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Mon 12th August 2013

New child support formula, potential issue

Filed under: Child Support — Mickky1972 @ 7:19 pm

Hi

Just trying to get my head around the new child support calculations that will come in next year. I instigated a review earlier in the year and my son’s mother had no PAYE income but in excess of $120,000 listed in other sources, I.e shares, dividends, trusts etc. With the new formula it is based upon taxable income, I.e PAYE, she will no doubt put zero again. I have son 36% of the nights in a court order. Just trying to be proactive here, anyone in a similar situation.

58 Responses to “New child support formula, potential issue”

  1. Too Tired says:

    Atleast you have it in wirting that the $120k exsists, I think you will be better off in 2015 when more of the incomes are included, in 2015 as i understand it the only income not included will be the benefit and child tax working for families.

  2. Mickky1972 says:

    Hi

    Yes have it all in documentation from the review etc, hence the process to get a paper trail. I have emailed IRD requesting direction based upon the review etc, and will see what their reply is, gut feeling is I will have to wait until 2015. It will be an interesting process, as if the IRD indicates they will only look at PAYE the only option is another review under condition 8, thereafter if unfavourable can request the commissioner review that outcome. I will be interested to see if it gets to a review stage if the IRD will not recognise all sources of income prior to 2015, and if so under what grounds. I will request what grounds at he review process and look for some legal cases to reference etc.

  3. hornet says:

    Child Support based on PAYE INCOME – what a load of Bollocks – thats the trick, we are all made to THINK its based on PAYE – but did you know that IRD can make a unilateral decision as to what they THINK you are CAPABLE of earning – IGNORING filed tax returns, ignoring FACTS concerning actual INCOME, Ignoring Family court agreements, and they will discriminate with impunity because they can – they cant be investigated by the human rights commission – if your a dad you cant be a full time parent……..so they make up a NUMBER, which you cant challenge, and then they start the demands – and when you cant pay, they will take what ever property you have left and sell it…..this is the reality, the sham thats its based on PAYE income, is BULLSHIT…….ALL PARENTS beware, the new changes just mean they can go after anyone related to the kid…..gay or straight,,,,and take what ever you have left…….so as for the $120K in investments – it will be targetted……they will then set a maximum value that THEY BELIEVE its going to cost to raise the kid – not a number based on what you both earn – and if you think im joking ive seen it happening now – to my family……

    Did you know they are even currently asking recently retired superanuatants – what assets they own – what does that have to do with collecting the pittance you just worked you life for…..is means testing on the way, probably – they are parasites looking at every way possible to steal your wealth, and anyway possible to NOT PAY you……

  4. Scott B says:

    Yup I am always assessed on my potential earnings, not my actual earnings.

  5. hornet says:

    Scott, how do they get away with this….. thats an open ended opportunity for the state to just demand what ever they like $$$$ from parents……with decisions which are impossible to challenge – you have no recourse at all – I know from experience – and then you get into the more sinister scenario as I touch on above – when you cant pay – clearly you cant because you dont earn the amounts you are assessed on, so we have a defacto property seizure system operating against parents …… do we not have protections against illegal seizure of our property – without fear of illegal seizure by the state…..as I recall do we not have those rights enshrined in the treaty – for ALL NEW ZEALANDERS the right to own property, along with our civil rights and protections etc…. or is this why we are seeing a quick rush to change the NZ constitution – to make property theft by the state legal to support this new child tax regime??????

    Im thinking of taking a challenge to this through the courts, and seeking damages for illegal search and seizure or private and personal property – anyone care to join me, there are far too many instances of this occurring – so its clearly become BEST BUSINESS PRACTICE for these dogs – we need to demonstrate the corruption of the current system and put an end to this sham.

  6. Scott B says:

    I’d be keen to bring some sort of legal action. I have no funds to contribute though. I am sick of being treated like a 4th class citizen. I say fourth cause fathers are below women, children and animals in this country. Maybe we are fifth behind the environment?

  7. Downunder says:

    When the child support act restricts your freedom of movement are we actually citizens any more, or just resident slaves?

  8. hornet says:

    Great news, please send me some contact info if you can.

    bad things happen when GOOD people do nothing – and I include Parents – both man and woman in this fight.

    I believe there are several areas which can be challenged and defeated successfully.

    1. Victimization – its an offence in NZ – and yet men / fathers in particular are being victimized from the outset in NZ by the family court, justice systems, and Child Support services – all of us are immediately labelled as angry and violent as a matter of course and we are being treated as such in many cases – without any truth or facts, and forced to defend your innocence at significant cost and personal injury to your mental health. We are NOT treated as equal at separation and I am sure many of you have stories to tell on that point.

    2. Discrimination – we are deliberately deprived of time with our children. This just increases the very conflict which is a leading cause of the majority of domestic violence incidents in NZ – the system knows this, and wont do anything about it, because its good for business. A direct refusal to ensure a fathers rights to see his child even when he has court orders in his favor, is a direct breach of your most basic right to time with your own child.

    Discrimination – we are NOT permitted to be full time care givers to out own kids – the state demands that we must work and earn maximums to fund the child support tax system – and if we do not work, they currently can make up an amount they determine you ” COULD EARN” what sort of a fantasy is that …. I do NOT see this same requirement being made of mothers…..

    3. Right to property – we should be allowed to live free and without fear of illegal search and seizure of our personal property by the state. The Treaty, and civil rights acts – all protect this, but it seems our govt departments have never been challenged on this and forced to adhere to these most basic requirements.

    4. ( 7) Exactly Downunder – our civil right to be free and travel in and out of NZ, is being targeted for removal – Good parents are being treated like criminals – having their freedoms removed under a draconian state enforced property seizure regime which no parent currently has the means of ability to ever challenge. This must be challenged and defeated.

    5. Child Abuse – I believe from my own experience that the state is a party to child abuse – when its officers of the court refuse to intervene and protect children from horrendous behavior – their own client – more interested in preserving Process over protecting a child – they are scum – behavior they know exists but refuse to address with penalty or accountability – that in my book makes them a party to the harm being caused to children – psychological harm is more permanent and more damaging than physical harm in my book. Too many parents are getting away with using kids to leverage property, or as a tool to persecute the other parent by depriving them of time, or by making it very difficult or unpleasant to have that time. Conflict the system seems happy to allow – because its funding this massive business……..

    6. As usual with the Govts solutions the recent sticking plaster for child abuse on the growing ever larger – Conflict Boil on NZ’s backside, which no one wants to address directly – stop conflict, actually help parents in their most vulnerable time and watch the conflict decline and domestic violence and child abuse – DECLINE as well.

    But currently no one wants to take responsibility, no one wants to address the cause of conflict – depriving a parent of time with their kids is a big catalyst for CONFLICT – do they help reduce this – NO.

    I am in touch with a leading NZ human and civil rights lawyer and I believe its time we start making Govt accountable, especially since the very human rights department we should all be expected to help us, is NOT ALLOWED to investigate Govts total lack of accountability or compliance on such matters.

    The only way to get them to actually do anything is to take a class action and demand damages …. expose the system for what it is doing to good people ………it takes good parents and turns them into horrible bitter and twisted people.

  9. kiran jiharr says:

    count me in

  10. NZexile says:

    Hornet.. actually a legal mass action suit seems one of the few if not the only way forward..

  11. Ministry of Men's Affairs says:

    Count us in on a legal action if there are enough participants to spread the financial load. Unfortunately it’s unlikely to be a ‘mass’ action because NZers and particularly NZ men are mostly too complacent to act. The Ministry of Men’s Affairs had a launch at Parliament grounds a couple of years ago. TV reporters turned up and conducted a few interviews but, because the turn out was so pathetic none of it was ever broadcast. A handful of people making noise is simply not newsworthy no matter how sound their arguments. Why couldn’t we get, say, 30 or 50 people, enough for media to see it as significant enough to report on? A few of us have through the years organized protests in various centres including parliament against Family Court sexism, the so-called ‘child support’ enslavement system and in support of men’s welfare. We were lucky to get more than 3 men attending any of these protests. Those complaining here on MENZ Issues, while their vigilance, thinking and discussion are worthwhile, are too few to have much impact and almost none of them actually show when there is an opportunity to protest or to do anything more active.

    One of the problems has been that most men fire off on their own tangent, wanting to set up and lead new organizations with big intentions. They soon find they are isolated; few of the men complaining so vigorously on web blogs will join them in anything active and are more likely to criticize than to support. The organizations will lack structure and sound decision-making processes, and even the few people who initially supported the group tend to become dissatisfied with its politics and soon abandon it.

    Another problem is that among those concerned about feminist abuse of men and children is a proportion who have major personal problems that result in their reasoning being compromized, their involvement being divisive and their behaviour becoming unsafe, threatening or otherwise damaging to the movement (insofar as it is a movement, which isn’t much). Others who have set up new ‘groups’ have not had the intellectual or writing ability to be taken seriously.

    We who formed the Ministry of Men’s Affairs thought it might be a good platform to concentrate energy and contribution with public statements, individual challenges of those perpetrating anti-male abuse, and submissions to parliament. However, how many have joined this group or assisted in its efforts? If people think a different kind of group with a different name might do better, we would be happy to support something different. If anyone wants to come on board with the Ministry of Men’s Affairs, now would be a good time. Send us an email to mmainnz@gmail.com . The current National government is planning to turn up seriously the witchhunt against men, for example by allowing Courts to sentence and punish them as if guilty even when they have been found innocent. Unfortunately we don’t have the expertise to use encryption at this stage.

    As a separate matter, how shall we make contact with each other and get together to plan some group legal action?

  12. Downunder says:

    That’s a pretty lame assessment of New Zealand men.

    Any protest movement gains strength because there is an expectation that there will be a successful outcome that will bring about change. The reality is that men can see that those trying to lead it through some sort of peaceful process are a bunch of lame ducks which causes it to fracture and fall apart.

    Those men that have suffered at the hands of the court system can hardly be expected to have faith in it. Those people who have experienced the deaf ears of the political system can hardly be expected to sit down and talk about it.

    You may be under the illusion that what progress the Union of Fathers made was through the politics and court system. It wasn’t. The politicians didn’t listen to us even when we had hundreds of members throughout the country. The legal system laughed us off.

    It was tactics. One of the main reasons we did get some change was because we started to set up a network of safe houses throughout the country. Men that were prepared to hide other men and their children.

    The first time we hid someone the media releases went out but nothing ever went to air. Mahoney (the then Principal Family Court Judge) brought the police in. They had no idea where to start looking and even though they rattled our cage they got nothing.

    Eventually Mahoney was forced to negotiate directly with us. We would return the case to court but if there wasn’t change we’d keep doing it.

    That’s how it started and that’s just a little piece of the story.

    Some of those involved have paid a high price, personally, financially and socially. This battle got past warrants and phone tapping to the point where the SIS got into covert operations and dosing.

    The reason UOF attracted members in its early days was firstly because we weren’t so damn conceited and had some respect for New Zealand men and what they were experiencing and secondly because we were actually prepared to stand up and fight.

    You can take those clinical assessments and stick them where they fit best.

  13. Scott B says:

    At least Hornet is trying to do something. Pretty much everyone else on here just moans. I say good on ya Hornet let’s get cracking.

  14. sos says:

    I am a stay at home mother of one and step mother of 2 children whom which we have little to no contact with, despite our best efforts over the past 7 years through the family court. From a women’s perspective I whole heartedly agree the system is corrupt… The new child support calculation takes the cake.

    This is our scenario:

    My husband works full time as an apprentice. I am a stay at home mum of our 4 month old. I used to work fulltime earning a decent wage. Living on an apprentice wage is not at all easy but totally worth taking the hit for the benefit of our child. After all, children need love not money.

    The current child support calcuation includes a living allowance for the paying parent for a partner, plus any dependant children. Under the new calculation, the provision for a dependant partner has now been removed.

    After estimating my husbands child support it appears he will be paying 3x the amount of child support he is paying now. There is absolutely no way we can meet this cost. The only option we have is for me to return to work, put our child into care so that we can scrape together enough to meet his child support payments…

    The IRD argue that the new calculation is fairer as it takes into account both incomes of mother and father, and shared care arrangements.

    How is it fair that a father does not qualify for any sort of “shared care” rebate as he only has the children about 90 nights per year, instead of the required 103 nights? We provide everything for them when in our care.. clothes, food, travel, medical bills. IRD’s reponse to this was “Perhaps you should try to get more contact with the children”… Because that’s real easy!

    How is it fair that our 4 month old will be put into care, when otherwise wouldn’t have so that my husband can meet his child support obligation?

    How is it fair that what my income my husbands ex parenter earns has bearing on how well off my family is?

    Not only men are being affected by this type of corruption. Their families are being penalised also. Surely the government and courts can see sense if this is brought to attention with support of women too?

  15. NZexile says:

    Scott B.. agree…

  16. NZexile says:

    sos… it actually has nothing to do with benefit/fairness to women or children nor families nor men.. it is simply social engineering to destroy the family, impoverish the population, make the population dependent on the government and hence easy to control..

    as more women begin to affected negatively by the new changes to the CSA perhaps they will start to see this..

  17. Downunder says:

    It is not the effort I am dissing, it is the attitude coming through in this post toward ‘those particular New Zealand men’ the men’s movement doesn’t want to know and the attitude toward the man in the street. Just because they don’t write too good doesn’t make them unintelligent, uncaring, any less human or any less hurt by what has happened to them.

    Doing something is admirable; understanding what you are up against is an even better idea. We had lawyers too, but they didn’t last long – their choice was us or their careers.

    We had numbers that haven’t been matched since and collectively our expenditure would have been in the millions of dollars. We understood the people in the street and we sure as hell wouldn’t have achieved what we did if we had adopted the sort of attitude that is coming through here.

    If there is any sort of attitude adjustment required it needs to come from those people who are seeing the backs of ordinary-decent people walking away from them.

  18. hornet says:

    13. SOS – This is exactly why I want to keep everyone focused on this being a PARENT issue – its gender neutral – the GOVT want Men and Woman fighting between each other – Divide and Conquer – So this must be a united effort – Parents, MUMS and DADS.

    SOS – you have also alluded to and confirmed what I believe will happen – BOTH PARENTS and any dependents of children are going to be slammed with a new tax – and as I have seen first hand – the GOVT will simply pick a $$$ number they want and demand it from you – the system being so corrupt, expensive, and complex for any normal kiwi parent to ever challenge – this is by design of course……

    SOS – you have also confirmed another point I am concerned about with the new Welfare regime – demanding that kids be placed into Care, so parents can GET BACK TO WORK to support the States DEBTS….thats exactly where we are headed – how dare any govt demand that Mums ( and dads ) must go to work over being a parent. When the Govt have diminished the numbers of jobs for good people anyway, so there are more people on welfare through NO FAULT of there own – they are now demanding that those people must work to collect a benefit over being a parent is a step too far….. another attack on your most basic rights to being a parent.

    Look – I am investigating options on taking action on this = throwing the system on the back foot with a challenge to demonstrate just how corrupt it is for all PARENTS. There are so many breaches of the Civil Rights act, and the associated human Rights acts and protections to privacy, freedoms and property – I am very confident any action – WILL WIN…….

    I seem to have created a HORNETS NEST as it were and thats a good thing – because the more people that stand up to this system of corruption the more chance there will be to – demonstrate just how horrible it is, and of course the more chance there will be to demand Change – from what I have seen, the system currently gets away with what it is going because it attacks us all in an INDIVIDUAL basis.

    So let me know how best to get everyone on side and together moving forward – I can arrange a web site or email where we can collate summaries of our individual positions – tabulated into a collective format for each area of concern – everyone seems to have similar stories to tell, so my intention is to packages these together so that each story supports the subjects we wish to target. Ie Discrimination, breaches of Privacy, a system which is in effect a Defacto property theft from NZ parents – because you wont be able to pay what is demanded of you, removal of your most basic rights to be a PARENT – you should not have to work for a benefit, depriving your kids of the parenting and care they deserve – has our Govt lost sight of how much work is involved in just running a home properly.

    Anyone have any specific skill sets out there? legal, Secretarial, Filing, flow charting, accounting etc – which we can use to help prepare this?

    16. Down under – what I have noticed is that just about every group that has established itself – offering help, has itself become an entity which just wants to make money from people grief – anything I do, will not be for profit or for personal gain.

    My main concerns are this – I am sick of seeing good parents fked over by a system which is so fatally flawed, and I am very upset at how many kids are being deliberately harmed – because the system refuses to help prevent conflict – which would in turn reduce Domestic Violence and Child Abuse – I am convinced of that. Conflict currently equals – good business and that needs to stop. People going through separation need help not an overzealous excessively regulated system which is only making lawyers rich, while failing to provide the very SERVICE people expect.

    lastly – I am not going to sit back and watch good NZ parents – be ravaged of all their savings and property in the future – under some some hideous new child taxation scheme, which will also deprive them of the right to being a PARENT – by forcing them to work to pay off an excessive debt demanded by the state. Thats a step too far. NZ is better than that and Kiwis must unite against it.

    Thanks for all the feedback and support. We all know taking the system on through NORMAL channels is FRUITLESS – especially as INDIVIDUALS – thats why I am proposing a different approach – whereby we take the system to task – EXPOSE IT as a group – in numbers – parents all getting behind this and demanding change…..so many people saying the same thing CANNOT be admonished, cannot be cast aside as a conspiracy theory or just some parent who has had a bad deal – this is happening to us all, in varying degrees – and I am sure we ALL KNOW people who are going through hell – I know plenty just in our families circle of friends – mums and Dads – re married in many cases to good partners – who are having the most horrendous demands made on them……and to which they have no remedy……because the system is designed to be impossible to tackle in the normal course of business……

    A high court filing, seeking damages for all the parents and kids who have been destroyed and harmed and had their most basic HUMAN rights trampled on – would certainly get the spot light on the actual issues…… and you will stop the DIVISION – this must be a MUMS and DADS, PARENT issue. So everyone gets behind it…….. NZ parents.

  19. hornet says:

    13. SOS, Just forgot to add, sitting here with my lovely wife – we have now had TEN years with the Family Fraud, tried everything and now we have the FULL cycle of Alienation taking effect – with a child who is now 12 years old and who has been brainwashed into hating us – we have done nothing to warrant this and the child has no idea of the reality and the truth – we have also been deliberately deprived of time with that child at every turn – court orders which cost me a fortune to get – defining our time with that child – have been breached – and the courts refuse to ENFORCE them – CYFS will not help, Police will not help – horrible stuff – but this is all good information to lay at the foot of the Justice department – and demand answers – you take my money, for a service you offer, to facilitate time with my own child,and then you refuse to assist me in any way to enforce the orders you charged me for….thats actually almost a breach of the consumer guarantees act – and I am looking into that angle as well- the Justice department advertises a service which most good parents throw themselves into, paying $$$ dearly expecting service, only to find the Justice system REFUSES to deliver on the very service they offer – on so many levels – right there is another opportunity to demand answers….and seek damages – and the more complaints I can tabulate the more weight the collective complaint will have…… because as we all know this is the reality of the system as it is currently – and we need to bring it down.!!!!!!!!!

  20. hornet says:

    Hows this for an idea – we create a web site, which has a Separate page for each subject we are concerned about – With room for a summary text to be inserted by you.

    1. CIVIL RIGHTS – Right to Parent your children.

    2. DISCRIMINATION – how have you been discriminated by the System – Deliberately deprived of time with your child? Court orders not enforced?

    3. Child Abuse – describe how Conflict has not been resolved and how that has impacted and caused harm to your child.

    4. Behavior – has the system refused to address bad behavior by one parent – All that behavior the Justice system lists in its little booklets but refuses to actually legislate against with penalties for those parents ( and lawyers ) who currently do all of the above and get away with it – because they can – has that parent ( encouraged by lawyers ) been allowed to use the child to leverage property, to cause you suffering and unnecessary pain by deliberately depriving you of time with your child and or making each visit unpleasant. Have you had mail stopped, phone calls stopped or interfered with etc.

    5. has child support services allowed a child to be used to spy on your property, and privacy?

    6. Has a lawyer for child refused to intervene when they have witnessed a child being harmed. Have they actively allowed their client to be harmed, and refused to help prevent it – preferring to oversee process over protecting a child from harm.

    7. Are you currently be demanded to pay child support calculated using a formula in excess of your actual income – Ie a number made up by IRD, under this absurd system of what your Potential Income would be – according to them.

    8. Have you felt completely hopeless during IRD reviews – have you felt like nothing you say is listened to at all. Has the entire process seemed like a sham to you? Were you further disempowered when you found out you had no ability to overturn decisions, and the time frame and complexity of the system prevented you from having any chance of overturning a decision or more importantly – getting a FAIR decision – based on your ACTUAL income. Not some fantasy assessment.

    9. Have you had your property broken into and property siezed to pay off excessive demands in Child support…..

    You get my drift = a list of questions, subjects and guidelines to help focus each of you on all the deficiencies of a system which refuses to help good parents.

    Obviously I have made these up as I type, but a more reasoned set of questions needs to be prepared so we cover all the concerns we all have with the current process and how it has impacted on our lives – costs, stress, conflict, harm to kids etc.

    We each log in with our details – which are not posted for public viewing, and then we can each post summaries under each heading as to how we have been effected and how we believe our rights have been infringed by the Family Court, Justice Department and Child Support System.

    In effect we create a table of complaints categorized by SUBJECT – from multiple parents.

    Anyone who posts and gives their details- must make a commitment to give evidence at any proceedings we decide to take collectively.

    Because we all live across NZ, this may be the easiest way to tabulate the many stories from good parents into one location that we can draw from to put a case together.

  21. wendy says:

    I’m with ‘Hornet’.

  22. Scott B says:

    19 great idea

  23. Skeptic says:

    Hornet,
    A good idea.
    You can do this by simply setting up a facebook account and allowing members only to have administrative rights to post articles, videos and comments.
    Separate linked pages can then be created to deal with specific issues too.
    You can then control via filters what information goes out only to members or conversely to the general public.
    Good luck.

  24. Murray Bacon says:

    Dear Hornet,

    such a website has been running for s several years. I tried to join, but couldn’t get past the entry screening, due to my public comments. I can put you in touch with the contact people and you can see if you get further than I. ph 638 7275.

    Murray [I haven’t killed enough] Bacon.

  25. kiranjiharr says:

    Hi Murray
    can I have an email I can reach you on??

  26. Too Tired says:

    The stupididty of the child support system is the Govt hasn’t addresses any of the issues form the previous rought!

    They still assess your income on gross, which is stupid because with acc leavies and kiwisaver (and tax) your left with a lot less to pay their unreasonable requests.

    They haven’t addressed that people start new families and still expect you to survive on 1/3 less income, you already pay for all the countries benefits through taxes, then pay again and again.

    They wont wait to find out who will actually be the custodian through the courts they just evict men from thier homes and start stealing from wages from day one!

    And they posted the cost of raising children on IRD website, which is assinine because by thier stats I now pay 90% of the cost to raise them. Shouldn’t it be half?

    These vultures haven’t heard a word from the victims of this system, male or female they simply do not care!.

  27. joostice says:

    Guys, I don’t know where to start. My ex is a Singaporean Kiwi dual citizen with my son who is a dual citizen also. I’m not against paying for him but I’m paying the full amount and can’t get him back to share custody. I haven’t seen him or had any contact with him for 3 years, he was 5 when he left with her to Singapore. Singapore are not signatories to the Hague Convention and our laws are unenforceable in Singapore. My damn Govt still make me pay her. Surely if you can use our laws against us by claiming child support then shouldn’t that also make you subject to our laws as well. My ex wife used to call us “dumb ass kiwis” living in a backward country….while I defended it(ex serviceman)….and my govt takes her side!!!What a kick in the guts from MY Govt. I can relate to trying to start a new family and expecting to live on 1/3 less income. Why do they assess our gross income? What kind of idiots are running this place?? Traitors!!Went to Eric Roy 6 months ago and heard nothing.

  28. Downunder says:

    MY Govt

    It’s the house of the bitch. You just didn’t realise what you were defending.

    Welcome to the club.

  29. justiceforall says:

    How can she be a dual Singapore/NZ citizen ? Singapore does not allow dual citizenship…

  30. joostice says:

    Apparently it doesn’t matter what citizenship the custodian holds, my son is a citizen of NZ which Singapore allows up until the age of 21. So in theory she could keep me from having anything to do with him until he is 19 which is another 11 years off. I did ask the Singaporean embassy about dual citizenship to which the reply was we will take care of it – however my Govt still happily punishes one of their own. Once you leave our shores to a country that doesn’t recognize our laws and you can thumb your nose at them why on earth does our Govt allow this. IRD have even said that this is an unusual one and I should see my MP. Other than him who else is should I contact?

  31. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Joostice,

    You are in an intriguing position, which I also similarly faced.
    However,there could be a simple solution, which I initially utilized, if circumstanc allows.

    Please contact me.

    Kindest Regards

    Paul Catton
    South Auckland Refuge for Men with Families
    (09) 269 4411
    021 221 9192

  32. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Joostice, you are taking the legal system too seriously. By doing this, you open yourself up to being seriously psychiatricly damaged and taken advantage of. Be responsible, protect yourself from these thieves.

    It is really important to: Look before you leap and not work by unchecked assumptions. What we might expect, is our own delusion (perhaps created by selfishly dishonest marketing information, such as legislation).

    We need to base our decisions on what actually happens in the real world, thus we need to be well informed. In familycaught$, the unnatural secrecy greatly impedes both women and men from making well informed decisions.

    By the time they find out the truth, it is often too late to reverse their decisions.

    Secrecy is the refuge of scoundrels. Funny, that is what the law society said to Orlov, when he hid behind a legal right to privacy, when he was being prosecuted. Funny how they say this when it suits them and deny it when that suits them?

    For all of the dramatics and clowns in the familycaught$, once your children are out of NZ, there is nothing that you can do to protect them or your relationship with them. Most men find this is true even when their children are in NZ.

    In NZ, the Hague Convention just puts taxpayer’s money into legal worker’s pockets. The illusion of protection just lets more children be abducted and allows legal workers to rort the Government and parents.

    It doesn’t protect children, the Hague Convention just makes NZ children more vulnerable to abduction. The quicker we are rid of it, the safer all NZ children will be. Probably more than 100 children are abducted by a parent each year, over 85% by their mothers. This isn’t competent child protection.

    Children with one or two foreign born parents are at almost 1% risk of international abduction, after separation. This is a horrific figure. This is not acceptable, as part of properly protecting children.

    None of these abducting parents are ever prosecuted, why kill a golden goose? More abductions are resolved by voluntary re-establishment of relationships, than by legal processes and that is not many.

    Think of what needs to be done to protect children, in secret the familycaught$ pretty much does the opposite, to increase extortionate pressure onto parents.

    If NZ parents don’t demand accountability, then this will continue forever, or at least until NZ Government runs out of easy money for legal workers..

    Sorry, MurrayBacon.

  33. blamemenforall says:

    joostice: I would apply to the Family Court to have so-called ‘child support’ stopped. Write the application yourself. Find someone else’s application and copy the format. Buy half-an-hour of a FC lawyer’s time to look over your application and to suggest alterations, then proceed with it yourself. Join Union of Fathers who can provide you with support and advice as a self-litigant.

  34. Paul Catton says:

    Dear blamemenforall,

    You would apply to the Family Court to have Child Support stopped.
    Tell me under what legislation and appropriate application to have negate the support you are reliant upon?
    “Joostice” will need this info to initiate an application to the Court.
    I do not believe there is a standard format for Children (possibly abducted) overseas.
    Currently, I believe that I am the only one that was taken on an issue similar to this to High Court and determination has still never been finalized as it is completely outside the square.

    If Family Court Lawyers are totally flummoxed, ditto for Family Court Judges, and a High Court can only give an opinion which the Family Court wish not to pursue,I believe your advice could be astray.

    Without disrespect to Allan and UoF, I believe this far from any expertise within the ranks for support and advice.

    I would again ask Joostice to make contact to ascertain circumstances that possibly have similarity and thus have a fair bit of groundwork already established.

    In addition, and most impotantly, I would like to commend you blamemenforall for putting forward what you have and having the gumption to respond to Joostice.

    Kindest Regards

    Paul Catton

    South Auckland Refuge for Men with Families
    (09) 269 4411
    021 221 9192

  35. Downunder says:

    Situation reversed if joostice was in Singapore and the mother and child here, would the Singapore governement collect child support? The better way to approach this might be through the Singapore courts.

    I couldn’t see an application to stop child-support suceeding. There is a child (probably a NZ citizen) with a New Zealand passport. Whether the child is in Australia or Singapore, I can’t see a family court judge denying the child financial support from a paying parent, regadless of whether the country is a Hague Convention member or not.

  36. Downunder says:

    A Google search on ‘Singapore Family Law’ brings up some information. Singapore has two different family law systems; i.e. muslim and non-muslim. There are email contacts for law firms. A couple of enquiring emails might get you some information.

  37. blamemenforall says:

    Yes, quite right, I don’t have any knowledge about such cases and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Family Court did nothing useful and the exercise were to be a waste of time. However, that is the only avenue, the Family Court being the only body that has any jurisdication over the IRD in this situation. The IRD will simply demand so-called ‘child support’ in machine-like fashion regardless of exceptional circumstances. The Family Court has the power to order a change.

    I would strongly encourage joostice to make contact with Paul Catton who has been through something similar.

    There may be approaches worth trying. For example, if joostice has had no contact with the child for 3 years, does it need to be established that the child is still alive? The IRD will need to convince the Court of this. Family Court proceedings of this nature will at least draw the mother to make contact, provide information and may allow for some process of negotiation with the mother.

    I note also that planned changes to so-called ‘child support’ will presumably require the IRD to establish the earnings of the receiving parent, and this may be another basis for a Family Court challenge. For example, joostice could allege that the mother’s true earnings in Singapore cannot reliably be determined by NZ authorities in the absence of a reciprocal arrangement, therefore so-called ‘child support’ should be set at the minimum.

    I realise this may all be unrealistic, but still that is what I would do.

  38. Downunder says:

    Interesting comments blameforall. I haven’t read the new Act but do you think an administrative review might be required rather than going to court? Surely a caring parent collecting child support under New Zealand law must be required to comply with the requirements of collecting it.

    That raises the quetion of what process the mother has already complied with, if any or did IRD simply deduct the maximum ammount, the latter knowing their track record.

    They might be questions better asked of the office of the minister of revenue. One would hope the new minister has egaged more efficient and co-opertive staff than the previous poodle.

  39. Downunder says:

    It also raises other questions when you look at international child-support transactions.

    Is this mother claiming a bennefit off another state – i.e. do they have something like the DPB in singapore?

    How will our state behave when it is another state involved rather than the mother?

    The question was asked above is the child still alive, how do we know. If the mother can prove to a foreign state that the father is alive does the foreign state pay the mother what they think she should receive and ask the IRD to recover that ammount of money – if they don’t have a bennefit system.

    Does your child support then become subject to the cost of living or demands of another country rather than your income.

    Did the recent child support ammendment factor in changes aimed at international child-support transaction that we are now becoming aware of through cases like this.

  40. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Bevin,

    The questions you ask are all I have faced., Foringkassen sent me a bill claiming dues, subsequently negated.
    All of the matters previously raised including Habeas Corpus have been presented.
    Let Joostice make contact without further spin.

    Kind Regards
    Paul Catton

  41. glenn woods says:

    hi guys intresting reading my story is an eleven yr ordeal to date i hv never applied for custody just access and hv gained it threw the courts first time was a 2yr battle financialy and emtional batle after selling property moving towns to facilitate contact within 6wks of the order the mother then started process of mvn away from town at this point i decided to go to oz to regroup was away approx 4yrs with no contact i tried by ph as court order awarded with no response on my return i started access process again another 2yr batlle but hv access what a nightmare this system allows the mother to not follow the order and take me to court yr in yr out to try and stop the order which she has been unsuccsesful in at grt expense to myself and partner now the ird taken me for unpaid c/s will it ever end i am one of these dead beat dads with a 40k debt ird dont care that i spnd upto $700 a mth to visit him aproxx 500k away mth in mth out i try and pay c/s and lawyers fess last one in april 6k they just want there money and dont give a rats if my son has no contact with his dad my new partner has been threw this with me for 4yrs now and cant believe how tough it is for ncp so count me in on actions thanks glenn glennwoods68@msn.com

  42. IRDsux says:

    Hi Guys,

    It seems the child support changes are stretched out a further year or two, this started in 2012, now its going to be 2015 maybe 2016. I am paying over $14k a year and if they took the mothers salary into account which is nearly double mine it would be reduced to $1000 a year. Big difference, which is why I am annoyed they keep moving the goal post. I had arranged a trip overseas to take the kids to see their relatives which they have never seen. But now that seems a long way off.

    I have done 3 admin reviews and I am one day off meeting the required shared care by IRD of 40%. So the one day a year I am not allowed to have her costs me over 10,000.

    I can no longer afford daycare etc during the holidays as none of us have 12 weeks holidays, so the kids are now coming to work instead.

    IRD are harming the children, I am keen to go to the next level… tried the court system but as I don’t wear a skirt, my chances were 0.

    My email is GC.3point@gmail.com if anyone has advice.

    Regards

  43. Amanda says:

    Hi Guys.

    My Husband and I are currently going through a battle with IRD. No matter which person you ring, you get a different answer. About 6 months ago he quit his job, and tried to find a new one. This took a couple of months with the odd job here and there, we used to pay CS religiously every fortnight. He has recently found a new full time job, but earning less than he was in the last permanent one. CS want what he was paying a fortnight, now paid weekly. He has been sent several letters, the latest one we received was informing his employer to take out xxx amount of $$s, but dated the day before we even got the letter. So how can a employer do that if he never got the letter in time, and on the note they have said if you do not pay deductions don’t employ said person. Seriously can they bully his employer into forcing him out of his job. We have bills to pay. How does one carry on with this crap. I’m sorry but were so frustrated, and yet there doesn’t appear to be a silver lining in our cloud.

    We are both appalled that they have moved the new changes further from our sights. Since it’s election year they can do want they want, but more to the point they don’t want to loose those valuable votes, to me they aren’t getting mine. Why do they dangle that carrot so close to us, and rip it away further from our reach. I’m seriously thinking about ringing Fair Go, or Campbell Live.

    To all you guys out there, I feel your pain, and it is heartbreaking that you and my husband are unfairly treated. He doesn’t see his son, lost that battle, never got the letter for the court day. We rang the x wife the other day and sorted a personal agreement, but since IRD haven’t received paperwork from her end they can’t process it, but now they have over ridden that decision and still wanting more money than we can give them. So unfair.

  44. al says:

    Has anyone taken the IRD to court regarding breaches on the NZ bill of rights act 1990.

    Section 9 – right not to be subjected to “disproportionately severe punishment” – I would say the fined imposed by the IRD for late payment penalties are a disproportionately severe punishement compared to say a fine for drink driving, etc.

    also section 21 – Unreasonable seizure of property.

  45. Allan Harvey says:

    First year of default IRD Child Support interest rate is 38% subsequent years 27%.
    Makes loan sharks seem reasonable with their interest rates.
    There is a limitation on how much of your salary they can take (maybe 60% of gross) I think.
    I have successfully taken IRD to Court under several statutes, Child Support and Status of Children but never Bill of Rights.

  46. Downunder says:

    We talked about this before and I found the page on the IRD website.

    From memory a paye payer must be left with 60% of net, but the question we didn’t answer was whether the new Child Support Act would avoid that rule?

    It appeared to me, that was what was intended.

  47. Michael Todd says:

    Allan I used the Bill of Rights fact “disproportionate punishment” provision a year ago when I was held in New Zealand against my will for over 6 weeks alleged Child Support debt.In my case I had lived for over the past 7 years overseas and have 2 children overseas as well.
    I am not sure if the Judge used that provision to allow me to leave New Zealand to travel home or not. He did mutter something about it being “unreasonable” I think.
    It is something that could possibly be used more.

  48. richardmills says:

    I would happily contribute to a class action lawsuit against IRD. I am about to embark on a private Family Court challenge to my latest IRD Admin Review, which saw me assessed at ‘potential earnings’ which were three times more than my actual gross (before tax) earnings. Not only that, they saw fit to backdate my assessment. Needless to say, I’m unable to pay even if I didn’t need a roof over my head, food on my table and basics like clothing or heating.

    This inequity has to come to a stop. My ex wife has the house, all the contents, two jobs (including one that is cash under the table), a fiance, a rental property and three cars. I’m having my eftpos card decline at the supermarket. I don’t smoke and I don’t gamble. What’s wrong with the IRD????

  49. Downunder says:

    Who was the review officer that did your ‘assessment’?

  50. GreatFather says:

    Could someone explain how can the IRD estimate earning capabilities is that person is actually not earning such level ?
    If I earn $80k, how could the IRD believe I should earn $120k potentially ?

    Also, does anyone understand the definition of income from 2016 ? Looks like anyone with a business will see its income based on not his salary/wage but its business income. How does that work ? Especially if you need cash for Capex or debt repayment. Cheers

  51. Kumar says:

    http://www.ird.govt.nz/childsupport-changes/share/

    states that ” Although the care each parent provides is taken into account when it is 28% or over, you must be providing a minimum of 35% care to receive child support”

    What does it mean??

  52. OMG! You're *$%&^)&(* says:

    28% of nights, but 35% overall when taking into account days?

  53. Shamus says:

    Wow, there is a whole bunch of parents that the child support act is clobbering pretty hard on here.
    Just bee the lucky recipient of an assessment that puts me at the max income for child support income.
    What is a bit concern is clause 96A from the current version of the Child Support Act.

    96A Commissioner may make determination
    The Commissioner may, in accordance with this Part, make a determination having the effect that all or some of the provisions of this Act relating to formula assessment of child support will be departed from in relation to a child
    .

    This effectively allows the Commissioner (Reviewer) to assess your income any way they want. The recourse for incorrect assessments is then an objection under clause 91 as per below or an Appeal to the Family Court.

    91 Objections to assessments
    (1)An objection to an assessment may be made on any or all of the following grounds, but on no other ground:

    (a)that the amount taken by the Commissioner, for the purpose of assessing the amount of child support payable in any child support year, to be the liable parent’s income amount is incorrect; or
    (b)that the annual or monthly rate of financial support specified in the assessment has not been correctly calculated in accordance with this Act; or
    (c)that the assessment has incorrectly determined the days in relation to which the financial support is payable; or
    (d)that an annual rate of financial support specified in the assessment is not correctly assessed because the Commissioner has failed to give effect to any provision of this Act in relation to the assessment.
    (2)An objection under this section may be made by any person who has been assessed for child support or domestic maintenance.
    (3)Where the assessment objected to under this section is an amended assessment, the person so assessed shall have no further right of objection than that person would have had if the amendment had not been made, except to the extent to which by reason of the amendment a fresh liability in respect of any particular is imposed on that person or an existing liability in respect of any particular is increased.

    All in all a pretty poor system for those of us on the receiving end of a high assessment.
    For those of us that are self employed or have companies that we work thru, IRD are allowed by the act to simply depart from the prescribed procedure of income assessment and use an ‘in house’ assessment process.

    Clause 33 of The Child Support Amendment Act 2013 (set to start in 2015) accurately defines the “adjusted taxable income” as that defined by subpart MB of the Income tax act 2007.
    This link should take you there.
    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/0097/latest/DLM3661999.html

    So if you have been assessed by a departure order, IRD should be using this procedure.
    I expect this is the same adjusted taxable income that IRD will be using for other acts like working for families etc.

    The Amendment act looks like an attempt to patch over some of the inequalities of the previous act and it multiple amendments.
    Consideration has been made of the actual cost of raising children rather than just the blind assessment of a persons “capacity to pay”.

    The Hon Peter Dune has been responsible for most of the Child Support Act changes for many years now.

  54. Downunder says:

    Wow, there is a whole bunch of parents that the child support act is clobbering pretty hard on here.

    How else are politicians going to pay for their kids.

  55. LeeAnn says:

    Hi there, my partner has 3 other kids, and has always paid child support for the two older ones. He isn’t on the birth certificate of the youngest son who is now 13 years old (I don’t think he was around when he was born) but we have always been there for all 3 kids.

    Now the Mum (who is on a benefit) has asked my partner (out of the blue) to sign an IRD form: Acknowledgement of Paternity, to state he is the father of the youngest. We are concerned if he does that, the IRD will make him pay backpay, right back to when the son was born.

    Will he be forced to pay backpay?
    Why would she do this now after 13 years?

  56. golfa says:

    #56. I wouldn’t sign it even if she held a gun to my head. She’s obviously realised that the gravy is about to end with the money he is currently paying for the 2 eldest children.

    However ….. the IRD are a law unto themselves. There are far too many instances when men are “named” as the Father and the IRD will pursue them for Child Support. And it will continue extracting money from them until the man can disprove his paternity. Yes, it’s up to the man to DISPROVE his paternity. While this sounds like its simply a DNA test, the Mother can and often does refuse to “subject the child to such an invasive procedure” (it’s a swab taken on the inside of the cheek !) and what ensues is a drawn out Court battle. And even if the man wins and obtains a Court Order for a DNA test, the Court can’t actually enforce the physical taking of DNA from the child if the parent with day to day care won’t allow it. Although, there is one very smart Lawyer who found a way around it. He won an Application to make a child a Ward of the Court which effectively put the child in the custody of the Court and DNA was taken.

  57. ehud says:

    have been to court twice (not counting judicial conferences) on the oppressive over assessment by the ird . The only way is a departure order under sec 104 , 106 targeting the year in question serving the ird and mother, you can do this any time upto five years . i learnt to be brief outlining the incorrect income determined by ird . remember they have no evidence to prove this and one can claim hardship in supporting ones self . if the mother has no substancial evidence to support this amount when served ,the judge can only go on what he has as proper evidence, and the commissioner has no proof either , and there assessment will not stand in court . court is the only way to fight this hinging on the ird s incorrect assessment. you must make it clear and with out emotional tone in the affidavit outlining the evidence as documents . one page of facts and figures and contradictions against ird , as the mothers verbal evidence contradicts rid usually , and a statement as well outlining what you want to achieve briefly on one page.
    i supposedly owed over85k made an agreement payed a fraction of this, then auto payments I then attacked the one year that caused the problem , 45k down to what i had filed basically for that year which is fair . you must include penalties as well other wise its back to court or and write into ird under sec 135E , other wise the ird will penalise back to year in question. Court is the best does not cost any thing to file your self . do not use a lawyer they are mostly corrupt as I’ve found and will mislead your focus costing more. ask for some support from KIDS need dadz , apply to the court closest to you that isn’t to busy. If you have a partner or wife thats good with spelling and can read over your paper work this helps enormously and to accompany you to court as a mckenzie friend (which you will apply for )and witness and as an extra eyes an ears and support.
    most importantly read the child support act as above and more be familiar with it to your own affairs. say prayers to the christian god , (I’m not joking to help you) even if you have little faith. Don’t be afraid to serve the ird they are just people , using this act. And one day will be under Severe judgment for the oppression and false testimonies they have put forward against families if they do not repent and change. (that doesn’t include retirement)
    cheers

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