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Sun 20th May 2012

Ministry of Health Suicide Report Neglects Men

Filed under: Gender Politics,Men's Health — Ministry of Men's Affairs @ 10:37 am

FYI, here is my letter to the Minister of Health concerning his ministry’s latest report on suicide, due for public release on 24 May no doubt with Peter Dunne crowing about the achievement. It’s a serious indictment on the NZ government concerning its prioritization of women and neglect of men even in this area that harms mainly men.

MMA
MINISTRY OF MEN’S AFFAIRS
MINITATANGA MO NGA TANE

PO Box 13130
Tauranga 3141
Phone (07)5712435 or (0274)799745
mmainnz@gmail.com

19 May 2012

Hon Tony Ryall
Minister of Health
Parliament Buildings
Private Bag 18041
Wellington 6160

Dear Minister

Re: Ministry of Health Publication “Suicide Facts: Deaths and intentional self-harm hospitalisations 2009′ and accompanying “Communication Notes for Release”¦’

We believe men should be seriously disturbed by the amount of obfuscation in both documents of the extent to which suicide is primarily a male health issue in NZ.

Although the main publication “Suicide Facts”¦’ states the basic fact that almost 4 times as many men as women were recorded as committing suicide in 2009, it does not go on to give this statistic the attention or priority it deserves. Instead, it seems deliberately to lose this statistic in a morass of other figures and inconsistent methods of comparison, and to portray suicide as an issue of equal or greater concern for groups other than men.

Inconsistent Statistics and Comparisons

Throughout both documents statistics are reported in ways that make it difficult to see that the difference between male and female suicide rates is several orders greater than differences between any of the other groups measured.

In the “Suicide Facts”¦’ document the male:female suicide ratio is mentioned a few times as 3.6:1 but none of the other suicide comparisons are provided in that ratio format, meaning that a reader is not made aware that the gender ratio is much higher than ratios between any other groups.

The “Suicide Facts”¦’ document went on to report (e.g.):

“”¦the male youth suicide rate was more than four times higher than the comparable female rate” (page 7)

“”¦suicide accounted for almost one-third of all deaths in males aged 15-19, 20-24 and 30-34.” (page 9)

“More than one-fifth of all deaths of females aged 10-14 and 25-29 were due to suicide.” (page 9)

“”¦there was a significant difference between male and female rates in all five-year age groups from 15 to 59 years, with the exception of those aged 25-29.” (page 10)

“”¦suicide death rate for Maori”¦was 23 percent higher than for non-Maori”¦” (page 19)

“”¦suicide for Maori males was 19.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 2009, compared with 17.3 for non-Maori males.” (page 19)

“Maori females showed a higher rate of suicide than non-Maori females in 2009″¦” (page 19)

“”¦the suicide rate for the most deprived areas was almost 90 percent higher than it was for the least deprived areas.” (page 24)

“”¦five DHB areas”¦had significantly higher average suicide rates than the total New Zealand rate” (page 26)

This mish-mash of methods for comparing the various groups served to hide the most significant finding that men as a group are by far at highest risk of suicide. For example, the Maori rate is said to be 23% higher than the non-Maori rate but using the same method of comparison the male rate is 360% higher than the female rate, yet this high figure is avoided. Similarly, the Maori:non-Maori ratio would be only 1.2:1 but that form of comparison is avoided because it would look so trivial alongside the male:female ratio.

The Ministry of Men’s Affairs believes these inconsistent methods of comparison represented an intentional ploy on the part of the Ministry of Health to convey the idea that women, Maori, high deprivation populations etc have at least as much need of attention regarding suicide prevention as do men.

The “Communication Notes’ carry this ploy to even greater depths of misrepresentation. The document completely fails to mention the 3.6:1 ratio, i.e. that suicide kills males almost 4 times as much as it does females, yet does see fit to repeat the 1.7:1 ratio for female to male self-harm hospitalisations! The document simply states “There continues to be a distinct gender difference in suicide and self-harm rates”¦” as though the two measures are somehow of equal significance.

Intentional Self-Harm

The inclusion of “Intentional self-harm hospitalisations’ is another major source of obfuscation. “Suicide Facts”¦’ states in its Preface and elsewhere:

“It is important to recognize that the motivation for intentional self-harm varies, and therefore hospitalisation data for self-harm is not a measure of suicide attempts.”

Any clinician who deals with suicide will know this, and that the higher rates of self-harm incidents among women will largely be due to the predominance of women with Borderline Personality Disorder and other conditions and fashions that involve self-cutting or manipulative self-harm threats and gestures. Given the fact that self-harm incidents are not a measure of suicide attempts and that their relationship to suicide is unclear, why include this at all in a document called “Suicide Facts’? The Ministry of Men’s Affairs believes this inclusion was a deliberate strategy designed to detract from the truth about suicide by adding a loosely related measure known to show females as predominantly the victims, thereby implying that women are as deserving as men of intervention resources regarding suicide.

The “Communication Notes for Release’ highlights the self-harm figures but fails to include any warning against viewing them as a measure of suicide attempts. This omission in a document provided to guide health professionals and others in communicating with the broader public suggests that the Ministry of Health wants the public to be misled.

Other Methods of Avoiding the Truth about Suicide

In the “Communication Notes’ document each mention of a higher rate for males is immediately followed with some statement suggesting female rates were somehow comparable. Further, the document states “Deprivation is a significant factor in suicide”¦” but nowhere refers to male gender as a “significant factor’, much less that being male is by far more significant than any of the other factors. Nowhere in the document is there any suggestion that any priority need be given to men when thinking about suicide. The document refers to the “youth suicide rate’ as being too high and states that the government will continue to support relevant services for youth, (when in fact the rate of suicides for under 20s is actually lower than the average for older age groups) but nothing at all is said about male suicide per se or the need for male-targeted interventions.

NZ Suicide Prevention Strategy

This strategy is another initiative by the Ministry of Health, intended to be in place until 2016. As made clear in the attached essay (below), the NZ Suicide Prevention Strategy follows the same pattern of denial and neglect towards men, incredibly claiming that suicide is not a gender issue and steadfastly refusing to acknowledge that males deserve to be prioritised in any way when it comes to suicide prevention.

Taken together, these responses to suicide stand as a grave indictment on the NZ government concerning its disregard for men’s welfare.

Conclusions

The Ministry of Men’s Affairs accuses the Ministry of Health and the New Zealand government of neglecting the most significant victims of suicide and deplores this form of discrimination against men. Because of such neglect little research has been undertaken to understand why men specifically are killing themselves in such large numbers in NZ and little male-appropriate help has been provided to reduce men’s suicidality.

The NZ government’s approach to suicide can be contrasted with its approach to partner violence. A similar gender ratio to that for suicides pertains to both homicides and serious injuries caused by heterosexual intimate partners, but in the opposite gender direction. Yet the NZ government treats partner violence as a problem almost exclusively harming women and its responses are based on that formulation. Through several institutions it funds the White Ribbon Campaign urging the population to be against violence towards women as though violence towards men is not worthy of concern, while laws, reports and public statements overwhelmingly focus on partner violence as a problem harming women. However, when it comes to a problem harming men more than women, the NZ government seeks to avoid any priority or special focus at all on the main victims. This is blatant sexism.

The Ministry of Men’s Affairs urges the Ministry of Health and the NZ government to stop discriminating against men in its responses to the problem of suicide.

The Ministry of Men’s Affairs is a community initiative that unfortunately is necessary because successive NZ governments including yours have failed to represent men and instead practise and promote misandry, exploitation, denigration and neglect of men.

Yours faithfully

Hans Laven
Chief Executive

Copies to:
Hon Peter Dunne, Associate Minister of Health
Media
Maryan Street MP, Labour Spokesperson on Health
Kevin Hague MP, Greens Spokesperson on Health
Barbara Stewart MP, NZ First Spokesperson on Health
Tariana Turia MP, Maori Party Spokesperson on Health
Hone Harawira MP, Mana Party

Attachment 1:
http://menz.org.nz/2010/men-devalued-in-suicide-strategy/

107 Responses to “Ministry of Health Suicide Report Neglects Men”

  1. Kelvin Dunn says:

    While I haven’t read the paper referred to I have no doubt that Hans has ‘hit the nail on the head’ in his cogent and well reasoned riposte! Well done Hans. It is this type of unemotional, sensible and reasoned discourse that adds to the cause.

  2. nickcoop says:

    The Ministry of Health hasn’t seen it’s role as improving the health of New Zealanders for a long time. Instead they have promoted the vested interests of various occupational groups. Their agenda has been anti-science, anti-doctor, and anti-male. For instance none of their publications in Primary Health Care are about GP’s even though they are the key provider.

  3. Gwaihir says:

    Well done Hans. It has been my impression over many years that when a man chooses to self harm it is typically violent and terminal! (Pick up your shotgun and blow your brains out!) This factor accounts for lower hospital admissions – Men succeed and its straight to the morgue! Men rarely send clear cut warning signs. One close experience, Partner leaving he went into the bedroom and blew his brains out. Second close, partner absconded with children. Tried illegal drugs, though ended up hanging himself in a tree outside a mental health unit that offered no after hours care! – That last one compounded by hounding from IRD for child support. Hans Names etc available off group.

  4. Down Under says:

    If you consider this as an excessive rate of decline of males in a population and add to that the number of males that deliberately vacate New Zealand and also take into account the increasing numbers of deaths and the decreasing number of live births (which as I understand it) is now a negative influence on the population, surely that must be recognised as a significant and serious issue. It is unfortunate that the 2011 census was cancelled as a result of the Christchurch earthquake, and we cannot easily see the current picture, however I think it is a fair assumption that the rate of decline would be increasing rather than remaining static. It is one thing to ignore such information as male suicide statistics and another to choose not to attend to the matter, but it has to be recognised that the points Hans raises are generated by a long term pattern of behaviour that has existed now for decades rather than years. It has been and still is a social conspiracy against men. The end result is no different, in effect; to an ethnic cleansing, excepting that it is one achieved by misinformation and social administration rather than a military action. There seems to be an illusion in this country that this manner of behaviour makes the outcome acceptable and deniable. This would be a threat to any society and it is a particularly toxic for this country and its future wellbeing.

  5. MurrayBacon says:

    To paraphrase Down Under – the enemy within! Unfortunately, we are own own worst enemies, as a country and also as men. It seems our politicians will only act, when a large group of people insist that men driven to suicide is an issue well worth acting on. Our “judges” claim, we are only doing our job, as set out by Parliament. As far as I can see, in most cases they have been judicial activists, and Parliament follows up with legislation to make their antics legal, years afterwards.

    We read about fathers who have lost all hope of a fulfilling family life and kill themselves without mercy. Fathers are the largest single group damaged and destroyed by thievery, incompetence and carelessness in familycaught$, after losing access to their children. Caught by surprise, the caught they hoped would be a fair umpire, led the charge to destroy their role as father. These secret injections of hopelessness kill 100, or 200 or 300 men a year.

    In their wake, children left behind have a much higher suicide rate. But a few years after, it isn’t so clear what the cause was. Mothers and fathers whose children have been taken by CYFs have an intolerably high suicide rate too.

    It is easy to be casual (or callous?) when we read about it in the newspaper, but when a friend tells me about the suicide of his daughter, after 6 years of contact denied by repeated sex abuse allegations and then 18 months of building up access, then the pain cuts close to home.

    The common factor in these improper deaths, is our own familycaught$.

    Some say “Kill it before it kills you!”. This might sound like a joke, but each year thousands of children watch their parents (mainly fathers) burned away to dust, a thousand parents cannot understand how their generally happy son or daughter gave himself no chance to be alive, using car exhaust, car accident or rope or gun…

    I do not intend to tolerate the manslaughtering thieves among us, who in secret pillage families, just for money they don’t want to work for.

    There are much better alternatives to the present familycaught$, to the point that anything would be better than what we have at present.
    MurrayBacon

  6. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Down Under#4

    ‘number of males that deliberately vacate New Zealand ‘ You are spot on with your comment there Down Under…With no disrespect to you, Its a lot more then you could ever realize….

    ‘But its not only highly intelligent decent Kiwi males that now permanently abode here in this Asia country Down Under….

    My Asian lady partner and myself are personally meeting each week, more and more good,decent highly intelligent and highly skilled western European men that are permanently settling here,who have fled from there corrupt western feminist European society ….

    Kind regards… John Dutchie….Free at long last…..

  7. Tania says:

    Oh my goodness Hans, ah-mazing! What a thought provoking, well-written and insightful read. I’m so pleased to see that someone has taken the time to highlight the significant (and seemingly intentional) short-fallings of this document. Well done indeed. Now let’s cross out fingers that someone takes both the notice and the action that men so clearly deserve in this arena, or better yet let’s make damn sure they do. Presumably any responses will be posted here? I look forward to seeing them and if there are futher steps that can be taken thereafter.

  8. Down Under says:

    @Tania – The human nature of life that you are familiar with is not the nature of the administration we have inherited from the ideology of radical feminists and their pursuits. In other words stop dreaming – if it was that easy it would have been fixed by now.

  9. Ford says:

    i hope you lot arnt using this site as a chatroom

  10. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to all

    Lets see how long when this type of western European women feminists ‘justice’ will be introduced in NZ….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeWfS3-Jzkw&feature=relmfu

    And then the beloved politicians of western in European society/governments shed there ‘salt water crocodiles’ tears and proclaim male suicide isn’t really a issue to be concerned about..

    Kind regards.. John Dutchie…. Free at long last

  11. Ford says:

    thats females for you ay john?

  12. Tania says:

    @Down Under – I understand that you’ve been beaten down by the system, probably time and time again… but please don’t quash my optimism (however ill-conceived it may be)! Let’s make the most of it while it lasts as I’m sure I’ll eventually be worn down too. But for now I’m allowed to hope (I’d rather not call it ‘dreaming’).

    I realise these people in power are useless and hence my comment “better yet let’s make damn sure they do” because as we both are aware they won’t take any action without having to be pushed damn hard…. so let’s do it!

  13. Ford says:

    a mens movement to try and change the family court rules etc and it wont happen till they get some women on side and get their backing so women will still have the final say

  14. Ford says:

    #13,,p.s..its like making a pact with the devil

  15. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Ford #11

    All what I can say Ford,thank goodness I now abode in this Asian country…I know this for a fact, that type of situation would never happen here…

    My wonderful Asian lady partner is shaking her head in total dis belief..She as made a very astute comment … ‘what are western European women are going to do, when they realized that all the good and decent western European men have fled the western European feminist society and are now living in Asian countries…’

    Food for thought eh..????…I know what I would do…Rejoice, and throw a big party in celebration for those Guys who have escape the Feminist shackles ….

    Kind regards.. John Dutchie”¦. Free at long last

  16. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Tania#12

    Your comment of ‘I understand that you’ve been beaten down by the system,’ you are sadly mistaken there Tania..

    Its more like this…. ‘I understand that you’ve been beaten down by the …Feminists….. system’

    Kind regards.. John Dutchie”¦. Free at long last

  17. Down Under says:

    @John – Are you suggesting that sort of thing doesn’t yet happen in New Zealand. We have had boys as young as 12 duped into sex, by 18 year old girls, to get the DPB. We have even had the IRD deducting child support from the money a fourteen year old earned from a paper run.

  18. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Down under#17

    What….!!!!!…My jaw is hitting the floor….My Asian lady partner who has just read your post ‘Down under’ is looking at me in such a way ‘Is your country so F****d up’…What can I say to her…But this ‘Yes it truly is’……

    Kind regards.. John Dutchie”¦. Free at long last

  19. Tania says:

    #13, Ford that’s a sad way of looking at it! I understand where you’re coming from (nobody wants to shake hands with the devil) but I think that the women who are on side with the mens movement certainly won’t be the feminist opressors we all disdain so much, but rather good logical woman who are there to support you and all good men.

    So my question is… does it really matter that “women will still have the final say” as you put it, if it is good women who support you, rather than the man-haters? Surely if the outcome is good for men that is the main thing to be focussed on, rather than the fact that some (rare) good women helped along the way? E.g. Felicity A Goodyear-Smith… surely you don’t detest assistance from women such as this if it yeilds a positive result for men?

    #16, Yes John, that’s EXACTLY the system I was talking about. Man it boggles the mind how much these feminists have weaseled their way into the systems that run our country and manipulated them to suit their supremacist female agenda… truly terrifying! This needs to be undone and fast!

  20. Tania says:

    #10 John… WHAT THEY HELL?! I nearly vomitted on my keyboard watching that video. What is wrong with this world? It’s so unbelievably backwards! I sincerely hope that nothing like this ever happens here. That sets a dangerous and disgraceful precedent!

  21. Down Under says:

    @Tania. I refer you to #17, welcome to real world.

  22. Tania says:

    Down Under… sorry I’d missed #17 somehow…. what the hell New Zealand?! Can you send me links to info/articles etc relating to the cases you mentioned? I would be interested to learn more about this happening in our country.

    PS. I really don’t like this ‘real world’ I’m discovering 🙁

  23. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Tania #19 and #20

    On a very serious note here Tania ….Do you honestly think I take great pleasure in posting these types of links …Far from it.!!!..I do not!!!!…Its guts to the core of my soul on what Western European society is becoming

    Your comment ‘their supremacist female agenda”¦’…And that’s why I have asked you with the greatest and sincerest respect to you as ‘Women’ and as a ‘loving mother’ to start net working hard with other fine women and fine mothers that don’t realize on whats really going on with real agenda of Feminism …

    And please remember Tania on what I said before to you on a previous post, if the situation was reversed as in there was so called ‘men’s supremacist liberation movement’ …I would fight tooth and nail for you as a ‘Woman’ and as a ‘loving Mother’ and as a decent human being

    As I sure many other Men at Menz would do the same too….

    Kind regards to you,Tania…John Dutchie…Free at long last

  24. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Tania #22

    PS. I really don’t like this ‘real world’ I’m discovering..Beg to differ Tania

    In my humble opinion its more like this…. PS. I really don’t like this.. feminist ….’real world’ I’m discovering

    Kind regards to you,Tania”¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  25. Gwaihir says:

    @ Tania, post 19. You mention Felicity Goodyear-Smith. Totally agreed. She is associated with this board.

  26. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Gwaihir#25

    Yes Gwaihir ,a excellent comment you have said good sir….and a ‘three big cheers’ to Felicity Goodyear-Smith may she stay strong

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  27. Tania says:

    Amendment to previous post:
    PS. I really don’t like this.. feminist “¦’real world’ I’m discovering

    Spot on John 🙂

    I’m working to get the word out there… starting with regular posts on my Facebook re mens issues. I think the women I am friends with are pretty good women so they should take notice! I’m thinking about maybe starting a blog too.

    Any other suggestions re: getting the word out to other women? I’m open to ideas.

    Thank you all for your kind help and providing of information.

  28. Ford says:

    #19..all ok for a good woman to help men..until she/they decide its not working for them and wants something else instead

  29. Hans Laven says:

    Good on you Tania (#27), go for it. One example: it would be good to be able to add your name to the membership of ‘The Ministry of Men’s Affairs’. (There is at least one man employed at the Ministry of Women’s Affairs so why not have female members of the MMA?). You could email me privately on hans@xnet.co.nz if you are interested.

  30. Tania says:

    Thank you Hans, I have emailed you just now regarding this and another matter.

  31. Tania says:

    http://www.massey.ac.nz/~wwcppe/papers/cppeip12/cppeip12.pdf
    Anyone read this? Good reading (though I’m not at the end yet… but it is so far)

  32. Gwaihir says:

    Stuart is one of ours Tania.

  33. JohnPotter says:

    #19 Felicity Goodyear-Smith is married to me, your humble webmaster. Her support over many years is the reason this site still exists.

    #28 Ford, I see my job is to make sure our relationship does work for both of us. We actually didn’t sign up to “till death do us part”, but so far we’ve lasted 25 years, and I’m looking forward to many more good years.

  34. Ford says:

    congrats john potter

  35. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Hans#29

    Your comment Hans…’it would be good to be able to add your name to the membership of ‘The Ministry of Men’s Affairs’

    …An excellent suggestion Hans,well done good sir…And a very warm congratulation to you Tania

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  36. Train Driver says:

    Good on you Hans, great to see that to have written to Tony Ryall and very well written.

    Men have always suffered at the hands of the Government and never get any recognition, especially through the Family Courts and on health matters.

    The Government always pamper to the Mothers and Women at the expense of Men and Fathers.

    Men in New Zealand have a shorter life span than Women and Men die from cancers (prostate cancer), heart attacks, strokes and stress from Family Courts while Women enjoy free check-ups and treatment for cervical cancer, breast cancer plus legal aid for Family Courts and knowing the Judge will rule in their favor before proceedings even start.

    There is a hospital for Women called The National Womens at Greenlane in Auckland and a Ministry Of Women’s Affairs.

    What do Men have? NOTHING

  37. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Train Driver

    And I thought I was only one blunt and forthright to post on Menz…

    Yep ,you got in one ‘Train driver’ …’Nothing’…Except of course been …villain fry…Demonized … criminalized…

    But I now live and work in a ‘civilized’ Asian country where Manhood and Fatherhood is still honored …respected… cherished…and Loved…Not like this Feminist cesspit called New Zealand…..

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  38. Train Driver says:

    And this is another reason why Fathers Commit suicide,

    Please watch this as it relates to New Zealand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqtdwMjgGF8&feature=fvwrel

  39. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Train Driver #38

    That was a very truthful, powerful,hard hitting viewing Train Driver …If every decent intelligent young western European man were all made to watch that you tube movie…Marriage/ cohabiting and becoming a Father to a western European woman would be ‘kaput’….

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  40. Down Under says:

    @Train Driver – Interesting comments below the video also.

  41. Tania says:

    That video was heart-breaking.

    Though I did smile at this comment: I don’t mind paying childsupport because it for my kids, I just to like the way the system treats us like if we are guilty of murder. I KNOW I STABBED HER SEVERAL TIMES BUT IT WAS WITH MY PENIS. Lol 🙂

  42. dan says:

    There have been a couple of letters to the sunday herald about their article a couple of weeks ago on child support suicide. Mostly sympathetic but one predictable get off your deadbeat arse letter too. I wrote in but it’s hard not to get worked up and there is a LOT that needs to be said.
    Question – does anyone have any idea how many suicides and murders have been caused by child support, either per year or in total? It would really help when agitating on this topic to be able to quote figures, even if they are a bit wooly. The topic is going off the boil and a few choice letters to that paper may help keep the spotlight on.

  43. Ford says:

    #42..most of the stats i can find are U.S
    but look at this
    http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/ChildSupport.htm?article_id=71

  44. Hans Laven says:

    So where are things up to with the “Suicide Facts” document? I received a response from Peter Dunne’s office saying he had asked the Ministry of Health to investigate and respond to my concerns. I note that the Ministry of Health has not released the document on its website as intended on 24 May or announced any release. This may indicate that the government is taking the concerns somewhat seriously.

    On the scheduled release date of 24 May there was plenty of competing news to occupy the minds of our journalists. The NZ Budget was released, the NZ dollar hit a 6-month low, Tama Iti and one of his comrades were sentenced, the recent death of a mother and baby due to childbirth complications continued to get headlines, Nicolette Vaux-Phillips, a woman who was complicit in the murder of a teenage boy was given a pussy pass (oh well, good riddance to yet another male…), and the world focused on Michelle Corby whose sentence had been reduced in Indonesia (while hundreds of thousands of men are totally ignored by media as they suffer in Western prisons after false allegations, unmanageable child support debt, showing their love for their children in breach of unjustified protection orders, and sexist laws that punish men much more than women for the same actions).

    Nevertheless, I distributed the Ministry of Men’s Affairs letter widely among media. It is difficult to understand why NOT A SINGLE JOURNALIST has enough decency to expose this scandalous neglect of men in our taxpayer-funded responses to a suicide problem that kills more men than the road toll. What on earth could be the reason for our journalists’ frequent refusal to give attention to the men’s movement or to issues concerning men in particular?

  45. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Dan #42, IRD CS will have fairly accurate figures, if they bother to record them. As this issue might be seen as being critical of their performance, then it is possible that staff are instructed to not record suicides. In terms of professional liability, to turn a blind eye in the longer run only allows the situation to become worse. Thus when accountability finally strikes, turning a blind eye will only make the management much more culpable. We have a long way to go before this happens. Also remember that IRD CS staff suicide is a significant problem too, though the absolute numbers are much lower. This would be a serious health and safety issue, if it was taken seriously. As taxpayers always pickup the final tab, we should be taking all of these issues seriously now.

    Roughly, about 300 middle aged men take their own lives each year, according to official records.

    Take away about 50 for the background suicide rate before the familycaught$ sharpened it’s blades in 1977/1980.

    I have ignored that psychiatric drugs and psychotherapy treatments are much more effective and lower risk today, than 30 years ago. Positive support for family, neighbours and community is much higher now than 30 years ago. So maybe we should add back in a further 25 suicides, as the background rate was trending down? I won’t do this here, to be on the “safe” side!

    Maybe we should remove 100 for general social and economic pressures, related to a more harshly competitive society.

    This leaves about 150 men’s suicides per year related to “family and law” issues.

    Divide the about 150 men’s suicides remaining, as follows:
    My guess, from listening to men’s complaints through the last decade, is:

    loss of access to children, temporary or permanent – 75
    child [and ex-spouse] support—————————- 50
    loss of spouse————————————————- 25

    The wildcard, is that official statistics record deaths that were clearly intended to cause self death. I believe that NZ’s figures are generally more accurate that in most countries around the world. This is one reason why we show up so badly in international comparisons.

    Thus a lot of deaths that were probably suicide, were recorded as car accidents, alcohol poisoning, fights. Considering these issues, you could probably double my estimates above. As these categories of death are being actively managed downwards, the fraction that are actually suicide is beginning to stick out like a sore thumb and with luck, this will lead to pressure to address the social and family lay issues that lead so many men to select immediate death over living.

    Please don’t forget mother’s suicides and loss into mental illness, after familycaught$ daily operations. These are impossible to see in official statistics, but my guess is about 25 and 1000 per year.

    There are additional losses of fathers from their children and NZ society. Men who descend into mental illness, or who depart NZ in search of a sane world. For these children, the loss is little less severe than a loss by suicide.

    Children’s suicides related to familycaught$ operations, my guess is about 25 a year.
    http://archive.org/details/SubmissionRegardingNzDomesticViolenceAct

    I would kill, to stop these wrongfull losses, MurrayBacon – axe murderer.
    (But constructive protests is a good place to start!)

  46. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to MurrayBacon#45

    Your comment MurrayBacon…BANG…You are right on the money there MurrayBacon ‘or who depart NZ in search of a sane world.’

    There are ‘thousands’ of Alienated western European separated/divorced Fathers living and working in this Asian country whom have basically fled here to keep there ‘sanity’ and sorry if I sound harsh here ,after my, and what I had witness as in what happen to two my best friends, and my ex brother in law experiences
    with the family court and N.Z justice system … I can understand why Fathers sometimes have to flee ..

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  47. Bruce S says:

    Hans (#44); “What on earth could be the reason for our journalists’ frequent refusal to give attention to the men’s movement or to issues concerning men in particular?”

    Just journalists Hans? Seems the entire state machinery has adopted a case of selective hearing through a set of finely tuned filters! Possibly orchestrated through certain “pet” organizations with agendas’ and propaganda parallel to those of the SS and Gestapo. You know, the ones that managed to obliterate 6 million Jews and not an eye was blinked! As callous as it sounds; the cynic in me can’t help but think that many men are happier “gassing themselves” in preference to having to endure the ongoing persecution of all things male. And the darker side of me suggests that the state and it’s “pets” really don’t give a damn.

  48. Ford says:

    #47..alot of those journalists are female and the male journos have wives

  49. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Ford #48

    Right on the money there Ford there are plenty of prominent feminists journalists in all sectors of the media…

    Look what happen to Alistair Thompson and Andy Hadden when they expressed an ‘opinion’ that the Kiwi women Feminists in the media didn’t like…

    Both got hammered, then slaughtered and quartered..There careers were destroyed because they didn’t bow down and submit to the feminists ideology..

    ‘male journos have wives’…Yeah, and we both know Ford whats happens if we stand our ground and say ‘No, that’s pure feminist spin doctored bullshit’ …

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  50. Ford says:

    #49..and if any male in the media workplace spoke out or against their female co-workers they could very well face false accusations of workplace abuse

  51. golfa says:

    #44 Hans, there is something very odd about that article. Seems she’s admitted guilt to being an accessory to a crime where the accused hasn’t even faced a Trial ….. She’s either a very smart or very stupid gambler.

  52. Gwaihir says:

    Dan #42
    I don’t believe any specific statistics are kept beyond the Death certificate male & Female. Male deaths are swept under the carpet with other groups and are vague. The only thing clear males appear to make fewer attempts, however male attempts are more frequently successful – If that is the word.

  53. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Hans #44

    Your comment Hans…..’Nevertheless, I distributed the Ministry of Men’s Affairs letter widely among media. It is difficult to understand why NOT A SINGLE JOURNALIST has enough decency to expose this scandalous neglect of men in our taxpayer-funded responses to a suicide problem that kills more men than the road toll. What on earth could be the reason for our journalists’ frequent refusal to give attention to the men’s movement or to issues concerning men in particular?’…

    Yes Hans what you have said I not surprise at all…Ford’s post of #50 has summed it up quite nicely…

    Just my humble opinion here, if any Male journalist had the ‘balls’ and would dare to raise, and publish a in depth study of your above statement ‘the neglect of Men’ in New Zealand…

    I bet you the consequences of his actions…The male journalist would have to look for a new career or his other option would be, He would have to leave to N.Z to carry on his career as a journalist…For the Feminist movement would literary skin the Male journalist alive….

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  54. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to golfa #51

    I personal think ‘She’s very smart’…’I think’…And note the word I have used,’I think’… She as done a ‘deal’ with the police and the crown prosecutor and she is going to be a crowns witness against the accused …..for a very lenient sentence,such as home detention…

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  55. Ford says:

    #51..54..Smart = sly = cunning = devious = manipulative

  56. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Ford#55

    Spot on Ford…And lets not forget her agenda of …’I am also a victim’

    Kind regards “¦John Dutchie”¦Free at long last

  57. Dan says:

    So say around 100 a year? Far out. If the act has been in place for 20 years that’s 2000 and counting.
    Can’t help thinking there would be an outcry if it was 2000 women!

    ps get in quick and post a comment on this load of bollocks – which neatly sums up the whole problem I think:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/7015262/Men-are-marginalised-claims-book

  58. Tania says:

    Dan #57… I’ve left my 2 cents worth there… what a horrendous read! Just further evidence of the feminist machine hard at work… It makes me sick!

    Any word back from MOH?? I am suspecting not sadly…

  59. MurrayBacon says:

    I have been concerned for several years that middle aged men’s suicide is a blind spot in Government funded research in NZ. Although MoHealth reports show this as a high risk territory, compared to other age and gender groups, it is quickly swept under the carpet, ignored in epidemiology discussion and totally ignored in health funding.

    Some people criticise the Government, but it is only responding to public pressure.

    I have criticised hospital based researchers for taking little interest in middle and younger middle aged men’s suicide issues. However, their motivation is to treat the people that they see in hospital emergency rooms, mainly women and some younger men, who are every one still alive. I wonder if when men present for treatment, if they are seen? Even if the researchers were interested in why these 25 to 45 year old men take option EXIT, they couldn’t really do anything about it, as the Government funding has been set by electoral pressure issues. I have wondered if researchers avoid this issue because they suspect that they lack the tools to cut into these issues with any degree of success?

    This reflects most “people” in this younger and middle aged men demographic considering themselves as being not at risk of suicide, thus it isn’t an issue. The statistics and the very long pile of dead bodies must, somehow, be wrong. I have been this insensitive myself, for most of my years, to scared to face my own brittleness and weaknesses.

    In the same way that many neglected children, mainly men, may be triggered to extreme violence, without consciously knowing where it came from (their childhood or babyhood), people may be triggered to suicide too. Whether the circumstances that will or might trigger us to suicide, ever occur around us, is a matter of some luck, other people’s kindness and cruelty and good management of our family and friends. Many of us are not so immune as we choose to believe…

    So it seems that until alive men campaign for Government funding of research into 25 to 45 year old men’s decisions into not trying out hospital help services, but to solve their problems self destructively, then nothing will change?

    It looks like we have a chicken and the egg problem, to get research effort put into the 25 to 45 year old men’s suicide issue. Partly this reflects a lack of care, by many men in this age group, for their fellows and their selves too. In essence, we define a culture around us, us helpers, not users of help services. If we define ourselves as a service, then are we putting ourself into the category of water supply, sewage removal, electricity supply and taxation? This being so, we cannot be surprised if we are treated with disrespect as people, if we should fall down or partly collapse for some reason? A high suicide rate of us men is a fact of little consequence, in our society, in our culture? Although I have seen tears afterwards, that would leave some possible doubt that there was a bit more appreciation, even if left unsaid during the prior life?

    Our more sensible Australian cousins have been investigating the same issues and I believe have been coming to wiser decisions on these same questions. There is some Government funding for issues around men’s suicide and treatment avoidance and through the last few years fruit is showing.
    _____________________________________________________________
    Research priorities in suicide prevention: A qualitative study of stakeholders’ views
    Sara Niner,1 Jane Pirkis,1 Karolina Krysinska,2 Jo Robinson,3 Michael Dudley,4,5 Emily Schindeler,5,6 Diego De Leo2 and Deborah Warr7

    In summary, the current paper indicates that in future Australia’s suicide prevention research agenda should emphasise the evaluation of specific interventions, policies, programs and services. A priority-driven approach to suicide prevention research may ensure that the research endeavour provides the most useful information for those whose day-to-day work involves trying to prevent suicide.

    Some participants stressed that a significant proportion of people who complete, attempt or consider suicide do not seek help, raising issues about the accessibility of services that warrants research attention. Some commented that it would be short-sighted to focus the entire research effort on those who do present to health and community services, making comments like:
    ‘In all this we are still focusing on those people who present rather than on those people who don’t present. The shocking question is: Why do people kill themselves? Is it factors outside the mental health system, way beyond clinical presentations to broader reasons? We need to have a systematic look at these issues.’

    One participant described this in the following way:
    ‘Men don’t access services because the services are disrespectful of men and the circumstances in which they might come to seek help.’
    _____________________________________________________________

    In NZ, we will eventually benefit from successful Australian research into suicide issues.

    I am keen that men’s groups in NZ operate our own research, as we have access to the raw displays of these issues and we have more experience in dealing directly with these naked issues, that most other groups find so uncomfortable to deal with.
    MurrayBacon – deranged axe murderer.

  60. Gwaihir says:

    You are so correct Murray. The whole subject is simply dismissed as irrelevant. The hand wringers pontificate and condemn men who will not worship at their throne. Has anybody linked studies of sudden death with recent events. I have never seen any. Let us consider the pillar of the DVA, Allan Bristol. while women rushed to vilify him, who drove him to suicide, (Not to forget killing his children) This must be laid at Christine’s feet and the women who supported her. Where was Allan’s support?

    I rest my case!

  61. MurrayBacon says:

    After 5 youth suicides in Kawerau, the local coroner and District Health Board have worked together to see whether this could have been considered as a suicide cluster.
    Unravelling youth suicide by TONY WALL Stuff

    We have about 300 middle aged and younger middle aged men’s suicides in NZ each year. Probably half of them are triggered by familycaught$ and IRD CS actions. They are scattered throughout NZ, apparently thinly enough that they can be ignored as a cluster. If they were looked at in terms of how long since familycaught$ action, then I suspect that they would be quickly identified as a cluster. Australian research has supported this hypothesis, through the last decade.

    Funny isn’t it, that the only Government organisation that has access to this data, doesn’t see any need to look into it’s destructive impacts. (It should also be looking into children’s suicides in the same way. And parents driven insane by familycaught$ and CYF$ actions.)

    Are fathers/men appreciated that casually, that their families don’t see any need to fight to improve these issues in our society?
    Or do we trust the familycaught$ more than it is worth? MurrayBacon.

  62. Skeptic says:

    300 men killing themselves every year in a country as small in population as NZ (4 million approx) IS a cluster!
    You can bet your bottom dollar if it were 300 women killing themselves each year in NZ the polis would be racing each other to take action taken to find out why.
    Dunnothing – waste of space when it comes to men’s issues.

  63. Julie says:

    Poor Peter Dunne. You men who do research (there must be heaps of you by the amount of comments) may once in a while be compassionate. (here;s hoping)

  64. Gwaihir says:

    Here’s why Julie, good base figures are impossible to obtain. So many “Deats” are categorised as hunting accidents or any of a dozen excuses.

    Men and women react differently in time of stress. Man, being a solitary creature goes and does it alone. The hide in the back of the cave syndrome. Females, talk about it the cluster, support and chatter. Hence women’s groups thrive while mens groups splinter.

    This behaviour was identified 2000 + years ago and mighty leaders rose up, then women respected them! Oh how Things have changed,

    At lest Julie you are attempting to reinvent the wheel that was. I will don my armour, mount my dauntless steed known as Rosemonde, Fly to your side and defend (Well figuratively anyway) your virtue 🙂

  65. MurrayBacon says:

    From Hans’s original post, this attitude isn’t just a NZ problem. I have read through over 500 papers about helping people with suicide issues. While these were not randomly sampled, I counted the number that look at middle aged and younger middle aged separation. They number about 30.

    It is also very noticeable, that they were written by a group of about 15 people, mainly women with a few men among them. The largest investigations were generally performed by women alone, in PhD theses. The men were generally leaders in the production of smaller projects. Almost all of these were written in Australia or led by an Australian.

    I mentioned that my sample was not randomly chosen. As I was mainly searching for papers covering younger and middle aged men’s suicide issues, I would say that it was biased towards more in the area that I was literature searching.

    I throw most of the responsibility at men’s attitudes towards ourselves and each other. This is where we should start to make changes. MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

  66. MurrayBacon says:

    The best paper that I have yet found, into why most men do not seek psychiatric help and go straight to suicide, is given in:

    Intensified constraint: The battle between individual and social forces influencing hidden depression in men
    by Suzanne Helena Brownhill

    unsworks.unsw.edu.au/fapi/datastream/unsworks:546/SOURCE02

    Please note that this investigation was carried out by an Australian lady.
    It is important to note that most of the research into men’s suicide issues, is currently being carried out by women. While the vast majority of men are dreaming and self deluding about who and what they are, the sharpest and most valuable research is being carried out by women.
    In all humility, we should be being much more appreciative of this work….

    Best regards, MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

  67. MurrayBacon says:

    Hans’ original point about the lack of enquiry into the reasons for younger and middle aged men’s suicides is also being complained about in Australia.

    Professor Peter Bycroft made the same types of comments in his submission No. 41:
    Submission to Community Affairs References Committee Inquiry into Suicide in Australia
    by Professor Peter Bycroft

    http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate_Committees?url=clac_ctte/suicide/submissions/sub41.pdf

    From page 1:
    I contend that the major problems with suicide prevention in Australia relate to three interrelated
    issues:

    1. The control over research by a small and comparatively self-interested sector which
    is regularly funded, heavily based in the “medical/mental illness paradigm” (see later
    definition and discussion) and supported by often unquestioning senior managers in
    the Department of Health and Ageing (see “Adequacy of current research”);

    2. The ineffectiveness of the National Suicide Prevention Strategy and many of the
    continuously funded programs under its auspice (see “Effectiveness of the National
    Suicide Prevention Strategy”), and

    3. The generally token and largely unwilling attitude of some leading researchers, the
    medical profession generally, many academic researchers and the Department of
    Health and Ageing to accept the critical role played by three factors

    (1) the collective knowledge and experience of the community (including those
    bereaved/affected by suicide);

    (2) the impact of known life events and

    (3) the importance of individual resilience in predicting the likelihood of suicide (see “Life
    events and suicide”).

    These three interrelated issues have interacted and influenced outcomes to such an
    extent that despite the past twenty years of their domination of Australian suicide
    prevention research and funding, they have delivered no demonstrable difference in
    the incidence of or the understanding of suicide in Australia.

    From page 3:
    WHY DO PEOPLE TAKE THEIR OWN LIVES?
    These case studies highlight the diversity of people and situations that can lead to someone
    taking their own life. It is a complex issue. Edwin Schneidman, the internationally acclaimed
    suicide researcher, has suggested that suicide is “chiefly a drama in the mind” – that people
    become suicidal when their vital needs (such as their need for achievement and nurturing)
    are frustrated. Their common goal is to escape the intolerable pain or the sense of
    hopelessness they feel. As a result, they become increasingly focussed on their problem
    and consequently lack the ability to see any other option than to take their own life. When a
    person is in this state, the positive and negative aspects of the environment in which they
    are placed become critical to their survival.
    There are a wide range of attitudes towards people who choose to take their own life –
    varying from confusion, through guilt, to anger and condemnation. Those who are left
    behind after a suicide often struggle to understand the motivation for an act of suicide – be it
    altruism, despair or vindictiveness.
    The main difficulty in understanding arises because information about why someone ends
    their life usually comes from those left behind or by retracing of what may have happened or
    what may have been the motivation of the deceased. There has been very little research to
    clearly identify and articulate the meaning that the act of suicide has for the victims
    themselves. Several researchers have attempted to develop a classification for suicide, with
    concepts such as escapist suicides, aggressive suicides, revenge suicides, self-destructive
    suicides, and suicides to “prove oneself”.
    Despite the legacy and the impact that suicide has on those who are left behind, it is
    essentially a very private act, which has a specific meaning to the person involved. This
    meaning revolves around a certain ambivalence about living; it can involve a desire to
    convey a message and may include symbolic gestures linked to the chosen method and/or
    to the location of the suicide.

    Page 4:
    THE EIGHT MOTIVATIONS FOR SUICIDE
    The most recent theories about the different types and different motivations around suicide
    suggest that suicides can be categorised into eight identifiably different, but often
    overlapping motivations/reasons for someone taking their own life, namely:
    1. the result of mental health problems (e.g. dysfunctional behaviour, clinical
    depression, schizophrenia)
    2. the result of reckless behaviour (e.g. alcohol and other drug or substance abuse,
    dangerous or life threatening activities)
    3. to end physical and/or emotional pain (e.g. inability to cope, situational or episodic
    despair, relief from suffering, guilt, shame or loss, physical pain or debilitating illness)
    4. to send a message or obtain an outcome (defiance, notoriety, vengeance, leave a
    legacy or aftermath)
    5. altruistic or heroic act (relieving others of burden, to save another, to die for a cause)
    6. as a rite of passage (to express manhood/maturity, to make a religious journey)
    7. to express one’s right to choose (creative expression, considered choice)
    8. symbolic interest in the means/location (jumping, hanging, shooting; in the garage, in
    the forest, from a well known bridge or escarpment).
    In each of these circumstances the motivation of the deceased is different and the actions
    that could have been taken to prevent the suicide would vary. For some suicides, the
    motivating factors involve a combination of these eight.
    THE CONTROL OVER RESEARCH – THE “MEDICAL/MENTAL ILLNESS PARADIGM”
    Unfortunately, suicide prevention in Australia is predominated by one particular viewpoint. It
    pivots primarily around the notion that a person who is considering or who has taken their
    own life is most likely “mentally ill” (i.e. Motivation 1, above). There are three main reasons
    for this situation in Australia – one is definitional, one appears to be for simplicity sake and
    the other is about power and control over funding and resourcing.
    In terms of definitions, the definition of mental illness which is most often cited is from the
    Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM – IV) published in 1994. The
    definition is so broad as to be scientifically suspect – a mental illness can be as simple as
    anxiety, gambling, alcoholism, sexual fetishes through depression and personality disorders
    to chronic mental illness or psychosis. Critics of the definition, rightly state that it often
    makes unjustified categorical classifications of behaviours that could be better described and
    understood as normal human reactions. The predominance of this definition in the
    Australian suicide prevention sector has significantly restricted the development of a broader
    understanding of suicide and the breadth of situations in which it occurs (the remaining
    seven Motivations listed above).
    Most attempts to develop a comprehensive theory of suicide to include modelling of all eight
    of the above motivations have been strongly resisted by the Australian suicide prevention
    establishment. Too many researchers and policy makers choose to turn a blind eye to the

    Page 5:
    evidence that individuals do take their own lives to end physical or emotional pain (e.g.
    euthanasia), for altruistic reasons (e.g. to relieve others of a burden), as a rite of passage
    (e.g. in some indigenous communities), for important religious reasons (e.g. suicide
    bombing) or as a right of choice (e.g. some poets/artists). There are many motivations for
    suicide and excluding the evidence, frequency, the context and motivation for all suicides
    because they do not seem to fit a particular paradigm is essentially very poor science.
    Suicide has a continuum of causes and they should be understood and studied if a
    comprehensive understanding is to be developed – the alternative approach of focussing on
    mental illness has significantly retarded suicide prevention, scientific research and the
    development of soundly-based theory of suicide prevention for many years.
    The second reason for the predominance of the medical/mental illness paradigm is that it
    makes explanation so much more simple. Our consortium’s extensive consultations with
    families of those who have taken their own lives have impressed upon me how unacceptable
    this explanation is for them. Their beloved was not mentally ill – they were struggling with
    life events, some of which were within their control and others were experienced as unfair,
    intolerable and out of their control. Nevertheless, the media, religious leaders, medical
    professionals, depression support organisations and researchers still maintain that mental
    illness is the strongest link to understanding suicide. This is despite the obvious, objective
    scientific fact that, even if they were right they are essentially “medicating the symptom”
    (prescribing medication for anxiety, sadness, unsocial behaviour) rather than dealing directly
    with the cause – the known sequence of life events and each individual’s inner strength,
    ability and resilience when facing these potentially traumatic life events.
    The third reason that the medical/mental illness paradigm predominates Australian suicide
    prevention activities is to maintain control (consciously or not) over policy advice, research,
    government funding and the distribution of resources that is held by the medical profession
    and the medical/scientific establishment. Federal government advisory bodies and favoured
    recipients for funding tend to overlap substantially and are predominated by medically or
    clinically trained practitioners, “anointed” researchers and/or favoured service providers –
    many of whom sit on the government advisory bodies. The general community, independent
    researchers, skilled non-medical or clinical scientists are insufficiently supported or
    adequately represented in the current system. As a result, there are ample examples of
    continuously funded research activities that have yet to contribute significantly to the growth
    of knowledge and understanding around suicide prevention – apart from the often quoted
    “need for longitudinal randomised control trials”, “more research needs to be done/funded” or
    “it is complex and no generalisations can be made”!
    More importantly, the control of the suicide prevention agenda by vested interests largely
    drawn from the medical/mental illness paradigm has seen most publicly funded
    communications about suicide prevention falling into the category of “the cult talking to
    itself”. By this I mean that most of the federal government suicide prevention
    communications and, in particular the most recent LiFE Framework communications reflect a
    conversation amongst adherents within the paradigm rather than the development of
    effective communications for consumption by the general public.

    ____________________________________________________________________
    MurrayBacon comment:
    Professor Peter Bycroft then goes on to support positive reasons for living and building mutual support in the wider community. This positive approach can be instilled into people, long before problems arise and the risk of suicidal ideation rears its ugly head. These concepts were developed and clarified by Dr. Graham Flemming, in Adelaide 20 years earlier.

    Although Professor Peter Bycroft is criticising the overall approach to investigating the drivers for suicide in Australia, they are still in my opinion, the leading researchers into men’s suicide issues. They don’t have much competition, in the whole world. We are very lucky that we speak the same language and can freeload from the results of their research.
    At present, we aren’t even freeloading competently!
    MurrayBacon – frustrated axe murderer.

  68. Chaz says:

    re:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/7015262/Men-are-marginalised-claims-book

    Do I detect the influence of the S.C.U.M. manifesto in Clementine Ford’s diatribe?
    If you haven’t done so already, just google S.C.U.M.
    I came upon it because I detect “noise” on the internet. The fastest-growing noises include expressions of hatred towards white men. White women are the leaders of this trend.

    Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX1hkPUMCQ

    Don’t be tempted to think S.C.U.M. are an irrelevent fringe element. S.C.U.M conducts “education” programs in Swedish schools.

    BTW this is the first time I’ve posted anywhere apart from tech and IT forums.

  69. Down Under says:

    “New Zealand has some of the worst suicide statistics in the world. Men represent nearly three quarters of the deaths, while hanging equates for more deaths than every other method combined.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7603221/Boy-aged-under-ten-committed-suicide-stats-reveal

  70. Bruce S says:

    ‘New Zealand has some of the worst suicide statistics in the world. Men represent nearly three quarters of the deaths, while hanging equates for more deaths than every other method combined.’

    And Chief coroner Judge Neil MacLean also made the point that “there is no clear answer as to what is behind the “concerning trend””. Perhaps he needs to be directed to menz.org.nz and he might become somewhat more enlightened.

  71. Hans Laven says:

    The coroner and of course Peter Dunnenothingformen continue the biased consideration of suicide figures, expressing concern and calling for action about somewhat higher youth and slightly higher Maori suicide rates but not about the male suicide rate that dwarfs all others. Why the denial?

  72. Darryl X says:

    I dunno about New Zealand, but last I read about suicide in the US is that age has declined precipitously during the past forty years. From around 65 yrs to 25 yrs avg. And approximately one-quarter are the result of divorce and child support. From what I’ve read, I don’t think all that many in the US are the result of chronic mental illness. Most are the result of men being left in circumstances which are so painful and from which there is no escape but suicide. It’s a practical response. Not an emotional one. And in the US, number of suicides by men annually exceed those by women by a multiple of approximately four.

  73. Down Under says:

    During the period of the Clark led labour government New Zealand’s suicide figure were actively suppressed as the numbers continued to steadily grow. Although this practice has stopped the article above is the first time I have seen any acknowledgement in our media of the number of male suicides. What hasn’t stopped is the spin doctoring of the news to make this a youth problem and now wait for it – a Māori problem. There is still an abject and collective failure of the media and the administration to acknowledge the known and underlying causes. While that situation is condoned and allowed to continue men will suffer death not by suicide but through criminal nuisance. A large number of these male suicides would not happen if the anti-male social policy and practices used in this country were stopped. It’s comparable say – to a group of people with blow torches backing a man toward a cliff, where he has two choices, get burned or jump – oh look at that, he committed suicide, wasn’t our fault HE jumped. This inherent lack of judgement seems to have pervaded both society and the media and logically, until people wake up to this and give the issues behind male suicide considerable and considered acknowledgment, the number of suicides will not decline, and neither will the increasing number of men who choose to make another country home.

  74. Chaz says:

    Who did the Helen Clark gummint appoint as Suicide Commissioner to look into the causes of high youth suicide? WAIT FOR IT… IT’S A GOAL!! (in more ways than one). They appointed a woman – a member of the very collective that IS the problem. The mentality of appointer and appointee was the same, an apparent inablity to open their minds in matters of gender. This mental handicap, along with the torpitude of brainwashed men, will, I fear, prevent the problem ever being addressed.

  75. MurrayBacon says:

    Man falls to death inside university building
    This incident might have been suicide?
    We need to look more carefully at the reasons behind rational suicides, with a view toward seeing whether this is appropriate, or whether as a country we should be aiming to make suicide less attractive?
    In my opinion, we could save quite a few wasted lives, if men spoke more openly about their feelings and the stresses on them.

  76. Hans Laven says:

    Murray (#76): Yes I’m sure it was suicide, as was the death two days ago of prominent lawyer Greg King. Usually when police say “there were no suspicious circumstances” that’s a secret code for suicide.

  77. Down Under says:

    It would be easy to make the assumption that all men that commit suicide do so under circumstances of extreme stress and that may sometimes be the case – like the guy that put his head on the railway tracks at Panmure and got it chopped off by a passing train – he did have financial problems. But I think when men undertake a premeditated suicide with a strategy they do so because their life is over, it has come to an end, there is no future, there is no reason to go on, no reason to create, no purpose to exist, no one to live for. They see themselves quite simply as expendable and they accept that and kill themselves. I remember seeing a guy stressed one day and the next day he murdered his wife – one of the early family court cases where he had been kicked out of the house, very expensive one in Giles Ave, in Auckland, so I think the stress thing can go either way when it comes to provocation but otherwise I think with all these male suicides it is quite possible that it is a rational decision based on the circumstances they are confronted with, which while they are under stress they are under a degree of stress and they can still weigh up the options and decide to say good bye to the world. Did I explain that right? I don’t think it is simply a rising stress level that reaches a point of no return, I am sure it is far more complex decision. We are the rational and logical gender.

  78. Down Under says:

    No Hans, no suspicious circumstances means no one else was the cause of the death, which also includes medical fatalities.

  79. Hans Laven says:

    Down Under (#79): Yes fair enough although police will often refer to ‘natural causes’ or the like, but they are not allowed to mention the S-word. Certainly when it’s a violent death and they say “no suspicious circumstances” it usually means suicide.

  80. Ford says:

    #77..as i understand through my grapevine greg king was suicide by gunshot as he was diagnosed with diabetes and in 12 mths was going to lose his legs..end up in a wheel chair and was going blind

  81. Down Under says:

    No Hans. Natural causes means the police have sufficient evidence to accept xyz as the cause of death. No suspicious circumstances means that they need the coroner to make a determination. It is simply a matter of polite process – not cover ups and yes that does sometimes mean suicide.

  82. Ford says:

    ‘no suspicious circumstances’ = the cops are not looking for anyone in connection to his death as they already know how he died

  83. Down Under says:

    Interesting suggestion that Mr. King’s death was suicide. That wasn’t my first thought when I heard the media reports. But at the same time police statements also need to have some consideration for the family.
    We have had the regrettable circumstance in our family were the police released the name of the deceased to the media at the same time they informed the family and his teenage sister got the news off the car radio whilst driving alone down a mountain road where she couldn’t even stop the car. There could have been collateral damage from the shock.

    But aside from that if his death was a suicide then I think; that should at the right time be public knowledge as should the reasons for it.
    When I was a much younger man an older gentleman who I knew very well (not code for my father) got himself into some financial trouble. He had contemplated suicide but in the end had rationalized that financial problems weren’t such a grave sin that should necessitate taking one’s life.

    He also felt it important to share that with me at the time, telling me “you are more important to your family than money.”
    His family would have been devastated as would I if he had taken his own life – and we would have been left wondering why.

    I was a bit shocked at the time that the circumstance existed. If he hadn’t said anything to me I would have been none the wiser that he had ever been in that position. At that time I was a young father with a couple young of kids. I suppose if I took anything away from the conversation it was a determination never to be defeated by a problem and end up in that position. It gave me a perspective on how other people would feel – an, if I were him situation.

    Anyway I don’t know if Mr. King’s death was a suicide but hopefully it is a matter that can be discussed with some certainty in due course rather than left to speculation although I also think the circumstances of avoiding medical consequences is substantially different to the situation many other men in New Zealand find themselves in prior to taking their own life.

  84. Ford says:

    suicide isnt the answer to any problem but some think it is and when they attempt it id rather see them succeed than fail..imagine the crap coming their way if they do fail

  85. Down Under says:

    @ Ford. I agree with you there. The difference as I see it is whether you draw a short straw through nature or other people determine that your only choices are short straws.

  86. hornet says:

    Smooth media job – get the story out early he had HEALTH problems – thats what is getting all the media attention and while the heat is on thats all the public will go away thinking.

    Call me a cynic but – what would the ramifications be for the legal profession – IF he did top himself ? – what would the public perception really be then? ….. someone has to ask this question – did manipulating legal process to allow a guilty person escape justice, actually get the better of him – did his conscience finally kick in, when he knew the truth of the matter but manipulated the system to divert attention away from that TRUTH….

    Ive dealt with several of his clients in my past – and I can tell everyone here, if this so called justice system actually dealt in TRUTH over manipulating legal PROCESS to get people off – we would see a lot less crime, fewer victims of horrible offending – which is usually always inflicted on society by the worst criminals the system has allowed to be created – defended by these types and allowed to get away with crimes and escape any real punishment – time and time again.

    And somehow we are supposed to celebrate this?? Come on…….

  87. Ford says:

    #88..people cant handle the truth

  88. Downunder says:

    This is the first time I can recall a suicide being spoken about so openly through the media. Hopefully this reflects an openness that will continue and help reduce the overwhelming number of male suicides that plague our society.

  89. Murray Bacon says:

    Addressing the difficulty to treat sometimes suicidal men, when they will not come in for treatment, or don’t believe that they want or need treatment, or don’t trust treatment providers is the single largest challenge in attempting to offer suicide help to men.

    Recent european research has discovered ideas on how to work around men’s treatment aversion, by better identifying risk factors, so that more proactive positive public mental health initiatives can be applied and also treatment be offered proactively to individuals.

    newly identified group of adolescents at invisible risk for psychopathology and suicidal behaviour findings from the SEYLE study

    Citizens are now being encouraged to discuss mental health issues with their GPs, so that issues can be addressed while they are less developed (and lower cost to treat!). This is quite a change from earlier policies throughout the world, where mental health problems were viewed as not real and people should be able to just snap out of it. This attitude allowed Governments to massively underfund mental health treatment and hospitals to divert funds allocated for mental health treatment into sexier areas of medicine, such as obstetrics and gynaecology. (Snap as a noose rope pulls tight..)

    How to talk to your GP about your mental health

    Contact me personally, for subsidised cost rope. MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

  90. Murray Bacon says:

    Our Australian cousins, who are willing to look at men’s suicide issues, are launching a new study ‘What helps prevent suicidal behaviours in men?’

    Further information is available on a Facebook Page.

    In NZ, we focus more on support for family left behind after suicide. MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

  91. Downunder says:

    I think it is wood for trees stuff you are talking here.

    Sure you may identify and even treat some suicide canidates by learning to recognise certain patterns of behaviour but as Einstein once said “You can’t fix a problem with the same thinking that caused it.”

    We have lived through an age where a combination of lunatic economics and radical feminisn have existed happily along side one another, with any voice of reason severely compromised by a financially shackled and idealogically restrained media.

    All this suceeds in doing (and continues to do) is to occupy a few people in mindless pursuits while ignoring for a moment that next week the same thing will happen again.

  92. Murray Bacon says:

    Our Australian friends are more likely to identify systemic problems in the way that familycaught$ treats men, than we NZers are – because we just aren’t looking or listening.

    While our researchers aren’t looking, even if submissions are made to NZ Government, about how men are being treated in familycaught$ and that some respond with rational suicide, Government just ignores these submissions……. You are dead right, alas!

    Next week the same will happen again, my estimate is 150+ pa ie 3+ a week……

  93. MurrayBacon says:

    Suicidal Behaviours in Men: Determinants and Prevention in Australia Report
    Citation: Kairi Kõlves, Eeva-Katri Kumpula and Diego De Leo (eds.) (2013) Suicidal Behaviours in Men: Determinants and Prevention. Australian Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention, Brisbane

    Even if NZ lacks resources to put into researching men’s rational suicide issues, we can still benefit (freeload!) from our superior Australian cousin’s work.

  94. MurrayBacon says:

    UK has the same lack of interest in men’s suicide and the worst culprits are men themselves
    Britain’s male suicide rate is a national tragedy Ally Fogg The Guardian Newspaper

  95. Phil Watts says:

    Suicide is not complicated. If people are treated unfairly and cruelly and they lack supporters with real empathy and friends or if they cannot envision their world improving then they may well be driven to suicide. Change those things and the result changes.

  96. Phil Watts says:

    Males are treated 4x worse than females in the NZ Feminazi Police State in all areas of health, the injustice system, jailing, ‘domestic violence’ female lies and treatment by police etc etc feel free to add to the list.

  97. Phil Watts says:

    And of course the worst of all is the state sponsored kidnapping of their children whom they love and who love their dads.

  98. Ministry of Men's Affairs says:

    Phil Watts (#101 and 102): Pithy, no-nonsense comments, thank you.

  99. Phil Watts says:

    Dear MoMA, (#103): you’re very welcome. Thank you for all your tons of useful info and work and comments over the years. If you help men, you are also helping women and children and the world as a whole.

  100. Phil Watts says:

    woops i meant 104.

    I can also fix addictions by treating the cause instead of the symptoms like conventional ‘cures’ treat.

    Please send money to me instead of all the doctors, lawyers, judges, govt, councils, and dubious ‘charities’. (only half joking)!

  101. MurrayBacon says:

    #106

    Please send money to me instead of all the doctors, lawyers, judges, govt, councils, and dubious ‘charities’.

    I really like this comment!!!! Many a true word is said in jest and we must not lose sight of the truth and value in these words.

  102. MurrayBacon says:

    I have always been mystified by the NZ medical professions refusal to respond constructively to men’s suicide rates, in a public health sense. It isn’t just the male doctors, but female too.
    Maybe this article illustrates why.
    The problem is too close to home, doctors don’t really advocate for young doctors, they are just expected to “man up”. If I read it right, it says that most doctors are more worried about protecting high salaries through their career, than in making the earlier years sensible work/life balance or survivable. They are callous to their own mental health, or delusional about their mental health strength.
    The poor dear souls…..
    The stupid, greedy souls more like!
    Somebody said “physician, heal thyself”. They could, but their own greed blocks their path.
    So it comes back to what I have unfortunately suggested for quite some time, it has to be consumers acting to protect themselves, to move men’s (and probably women’s and children’s too) suicide solutions forward.
    And this is happening, thank goodness.
    So we should all support those consumers who are leading and driving this positively. Thanks, MoMA.

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