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Fri 26th October 2012

Ministry of Men’s Affairs Officially Recognized

Filed under: Gender Politics,General,Men's Health — Ministry of Men's Affairs @ 1:40 pm

Well, sort of. The Prime Minister’s office replied to a letter from MoMA, addressing it to Kerry Bevin and myself at the Ministry of Men’s Affairs. No response was included regarding our request for $5 million (somewhat less than is spent every year on the Ministry of Women’s Affairs), but the welfare of men was acknowledged as our topic and we were graciously thanked for “taking the time to write to the Prime Minister and share your views”. Still, it’s a step forward!

122 Responses to “Ministry of Men’s Affairs Officially Recognized”

  1. Down Under says:

    I’m not sure where to put this but I think it deserves a spot on menz.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=tFoFtIqvkGE&feature=endscreen

  2. Hans Laven says:

    Thanks for that Down Under! The young man had charisma right from his first spoken words, looks great and sure packed an emotional punch in his performance. Looked as though he already had quite a few fans in the audience. Reminded me of John Lennon in his frank, humourous confidence. And he gives testimony of what it’s like to have parents separated and in conflict. Many more from his generation will speak up similarly I’m sure.

  3. Skeptic says:

    Donation done.
    Looking at the photograph heading the article I’m thinking an eye-catching logo of some sort would be useful. Do you have anyone working on such a thing?

  4. Hans Laven says:

    No Skeptic, our personnnel don’t yet include a graphic designer. The Ministry of Men’s Affairs has the following letterhead and logo though:
    See
    http://assets.menz.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/MMA-letterhead.doc

  5. Ford says:

    #4..i bet that took alot of hours and brainwork to come up with that

  6. Divorced Man says:

    I can help with website. good luck

  7. Hans Laven says:

    Actually Ford (#5) it did take several hours to find and modify the symbols in digital form. The rest of the letterhead copies that used by the Ministry of Women’s Affairs.

    Are you working with the men’s movement or against it?

  8. Mr question says:

    I run a technology company and can help with databases, email tools, txt tools etc. I would love to help. Do you have a site? Subscribe for info form?

  9. Hornet says:

    Here is a story which I am sure we are all familiar with, and I have placed it here under the MoMA heading – because this is a big concern for men, fathers – character assassination, vindictive nasty personal assaults on your credibility and reputation, false accusations and the like, which are “BEST PRACTICE” tactics in the family court – designed to destroy a Father – and when most allegations are proven to be false there is NO consequence of for the damage done.

    The Auckland school saga as it has unfolded – and keep in mind, before any investigation into the allegations were even made, a MEDIA release ( sent to SPREADITWIDE.COM ) was made by the woman to cement her intention globally to destroy this mans reputation and his opportunity for future employment – based on some historical allegations, 2.5 years earlier, which surprise surprise are resurrected in the midst of a matrimonial dispute.

    28 October 2012

    Dear Parent
    We write to you about a sensitive matter involving the School’s Executive Principal, Peter
    Clague. Unfortunately this has now been the subject of internet speculation and, given the
    potential for negative publicity and misinformation, we want to ensure that you are informed.
    Peter has been involved for some time in an acrimonious matrimonial property dispute with
    his ex-wife, Ms Jackman. Last week Ms Jackman laid a complaint of assault with the police
    in relation to an incident that occurred over two years ago. Peter has given us a full account
    and we are assured that the incident was minor and accidental.
    No complaint has been, or was ever made, by Ms Jackman to the Board.
    We have sought professional advice which makes it clear that the proper approach is for the
    legal process to take its course and we await the outcome of the police investigation.
    Peter Clague is a talented, hard-working, and inspirational leader. The School is privileged
    to have had Peter at the helm for six years as Executive Principal and, before that, for six
    years as Senior School Principal. Peter continues to enjoy our full and unanimous support.
    Several days ago Ms Jackman, sent a press release to the media concerning her allegation.
    The choice to make this matter public has had little apparent regard for the possible impact
    on our school and in particular our students, many of whom are studying for exams and
    need no such distractions. Peter is particularly distressed at the possibility of this happening.
    It is important for each of our three schools that it is business as usual. The focus of the
    entire school community will continue to be, as always, the well-being of our students.
    Peter has been overwhelmed by the support he has received from parents, students and
    colleagues.
    We thank you for your understanding and compassion for all involved and for your continued
    support for the School.

    Board of Kristin School Charitable Trust
    Board Chairman
    Philippa Fee

  10. Hornet says:

    And here is the outcome of the Police investigation – is there now a consequence for damaging this mans reputation? At the end of the day, his reputation has been harmed as a result, he is fortunate the board at this school have supported him – most would usually run a mile and walk away from the bad publicity.

    its refreshing to also note that this man, deservedly, has received a huge amount of support from parents. And rightly so.

    What needs to now commence is a WITCH HUNT to expose this tactic and put an end to it. All too often fathers are being destroyed by allegations which are unfounded – its all too easy to cry WOLF, with no consequences when and if the allegations are proven to be untrue.

    NO person should be allowed to make media statements – designed purely to discredit and destroy another persons credibility before any investigation, conviction and punishment has been handed out. The Justice system and family court need to put a stop to this BEST PRACTICE.

    8 November 2012

    Dear Parents
    We write to provide you with an update on the police investigation regarding the complaint
    laid against Peter Clague by Ms Jackman.

    The police have informed us that no charges will be laid against Peter.

    They will issue a report later this month, which we will review once it is received. We
    understand that there could be more media attention. Whilst this may be distracting, the
    board’s focus, as well as that of the Principals and staff, remains on our students. Consistent
    with our earlier letter to you, it remains business as usual for each of our three schools.

    During the past week Peter and the Board have received an unprecedented number of
    messages of support for which we are very grateful. The focus of the Board, Principals and
    staff remains on our students as we move into the all important conclusion of a busy year.

    Board of Kristin School Charitable Trust
    Board Chairman
    Philippa Fee

  11. Hornet says:

    I forgot to add, of course there is now a band of “nasty WITCHES” lining up to see Peter removed from his employment, wanting blood, wanting other investigations and answers – regardless of the outcome – as I said previously – the damage is done, mud sticks, his reputation has been tarnished for good no matter how much support he gets in the future. And this is the acceptable Best practice procedure of the family court in NZ.

    Did you notice the rise in Ex parte without notice – applications for Violence orders and Protection orders – I recall many years ago, that Ex parte, without notice applications were reserved only for Rare occasions when an order needed to be sneaked through under urgency to protect someone from serious and immediate harm – but isnt it interesting that now the BEST PRACTICE of the family court is to accept most applications as Ex parte – so no one has the chance to present evidence to counter the allegations. I had this tactic used on me, and I was only fortunate my lawyer at the time picked up on it and we were able to get papers before the judge in defence – and all allegations were THROWN OUT. Had I not been quick to reply – I would have had temporary orders made against me and I would have only been allowed to see my kids under SUPERVISION – the most horrible exile a man could have placed on him = worse still when he has done NOTHING at all to warrant this.

    This is yet another BEST PRACTICE tactic that needs exposing and a stop put to it – ALL applications for most allegations should in the first instance be ON – NOTICE – with the “Exception” being the alternative. Not the norm as it is currently.

  12. Ford says:

    hornet..theres a thread on whaleoil about this..women defending the actions of women etc blah blah blah

  13. Hans Laven says:

    Thanks for the updates on this story Hornet. You probably saw the letter sent by MoMA on 4 November to the journalist who wrote the initial article about this:

    And another commendation was due for the story Luther Blisset (#20) brought to our attention:

    Dear Ms Johnson

    The Ministry of Men’s Affairs (a community group to protect the welfare of men because successive governments have failed to do so) applauds you for the manner in which you brought this sad news to the public’s attention. We congratulate you especially for making clear the context in which this complaint was made, and for raising through implication the possibility that the complaint was motivated by greed in a dispute regarding relationship property.

    We regret that any statute of limitations regarding time elapsed has been removed for this kind of complaint. Further, we believe that if a man made the same complaint against a woman in the same circumstances, police would give weight to her explanation and would soon close the case. That is, we believe that the police’s pursual of this case and indeed the legal mechanism enabling them to do so have arisen out of discriminatory attitudes against men.

    Thank you again for your work.

    Yours sincerely

    Chief Executive
    Ministry of Men’s Affairs

  14. shafted says:

    Yep. In a previous post i advised that i complained about the lies my ex told regarding her financial situation in admin review. This is an offence under the act-absolutely no doubt. I also complained that the financial details were presented to me at the review (mine some 2 weeks before hand) The helpful response was that it was up to the review officers discretion to allow the late information, and there was no commentary made about the lies i raised in the review, at the review. I have been invited to apply to the family court for relief, but have had it helpfully pointed out that i am out of time for filing. The IRD considers that as the proceedings were not under oath, no offence has been committed. What a crock.
    I too have been the target of allegations and character assassination, with NO consequences for the ex.
    Unfortunately, there are limits to what one can achieve. I have limited financial resources these days and i have proven to myself time and time again that throwing good money after bad is senseless. I have tried Mps, courts, social services agancies and the like to no avail. My children are now at the point of “not wanting to come for the week ends” due to the mind f….k mum has perpetrated upon them. Is that not a tragedy?
    One of my children is becoming particualrly needy and unable to cope wth adversity. She is evidently conflicted about her desire to see me, and her eagerness to please mum by not wanting to. Add to that an unhealthy dose of implanted negative thoughts and manufactured problems about time with dad and you get the picture.
    My life has turned into one constant battle. On the one hand, i battle for the children’s well being and try to provide balance and loving discipline in their lives. On the other, i sometimes question whether my ongoing contact is any good for them or for me.
    I am “losing ” my children in terms of their bond with me, and there is very little i can do to stop it.
    Rock on

  15. Down Under says:

    They didn’t advise you that no offence has been committed; they advised you that they considered, to lie in relation to that piece legislation is not an offence because the evidence is provided in circumstances where an oath is not used.

    It may be that an offence has been committed. Using a document for a pecuniary advantage is one that comes to mind

  16. shafted says:

    I understand the nuance, hwoever the act specifically states that it is an offence to mislead. Whether under oath or not is irrelevant.
    Legal opinion is that they have erred but i am unlikely to hurl another $5k at the problem, only to have some decision such as “would not have affected the outcome”
    Regardless of form over substance-it’s wrong

  17. Non Custodial Dad says:

    Shafted # 14.

    As one who has experienced something similar (though not the iniquitous IRD review ‘process’) I empathise with your position. Sadly, however much men in our situation love our children, there comes a time for some (like me) when financial resources are expended and all fight has gone that absence of current or likely future contact with kids leads us to decide to move on with our lives. As a 60 year old with several kids (including a 15 year old daughter) with whom there has been no formal or meaningful contact since early 2007 it is time to accept that what bonds we had are broken and they are more committed to their mother than to me. What is left of my life I now intend to live for me. What that will bring I have no idea but I feel much better for having finally made the decision to re-establish myself and move on. Its not something that others might agree with but I can hold my head high as I know I have done what I can for the last 10 years to be involved in my childrens care and upbringing. I have had enough, Roll on 2013!!!

  18. Down Under says:

    It is an offence to mislead. It is the IRD’s position to choose not to prosecute a person for misleading them. It is between them and her. That offence is nothing to do with the loss suffered by you. If the deception results in a loss to another person – you – then I think you should be looking at section 240 of the Crimes Act.

  19. Scott B says:

    Surely if the IRD person knows it to be a lie, then they are committing fraud by continuing?

  20. hornet says:

    Shafted – mate I hear you loud and clear – I have come to accept – and this is important for you – that you will have no say in how your daughter is raised. I have had to accept that. Its the reality of what the system wants.

    As for getting the “RIGHT” answers or results, or uncovering the truth of any matter – the costs prohibit even the best of us from ever being able to challenge this system – and that is by design.

    If things were done for the right reasons, these fleas in the legal profession would be all out of a job – period.

    If this system was ABOUT the kids, and they adhered to the many legal obligations already in place for CHILD – most of us would not be hear writing about our frustration.

    Take the Guardianship act for example – the most useless, unworkable piece of garbage ever created – why, because try enforcing all your so called rights – the time, the costs, and even if you do score a point, its removed the very next day with another breach of the rules, and you are back into the cycle – because there is NO CONSEQUENCE to these maggots who keep fking around with kids.

    Sadly SHAFTED, like all of us, you have to accept some things which you cannot change and put your energy into the things which first and foremost make you happy again – and work towards putting yourself into a position to receive your children when they are old enough to understand – thats an expectation and a known result of what this totally fked system does to KIDS – they will revolt against the mother when they are old enough to understand what was done to them – sadly for us, we have yet another problem to contend with in the future….. a messed up kid who has been totally destroyed before there life has even stated.

    This system and all the parasites working in it need to go. new broom, totally new legislation. legislation NOT Driven by greed and a need to pay off huge debt – but legislation about TRUTH, accountability and fairness and most importantly about actually caring for kids, protecting them, and helping parents – rather than enslaving them.

    keep your chin up shafted.

  21. hornet says:

    The wost offenders are the very people you are trying to get to agree with you and do things for the right reasons – history demonstrates these parasites are not ever going to help you = you have to get your head around that fathers.

    As an aside – if PARENTS banded together and formed a united organisation – which demanded and agreed on all the right points we talk about here ( yes mothers as well as dads have common issues they are concerned about which need protecting ) we would hold significant sway with politicians and how they vote – and how legislation was enacted.

    I think most parents would be aghast to hear that the govt is using children ( child support tax and penalties ) to leverage borrowings for debt – that has to be something which all parents oppose.

    Our kids are NOT for sale and I object to the care of children being used corruptly and by deceit as a business.

  22. Down Under says:

    The way I see it is that the review officer is a contractor to the IRD. It is the IRD that is being deceived. I think a prosecution against the mother would force the review officer to
    a. Deny that they knew the information was false or
    b. Admit to the IRD that they knew it was false.

    We just getting the big finger here from the review officer because they think they can get away with it.

    That aside the loss suffered as a consequence is something separate, so once the loss is suffered then I think there is a case to give to the Police.

  23. shafted says:

    Thanks all for your comments. Yep Downunder, there is also an agency argument-the knowledge of the agent is imputed to the principal blah blah.
    I know it sounds in the realms of the weak, but to be honest, years and years in this system,with the odd meaningless win have ground me down to the point that i need to work on what makes me happy-and my children. I have spent years pissed off, fucked off, angry, beaten, sad etc etc and you know what- my strategy is to give up the fight for justice. When you are rear ended time and time again, you get to the point of just accepting the shitty situation and doing the best you can to have a good life around the edges of this ballshit.
    I did not listen to the advice of the battle hardened. Roll over-you will not win!. Had i done so, i would have an extra $100k in my pocket that would take the edge off the child support which i am convinced accounts for most of our gross domestic product.
    He He cop this. The admin review was a retrosepctive adjustment to a period 4 years ago, materialising a debt of $16k. They now advise that they “may” remit “some” of the penalties, provising i am a good boy and pay it off as per the “arrangement” they have struck in terms of deductions from my employer.
    Very much contemplating a large vodka!

  24. Down Under says:

    So at this point you are probably not interested in writing to the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to ask if whether the decision not to prosecute (because the evidence is not given under oath) is IRD policy or the legal opinion of one of their agents.
    MoMA might write and ask.

  25. hornet says:

    Big picture here lads – have you noticed the timing of all these back dated claw backs in so called arrears… I know way too many people in the same boat who are all getting hit with outrageous back dated lump sum DEMANDS – a lady and her husband I talked to today – just got a back dated hit for $70K.

    Do you think this has anything to do with the huge debts we have, and the desire of GOVT to hit us all has hard as they can to make up the cash flow shortages – because thats NZ’s problem you know – we have NO CASH – at last count I think we had a cash shortage of some $10 Billion….

    Figures below

    However, the bad is that the cash deficit’s more than $10.5 billion.
    That’s something the Government has to borrow to fund.

    (So this CASH DEFICIT is a BIG PROBLEM – WE GOT NO CASH BABY.) Anyone here ever tried running a business with NO CASH FLOW… you gone……down the toilet.

    Crown debt’s increased to more than $50 billion which amounts to more than a quarter of the country’s value.

    (And they save the WORST NEWS FOR LAST – HOPING people miss it – GOVT DEBT INCREASED TO MORE THAN $50 BILLION – are you kidding me – so where are all the savings these arseholes claim to have been making…………!!!!!!!!!!!)

  26. hornet says:

    MoMA – this is a survey which needs publishing = individually we are all getting screwed – so it would be interesting to flush out the FACTS as to just how many parents are all of a sudden being hit with massive “ARREARS” in Child Support?????? That would be an interesting statistic……….

  27. Scott B says:

    #23 you would have the 100 grand extra but then the IRD would just screw you out of it and more anyway. So again there is no winning no matter what.

  28. Rogered says:

    Yes. I went through an admin review. They found my potential income was 5x my current income. And they back dated it. I went from owing $0 to $30k in one day. And I had 30 days to pay. Add the 10% on day 30 and the 2% each month and I now owe approx $70k.

    The admin review was unarguably wrong. Yet all the money I spent trying to get justice in the family court was wasted and my final advice was to walk away. I could never get justice. Then I has to pay her court costs.

    Makes one feel like a host with a large blood thirsty creature attached.

  29. hornet says:

    Rogered, so isn’t it time we all banded together to expose it for what it is……this is insane and it cant be allowed to continue!!!!!!!! People I know are all good people, really good members of this society – some are professionals and they are all disgusted by how wrong this is. No sane human being would submit to these demands being place on parents – in fact the ONLY response when confronted with these ruthless, draconian UNREASONABLE demands is to fight it and NOT pay it – Surely there must be a way all PARENTS can get together in numbers and fight this corruption.

  30. Rogered says:

    Hornet, I have been harping on this site for ages. Why don’t we organise a movement, get together. But no one responds. Women are organised. They socialise, write lists, lobby…men don’t.

    So we are left being screwed. If anyone is interested in at least discussing doing something then for gods sake say something!

  31. Non Custodial Dad says:

    Rogered # 30.

    Forget it! I have been trying that in various forums for the last 8 years or so. Sadly, while men on the whole are happy to complain about the position they – and their children – are in and regularly make very emotive (and at times stupid/childish) comments about “familycaught$” and “DunneNothing” etc. when it comes down to it they will do little to help themselves or others. You are correct about womens’ ability to organise themselves (multi tasking?)and they should at least be commended for that! (Much as it irks me to say it!).
    There are a number of mens “movements” but they are disparate and unfocussed, instead pursuing narrow and often narrow minded self interest. Until ‘men’ get real and recognise that challenging substantive issues in a cogent, articulate and focussed way instead of constantly moaning about how hard done by they are, mens’ role and importance in family life and wider society will continue to be ridiculed and ignored.
    For example, consider those who protested outside the homes of lawyers and judges some time ago. While well intentioned they undoubtedly adversely affected mens interest by further alienating the people they were incensed about and who have power over them and their children. From the many comments made to me at the time they also gave a large proportion of the (Hamilton) public the impression that we are all loonies and that our children are better off with a mother who concentrates on the children rather than disrupting the lives of the neighbours of the people they were targetting! It saddens me but……

  32. Rogered says:

    Exactly. We see some bearded dudes holding hand drawn signs on the street or barking through loud speakers in vans. God. Before I was caught up in this I thought they were a bunch of crazies. Sad, miserable people that were probably guilty of something.

    I am thinking of a coherent organisation here. Suits, media trained men, coherent consistent messages, pr…

    Right, well since nothing has been done I might do something. I have thought about it for a while and now it’s time. Watch this space.

  33. Non Custodial Dad says:

    Rogered

    ‘Nail’ and ‘Head’ come to mind! As you say, what is required is a coherent (well founded and focussed on the real issues) organisation. And that fronted by well presented, sensible, credible and articulate people with a grasp of what really matters. Men (and women?) who are able to react quickly to bad press, be ‘on message’, be proactive with Government and its agencies, the Media etc. on relevant issues – particularly Family Law and childrens’ rights to have fathers involved in their upbringing, realising the guardianship provisions of the Care Of Children Act – and bringing errant FC Judges to book etc.

    An example of mens’ ambivalence is reflected in the lack of involvement with the passage of the draft Child Support Bill. Yet MUCH moaning about it various forums! What hope is there really? I wish you success in your endeavours…..

  34. Rogered says:

    Non Custodial Dad. So we should just accept things and move on? And you don’t want to do anything about it? Or anyone else.

    Well, for the sake of all the unfortunate fathers that will come up against the system in years to come, and like me discover there is no network for support, no coherent response, I am prepared to do something about it. It’s unacceptable. I am sick to death of men moaning about their specific issues and doing nothing about it. Where is the back bone?

    Anyway, maybe it will be just me alone. I don’t mind, give me a few weeks and I will organise something.

  35. Non Custodial Dad says:

    Rogered.

    I do not think men “should just accept things and move on”. I thought I was expressing support for your principles and stated endeavours! I regret that you picked up on the wrong message! Perhaps a good example of why our lack of cohesion exists?

    I was idealistic when I was first drawn in to the FC and CS systems. I believed in the power of right and truth, little realising that neither have a part to play it and ignoring what I had been told by others who had been flayed by the system before me.

    From an early stage I tried to play my part: joined UoF, self represented in FC, fought consistently over 10 years for my kids and my (perceived)rights, assisted others on CS and other matters including doing legal research, advising on procedures and writing affidavits etc etc etc.

    I also pursued a policy of regular correspondence with IRD, MPs, Ministers, and other arms of Government, also the cretin Boshier, the written press, TV and radio etc. and constantly promoted our and our childrens’ cause at every available opportunity. But the absence of wider commitment and support from fathers was evident and one voice (or many voices working in isolation) had no effect. Eventually one gets worn down as Scrap_the_CSA, for example, will surely testify.

    Had I not been committed to moving on early next year after accepting my lot following an unsuccessful and stressful 10 year war of attrition I would have been happy to work alongside you! Contrary to your (incorrect) assumption I believe we share the same ideals. I sincerely hope you can be the one who makes the difference. Somehow, despite your early enthusiasm and intent I fear you will end up like a lot of us. I will follow your efforts assiduously wherever I may be. Best of luck!

  36. hornet says:

    34 and 35 – you are both on the same page – keep it that way. I agree with you both – both on the experiences I have had to endure for ten years – yes its a war of attrition – because as an INDIVIDUAL we are hopeless – we get cast in the same mould as those unfortunate fathers who have NOTHING and have nothing left to give – so they do all end up looking like jesus with a washboard around his neck.

    Its not that there cause and there concerns are not the same as ours, its just they have not realized there protest action IS NOT GOING TO change a thing.

    A PARENTS movement – get Fathers and Mothers Together on this – because remember this – there are many MOTHERS – GOOD WOMEN married to good fathers who are EQUALLY disgusted by this system. I spoke with two yesterday = good people, good parents each with children from both sides of the equation living with them – both sharing horror stories as to how they are being treated – totally UNFAIRLY. Both the father and the mother.

    This is the AIM we must all focus on – Draft up a list of COMMON points of concern and work on those – leave the Shit fight between the sexes in the gutter – because that just plays into the hands of those making lots of money out of that conflict.

    Divide and RULE = A PARENT organisation – which says enough is enough, will be a very powerful section of society with a VOICE.

    1. Lets start here – IT IS NOT acceptable to have a system which leverages borrowing against the plight of children and parental separation.

    That is the current system – it is designed to be difficult to challenge – it is discriminatory, and it is currently about INCOME through PENALTY – that agenda needs to be flushed out for what it is. While the PENALTY regime is in place, there is NO incentive for this system to be improved. In fact the more penalties imposed increases the systems income – and that can not be good for ANY PARENT – male or female.

    2. As parents DEMAND a child support system which is based on FACTS alone – many parents would not understand that the current system is being re-designed to target BOTH parents assets and your hard earned property. It is insane for the system to expect people to agree to the current way in which these outrageous demands are made – no one should have to accept the word of a person, who can simply make up a number, not based on any factual evidence of your income – and send you down a path of financial misery for the rest of your life. Unless of course they are deliberately told to create this situation so the PENALTY industry can improve.?

    Demand a that a simple set $$ amount per child be set for all children – this would be FAIR and easy to manage and I don’t think you would have a single parent who would be opposed to that. That has to be better than the current shambles – which is only making lawyers richer – to the detriment of children and parents.

    3. Demand that any system can be investigated for any breaches of a PARENTS human rights, and Bill or rights and civil liberties, and that its processes MUST be fair and IMPARTIAL – because currently it cannot be investigated by the HUMAN rights commission – IT is a PROTECTED species BY DESIGN – Even The General public would be abhorrent that that – get the PUBLIC on side – DEMAND that Govt MUST be equally accountable in its procedures and processes – in the Child Support Review process it IS NOT.

    Target the things that matter, and the things which we all know can make a difference – seek to Define COMMON ground and set your targets there – keep all Conflict between men and women out of it – because if we can do that the CHILDREN – the most important people in all this – the ones currently being totally destroyed by a system of GREED and CORRUPTION – will benefit in the long term. And so will PARENTS.

  37. Hans Laven says:

    Regarding the case of the school principal accused by his ex-wife in the context of relationship property dispute. Well it hasn’t ended quite as we understood because the police issued him with a ‘warning’. Again, if the gender roles were reversed the police would have heard the accused woman’s account and simply, quickly have taken it no further. But when a man is accused by a woman and there is insufficient evidence, police issue a warning. Institutionalized sexism.
    Nevertheless, the ex wife is ‘astounded’ that police have not pandered entirely to her wishes, and she tries to justify her employment of a public relations company to publicize her accusation against her ex. Perhaps she will start screaming at police and then claim assault when they try to restrain her. Actually, why wasn’t the woman prosecuted or at least warned for public nuisance or offensive behaviour for ongoing screaming at her husband outside their house to the extent that her husband felt concerned about the impact on neighbours?

  38. hornet says:

    This crazy cow is also a psychologist – can you imagine the advice she is dishing out to people??

    I have been through the exact same theatrics, screaming outside my work in front of staff, screaming in front of the child in front of teachers,and in a doctor in his surgery with the child present – all quite acceptable stuff if your a woman. No consequence for this in the family court – all quite normal rational behavior apparently.

    If a man behaved like this, we would be put in a straight jacket and marched off to a padded cell.

    But no its ok for women to be VINDICTIVE, NASTY, and just plain horrible – thats the provocation tactic in full swing – trying to get a man to react. And when they do – see I told you he was Violent – told you.

    If we were not all living in this politically correct world- if we were back in the caveman days, Im not sure this sort of behavior would have been tolerated for long.

    Hans I was thinking more = lay a complaint for Defamation – she has tried to directly destroy the mans character and credibility. Best practice in the family court – regardless of TRUTH and FACTS.

  39. Scott B says:

    Same thing when the latest teen heart throb comes to town girls and women go and scream at them, pull at their hair, scratch them, try and rip off their clothes, try and get any sort of souvenir they can. This has been described on tv as “normal behaviour”.

    Let’s reverse the genders shall we? Boys and men doing the same thing to a teen beauty queen. Will this be seen as normal behaviour or will the boys/men be arrested for assault and be labelled predators?

  40. Ford says:

    on whaleoil.co.nz all they can go on about is him having sex with a few teachers and a few mothers..ppl seem to have forgotten the original points of conflict and are targeting him for whatever dirt they can come up with..one said he should cop all the blame because he earns more than most of his exploits..and the whingers on that site tyhat want to hang him out to dry also happen to be women.

  41. Ford says:

    #38..can relate to the maniacal woman screaming her tits off because i needed to get my tools out of the boot before she took off in MY car…7am in a nice quiet cul-d-sac and all you can hear is this nutjob going off her tree..also putting up with her abuse and swearing screaming in front of the kids then telling lawyers i didnt care what they heard..bring back the caveman days and clubs

  42. hornet says:

    Reminds me of an old caveman joke I once saw – A picture of two cavemen and a cavewoman.

    Caveman says to the other caveman – Im thinking about teaching her to talk – what harm can it do?

    or

    Why do cavemen drag there woman around by the hair? So they don’t fill up with rocks.

    Some levity for Sunday morning………

  43. hornet says:

    Im concerned with how this Whale oil blubber site – a total lack of BALANCE in presenting this issue – is the editor also anti men?

  44. hornet says:

    #40. As my wife even says, SO WHAT – good on him, he is a man, he was not with the maniac at the time so why is he not allowed to chat up a few woman after school or date a few teachers. Is he NOT allowed to have a life after living with a nut job? Obviously not.

  45. Ford says:

    apparently men are supppose to live their lives according to how women think they should be living it..its so confusing when the ground rules change from day to day
    whaleoil site admin can be seen on tv from time to time debating politics..cameron slater

  46. Ford says:

    i use to use caveman as a nickname

  47. concerned dad says:

    Hans Laven #37. The case of the principal is nothing more than a vindictive soured ex who has no objective other than to destroy the man she once chose to love. Family Court should act against these vexatious women, but of course it won’t since they would rapidly do themselves out of business.
    I personally believe all such-vexatious spiteful scornful vindictive women (as they usually are), should lose cutody of their children, and also have any property settlement automatically reduced by half.
    But of course that won’t happen either.
    So long as women can get away with crying wolf, making false or significally unfounded allengations regarding their ex’s parenting abilities or conduct with their children, they will.
    But you knew all that, already.

  48. Down Under says:

    @ concerned dad – You are assuming it was a matter of love. There are plenty of co-dependent women around that attach themselves to the nearest sympathetic man for any number of reasons other than love. Some are simply better at orchestrating the pretence.

  49. Ford says:

    love for alot of women comes in the form of paper money

  50. Doug says:

    Feminism has destroyed families in the West. Feminism was only ever a Western phenomena. The West is declining and will be under 1% of the world population in five generations time. The Thirld World is growing in numbers and also flooding into Western countries. This article gives a little insight, including the Rockefeller Foundation funding

    http://www.henrymakow.com/playboy-and-the-homosexual_re.html

  51. concerned dad says:

    Down Under #48 – I gave her the benefit of the doubt. It raises it to a whole nother level of pre-determined gold-digging otherwise. And again – benefit of the doubt – any such gold digger – especially one who seems to have a reasonably keen sense of kill, will usually know the law well enough to know she has to hang in there the full 3 years to get the full cheque.
    Few would bail before the 3-year mark, knowing the fight for 50% is assured at the 3 year point, moreso with the ‘he assaulted me (albeit 2 years earlier)’ trump card up their sleeve. That alone would have assured them the house, with him booted out on the strength of a 3day order, and then a stealth full DPO. She didn’t play that card earlier, because it was not to her advantage. Or she didn’t understand the law. On the strength of that alone, I doubt she was pre-determined to go only so far, and then screw him for anything.

  52. hornet says:

    I found out sadly for me – after I married the Chief GOLD DIGGER – that she had told her mates she only wanted to marry for money – not Love – and yes at exactly the 3 year mark – off she trotted to the LAWYER and played ever card they gave her – which they already had stacked against me before I even knew what was happening. How to turn a good man FURIOUS . I did not react, I kept my cool under trying circumstances – but after ten years of doing everything the system asked me to do, and more, it actually would have been better for me and my sanity to have just hauled off and smashed her the first time she refused to let me see my kids – rather than go through ten years of hell and NO positive results in the family court – Thats what the family court system is designed to do to fathers – to PROVOKE you into reacting and all the corrupt lawyers working it for all its worth just cant wait until you do – conflict they have built an industry on keeping it alive.

  53. Ford says:

    one good thing about going to prison is CS stops accumalating after 13 weeks

  54. hornet says:

    So by Design, the system offers fathers two choices If you react to Provocation in trying to protect your child from harm – harm the system knows is occuring but refuses to prevent in any way and if they cant pay the excessive demands and penalties in child support – heres our support plan – you have two options – SUICIDE OR PRISON.

    From my observations that seems to be all they offer towards actually helping fathers.

  55. Down Under says:

    If you think about it you are already in prison. New Zealand, the open prison, where you can be stopped at the boarder for not paying your child tax, where if you are lucky you can see you children at visiting time, but only if you pass the family court warders inspection, and you get your living allowance but you are still expected to work. Maybe that should be the New Zealand men’s forced labour camp.

  56. rogered says:

    It is exactly like prison. They can check into your bank accounts, take money, deduct from your pay, come onto your property, make up a new income for you, back date when it was first due, then add penalties since it is late, take your car and possessions, stop you seeing your children because she said you were dangerous…what part isn’t like a prison?

    Oh, and throw you out of your own home if it’s suggested you were abusive, charged with rape as well as molestation years later on ‘repressed memories’. Try and seek redress through the court and you quickly discover that option appears to exist but doesn’t. Pay the lawyers, pay the other parties court costs.

    The only thing you are kindly allowed to do is work very hard, pay taxes and pay incredible amounts of child support.

  57. hornet says:

    CORRECT – this is the TRUTH. And don’t forget, you are also not allowed to be a full time father or supporter of any other family or children. its not acceptable that you reproduced with another women ( even a GREAT woman the system hates them too ) and its not acceptable that you have other commitments – living breathing people.

    It is NOT acceptable that you travel, enjoy yourself in public, have a nice car or provide anything good for your other family – how dare you have a life. You are supposed to demonstrate at all times that you are OPPRESSED and SUBSERVIENT to the demands of the state.

    You lads are right on the money here – that is how I currently feel – a prisoner in my own country. Oppressed not based on facts or evidence – but OPINION and an ASSESSMENT as to what I COULD EARN – wow I wish jobs advertised vacancies like that – you can earn what ever you like – pick a number and we will agree to pay you what ever you like – what you believe you are capable of earning – based on nothing more than what you wish for – total fiction and make believe.

    And so many parents are currently being hit with back dated demands based on this form of assessment. A total fraud. Corruption at its worst.

    This sham system needs to be exposed for what it is………. a fking BIG business leveraging debt against children.

  58. Down Under says:

    If you compare the child support SYSTEM to the banking system you can see they operate in the same way. The state is happy to collect interest on the principal by way of penalties. They are competing systems in an economy that is in an already in an endless tailspin trying to pay interest and principal. Anyone who believes that theses competing systems are not increasing the rate of decay in the integrity of the financial system is either a madman or an economist.

  59. Down Under says:

    And economists are closely relating to constipated mathematicians – they think as long as they can work it out with pencil and paper they will be fine

  60. shafted says:

    Yep-just copped an extra $300 per month,. On TOP of the increased amount as per admin review-to pay off a debt that was created 3 months ago plus the penalties thereto.
    Made a big mistake today. Wrote to the ex and asked that we adopt a co-operative approach to managing my daughters weight (which has ballooned lately) was advised that if i mentioned the evident weight problem to my daughter (Which i have), i would turn her into an anorexic or bulimic (she is 9). it Has been suggested that the weight problem is perhaps due to my parenting 2 days per fortnight. Have been reminded that my parenting skills are laughable, and that the children are frightened of me (news to me). I pointed out that despite her opinions to the contrary i provided a valuable contribution to the children from a parenting persepctive (hence the laughable comment). My older daughter took a fall at her mother’s home a week ago. (had it been at my place, the police and lawyers would have been informed) I am sure she hurt herself a bit, but not to the extent that she makes out. She happily played and did not complain with me all week end, but i have been chastised for not giving her pain relief when with me, and the child told mummy she was too scared to tell dad she was in agony. She collapsed into tears as she walked into the ex’s house on Sunday. all my fault.
    I am losing the kids and can do nothing about it. Shrinks, social workers, doctors, police, lawyers, courts. Tried it all. Society has me guilty without trial.
    Advised her that her interrogations of the kids, and her rewarding negativity about their father was destructive. she advised that the last thing she wants to do with the kids is acknowledge my existance. Wish she had the same attitude about child support.
    we are relegated to paying bills (through the nose) and seen as laughable objects for contempt and direspect otherwise.
    TIRED.
    9

  61. Ford says:

    ive been to jail..was probably the most relaxing stress free time of my life..if i ever went back id be ok with it

  62. hornet says:

    Shafted, mate, here are some words which hopefully just CONFIRM this is not about you at all. Its all about creating any situation into an opportunity to stop you seeing the child.

    I am sure you already knew that, but I know sometimes its good to be assured you are not the problem.

    My nine year old daugher – now 11.

    Was sent to spy on our home on more than one occassion – to count any assets we had so they can include these in child support assessments – she cried her eyes out at the stress – but this is acceptable to the system.

    My daughter went for years in her mothers care and it was not noticed that the child could not see the board in school – it was only after we had her eyes tested during one of the few visits we had her that this was identified, and we went to the effort of having glasses prescribed – in the mothers care the child would still be struggling at school unable to see.

    My child had swollen tonsils – and surprise surprise, the mother did NOTHING about it, until we made an effort – again during a fleeting visit with us, to have her inspected by a specialist = and his reaction was one of horror = how could anyone allow a child to have this in her throat – tonsils removed and childs health has blossomed.

    Have we ever received any credit for this – not a chance.

    Rather, like you – at every opportunity I am told my daugher is scared of me, does not like visiting us blah blah blah – its like listening to an old record.

    There must be some training school ( lawyers ) where they are taught all the ways to deprive a man of his kids and how to massage the system to get there way.

    Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. The child is clearly living two lives – scared of the MOTHER to acknowledge to her that she actually loves her dad and his family. Thats what she is actually scared of the stinking bitch who has been allowed to mind fk her for ten years. And on it goes.

    You know my thoughts on the child support scam – its BIG business leveraging debt against children and treating GOOD PARENTS – FATHERS like Criminals when they cant pay the demands.

    Dunn has to be exposed for the bullshit he is spinning – the Child Support Formula is not what is used by REVIEW people to determine INCOME – rather they use a crystal ball, and some fantasy assessment formula based on your potential INCOME.

    I just had a report from my lawyers – stating forget challenging this corrupt system – the law is TOO difficult for even them to understand, and effectively there is NO way to challenge these decisions. So we are fked.

  63. hornet says:

    Shafted, the system appears intent on adding more costs to anyone who dares to try and challenge it or seek legitimate deductions. That is my experience. They had me paying MORE THAN The maximums permitted – with penalties.

    In fact lets review this bullshit system.

    I received a letter from Child Support after my INCOME statements were received at the end of a financial year.

    I PAID what they told me to pay – because it was FAIR and was actually based on my income as per the assessment formula.

    Then the REVIEW REQUEST which I was not allowed to physically participate in – relegated to a PHONE call only.
    Discriminated against – because they refused to accept I am a full time father. Biased and not impartial because the Review nazi refused to even read my submissions beforehand.

    The fantasy, assessments she made were based on make believe – I was assessed on what ASSETS I have left.

    I was assessed at MAXIMUMS, with penalties thrown in, for all the time I was paying what they had originally told me to pay – a balloon penalty payment demand was made of me for $7000.00. I told them to fk themselves and refused to pay it – hence the bailiffs arriving and taking my family vehicles = to extort the payment from me.

    Thats the reality parents. Make up an amount you cannot pay, increase penalties and then use this bullshit to attack your assets.

    No one in there right mind would agree to this.

  64. Down Under says:

    They don’t like that you understand – you’re a threat to them and they want to get rid of you. Their behaviour means that the system discriminates even more against intelligent men. The trickle-down effect is of course young men wise to their future prospects electing to either not have children or to go elsewhere.

    Bit sad really when you think about how much damage can be done by so few people.

  65. Ford says:

    any excuse the system can come up with to extort money from people they will do it..govt and CS = scum

  66. hornet says:

    So lads what can we do about it? A well planned marketing and media operation? Stories have got to be told.

    I am also concerned at the numbers of parents getting hit with huge back payments with penalties – its like they are so desperate for money to pay off debts, they are looking at any and every parent who has something they can take……

    Professional couple I know just got hit out of the blue with $70K in so called arrears – out of the blue.

  67. shafted says:

    Yep- i tend to deal with a woman aged about 12 at the Ird-and she seems to become some other person every month or so.
    You know what-its not that i have lost my balls-its just that i have been beaten at every turn. How is it that some hired gun (lawyer for child, shrink etc) can make decisions (and believe me, their opinions count) about MY children. How can they know more than i do. They don’t but when we are cast as the villains our opinions and desires and the childrens needs are relegated to mere banter that lip service only is paid to.
    Like i have contended many times in this forum, if you use the words “controlling, abusive ,irresponsible, alcohol, selfish, unfeeling etc” they have essentially slam dunked you before before you can say “f….d again”.
    Like Hornet, encourage the kids to snoop and tell tail on you (real or imagined crimes) and you are dead in the water and the machinery of state is all too ready to click into unbridled action and gain their retribution by skull f…g you for the 40th or 50th time.
    There is no accountability for a mother’s actions (unless the kids are murdered) yet the standards i am supposed to attain in terms of parenting are simply unattainable.
    I love and care for my kids but to discipline them in any way is proof that i am an an asshole. Not discipline by hand-chastisement, time out, pointing out the error of their ways simply not allowed.
    You see this confirms that you are a bastard who is unworthy. The contrary opinion is that you are a father who is training the children to be civilised and self sufficient memebers of society-but surely my motiviations are more sinister?
    Notwithstanding the topic of child suport, all i want is quality time with my children and an ability to impart my views with them, without fear of a lynching by the state or my ex.
    Surely those of you in a similar position relate to this. Are we so undervalued in this ball shit society that our opinions are a joke and our contribution deemed worthless.
    Fathers are disadvantaged from the start. Work your back side off to provide for the children and the VACCUUM (aka the ex) and then, upon seperation, be told that “the bond is with the mother” Why is it that our contribution going forward is relegated to second place beacuse we are male? Why is it that if i was married to the ex , i would have some input into the money spent on the cildren yet now that i do not live with them-i do not.
    I have a mate who seperated (actually she had an affair and kicked him out). Day one she bought a $36,000 car on tick, and the payments for that alone are half of the child support he pays. What would you do. He is in the position of forking out to meet necessities, or watching the kids suffer. At no stage has she been admonished for blatantly irresponsible decision making. Yet as Peter Dunne says, far be it for the governemnt to influence the spending habits of the family unit (unless of course you are the liable parent, in which case they just hook fictitious ball shit amounts out of the bottomless pit called your income. And like Hornet so aptly says, the income does not have to resemble the facts. It can just be a figmment of some 12 year olds opinion.
    How can i ever be a meaningful contributor in my new relationship (2 years) when i am brought to my kness financially and emotionally.
    Rock on

  68. Doug says:

    @64 – not having children is exactly what they want you to do. we are hard wired for having children and families and life is pretty empty and unrewarding without

  69. hornet says:

    Shafted its not about losing your balls – its about fighting the fights you can win – and being sensible to choose where to put your energy.

    Its clear, that NO Amount of money, time and energy or “Balls” will get you anywhere in the family court and Child Support SCAMS – so any energy you have – it needs to be put into whatever gets us a positive result – nothing else is acceptable. the tide needs to turn on these parasites.

  70. Ford says:

    i heard of a case where a man skipped to aussie to avoid CS..he came back to nz when his kid was about 20 or so and was hit with a massive CS bill..a year or so down the track he died and ird started chasing and harrasing his child for the money who it was intended for in the first place..how fkd up is that

  71. hornet says:

    does not surprise me – you have to wonder what calibre of person could lower themselves to work in that environment?

  72. Down Under says:

    @ Ford – That’s a slippery slope isn’t it, imagine the IRD chasing your children for money while you are still alive.

  73. Ford says:

    DU..nothing would surprise me when it comes to ird

  74. Ford says:

    hornets..disgruntled bitches with attitudes about men and a sence of thier own form of justice

  75. Rogered says:

    It all sounds so familiar. You could be writing my case. In my admin review it was declared that the upper maximum $120 odd k was a suggestion. And made it far higher.

    I went to court. Impossible. I had to give up on the court steps, beaten by my lawyers that told me they had reviewed it and I had absolutely no chance of winning. Even though they told me i had a good chance. Even if I won, there would be another review next year, and the year after. So I paid court costs, today.

    Funny, the lawyers all seem shy to talk about it. No apology. I email for advice now and they don’t bother answering. After I spend tens of thousands of dollars. Each lawyer I spoke to charged me $5k and had different advice. Most didn’t seem to understand the law.

    Everything is in secret. Not allowed to speak about it, confidential, private…everything she says is allowed.

    I am deemed too unsafe, even though I follow Buddhist principles, to see the children. When I last saw them they were asking strange questions…how much money do you have etc. at age 8.

    The ird realise a mistake has been made. The review response is wrong. Easy to see and documented. They called me to provide advice. When I asked them what they thought about the review they said they couldn’t comment. I suggested they censure the review guy. He is incompetent.

    For example. Ird says ‘well get your name off th birth certificate since you don’t see the kids’. My lawyer says ‘what? You can’t do that’ etc etc e fing cetera. That’s how it works. Poorly defined law, open to interpretation, ambiguous…

    This is the last 3 weeks worth of activity. It stretches back years. No chance of seeing the children.

    Stress levels through the roof, each day a dark day.

  76. hornet says:

    Rogered, I know that feeling mate, my wife and I have put a hold on seeing the child, too much stress involved – on her and us, and to be honest I am sick and tired of trying to prove myself against the constant barrage of defamation concerning my parenting ability, and my ability to be a great dad. Which my wife assures me I am with our family and our other child. But its hard. very hard not to react.

    So we all agree here Court and lawyers do not want to help – funny you should talk about lawyers not wanting to even scratch the surface here = and be all secretive and unhelpful = because that is exactly the reaction I have had = and I have had these lawyers for years – quite happy to delve in on other legal requirements over the years – but no such reaction when it concerns Child Support matters or taking the system to task – even when the agree behind closed doors that the system is WRONG, is legally difficult – even for lawyers and they agree with 99% of my concerns.

    So what is this, a legal system told not to investigate, not to push too hard on this issue? What are they protecting, themselves or the system? Strange indeed.

    HAve you also noticed how any letter of response – if you actually get them to commit to writing which is rare = they state – sorry but you have written to us outside the time frame – so regardless of whether you have a legitimate complaint or not, we are not going to discuss it, or fix it, because your 2 second window to talk about it has elapsed – sorry come back in two years and try again. Wankers

    if I ever talked to a concerned phone operator = who was sympathetic to me and agreed with me, you never get to talk to them again. Cant have that – they probably get the sack for conceding the system is a sham.

    Put all the energy into postives, there must be ways in which all this negative energy can be pushed in a direction which gets results……..

  77. Ford says:

    hornet…lawyers do not want the issues solved because it will halt their lucrative gravy train

  78. shafted says:

    Rogered-your name is similar to mine!
    and yes, we all wear the same damn tee shirt. Hornet , i totally understand. I have had many times when i have felt like walking away. The visits are stress filled with my children (god bless them) becoming more of a train wreck every time i see them.
    Rogered, i know every day is a dark day because it is for me too. We have to try and focus on the things that give us some joy (sport and food and the occasional beer) and try not to let this relentless exhausting shit ruin out lives.
    I try very hard to rise above the maggot attacks (thats unfair to maggots) but the reality is, when you are told that you are useless and that your parenting is “Laughable” its pretty tough.
    Lawyers-now isn’t that a great topic. How many human beings are worth $350 an hour?
    What sort of profession charges you for photocopying phone calls and “incidentals thereto”. I got an itemised bill of about $7000 once and included was a $3 parking charge while they ducked into court to file some paperwork. I asked for a receipt and he generously waived the $3. The $6997 remained!
    I spend hours thinking about how i will strategically manage the ex and the kids and no matter how much planning and thought i put into not reacting to the constant barbs-I react. It is hard to remain silent when you are told that the children are frightened of you. Should they be-in my view no, but when they are constantly schooled that dad is the boogey man, its hard to overcome that.
    At the risk of sounding sensitive, i take some comfort from this site in knowing that i am not alone and that there are hoards of us out there suffering on the end of this corrupt, uncaring bullying system. Like Hornet, i have a new partner (2 years) who has shown me that there are good and decent kind women out there. Shame on my children’s mother.
    I am not religious but i take some comfort in the fact that life tends to be fair in the end. Her behaviours and hatred will turn full circle down the track. I am imperfect but i can honestly say that i have tried, and hopefully there will be some reward for that before i turn up my toes.
    Stay strong Rogered -SHAFTED

  79. hornet says:

    Ford – I get that part – lawyers raping parents of money for no result, but what is interesting on the Child Support front – is they are not even prepared to stick there heads out of there office doors to address the concerns – so I am talking about that issue – I know they try hard to keep conflict alive and to keep this business booming – but for some reason the CS system is off limits – they are very reluctant to do anything – and I find that intriguing. Almost like they are scared to say or do anything against this part of the system – I have noticed this directly. Ask for some action and they run a mile – bit like asking for complaints against the law society to be prepared because of the atrocious antics of another lawyer – but they WILL NOT walk down that path – protectionism of each other.

  80. hornet says:

    Shafted – when we have NO contact with the child, and when we dont buy into the game – life settles back to NORMAL, stress free and we are happy – in many ways this has been the ONLY way I can protect my family from the harm the other version of life causes. Yes we miss the child, yes I know she misses us, but I am convinced the stress on her, being stuck in the middle and exposed to horrible, behavior for which there is NO Consequence, is better for her and for us. Sad but true – thats all the system offers a parent.

    As for the AMBULANCE at the bottom of the cliff – the psychologist told me directly – the KNOWN results and consequences of the Bad behavior of a parent who uses a child to leverage property and money, and who deliberately stops that child – either directly or indirectly – by alienation and by causing so much stress around each visit with the father – the KNOWN results are that the child will REACT against that adult who has caused all that unnecessary pain. And this usually happens when the child becomes a teenager – and for girls, the reaction towards the mother is extreme.

    When they realize that they have been used and abused and that dad was actually a good bugger all along. The system knows this, and actually expects it – rather than helping stop the behavior and making it accountable, they prefer to see kids kept in constant conflict and harm – damaged forever, so the BUSINESS and conflict continue for as long as possible.

    There is currently NO penalty, legislation, or punishment for a parent who does this to a child. This is a big issue and it needs to be exposed for what it is. The Business of deliberately allowing harm to kids for profit. Both systems are doing this. FC and CS.

  81. shafted says:

    Yes, I have witnessed the blow back in my friends child. Over protected, dad put down time and time again and now the child has rebelled against mother and reforged a bond with dad. I pray for the day my children will understand that i did everything in my power to be with them, and i also pray that they come to understand just how much of a coniving c…t mum is so that they will be able to avoid her totally unacceptable viscious behaviours.
    I agonise over the same decisions you do-do i cease contact? My current thinking is no because i feel like i am providing some sort of calm in the storm, and perhaps another frame of reference for the kids, but like you, i see the stress and anxiety in the kids. They are conflicted. They are frightened to acknowlege love for me for fear of displeasing the antichrist (ex).
    Mother pushes and pushes and pushes and belittles me in the hope i will react. I truly believe she would like me to react violently because then all of her ball shit lies would prove to be true.
    I won’t give her that satisfaction

  82. Scott B says:

    Who else gets (or got) this old chestnut… “you can’t see the kids, cause you haven’t seen them in ages.” Even though the only reason for that is that she has told you that you can’t see them! Great logic and yet the courts agree with her!

  83. Scott B says:

    when we have NO contact with the child, and when we dont buy into the game – life settles back to NORMAL, stress free and we are happy – in many ways this has been the ONLY way I can protect my family from the harm the other version of life causes. Yes we miss the child, yes I know she misses us, but I am convinced the stress on her, being stuck in the middle and exposed to horrible, behavior for which there is NO Consequence, is better for her and for us. Sad but true – thats all the system offers a parent.

    Word for word with us. Word for word.

  84. hornet says:

    THE PENALTY industry = USING CHILDREN as Leverage – have you noticed that all recent proposed changes to the FC and CS system are based on more PENALTIES – for non compliance.

    So we have a system which depends on PENALTY – more PENALTY = More DEBT = More borrowing against that debt.

    Why else would a system make demands of a parent, demand payments which they know the parent can not pay or afford – so penalties and debt increases – unless by design it wants this situation in the first place. There is no other logical reason.

    Take the PRISON situation described by FORD above – why create a system where you have to wait 13 weeks ( 3 months ) before your obligations for CS cease? Surely if you go into prison , CS should stop the second you are incarcerated? Your ability to earn income is ZERO from that date, and this fact could not be more clearly defined.

    But the system wants you lumbered with DEBT it knows you cannot pay, and which is certainly not based on your INCOME at the time.

    As with the REVIEW process, you get hit with huge payment demands ( not based on any facts at all ) – the system knows you don’t earn this as INCOME, it never considers the facts of a financial return – but you are locked into a system of penalty and debt – and by design, you have NO way of challenging it – we have all proven that here – it is by design, difficult, costly and impossible to challenge – and you are forced to wait in some cases up to 2 years before you can challenge or contest the findings – a wall of false HOPE – by design – but again and usually always you walk away defeated again – to find more has been demanded from you, and you are forced back into the cycle of DEBT you cannot afford. Under the most grueling punishment regime – loss of freedom and threats of property seizure – more punishment in fact than those who commit serious crime. Quite unbelievable really.

    So again here is another example of CREATING penalties and debt which they know you cannot pay or afford. And the ONLY logical result of this, is the ability to create a business around the ability to borrow money against that DEBT OWED – the more DEBT owed, the more that can be borrowed against it – using YOUR KIDS as leverage.

  85. Ford says:

    #79..they dont have to do anything..as long as theres a parent paying hand over fist wanting to have access to their kids..all lawyers have to do is sit on their fat useless arses and hold out their hands

  86. hornet says:

    SCOTT B – I want your stories, I want all those who are “word for word” suffering the same unacceptable shit – this system needs a fking big shake up – those defending it under the guise of LEGAL and JUDICIAL superiority and intelligence need exposing. Its a complete sham – and its fking over our children at every turn. People – PARENTS working TOGETHER, will make a difference – I am sick of these high and mighty wankers sitting there telling me how to run my family, telling me what they think is good for my children , imposing there values on my family. Looking down there noses at me, like they are from some higher class of people. All they are protecting is there bank balance, nothing more, nothing less.

  87. Ford says:

    i was charged $1200 just to have a consent memorandum drawn up..charged 4 hrs for something that was drawn up by a computer in less than 5 mins..ripoff asswipes

  88. hornet says:

    KIDS – the ULTIMATE LEVERAGE system – if your going to EXTORT money from a PARENT – what is the best way to do it – hold the kids to RANSOM – DENY ACCESS by DESIGN and make you PAY.

    If someone molested your child – what would you want to do to that scum?
    If someone kidnapped your kids – what would you want to do when you got hold of them?
    If someone harmed your kids – what would you do?

    The system allows harm to kids – deliberate harm.
    The system deliberately deprives you of your kids – by design.

    PROBLEM – REACTION – SOLUTION.

    Anyone ever heard of this – Create a PROBLEM, all the time knowing the REACTION, and have a SOLUTION on offer, having already known how people will REACT.

    PROBLEM – Deliberately Deprive Parents of there children – Allow false complaints of abuse or violence. Allow BAD behavior, and Alienation – thats all acceptable in this game.

    REACTION – Every parent will react the same – Parents will do anything to see their CHILD and protect them from HARM.

    SOLUTION.

    Offer a system – the Family court and CS systems – Rigged by lawyers for money, using the child – parent reaction as leverage.

    A great business plan. That is what we are locked into here – and its allowed to run just long enough to suck you dry financially and physically.

  89. hornet says:

    #81 Shafted – mate think of it like this – Oxygen mask in an aircraft scenario – you put your mask on FIRST, the kids second – WHY – because you are no use to the kids if you are DEAD or UNHEALTHY.

    So as with this cycle of abuse – walk away to fight another day – you are better off to your kids, fit and healthy in the future, and available to help them when they need it, than dead, mentally emotionally and financially drained by this system.

    These are known consequences – so be smart and take the hard action now – you will be so much better – not buying into the C…nts game – lets be up front here = they are C…nt who do this to children – that is the most appropriate word for them.

    You might even see some small changes if she gets a new boyfriend – I noticed this – then all of a sudden they want some freedom – so they go from stopping you seeing the kids, to wanting you as an on call babysitter. Dont buy into that game either, you will be used and abused at every turn – we tried and all that happened was the new Boy friend was just like her – as the relationship developed he became just as much of an A.H to deal with.

    You will be again drawn into conflict – accept you cant do anything or have any say in what happens while the kids are in her care, you will be challenged to sort the new man out, but again its all designed to create provocation and a reaction to your detriment. walk away. be there at the for the end game.

    Leave her to stew in her shit. its a waiting game. Send cards, emails, text etc to remind the kids you are alive and well and thinking of them – keep in touch but keep the distance.

  90. Ford says:

    #82..i got ..’hes a first time dad and dosent know what hes doing’…’X said money wasnt the issue but she could earn more than me’…not bad for a useless bitch that wasnt working at the time and wanted a free ride…also..’he only wants the kids to get the dpb’…funny she got the kids and went on the dpb herself…she would invite me round for dinner and then tell her lawyer i was stalking her…lol..mental…her oldest son(sex abuser on a 6 yr old at the time) and husband(investigated by cyps)then tells her lawyer shes worried what im going to do with the kids…she claimed she was scared of me..took out a protect order and nominated a pick up and drop off point to avoid contact..she would enter drop off point if i was there stating she didnt have time for games..i f i entered when she was there i got a visit from the cops..she also claimed i hit her on 3 separate occasions..ive never been arrested for assault ever..never had a police visit…no complaints from neighbors…nothing..zilch..if i had of bashed her at least she would have been telling the truth

  91. shafted says:

    This all would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic. At one stage (at her request) and because i am so dangerous, she asked that we meet in the local supermarket car park for me to pick up the kids. (Imagine how that feels). Any way, i put the kids in the car and then go up to her car window and say “did you pack their togs”.
    She then screams (and i mean screams) that my conduct is threatening and intimidating and abusive and that my body language is aggressive. Half the saturday morning shoppers are staring at me and the other half ready to take me out. What a disgusitng way to behave.
    Hornet is bang on the money. We are provoked by the ex and CS and Fc and should we dare to react, the system sagely nods its head and says “well we got the bastard for you and protected the kids. ”
    The most sickening thing that i have ever heard in family court is this (and i have posted this before) She is doing the big “intimidated/abusive/controlling/alcohol” speech. also chucked in the fact that SHOCK HORROR. the kids had seen me naked. I pointed out that you could call me old fashioned but i preferred to shower naked as opposed to in my suit. Any way, i proved in family court that she had come into my place of work, caused an absolute scene (including telling the CEO who she had never met just what kind of an asshole i am)and KING HIT me in the ear and face. The female judge nods her head and made a finding that she had occasionally been violent towards me AT THE LOWER END OF THE SCALE. I guess you only get into the realms of serious if she had strapped me into the electric chair. Can you imagine what would happen if i went into her work and smashed her in the face with all my strength. Would they have siad-“offending at the lower end of the scale”
    What a bloody joke.

  92. Ford says:

    perhaps we should all get together and write a book about all the tactics used against men..and get it published

  93. Scott B says:

    Oh I’ve had just about every accusation you could think of thrown at me.

    It is funny when you’re accused of something and then in the next sentence they are doing the very thing they accused you of. But of course it isn’t funny when the courts go along with that.

  94. shafted says:

    Hornet-you mention the boyfirend scenario. % years on she had one for a couple of months. Kids were all secretive about it. Told the kids that i was cool with it and they did not need to hide it because i knew (attempt to relieve some of their stresses)Any way, i am then told that i have no right to inquire about her life (i didn’t and what the f…k?) and that i had made the childrne very uncomfortable.Any way, the dud had more intellect than me because he got out before he lost the house, the job, every cent he had worked hard for and nearly his sanity.
    Yep, but during that period, access wa sa lot easier. You see, some of these women treat children as bargianing chips-assets that they and they alone control. To make up for their own failings they try and control and mould the kids into a position of dependency (emotionally) so that they build up their own self worth. There is no penalty for this mind fuck-in fact it is rewarded by less access and more child support. Wrong wrong wrong.

  95. Hornet says:

    Word for word I agree as below!!!!!!!! Supported by a corrupt system

    You see, some of these women treat children as bargianing chips-assets that they and they alone control. To make up for their own failings they try and control and mould the kids into a position of dependency (emotionally) so that they build up their own self worth. There is no penalty for this mind fuck-in fact it is rewarded by less access and more child support. Wrong wrong wrong.

  96. Scott B says:

    For a system to be corrupt there must first be a system. Considering they just do what they want, when and how they want would suggest there isn’t a system. I see them more as state funded criminals.

  97. hornet says:

    BUSINESS MATE – AN INDUSTRY FOR THE FEW – PROTECTED BY THE FEW – they write the rules to help themselves.

  98. Down Under says:

    Do you think they could be using mutant clones to save on operational costs?

  99. hornet says:

    Some 16 REVIEW staff – scraped from the bottom of the professional barrel – so desperate for any work they can get – all pre – programmed to demand as much as possible in any given circumstance – go after anyone with assets Permitted to Discriminate, breach Bill of Rights and Civil Rights, be as envious and as biased as you like – because they are PROTECTED from prosecution and investigation, and lastly – they have a system which is IMPOSSIBLE to challenge or object to – so they can get away with what ever they like – that is NOT Justice – that is OPPRESSION – TOTALITARIAN Government – history is littered with despotic rules over the people….and sadly that has now arrived in NZ – We can no longer accept to have a “FAIR GO”, in the land of the long white lie.

  100. Rogered says:

    Rather than a book, I reckon we should start a movement like this http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

    Photos on the web, stories, media…

    An organised, professional group.

    But then I read about the new ‘ministry for men’s affairs’ … Can they help?

    Or do we need something else? Or should we bitch and moan and do nothing?

    I don’t see my kids anymore, too hard. I write now. I used to send emails but they were being edited and the return emails came in late at night and were obviously written by her. I would love to see them. i can only hope the girls come back when they are old enough. My cs debt has spiralled and, I kid you not, my debt would probably be close to the highest in nz. I know it is higher than anyone in Australia. There was an article about the debt there last week. Mine was higher. I hear you talk about a couple of hundred a week. Try $1000 or more. After tax. Plus interest and penalties.

    I don’t really want to spend years fighting the fight…but then, you may have heard the quote…”all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke.

    And so I am torn. Do nothing and let them prevail and destroy lives or help correct the system and help the person behind me? Do I need another project. Years of letter writing, websites, email, media, presentations…

    What do you think?

  101. Scott B says:

    If it is going to be like the occupy people, count me out.

  102. Non custodial Dad says:

    Rogered #100

    A good idea! Far too much energy put in to constant bitching (even if it justified) about women, womens wiles and vindictiveness etc. etc. etc. how hard done by people are.
    It is time to address the ISSUES in a reasoned factual and non emotive way, by concentrating on the systemic inequities and injustices in the FC and CS systems and the attitudinal disgrace exhibited by lawyers, review officers and the like. Not to mention the effect on liable parents and children in particular of decisions and procedural inflexibility and corruption. Actual cases presented logically and factually with examples of how adversely individuals are affected.
    Internet coverage the obvious vehicle. INdividuals, however well intentioned, achieve little or nothing. At war few battles are won by single soldiers!!!

  103. Rogered says:

    Scott B #101 no one is suggesting occupying anything.

    Any kind of movement would be through a committee, objectives, voting etc…

    I thought the 99 per cent website stories was a good way for people to understand what real people are going through. Is all.

  104. Scott B says:

    103 sorry it’s just whenever I think of those 99%/occupy people my first thought is nutters. No-one I know took them seriously at all. Hence my concern, the last thing we need is to not be taken seriously.

  105. Non Custodial Dad says:

    Ford # 87.

    My ex has steadfastly refused to communicate with me for the last 10 years. Told me never to contact her. In May 2011 I got a lawyer to write to her inviting her to enter into a voluntary agreement whereby I would pay her a one off lump sum (with annual inflation factors built in) as full and final payment for the following 6 years of my liability. (She isn’t on the DPB but is on a good salary of $70,000+ a year so there is no need for IRD to be involved in my support payments. Had to write to her at her place of work as I didn’t know at that time where she was living).

    I spent 35 minutes giving the lawyer the background to my situation and giving him instructions. I had to re-draft the draft letter he sent me for approval as it was semi literate (obviously not written by him!) and did not reflect what I had instructed him to offer! For that I had to pay just under $600.00. Our meeting, the draft letter, and the final letter could not have taken him more than an hour and a half. Talk about robbery!!! AND to cap it off my offer was refused by my ex by way of non reply!!! So I continue with monthly payments that will end when I am 65!! That $600.00 would have been better spent on my kids.
    I therefore empathise with you…..

  106. Ford says:

    dad..over the yrs ive refused to communicate with my x..every time a convo took place she off to her lawyer and try and manipulate stuff to her advantage..i refuse to have her anywhere near me or my house..she sets foot on my property and ill remove her by force and if she ever refuses which she did once..ill grab the bitch by the scruff of the collar and drop her in the gutter where she belongs..she wants to lay down the rules for her place..i have a few of my own and one is..dont fkn show up here

  107. hornet says:

    Looks like we have the makings of a “collective” – aimed at exposing this SHAM – problem is this – THE FIRST response will be to DISCREDIT us – and to look at ways of destroying our reputations – ( sound FAMILIAR ) this is ALWAYS the first approach by those in the wrong, who have something to hide and who dont want the TRUTH to come out.

    They will Create public perception that we are all ” nutters” bad men who dont want to pay child support – you know the drill here lads. That will be the FIRST battle.

    ( as an aside – the occupy movement – were actually correct in there protest – problem for them was the Banking cartels used there media machine to portray everyone as nutters, homeless, hopeless people – and the public bought it hook line and sinker – if you look at the facts – banking GREED – and unregulated Credit default swaps and lending to people who could never afford a mortgage – were the primary causes of the 2008 collapse – but no one was allowed to discuss that ) And then all that bad debt has been lumped onto the tax payers to pay off – wonder why everything now costs more – trace it right back to that.

    I recall a recent post here – where dishevelled looking dads protesting – were also cast in this way – public perception based on a stereo type – problem of course for most good dads = that is what you end up looking like after FC and CS have fked you over and made you homeless and unkempt. Its not that your protest is wrong or ill founded. How you look is turned against you = to discredit your message – remember that.

    So if you want to mount something, plan for this – because that will be the reaction, and the media will not help our cause – they dont work for the People – they are owned by the ones who we have a dispute with.

  108. Scott B says:

    107 The media have been told that they cannot do a story on these things. I have had many in the industry tell me so. That is the first hurdle.

  109. hornet says:

    Communication with an EX – I have for almost seven years now – only ever communicated by EMAIL or TEXT -and yet even when doing this, I am still cast as Violent, Abusive and threatening. Amazing – I guess they are told to keep shouting these accusations and one day it will come true – he will react and tell you what a C…nt you are – and they you will have proof.

    I even had my wife proof read messages and delete anything which could have been construed as threatening or abusive, but no, even with that PROOF of the written word confirming EXACTLY what I said – the MANTRA is still repeated over and over again to anyone who wants to listen.

    As for Mail – we had mail sent to the child returned to our home – with messages by the maggot – to be opened when we and if we saw the child at out home – I commented that if she continued to interferer with the childs mail, I would make a complaint to the police under the postal act – interfering with someone else’s mail is an offence, so she stopped that immediately – but yet again the family court have done nothing to curb that behavior or hold her to account.

    Just something to remember if you have problems with Postal mail getting through to your child. ( not sure if the have included emails into this act as yet )

  110. Ford says:

    #107..something i have in my favor when it comes to arguing against the system is my oldest moved in with me because she was sick and tired of her mother and my youngest is getting pissed off with her shit as well and looks like shes coming here as well

  111. hornet says:

    108 – BINGO, I was right on the money – so we need our own MEDIA System. We cannot rely on the state controlled media. There are ways to get messages to lots of people, Youtube video, Ebooks, Postal mail outs, Emails to EVERY politician flushing them out to see where they stand on this issue,

    We are in the midst of a massive shift in how media is managed and controlled – have you noticed how many of the big publishing houses are failing – because of Ebooks, and everyone reading online media – this is the way we are all getting to share stories and to see first hand how we are all being affected the same way – if we did not have the WEB, we would all be alone on this, thinking we were the only ones affected – but as you can see here with many of these posts – we all share common, legitimate concerns for a system which is NOT RIGHT.

  112. hornet says:

    FORD – if the kids are old enough – it may well be that there stories are shared to help expose the system .

    This needs to be presented collectively – by PARENTS – because both MALE and FEMALE are being effected. And by the kids who are ultimately the ones who suffer – I believe that is why the Family court is so secretive – they could not afford for some of these stories to get out. its been a closed shop for too long.

    I too have talked also to adults who were effected as children by this horrible system – in fact not long ago, I talked to a lovely lady, now married, who was the child – so destroyed by her mothers behavior – it so affected her that when she found out the truth – that dad was a great man – she now hates her mother and never talks to her for what she did to a good man. Thats how much damage was done.

  113. Ford says:

    hornet…when i communicated with my x she screamed abuse..when i refused to talk to her she screamed silence was a form of abuse as well..in the last 8-10 yrs she has lived not much more than a km away in any direction and i will to my dying day never utter another word to her other than ‘fck off’

  114. hornet says:

    #106 Ford – I have a trespass order on my ex – dont want her anywhere near my home of family. isnt that incredible, I had to get an order to keep her mental arse away from my family. And yet the family court feel she is a capable primary care parent……….

  115. hornet says:

    113 – yep mate Im on the same page – I have no time for the lying bitch and I will never forgive her for the deliberate harm she has caused to an innocent child. Especially when it was all so unnecessary.

  116. hornet says:

    I attended a dinner recently with many from the media present, and I got to talking to an INDEPENDENT writer -and he said – He is so happy to be an independent – he can write what he likes and is not told what he can and cant say – he then went on to say – everyone else in the room is so restricted as to what they can say, what questions they can ask, and what they can report – talk about a jack up.

  117. Down Under says:

    I met a Scotsman once who told me how they used to deal with women like that back home in his wee village by the sea. They used to take them down to the beach at low tide and tie them up in the seaweed and if someone wanted to take responsibility for that person they could go and untie them – but it was on their shoulders if they did – otherwise they stayed there to be consumed by the rising tide.
    In New Zealand the state lets women keep their children so they can be conveniently ignored. Reducing the child to the level of a baby pacifier – the perfect dummy for the sick woman.

  118. Scott B says:

    Did you like the presents I sent you? You didn’t send me anything. I sent you a **** and a **** and a *****, didn’t you get them? Mummy gave me those. No I sent you those. NO, MUMMY GAVE THEM TO ME!!!!!!!!!

    I’m then told by my ex to stop lying! She really expects me to suddenly say “Oh yes I never sent anything, I am lying!” Talk about mental.

    Always get any parcel you send tracked and take photos of the presents you send.

  119. Scott B says:

    I agree. It must be a united front from both men and women. There must be no anger or gaps in the issues we present.

  120. shafted says:

    Yep Hornet-i too communicate only by email and text, and whatver and however innocuously i write, it is turned into replies such as ” i will not be bullied” and “you can no longer control me” Control and abuse, as far as i can see, amounts to disagreeing with her or insisiting on my rights under the parenting order. Like Hornet, the way she uses the kids is to promote alternative fun filled activities and then wheel me on as the bad guy who is putting up a barrier to the enjoyment of these activites.There is no desire on her part to jointly manage parenting issues (such as my daugters weight) and suggestions that there is a problem are met with replies like “it must be the food you are feeding her (for my 2 days a fortnight) and perhaps a lack of exercise at your place. So there you have it-a party unable to put the intrests of the child first. Would rather place good parenting in second place to an opportunity to stick it up me.
    The children are encouraged (subliminaly) to disrespect me and treat me as an object worthy of derision only. They are encouraged to tell all manner of tails regarding time at our place. During their cloying needy phone calls with mummy (written into parenting order) they are INTERROGATED about their time with dad, and oftentimes this results in INCOMING criticising me and my partner.
    Such behaviours tempt one into absurd and out of character behaviour, like taping phone calls and listening in but i will not stoop to her level. In court, she described a time when i apparently REFUSED (this was some years ago)to go to parent teacher interviews because i don’t give a f…k about the kids. I was able to produce a taped phone call that clearly identified that it was her suggested presence at the interviews that stopped me from going (during MY evening with them). The court did not even admonish her for her lies and merely moved on to listening to the next description of why i am such a c…t. I was accused of doing no homework with the kids and i suggested by affidavit that she bring the children’s homework books to court, as they would show my initials oon every evening i have them, and handwritten corrections to their homework. No homework books were brought in.
    No mention of that fact in court-just a willingness to listen to the next accusation and reasons that i am a c…t.
    I too have done the trespass order thing, and that resulted in her barging my door down (she is a strong gal), assaulting me in the presence of a friend, and her being arrested by the police when the neighbours called. The outcome was an hour at the police station and a mild telling off. Prior to the police arriving, i physically restrained her due to being punched in the face. The restraint involved holding her forearms so she could not swing. She had bruises from my restraint. She and a bra burning friend took photos of these bruises and produced them in court as evidence of my violent nature. Fortunately the judge accepted my explanation-no admonishment for embellishment. Her conduct was deemed to be a none issue in court because no charges were laid. At that time, she had a MAF and threatening to kill charge against me (i was discharged without conviction ultimately)yet, despite having not been to court at that stage, i was deemed to clearly have an anger problem and required supervision to see the children.
    JOKE

  121. Scott B says:

    I have no communication with my ex, at all. I learned that there was no point. Everything I did or said or suggested was controlling/bullying/abusive etc etc. My life has been much better since all communication was cut.

  122. MurrayBacon says:

    Men’s Health Australia )Greg Andresen) have celebrated International Men’s Day.

    There is a lot of material to work through…..

    Talk About Men: International Men’s Day Masculinity Debate now online | YouTube video | SoundCloud audio

    The International Men’s Day Masculinity Debate, presented by Talk About Men, was a wonderful evening full of stimulation discussions.

    The event is now online at the following locations:

    You can listen to the entire unedited audio of the event on Soundcloud at

    https://soundcloud.com/greg-andresen-947415028/talk-about-men-international-mens-day-masculinity-debate-2015-sydney

    Pete Nicholls’ introduction (Dads in Distress) is up as a YouTube video at https://youtu.be/svotrFdUc1o.

    Nic Tovey’s talk (Soulcraft) is up as a YouTube video at https://youtu.be/HcMj9IONpKc.

    Greg Andresen’s talk (One in Three Campaign) is up as a YouTube video at https://youtu.be/5nDx_erUDdU.

    You can also read a transcript at http://www.oneinthree.com.au/news/2015/11/19/talk-about-men-international-mens-day-masculinity-debate.html.

    Tanveer Ahmed’s talk (psychiatrist, author and local politician) is up as a YouTube video at https://youtu.be/H3-Idfi_N5M.

    Cheers,

    Greg

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