- promoting a clearer understanding of men's experience -


MENZ.org.nz Logo First visit to MENZ.org.nz? Here's our introduction page.
MENZ ISSUES

MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Tue 24th December 2013

Coping with Christmas when you are divorced or separated

Filed under: General — Lukenz @ 9:24 am

I am thinking of the men and children who are facing Christmas day as separated or divorced. More so if it’s your first. It can be daunting and awkward and ofden nasty.

My heartfelt sorrow and support to all those in this position. All I can say is treat the matter as a transitional period of your life and start making plans to change the situation in the future.

There are many in this site who can provide advice on how to get through.

I found this on a UK site that has suggestions on how to cope and do things.

http://familylives.org.uk/advice/divorce-and-separation/coping-with-holidays/coping-with-christmas-when-your-divorced-or-separated/

71 Responses to “Coping with Christmas when you are divorced or separated”

  1. kumar says:

    Thanks. Really helps.

  2. Sane in an insane world says:

    thanks lukenz but nothing will really ease the trauma of an insane mother holding my kids hostage and preventing any communications with my kids for years without me ever harming her or them.
    The very worst part is that corrupt sadistic NZ Family Court Judges like Judge PR Grace, Judge Walsh and even a female judge Ullrich from Wellington Region have been agreeing with her paranoid wishes every step of the way.
    I am not even allowed to send them a Christmas card. It is obvious who is sick in the head!
    Every day is hell. I would rather my limbs were cut off. Nelson Mandela and Jesus had it easy.

  3. Allan Harvey says:

    Sane I am happy to assist with Wellington Family Court matters.
    Certainly a better solution to Golfa’s story above.
    Allan.harvey@xtra.co.nz

  4. triassic says:

    Sane, your pain comes from many emotions. Some will be from sadness in the separation from your children, which after all, are a part of you and their pain becomes your pain. Some will also be from the sense of helplessness you are experiencing in dealing with the family court. As a citizen and a father you did of course expect the system to value your status as a parent to your children. What you have experienced is the reality that you hold little value to the Crown apart from your ability to pay money so they do not. Always remember that the FC is not there for you OR your children. It was created and performs wel in the sole duty of giving women what they want.

    Up till now you rightly have placed great value on protecting your children/Child from both a demented mother and a dysfunctional Family Court. Unfortunately you are burning up massive energy that will give you little return. You mention the pain of Jesus and Mandela as pain bearers. To read about greater sufferers can I suggest you read the book, “Man’s Search For Meaning” by Viktor Frankel. This Jewish psychologist survived the Nazi concentration camps and focuses on how we can overcome losing our old meaning for life and creating a new one.

    Mate, when you separated from your partner you lost your mojo. You need to get it back without depending on the outcome of the FC. Go down that road by all means with Allan Harvey’s help but please read the book and you will understand why you are in such pain and the only real way out. Good Luck.

  5. Julie says:

    Triassic, I am under the impression emotions also lead to blame and hate, not that everyone who blames ends up hating, I assume.

    Did you know women were planning to protest against the men protesting outside judges, etc homes? We put a stop it by helping women the same way men were being helped and surprisingly the men’s lawyers were even unaware of what goes on in the cases that don’t end up in front of them. One said, “It’s men like these that make if difficult for [our] men”.

    IMO….

    If two people are reacting to each other and go the the Family Court to resolve the reactions (fuelled by fear) then someone wins and someone loses. Those reactions start from the get-go and others around them see the emotions and judge accordingly. Sometimes it’s in the man’s favour, sometimes it’s in the women’s favour and sometimes it jumps between and back and forward. Ie, one minute dad is favoured, the next mum, the next dad, the next mum, and on and on we go. Probably professionals reacting to reactions, lol.

    The Family Court changes involve wrap around services. I don’t know how many places have a separate court for domestic violence, while my area does. I don’t know if all courts are asking parents to write in diaries to keep the other parent informed but mine does, I don’t know how many people are getting back together since the government changed the counselling to 3 sessions of marriage counselling rather than 6 sessions to help them arrange parenting orders without going to court. What I do know is that we have lost a valuable resource and that means more money for lawyers. Perhaps wrap around services will help with parenting orders and making shared parenting work.

    I am aware psychologists are expecting women to have photos of their exes in their homes for the children to see dad while they say dad is to do the same. I am aware the diaries are looking one sided but then I haven’t heard from dads with the least amount of dad-to-day care. I am aware we will soon have a separate path for cases involving complaints about parents being late 5 minutes to drop off children and more. I am aware who ever earns the most is having to pay for airfares between the North and South island and it’s not only men paying.

    I also know families using the Family Court are considered ‘High Risk’ families which is a concern. With due respect to your long standing help men, I wonder how quickly blame should be promoted?

    What is mojo? Is that ego?

  6. golfa says:

    #2 “women were planning to protest against the men protesting outside judges, etc homes”? Are you kidding me ? That is the most pathetic thing I’ve EVER heard. I’d have loved to have seen their placards … what would they have said ? “I’m here protesting about the protest” ? “Down with the protesters!” “Those men aren’t the real protesters, we are !”
    Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

  7. triassic says:

    Julie, Judges were once Lawyers and Lawyers have to pass mandatory papers in the early years of their degree where they study a biased view on social issues propagated by feminist dogma. This load of trollop is bought hook line and sinker by a lot of lawyers and effects them for a life time. If a woman ever gets a tough time in the FC it is purely due to collateral damage. Some women cant play the victim card and Judges insist they do or pay the price.

    Put succinctly…..the Family Court is full of lawyers and judges who NEVER have the best interests of the child at heart because:

    1. They do the job just for the money.

    2. They work for their Client’s best interests if they represent either parent.

    3. Counsel for Child is a political beast. They play the game to please the system in order to remain on the gravy train.

    4. Judges only judge the character of the mother. If the mother is NOT acting like a man, (accepting responsibility for her decisions and actions) then she is the best parent to go with.

    I have been involved with the family court since 1992 and wasted a good portion of my life thinking it could work for me and my desire to father my children. The truth is that it never will because it is a sick regime run by ignoramuses. I am highly embarrassed that I ever put my faith in the system and at one time respected the court and those that operate in it. Those that do risk paying a high price.

    Oh…FYI your MoJo, in African American hoodoo belief, is an amulet that gives you the essence of life or sexual potency. Without it we cease to have meaning beyond putting on makeup and shopping. Ask Austin Powers he will tell you more……Groovy man!!

  8. Mits says:

    I’d love to know where this femily caught is that favours both sides as in
    Sometimes it’s in the man’s favour, sometimes it’s in the women’s favour and sometimes it jumps between and back and forward. Ie, one minute dad is favoured, the next mum, the next dad, the next mum, and on and on we go.
    This didnt happen in my experience or in the experience of other fathers I have met while going through this process.
    The one universal truth appears to be the shattering of any illusion of justice or fair play in the femily caught and being entirely shafted and watching your children get the short end of the stick as the caught bends over backwards to accomodate the mother.
    I found when I was going through the worst of it some men who hadn’t experienced Femily caught would suggest that somehow I had brought it on myself, theres no smoke without fire sort of thing. Or they would tell me to man up and not take this sort of shit and that they wouldnt put up with it if they were in my shoes. (sadly some of these men have since come to me years later and now they are in the grips of this institution they now realise what I went through. I dont blame them as I used to be one of those blind fools who trusted the system would do right.) How do you get the info across to people who havnt experienced this. There are none so blind as them who will not see.
    Men who had experience would usually shake their heads resignedly then basically tell me I was up shit creek without a paddle or even a canoe. I was so naieve back then and still trusted and respected the judicial system thinking they would help sort the mess the ex was making out.
    Dont worry those illusions are now gone and as Ive said before I now see the femily caught as a circus with the judge being the chief clown.
    I see from reading others stories on sites like this or talking to them that it is so biast against men. But it always astounds me when people try to defend it as being neutral. What a crock
    Mits

  9. Julie says:

    #2 “women were planning to protest against the men protesting outside judges, etc homes”? Are you kidding me ? That is the most pathetic thing I’ve EVER heard. I’d have loved to have seen their placards … what would they have said ? “I’m here protesting about the protest” ? “Down with the protesters!” “Those men aren’t the real protesters, we are !”
    Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

    I find it humorous that you ask, “What would they have said?” and then before waiting for an answer, you’ve judged the action ‘pathetic’. There’s a lot of people who do life this way in New Zealand.

    What I got from the experience (I do life differently) is that it’s best to pay a higher hourly rate towards lawyer fees if that means a more experienced lawyer. Some of the cases are quite bad so you can’t just work them like a ‘tit for tat’ paper trail. I also started learning about judges in other regions.

  10. Julie says:

    Mits, I need to break your comment down bit by bit to give a worthy comment back.

    I’d love to know where this femily caught is that favours both sides as in
    Sometimes it’s in the man’s favour, sometimes it’s in the women’s favour and sometimes it jumps between and back and forward. Ie, one minute dad is favoured, the next mum, the next dad, the next mum, and on and on we go.
    This didn’t happen in my experience or in the experience of other fathers I have met while going through this process

    .

    It happens in CYF cases too. I have seen the lawyer appointed to represent children swap and change sides as they are given information from the 2 side’s lawyers and judges do it also. In one case a father went from defending himself on numerous domestic violence charges to having the judge call in security to constrain the mother and her mother while they put the children in his vehicle. Psychologist reports can go either way depending on their own thoughts and what they are taught in the day, from my experience with cases. But then I have first-hand knowledge of CYF saying, “We have our own Psychologists who will make a report based on what we say” and I’ve seen reports being given over the phone by Psychologists without them ever meeting the family members.

    The one universal truth appears to be the shattering of any illusion of justice or fair play in the femily caught and being entirely shafted and watching your children get the short end of the stick as the caught bends over backwards to accomodate the mother.

    I’ve read a lot of thesis from all over the world saying we (humans) have changed from traditional roles as well as comment on the Family Court being slow to adjust. Yet outside of study and research, I see there’s still New Zealanders who think raising children is a woman’s job (unpaid and only selectively recognised as a job, lol) while immigrants bring their culture here and not many are equal or ahead of NZ when it comes to change, from my experience. I have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve you and your experience. I surely see it myself in cases.

    I found when I was going through the worst of it some men who hadn’t experienced Femily caught would suggest that somehow I had brought it on myself, theres no smoke without fire sort of thing. Or they would tell me to man up and not take this sort of shit and that they wouldnt put up with it if they were in my shoes. (sadly some of these men have since come to me years later and now they are in the grips of this institution they now realise what I went through. I dont blame them as I used to be one of those blind fools who trusted the system would do right.) How do you get the info across to people who havnt experienced this. There are none so blind as them who will not see.

    It sickens me how you can get beaten almost to death by someone and another will ask, “What did you do to deserve it?” That screwed up mentality, IMO, feeds abuse and corruption.

    I hear from women who lose in the Family Court, and they say society thinks they are monsters as mothers, for society thinks only an abusive mother would lose her children to the father. Not true at all but as you rightly point out, “Where there’s smoke there’s fire”, is our mentality.

    The man up, and don’t take it, is funny, in a sick way. I remember Barrister Orlov sharing about a case when he got back to the office from court one day, where the judge feared the safety of court personnel and gave access to a father who had serious charges against him in the criminal court.

    The average man and women has little hope of “not taking it” for family is at the bottom of the Family Court hierarchy, from what I have seen.

    Men who had experience would usually shake their heads resignedly then basically tell me I was up shit creek without a paddle or even a canoe. I was so naieve back then and still trusted and respected the judicial system thinking they would help sort the mess the ex was making out.

    You sure learn it’s a legal system and not a justice system. Most of us are naive to that, IMO. There’s soooo many niches in the Family Court too. I am aware that lawyers representing women in domestic violence say, “Men always win” because they are often up against men with power through money and believe it or not, some men write to the women even though they are not meant to and say things like, “NZ’s Family Court is a joke, and I am going to get you big time”. I read affidavits of men who write, “It’s my right to rape my women”, or “It’s my right to slap women around”. Then I hear lawyers and CYF social workers say to fathers, “You are a good dad. I wish all were like you”.

    Dont worry those illusions are now gone and as Ive said before I now see the femily caught as a circus with the judge being the chief clown.
    I see from reading others stories on sites like this or talking to them that it is so biast against men. But it always astounds me when people try to defend it as being neutral. What a crock

    I think you have to take case by case and I’m glad you are through the worst. Sorry for this being so long.

  11. golfa says:

    #10 What’s humorous, is that you quoted what I said and then reversed it in an attempt to show …. what ?

  12. Alastair says:

    I at my age have Just experiencd this gap. After many years it has been the practice of a close member with their partner, then spouse,and as they came along to spend the day with me.

    Due to seperation, (6 weeks ago) this year I spent the festive season alone. Next yeat it will be OK, better arangements will have been made.

    Till then to those alone, hold on to the hope of next year. Keep hope in front of you.

    To give in to melencoly means those oppressing you have won – AND that is not going to happen!

    There is no one perfect solution. I know what held me together, it may not work for you.

    Out of this years downer I have realised I have some really supportive friends are. Look after them they are precious!

    Finally “A friend when you are in need is a true friend”

  13. Julie says:

    To golfa

    #10 What’s humorous, is that you quoted what I said and then reversed it in an attempt to show …. what ?

    I attempted to show you that you judged the women’s (wanted to) action as “Pathetic” without knowing their WORDS which to me meant you didn’t know their concerns or why they thought men were favoured in the Family Court. I wanted you to see how IMO, you judged something without knowledge, which from what I remember, is why the men protested outside the homes of judges, etc. They felt their concerns, words and thoughts that the Family Court favoured women was being considered the same or similar to “Pathetic”.

    One of the cases on the women’s side was about a couple and their baby who was perhaps 7 months old. They lived with his mother until they split when a few months pregnant and he went to Canada and met a woman he decided to marry. He returned home and filed for shared parenting. Nothing special,…. except he wanted the baby to attend his wedding in Fiji and for the mother to hand the baby over to a stranger at the airport who was to escort the baby to the wedding.

    The mother didn’t want to do that and she came on this site once, after or during the protesting, to say she 100% backed the men as a child of divorced parents herself. She said she would never take away a parent from a child.

    But her partner didn’t want shared parenting. He had planned to take the child to Canada after the wedding he set up deliberately in Fiji because it was not under the Hague convention. And to assist his plan, he could not be the one who removed the baby from New Zealand.

    Her lawyer and his lawyer were friends and when she said to her lawyer, “This is wrong, something doesn’t feel right”, her lawyer told her to basically shut up and that she wasn’t going to upset their (lawyers) friendship.

    Her parents in Australia paid between $20,000 – $30,000 for the men’s lawyer who put a stop to the abduction immediately.

    Do you think her case, her concerns, her words and thoughts that the Family Court favoured men is pathetic? These women were ordinary women having a hard time in the court the same way or similar to the men, IMO. They rallied around play-centres to get their group together and they may have even joined the men’s side after listening to THEIR cases. :)

  14. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Julie, you say:

    You sure learn it’s a legal system and not a justice system.

    I suggest the caught$ are more like a clothes mangle or a sausage machine, than a legal system? Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  15. Lukenz says:

    Yes Alistair the first year is uncharted waters for any man and his children. Worry, fear, agonising, wanting to get back to where you were. Struggling to be focused on what you should be doing. Not to mention brother and sister-in-law and other family members to cope with.

    Difficult to get through. Sometimes accepting the fact she does not want you anymore and taking time to work though that is what’s needed. Time will never put it right but time can soften and heal some pain.

    I married a childhood friend with a relationship that went back 17 years. That’s 6 years of GF-BF and 11 years married. No children. However I could not compete with a new romance so that as they say is that. That was 13 + years ago. I am now married to another wonderful lady. We have 5 beautiful children.

    I think a little about my X but not too much. Things did not turn out so well for her.

    Chin up Alistair, at least men of our generation do not have to recover from the memories of war.

    For the other comments on this forum…….

    Not just the family court but In any court humans are prepared to lie to get what they need to get it over the line and if the benefit is your own children or money then the focus becomes steadfast clear. White or black lie to get the outcome you want!!

    For me it’s the evidence and the way it is collected or changed that is important.

  16. Alastair says:

    @ LukeNZ
    Maybe in my bid not to identify people (Known to some of you) I became a little to cryptic.

    I was very lonely when my grands and the family didn’t arrive. I still have an excellent relationship with all parties. (I saw My Grands today)

    When I deal with hurt, I avoid revisiting and dwellingon the causes.

    The Sun will come out tomorrow. Dwell on these hopes. I will continue to see my grands at regular intervals, possibly as Child sitting increases!

    No matter how deep your hurt, love your enemy! They don’t know how to handle it. It is better for the children, and open lines of communication can avoid the family court!

  17. Alastair says:

    @ Murray Bacon, You catch on. Justice is about equality, something thats fair to ALL parties (Including Children)

  18. triassic says:

    Selective justice is not justice at all. Read the history of the Family Court and you will observe the driving theme is the protection of WOMAN and their children. The courts main function is to protect the MOTHER from the FATHER. It is a corner stone in the construction of the court system. MOTHER and CHILD are seen as ONE AND THE SAME. Any Judge who deviates from this line of thinking without extreme reasons won’t hold his job for long. Any mother who cannot separate her own needs from her children’s is a bad influence on the child, yet ever day these spoilt narcissists are treated as caring mothers in our Courts. Feminist ideology is more important to the FC than fundamental parenting. I advise every guy who comes to me for help,… If your about to separate from your partner and you have children then you better pray that the mother has integrity and maturity or else you are in for a life of hell.

  19. Julie says:

    To LukeNZ, You are kind and compassionate. Awesome to see.

    I am very sorry for getting off track. This would have been a good post for men to share pain and hope through written words (a great tool).

    I really do hope this site and others like it continue to support men through 2014 and I hope I am more respectful of men’s needed space……New Years Resolution for me :)

  20. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear triassic, I think you are looking at surface distractions and self-justifications.

    Underneath, it is just about invoicing to transfer money from the working poor to the non-working rich.

    If the rich aren’t paying enough tax, then increase tax rates on the poor….

    Anyway, that is not a Christmas message! Sharing divides a cake without destroying it. Greed turns a cake into a pile of dried crumbs and then most of the crumbs are lost to the family anyway.

    Lawyers treat each other like piranha, so it is not surprising that they treat customers like that too, they just don’t know any better.

    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  21. MurrayBacon says:

    I believe that the solution to men generally not being heard or listened to properly in familycaught$, although it is technically judges not having basic child care and protection knowledge, in practical terms it ends up as a human rights issue.

    Human rights of the children and human rights of both parents, to have decisions made promptly, with acceptable quality and at reasonable cost.

    I recall Bevin Berg patiently explaining about human rights issues, proving them in caught and defending them from encroachment. I didn’t fully understand what Bevin was saying unfortunately. Since I have read more, but I don’t really understand it in practical terms, to be able to take a case to caught. I ain’t given up trying to understand. We need to work together to get these issues under control…

    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  22. triassic says:

    Hi Murray, in response to your comment…

    Dear triassic, I think you are looking at surface distractions and self-justifications.

    let me respond by stating some facts that justify my opinion. Mothers gaining day to day care of children far out-strip fathers. This is in spite of the LAW stating that both parents are equally important to the child. As females are now liberated and have access to the work force we must assume that judges are making a gender choice on who would make the best parent for day to day care. As i have mentioned above, Judges have been indoctrinated by a biased curriculum and must surely be swayed by that. Karl Marx and Simone de Beauvoir both influenced the destruction of the nuclear family in favour of woman’s wants but I fail to see any specific left wing policies in the FC decisions.

    If you were a judge in the FC and were constantly bombarded with feminist dogma both in your initial training and the following seminars they constantly endure then I think that you too would find it hard to be fair in your decision making.

    You would have to have your head in the sand not to believe that there is a GENDER WAR happening in our society and the FC is an institution in the center stage of that war.

  23. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear triassic, I apologise for not being clear. By self delusions, I meant legal workers deluding themseles that they are following legislation.

    We agree of what is occurring in familycaught$. I am just saying that it isn’t just incompetence, it is managed plunder of families. I have seen women disempowered in familycaught$, when they had loose money for the easy taking, as much as this happens to men.

    Children’s best interest is quickly sacrificed, for the best interests of the legal workers.

    In my opinion, you are being far to kind to legal workers. Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  24. Downunder says:

    It’s not just Xmas, it’s New Year’s too. Thanks for your post Luknenz.

  25. Oscar says:

    I’m not sure what it is but there seem to be quite a few men hating agressive female lawyers operating on the North Shore. I male lawyer int he city pointed this out to me and I think he’s right. He said they all have sharp teeth over there.

    He was talking about Holbrook Law and Fiona Shaw in particular, he does seem to have some anger issues.

    Its a real shame that people with these issues are able to act them out in court, seemingly without any kind of reasonable constraints on their behaivour. They are permitted to denigrate and demean decent people who are there for their child, who are doing the noble and responsible thing.

    Its a shame that a lot of the psychologists in court dont go looking for personality disorders in the mother, as my ex for one, has a narcisssictic personality disorder, or at least fits the behaivours. And, in the end, its the behaivour that causes the harm, not any diagnosis or label for an illness.

    There needs to be greater transparency in the court.

    There needs to be an independent oversight committee.

    Judges and lawyers for the child should have independent psychological evaluations done on them.

    A Judge with a track record of gender bias needs to be removed from the system.

    Untested allegations should no longer be treated as evidence.

    The family court needs to function more like the criminal court.

    The child needs more of a say and their opinions be given more weight.

    The family court as a form of social engineering designed to break up the family unit, to weaken children and male children in particular, needs to be closed and a new system created to replace it.

    I’m not anti-female, I do think that with the pendulum swing in one direction towards woman’s rights, its needs to swing back in favour of mens rights to get some sort of balance between the two.

    And childrens rights in this need to come to the fore, in deed, not just in word, as in the present system.

  26. Oscar says:

    That should read she does seem to have anger issues, not he. Typo gender bias there lol

  27. bazzer81 says:

    Hi there, i’m new to this forum and i’m trying to find out information. I’m a British citizen and I currently live in the United Kingdom.

    When I was last in New Zealand I was in a relationship and when the relationship ended my ex vindictively took out a temporary protection order against me without notice. I never laid a finger on her or even shouted at her. She claimed it was because I was “emotionally abusive” towards her and that under New Zealand law this was classed as “domestic violence”. The order was stamped by your courts on the day after I left New Zealand so therefore I would question whether the order is legally enforcable. Apparently your courts tried many times to serve the court papers to me but were unable to as I had left the country. My ex then went back to court to ask if they could serve papers on me via e-mail to which the court agreed. When I received the papers I decided to ignore the legal action so that I could claim in the event that I ever returned to NZ that I never received any e-mail and that I was unaware of the order and the proceedings against me.

    I want to know:
    1) Is the order enforcable considering I was outside of New Zealand at the time the order was made?
    2) Is serving papers by e-mail legal and if so how can they prove that I actually recieved the document and that I was aware of the proceedings against me?
    3) I have never received a copy of any ‘final order’ against me. Is it a requirement that this order also must be delivered to me for the order to be valid?

    I am now hoping to return to NZ sometime in the future but feel that for sure that as soon as I step foot back in your country that my ex will use this unfair and draconian order to attempt to have me arrested in revenge for leaving her.

    It’s completely outrageous that I wasn’t even given a fair chance to defend myself before the temporary order was made and that the order was made purely on a made up story from her. This would never be allowed in a UK court as it completely flies in the face of natural justice. In Britain defendants always have a fair chance to give their side and I was really shocked that something like this can happen in a developed country like NZ.

    Many thanks.

  28. Downunder says:

    I think you are misunderstanding your situation.

    Your ex applied to the court for a temporary order and she was granted that order.

    Your ex then applied for alternative service and this was granted. The temporary order is deemed to have been served.

    It will now be a permanent order by virtue of not being challenged and the New Zealand police will have a copy of that permanent order.

    You should make yourself familiar with the conditions of that order, which will likely be served on you should you return to New Zealand.

    Whether any of this is fair, reasonable, just, legal or right is another matter that you may wish to challenge in the courts.

    Not that I want to reinforce the extent of the draconian backwater in which we live but you might also want to know that while the above situation is a matter of civil law, breach of a protection order is a criminal matter for which you (as you are obviously aware) can be arrested, charged, prosecuted, convicted and fined or imprisoned.

    Why would you ever want to come back here?

  29. shafted says:

    Hi Bazzer 81. Welcome to the club!
    #29 is correct in his advice. Whilst unfair, these documents have teeth that you should resepct.
    If you have no desire to see her again, my view would be don’t worry about it. Make sure you don’t see her without witnesses present (i.e. mine invited me to the home, screamed for me to get out when i disagreed with her, and then blocked my exit, all the time screaming get out, for the benefit of the neighbours)
    The order she obtained against me was made “ex parte” meaning i had no possibility of arguing it intially, and my view at the time was i didn’t want to see her again so why bother fighting it.
    Her’s too was obtained after fabrication on her part about control and abuse, threatening and intimidating ways etc.
    Interesting to note that when i was actually assaulted by her, and had her effectively stalking me, i tried to obtain such an order, and a year later we were sent to mediation.

  30. bazzer81 says:

    I’d want to return to NZ because i’m stubborn I guess! I had a great life out there with you guys and i’m damned if i’m gonna let one bunny boiling, black widow ruin it for me!!!
    I think you’re right about the order probably being permanent but I do think that if she did manage to get me arrested that when I explain the circumstances to the police they would treat me with sympathy and I would have a very good argument in a criminal court. Probably the worst that would happen is I would get deported which is a free ride home :-D
    I didn’t want to waste money on lawyers fighting the order because from what i’ve heard they nearly always side with the woman in anycase and it would have been a logistical nightmare trying to fight a case from the otherside of the world.

  31. bazzer81 says:

    Hey ‘shafted’ ‘downunder’ thanks so much for the help
    One final point:
    She was given a protection order but I thought a person could only be granted one of those if they were still in a relationship with the person that the order is against? Surely it should be a restraining order instead?
    If I don’t return to NZ the order is pretty much un-enforceable and I can pretty much do what I like but if I do come back and if I even as much as walk past her on the street I know for sure that she’s gonna be straight on the phone to cops and I may get thrown out of NZ with all my hard work in rebuilding a life out there down the drain..

  32. triassic says:

    2 things Bazzar:

    1. A temporary protection order is just that, temporary. Even if it has become permanent due to the passage of time you can still go to court to challenge its legitimacy should you choose. It is NOT a misdemeanour nor a criminal conviction provided you don’t disobey it’s requests. If you had children to the applicant it can become problematic with custody and access issues but if no children it is no more than a wet bus ticket.

    2. I have also lived in the UK and am a member of Father for Justice and I can assure you that ALL Western Family Courts have little to do with Justice, being Natural or not. If you think you are safe in the UK in your dealings with women then you have a lot to learn. Asia is still continent where generally judges use their common sense and the Father and Mother are encouraged to share parenting and there is a good chance of that happening because the social system has not been infiltrated with feminist bullshit meaning that Mothers who play games (and in the West they are encouraged to play them) are dealt with harshly as well they should be.

  33. Downunder says:

    Here’s a link to the legislation if you want to have a look at it.

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1995/0086/latest/DLM371926.html?search=qs_act%40bill%40regulation%40deemedreg_Domestic+violence_resel_25_h&p=1&sr=1

    I wouldn’t rely on sympathy or excuses to save your arse – if the protection order is breached you will most likely get arrested and receive a domestic violence conviction. It’s a Feminasty State.

    That’s one of the reasons men have left this country in their droves and it is mostly women here now.

  34. bazzer81 says:

    Hey triassic,

    Yeah, Fathers 4 Justice! I remember them they pulled some pretty big stunts to highlight the plight of fathers unable to see their kids but they’ve been much quieter in recent years. I remember they flour bombed our ex-prime minister Tony Blair inside the house of commons one year. Also a guy dressed as Batman climbed onto the roof of Buckingham Palace!
    I think you are fine in the UK as long as kids aren’t involved. For instance there is no way under UK law that my ex could have obtained this protection order against me just on her evidence alone. It is pretty difficult to get a restraining order against someone in the UK without a full criminal trial which gives both parties and the police a proper opportunity to have their say and to examine actual physical evidence and to speak to witnesses. The temporary order against me was made without her producing any evidence to back up her story at all. We have to have ‘fair’ trials because of human rights legislation that guarantees it and trials or judgements which take place in absentia or where the respondent has not had a proper opportunity to give their side are not considered fair and could result in action being taken against the UK by the European Union.
    Unfortunately though if kids are involved the UK family courts do seem to side with the mother as seems to be the case in most places sadly. However, since Fathers 4 Justice have been on the scene I believe that some progress has been made but definitely not enough :-(

  35. bazzer81 says:

    @downunder: From what i’ve seen of the legislation it’s pretty contradictory and open to interpretation. I think with these kind of judgements the result’s can be pretty arbitrary sometimes. For sure though if she did get me convicted of ‘domestic violence’ I would probably see red and do something back to her as soon as i’m released by the court (assuming i’m not immediately deported). If i’m gonna get booted out anyway I might as well pay her out before I leave!

  36. Downunder says:

    Up to three years imprisonment for breach of a protection order, and you’ll do your time before you go.

    Since this is a public forum monitored by New Zealand authorities, you should probably think carefully before saying any more.

  37. bazzer81 says:

    Oh well if your country really wants to waste all that money me jailing i’d rather give the British tax payers a break and be in NZ doing time. At least my ex will be part paying for my jail time through her taxes! I’ve seen Auckland jail, it overhangs the Northern Motorway, I used to drive past it everyday to pick my ex up from work. Looks pretty nice especially the brand new bit they built! Que-sera-sera, whatever will be will be..

  38. Downunder says:

    You’ve been out of town for a while – Southern Motorway. The extension to the prison was built to cope with the increasing numbers of women offenders. You’ll just have to suffer the original cold-hard-stone accommodation built back whenever.

  39. bazzer81 says:

    Anyways, thanks for all of your replies I really appreciate it. As things stand i’m 12,000 miles from NZ and it will take a fair few things to happen before I ever return. I just wanted to know what i’m up against if I do come back. I’ll try to keep well away from her but i’ve just got this feeling of foreboding and that trouble will find me. I won’t do anything silly, i’m just letting off some steam! Unfair family court matters are highly emotive and I think we all know how each other feel

  40. bazzer81 says:

    @ downunder: God yeah it is the Southern Motorway actually. Oh well at least it’s not quite as old as some of the UK prisons built about 300 years ago!

  41. Downunder says:

    bazzer81, maybe you could provide a support network for men escaping New Zealand and heading for England. Are you based in London?

  42. bazzer81 says:

    No, i’m not based in London, not sure whether any of this forum text is searchable by google but probably I better not name the city where I currently am as it could fall into the wrong hands. Of course though I can share my exact location with you via private message :-D
    I would love to support anyone who wants to leave New Zealand and come to the UK for a new life. Un-fortunately the government here has been having a big immigration clampdown over the last few years so it’s not as easy to get in here as it was. Anyone can come here from NZ for 6 months on a tourist visa which gives you time to settle down and find a sponsor or partner that can help you to stay permanently. If you’re under 30 I think you can also apply for a 2 year working holiday visa. Or if you want to study you can apply for a student visa once you have an offer of a place from an institution.

  43. Downunder says:

    Do they have age limits on study? Old fellows aren’t allowed to study in NZ.

  44. triassic says:

    You can study in NZ for free until you are in a coffin, you just can’t get paid for doing it over age 55ys
    . Go get yourself a degree in Social Science and discover why society is FUCKED UP!!

  45. bazzer81 says:

    No I don’t think there is any age limit for a UK student visa :-D Dunno whether some study is free for NZ residents but for an international student studying at Auckland Uni it costs NZ$20,000 per year! By the way, for your info, to fly to the UK a return ticket to London from Auckland or Wellington costs about NZ$2000.

  46. Downunder says:

    I am not sure I would want to go to England, with the new legislation they are proposing.

    MPs from all parties are backing a tough US-style law that would make domestic abuse a specific offence carrying a sentence of up to 14 years in prison

    Guardian article

  47. bazzer81 says:

    Oh dear, yes this does not sound good! I’m all for genuine wife-beaters getting their just deserts but all this emotional ‘violence’ nonsense is just a joke. At least though with this proposed legislation there will be a proper trial not like in NZ where she can make up a story and get a protection order just like that without producing any proof

  48. bazzer81 says:

    Just a point..
    I am aware that if my ex ever visited the UK that I could sue her for ‘defamation of character’ and use her protection order claim form as proof. As I was in the UK at the time when I was served with the form under British law the violation would be treated as if it happened here and not in NZ. Under UK law the onus would then be on her to prove that her claims were true and it would very cheap for me to bring this action. She has an Aunt that lives in London.
    In NZ i’ve heard that there’s a saying ‘New Zealanders don’t sue’. I wanted to know what the situation is with regard to suing in NZ and if there is anything you can do to get compensation if anyone slanders or libels you???

  49. Downunder says:

    The ‘New Zealanders don’t sue relates to accidents, because we have ACC, you can sue in NZ for defamation etc. Ask our current prime minster who is being sued for exactly that at the moment.

    Once your domestic violence legislation is passed it will probably operate like our does, where it will recognise protection orders from other countries – then your ex will be able to bring her piece of paper with her when she comes to visit her aunt.

    And you thought you were well out of the way. Might pay to keep an eye on your UK legislation and see what the penalties are for breach of a protection order.

  50. Alastair says:

    Worse than that bazzer81 The police can issue a saftey order (aka as a protection order)) on a whim!

    It only lasts 7 days, you are still saddled with an anti violence course and the so-called victim has just enough time to grab all the furniture and money and dissapear with the kids! If the “Nice” policeman feels charitable, you can have a bag of clothes – Which the Victim gets to choose for you.

  51. shafted says:

    Ha HA Alistair. She denied me my clothes for a month out of vindictiveness.
    Finally got them in black plastic rubbish bags, covered in after shave and tooth paste.

  52. bazzer81 says:

    Luckily, there is no such thing as a ‘protection order’ in the UK at present so if she ever shows up here waving that around I guarantee that the cops will do absolutely nothing. As the law currently stands ‘emotional violence’ (an oxymoron if ever there was one) counts for absolutely zilch over here and she has no proof of even that. If they do change the law it probably won’t come into effect for a fair while.
    I very much doubt that the UK will ever accept court orders from other countries as it would mean we would have to accept judgements that are mostly not worth the paper they are written on from all sorts of corrupt tin-pot places and it would undermine UK human rights rules. I’ll keep an eye on the rules but i’m not worried. Also if I breached my order from the UK and the NZ police tried to have me extradited I would oppose extradition on the basis that their request fails the ‘double criminality’ rule because emotional violence is not currently an offence in the UK. Also the the NZ police would have to present a prima facie case to the foreign office in London and as they are unable to interview me because i’m not in their juresdiction this would be very difficult. I highly doubt they would even try because the cost of escorting me to the other side of the world on some fairly minor charges would be totally un-economical. I’m sure they would rather I simply stayed away!

  53. bazzer81 says:

    @ Alister: Yeah, I was ordered to go on a ‘domestic violence’ course also. They seriously expect me to fly to the other side of the world to go on some crazy course for an offense that I didn’t even commit. I never even laid a finger on her or even shouted at her! Oh yeah and the funniest is they give you about 5 days to object to the course in writing! It takes an average of about 10 days for a letter from the UK to arrive in NZ! Now how unfair is that? Anyways, I just ignored the whole thing

  54. triassic says:

    Hey you POMS have a great sense of humor with a truckload of talent but we beat you for comedy hands down when it comes to family law. The best comedians are the Judges but the lawyers and Law makers give a good show as well. Going to a good standup can put you back 4100 but in NZ we dont charge at all. You just need a mate to invite you into his court hearing. It can be so funny at times that you can get your clothes dirty when you end up rolling on the floor in laughter. I felt a bit awkward when the Judge decided to shove a big one up my mates rectum but i kept hold of my SOH and advised him not to worry as I would keep it our little secret. When you ome back let me know and i will arrange a good show for you.

  55. Alastair says:

    There will now be a big red flag flying by your name and the red squad awaiting your arrival at the airport! Somehow I don’t think you will choose to return. Good luck where ever you are.8

  56. golfa says:

    A friend of mine had a Protection Order stuck on him. At changeover with his kids one day he told his ex that he was going to apply for Shared Care. Apparently she felt “threatened” by this (probably because she realised if he got it, the large amount of Child Support would be reduced) so she saw her Lawyer and he was issued with one within days.
    After a while he realised that he could make it work for him. Every time he saw her and she approached him, he walked away, even if she wanted to talk about the kids. Every text or email she sent him, he ignored and replied through HER Lawyer (creating costs for her.) Every time she phoned him, he hung up.
    Eventually she realised the Order was working against her too.

  57. bazzer81 says:

    If anyone is interested here is the human rights legislation that guarantees the right to a fair trial in the UK in both civil and criminal cases. It states that you have to be informed of any proceedings against you straight away and given a proper opportunity to defend yourself before any judgement is made. Therefore the judgement my ex obtained would be classed as an ‘unfair trial’ under UK law so even if the law is changed and we start to recognise foreign orders and it’s made retrospective her order would for sure be deemed null and void in this country. I could also fight any extradition attempt on the basis that I would likely be subjected to a further unfair trial
    http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/humanrights/hrr_article_6.pdf

  58. Downunder says:

    We have a human rights act too, but it only applies to women.

  59. bazzer81 says:

    Haha ‘downunder’, sounds like time for a revolution! Anyways, so.. if you don’t mind me asking how come you’re on this site? Anything I can help with?

  60. Downunder says:

    Thanks for your offer bazzer81, but I’m just here to hand out the red pills.

  61. Stephen Gee says:

    bazzer81 & Downunder -

    handing out the red pill IS revolutionary.

  62. bazzer81 says:

    You guys have been watching The Matrix too much

  63. Downunder says:

    You guys have been watching The Matrix too much

    The red pill is a symbolic representation of a hidden truth.

    The truth has been hidden from you, it here if you want it, but it is your choice to seek it and see it for yourself.

    I don’t think understanding this equates to “watching The Matrix too much.”

  64. shafted says:

    #57. Yep-i picked up the kids from a local shopping car park a couple of years ago, (did not want any more spurious accusations) and pulled up my car next to hers. I asked her to wind down her car window and asked “have you packed the kids swimming clothes” at which point she screamed (for the benefit of the other shoppers) that i was acting in a threatening and intimidating manner, and to take a step back from the car.The local do gooders were hovering so i smiled sweetly and went on my merry way with a couple of, now,traumetised kids in the car.

  65. MurrayBacon says:

    Downunder’s point is salient. Young men and women making decisions based on trust, rather than actual knowledge about how NZ works. Then moaning afterwards. Still, many young men do look before they leap, but too many don’t look ahead enough.

  66. bazzer81 says:

    Another point I want to make about these ludicrous protection orders… They don’t make it clear that if you don’t challenge the temporary order it will stay against you FOREVER!!! In Britain for minor stuff restraining orders are normally for 1 or 2 years, 10 years absolute max! When I was informed that my order would become ‘permanent’ I took that to mean it will become final and will last for a few years. If I had known that ‘permanent’ meant absolutely forever I may well have actually challenged it out of principal! Forever is just draconian and ludicrous beyond belief

  67. Beyan says:

    draconian and ludicrous beyond belief

    You have succinctly described the majority of family law

  68. Downunder says:

    bazzer81

    In the New Zealand domestic violence laws, if a woman gets a protection order against you, it will automatically include any children, and sometimes can include your friends and relatives.

    Even if the mother dies the protection order lives on until the children reach 17 years.

    Just something to watch out for when you are looking at this new domestic violence legislation being proposed in England.

  69. bazzer81 says:

    I remember a few years ago when France was proposing similar laws to what you have in NZ they were completely ridiculed in the UK media. The newspapers were saying that ‘violence of the tongue’ (as the French call it) is just a laughable oxymoron and a product of an overly politically correct and nanny state and that we should never have such laws here. It does seem that there has been some change in stance since then probably due to pressure from feminists but I think there is still a way to go yet before this proposed legislation becomes law.

  70. @ Alaistar
    @ Bazzar81
    @ Shafted
    @ Downunder totally agree,

    Interesting reading,

    Yes I put my hand up to all the exact thing happening to me,(my clothes took 3 months though) its interesting when you look back , but as they say , NEVER EVER AGAIN. :)

Leave a Reply

Connect with Facebook

Please note that comments which do not conform with the rules of this site are now likely to be removed. They should be on-topic for the page they are on. Discussions about moderation are specifically forbidden.

Notify me of followup comments via e-mail. You can also subscribe without commenting.

Powered by WordPress