Can the mother take my 14 year old to live in Canada without my consent
Hi All,
I live in Australia but the mother of my children lives in NZ and is in custody of 2 of my children. Recently she has applied to the Family Court to take my 14 year old daughter to Canada whilst at the same time trying to have my guardian rights removed so I won’t have a say in the matter.
I am currently waiting to hear what the Court has to say about my application for variation of parenting order which I’m doing in an effort to get my daughter to visit me in Oz during school holidays. That’s a separate issue however and I haven’t received a hearing date or any feedback from the Court yet. She has told the Court that she has to move to Canada because she sees no future for her or my daughter in NZ. That’s total BS really but I won’t go into that because it’s a long story.
The mother was born in Canada so can claim Canadian citizenship and I believe the kids inherit this status. There is to be a review re her application in 2 weeks and the Court will then decide to proceed with it. I have a good record as far as the Court is concerned so it’s not as though I am an abusive parent/ex spouse or anything like that. So, the main thing I need to know is can she do this without my consent or will she get blocked at the airport if she tries it,and would the FC just tell her it’s a no go anyway ? My main objections are that she is an incompetent parent (lots of proof re this from CYF, MOE etc) and that if she is taken to Canada she will probably go to ground and I will never see my daughter again. Any ideas???
She could leave tomorrow if you don’t have a Non Removal Order in place already.
An Auckland Father went through a similar case about 5 years ago. He had an Application in to vary the Access he had. He was attempting to get more time with his child. His ex put in an Application to take the Child to Canada some months later. When he eventually got to Court, his Application wasn’t even mentioned and hers was granted. She was on a plane with their child within less than a week of the Hearing. The kindly Judge did rule that the Child Support he was supposed to pay could be used to pay for the Father’s air tickets to visit his child in Canada.
From memory, he visited once and any time he got with his child was grudgingly given. A couple of months later he committed suicide. Does the Judge care ? Nah ….
Comment by golfa — Mon 18th November 2013 @ 6:31 pm
What’s happening to the other child?
Comment by Downunder — Mon 18th November 2013 @ 6:45 pm
Hi Golfa, that’s a very sad story and I sort of know how the poor guy feels. My concern is that the FC judges don’t really give a stuff as far as fathers and their access to their children is concerned. I will arrange that Non Removal Order ASAP. Thanks mate
Comment by Had_Enough — Mon 18th November 2013 @ 6:54 pm
Hi Downunder,
The other child is 18 and is old enough to make his own decisions regardless of what I think so it’s really more about my daughter than my son. What really concerns me though is that the judges always go with what the child wants whether the child is under duress, making poorly informed decisions or just plain duped by misinformation from the mother as in this case. So, all she has to do is say “yes judge I want to go to Canada with my mother to live” , and it will get rubber stamped.
Comment by Had_Enough — Mon 18th November 2013 @ 7:11 pm
#3. Just be aware that if the Judge rules that she can leave with your child to move to Canada, the Judge will also rule that the Non Removal Order is lifted. It will however stop her leaving in the interim.
One other thing. I recall that the Judge ruled against my friend because his ex wife said she had a really great job offer in Canada. So I suggest that unless you ex has a great job offer or a better “future”, you may want to raise that perhaps she won’t be better off in Canada ?
Comment by golfa — Mon 18th November 2013 @ 7:13 pm
i feel for ya, it not right how the man doesn’t get treated fairly , the father looses and so do the guys the system is messed up
Comment by Aaron Bell — Mon 18th November 2013 @ 7:36 pm
These cases annoy me because, “Yes, you can force women and children to live in New Zealand when you live in another country”. But should you be able to do this?
Single mothers have no family support in New Zealand when they aren’t born here and their family lives back in their home country.
They and their families are mortgaging homes from overseas, trying desperately to be free from constraints while the fathers can move freely around the world.
I personally don’t think anyone overseas should be forcing other overseas people to live in New Zealand. If you want your children to be raised in New Zealand, then, IMO, you should be here to raise them while access to extended family should be a priority in the best interest of children.
Comment by Julie — Wed 20th November 2013 @ 8:37 pm
Oh those poor women! It’s all about them the poor dears!
Comment by Scott B — Wed 20th November 2013 @ 9:35 pm
Funnee Scott.
I would be saying the same if a woman forced a man to live in a foreign country while she lived overseas under the same circumstances or similar.
It’s just one of those situations that is now common, and I think it’s cruel and against human rights.
But in saying that, this case looks to be complicated and the courts/cyf will sort something out. I hope his child isn’t badly abused while in the care of her mother and away from her father.
Comment by Julie — Wed 20th November 2013 @ 10:24 pm
That’s the difficulty with giving women excessive rights, they revert to tribalism.
Comment by Downunder — Thu 21st November 2013 @ 8:48 am
Perhaps. It’s difficult to find a balance. One minute the protection orders are going through too easily, and the next the control orders are going through too quickly.
Oh boy, oh girl, what a mess.
Comment by Julie — Thu 21st November 2013 @ 10:41 am
While my kids are with me, Will I need a consent from my ex-wife to take my kids off to ausi or any other country for a holiday for a week or so? There is not any non-removal order in place i suppose? How do I find if there is a “Non remmoval order in place”? Don’t want to be stopped at the border before boarding a flight. Help please!!
Comment by kumar — Thu 21st November 2013 @ 10:56 am
Kumar,
Applying for a passport in kids name is usual first test of presence of orders. Internal Affairs won’t issue passport if there are orders with them.
However I would argue that overseas travel is a guardianship issue and the other guardians should be informed of proposed travel plans. Just like elective surgery, ask first before you act unilaterally.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Thu 21st November 2013 @ 11:20 am
The ‘non removal orders’ aren’t just about keeping kids in a country. They can’t go on school camps if the camp is outside the town or city they are forced to live in, nor family events nor family holidays.
Prisoners in jail for abusing their ex and kids have no removal orders so the kids can’t be moved to another town or city. The other parent won’t leave them because they know they’ll be abused. Even men’s and women’s refuges can’t do anything because they are legal documents.
I think judges should be looking at each case a lot more carefully than they are.
Comment by Julie — Thu 21st November 2013 @ 12:57 pm
The attempt to remove you as a guardian is BS. That is extremely unlikely to succeed. It is only there so that the judge can say oh yes, take the children to Canada but look I’m a nice guy I didn’t remove your guardianship. Complete BS!
You should use the application to remove your as a guardian as additional proof of the intentions of the mother to remove you from having any influence and relationship with the child. and that is the true reason for the application to relocate to Canada.
I suggest that you take the approach of saying almost nothing until you get to court. Then only once at a court hearing, produce vast volumes of evidence that the mother and the court will not protect the child’s relationship with yourself.
Consider a counter application for custody of the child going to you so that the child will be at least guaranteed to have an ongoing relationship with both parents.
to be honest at the end of the day the FC of New Zealand will chew up as much of your money and energy that it can and then screw your relationship with your child anyway. I strongly suggest a strategy that costs your ex an arm and a leg to pursue yet costs you very little at all.
Comment by Vman — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 1:27 pm
If relocation outside of NZ is agreed be wary. I once was McKenzie Friend for a chap where mum claimed no NZ links and depression and great job offer and family support overseas. Judge allowed relocation but we were successful in having her relocation delayed 18 months for Dad to bond with his son. We also got a concession that jurisdiction remained in NZ.
As soon as she left NZ she immediately applied in overseas jurisdiction and you guessed it the NZ Court and L4C were not interested in maintaining their decision and costs for Dad were huge paying for lawyers in a foreign language environment and a completely different jurisdiction and tens of thousands of dollars of travel costs for Dad each year. Only upside was no Child Support in NZ as mum claimed her great job offer that paternal grandfather had organised in overseas country. Surprise, surprise that job disappeared as soon as mum left NZ mum and child live in poor circumstances overseas and Dad spends more on contact than if he were paying CS here.
When it comes to changing jurisdiction don’t trust them.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 1:41 pm
It is a nonsense to claim jurisdiction once the child has lawfully relocated to another country anyway. I bet it was done without even a bond being required.
That is yet another example of NZ FC judges dishing out platitudes to a father and expecting people to believe the FC judge was simply incompetent. Of course the FC judge was washing his hands of the issue and knew it.
Comment by Vman — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 1:49 pm
Julie your assumptions may be valid in some cases but you are very wide of the mark here. The mother has defied every Parenting order that the Court handed down and is certainly not a victim. She blocked my access to the children while I was in NZ and moved to a different city which made it even easier for her to block my access. I moved to Australia because I couldn’t find work in NZ after losing my job and seeing I couldn’t see my kids in NZ anyway it seemed to make sense at the time. Since I have been here I have tried to arrange trips to NZ so I could visit the kids and have also offered to pay for their airfares over here. NOT ALL WOMEN ARE VICTIMS JULIE AND NOT ALL MEN ARE SELFISH DEAD BEAT DADS WHO ARE AVOIDING THEIR PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES SO GET OFF YOUR WOMAN AS VICTIM BANDWAGON. I have had custody of 2 of my 3 kids for much of the time since the separation and would die for my kids. DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS WHEN YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES JULIE!!!
Comment by Had_Enough — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 8:18 pm
Julie is confusing a non-removal order which is very restrictive with a CAPS order which stops a child being taken out of the country. Two very different things.
Comment by Downunder — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 8:32 pm
Regardless of Julie’s confusion I don’t feel my daughter should be taken to Canada to live because her mother’s motivation is to be able to escape the NZ authorities and peddle her “I’m a poor innocent victim” story overseas where the authorities won’t be aware of her bullshit. At least CYF and the NZ Ministry of Ed are able to monitor her in NZ but if she goes to Canada she will disappear into the Edmonton wilderness and this will not be a safe situation for my daughter! I’m quite happy for her to visit Canada, in fact I would encourage it because it will broaden her horizons somewhat. It’s the permanent relocating,vanishing and evading the authorities part I don’t like! Basically she’s crapped in her own nest and is looking for a fresh nest
Comment by Had_Enough — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 8:54 pm
And I am picking she is about to start year 10 at High School. That’s a big change for a student to change country and schools at that stage of her education.
Comment by Downunder — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 9:14 pm
You hit the nail square on the head Downunder. My daughter is gifted and as we all know that term doesn’t only mean very smart, which she certainly is. But she is a very sensitive shy kid and I believe the move will be devastating for her. She really needs stability and security and I believe this would be enhanced by having both parents in her life, not just one which is how her mother has always wanted it.
Comment by Had_Enough — Fri 22nd November 2013 @ 10:54 pm
Had Enough – So if this vile woman has already breached or defied every court order – have you not by now realized the system is a sham and is not going to help you in any way?
Not trying to be negative – just trying to discuss a fact – this is the same problem we all face – the system we go to for help is NOT HELPING in any way at all. Having been down this track myself – my view is the system is complicit in deliberately ensuring you are deprived time with your child – no matter how good you are – it matters not. IF they can destroy your character and integrity along the way that just helps them manage you out of the picture.
So parents – what are you going to do about it? Are we all going to sit back and watch good parent after good parent be destroyed by a system which is a complete and deliberate failure – sit back and watch a system which is allowing kids to be harmed with impunity.
Had enough – for what it is worth – WALK AWAY – you will lose your soul, your money and your life wasting more time trying to stop something the system will simply facilitate in the end. You have to come to terms with that reality. The system IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU IN ANYWAY. Refusing to enforce Court orders you already have in place is evidence of this.
I recently sent my daughter a letter – as we went through the last defined vestiges of parental alienation – I sent this letter direct to the school so the mother would not intercept it – in this letter I detailed my position, I shared my values and I gave the child an indication as to what my wife and I had been subjected to for almost ten years – parental alienation – I sent the child the list of 24 points which define this accepted practice and links to web sites for the child to explore the concern – I felt that was important because this issue directly effects the child – parental alienation is a concern the lawyers know about – but will DO NOTHING to prevent – because there business hinges on this continuing and keeping conflict alive.
That is the issue PARENTS need to expose, and demand change. This is the one point parents need to UNITE on.
Currently the system is NOT helping the good parent. Not enforcing your rights to parent and NOT protecting children.
To make matters worse – if you try – I bet you all you will not get any positive response – trying complaining to the Human rights commission or the Ombudsman – they will refuse to take a complaint – been there done that. The system is very well protected.
Its only when you lose your rights ( and what bigger right is there – being a parent ) once that right is taken away from you and you try and seek help – do you realize the system is never going to help you…..and thats a very distasteful situation to be in…………bad things happen when good people do nothing……..
Comment by hornet — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 6:58 am
I faced a similar situation some years back with one of my children, although it wasn’t about moving countries, it was simply which high school the child ‘should’ go to.
I fought hard for the school that I believed would best suit that child.
It eventually transpired that the real objection to this school was that the mother didn’t know any parents at this school but knew some parents at another school.
In the end the child did go to the school (I preferred on the child’s behalf) based on an agreement that I would fund the entire cost of the schooling from then on, but following this agreement she actively destroyed the child’s education, to spite me, which in the end didn’t last past year 10.
Reading into the story you’re telling here Had_Enough, it sounds like similar behaviour from the mother – It’s all about me.
Comment by Downunder — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 8:15 am
Hmmm, sad but true. The Court certainly has no interest in enabling our kids to spend time with their fathers. One thing I have noticed in my 2 sons is a very cynical and distrustful attitude towards women. They’re both good looking boys and attract lots of girls. They don’t abuse women but don’t really respect them either and I believe this is a result of them witnessing the appalling way their mother has treated me over the years. I don’t think this bodes well for the coming generations but the Family Court and the abusive women they support will reap what they sow and it will be a very hateful and violent harvest I’m afraid. Perhaps that is what it will take to redress the current imbalance in gender equality. Maybe, as a result of the inevitable carnage wrought against women by boys who have missed out on paternal guidance, the white guilt ridden men and women on the benches will realise that fathers are important. How do such stupid people become judges? Mind you I guess any idiot can swallow a few books on statutes and precedents and become a lawyer and eventually a judge. Do they know nothing of human history and sociology and psychology? A rhetorical question of course.
Believe it or not she’s not only asking the judge to remove me as a legal guardian but is also asking that I be made to pay Chils Support once she moves to Canada. I am clinging to a small shred of hope that she will keep my daughter in NZ once she learns that I can’t be forced to pay her CS while she is in a country with no reciprocal agreement. I am also hoping that the judge may have the perception (unlikely) to see how barking mad she is and temper his views with the knowledge that she is not mentally competent.
Comment by Had_Enough — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 11:39 am
My biggest fear is that my daughter will become a victim of her mothers madness, which is already happening due to her learned attitudes, but there could be some very negative consequences for an attractive young 14 year old girl who is kept out of school and allowed to spend all day on the Internet. Of course the Court doesn’t give a F@@@ about that either!!
Comment by Had_Enough — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 11:39 am
had Enough – so as we learn this horrible lesson – what do we do about it – the entire system is one big conflict of interest – for the benefit of lawyers and their industry alone. That is the lesson one learns after years trying to do the right thing, only to wake up one day and realize the right thing is pointless. I am now of the belief the system is deliberately designed to ensure that CONFLICT between parents is everlasting, that children are destroyed as a consequence, end up as victims and dependent on the state for the rest of their lives – which of course makes them easy to control, emotionally destroyed and usually unable to ever get a job or function normally in society – the perfect candidate for social control and manipulation into their adult lives – ALL Family values have been removed, one parent initially and then ultimately both parents become the enemy of the child that has not been allowed to have a healthy, grounded relationship with BOTH parents – which they should be able to – even when parents are living apart. We certainly do not see the system facilitating good parental relationships at any level.
its interesting in my latest complaint to the ombudsman – they are more interested in discussing reasons why they CAN NOT investigate, and looking to delay having to investigate at every opportunity – versus being positive – admitting – hey there is a big problem here which cuts at the core of their very existence – “fairness” and the right to due process = which clearly needs fixing – immediately – but of course they are NOT at all interested in helping find solutions to any of these concerns – because then they would have to admit there was actually a problem which needed fixing – admit some liability and accountability – so all we see is – Deny, refuse to take a complaint, and hope the parent gives up and the complaint falls outside the limited ONE year they allow to look into a complaint – I am told to EXHAUST every avenue before they will investigate – this is the new stipulation – go to the moon and back in search for answers before we will even consider helping you, they hope by then your time will be up – and they wont have to investigate as per the time constraints in the legislation – can you see the game we are being played here…..
had enough – the reality is this – when a child is only permitted time with one parent = the child will only be like that parent and the values – good or bad which that sole parent imparts on the child – so again you have answered your own question when you say she is becoming more and more like the mother – don’t worry about it, the child is already gone…….
Comment by hornet — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 1:44 pm
Well she was gone at the age of 7, I think, but that doesn’t mean I won’t try and impart a reasonable set of values on to her if I get the opportunity. One of the worst things the Court does to promote the estrangement of non custodial father’s is the “let the child decide” approach. Kids and young teenagers aren’t capable of making an informed decision as to whether they want to spend time with the non custodial parent or not when they are under duress and live in a state of fear and anxiety as my daughter does. It’s like the police asking a hostage to say negative things about their captor and walk toward them when he has a gun to her head and is threatening to use it on her. But, what else can we expect from such a lazy and PC FC system. In my opinion, if the non custodial parent has no history of abuse toward the child, access visits should be compulsory and to make nasty malicious mothers comply they should have to forego a portion of their CS payment if they stop an access visit for no good reason. With some mothers (definitely the case with my ex) they will only comply with Parenting Orders if there is a financial penalty. The Court is so apathetic that they wouldn’t even enforce an access visit when I got a warrant from the Court to enforce it. It was a special occasion, was my weekend for access, and I wanted my son and daughter to be there as did they. Oh yeah and I can hear the chorus of PC hand wringers out there saying “the child will resent you if forced to see you” They resent their parents for stopping them riding their bikes without helmets, sticking forks into power sockets and playing with knives to.. The child doesn’t always know what is best for it which should be obvious to anyone who has raised a child but AGAIN the Family Court is not aware of this simple fact.. IDIOTS!!!
Comment by Had_Enough — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 4:28 pm
Mate it is NOT GOING to happen until the system is forced into a corner and made to investigate this…..I lost my daughter at 2 years, she will soon be 13 next year and I have not seen her for a year and a half – what options do you have when the system will not even enforce their own COURT ORDERS for time with your own child – that you have diligently obtained at huge cost and personal sacrifice ….?????
Where do you go when the very ombudsman will NOT investigate a complaint which cuts to the core of their existence – FAIRNESS for all – NOT fairness for some and not others – like lets protect the current Review RACKET at the expense of good parents and kids…..thats what they should have said – least they would be honest…….not deceitful………
We – my wife and I – married for ten years – have never been in any trouble, I have kept my cool and not reacted to the intense provocation – sometimes I think it would have been easier if I had – I would have felt better for it personally – Even by NOT reacting and doing everything right we are still on the wrong side of the ledger……so im not sure if that was a benefit ….????
Watch the video below from a great man……Howard ZINN………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx6QQOn4dQE
Matt Damon recently read Howard ZINNS speech of 1970 – and how relevant is this today??
http://vimeo.com/48834336
Are we at this time in NZ history, where the establishment needs a wake up call to force them to do something??? Too many good parents are being hammered, forced to leave this country because of oppressive, and draconian systems which are NOT protecting the good people. They are NOT protecting the children and they are NOT enforcing Due Process requirements on their own……….
Comment by hornet — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 4:38 pm
had enough – how many more of us have to go through this sham – same same same – Your rights to parent are NOT BEING enforced, your childs right to protection from harm is NOT BEING enforced…….how many more good parents have to go through this same shit before there is change????
Comment by hornet — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 4:42 pm
Hey Hornet I think “Enforced” is the magic word mate. A good parent will never need to have an Order enforced because he or she will comply unless the other parent is a threat to the children’s safety. Unfortunately a bad parent will have their bad parenting perpetuated if the Court is too lame to enforce its own orders which is what has happened in your case, in my case and in the case of thousands of other good fathers in NZ. The FC’s main concern should be to try and keep both parents actively involved with their children. It seems really clear to me that they see their role as a mechanism to keep families apart by their bias towards the mother’s views regardless of whether she abide by their Orders or not. It’s a farce but we all know that I guess. What can we do about it? Well us men tend to shut up and take it don’t we. Women are renowned for talking a lot and networking with each other and that’s how they influence the law makers. Maybe we could learn from that and become more politically active. AND we need to be men and be proud of being masculine. It’s this ridiculous notion that we need to be ashamed of our maleness that has caused all this white knight male guilt in the first place. We have this ridiculous white ribbon day where these emasculated hand wringing white knights come out and tell us what beasts us men are. We need an alternative campaign (and I’m aware that one exists on this site and all strength to it) where we highlight anti male/anti child policies and the plight of men who are suffering emotional abuse from their ex spouses with a complicit white knight court that’s driving men to despair and sometimes suicide!
Comment by Had_Enough — Sat 23rd November 2013 @ 10:22 pm
The only reason MEN have been persecuted for so long in the past – is because we were once by majority – the PRIMARY breadwinners – We earned the “money” – next year you will see a massive change away from this – BOTH PARENTS will be under the gun……to PAY “MONEY” Your TIME and or PROPERTY ( Which is the Actual Value of MONEY – NOT $$ currency which is worthless ) to SUPPORT this MASSIVE ARTIFICIALLY created DEBT……
Have you noticed the cultural shift – BOTH PARENTS now have to work to earn the same money that ONE PARENT used to bring in to support a family –
If you have NO JOB, NO PROPERTY and NO Kids are you are single – you have nothing to fear – YET although massive student loans and forced superannuation contributions will help impoverish you before you get to old age ……..
If you are married, have property, earn plenty, have kids – you will then be forced into “Divorce” – Divided, devalued, destroyed, DIVORCED – separation made EASY – No fault divorce, so long as you do SEPARATE – DIVIDED you are then mine……to impoverish, control and destroy – deliberately. Have I missed anything……
And we wonder why so many good people ( parents ) are running away from NZ in such high numbers – Excellent parents, good people, good skills, good businesses – see ya….would not want to be ya as they head offshore….can we blame them????
Comment by hornet — Sun 24th November 2013 @ 9:33 am