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Thu 4th October 2012

Lawyer for Family Court Hearing for Child Support

Filed under: General — rawkusworldwide @ 1:01 pm

Does anybody have personal experience or know of a lawyer well versed in the Child Support Act, they would recommend for a Family Court hearing for child support. Alternatively, any feedback on the best way to proceed with the Family Court if a lawyer is not engaged. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

70 Responses to “Lawyer for Family Court Hearing for Child Support”

  1. golfa says:

    Depends on where you are. Here’s a thought …. I reckon approaching a Lawyer who actually does Admin Reviews for the IRD would be a genius idea. No doubt they would claim that they have a Conflict of Interest BUT, it may expose them to some serious public ridicule ! Turning down a “real” client over feathering their nests with taxpayer money.

  2. hornet says:

    IF, and I mean a BIG IF you actually find someone who will help a FATHER – let us ALL KNOW. Also let us know how you get on with you case.

    Some experience I have had so far.

    1. Review people completely ignore FACTS – like income tax returns when determining your INCOME.
    2. Rather they rely heavily on MUMS OPINION.
    3. They will even use evidence of a child sent to spy on you. Regardless of AGE.
    4. If you had a large salary but recently lost it – dont expect any sympathy – they will chase you to the end of the earth for the same amount based on the HIGH INCOME you ONCE had – even wanting lump sums from any severance you may get.
    5. There is NO recourse for a FATHER to have an IMMEDIATE new determination at the time he has a change in INCOME.
    6. Rather you are expected to find money the money tree – ie sell any assets you have left to pay the determined amount until such time as you get a new review – which sadly will always go against you – no matter what you say – go talk to a tree – the effect is the same,
    7. A more discriminatory , and biased, oppressive system I have ever been involved in.
    8. So based on hearsay – you will be arrested if you dont pay the amounts they say.
    9. They will come to your house using Bailiffs – break onto your property using locksmiths, and take assets regardless of value – and sell them at a NO RESERVE auction to recoup what ever you owe – the scum who make the decisions dont make personal visits – they use others to enforce these draconian decisions for them.
    10. If the current review system was actually fair, was impartial, was based on INCOME – I would not have a problem with it, but it is not – it is another tool for the mother to have a go at DAD – TOTAL BLAME DIVORCE, using the heavy handed IRD to destroy you.
    11. if your a full time dad – that does not matter either – they will IGNORE this deliberately – still demand excessive payments from you, with extreme penalties leaving you little choice but to leave the country – because NO ONE WILL WANT TO HELP YOU.
    12. And if you have a current healthy relationship, kids and a new family – they dont care one bit. The stress and anxiety this causes the new relationship will ultimately destroy that as well – hell in my case they even stole my wifes personal vehicle and had that on auction to pay my child support arrears – if we had not intervened when we did – it would have been sold as well while we were away on holiday and we would still be fighting to get the value reimbursed. Another illegal confiscation of a NZ citizens assets – sound FAMILIAR ???? They have too much power – are totally unaccountable and will hunt you down like a dog.

  3. Gwahir says:

    You could try http://www.uof.org.nz Phone contact on site.

  4. Gwahir says:

    Don’t bother shifting overseas, they will hound you to the ends of the earth, Convert all your assets to cash – And hide it!

  5. Down Under says:

    What you have to understand is there are no rules in the family court, so basically you have to go in there and get screwed so you can appeal. Lawyers won’t go there; they are more likely to tell you to put up and shut up – that you have no choice but to make a deal with the state.

  6. Non Custodial Dad says:

    Wouldn’t really “recommend” any lawyer as they are simply all grafting bastards who will strip you of your well earned cash. That said, can give a name or two if you are based in Hamilton, one of whom specialises in CS matters! If you decide to do thing yourself you need to research, research, research and prepare, prepare, prepare your case. Also bone up on court procedures. In this regard court staff are supposed to provide advice if you are unrepresented AND the presiding judge is supposed to provide advice on the day too (see the FCs Protocol on the subject that is on the ‘Justice’ website (Family Court section). But don’t bank on it happening. It didn’t with me.

    Research should, of course, encompass the IRDs rules on FC and the Child Support Act and related legislation. Relevant case law to support your case is essential. This can be difficult to obtain without recourse to the same facilities that lawyers have. But it is possible. Look at FC CS decisions that should be available on its web pages.

    I assisted a friend on CS matters at Hamilton a few years ago and he was railroaded by the judge and IRDs presentation was appalling. The proceedings were curtailed by the judeg without giving my friend the opportunity to present his case. He said 7 words before the case was ended and ‘judgment’ reserved! You have been warned! GOOD LUCK with that… you need it in spades!!!!!!

  7. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear rawkusworldwide, I can give you the obvious survival strategies, just common sense of surviving on a tight, tight budget, without going irrecoverably insane. ph 638 7275

    I have heard one or two satisfactory stories about approaching familycaught$, for review of IRD child [and spousal] support assessments not based on evidence, with support from a legal-worker. Generally, I am not persuaded that most legal-workers improve your odds, beyond what a well prepared self litigant can do, to cover what they want to charge. If you are not very careful, your own legal-worker may do you more harm, than anyone else, IRD CS included.

    Some of the postings above give a rather depressing view about IRD CS. The system is setup with the intention of abusing non custodial parents. It is quite successful, in terms of driving NCPs (and CS staff too) overseas, insane or to suicide. It should encourage fathers to socially support their children, or feed them. Once you understand their desires and goals, you are partly protected, as the cussed parts in you try to deny them that success of spilled blood. This should be a major force to keep you alive, as well as wanting to support your children.

    Best wishes, MurrayBacon.

  8. Mits says:

    I would suggest contacting UoF or Murray from here for information on how to fight it without a lawyer but get a good support person or McKenzie friend who can help you.
    Basically the Femily caught is a circus and the judges are the clowns.
    Forget any ideas you have of justice and fair play.
    I agree with Hornet that if you actually do find a good lawyer then please let us all know who this person is as it would be the equivalent of finding a needle in a haystack (even that I think is an understatement)
    I wish you the best in your endeavours and hope you come through this OK
    but remember my comment the femily caught is a circus
    The issues are serious but taking these fools seriously is a huge mistake as they hide behind their secrecy to cover their sheer ineptness and incompetance. All the lawyers I came across were only interested in the dollars they would make from the case be it out of my pocket or legal aid from the ex.
    After spending (wasting) money on them I finally had enough and represented myself and got pretty much the same result but at much less cost and the personal satisfaction of being able to actually have a say in the hearing.
    Fight them tooth and nail and use every tool you can for a good outcome, be prepared and dont let them railroad you.
    All the best again hope you get what you are after

    Mits

  9. Gwahir says:

    Union of Fathers = http://www.uof.org.nz There is a contact phone number on site.

  10. hornet says:

    Also posted on another link – but relevant here as well – we need to get changes to protect our rights to privacy.

    New Zealands International obligations – United nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

    Article 16.1 – Children shall not be Subject to arbitrary or unlawful interference with their PRIVACY, FAMILY, HOME or CORRESPONDENCE.

    if this is the case – how is it that Child Support reviews allow the use of evidence garnered through the eyes of a child – sent my the mother to spy on the Childs other family, there home and what they are doing, what they are spending there money on, what they have.

    Why is it also acceptable in the current environment – that the childs non custodial family- DAD- must disclose all its private and personal information to the mother who uses a child in this way – I find it offensive and a complete breach of a fathers and his new families privacy that their entire life must be displayed on a plate to a person they no longer wish to have any contact with – is this not a massive breach of the privacy Act, and also a breach as defined in the UNC Right of the child – which includes the childs family.

    Why have we allowed the system to get away with this for so long??? The last person I want to share any information with is an ex, who has lied, restricted access to my child, and made life very unpleasant. But we currently have these demands made of us??

  11. Gwahir says:

    It seems that New Zealand has not fully ratified the United Nations Convention ,,,,,

    Its a good debating point but …….!

    As an example Foster Parents are freqently encouraged by CYF to change a childs name which is totally contrary to the convention!

  12. peter says:

    you only talk of child reviews, hornet.
    Family court is even worse where every aspect of fatherhood and paternal parenting is exposed , dissected and challenged, whereas motherhood and maternal parenting is on-the-whole sacrosanct and perfect.
    I for one was made to feel so wholly inadaquate of my own parenting skills I still refuse to even hold another baby.

  13. hornet says:

    peter, I agree and I should have included family court experiences in my comments – I have been and I am a great dad and father to my kids – I always have been – my wife of ten years tells me this every day – but if you spoke to the lies and crap the ex dumped on the table in family court you would think I was the worst prick in the world – and this is the problem – from my perspective if a good man can be destroyed by such a corrupt system – what chance is there for any father who reacts to the provocation and tries to stop someone harming his kids – women get away with yelling and screaming in front of the kids, stopping phone calls and mail, doing everything humanly possible to stop a dad seeing his kids – and the system DOES NOTHING ABOUT IT – I have proven this point as well – even with court orders in my favor, and psychological reports on the mothers bad behavior – the system does nothing – so I can see why fathers react = and get labelled like they do – CYFS, Police, and even the courts and lawyers are not helping you – so you are left with the only other option – walk away and abandon your kids, or deal with the problem yourself.

  14. peter says:

    I guess we’re in the same boat.
    I was clearly the biggest pratt in the world; my ex basically had fault with everything I said and did. I was guilty of everything. The worse possible ex husband and father.
    Well i didn’t walk away; my kids see me and love me, and personally I think I do a great job of fathering them. I don’t drink to excess; don’t use physical punishment; don’t even yell at them; I cook healthy(ish) meals; encourage fruit and veges; am never late picking them up or returning them (as far as within my control); etc etc. You get the idea.
    But I still won’t hold another’s baby.

  15. Divorced Man says:

    I haven’t read all this thread but I must say that I totally agree with Hornest – the current approach of family court, appointing a lawyer to the kids, the way Admin Review is handled, the sexist way in which the system is handling fathers etc – is ABUSIVE to the child in the long term view of his/her development, creating expectations that money, and only money, matters in this society that lacks values, that parents are ATM machines in which the court controls – regardless of the added value for their development and the child real needs (not necessary physical needs). In the eyes of a child, it is most likely to be psychologically abusive.

  16. Divorced Man says:

    In regard to the query about hiring a lawyer – I would do it only if you have $20,000 to $60,000 extra in your pocket. If the other party has a lawyer then most likely that the lawyers will start to play ping-pong on your expense. I think that the best strategy – especially if it is only the child-support-act on the table (i.e. – the maximum payments would be of a salary of $120K/year and there aren’t any thing else like violent / child care act etc) – I found out that it is maximum $20k/year for the first child – better to play a “zero game” strategy on that money without a lawyer than to pay it to a lawyer.

    I’m now in family court without a lawyer and one of the applications is in regard to this act. As you can read in my blog (I was too busy to write recently, but will add new experiences soon) the judge is indeed frustrated from time to time that I miss some of the points of the act, and don’t really understand their language but in the end – why should I pay to make the judge and the lawyers around relaxed? Who said that you HAVE to take a lawyer? Anyway the system will make you angry and abuse your children – the lawyer can’t change that – and the gain that the lawyer could get for you is really low (they can’t change the payments, it is regulated)….so…. my recommendation is to calculate your risk, and compare it to the expected expense that the lawyer would require.

  17. Down Under says:

    If you want to take a global view of the process (and this goes hand in hand with the thread skeptic has been discussing in ‘protecting children through separation’ about no fault divorce) with the power to end a marriage and control of the children in the hands of women then New Zealand effectively becomes the open prison for separated men at the bottom of the pacific. Either you accept the slave culture that has developed here or leave the country because the family court is not going to view it any other way except financially. There is no pressure on them to give a shit about the father-child relationship and consequently they don’t.

  18. hornet says:

    Divorced man = Take it to them mate – make them work for their money. From my personal experience the entire legal profession working on family court matters is a parasite on good fathers and is contributing to the harm being caused to good kids.

    I paid a fortune in Family court – 90% or more of my lawyers fees were – DEFENDING myself against false accusations – to protect my reputation, then fighting just to get time with my child, then dealing with Psychological abuse identified by a family court appointed professional as being totally the result of the mothers bad behavior, finally getting getting a court order for defined visits, then trying to get the family court to enforce there own order when it was breached by the mother – which they refused to do.

    NOTHING has ever helped us get a positive result – we did all the system asked of us, we went down every road – my wife and I had the time and the means to test this sham system and it did NOTHING to help my family, it did nothing to help stop horrible behaviour which was harming the kid, it did nothing to enforce my rights to see my child and to allow us to have peaceful quality time with that child, ,it did nothing to protect a child from harm – a child who is and has been harmed unnecessarily because the system refuses to deal with the causes of conflict and horrible behavior of mothers – my point in all this – the system is a fraud – a complete LIE. The system WILL NOT deal with bad behavior of mothers which is destroying dads and fking children psychologically.

    I have often wondered how I can hold the state accountable – for directly allowing harm to come to my child – because it refused to act – lawyers for child sit back and protect PROCESS – at the expense of a child being harmed in front of there eyes – all agreements we have as a country with Child Rights – United nations, and our own human rights and the Care of Childrens act – STATES – the the first priority is to PROTECT the rights of the child and ensure that all processes are in the best interests of a child – so tell me why a system sits back protecting ITSELF from procedural discrepancies – at the expense of the childs welfare. THAT IS THE CURRENT PROBLEM – lawyers looking after lawyers.

    You see I was taught years ago in criminal law – that there was a discretionary power for judges to over ride small errors in procedure especially if they were minor in nature, did not adversely effect the integrity of the evidence or how it was obtained and especally when it was more important to deal with the issue at hand. Ie – A childs being harmed or a decision should be made for the benefit of that childs welfare.

    So you would think, that when a child has been subjected to a history of bad behaviour by the mother – the court file is littered with affidavits over years describing these concerns – finally supported by two psychological reports from the family courts own professional – identifies severe harm = caused by bad behavior of the mother – stopping the child seeing the father = alienation. You would think that when the Mother breaches a court order to deliver the child to the father – with this horrible history as background – you would think that the judge would find it important to enforce his ORDER to ensure the kid is sent to the father. To protect the childs best interests – IE get the child to see her father. BUT NO – not in NZ, the judge refuses to issue the warrant to uplift = due to a Procedural matter – NOT BASED ON THE FACTS – which identified the breach of the order – NO he was more worried that the papers signed by the Registrar – who asked me to make corrections and swore the documents into court – were apparently not filed in the correct format. WOW – another kick in the guts from a system which is only looking after itself. Wankers.

    The child does not get to see us – AGAIN, more Severe harm from Alienation – the system directly to blame for refusing to get the child into my care.

    So what does a dad do – I should have gone around there – grabbed the child and sorted the mother out. But then I would be arrested – thrown in jail and the newspaper headlines would read – Horrible, abusive, violent father arrested snatching child from mother……..What they wont print of course – this only after doing all the system asked of him, spending every last cent he had to get the system to help him, the CYFS refused to help him, the police refuse to help him, the very court who issued the order so he could see his child – refused to enforce it – what the FK, and we are supposed to sit back and let this crap happen. its OBSCENE . They need a collective case from fathers seeking damages – costs , charging fathers for NO Service and for being a party to the harm being caused to children.

    So after than rant – the system WILL NOT HELP you dads – I have tried,, I have spent the money, I have done all they asked of e, and they WILL NOT HELP DADS see there children. Then they will sick the Child Support onto you to make sure you have no money left to fight any longer.

  19. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Hornet, you dealt with these thieves in good faith, as you should have been able to do.

    However, in the actual familycaught$, you invited abuse, by showing a willingness to open your chequebook for them. Would you walk down central Auckland, at 3 am on your own, with odd banknotes falling out of your pockets as you walked? Waving money around in familycaught$ is more dangerous than central Auckland at 3 am.

    This is why it is important that people know the truth about familycaught$.

    Incentives is the issue. You must manage their behaviour, rather than let them manage you. If you can show that you pay by constructive results only, you might have been treated much better. It is like the parable of the ten talents. You extend faith and trust cautiously, when they have shown they can succeed and only then. You never extend any more trust than you absolutely have to. Never trust them further than you can throw them.

    Best regards, MurrayBacon.

  20. hornet says:

    Divorced man – I forgot to also mention.

    Lawyer for child is supposed to action the request for a psychological examination of a child if there is harm being caused – justice department notes make mention of this fact.

    My childs lawyer for child = refused to take action – which meant I had to initiate it = at my cost.

    SO after spending $40K to get approval for the reports by the courts INDEPENDENT psychologist. The mother fought the applications because she had something to hide and did not want them.

    We have Two reports – and heres another shambles in the family court process.

    After conducting the first INVASIVE report which included home visits and personal interviews and school visits, and interviews with the child, the psychologist had to go back to court wasting more time asking for permission to EXPAND her investigation – because what she found during the first look – caused her that much concern. Nothing about me and my family – all concerns about the MOTHER.

    Would you not think, that if a court appointed INDEPENDENT professional was investigating harm to a child, it would be important they could report all CONCERNS – UNDER URGENCY, to protect the best interests of the child. That would make sense if they were looking after the childs interests as the first PRIORITY. Rather than having to go back for approval to expand her report – I mean harm to a child is harm – why waste time investigating and reporting it.?????????

    But in our case no – against every opposition from the mother she fought both the first and the second reports being conducted = All that meant was MORE COST TO ME< and MORE DELAYS in tabling the concerns effecting the child.

    All the same concerns I had been raising with the family court for years – hundreds of thousands of $$$ trying to get the system to act on these concerns. And help them stop.

    I pushed on, and paid the money, opened up my family to two invasive reports because we thought it would help the child and get these issues tabled = our concerns verified and finally get this before the family court.

    After the second report was finally tabled – again identifying the mother as causing the severe psychological harm to the child – NOT THE FATHER – no my wife and I were fine. ZERO Concerns with us.

    AFter getting these INDEPENDENT reports before the Family court = Guess what – we are then told – they were up for CONTEST by the person causing the problem -/………what is the point in having an independent report if the problem party can contest the findings. Fight having them them all the way – and when the results identify them as the concern – they can then challenge an independent report. What the FK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I Was then told it would cost me another $40K to keep going and defend the Courts own reports and fight the opposition now raised by the mother. Can you believe this. No neither could we. You are not going to get a win from a system so discriminatory and biased towards dads. NO way.

    All our hopes that something positive was coming for us were destroyed. We had all our concerns verified by a court psychologist – at our cost, only to have it all up for more challenge and more cost to us.

    Mean time the child is still being harmed, more so , because we have reduced our time seeing her – because frankly we cant be bothered dealing with the mothers shit – delivered with the child at every visit – which only disrupts our family – the GOOD FAMILY. The ones who are NORMAL and GOOD PARENTS – no the system protects the A-holes.

    MY wife and I walked away form any more court – we realised we were never going to get anything positive for us or the kid.

    For the record this is what they do to you. You pay, you pay, you pay, waste your life in court and we will not help you in any way -even if you are good, honest, great parents, and even if your kid is being fk'ed over by the mother.

    The most horrible experience of my life. Without question.

  21. hornet says:

    Murray, I thought at the time -sadly for me – that an institution set up to PROTECT children would actually do what it as set up to do.

    I did what I thought was the right thing at the time to get some time with my child. If I had not – I would not have seen my child at all, and would not have the relationship that I do have – so in a sense it at least gave me some form of bond with my child to work on, rather than her not know me at all.

    I was not aware it was so corrupt until after the fact – had I known what it was like, I would not have spent a cent.

    We – my wife and I believed at each stage of the process that we were doing the right thing – hahaha, yeh right.

    if it happened again – my advice now is – run away – disown the child = head to thailand and have a life free from persecution and bias.

    My point in disclosing this fact to other dads was to highlight that even if you have everything in your favor, – good father, no history of violence, a good family , a loving wife, other children , all the things which collectively should identify you are being a good parent capable of looking after your child – you will still struggle to get a positive result from this corrupt system.

  22. hornet says:

    murry,

    here is the dilemma for every father = if you see your child being HARMED. Do you step in to protect and defend them from that harm or not – of course you do – parents – especially fathers are hard wired to protect there family.

    So in this world we have two choices – We could step in and act physically against whatever is harming your family ( child ) or we can seek the help of a system which leads you to believe it can and will help you.

    When as in my situation I put a lot of weight on the fact that I have good family, a great wife and another child – which is important to me – so in that sense the path I walked was one which protected that interest over all else. That is my future.

    So I chose the system – spent the money, rolled the dice, thinking it would help.

    I do often wonder how I would have reacted if I had not settled again – if I did not have a family worth protecting.

    Im not sure I would have reacted the same.

    What grinds most men, is the fact they are helpless in the current situation to do anything – they must sit back and watch there kids be harmed, while also taking a massive amount of provocation – so unless they toe the line, all other paths only lead to arrest, possibly prison and a life of misery, branded forever with protection and violence orders to keep you in line.

  23. hornet says:

    Murray = and thats what the system PREYS on, a fathers love of his children, and his reaction to them being harmed.

  24. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear hornet,

    what you are saying has been said by many, many men and quite a lot of women too, who didn’t know what familycaught$ was about (or hadn’t listened when they were told). Canadian father’s solution in dire situation

  25. hornet says:

    So what are we collectively doing about it? Why is this allowed to carry on – for every new generation of separated fathers? Same shit different participants???? This is what staggers me – you say I should have known about the concerns before I started – sadly thats a problem for most dads = because until you become a victim of the system – you dont know at the time that what you are doing in good faith is such a sham. Its only after you come out the end of it all and get no where – that you sit back and start researching and digging around sites like this. Having to Work, driving miles to see your kids, attending court and all the other distractions prevent most dads having any spare time to sit back and understand what is happening – its always easier to sit on the periphery of someone elses problem and see where they are going wrong – but you never get that perspective when you are in the game.

    What I will continue to pass on to fathers new to this site is as you rightly say – the same thing which is said over and over again.

    Dont waste a cent with lawyers – demand a visitation schedule which works for you – large blocks of time in holidays I have found works best giving you QUALITY TIME and stick to it. Ignore bad behavior of mothers – because the system will not stop it, and will certainly not work to help fathers prevent it. So dont fall into the trap and react to provocation – If it gets all too hard – walk away and enjoy yourself – keep fit and healthy and be ready to receive a child in the future who will need a lot of support – they all become adults eventually and will understand the truth one day. Not much else you can do as I see it.

    You could waste your time trying to expose a government for running such a charade – a lawyer benefit – but if we add the concerns of fathers – to all the other concerns with present day government – where they discriminate, dictate and do what they like across the board – we dont live in a democracy – I cant see it changing in a hurry. Unless of course there is a cost saving to govt, or a way to reduce liability, or accountability for there actions – these are the only improvements they ever make.

  26. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear hornet, I suggest to help other men, by giving them access to other people’s previous experience in familycaught$, so that they can make the best of familycaught$. If you would like to help with this, please make contact… Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  27. peter says:

    Hornet, I agree with what you say. But also from a different tangent.
    I agree with denying leechlike lawyers a living (income); but am also of the persuasion that men MUST fight through family court. Even if only to obtain a pathetic outcome.
    Yes, we’re all up against it with little hope of fairness, justice, equality, but I like to think ONE DAY the wheels will turn a little, and someone will look back at cases like yours, and realise the injustices committed. Certainly when your children are old enough to read your files, they will see where the abuse originated.
    I personally think men should send copies of their files to MPs and also the PM and ask simple questions such as why are certain abuses allowed to continue.
    One or even 100 files won’t make much impact – we’d all get a stock letter back. But 10,000 files? cc journalists (removing identifying features, of course).
    The real question is how to mobilise 10,000 men. How to inform men how to send salient details (within the limits of family court law, of course, & unfortunately).

  28. peter says:

    I cant see it changing in a hurry. Unless of course there is a cost saving to govt

    roflmao!
    How about cutting thee entire women’s refuge / domviolence industry. God that’d save billions!!!!
    Oh no, sorry, we can’t do that. Then how will all those femmies make their living? REAL work???

  29. Mits says:

    Tricks that stood me in good stead when I finally gave up throwing away money on lawyers in the femily caught and represented myself were
    study the applicants and lawyer for child (aka mother lawyer backup team)affadavits before hand and whenever they drift off course dont be afraid to shuffle your papers and interupt to ask the clown (aka Judge) what part they are currently refering to.
    I found when I was paying a lawyer they were all happy to let the talks spiral off the subject and at the end of the alloted time all sit back with no outcome achieved and schedule another date to get their snouts back into the trough. Putting a stop to this with polite questions seemed to upset all the legal beagles in the room.
    Also whenever you are asked a question for gods sake stop and think, take your time, have a sip of water (I went through three jugs of water at one sitting contemplating their questions) then with studied clarity ask them politely if the could repeat the question.
    At the risk of sounding sexist my brushes with some of the female lawyers in the femily caught has shown me that they will waffle on throwing out outrageous statements and comments trying to goad you into an outburst that will not stand you in good stead if you react as a normal man would.
    Allow them to finish their diatribe take a sip of water and politely as you can ask them to repeat the question and watch the look of exasperation as they realise they can’t remembver half of what they were going on about.
    As others have mentioned on this site before dont try to defend the indefensible. If its not in their affadavit then once again shuffle your papers and ask the clown what section they are quoting as you dont appear to have it.
    Dont accept any paperwork that the lawyer for child or the ex’s lawyer try to hand to you after the prescribed time for filing papers even when they try to give it to you in the foyer as you are walking in. The femily caught seems to look on anyone without a legal background a fodder for them to gorge on. The distain from them if you get one of their continuosly changing terms wrong are a sight to see, dont let this phase you, be overwhelmingly polite.
    Its still a coin toss whether you get the outcome you desire and admittedly the above comments come from someone who has always been the respondent dragged into that hell hole never having made an application myself but having to respond to the ex’s plans for another day out at the lovely family court with all those nice people who see and agree with her point of view and will go out of their way to chastise me as the horrible one without ever meeting/speaking or even laying eyes on me.
    I have found as a father you can’t win in the femily caught but there are different degrees of losing
    Mits

  30. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Peter and hornet, it is important to challenge familycaught$. I know there are quite a few women and men screwed over, but it only happens because men and women don’t work together, to develop commonsense and protection of children, in familycaught….. Cooperation and teamwork is more important than big amounts of money. So, lets not talk depressed, that is being beaten by giving up, beaten by our own decision! Lets act in the positive,

    Cheers, MurrayBacon – maniacal axe murderer.

  31. Lawless Bob says:

    And if you DO defend yourself, make sure you have up to date copies of both volumes of Family Law – I mean both the Legislation AND the commentary.
    Stick a heap of yellow stickies in at random pages. Its amusing as they wonder which points of law you’ve tagged. Even meaningless ones!
    Although you need to be comfortable with those points you’re arguing on, so you don’t look a right testicle. IOn your copy HIGHLIGHT liberally those parts that are relevent to your case.
    But be warned – for Admin Reviews this will piss off the Review Officer, who will probably adjudge you more harshly for being a smart ass.

    Speaking of lawless lawyers, pepper your statements, especially those to the judge, with emotive comments such as ‘repugnent to natural justice’ and ‘[not] in the child’s best interests’. sounds like tripe, but hey, your ex will have done the same at her lawyers’behest , with statements like ‘he made me feel intimidated’ and ‘I was living in perpetual fear of what he might do’

  32. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Lawless Rob of ADLS, in my opinion, if you go to familycaught$, rather than just be a showman or village idiot, surely you should aim to be competent, to be acting clearly in your children’s interests. Just because there are thieves and clowns and idiots around, is no excuse to be any of those yourself. If you are concerned for your children, then act accordingly. If you descend to the level of some of the thieves or clowns, then you are not taking seriously, the reason that you are there. Lets aim to protect our children properly, MurrayBacon.

  33. Divorced Man says:

    Thanks for this thread and stories. It helped me a lot. I think that family court is indeed familycaught$ – and we need to let people know it. I would say that it is a zero-sum game meaning that NO MATTER what you do – you can’t earn anything there. The system is built like that – and especially in NZ because of the historical function of the government sector as the largest employer (unlike other countries). I’m writing a strategy for fathers, how to deal with it, simple to avoid any expense.

  34. hornet says:

    Peter 27/8 I am not sure I would ever burden my child with all the paperwork to prove my point and expose the real reason she was allowed to be exposed to such horrible treatment – and suffer long term harm – The kids had enough of that from the mother already.

    NO its the system all all its servants who are directly to blame. For allowing it to go on unabated.

    But I agree with where you and Murray are coming from. Positive action is required to sort this.

    The Justice system, and the Govt need to be exposed and held accountable for what they are allowing – In my view they are a party to the harm being caused to children.

    Family court is supposed to be there for the protection of childrens interests IN THE FIRST INSTANCE and ABOVE ALL ELSE and yet we see time and time again, the system supports, encourages and allows behavior, which is harming kids.

    So yes sending summaries of the injustice, the harm, the direct OPPRESSION of men, by making a system too costly to get a positive result for most dads.

    And even if you do spend money, and win a ruling = the system will not help enforce its own orders to protect a fathers rights to see the child, and to protect children from harm.

    So stopping a child from having quality time with the father – and by not actively assisting that process and by not actively protecting the child from bad behaviour which assists that alienation – is harming the child.

    (This is in direct contradiction to the Care of Children act – and the United Convention on the rights of children.)

    A system which deliberately prevents access to a father, does not actively facilitate it and which refuses to create legislation which actually protects a fathers right to see his child, devoid of all the bad behavior the system knows about with enforced penalties to those who do – is allowing this harm to continue – so in my view that makes them a party to the offending.

    So on that note, that is the fight which must be taken – a direct approach addressing the generic and known problems facing all dads, rather than getting involved in the intricacies of each case.

    There are some very specific concerns which can be taken to politicians – yes that must be done – individually putting them on the spot with direct questions as to whether they support the realities of the current system of not.

    You either support a system which actively prevents a dad from seeing his kids or you do not.
    You either support a system which allows false accusations and lies being told – going unpunished in the family court or you do not.
    You either support a system which allows a child to be manipulated and leveraged for property or you do not.
    You either support a system which allows all the known bad behavior – the result being it assists the active alienation of the child from a parent – or you do not.
    You either support bad behavior which PSYCHOLOGICALLY HARMS a child or you do not.
    If bad behaviour exists which is harming a child – should it be punished or not? Legislated against or not.
    Court orders must be enforceable by the POLICE and CYFS under urgency – WITHOUT DELAY – because delays are harming childrens access to fathers ( and mothers ). Do you support this or not?
    Psychological assessments of both parents should be conducted where bad behavior is identified or complained of, and those results by this independent professional shall be BINDING – Not open to abuse and attack like I have seen where the perpetrator can discredit the findings – further allowing the child to be harmed and delays only amplifying the concerns.
    If HARM is noted in any investigation it must be reported IMMEDIATELY and UNDER URGENCY – NO DELAYS seeking expansions of briefs to include other matters which are effecting children.
    Lawyers for CHILD – must be made to report any matter – behaviour they see causing harm to there clients – FIRST AND FOREMOST – over protecting Court PROCESS.

    You see if you nip some of these issues in the bud, it takes away many of the ways in which dads are being manipulated into conflict.

    Demands must be made for the system to DEAL with the CAUSES – of CONFLICT, and putting in place PENALTIES for Parents and Lawyers who engage in BEHAVIOR which encourages more CONFLICT – rather than working towards resolving it.

    Politicians will not want to be made directly aware of issues, because then they have to make a decision – and have an opinion – notice how convenient it is these days for them to DENY ever hearing about an issue . A Cowardly way to escape having an opinion on matters which effect peoples lives.

  35. hornet says:

    Additional points which need to be addressed.

    1. Privacy act breaches – after separation both parents should be allowed Privacy in there new lives.
    Currently all personal information is shared between separated parties and I find this offensive – its currently legislated that it must be shared – when determining Child Support matters.

    Another thing I note in Privacy matters concerning children under 17, is that he Best Interests of the child must be taken into account before information of a private nature can be disclosed.

    So why is it that Child Support happily accept information garnered through the eyes of a child – and use that information over facts of actual income to determine child support – this in my view is adding to the harm already being caused to the child in making them spy on another parent – and is a breach of the effected families right to privacy in their lives as they move forward.

    Child support must be based on INCOME alone, not on hearsay and opinion of an ex partner – with provisions for IMMEDIATE changes to be made in payments, when circumstances change – not this bullshit having to keep paying for years after you lose your job – that is discriminatory and oppressive.

  36. shafted says:

    Oh yes Hornet. I get you.
    Why does my ex wife have access to my financial details 6 years after seperation?
    I consider this to be an absolute invasion of my privacy
    Also, the review officer accessed my partner’s financial records via IRD and made comment about her financial situation in her decision (none specific and Guarded )but nevertheless i consider it to be an absolute invasion of her privacy.
    I guess you can’t stop children talking, even if they are interrogated prior to dobbing you in on real or imagined events and facts.

  37. hornet says:

    Shafted, when you have a child who has been psychologically destroyed, and the system supports more bad behavior by accepting evidence gathered using that child, they are increasing the harm to the kid – not helping prevent it. MY child was very upset, crying and when I asked her what the matter was – she replied – i have to count things you own – this after property has been settled and the ex has had a more than generous payout. They still want to control your life, and both them and the system then want to persecute you for allowing yourself any perks or enjoyment after divorce – no they want you permanently destitute and unable to travel, own any toys or do anything which might be perceived that you are enjoying yourself…..cant have that now!!!!!!

    Another thing which has really rubbed me up the wrong way – was the recent invasion of my home, to take assets = which I have owned for a long time – family vehicles ( My wifes included which was illegally seized and returned just before sale when I made the mistake known to the idiots). No apologies either to my wife for stealing her vehicle – NOTHING. No apologies for the stress they have created on a good family – my kids included – who grew up with these vehicles. How fking low is that to take a families vehicles. Both of them. While we are away and had my parents not heard about it, they would have been sold before we returned – thats just plain wrong in anyones language. Wrecking good families.

    Its like, how dare a father have assets left after divorce – hes not on a high income, so lets just take what he has left and sell it off to pay the maximums we demand – demands based in an ex partners viewpoint with evidence from a child, rather than FACTUAL accounting returns which clearly show I no longer earn a high income.

    The system had many other options available before taking the heavy handed – theft of family assets to extort funds under threat of sale at a no reserve auction. Thats just plain wrong.

    You see I asked why they did not take me to court to get a ruling on the excessive child support I am being asked to pay – an amount based on maximums when I no longer earn those amounts. I know, Im supposed to take the system to court to prove otherwise – bad advice and a total reluctance to engage in Family Court again after years of disappointment.

    I was burnt out, had no more money and had lost the fight – and it SHOUD NOT HAVE TO BE THE CASE, that a FATHER has to take a discriminatory, biased oppressive system to court to prove the system wrong – if my tax returns are FALSE, why dont they have a go at the accountants who charge the earth to prepare them? Do filed tax returns have no meaning when assessing child support. Do agreements reached at family court level specifying that child support is to be assessed on INCOME as per the standard formula. Thats what I agreed to – not some hairy arsed alternative version whereby some green eyed envious feminist lawyer with an axe to grind – who refuses to read your submissions and refuses to see you personally, so its not even a fair and impartial interview – can look at assets you have left and make a determination on that alone – excluding any facts concerning income. That is just plan corrupt.

    I have asked this Question many times and they refuse to answer it – IS CHILD SUPPORT BASED IN INCOME OR ON ASSETS??

    And yet they would not want this in front of a judge or third party, because the facts are I dont earn a high income. So the current ruling would be declared totally wrong if it was heard by a third party. Sadly I had very bad advice and never took the system back to Family court right at the start – so now the current decision is there until the next review – and im expected to find funds out of thin air, or have assets stolen again to pay.

    And Shafted there is one other problem with all this – they WILL NOT INCLUDE the new partners income to the MOTHER – I have asked this. So you had your new partner investigated because you are the father – I have asked why the gold digger I had the misfortune of meeting and who has gone digging some more – does not have to include her her partners income. They are NOT INTERESTED in a mothers new partner – only a fathers – more DISCRIMINATION. Which needs to be stopped.

    Like you, my wife and I are totally disgusted in a system which expects us to open up all our privacy to some maggot I got rid of ten years ago. The law needs to change – to allow fathers and there new partners to move on.

    And lastly I ask the Question – why are INCOME TAX returns of INCOME not the basis for assessing child support – PERIOD!!!!! especially when they are prepared by chartered accountants – it demeans this industries professional integrity by refusing to accept them as real and true and correct. I have asked what the point in even paying for them to be prepared if they are not accepted by child support – I mean this, what is the point in actually having accounts prepared at cost if they have no value in proving your income. If they were accepted – it would save all this other conflict, and the use of children to score points.

  38. Viet Cong says:

    #32
    Right on Murray.
    Despite the clowns and other parasites we need to focus on our children and putting some decency into a corrupt system.

  39. shafted says:

    Hornet. Here has been a typical week for me (true story-this week).
    Wrote to the IRD some weeks ago stating that her financial details as per the admin review are false and amounted to an attempt to mislead (and probably income tax evasion on her part). Not even the courtesey of a reply as yet despite me having chased it up twice.They hauled my arse into admin review, spent eleven minutes with me and had a $70,000 decision (over 9 years) out to me within about three weeks.
    Was invited to pick the children up approximately four hours drive away for my normal mid week contact with them
    Have been advised that she is taking an overseas trip of five weeks despite parenting order allowing for four.When i fired back an email pointing out terms of the parenting order i was advised that i was HARRASSING her and that i should desist.
    Had my children for a week and despite being (i feel) a good father, had one of them crying and wanting to be with mummy the first half of the week, and every time we made progress, the “every second day” phone call would occur that would whip the child up into another needy frenzy. I am standing by watching my beautiful daughter being coached into being a none coper that cannot cope with life on life’s terms. Like her mother, she is learning to disrespect men, and like you Hornet, is encouraged to report back on every thing that happens within my household-food,alcohol, spending habits, activities etc etc.Like you, i cannot afford to throw more money at this disgusting system as regardless of agreements reached, she bends the rules till they are completely out of shape.
    I have been brought to my knees financially and still the hits keep on coming. Have been reassessed for a year 3 years ago (long story ) and they are demanding a further $16k out of me which i cannot pay.I wish i was a different person because this shit permeates every moment of my existance. I have tried all the strategies i have seen in here, but the reality is, we love our kids and cannot walk away.
    The system relegates us to some sort of back ground baffoons that are incapable of making any decent parenting decisions as those are entirely HER domain. The system teaches them that they have entitlements and we have obligations-in the main, financial. The system also subliminally re-enforces their opinion that we are idiots and incapable of adding any value to the parenting process.
    I cannot properly enjoy my time with the kids because her vapid, vicious, vindictive presence is always in the air.
    Not a great week!

  40. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Shafted,

    sorry about advertising, but PAS support: Dr. Richard Warshak’s DVD Welcome Back Pluto (I don’t know if it is good.)

    http://menz.org.nz/2012/the-terror-of-the-politically-correct-karen-woodall/

    I have a few books also, that I could lend, so don’t just give in to this manipulation…
    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  41. hornet says:

    Shafted – mate you have a very similar story to mine, except I think mine has gone on longer and gotten worse. hence my previous comments about the only way to protect your new family and the child to an extent is to just reduce visits and limit the opportunity for distress – and sadly THE ONLY OPTION I have seen in this corrupt system is for dad to remove himself from the equation – NOTHING else works.

    1. I agree with you as to what all this rotten behavior this does to the child. My child is exactly the same – a shell of a human being, distressed, anxious – all the symptoms of a child who has been mind fked. Suffered SEVERE PSYCHOLOGICAL HARM as per the family courts own professional – NOTHING DONE ABOUT IT.

    2. I agree with you as to the concerns you list about visits being unhealthy – I have identified to the family court just about every bad behaviour which can be performed on a child – which DIRECTLY effects my quality time with the child – when we are supposed to have court ordered time with her.

    The worst tactic – which is permitted – is when the mother is allowed to PROMOTE OTHER ACTIVITIES which should be attended during your time – and which the child – after the brainwashing – then believes is MORE IMPORTANT than seeing DAD.

    This happens pre – most visits. Its become the NORM.

    3. We have – like you had to drive four (4) hours round trip to pick up a child – who breaks down and cries when we arrive – STRESSED out Because mother has promoted an activity that the child has been forced into THINKING is now more important than seeing us.

    The kid loves us, no question – but is being mind fked and stressed – and pressured into agreeing with what the mother wants – ANY ACTIVITY WHICH IS NOT WITH DAD – this goes on TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

    So on those occasions we just walked away, left the child in the care of the mother – thinking it was better to do that that heap more stress on the kid and force the visit.

    4. Like you – we have COURT ORDERS FOR ONE PHONE CALL per week – we had to get this in place – that the child called us – because EVERY TIME we phoned – the child was TIRED, TOO BUSY, PLAYING, every excuse as to why the child could not come to the phone. SO we get a court order that the MOTHER must make the child call us – at a specific time and day every week – this Court ordered requirement is BREACHED every time. Especially when the child has a great time with us during and extended visit – we see a dramatic fall off in contact at least for several months – no phone calls until the child is REPROGRAMMED – and forgets what a good other family she has. This happens every time.

    And the system expects fathers to go back to court – spend more money they dont have to get these orders enforced – and as in my case – I proved the point – THE FAMILY COURT WILL NOT ENFORCE A COURT ORDER for a FATHERS RIGHTS.

    5. I agree with you as to INTERFERENCE by the EX during VISITS – we have had the same shit – EVERY TIME – MOTHER CALLING all the time – demanding phone calls in the middle of visits with us – and yet – we have to go MONTHS with NO CONTACT – have Letters RETURNED with comments that the child can open her MAIL only when she is with us – you name it mate we have had it all, and its accepted – the family court lawyers state – we cant help with that. What a total sham.

    THIS SHAM FAMILY COURT – knows of all this BEHAVIOR – IT HAS dealt with the same COMMON practices of DISGRUNTLED parents – and the FAMILY COURT and all its officers have allowed this to go unabated for decades – Causing HARM TO KIDS and HARM TO GOOD PARENTS.

    Couple that with the current practices of Child Support Enforcement and you have one sick system.

    The actual practice of the CHILD SUPPORT review must be attacked and exposed – HOW CAN any system, which refuses you FACTUAL information, uses hearsay, and fabrications over fact – expect any person to NOT REBEL against it. A process which has such a significant effect on a fathers life – MUST BE ROBUST and TRANSPARENT – NOT DICTATORIAL and OPPRESSIVE.

    And on the basis of these horrendous practices currently allowed in this country – you are expected to also take as a consequence for breaching these obscene rulings – A Loss of Freedoms, be arrested, be restricted from leaving your own country, have property seized and stolen, have your privacy eroded, have your new family interrogated as if they were all criminals. This is just all so totally unacceptable in a modern society – it MUST be exposed for what it is. A national disgrace that they currently get away with it. Understand this DADs and effected parents – on the basis of these offensive reviews, the system uses that Ruling to enforce all the other consequences and demands. Not even the criminal justice system gets away with that. You at least get the chance to present evidence of FACT – and have it valued over hearsay and opinion.

    Where are you Shafted? perhaps time to get together and take this to another level, and prepare to expose a system which is so dysfunctional and so discriminatory, so biased towards good parents.

  42. shafted says:

    I am in Auckland Hornet. You could email me a contact number on alanunknown46@gmail.com and i could call-will be later on today if that’s ok.
    Yep-as we speak i am waiting for one of her “lawyered up” letters which will point out once again that i am an alcoholic bullying abusive controlling type that she should be protected from (Guarded threat to cause me grief under a ridiculous protection order she obtained against me). Also an attempt to get me to back off on my insistence that she adheres to the terms of the parenting order.
    Chuck in a couple of threats about the police (for added surreal insanity) and there you have it-another perfect day in paradise. It does not matter that the intimidation and harrassment and abuse are a figment of her imagination (or worse still-totally made up to cause me grief). The point is, she has a totally insane vendetta against me and there is nothing in the system-cops,lawyers, courts, doctors=ANYTHING that can get her to stop.LMFAO

  43. shafted says:

    And thank you Murray

  44. hornet says:

    IGNORE IT ALL – its only intent is to get a reaction – Constant Provocation is the name of the game. Been there done that.
    As for the system and any of its servants helping a dad in distress – forget it – Ive had the same experience – we are on our own – until of course we all band together to fight this. Actually I dont think I have ever been involved in something whereby you are so isolated from any help at all. When I say help – I mean something which actually helps stop the problem and removes the personal distress created by others. ill email you shortly. Cheers and best of luck Hornet

  45. hornet says:

    Human Rights Commission of New Zealand.

    Response to my complaint – and they refer to the many complaints they receive of a similar nature – relating to the Discrimination fathers are facing at the hands of the Family court and Child Support procedures.

    As Below.

    The Commission has received quite a number of approaches over the years with similar concerns, in relation to the Family Court system, that is complaints that the process discriminates against men and fathers when compared with women and mothers. The Commission has considered this whole issue very carefully and while it recognises the significance of this matter to you, the legislative provisions of the Human Rights Act 1993 relating to complaints of unlawful discrimination preclude it from progressing any matter to do with a judgement or other order of a Court, including that of the Family Court. Accordingly your matter will not be progressed as a complaint of unlawful discrimination on the grounds of sex.

    SO what do we have here fathers – acknowledged in this response –

    What we have here is a system which is actively allowing discrimination – according to this – its OK for a PROCEDURE to be Discriminatory especially if it emanates from the family court or other court judgement or process.

    ( I do not see anything in the legislation relating to the offence of discrimination – which prohibits a process from being discriminatory – but apparently the very human rights commission has been HOG tied and prohibited from progressing complaints of this nature – so what do we have here – is a deliberate legislative protection allowing governments and judicial practice to be discriminatory without consequence) This is appalling.

    There is more but I wont bore you all with the detail unless of course you want to see it.

  46. Skeptic says:

    Ah yes, the New Zealand Human Rights Commission – another decade rolls by and they still pull the same old misandric shit. They are a complete waste of space when it comes to sexism against men. Totally captured by feminist dogma.
    About 2 years ago I wrote to them about Whitcoulls Bookshops nationwide selling a book called
    “All men are Bastards”
    and I got pretty much exactly the same response as you Hornet.
    BTW WHittcouls Central Auckland branch were placing the book RIGHT NEXT TO THEIR CHILDREN’S SECTION on a LOW SHELF AT CHILD’S HEIGHT as though the title and message was fit for children to see. Bigoted scumbags.
    When I went into the store and politely and assertively pointed that out to the store manager and asked her to have it removed, she got defensively angry and had the affront to try telling me I was harassing the store with an unreasonable request. I responded by inviting her to lay a complaint with the police for my ‘harassment’ (she never did as she knew as well as I did that going to the cops would only draw attention to the incident – the last thing she wanted).
    Seeing she wouldn’t budge on the issue I then told her I was disappointed by her attitude and I’d be going further with the issue and left the store.

    As regards the femily caught$ –
    I reckon it’s only a matter of time before somebody ‘accidentally’ leaves a cellphone sound recorder going during femily caught$ session/s and sends the recordings to the media.

  47. Skeptic says:

    Sorry, Error.
    In my post above (#46) I should have said I wrote to the Human Rights Commission about 20 years ago, not about 2 years ago.

  48. hornet says:

    Sceptic, from what i am seeing – every aspect of our system – has protection built in for the legislators – THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY at all – read exactly what this response says – Governments and the Judiciary can and will discriminate through process, practice and or court rulings – but the HUman rights Commission is NOT ALLOWED to investigate.

    This is similar to the Breach of a Court order by a mother in the family Court – A breach by a mother is NOT enforced, and the POLICE – who usually arrest people for breaching Court orders = that was always my experience – are specifically NOT ALLOWED to act on a breach issued by the Family court.

    Unless of course DAD breaches one – then they are all over us like a rash.

    I am finding it really disturbing as I review Legislation, Human Rights Act legislation, and our United Nations Convention on the Rights of Child ( UNCROC ) which New Zealand Ratified in 1993 – I have seen first hand multiple breaches by our justice department and the rulings coming out of the court and resulting directly from government approved practices and proceedures.

    In fact it is these breaches which affect us all – most Dads and Children – and yet as I am now finding out -there is NO ACCOUNTABILITY for the system, and NO Means of having them held to task. Every road I track down I see roadblocks protecting the state from any responsibility or accountability – when children are deliberately harmed, used, manipulated, and also when fathers are deliberately withheld contact from there children, spyed on, have there privacy breached, and have to endure horrendous bad behavior which is also harming children and there relationships with dads – and it is the practices of the very services we go to for help, which are actively assisting these concerns – in clear breach of many of the obligations we as individuals are all held accountable – but not the system.

    I will summarize several points from the UNCROC Articles separately to demonstrate direct breaches within the current system.

  49. Down Under says:

    The one and only person, as far as I am aware, who has gone head on with the Human Rights Commission in this matter is Ben Easton (Wellington Busker and Cuba Mall concrete smasher) He spent 12 months maybe 2 years meeting them on several occasions to no avail. I think it is fair to say that the commission’s tactic was to continually argue, evade and generally avoid any resolution. The purpose of this as far as I could see was twofold firstly to maintain a position where all means within a country had not been exhausted therefore there was no valid challenge to be taken to the United Nations and secondly to avoid the obvious conflict that would be raised between them and the judiciary for allowing the abuse of Human Rights in a secret court. It is a substantial wall of bureaucracy that has its own interests at heart.

  50. Gwahir says:

    Down Under = I wonder have you ever experienced Ben’s diatribes, or waded through one of his interminable submissions or dissitations, then you may know why he never suceeded. Ben’t heart is in the right place! his metodology alienates him from people!

    He has bought so many vexacious and frivilous matters to court he is among the very small number of people who must seek leave of the court before placing any matter before them. I have met him!

  51. Down Under says:

    I am talking a decade or more ago and to be fair although we are talking about the same person, I doubt you and I met the same person. This was something we discussed at length. I went to Wellington with him and sat in on one of the latter meetings – it wasn’t hard to work out what they were up to.

  52. Hans Laven says:

    Unfortunately, while Mr Easton attempted some brave challenges through Courts as a back-yard lawyer he was often verbose, unintelligible and legally naive. I am aware that for some brief periods he was able to remain sober and mentally stable when his functioning improved. Generally, he went off on his own bat with little ability to cooperate or to take advantage of others’ efforts, experience and wisdom. Further, his own honesty and interpersonal ethics left a lot to be desired. Mostly, his actions have brought the NZ men’s movement into disrepute and encouraged Courts and Commissions to feel justified in treating all MRAs as extremists to be easily dismissed.

  53. Down Under says:

    Like I said Hans, I am not aware of anyone else who made as much of an effort to tackle the Human Rights Commission. The fact he did it almost alone was because he gave up the comfortable lifestyle that most cling to and he made the time. Not succeeding was inevitable but at least he tried. Likewise landing himself with some jail time in protest only to be released when he went on a hunger strike may not have won front-page news but at least he was committed to the principle. Maybe he is not your favourite person but at least he didn’t give up and kill himself and perhaps one day if any of Ben’s children read this at least they will know that he didn’t stop caring about them.

  54. Gwahir says:

    Hans is about right, a decade ago Ben was an asset and arguably the pioneer of self-representation. I am also aware of some instances where his intervention quite possibly cost his client dearly. In one instance bringing the chief family court judge himself to preside! Ben’s client lost.

    At this point Ben appeared to reinvent himself as the “Political Busker”. That ended with his attempt to dig up Manners Street. He then joined the “Occupy” movement as their press agent but had lost so much credibility as he could even be credited as aiding it’s downfall. Certainly the “System” did not like his methods.

    I have read “It is rare that those who go first receive the rewards” This could well become true of Ben.

  55. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Mostly, his actions have brought the NZ men’s movement into disrepute and encouraged Courts and Commissions to feel justified in treating all MRAs as extremists to be easily dismissed.

    Hans, Totally agree.

  56. JohnPotter says:

    Ben is best known for costing the Wellington ratepayers over $350,000 in unnecessary legal fees.

    The Dominion Post published this: Editorial: Costly war against Wellington ratepayers a couple of months ago. They write:

    The threshold for denying anyone access to the legal system is properly set high. Courthouse doors should not be closed without good reason. But there are limits.

    I have to agree with this; I don’t think Ben has done himself, or the various causes he supports, any favors at all.

    I think any of us who get involved in organising public demonstrations need to be aware of the danger that just one person, perhaps with mental health and/or substance abuse issues, might step across the line which most people would consider legitimate protest.

    If anyone acts deranged, they will attract the media attention, as Ben discovered and exploited. Opponents can then avoid any engagement by saying: “see, they’re all nutters”.

    This is why I have never supported protests outside the homes of Family Court officials; the consequences of events spiraling suddenly out of control are just not worth the risk.

  57. Down Under says:

    Scrap – what an absolute load of codswallop. The entire ‘men’s movement’ draws its collective image from the behaviour of Ben Easton. Give me a break; you really have got yourself in a self-imposed fish-bowl if you believe the outcome would have been any different if Ben had never been born – let along attribute failure to his existence – talk about fall off your horse and blame gravity.

  58. Down Under says:

    @ JP, yes I agree with you there, that is probably one of the things Ben is best known for, and the last time he contacted me (before that) I told him to stop it and get on with his life, not that I thought he would listen and he obviously didn’t but if you can show empathy for men who experience femi-nazi injustice and commit suicide but not for men who live through it and fight back that’s about as callous as burning poppies in public because some of our returned-servicemen came back with problems they didn’t have when they went to war.

  59. JohnPotter says:

    You’re right Down Under, we need all to remember that Ben is a victim, and that derogatory comments about him in this forum are inappropriate. I remember being impressed that his elderly mum and dad turned up at a couple of Family Court protests to support him. He deserves a bit of compassion. Glad I don’t pay rates in Welly though!

    I think you are being too harsh with Scrap though, the feminists are busy constructing an international coalition of “Father’s Right’s Groups” which is supposedly threatening their success, so they will be looking out for (and perhaps even supporting) men who look like dangerous extremists.

  60. Down Under says:

    I don’t know about you JP but so often when guys came for help I would look at them and something didn’t seem quite right – it was in their eyes. At the time it was a mystery to me but now I think many of them were suffering from PTSD. I think we have seriously underestimated the individual affects and ensuing consequences.

  61. JohnPotter says:

    I have no doubt that many of the separated fathers we try to support are mentally unwell as a result of the abuse they have received at the hands of their ex/Women’s Refuge/Family Court/IRD/supervised access centre/CYF and the rest of the feminist gang.

    Not just the way they look, but the difficulty they have in getting to grips with reality. I can remember a number of individuals who had been running successful businesses before their split who were subsequently barely functioning.

    Some get pushed right over the edge, as we know.

    Remember there’s nothing ‘post’ about this traumatic stress – it’s ongoing and unremitting. At random intervals there may be intensified assaults. It’s sure not good for a man; I’m convinced of that.

    And I’m not so sure it’s a disorder either, I suggest it may often be a normal response to being treated inhumanely.

    It would be interesting to know how much domestic violence occurs AFTER the authorities have intervened to supposedly “protect the woman and children”.

  62. hornet says:

    John, you are right there – its the constant provocation which really gets the better of most of us – the incessant baiting and needling – this tactic -a best practice – currently employed in the family court – which deliberately tries to PROVOKE a reaction. And obviously most dads do react to it.

    The attempts to destroy a MANS reputation is also a significant concern – something I do not see many actually understanding how damaging that is to a father. Any person in the most basic state of existence – only has his or her reputation to trade on. So to attempt to destroy it is a significant action which seems to also be BEST PRACTICE within family court procedure. In fact its the first step of the process. And it catches most DADS out, because its the last thing they expect to happen – especially when they were a good father before separation – then out of the blue they are portrayed as this horrible human being – that destroys most dads.

    (Keep poking a dog with a stick and eventually when he gets you alone and out of the cage – he is going to remember and BITE you BAD). The degree of provocation and attacks on your reputation would get a reaction from ANYONE.

    I don’t think any person – can be expected to have that much self control that they don’t eventually react. In fact when you have a system which REFUSES to help dads – even when they have done EVERYTHING right by the system – conformed with all the requests, even those who have NOT had any history of concerns which might be interpreted to conclude they are violent, abusive, a risk to there kids – you are still not assisted by the system. So if they have no help from the social services we all grow up expecting to be there in our hour of need, what do they do – they take the law into there own hands.

    I have asked this question – is the reaction to the provocation – a reaction because the system will not help stop the harm DADS see some of these mothers are causing their child? Dads are hard wired to protect their family -and yet we have a current ” CARE OF CHILDREN – FAMILY COURT System which allows harm to be leveled at a child by way of Alienation and bad Behavior by mothers with NO Consequence – by MOTHERS – the ones who kill more of there own kids – a statistical fact, the ones who can be vitriolic, nastier than any man could ever be, vindictive etc – and yet we NEVER hear this side of the argument.

    So yes John you are right , most men, especially those who LOSE everything – there job, income, savings = most goes to Family court thieves , there home, any assets are taken to pay child support – thats a new low for Child support services – they lose access to there children – this one hits really hard – I have had a mate liken it to suffering a death – and all this especially effects those Fathers – who are unable to ever get a normal relationship again with a woman – there are Great woman out there by the way – are clearly affected for the rest of there lives. they become a shell of there former self. Cast into a wasteland where NO one gives a FK. I do not know the story of BEN, but I can imagine what he went through, and how he declined gradually over time. The system constantly beating you down – thats what it does to any person subjected to it – and thats why it wins – it grinds you down. To take away a mans reputation and deprive him of his children – is to suck out his sole.

    As I have highlighted here – the system gets away with it, because it is UNACCOUNTABLE at every level. And those managing the system hide behind process.

  63. hornet says:

    Sorry should have been – Suck out your “SOUL” – not his shoe – I think they actually do pull it out through your feet…………

  64. Down Under says:

    JP said:

    Remember there’s nothing ‘post’ about this traumatic stress – it’s ongoing and unremitting. At random intervals there may be intensified assaults. It’s sure not good for a man; I’m convinced of that.

    Perhaps it is both. You have stress post the traumatic event which is one issue and then a new set of circumstances which is in itself a constantly stressful environment. That would be a rather toxic emotional and physical combination.
    You might say it is one thing to experience war and come home again but another all together to be a prisoner of war and tortured.
    Or to look at it another – like living in an occupied territory, it is also an invasion of your life.
    When you stop viewing this as a legal issue and look at it as a human issue it raises a whole different perspective.

  65. shafted says:

    Yep,
    Courtesey of madam i lost my home (she kept it because I did not want to see our kids suffer)my children, my money and nearly my sanity. She and the system brought me to my knees. And when you are at that stage, your most f….d, you have the added joy of having to fight for the right to see your children.
    Previous friends ignored me when i bumped into them at the supermarket and gathered around her to support her through that difficult time. These same “friends” are now beginning to see that all was /is not as stated by madam.
    Hornet, my repuation was important to me. But between her and her man hating lawyers i was cast as an alcoholic wife beating irresponsible tool. None of it was true. The mere allegation of unsuitability required me to prove to the court that i was worthy to look after the children unsupervised. The hilarious thing is that up until our seperation, i was deemed (by her) to be entirely fit to look after the children unattended for extended periods of time.I was deemed fit to look after her friends children also when there was a need. Why did i suddenly become this irresponsible monster overnight?
    As to provocation, it is a weekly occurence for me. Attack after attack. Unreasonable action after unreasonable action. Yet i am supposed to be some sort of Buddhist that merely turns the other cheek and confides my woes to “grasshopper”. It is the malevolent actions of my ex that i would like to see a mechanism to stop. As stated in previous posts, to gain a protection order against me was a matter of fabricating untruths and it was granted ex parte, immediately. When i applied for one with affidavits, emails etc etc a year on i dealt with the matter at mediation. Not a satisfactory outcome.
    I have learned in this horrendous biased vicious system that we are not allowed to react to ANYTHING. To do so affirms madams contentions as to what a monster i am. To show any emotion, or to disagree amounts to BULLYING, BADGERING, CONTROL, ABUSE, and could well be “A BREACH OF THE PROTECTION ORDER (madams words).
    As a side note, i am terrified by Paula Bennet’s recent unveiling of her plans to stop abuse of children. The stopping or attempting to stop abuse is commendable. The mechanism (secret registers, denial of access of parents to children etc) terrifies me. Surely other posters can see the inherant danger to us, from such a system. A cry of “unsuitability” has you hung, drawn and quartered on the registry and little other than an expensive right of redress.

  66. hornet says:

    Destroy a MANS Reputation – you also Destroy his CREDIBILITY – the rest is easy after that –

    This is an age old tactic within the Criminal courts, Government Particularly should anyone dare stand up against it and of course it has entered into the family court circus. The reason it WILL NOT go away is clear – the lawyers control the RULES, the RULES currently allow this process to thrive – Keep Conflict Alive and being allowed to destroy any person ( by attacking there credibility and reputation ) who has an alternative view on why things are so corrupt in the Family Court – they definitely DO NOT WANT anyone with these views getting any traction.

    You see once you have NO Credibility = its easier for the aggressor to WIN.

    if you want to get away with things – its easy if the person making allegations is portrayed as a nut case, someone with mental abuse or any other issue which will cause people to DISTANCE themselves from that person.

    This is clear in the REACTIONS poster here towards how BEN is now perceived.

    That is why when I read the PAIN in SHAFTED’s notes above – we must all band together as ONE – and demonstrate we are not some “individual” who can be manipulated and portrayed as a nut case – the facts are REAL, the CONCERNS are REAL, the Discrimination is REAL, the HARM being allowed to be pushed onto Children is REAL.

    Thats the BATTLE which has to be overcome – otherwise – each time one of us rises up and puts his head over the parapet – it will be cut off by the very system which does not want the TRUTH to come out.

    I have battled for ten years in the family court and child support decisions – to let the TRUTH dictate the decisions – this is NOT the CASE in the FAMILY COURT. In fact FAMILY court is WORSE than the criminal system – because at least in the criminal system – you have to PROVE EVIDENCE. FAMILY COURT – NOT SO. ONE persons evidence is taken as FACT – with NO PROOF, and anyone who opposes this is destroyed by the process I have described above. So no need for FACTS or TRUTHS, and the acceptable practice of being allowed to destroy any person ( usually FATHERS ) who try to expose the TRUTH.

    It is this behavior which MENS groups need to focus on – and expose and fight to prevent it.

    Legislation needs to change – for starters making it an OFFENCE in FAMILY COURT to LIE – to cast FALSE ACCUSATIONS with punishments which are enforced.

    Secondly there needs to be legislation against lawyers and parents – who use any child in breach of the current Human Rights act provisions I have talked about – the requirements are there – but there is NO Legislation protecting parents from those in the current system who allow this to happen – because its good for business and there is currently NO LEGISLATIVE consequence when they do. Lawyers allowing children to be used to leverage property, and access is a widely accepted practice – I have seen this in motion first hand. And they will NOT STOP until the laws are written preventing it.

    Similarly – the Human Rights Commission MUST be allowed to Investigate Allegations of Discrimination within the Family Court and CHild Support Procedures – to keep the system HONEST. So again the legislation needs to CHANGE – currently the system is hiding behind its own deficiencies.

    Hornet

  67. Skeptic says:

    What needs to be understood by many more folks is that for men stripped of fatherhood, humiliated and alienated from their children by the family court process, bereft and often in the aftermath of all of this left financially ruined and mentally tortured life changes.
    They see the world through a completely different paradigm.
    As such they notice the misandry around them that previously went unnoticed.
    They realize the casual lie that “it’s a man’s world” and instead it’s actually the opposite as they recognize men’s disposability.
    In this way SOME come to understand that in the current zeitgiest of feminism supported by chivalric white knights they are being terrorized.
    There are two basic rational responses to living in terror – fight or flight. Or some mix of the two.
    Myself I have found a way to use both responses.
    I fight by educating other men of the dangers of living in feminist culture whilst doing my utmost to distance myself as much as possible from it.
    I have plans to return to NZ one day whereupon I aim to continue being a right royal thorn in feminism’s side. Time away from NZ in more normal, as in male respecting culture and maturing has strengthened me considerably.
    I recommend the same for any man who feels they are being pushed over the edge by feminism in NZ.
    The air out here is breathable.

    For more on the concept of disposability here’s a wonderfully astute woman who get’s it –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA

  68. marq sarchett says:

    ten years this has been going on seperation from my children wasn’t enough access was made so hard then courts granted me an uplift order but due to bayliffs not being able to find my ex partner and children in time for the court case the removal order was never followed through with i excepted all the courts desissions ie visitation holidays etc an order was made that the mother was to remain in canterbury this worked fine for some time then it started over the years several moves happened as the courts just carried on in the best interest of the child now ten years later my childrens mother has moved 8 times and my kids have attended 5 different schools STABLE I THINK NOT christmas two days after talking to kids about there visit i get text saying we never want to see you again and any xmas pressents i have give to salvation army this broke my heatrt now in order to move again more faulse allagations have bn made so now on the 23rd may i am going to the greymouth hearing to say i surrender and i will not say good bye to my kids but tell them im there when they want to come and see me any questions or feed back please

  69. Had_Enough says:

    Hi Marg, your story is very similar to my own. I had a warrant from the Court to uplift my children at one stage but the idiot judge wasn’t capable of correctly interpreting times and dates so never authorised it in time. The mother succeeded in defying all Parenting orders ever since and ended up taking the kids to Canada and the Court allowed this. You are doing the right thing by letting go, heartbreaking though it is. I believe there is a special place in hell reserved for parents who deny the other parent access to their children and karma will catch up with her in the end. I am sure the children will reach out to you eventually and see your side of things. Good luck!

  70. shafted says:

    Marq-court orders or not, the issue that you are really contending with is an unreasonable ex. I too share your plight.
    Mine moved 2.5 hours away with her new husband, and the agreement was we would meet half way between Auckland and there to hand over kids. Then ensued various strategies on her part. Kids were too busy, or if she did drive, she did half hour, i did two, returned to spend day in Auckland with them, and then fully dropped them home (same day) and then returned to Auckland (nearly 10 hours driving in a day). Now the kids are nearly 21 and 17. My son does not talk to me, and my daughter thinks “(My name “is a c….t) For the life of me i can’t understand what i have done. Yes, i had the boy live with my new partner and i for a year in Auckland to get him back into school after a year trying a building apprenticeship. I had zero tolerance for his use of marijuana as it was messing with his head and beyond occasional use. I showed him love and set boundaries and gave him a fair bit of freedom too (i am no prude) but he returned to mum’s house because there is a cruiseier and more “chilled) (i hate that word) way of life that involves doing nothing and living off child support plus her and her husband’s not insubstantial incomes. Everyone used to say to me “they will come back to you ” etc etc, but i fear that real life does not always have such happy endings. I have been marginalized in their up bringing, and am seen as an object of contempt. YOu will get all sorts of advice-hell-i have given it in this forum, but i am now at the point that for my own sanity i need to retreat and get on with my life. Like you, i can’t take the rejection and the malice any more. My arms will be open if they ever want to see me again, but it will be on reasonable terms-not just their terms. I will not be a walking ATM. I will not send any more gifts to remain unacknowledged. I will send birthday cards. I will not allow them to disrespect me or my partner and her children, and i DO expect them to be thoughtful of others. It’s not too much to ask, but it has taken me years and years to work that one out. Be there in need, love them, and build your life. THe situation is part of your life, but foes not define it.Good luck.

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