religious terms you have to ask what then a bigamous relationship is.
    *
    But if there is no such thing as a bigamous relationship and marriage is simply the union of any two people as is being proposed in parliament at the moment then the financial contract in marriage/relationship is being held up as a separate entity defined not by the emotional or biological relationship but by the existence of financial transactions or by the benefits of co operation.
    *
    So, if a Financial Relationship is deemed to be in the nature of a marriage this can run two ways. As above, the family court has deemed the shared parenting not part of the new relationship. The affect of this is to make more money accessible to a child support receiver regardless of whether it is the state or another parent.
    *
    Looking at the other situation where (Tim I think) who was on the DPB and had a 50/50 arrangement with his ex partner and was having a review. As you said he would have been paying the minimum amount of child support because he was on the DPB and I am assuming she would have been paying the full amount to the IRD. A review might do a number of things.
    *
    It could assess the father for an amount of child support above the minimum, perhaps up to half the amount of the value of her child support. This is where it gets interesting – if you reverse the genders and think how many women have retained significant amounts of assets especially in the form of a house where a lien could be taken on the property in the same way it is for legal aid.
    *
    This would create an interesting situation with the recovery of child support.

    *
    Looking at the father working paying half the child support and more child support each time he gets a wage rise either through inflation or career progress and then looking at the effect on the mother on the DPB. If there was a liability for child support which also increased each time the father’s wages increased that would not only inflation proof the recovery amount but increase it – in some cases quite dramatically.
    *
    It is quite ingenious really, the IRD simply watches its investment grow and when the parent no longer requires that capital to house a child the house can be sold or even the car for that matter.
    *
    As you can imagine there would be a much better recovery rate from women who have stayed here than from men who have left the jurisdiction and are not likely to return.
    *
    There are downsides of course. First is that it would encourage women to expel men from the lives of the children in order to keep the money. That’s certain to increase the number of men leaving the country, unless a mother’s libility was created for absent fathers.
    *
    The second is that even if it wasn’t a Shared Parenting situation it could move the benefit recovery away from the minimum amount payable from the DPB. So if say the father was paying for all the transport and a review determined that his amount of child support should reduce, the benefit recovery would not be lost but transferred to the mother’s liability. Even though the father’s child support would rightfully reduce the downside is the massive amount of record keeping and justification to reviews in wait for it The Business of Child Welfare
    *
    When you put this alongside superannuation reductions for child support liability this new Child Support Act is really going to cover some bases when it comes to reducing government expenditure and increasing benefit recovery.

  44. Ford says:

    342..im sure theres men out there that could do better by their kids as i do and have by mine and you yours .for the most part i consider myself an honest responsible person but the more women that get the rough end of the pineapple the more i like it..balance the scales a little more and while we talking about kids..i wonder if any scumbag will go to jail for the latest child death by assault

  45. JohnPotter says:

    Ford, I find your statements suggesting that women are collectively responsible for the actions of a few powerful man-haters among them just as offensive as the feminist concept that “all men are bastards”.

    If some women suffer from feminism like men do it doesn’t “balance the scales” at all; it actually damages our community and our children even more.

    Our goal as men isn’t to win the gender war, it’s to end it.

  46. Down Under says:

    There are other things to consider.

    The proposed bill will increase the numbers of people forced to use the legislation and the frequency of use of the legislation – more jobs for lawyers as review officers.
    Then, given what we already know about the impact on father’s daily lives we would see an increase in the suicide rate of mothers and impacts on their abilities to parent effectively.
    The redistribution of money must have long term effects. In this case an increase in old age poverty and homelessness. This won’t immediately be seen but it will happen and maybe it should be viewed more from the perspective of absent grandparents.
    One could go on.

    It is bit like the holy wars but instead of ‘we come in the name of God’ it’s ‘we come in the name of children’.

  47. hornet says:

    Summary.

    You have a family court system designed to keep parental CONFLICT alive.

    Protecting Court procedure is far more important than actually protecting children from harm.

    This system is NOT designed to help resolve things – because if parents were allowed to work out there problems this industry would collapse.

    You are deliberately deprived of your children – regardless of how good a “parent” you are.

    Open season at separation – before you get to see your children – You must first fight personal attacks on your credibility, reputation – this is an accepted practice – Actually its BEST PRACTICE where anything goes – facts and evidence to support allegations are not required.

    The Systems – Trophy fathers – those who are forever labelled with Protection and Violence Orders – for reacting to the overwhelming PROVOCATION, and who take things into their own hands to PROTECT there children – are sadly what the system wants.

    You can try at huge cost to get time with your children – and if you do – the acceptance of bad behaviour in all its forms by mothers who do not want you to see your child – will eventually make it less likely you even want to see your child at all. Recent system changes only INCREASE penalties and punishment.

    A Systemic Objective is to allow – by any means for permanent alienation of you from your child.

    Once and if you have survived that mine field – you then have the joys of child support to deal with.

    – a system which has NOTHING to do with INCOME – no its about what do you have left and what can we force you to sell to pay us more – so we can ramp up penalties – $500M owed in actual Child Support – versus $1.5 Billion in Penalties – to which the system can leverage borrowing.

    A system designed to impoverish “PARENTS” and keep them divided – I say PARENTS because thats what the changes are targeting, Mothers and Fathers – extended family and all there assets – whoever is earning the money – so the system can leverage huge debts against what is ” OWED” on your children.

    So in all respects this entire SYSTEM is DESIGNED to ensure PARENTS remain DIVIDED for as long as that child needs to be supported.

    The sooner all PARENTS understand, that this is what this BUSINESS OF SEPARATION is actually designed for – then you will see that NONE of this is ABOUT The CARE OF CHILDREN at all.

    Keep Parents DIVIDED on all issues and force them to pay more to support the system.

  48. To Tired... says:

    I must be missing something, the new rules say that my ex’s income will be considered in th ecalculation of my child support, not make her pay child support aswel, who would she pay it too, she has the kids!,
    I should just be paying less because they are taking into account the cost of raising kids, none of the new rules help all of us that have suffered so far, and I still maintain that child support should be scrapped altogether.
    I did get one step closer to a voluntary agreement with the ex though so thats good news, might be able to start over time again.
    There is one option in the current law that lets you get out scott free and thats the Custodial Parent cancelling the support, (cant remember what thats called) but imagine if everyone did what would IRD do? LOL. But no CP is going to say no to free money.
    (Yes I am aware that the CP cant stop CS payments if they are on the DPB).

  49. To Tired... says:

    BTW, FYI,

    I found the calculation for the new support changes, you can get a ruff idea as to your new assessment, I for one hope I have these calculations correct and that they pass this new bill.

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2011/0337/latest/whole.html#DLM4071835

    So it’s (income percentage minus parent’s care cost)x child expediture amount for a qualifying child.
    In better terms it’s a bunch of percentages based on income.

    For example, income of 48k-15k living allowance is 33k, minus the care cost of 24% (11,520) mulitply by 26% comes to $5,584.80 per annum, much less than current, this is based on the new 28%care calculation.
    If I can’t prove the 28% care then my new monthly amounts will be $715 which is still $70 less a month than now.

    Problem I can see for paying parents is the new system will allow the main carer to simply say that the paying parent doesnt have the children the required number of nights to qualify for the discount, and it will be up to us to prove it which could take six months of record keeping and even then who knows?

  50. Happy Larry says:

    So start keeping a record now of all nights the kids are in your care.
    Each month, send a copy to both your ex and IRD CS team, with the words ‘dear ex, just confirming that last month, the kids were at in my care on the nights of, 1st, 3rd, 4th etc being 8 nights total. Please respond within 7 days if your recollection differs …’

  51. Scott B says:

    We are all going to continue to be screwed over financially. They will still just make sums up and force us to pay. Our exes will now just make sure we see even less of the children so they can get more money. Lucky me, I can’t see mine any less than I already do!

  52. Scott B says:

    Oh and it will come directly from our pay, yay, even harder to deal with their screw ups!

  53. golfa says:

    #51 Happy Larry. When dealing with the IRD, you will find that they will ignore ANY figures you give them but will happily accept the figures your ex gives them. So if you say you had them for 8 nights a month, but she says you had them 4 nights a month, they will take hers as the truth. Been there, done that.

  54. Allan Harvey says:

    When it comes to shared care disputes. You keep your calender, she keeps hers (if she wishes).
    You detail on yours what you did with your child and usefully details of who else you had contact with that day.
    Golfa’s experience I don’t doubt but if you can put up the evidence (especialy if you need to take the dispute further)my experience is that matters flow pretty well. I have won shared care decisions section 13(2,) the so called “other substantial contact” cases, with less than 35% of nights being in a parents favour.
    I don’t think that Happy Larry’s suggestion in 51 is a good idea. It just raises too many warning flags to both IRD and his ex and the label “tries too hard nutter” will be applied and the strategy is likely to backfire. Like all legal matters it is not ever about convincing your ex, or IRD (who may become first or second respondent)that you are right, it is about marshalling evidence that can be presented one day if required. That is a subtle and systematic approach done behind the scenes and without needing a monthly argument and stress.
    I recomend a calender with plenty or room for annotations. Keep it in your bedroom or even you wardrobe if the child in question is closely aligned to mum and may report on its growing content on information.
    Remember that you need to raise the shared care question early and often the lengthy time that making a final decision takes can then work to your favour and as long as you asked the question at an approipriate time you can be back dated till then.
    In my experience IRD are much better with shared care decisions than they are with Admin Review decisions where the outcome is more variable even with exceedingly similar situations.

  55. To Tired... says:

    I’m left thinking now with the new report how many new-parnters will leave there paying parents? money problems are a high contributing factor to relationship meltdowns.

    My ex has a new partner, they are getting married, can’t wait till he realises how horrible married life is,(with her) hopefully before they have kids so she cant screw him for support aswell.
    he is a strange guy though I thought he would’ve run a mile at the concept of raising three kids that aren’t his but since he hasn’t had to pay for them or be employed so far I guess he’s still ignorant to how much of his money she will spend.

  56. Down Under says:

    I wonder how many paying parents incurred IRD penalties because of the teachers’ Novapay mess?

    Will Novapay being paying for that?

  57. Ford says:

    im wondering how long it will take for the wife of the xfactor winner to take off with his 5 million prize..haha

  58. Ford says:

    #56..the govt also need to raise money for moari settlements..$225 million to taranaki iwi

  59. bigtrev says:

    Need help.Just got 10 letters from IRD. My ex claimed the shared custody stopped a year ago. she decided i could only see my child weekends and holidays. in all that time she was claiming benefits on the side sitting at home while her new partner has his own business.Technically she was not allowed to claim, i pay half of everything my daughter needs,when she is with me she gets treated like a princess.Now because her mother decided she can only see me weekends she never informed the IRD. i pay each month. deducted from my wage.she recently cancelled her benefits cause she realized she was not allowed to .We both send forms away to cancel the ird payments and have a private agreement. But now IRD wants me to back pay for a year ($6000) in a months time. I need help is there any one that could help me please. I will do anything to see my daughter more but my ex does not allow me ….help needed badly

  60. Allan Harvey says:

    big Trev
    You need to get some assistance in neotiating something like this with IRD.
    Separating the past from future will be needed.
    Your ex can change private arrangements at any time but you need to argue it is irregular to backdate matters.

  61. Too Tired says:

    At the very least you need to start a payment scheme with them while you try to sort out the reason for this $6000 they want off you otherwise they will just start charging penalties and the $6000 will be $60k in no time.

    The IRD seems to work on a pay now! get it right later policy.

  62. Desperate Dan says:

    I earn less than half of my ex wife’s salary. We have shared custody/ day to day care, although their primary residence is with her. I still pay 23% of my salary in CS. Having read all the comments above I am starting to resent the system because in my particular case I am being screwed. I love both my kids dearly and would never deny the Cs, but it is crippling and I can’t see how a mum of 2 teen needs more than $ 10 000, (yes her net income is just short of $ 10 000) per month.

    I empathise with the mums out there who genuinely need the CS but in this particular instance I feel its just a slap in the face for divorced dads.

  63. Scott B says:

    Too Tired… “The IRD seems to work on a pay now! get it right later policy.” This is why I am frightened of them taking the money straight from my bank acc and/or pay packet!

  64. Too Tired says:

    Unfortunatley it will be policy soon. Employers will deduct form pay. And you’ll never get a straight answer form IRD. Lately I’ve had four different answers to the same question and even a full spread sheet to explain my payments but it resolves nothing.
    Glad I have a volentary agreement now.

  65. Too Tired says:

    63. Desperate Dan,

    I feel for you mate but IRD is clear on this, at the moment it doesn’t matter how much she earns, but with the changes proposed it soon will so hang in there and record all the times you have the children for the new rules of care. You might be paying a lot less very soon, trick is if you can to do no overtime this comming year to show your basic pay rate when the changes hit.

    Hope this helps.

  66. cortstang says:

    Hey People
    I can’t believe I found this site, it should be the first site that appears under the cs search, it’s like de ja vue, so many of the problems on here, I have experienced myself, I must say tho, I really feel for the blokes that are not getting access to their kids, I spent thousands on lawyers fees just to get access to my boy and she continuosly failed to turn up costing me more money, then when I finally got access she still tried to stop me seeing my son, so after spending more money on lawyers, I approached the family court co-ordinator as a last resort, and she had it sorted with-in a week, they enforced the access agreement and threatened her with all sorts of legal action, no hearing needed, so I highly advise this route if shes breaking an access agreement.
    The big issue, im having at the moment is I’ve come to a private agreement with my ex (thank god) and have started paying her direct, she filled out both forms to stop collecting CS, and to void any arrears, CS then rang me and informed me that I still had 3.5k to pay, even though they had refunded me 3.5k the year before for over paying, I exploded at the poor guy on the phone and told him to get his facts right and ring me back, about 10 minutes later a woman rings me and explains that they have not processed the second form yet that relates to the arrears, and it may turn out that I owe nothing, she said they would notify me by mail by March 2013.
    Feb 2013 I get a letter from CS to advise I have no further contributions to make to CS, I am overjoyed and bump up payments to my ex as agreed, because there is now no arrears, and then bang a couple of days later I get another letter that states I owe them 3.5k and they are taking it out of my wages.
    Then there’s the ongoing saga of them taking the money directly out of your wages, then realise at the end of the financial year that they have not taken enough, so they put you in arrears and then you end up paying CS and arrears, it is my opinion that if they take it out of my wages, how can it possibly go into arrears, and why am I being charged interest on those arrears when it is them that is failing to take the right amount from my wages in the first place.
    I have written to CS and asked for all information on my file as per the privacy act, so I can have an accountant look over the assessments and see where we end up minus all the arrears they have stung me with, I have then threatened them with the Ombudsman and legal action, they have now assigned me a case manager who will review my case and be in contact within the next few days, I wait with baited breath.
    Good work people, I would like to see this forum go public to the point were it cant be ignored by CS, I have been at the mercy of CS for 13 years and counting, and I really feel for some of you guys, at times I have paid way more in CS than my ex ever got on the benefit, and then there’s other times when I’ve had to pay more CS per week than I actually earned..(hard times), but CS don’t care. I can’t count the amount of times I’ve thought I may as well stop going to work due to the predicament that CS has put me in, but for some reason I just kept going.
    I believe in paying my dues and it appears most people here are too, I have always provided for my boy, but when I pay more in child support to my ex than we spend on our two girls combined, where is the logic in that.
    One more question, the living allowance before assessment is somewhere around 18k, I think the bloke they modeled this calculation on, must be living in his parents basements, and live on a diet of two minute noodles, and never go out, because that $330 odd a week doesn’t last that long.

    Keep up the good work, wish I had of discovered this a long time ago, when I really needed to vent….lol

  67. Too Tired says:

    13 more years for me to go, I’m lucky that this year I have an arrangement but still haven’t managed to get out form IRD all together, it would make sense butthe ex thinks I’ll just stop payments one day. As if I’d risk not being able to see my kids.
    But I will get there. Hopefully before 2014 kicks my ass with new policy.

  68. Nickstar says:

    Hi there, I am a mum of a beautiful 11yr old girl that I have 50/50 shared care of and have done for 3yrs. Recently my ex moved in with his new partner. Mt daughter is expected to share a bed, and a room with my exs partners 2 girls who are 11 and 5. My daughter is an only child and is finding it hard to adjust to her dads expectations of her. Also she is made to wait until the other 2 girls have eaten their meals before she is allowed to eat.She asked her dad for help with some maths homework, the new partner then said she is dyslexic and wants to put her infront of doctors etc. My daughter is definatley NOT dyslexic. The new partner has also told my daughter I am too poor to look after her, I left her father because of my daughter!!! I find this appauling behaviour from my ex and his partner, so I voiced my concerns to him, like I have in the past, but this time there was a huge row to the point where my daughter refused to go with him due to the outburst of rage! She now has come to me( 3wks later ) and wants to live with me. She is to afraid to tell her dad and would like me to, which is fine, but I am concerned for the repercussions this will have on my daughter when it is her time with him. I have sort legal advice and I am within my rights to keep her in my care, as we do not have a parental order, just an aggreement via counselling. I would like some opinions on this situation, I want to do what is best for my girl, but would like to avoid the court system if possible, but the way my ex and his new partner are im guessing it is enevidable! Would like to know, what kind of game this women might be trying to play!

  69. shafted says:

    Hi. Its awful when the kids are stuck in the middle. I personally believe you should try to talk calmly to the father, or seek counselling via family court (at least there will be a third party there to broker a deal). In the event that does not happen, your only real alternative is to seek a a parenting order via the family court. This will take a long time as there is such a back log. I assume the new partner is trying to prove how much better she is as a carer than you. I would point out to the new partner (if you are able) that the parenting decisions are yours and your ex’s-not hers. As a start point i would write to them-letter plus identical email (proof) about your concerns and with your suggestions. Got the t-shirt Nickstar. good luck

  70. Allan Harvey says:

    You are onto it shafted.
    Nickstar you need to speak with your ex. He needs to decide about things in his new household and while you can speak to him you need to but out about what his new partner says and does. Raise it with your ex face to face if you can then perhaps reinforce that with a followup e-mail of key agreements. If you get annoyed about what his new partner does or doesn’t do, or how your kids respond to her all you will do is cause yourself and your kids more stress.
    What happens in your house is under your control. What happens in your ex’s house isn’t.
    You also need to support your daughter whenever she makes comments about dad’s household that she needs to speak to him about that. Your job is to listen and support with empathy but actions are for dad when it comes to his house.

  71. Nickstar says:

    @Allan harvey, my ex is not a rational man. He is very narsasitic and difficult to compromise with at the best of times. Over the past 3 yrs i have travelled my daughter to her school which is 40km from my home at a $200 a week fuel bill at my own expense…BECAUSE my ex would not compromise her with schooling, so like everything else, I have given in and done what he has wanted. In the past 6 months his relationship with our daughter has deterioated, and the civil relationship between us also. This is neither fault of my own or our daughter. He is very controlling and unsympathetic when it comes to situations that dont effect him or his bank account, hence why I chose to end the relationship. From the beginning of our relationship ending, we BOTH agreed to pay 50/50 of our daughters costs e.g schooling, sports, uniforms etc and each one of us would be responsible for her day to day care while in our own care. I have upheld my end completley. My problem is Allan Harvey is that I cannot speak to him with out him having the ” my way or the highway” attitude and quite frankly, I am tired of him putting himself before our daughter, saying that she is 11 and has no idea what she wants and forcing me to give in to his demands STILL due to the simple fact, I DID NOT want to be one of those mothers that shafted the dad with CS and denied him access!!!…..so by me being the bigger person and putting things aside for my daughter to maintain a decent relationship with both parents…Where is has it got me and my daughter is unhappy…is that best for the child??? I think not. Something is in need of change. I would like opinions taking into account..talking with her dad RATIONALLY LIKE ADULTS is not an option!!!

  72. Nickstar says:

    Also Allan Harvey, I dont think i am “butting in” on what my exs new partner has to say at all!!! When my daughter comes home and says she doesnt want to live with her dad anymore, of course I am going to ask her why, and support her, there is no way she can tell her father how she feels…the response will be “shut up and get over it, your the child im the adult, do as you are told” so the next best place is to come to me…her mother. To be honest I couldnt give a rats ass what the new partner has to say, Im her parent and will make choices for my daughter which I think are best for her. My bad for having children with such and un reasonable man I guess.

  73. shafted says:

    Nickstar-i don’t think allan was having a go at you. I guess speaking from expereince the best thing is to at least go through the motions of trying to resolve matters amicably. If that does not work (and i acknowledge you comments reagading this) you wouuld ramp it up to counselling and if that fails, family court parenting order. If the schooling is a problem for you, perhaps you could point out the difficulty in you getting her to school and present an articulate fact based argument as to why an alternative school (similar ero reports etc) is a reasonable compromise. or seek his agreemtn/an order that he transport her to and from school.
    I understand your anger, because i too have had similar difficulties, but allan is right-getting pissed off just upsets you and does not deal with the practicalities of the situation.f you believe that compromise /agreement cannot ne reached you are left with the family court scenario. Yes you could withhold the child from her father (i.e. not give him the 50/50 care due to a lack of a parenting order, but unless the child is severely emotionally stressed i believe the courts would frown on such an action. Not telling you how it should be, rather, how it is. Best of luck

  74. Allan Harvey says:

    You got it Nickstar.
    You (and he chose) to have a child together. Your child had no say in the matter but you and dad did. Not only did you conceive the child you then decided to carry the child and welcome her into your home. Presumably you both had some input into the decision making.
    Now you have decided he is an irrational, very narsasistic man who you can’t talk to. I suspect that is a fairly recent understanding and I wonder what has changed. Previously you were prepared to have children with him and set up happy families.
    In my experience post-separation people are extremely like they were pre-separation. Those elements of “irrationality” and “narcisism” haven’t just happened.
    Sounds to me that you definitely do want to control him and it seems his new partner as well. That is difficult (probably impossible) but if you want to stress yourself and your child then carry on as you are doing. Get some legal help and cost everyone a fortunes and spend you daughters inheritance with lawyers if you wish but it still isn’t going to give you control of him or his new partner. In my experience it just makes everyone miserable and allows lawyers to update their BMW’s on an annual basis.
    Shafted had some great advice for you. I hope for your daughters sake you take it.

    Whenever you think negative stuff about your ex, or write like you have done here, it is yet another difficulty your 11 year old daughter needs to overcome. You and your ex are her parents. You need to shelter her from conflict and grow up and behave like adults so that she can enjoy the childhood she deserves. Separation can be good for children if parents allow it to be. New adults in children’s lives can be positive. If one , or both, parents want to make it difficult for themselves and their children then all is misery and lawyers get rich. Your choice. Just like choices to continue a pregnancy and to keep a child rather than adopt them out.

  75. kiranjiharr says:

    PS Nickstar.. what you have described are the exact responses most guys get from their ex’s. “my way or highway “etc.. not to mention preventing kids from seeing their fathers.. I do not know if you are coming onto this site as you want to “protect” your child from the mean father and need some sort of approval to do it..

  76. Allan Harvey says:

    To be honest I couldnt give a rats ass what the new partner has to say, Im her parent and will make choices for my daughter which I think are best for her.

    Classic

  77. Nickstar says:

    As i can see, most of you on her are very “anti female”… all i was asking was for an opinion on whether I take the matter through court since I am unable to communicate with my ex, as my daughter has been asking to live with me. I want her to be in the place she feels most comfortable and if that is with me then I will get condemnd by “fathers” on here because my ex refuses to have a constructive conversation???
    Im not sure what has happened for you to come to this site Allan Harvey, but to me you sound very bitter and closed minded to things and perhaps thats an obstacle you need to conquer who knows. I thought I would get some positive feedback from this site, as I have participated before in conversations about CS which my new partner has to deal with.
    Alot of you say “what is best for the children” but it seems to me you think all females that have separated from the father are out for revenge or are some kind of control freak. Allan Harvey you have no idea what went on in my 10yr relationship with my ex, and I think its very nieve to ASSUME you knew what my ex was like during our entire relationship to even comment on that. Not all separations are as simple as you may think. Shafted thank you for your feedback, its very helpful to have a POV opinion! I have had disscussions with her school and she is currentley in counselling, due to insomnia and anxiousness when her father returns to pick her up after her week here. I am not at all trying to control my ex or his life etc, I just worry for my daughter that she is put in situations with her father, that she shouldnt have to deal with at her age. I think Allan Harvey has got the wrong end of the stick. I also do not need approval to protect my child if thats what I think she needs, i merely wanted opinions from people that had perhaps been through this kind of thing before. Maybe this was the wrong place to come….who knows

  78. kiranjiharr says:

    Hi Nickstar .. as i said before you are voicing exactly what fathers have to go through when they are forcibly separated from kids.. I can detect a lot of emotional response from you but nothing based on facts.. we have all seen this “I just worry for my daughter that she is put in situations with her father, that she shouldnt have to deal with at her age” which is generally what is used a lot by Ex’s (under coaching by the Refuge and FC lawyers) to remove fathers contact from their children… so do forgive us if these hit a nerve.. we are frustrated with the injustice of it all… maybe it was the wrong place to come??,, who knows.. you came and got exposed to reality.. you could be rite.. maybe it was a wrong place for you as you cannot deal with the injustice that guys have to go through.. you being a female will get your way easily in FC but guys don’t have it so easy.. if you showed efforts to promote equality then people here will take you seriously.. hope that explains it all..

  79. Nickstar says:

    Equality??? I have had 50/50 shared care of our daughter for the last 3yrs. How more equal can you get?? If anything im the one on the down side of this with having to drive my daughter to and from school each day she is in my care an hour the an hour back…at my own cost of $200 a week. Not once have I asked my ex for a cent towards this, I have to do this due to him not willing to compromise with her schooling…i couldnt be bothered arguing with a brick wall 3yrs ago about it so gave in. I dont see how you all get from this that im trying to deny him access…not once have I said this, all I want is for my daughter to have a stable, happy home environment and at the moment she says thats with me. Trust me I have facts on things reguarding her father…that come from him actually, in writing proud to admit to them….hence the narcasisum! So I am offended that you would think I am just another female ex trying to distant the father!!
    Not the case at all. You are all missing the point except shafted.

  80. kiranjiharr says:

    my observation is you definitely are using the language .. and concetrating on “its all about Me”.. what about the rest of the guys that get shafted everyday out there.. what do you do for them??

  81. Nickstar says:

    Well if you look back one past posts from me reguarding my new partner and his exs and them shafting them with CS then you will see, I have helped him fight for over a year against the CS and FC system!!! I emailed media, journalists, human rights etc about the appauling system the government has in place to deal with separated parents and their children!!! I have spent un told hours up through the night researching, reading court cases, reading the bill of rights to try and help my partner get a reasonable deal so I DO NOT think you have any right to say…what have I done for all you others!!! I think you perhaps need to sort facts before accusing me of being in it for myself!!! I am on both sides of the track here, so dont condemn me to the same catergory as all the other females out there that you clearly have an issue with.

  82. Down Under says:

    Don’t buy into the personal stuff Nikstar – you have made a good contribution to debates on this site for a while now. It is not often we have some decent female input. At the end of the day it only we men and women work together that we will get out of this mess.

  83. Too Tired says:

    Well I would try to find out if the daughter actually needed protection or needed a kick in the pants, females even at 11 years old can be manipulative. But if my daughter also 11 came to me and asked to live with me because of the step/parent I would takl to my ex and have a trial period where the daughter could now choose if she wanted to go visit the othwer parent. Sometimes my kids have thought the grass would be greener because I’m a push over during our weekends. But I’ve told them that they will live with thier mum until thier mum wants me to have them.
    It’s a case of weighing up the correct responce I think. From what i read the having to eat after the step kids seems terrible. More info like this may have swayed the others on this site to your view. Facts are better then hypothesis etc:
    Is it better for your daughter to stop seeing her dad?
    Will that mean stopping her seeing other members of her family on that side eg: grandparents.
    Will you let her go back to her dad as soon as she changes her mind? Are you looking for her dad to start paying proper CS?
    What does your new partner think?

  84. Nickstar says:

    My approcach to this was going to be a trail period and where my daughter can have all the contact she likes with her father, whether it be once a week, once a fortnight, that was totally up to him. as much or as little as he likes, but her permanent home would be with me. Her granparents on his side see her maybe once a year if your lucky as my ex and his parents dont get on very well. They have never taken an interest in my daughter anyway so she hardly knows them.
    My new partner is all for it, he loves my daughter like is own and we also have a baby son together whom my daughter adores.
    As for child support, this is what is driving my ex to be difficult about this. His new partner and himself dont want to pay…fair enough through the IRD so I put it to them, since they couldnt stand the thought giving me any money, put whatever he likes into a bank account for my daughter to purchase her first car, uni courses, etc. See, this subject has been disscussed between my ex and I before the new partner came along, civilly, rationally and he was happy to let her live with me since thats what she wanted…BUT unfortunatley things changed before we could put things in motion because he gained a new partner and she has obviously changed his mind.
    My daughter having to eat after the step kids is just the beginning, there is so much more my daughter gets left out on by my ex and his new partner I could be here for weeks typing. All I wish for is my daughter to be comfortable, stable and happy and as far as I can see she seems to think that will be with me right now.

  85. Nickstar says:

    Can I add….his new partner has 2 children, to 2 different fathers and collects child support or them through IRD…the fathers have little contact that I am aware of.

  86. Allan Harvey says:

    Nickstar, clearly there are issues you have with his new partner. If you can’t get over that then unfortunately that will affect your daughter. Great you have revised your view on dad and acknowledge that until recently you were communicating satisfactorily. If you do your bnit this situation is likely to re-establish itself.
    Kids only ever get one biological mum and one biological dad. Don’t set up competitions for their affections and time.If she wants to live with you and negotiates that with you and dad then great. If vice versa then also great. Keep your daughter out of any anomosity and conflict!

  87. MurrayBacon says:

    Semen can make women happy research
    2:01 PM Friday Aug 24, 2012

    Semen contains “mood-altering chemicals” that are good for a women’s physical and mental health, scientists have found.
    Researchers Gordon Gallop and Rebecca Burch from State University of New York and psychologist Steven Platek from the university of Liverpool predicted women who have more unprotected sex would be less depressed than those using protection. This was based on the fact that semen contains “mind-altering” drugs like mood-elevating estrone and oxytocin, affection promoting cortisol, sleep inducing melatonin and antidepressant prolactin and serotonin.
    The researchers conducted an anonymous survey of 293 female university students, Medical Daily reported. They quizzed them on their sex lives and asked them to complete the Beck Depression Inventory, a commonly used clinical measure of depressive symptoms.
    Researchers indirectly measured seminal plasma circulating in the woman’s body by how recently participants had unprotected sex.
    Results, published in the Archives of Sexual Behaviour, found even after allowing for frequency of intercourse, those who had sex and “never” used condoms showed less depressive symptoms than women who “usually” or “always” used protection.

    Those having unprotected sex were also happier than women who abstained from sex.
    Promiscuous women who used condoms were just as depressed as those who didn’t have sex at all, leading researchers to suggest that semen, not sex, makes women happier.
    – HERALD ONLINE
    _____________________________________________________________
    Self expression is men being required to self express, so their ex-wives don’t have to go without, for a year or two after separation – spousal maintenance.

    There is a rumour that spinsters for marriage equality demanded that semen be put into the milk, so that they wouldn’t be left behind. This is why the milk companies are having to move to use of sunlight blocking plastic bottles and why milk for coffee now has to be frothed.

    It seems to cut both ways.
    Women have been moaning for years that men enjoy it more, but really …..

  88. Nickstar says:

    Once again Allan Harvey you are missing the point! It is not ME causing the issues, It is her DAD!! I have no issues with the partner…I havent even met her! I get told things by my daughter and her father ABOUT the new partner. I ended the relationship 3yrs ago I have been in my current relationship for 2yrs and we share a baby boy together…. I have no issues with the new partner unless she treats my daughter badly…WHICH SHE IS if you read my first post properly!!!
    If you think it is ok for my daughter to be fed AFTER the other 2 children in the house….then clearly there is something wrong with you. Get over you own issues you obviously have with women and stop putting every woman in the same catergory!!!!

  89. Kumar says:

    Am aware of a family friend…daugther manipulated ..& chose to stay with DAD for few years… Then father laid some house rules….she ran away from him and went back to MUM for few years. When she laid house rules…(by this time she was an adult)…she ran away from both of them and started flatting with his boyfriend.

  90. kiranjiharr says:

    @ 82 again a lot of emotion .. what if we asked you to demonstrate you really did this??.. atm you seem to be looking for approval .. have you seen your daughter being treated that way? or did she get punished one day for misbehaviour (eat after tha family..) and you are blowing it out of proportion.. I have seen school teachers getting the brunt of reactyions like this when the real issue was the kids…

  91. Allan Harvey says:

    Nickstar,
    Take a step back.
    You come trolling here for sympathy and justification.
    You are highly agitated by dad’s new partner, yet you can do little about it. Probably good advice is to be less reactive and speak to dad. You reject that advice as he is narcisistic etc which has just surfaced about the same time as his new relationship.
    It’s clearly not you, eveyone else has the problem.
    I’m interested in what you percieve my women issues might be.
    Whatever thay might be I’m not sharing them here. I respect the women and children in my own life too much to be bagging my ex’s or my kids or my ex’s new partners. I think that is healthier than your response.
    Re-read your posts and then read mine again and then try to take yourself out ofd the picture and look again at the suggestions I have offered. If you want to change your situation and your daughters try a different approach and see iof it might produce a better outcomne for your daughter more quickly.
    Less reactive,
    Talk to your ex,
    Butt out of his household and your daughter’s time with him.

  92. Nickstar says:

    I have take the approach to meet with my ex in relationship services counselling to try to come to some kind of aggreement. Also a surprise visit on my doorstep tonight from CYFS, reguarding an anonomous call with concerns for my daughter due to the caller being concerned for the children in my exs new partners care. Go figure….not in my head allan harvey, not me with an issue against my exs new partner but a real concern from the public….mothers instinct maybe I knew something wasnt right with her. Thanks for everyones advice and critisisums.

  93. Too Tired says:

    Seems clear now, I would’ve taken her out of that situation and gone through IRD to make him pay as soon as I knew the new partner had two kids to two dads, those women are horrible, I had a bad experience with one. I hate the IRD but some people ruin the whole system for others. It is there for bad situations. But it mostly ruins good people.

    I hope you find a solution. And I hope your ex wants to keep his daughter in his life and makes her a priority, women esp new women should come second to kids and if they cant handle that then go date a man without kids.

  94. michaelqtodd says:

    Have just managed to escape New Zealand after being held illegally by the IRD for about a month. The IRD would not examine me in the court so gave the judge no choice but to allow me to leave. IRD also refused to enter into a plan for repayments ( I offered an unconditional one).
    Judge told them that they were oppressive, unreasonable and had made me a victim and caused me trauma. Plus he said that they had totally mishandle my case.
    I will never be going back to New Zealand. Sorry kids but that is the way it is.

  95. kiranjiharr says:

    congratulations Michael..

  96. Man X Norton says:

    michaelqtodd (#95): Well done for deciding to escape from this oppressive, male-hating and male-enslaving country. It’s rapidly deteriorating with a government that keeps enacting laws that breach our Bill of Rights and just laughs it off, and that allows its agents of the state to break the law through illegal surveillance, illegal gun-point terrorism of small communities, illegal search and detention, but those agents of the state are never punished or held accountable. Instead, this government simply passes retrospective laws to make legal what was illegal, only for its own heavies of course. This all bodes very poorly for the group that is already treated as 2nd-class citizens under the law. Speaking up or trying to be politically active against the feminist machine will soon get a whole lot more repressed and dangerous. Men have had nothing but more and more injustice, exploitation and abuse from both Labour and National governments in NZ and there is no sign of that ending.

    Many of us will be following you in due course michaelqtodd, until they close the border and prevent our escape. So good on you for getting out while you can. I would guess that your departure will be New Zealand’s loss and some other country’s gain. Good luck for a better life!

  97. Skeptic says:

    Congratualtions Michael on joining the strike.

  98. Down Under says:

    It is real enough for someone to write a book about it.

    http://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2013/04/18/men-on-strike-now-ready-for-pre-order/

  99. Man X Norton says:

    Has anyone read Dr Smith’s book and can inform us whether it’s worth getting?

  100. Too Tired says:

    #95, Is there court transcripts of what was said so maybe some other men can use this against IRD in future cases?

  101. Skeptic says:

    Man X @ #100,
    All the reviews over at Amazon are very positive. You can check them out.
    A review I saw said it’s as important a read as Dr Warren Farrel’s now iconic book “The myth of male power”.

  102. Rob says:

    I’m going through so much shit with NZ child care right now. I can’t believe NZ child care can legally get away with this behavior. If an individual was caught acting like they do, they’d be put in jail for extortion\blackmail. It seems there system follows no common sense and when they overcharge you (99% cases) they expect you to also foot the bill. They do not take responsibility for their actions,the people who work these jobs do not care about the ethical or moral obligations, they are on their government job getting paid there wage. They don’t give a f**k. In fact they seem to enjoy sh*ting on fathers especially. After 10 years of not seeing my daughter (I’m in Australia, daughter is in NZ) I would not know if she alive other than childcare chasing me. I’ve asked child care if they can organise a trip for my daughter to see me. They say thats not there area, typical, take everyones money but give back nothing in return. IRD don’t care about fathers seeing there kids, its all about money money money.

  103. hornet says:

    Rob 103 – mate I hear ya, the challenge is what can we all do about this – it MUST change – im still looking at how to take the govt to task for failing to provide the services they offer – they fail to help parents ( fathers ) see there own kids, they are discriminatory, they do not help prevent harm to children – in fact as with child support – its best practise to use kids to spy on parents and invade there privacy – this really pisses me off. They refuse to make it an offence to make false accusations which tarnish and destroy a mans credibility, reputation and integrity and they refuse point blank to make it an offence to behave badly – as so many bitter and twisted ex mothers do, using kids to leverage property and withholding kids to punish dads – this goes on, the system knows it and the lawyers whose livelihoods rely on it – will never make the changes necessary – no the only way to get this system to change is to take a case against them for damages – massive fking damages – only then will the real concerns be aired – because there will be a cost – and that seems to get there attention……

    My wife and I of ten years currently live every day waiting for the dogs to come into our home and upset out children – with warrants obtained in secret and to which you cant challenge – to take more of our family property to help pay off bogus debt – I am currently assessed on maximums in child support – because apparently I could earn more than I currently do = get this , pick a number and wish you earned it – yes thats right – this is the latest tactic = make up a number…….and when you cant or wont pay it they will come take what ever you have left and sell it at a no reserve auction……

    They have already broken into our family home last year and taken the two family vehicles – having to return one which they illegally seized – NZ – not like you think it is, these fkers are out of control.

    And for all those wanting to know why the marriage laws were recently changed to include – gays etc – its so it ties in with the changes to the child support act – so they can go after EVERYONE who is responsible for that child – any partner, defacto parent, mother, father, care giver , gay or straight, and even bring in the grand parents – and it you look at my case, whats to stop them making up a number – over and above what you actually earn – and when you cant pay = they can do what is happening to me, expand the net and take more property from good parents – this is so insane its unbelievable – but I guess desperate govts with no money will do what ever it takes – and brach every civil and human right along the way ……….this is real and its happening right here in what was once a great and prosperous country……

  104. Scott B says:

    103 that is what is so frightening about the changes. They will take whatever money they like from our accounts and it will be hell to get it back. Maybe we should all just quit our jobs and close our accounts. What will they do then? Force us to work and have a bank account?

  105. Scott B says:

    104 very truthful. I was assessed at tens of thousands of dollars more than I have ever earned in my life. Finally got it back to where it should be, and then BANG! Another new assessment. Why? Because my circumstances had changed (nothing had). So back to the same old process again.

  106. Scott B says:

    It’s all about your potential to pay, er I mean earn as the IRD say.

  107. Downunder says:

    @ Scott B – potential to pay is why you are here and I understand that.

    Many years back I conducted some informal research into the issue. I interviewed and surveyed people all over Auckland. I went up a factory door in East Tamaki and asked the foreman if any of his staff(all male) had issues they wanted to talk about. He immediately called a stop work and brought the whole factory staff outside for a half hour discussion. This is what they talked about at morning tea most days. There are many, many men who do not have the potential or ability to complain or even access a website like this. The money simply disappears from their wages and they are quite powerless to change that. You’re not alone, just not connected to great mass of male New Zealanders subjected to this form of revenue gathering.

  108. Scott B says:

    108 Plenty of other reasons why I am here too.

  109. what a sad faceless society says:

    I got a call today from an old friend who now believes his life is screwed thanks to the NZ government

    Many years ago he had a child. The relationship went different directions but he always tried to maintain contact with his child despite him living in another country. When he could he would visit, take her OS on trips with him, buy items of need such as clothing etc

    He spent many a year getting the cold shoulder from the ex partner, things like after arriving from OS on a planned trip to pick up his child and take them OS, suddenly to be told “Their passport cannot be found’ and other such BS tactics. Yes, he got a court order and the police searched the house and found the passport sitting on the fireplace mantel in full view

    A number of year later he gets an out of the blue phone call – can the child come and live with you please! Yep – no worries was his immediate reply, he paid for their airfare OS to where he lives and two days later they were living with him. He still insisted that every so often the child visits the Mum as she’s still family

    On the day the child turned up, she had once tiny handbag and that was it – that was all their possessions, so he immediately took them shopping and spent $700 on what he considered vital clothing

    The child lived with him for years and he put them through schooling and is helping get them through university now

    Unbeknown to him, he had about $26K of debt. He was never informed of this debt

    A while ago he get a very hostile phone call from the NZ government, basically tearing stripes off him as a person whose run away from his responsibilities as a father bla bla bla

    He is a very calm person, dialogues with the government person concerned and then explains the situation and produces records that clearly show how he has constantly stayed in touched, did things possible to be engaging with the child, took them on OS holidays etc, covered many of their expenses in terms of needs and had them living with him all through high school and has paid for everything, the mother has contributed nothing the whole time the child has lived with him

    Now get this – despite all the evidence he was able to produce (and even the government official took his side and tried to fend off the rest of the government sharks because she could see his investment in his child), they, during a phone meeting refused to consider ANY of his items at all and refuse to cancel the original debt (which he doesn’t mind and would happily pay the original debt, it’s just he was never told of it). But apparently the debt has been subject to a compounding formula to the tune of over $250K and he is now having his wages garnished. The NZ government refuses to negotiate any lower amount and refuses to allow him to pay just the original debt

    As he has no assets, they cannot come after him in that regard. He has struggled for many years trying to run his own business and has in the last year managed to get into a job that will allow him to gain skills and advance

    However, he feels the only option left now is to forget about a future career or any future in the workforce for that matter

    Oh, the child still lives with him and he is more than happy about it and will continue to assist them even though they are over 19 years now – so it’s not about the money, except for the fact that the NZ government has now backed him into a no-win situation

    How is it that society benefits from this type of thuggery?

    For all those years he tried to do what he could within his means to help his child and is continuing to do so, but now an 800 pound Gorilla wants to thump any life left in him and cut off his future means of supporting his child fully as he would like to be able to do. The job he has pays low but it had the hope of eventually turning to a higher level of income once his skills increased but with debt levels being imposed by the NZ government that are clearly stupid in regards to the original debt, he feels opting out of the whole societal system is where he is headed to

    What a broken system indeed – I’m betting some pencil neck pimple faced kid fresh out of school came up with the compounding formula – yeah, it probably looked like it would work on paper – that’s what’s so lacking in government organisations now, people with real world understanding of a bigger picture

    Reminds me of the stupid laws about internet downloading. What does the NZ government think will eventually happen long term if they continue to cut off peoples access to the internet? Eventually you alter someones social economical status and drive their ability to gain a higher income down, which in tern has flow on effects to government tax intake which in turn reduces social service levels which in turn…You will eventually end up with a second classed tier in society! Yes, it’s a connected system people and people working with people, not beating them up works best long term. Isn’t this why governments passed spent conviction laws? Because they saw that long term it impacted on society overall if left unchecked just slamming people with the punishment stick

    In time society will be forced to deal with these stupid rules that pit families against one another and center purely around money only – until that happens there’s going to be a lot of broken bodies on the way 🙁

  110. MurrayBacon says:

    I suspect that IRD Child [and Spousal] Support agency contribute about 30% of younger middle aged men’s suicides. Of those, about 95% are the payers and 5% their own staff, who are vicariously traumatised by the nature of their tasks.

    As taxpayers, we are paying a lot of money to keep a handful of clerks and computer technicians off the streets.

    When you consider that more than 50% of the transfers would occur anyway without their efforts, then the actual cost of the money they transfer, that without them wouldn’t be transferred, is probably over 1$ per $ transferred. What an achievement?

    When you take into account the impact of Child [and Spousal] Support manipulation, by many of the mothers who see it as their “right”, rather than as protecting their children, children lose a lot of quality of upbringing in the wake of misuse of this legislation.

    You can call it “supporting mothers to take care of children”, but our children daily face the reality of this legislation. It is too often used to force fathers to contribute cash, where the more valuable for the children contribution would be care and time.

    This is a conflict of interest between the children and the greedy mothers. The mothers are listened to and the children are unrepresented! (No, I am not suggesting to appoint more legal workers to represent them, in fact I am suggesting that the already appointed legal workers just ain’t doing their job.)

    If family of IRD CS staff and families of mothers and fathers who have escaped into suicide start to claim compensation from Government, then the true costs of this legislation will come to account…..

    If we want to improve the quality of life in NZ, we need to look at these issues from all perspectives and try to protect vulnerable people. When faced with familycaught$, many men are almost as vulnerable to being trampled and used, as the children.

    We are our own worst enemies, alas – MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

  111. hornet says:

    Murray – I think we have to look at this in the broader sense – this is about LEVERAGING massive borrowing against DEBT. The small amount collected or received each month processing transactions is NOTHING compared to the BILLIONS of dollars – BILLIONS of dollars being borrowed against the DEBT …….

    DEBT creation is the only way Govt can receive CURRENCY – create DEBT against people – Child Support is $2BILLION in PENALTIES alone – why would anyone allow PENALTIES to rise to $2 BILLION – that would be INSANE in anyones language – but NOT IF you are BORROWING against that DEBT…….there is NO incentive to decrease the DEBT – in fact the best practise for such a BUSINESS is to INCREASE the DEBT – MEN – WOMEN – MUMS and Dads, all NZ PARENTS – need to start understanding this concept – we are being used to leverage BORROWING.

    DEBT creation against anything of value – property, kiwi saver ( surprise surprise – why do they want to take control of that……leverage DEBT and take the management fees for themselves ) our LABOR is what gives monetary Value to CURRENCY. That is why creating DEBT against PARENTS who are forced to work hard to pay for is, is a very sound BUSINESS PLAN…….

    After ten years in the family court, after doing all I was asked to do, kept my nose clean etc – I now see why there was a DELIBERATE drive to keep me away from my own child – I have never had a court order enforced, I have been subjected to Parental alienation and my child has been harmed – and the ONLY reason someone would do that to a parent is to ensure they are forced to pay CHILD SUPPORT……………

  112. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Hornet, I think we near enough agree on the outcomes. I think you are attributing it all to competent corruptions, whereas I attribute it mainly to unembarrassed lazy greed and a lot of incompetence too.

    In the end, the exact reasons don’t really matter, it is the outcomes that do matter.

    A large number of couples separate amicably and make the best of the new opportunities that this opens. (Of course they are not paying out stupid legal bills and their new lives benefit accordingly.)

    Quite a few couples (especially where one or both separating parents is lazy or greedy or disabled by low level mental health problems) are torn apart by lots of manipulation and lies. When the dust has settled, most of their assets seem to have been miraculously been lifted off their backs and spirited away by the legal workers…

    Although there is an obvious lesson here, it seems that there is still a never ending queue of more suckers, waiting to go through familycaught$, those who don’t look far enough forward, before they leap.

    It reminds me of the sheep at the freezing works, sometimes waiting impatiently to get to the knife end of the abbattoir.

    Market Failure, would be an economist’s comment. So, the textbook solution is to open up the market to readily available information about what is going on. So, are there any barriers to these remedial measures taking place?

    Positive action will only occur after people meeting in person, discussing and making sure that things get better. Those people who are benefiting and holding our society back, must be taken out as quickly as possible.

    The familycaught$ only hurts people who take it seriously. People who don’t take it seriously are in a position to protect themselves from it.

    Cheers, MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

  113. hornet says:

    Murray – there was a time when I thought this might all just be Govt inefficiency and usual poor management – and there is an element of that I agree – but what if there is more to this………Ill email you separately about my latest – I am still keen to take up your offier of help if required – I was just waiting to see where my complaints went and as predicted – stone wall, refusal, fob off, – cant investigate, usual bollocks…….and a deliberate refusal to listen to FACTS and TRUTH….. thats two out of three agencies now who refuse to investigate govt operations……the same agencies that will without hesitation throw the book at the public…..so seems we have two sets of rules, two standards……One set of rules for them and one for us……

  114. Money man says:

    @ hornet,
    Clearly your understanding of the situation is a bit more ‘evolved’ than most however you are also only seeing a small bite of the bigger picture… To elaborate further on your theory we first need to look at the world debt based money system, how this came to be and how it operates today, who and what is controlling it and to what ends.
    Allow me to first say that it will all sound like conspiracy theory’ but if you maintain an open mind and look at the facts it will all start to make sense.
    YouTube has all the information you could want. Start with Rothchild family dynasty. This is a truly incredible story that I never tire of learning more about. Next Fractional banking system, Money as debt, How is money created etc. by this time you will be on a journey of discovery that is totally dumbfounding and as you delve more you will find many connections to….dare I say it…. The NEW WORLD ORDER..!
    I am a reasonably intelligent man and things like new world order are difficult to take seriously however after spending many hundreds of hours (possibly thousands now) researching, I have to admit that all roads seem to lead to Rome.
    But how does that affect us poor buggers dealing with cs and FC?
    The end game is total domination and control. Take all they have,cash, assets, land, divide families and social groups, pit one against another (racial division,et al), ensure preparation for civil unrest… In every country, then one day we wake up in a military state under full control.
    Sounds absurd.
    But look at some simple facts, every country bar three (I think 2 now) have a central bank (Iran, Syria, and North Korea being last men standing, and I think Iran is on the cusp of gaining theirs). Most or all countries have insurmountable national debt to offshore investors (who are they?) most countries are implemention changes to their constitutions and internal laws that remove natural freedoms from their populace and authorise massive transfers of wealth to governments and other departments and yes, this money and debt accumulation is borrowed against to create more national debt…
    This is why we are finding that the system does not sympathise with us as individuals and instead rapes us for all we have and more.
    It is deliberately set up this way.
    I am married,she has one that we get no cs for, I pay for two to two ex’s (both ird,one DPB)eldest daughter in home with step dad who pays for two, etc. both mothers have had a ‘go’ but eldest daughter mum is now at least amicable if not still a bit poisionous.Youngest daughter’s mum has caused me to distrust anything with two sets of lips, lying f$&#% @?!$Â¥ etc…lol
    However I see all sides of the problem and it’s a tough one.
    Personally I think the first thing that should happen is we should all be assessed on NET INCOME. That would appease most of us but the system is destructive in it’s very nature so that won’t happen.
    Do some due diligence on my statements above and prove me wrong.
    Love to hear feedback, positive or otherwise

  115. Money man says:

    Oh, and if you want to keep something back from the rapacious powers that be and leave some legacy for your children then start stashing some gold and/or silver bullion. Small amounts can be bought on trade me or from nz mint. Bullion nz was another good one from memory too. You may thank me for this advice in twenty years when the govt pigs have emptied your trough!!!

  116. hornet says:

    Assumptions assumptions – I was not already aware and well informed …….Truth v conspiracy – “Conspiracy theorist” – a title given to anyone who knows the facts and anyone -whose credibility a govt wants destroyed – which of course is the tactic we always see play out when those in power do not want people to know the facts of a matter. We see it play out everyday in Family court and during Child Support reviews – Acceptance of Facts would negate the ability continue the fraud – things must appear legitimate after all, and when they cannot – hey just change the rules……ie constitutional change, child support changes, etc….

    money man – Im sure you have also read Ian Wisharts TOTALITARIA – a book everyone should read – but wont because its not displayed in great numbers in any book store. Wonder why?

    Power and profit – all concerns today can be traced directly back to that – Deliberate Inflationary driven monetary policy – $85 Billion a month in free money to keep the banks solvent – is only going to make us all poorer as well as make everything cost more in the future – A LOT MORE – which is why we are all forced to pay more and more in tax and sell everything off….and then there is DERIVATIVES trading – placing bets on thin air – which is a bubble they could take to INFINITY if you think about it – there is no CEILING for such a scam …..

    – unless of course China under BRICS get their way and are allowed to start trading in YUAN – yes even China and Russia have woken up and realise that selling goods for worthless paper is not such a great deal after all……..So if China can sell OIL for the YUAN – ( Syrian and IRanian Oil – see any connection here as to why they are the ” ENEMY” ) then the current “PAPER” for ASSETS scheme is backed by nothing and the deck of cards must collapse – sorry we must have Economic Collapse or WAR to level the balance sheets and start again….

    Have I missed anything……sorry thats why the web must be shut down and controlled – and only those Journalists approved by the state can give you the news in the future – because Millions of people are all working this out for themselves…….and its why – mainstream controlled media is a dismal failure……..and the spying ……we need protecting from all those nasty people in “YEMEN” – thats a Conspiracy theory right there – What is a fact is that the general public have now become the enemy – because they are awake to the truth……..Arab spring – a direct result of millions of people being “INFORMED” through social media……..

    How to fix it all – History is a great master – what eventually caused ( 1929 stock market collapse started it ) the last great Depression – by 1933 Protectionism took effect – countries closed their borders and stopped trading globally – preferring to look after their own people – provide work for them and grow local business and industry……..that is the only way – Self Preservation is the only solution in the current climate……..

  117. Moneyman says:

    Yes..great to see information being conveyed to the masses via government subsidised internet networks, a source of amusement in itself, however a course of action needs to be considered.
    How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time of course, alas, by the time we finish dining we would have been a; locked up indefinitely under some obscure ‘terrorism’ legislation (rushed through parliament under cover of darkness for our sole benefit). B; locked up indefinitely for inciting political unrest (kiwispring?) or c; locked up indefinitely..add any reason, or none, here.

    Mike Maloney has some options although very limited.
    However, before I start on my next tirade of global, economic,political mayhem toward the masses speal I need to remind myself that to continue would quite possibly be construed as staging a hostile truther takeover of this informative and supportive child tax extortion page. So with this in mind I shall take my tirades away to another more appropriate forum.

    Which reminds me of an amusing story told by a mate recently, he was rung up by one of our endearing and beloved IRD representatives the other day asking him if he would mind changing the reference detail he was adding to his cs payments. As he was confident he had been accurate in his detailing he naturally asked why. Her reply was the detail ‘extortion payment’ was causing some embarrassment and needed to be amended. Not one to cause any unnecessary embarrassment to our friendly IRD staffers and sensing he could get a small task achieved in their office that he had been trying accomplish for some time he agreed on the condition that she go f@$& herself. Being relatively new to cs he is learning that governmental wheels turn very slowly as he waits patiently for a reply.

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