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MENZ ISSUES

MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Sun 2nd July 2017

Motion To Amend The Purpose of This Site and to Amend the Governance Policies.

Filed under: General — martin @ 11:04 am

I have not been a member of this site for very long relative to some of the others, but I find that it’s rules are draconian and support adult censorship; specifically the involvement of John Potter who proclaims to own the site and his minions you proclaim to remove content on the grounds that it violates the rules. According to the site’s own proclamation found on the about page:

“the committee (UOF) decided to withdraw from political activism and concentrate on developing support services for separated fathers negotiating the Family Court. Menz.org.nz is now owned and administered by the current webslave John Potter.”

I propose the following:

1) That this in NOT what this site is about, it doesn’t support services for separated fathers, nor does it promote activism. What is really is, is a site for men to express their views and opinions about anything and everything related to all aspects of men’s lives with a bent towards fathers dealing with the injustices presented to men and then more specifically those men who find themselves dealing with broken down relationships and how they are treated by government agencies within NZ.

Therefore I request that the information page and the policies are changed to reflect that actual purpose of the site.

2) Censorship is a harmful thing and goes in the face of one’s fundamental right to freedom of expression. While there are occasions where we are all offended by those you critique us or what our opinions are, that is too bad.

I have been a member of left-wing do-good societies who constitutionally could not expel members who had ideologies that were so opposite to the societies values only to end up entertaining that person’s beliefs instead of rationally asking them to leave. To have asked the person to leave is not censorship, rather it is pragmatic way of dealing with the freedom of expression but in the context of the forum which it belongs.

This:
[ Mod: content removed – discussion about the appropriateness of other’s comments is specifically forbidden]
Does not belong!! This is censorship.

I propose that NO form of censorship is applied to the site, other than where absolutely necessary.

Finally, this is not a complaint about anyone in particular, as I am sure the motivation of those who moderate believe in what they are doing, but I disagree. The site is stale, it is run by left-wing self-centred bureaucrats. Perhaps a new site is what is required, after all John Potter believes he owns this site. He doesn’t own it other than by name and registration of that name. It is actually owned by the people who contribute, without them it would just be a placeholder.

64 Responses to “Motion To Amend The Purpose of This Site and to Amend the Governance Policies.”

  1. Voices back from the bush says:

    Martin, I dont support your application for change to the rules of Menz.
    I find there is little moderation and I’m tremendously greatful that this site exists as advice from others has been very beneficial to me.
    I do agree that there isnt enough activism. But activism is not discouraged by John Potter.
    The solution is not to change this site, but to start another website.

    Ive been quoted a thousand dollars for a wordpress site which I believe is very reasonable.
    I will put in 500 and another 500 for the sites promotion if you and I and others can agree to the purpose for a new site.
    Who’s in?
    Can we agree on a Name for a site with a more active involvement in seeking positive change?
    Suggestions please..

  2. martin says:

    Well Voices,
    Firstly thank you for the prompt response and generous offer, and a good compromise. I work in IT so I might be able to generate a new site. I think the $ towards promotion would be $ well spent. It would not be in competition to this site, but more of a brother site, complementary to all to good work that has gone into this one. Lets start with a proper purpose and the name should follow. I look forward to hearing more from you and others! Great stuff!!

  3. Voices back from the bush says:

    Terrific.
    Id really like ideas with some creative input.

    One idea id like to put forward to promote the site and mens issues is a good old fashoned graffiti campaign.
    I have a scroll saw and can generate professional templates from cardboard or paper.
    White board ink can be purchased in bottles and applied with a small roller.
    This makes the graffiti fast to apply and slightly less illegal as it can be easily removed.

  4. Downunder says:

    We’ve been down this road before, and more recently those people wanting something different started a Facebook page. I think even more than one, and there are other websites around, a little harder to locate, because they don’t have the ‘net presence’.

    There is a simple reality here: the progress you might want, doesn’t come from a website, it comes from a willingness to meet in the same room, and support action.

    Change for men comes from leadership, determination, and sacrifice – sacrifice in particular.

    Menz is bit like a comfort stop really, for those that pass by, we just make sure the place is always open, for those people that need it.

  5. Voices back from the bush says:

    Change for men comes from leadership, determination, and sacrifice – sacrifice in particular.

    I have offerered my time creative input and cash.

    Do you have anything positive you would like to contribute?

  6. Downunder says:

    How you getting on with that last website you were involved with Buster?

  7. Micky says:

    Thanks Martin!

    Men usually find this site as a result of losing time with their kids. When men put what would generally be considered as offensive or aggressive comments in writing and a Judge sees it – they lose time with their kids.

    We are fighting against sexism and discrimination – therefore there is no intelligent argument for making sexist or derogatory comments as some type of counter measure.

    A more important concern is that Labour and the Greens who voted down a equal parenting bill in 2001 are lining up to reopen the Slaughter House as soon as they get back into power. Jacinda Ardern, Metiria Turei and Jan Logie are openly campaigning to reverse Legal Aid reforms. And that is not good news for men and children.

    Motion to overhaul the look and feel of the website completely. Modernise it and advocate for 50/50 parenting.

  8. Downunder says:

    Don’t offer, step up and do, if that is what is needed.

    Something costructive to offer?

    A website is a lot of work. Your return will be disproportionate to your time and effort, but it may help you feel better.

  9. Voices back from the bush says:

    Motion to overhaul the look and feel of the website completely. Modernise it and advocate for 50/50 parenting.

    I disagree – partially.

    I like the look and feel of this site.
    50/50 parenting is just one issue that men encounter.

    I would advocate as strongly for awareness of male victims of domestic violence.

  10. martin says:

    All good stuff and mostly valid.

    Buster in John’s defence, convicted therefore I would assume duly punished, repentant and so lets give the guy a break. Police are more than welcome to monitor, in fact more than welcome to contribute. I’m there are pretty sympathetic police out there. They can use there own judgement and point out anything they believe to be illegal. My understanding is that we are still allowed to form websites for the purpose of support for men and to actively point out contradictions and issues with the judicial and social system. Buster, while I don’t share the implied opinion in 6, I still value your contribution.

    Facebook is for, well – nothing really. I don’t use, will never use it. Go stick that on your wall :p Define it’s purpose and I’ll give you a chocolate fish.

    Downunder – point taken about meeting up etc. It doesn’t have to be a new website or meetings, it can be both. For example I was up in Auckland last week and caught up with Hornet, whom I’d never met before. A great guy and very approachable. Didn’t take much to do and could be the start of a good friendship.

    On a final note: it is easy to criticise and point out that others have failed. Everyone fails until they succeed. To quote from Macbeth – “If we should fail?” “We fail!”

    So what we have is a need for a site that :
    1) promotes activism in some form
    2) Is specific in its purpose
    3) Is owned by its members
    4) promotes change to the injustices to all people but specifically to men in NZ but also throughout the world
    5) Only precludes those who clearly demonstrate fundamental differences of opinion or anti-group propaganda – e.g. it is not a place for feminist ideology
    6) encourages regular face to face meetings
    7) provides real support for men in need – e.g. a place for those who are feeling suicidal, hopeless or need good advice on dealing with “the system”
    8) does not discriminate based on race, sex, religion or sexual preference, but includes only those who believe in the cause.

    All these are just a start for “8”, and would be happy for someone to correct or add as required.

  11. Micky says:

    I asked for a few comments to be moderated on the basis that it plays into the hands of ultra feminists… a guy named Buster calling Maori’s niggers… referring to feminists as rug munchers etc… it’s not helpful and not something I want to be part of.

    Ultimately I guess if this is fundamentally a no holds barred blogging website… keep it that way… all the best guys!

  12. Downunder says:

    @Martin if you look at the previous post ‘Death of a Child’ (comment 4 I think) my comment linking to a previous post.

    You will see the previous post was written in August 2014. It took 6 months to produce that post, following up on Phil Kitchen’s initial work, which you will see is no longer available at Stuff.

    Someone mentioned Jan Logie. You will find pages, documenting the process, what happened, who was involved, and what is intended.

    Just saying … and that’s way more polite than what I’m thinking.

  13. Voices back from the bush says:

    If I may, it is due to my respect for this site, for its moderator and contributors that I made the suggestion that another site would be a more appropriate forum for “stronger” activism.

    For example if I promote a grafitti campaign and get in trouble for it, I might shed a bad light upon those who wouldnt involve themselves.

    Strong statments- are also required to draw attention as Paul Elam and Trump have proven to utilise.

    [Voices] I agree with you comments. But also note, I can also go in an add or delete comments and reword what you have said. Not what I would call secure!! Surely you would want to have your post “posted” intact without censorship and manipulation. Sorry to have to show it as it is, but not betterway to get the required impact.
    (Martin).

  14. Man X Norton says:

    Micky @15: I agree. We have had contributors from time to time who have provided abusive and usually quite stupid comments. Without exception they ended up becoming abusive to others on the site, especially those who asked (reasonably) for some care to be taken to protect the site and others who contribute, both their reputation and risk of police, Family Court or other official intervention.

    Those who use abusive name-calling etc may well be trolls or plants whose aim is to discredit the site and its contributors, or perhaps even provoke official intervention such as increased police monitoring or harassment of other contributors.

    Abusive, short-sighted contributors soon end up being banned for breaking the site’s sensible and modest rules about attacking others etc, or end up leaving because they never had any real interest in helping with men’s issues, certainly not enough to remain somewhat respectful and reasoned. As a result of them moving on, the site has had periods in which intelligent and insightful discussions have flourished. That has been the case until quite recently, and will happen again if contributors like you maintain their involvement. I really hope you will keep contributing.

  15. Voices back from the bush says:

    Martin,calling Man X Norton a fool is not going to help any cause.
    He is probably the contributor that I have the most repect for his views.
    In protest, I will not contribute to this page further unless I see an apology from you.

    Play the ball- not the man.

    Those rules are fair in my view.

  16. Downunder says:

    In this case it was in the top line:

    I have not been a member of this site for very long

    … by this stage I’m thinking, we have a problem Houston.

  17. Jerry says:

    I do not see any contributions from Man x Norton in this thread – so why is that contributor being picked on so personally/ nastily? As for meeting up – I would not take what I consider to be a serious risk, by meeting any of you. Viscious personal stuff going on. And as Micky pointed out, its a gift you give to the ultra feminists.

  18. martin says:

    Micky @11, yes I read your post and seem to be getting mixed messages – would be happy for you to comment if I misunderstand
    1) You don’t want to be part of a website that allows bigotry and degrading speech
    2) You applaud a website that is no holds barred.
    If I was to take that at face value, you agree in principle to a no holds barred website, but you wouldn’t want to contribute to such?

    I personally don’t agree with what was allegedly said by Buster (sorry Buster if that was not the case), but I cannot be held accountable for his opinion nor should the owner of the website.

    I believe the way to deal with such would be to read around trashy statements have been made and try to discourage the author in a positive manner. Perhaps suggesting that the perpetrator (I don’t like picking on any individual) edit there comment, inviting them to a private thread to discuss who deconstructive the comments are, but censorship is NOT the way. This is my view. Thanks for your contribution however, leaves me to think some more about what mechanisms could / should be employed.

  19. JohnPotter says:

    If you look at the top of every page, you will see that this website is about:

    promoting a clearer understanding of men’s experience

    It is not a democracy. Anyone is welcome to start their own site and promote it here.

    The reason there is a rule about not making comments about the appropriateness of other’s contribution is that when they get removed (as some have been in this thread), your comments won’t make sense.

    People who repeatedly break the rules get banned.

    Buster/Brent will not be commenting here any more.

  20. Downunder says:

    Promoting a clearer understanding of the men’s experience is a purpose.

    To promote a clearer understanding … would be a slogan.

  21. DJ Ward says:

    Martin, sometimes it’s better with the devil you know.
    You will find it difficult to find any site with such open and broad in subject discussion and information as this. Editing or censorship is minimal, required if John Potter receives a compliant (he can’t afford to be sued). In my case I have been censored for very good reasons.
    The operator John Potter has been very understanding when having to deal with my personnel issues and I’m thankful for that. It may be the case that security is weak but that’s an area where someone with IT skills could help out.
    Menz is a public record of our ongoing experience as men in New Zealand as well as globally.
    Together we try to help people experiencing immediate issues.
    Help people come to decisions about there lives.
    Collate research.
    Examine the media and reporting on men’s issues.
    Inform people about meetings or protests.
    Examine laws and as individuals make submissions.
    Etc etc
    This site is the only one like it.
    Starting a new site would be like opening a library without books.
    I’ll add another book to this library.

    http://www.realsexism.com

  22. Man X Norton says:

    Re: The post at the head of this thread.
    The claim that MENZ Issues doesn’t support activism is false. I am aware that various activist events including protests outside parliament, street campaigns and conferences have been announced here and there’s nothing to stop that continuing. The problem is not with this site, it’s with those who don’t make the effort to turn up to most of these events at which low numbers then look a bit pathetic and don’t get media coverage. Starting a new site is unlikely to change that, but who knows?

    The claim that this site doesn’t support services for separated fathers is false. The site itself is a support forum for separated fathers and many have expressed appreciation for that support. Also, the site constantly advertises and links to a number of other organisations that provide such support.

    The idea that it’s not censorship to expel people because you don’t like their views or comments, is false.

    Breaking up the men’s movement is the last thing we need IMHO. However, those willing to risk police or state harassment may want to set up a different site as suggested.

  23. Micky says:

    Thanks Martin,

    Most people would consider hacking into a system and displaying peoples private details unethical… the Police would perhaps even consider it illegal. I think someone who would go to those lengths because someone disagrees with them is dangerous, and probably would have an inclination to stalk their ex obsessively and aggressively in a similar manner. At least – that’s how a Judge would see it.

    However, I agree with you that it is weak and cowardly to hide behind an alias. I believe in free speech so long as it does not infringe on the Human Rights of others. My objective is to ensure fathers get to see their kids. If I wanted to see people slagging each other off – I would visit any youtube page. Hope that helps clarify my perspective for you.

  24. martin says:

    Micky, for you I will make an exception. I see your comment as the typical irrational behaviour and thought processes displayed on this site.
    1) I did not hack into any system, that was my very point you don’t need to.
    2) I am happy to be investigated by the police, because ultimately it is a judge who decides on whether a crime has been committed. In general, the police are not so stupid.
    3) You should be a FC judge, because a statement such as “probably would have the inclination to stalk …” is as bad as me saying that “John is a risk to children” (sorry John) but I could not draw such a ridiculous conclusion
    4) Are you a judge (note not a capital letter j)? Even if you were can you speak for judges? You see it is idiotic statements like that that should be ridiculed on this site.
    5) I never said it was weak and cowardly….I said that the site is not as secure as it should be.
    6) Happy for you to explain “free speech as long as it does not infringe on the human rights of others” Again no capitalisation.
    7) What about fathers who don’t deserve to see their kids?
    8) I hope that clarifies my perspective for you.

  25. martin says:

    @17 Downunder, what a silly thing to say.

  26. voices back from the bush says:

    Martin,
    Twice today you have made this claim:

    This is my last post

    Show some intergrity.

  27. Downunder says:

    Throw him out of the castle, from the top of the wall, and let him land in the moat. It he doesn’t drown, throw rocks at him.

    Family Law is as vicious and draconian as the Dark Ages. Cast out into a wilderness that is unfathomable to those living inside the sophistication of the castle.

    To understand this and come to terms with it, is a different process for each man.

    It leaves each man in a different place, isolated by its individual cruelty, and comparatively irrelevant to the others, and with some fighting with those closest to them, because they cannot fight the enemy.

    How long does it remains that hard? A question we must each answer for ourselves.

    On the up side, the comedy is amusing the tower guards.

  28. Jerry says:

    Quoting Martin @24; “Micky, for you I will make an exception”.
    Who the hell does Martin think he is? Who is he that he might think himself in such a position that he can “Make-exceptions”. Maybe this has gone on so long because the rest of the community [and site administrators] have been charitably making exceptions for Martin. Micky’s contributions have been excellent, and polite such that the rest of the community can work with him in my view. Lacking IT expertise, I too assumed that something like “hacking would be required to obtain our details” – but assuming Martin is right that it does not, then what a trivial glitch siezed upon eagerly by an IT expert. A glitch a non-IT type would not notice. Its one thing to know how and where to look for such data, its quite another to publish it so all can see it without bothering to even want to look it up. I note the addresses for the several vexatious and presumably feminist trolls was not published by Martin. Whatever, the wrestling of super-egos on this site is a supreme gift to aid feminism and does nothing to further the cause we are all meant to be loyal to and working for. Rather it paralyses our real work, puts it aside, in order that the “Top-dog” can gain command. As I see it, we are simply making “own-goals” since to evidence their anti-male rhetoric, feminists only need to refer bystanders to MENZ to see the male ego at it most self destructive worst.

  29. Downunder says:

    I think ego gets a bad name sometimes – we all have one.

    It is a sense of self.

    Yes, some men do use it in a fight for superiority.

    For others it is a fight for that sense of self.

    For some, I think, a fight within one’s self.

    It’s possible, that when we see it at its worst, it’s at its weakest?

  30. allan harvey says:

    Kia ora Martin,
    It is clear this is John’s site. He provides it, he sets the rules, he is very tolerant of respectful discussion.
    I found this site in 2002, it was a key to opening different doors for me and for my children.
    It is amazing the number of visitors who find the site. I get calls from people most weeks from someone who has found my number here. Media contact me about once a month for a male perspective having come across MENZ.
    It is what it is and is definitely not a democracy.
    It is amazing the various needs it serves, the leads it generates, the thinking it exposes.
    Thank you John for your many many years of service and loyal support of open ideas and debate.
    With gratitude, Allan

  31. MurrayBacon says:

    The claim that MENZ Issues doesn’t support activism is false. I am aware that various activist events including protests outside parliament, street campaigns and conferences have been announced here and there’s nothing to stop that continuing. The problem is not with this site, it’s with those who don’t make the effort to turn up to most of these events at which low numbers then look a bit pathetic and don’t get media coverage. Starting a new site is unlikely to change that, but who knows?

    I think Man X Norton sums up the history of men’s activism painfully and very well.
    John said the prime objective is understanding men’s experience. The critical point being that there are many different experiences, all of which should be considered. So we must listen and show respect while we listen, or nothing will ever be gained. This is the starting point for working together.
    Sad that not so much working together actually happens. We need to take improvement seriously, but not too seriously?

    On the up side, the comedy is amusing the tower guards.

    True, but we can still rise above that, if we choose……
    MurrayBacon – frustrated axe murderer.

  32. MurrayBacon says:

    With gratitude, Murray.

  33. Downunder says:

    No Murray, that is not summed up well at all.

    This is my protest is a lone stand.

    The unreported UOF protests at the Tauranga Court are a functional example where a group of Fathers on preorganised days, turned up at lunchtime, and participated in silent marches around the corridors of the court building.

    That was very effective at that time, but that’s 15 – 20 years ago.

    I’VE organised this, turn up if you want, is not the way to get cooperation from other men. When you get guys in a room, and get an understanding that there is common ground, you’ll get action.

  34. allan harvey says:

    Yes our early UoF protests worked extremely well and did create movement in how unrepresented litigants were treated before the Court, how Lay Assistants (McKenzie Friends) were accepted and did lead to some positive developments in CoCA (Care of Children Act 2004) which was the successor to the Guardianship Act.
    Arguably the revision of the Child Support Act was also a result of protest and agitation even if the changes are a mixed bag.
    I fear the Whanau and Family Violence Bill will not have such positive benefits and may be retrograde. That I suspect is because we have less numbers on the ground agitating.
    In 2001-2003 there would sometimes be 60 plus men at the Tuesday night UoF meetings in Tauranga. There was over 200 activist on our database then. We haven’t seen such numbers since.

  35. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Downunder, I take your point that stronger determination to work together is made by being together in a room. I recall many shared dinners that contributed to mutual understanding and respect. These happened due to the unusual generosity of some individuals.
    However, respect is still a valuable contributor to being able to patiently listen, be tolerant, understand and appreciate other people’s experiences. That is the starting point, to being able to work together.
    This is why it is very important that we learn from each other, gather stories and evidence and make sure that these are available to the present and future, faithfully recorded and in good condition. This website makes a major contribution to this experience and information sharing.
    We seem to be faltering at the point of meeting together. Very unfortunate. Many missed opportunities. We need to take the next steps.
    But I still want to kill him……… Oops, my tourettes is still showing through.

  36. Downunder says:

    @Murray stop getting all wishy-washy.

    You don’t have to respect someone, to have an acceptance, that what happened to him was,

    Unfair
    Unreasonable
    Unjust
    Unacceptable

    Call it what you like, and for some, they don’t give a toss about respect, so put that aside and show an understanding of what they know, that they got screwed over.

  37. Evan Myers says:

    I recall the great vote-hunter Richard Prebble, in his desperate hour, using the expression, the touchy-feely side of the men’s movement.

  38. MurrayBacon says:

    People that work effectively together, always have a basic respect for each other, if not a lot more.
    Partly we are playing with words.
    Mainly we are playing with achieving nothing. Which is the main point of this post?
    Hissing and spitting without a name is boring. It certainly doesn’t sound like living.
    May the John’s of the world unite and achieve something? I hope that I can help. I am with the ones with names…. [deliberately ambiguous and deranged.]

  39. WrongGender says:

    I think the issue here is not the site itself
    .
    Martin raises good points about security and being able to see each other’s email addresses or contact detail is unacceptable.
    I vote to assist john Potter if need be to upgrade the site security.

    This is not simply because you might think you do not care about people seeing what you post. But if any of you is using the same credentials here and password and use it to log on to other sites; there is danger.
    — Further, my first posts here got taken to a judge and he was not impressed —
    — Cost me time without my kids as it showed intent to disobey a court order —
    — I know it is bull shit for courts to take accounts of this… —
    — But when you are on the back foot, the last thing you want is having to justify yourself -furhter–

    Nonetheless, privacy is an issue.
    BUT
    users, having now been appraised, can now make informed decisions whether they choose to post or not or continue to use the site

    As far as ownership of site, it is already determined. Owner does not only own site but he also contributes, monitors and provides a facility which services we are able to use for free.

    I believe we can only offer him assistance or accept for him to charge a fee for his services if we wish to burden him with more costs. And that would be fair.

    As far as poster. I think he gets drunk regularly (lack of impulse control)and is simply here for attention seeking (dysfunctional coping mechanisms).
    I would have liked to vote to get him banned temporarily but I also know he is going through a very rough time.

    It is plainly evident he is scared and freaked out of his mind and very hurt.
    So we must on our own accord grant him temporary insanity claims before he makes them.

    Part of our purpose here is to aid and support each other and that is partially what this site is designed for.

    Men are being wounded by the dozen daily either through the FC of the DVA Act of 95.

    And each one of us copes differently. And so even though he seems to want to upset everyone and make enemies, I most certainly believe he will come around. Given time.

    So yeah, let’s thread lightly and have fun….

    Hearty hug to you Martin. We ALL* love you!!!!!

    Last point, I vote to remove any post that exposes private details of any poster.
    I am sure it has been done already…
    so for any further posts from Martin, censorship is a must.

    Live and let live – love and rock n roll.
    Rock on Martin. You got a fan here!!!!!

  40. WrongGender says:

    Thinking of it though, kudos to Martin to arouse so many spirited replies…
    I assume it incidentally makes this site rank higher in most search engines…
    I remember at one stage wanting to complain about the complacency of some posters here whom seem to have been so wounded by the FC that they consider anyone that is willing to challenge the system to be a threat to their own mental and moral equilibrium.
    But this is not to do with the site, rather with each individual experience.

  41. MurrayBacon says:

    I think he gets drunk regularly…So we must on our own accord grant him temporary insanity claims before he makes them.

    I’m not putting up with this. I get drunk often, not just regularly. Also, I am permanently insane, let there be no doubt…..

    Definitely heading in the right direction, thank you. Lots of really good points made above.
    Although I want to respect people’s requests for privacy, I do believe from seeing examples, that giving names and hanging together protects best from the base clowns and thieves among us.

  42. Jerry says:

    @39; I agree that some of what Martin and others said was good, but I cannot consider him a “people person” not the kind to work with others or even respect them. Yet a site like this is all about everyone working together, hoopefully encouraging positive brain-storming – hopefully respectfully and safely.
    Of course I also agree its always good to have better security. While we all share that wish, be aware that there is actually no privacy and no security from the authorities. I have a file copy which reveals my phone and internet was monitored. We never knew until we read it. This was attributed to Ministry of Internal Affairs. So if they want your communications, they can intercept them anyway.
    Also in a recent other post on this site, a comment was made that people should not hide behind pseudonyms. Pseudonyms are justified for those in a vulnerable situation on this site and elsewhere. While pseudonyms won’t be any obstacle to the authorities, it might at least be helpful in stopping your ex from quoting you in court.
    As for things we can do. Well for a time I went quiet and simply watched. During this I could have wept at the number of media items which were worthy of discussion and comment. Some were golden opportunities, but nobody else appeared to have noticed. They were not at all mentioned. The site was so distracted with inter-personal trivia and one-upsmanship.
    Its probably obvious that I have no IT experience. However I suggest the group investigate if setting up a site – maybe using Whale-oil” as a model could be a worthwhile idea. Objective to critique the news, official policy, legislation new and amended; and other issues such as statistical cherry-picking/manipulation and so on. It could perhaps be a place for media to go to for the male perspectives on issues. Some of us are already involved in that – would this help them?

  43. Downunder says:

    I think Martin said something about meeting Hornet, and it would be a surprise if that didn’t scare the shit out of anyone (not that I have any doubts about Hornet’s experience), mine is equally chilling.

    This drama about security is a lemon looking for a place to go sour. The fact that you’re visible and in contact with this site is of more benefit than being isolated – they’re not looking for bad press.

    As Murray points out, we’re just a bunch of guys generally disagreeing with each other.

    That’s better than us all agreeing and being seriously wrong. Mostly I think disagreement comes from having an answer and deciding not to look any further.

    Business as normal is probably the best way to go.

  44. MurrayBacon says:

    The two people who seemed, on first meeting, the most deranged I have ever met, with a little patience turned out to be far more capable than first impressions suggested.

    One would intersperse conversations with a sentence like “I murdered a man last week”, about every 15 minutes. I knew that he had had a long and fairly stable marriage.
    At first I was very cautious and expected very little. He was father of over 5 children. He had had a car accident during his teenage years, resulting in serious brain injury. If I chose to totally ignore the disconnected sentences, what he said was sensible and lucid. Maybe his intelligence wasn’t top end, but given the violent traumas that he had lived through, it was a miracle that he was still alive.
    For all of his limitations, he was unusually meticulous in keeping of his records, despite system provocation that would destroy most fathers. He really did have his strengths and persistence. But I could see in his paperwork, that several professionals had just discarded him as a parent and his apparently quixotic character had dominated their evaluation of him and led to serious errors being made.

    Another father couldn’t string three sentences together, without breaking down in anger and threatened violence. I was perturbed. But on listening to “his story” for half an hour, he started to quieten. By an hour, he seemed as settled as most fathers who have had idiots meddling unaccountably in their family lives. I sure was astonished at the fairly quick transformation and how easily it occurred. We had a practical and sensible discussion…

    In a few days, I heard the original wounded noises happening again.

    In my opinion and experience, respect has huge value. Maybe noises of violence and rage are only minor distractions, when there is a job to be done? Lets focus on what is important and not be distracted by side issues. Lets work by human standards.

  45. Downunder says:

    You’d have to be superhuman to get over bare feet and white shorts, Murray.

  46. Spaz says:

    Hi Guys, not too sure where to post but I have some issues with CS and I don’t thin I’m alone….Since our parenting order I now have my daughter on about 130 nights a year but the succubus wont recognise this for IRD purposes, I have also been contributing to half of all my daughters schooling costs, am I the fool here?

  47. Micky says:

    Hi Spaz, I think the IRD cut off for shared care is 42%… so you are about 16 or so nights off… Judges are ex lawyers so they know exactly how to give you just under the cut off… Particularly if your Judge is older and male. An example of this is I had always had my kids overnight on a Wednesday. Yet after a hearing with a Judge named Grant Fraser I could have them for 5 nights in a row one week, but the Wednesday of the 2nd week I could only have them from 3pm-6pm. Sneaky huh?

  48. Paul Catton says:

    I was an anonymous entity, being shredded by family court practitioners as a pack but displaying individual separation
    My suicide plan and execution didn’t pan out.
    Policing units were despatched from intel by family, my abode was stormed and I was “rescued”.
    The previous day ” Protected People” under a court sanctioned “Protection Order” forced their way into my home and I was arrested for a breach with prosecution mandated.
    After my “rescue” and subsequent release from custody and moving to ultra secure premises to let the dust settle, I found MENZ on the internet, from there I found Jim Bagnall (RIP) and offered my limited experience to assist others.
    North Shore Men’s Centre was our first venue.
    Realisaton set in at my first attendance that the problem is bigger than my circumstances.
    Activism was required, hence with Andrew (RIP) who took on board my suggestion take protesting away from Court Buildings but back to the home of any practioner to family law being cause to injustice.
    I predominantly funded the protest participation that actually got overseas recognition.
    Ended up as lead speaker outside ” Aunty Helens” home, more police and media than protesters
    Funding a Political party was more expensive but fit the realm.
    Having then to take an active role, was not priceless but mileage.
    Running a refuge for “men under threat of violence” indicated an arrest in West Auckland was a no-no.
    East Auckland for (3 years) then South Auckland for similar,
    We were successful in providing sanctuary and ability to forge onward for more than a few that crossed our door.
    I have had many numerous interactions with Downunder, Murray Bacon and countless others and presumably more than most.
    Perhaps Martin (or any) would like to sound off:
    021 221 9192
    68a Weymouth Road
    Manurewa
    Auckland
    (NB call first, don’t just rock up).

  49. martin says:

    Jerry, I think that’s a little harsh

    but I cannot consider him a “people person” not the kind to work with others or even respect them.

    isn’t that like the tea-pot calling the kettle “non-white”?
    This has all been very amusing, from the lack of security, to the (and again I say this respectfully so John) the biased censorship.
    As I posted earlier, though it was removed, it was Voices that raised the idea of anew site, which I believe is necessary – WordPress is so last century. John has done a great job, but so did fob watches. One (and this will wind up Voices (pun intended) last comment:
    I drink therefore I am!
    Let he who is without sin…..

  50. martin says:

    Paul- Sorry to hear of your story and plight. However why would I want your address and phone number? If you wish to display these that’s your prerogative, what I was pressing for was if you didn’t want them displayed then that should be catered for better than it is.
    I’ll remember to call first.

  51. JohnPotter says:

    Martin, your statement “WordPress is so last century” demonstrates perfectly how far others should rely on your technical expertise.

    WordPress was first created in 2003 (ie: this century).

    Currently (3rd July 2017) WordPress is used by 59.2% of all the websites whose content management system is known by w3techs.com. This is 28.3% of all websites.

  52. martin says:

    John, that statement could well be said at the time of the introduction of the word processor over the typewriter. Such a response just indicates how poorly you have implemented this site, it’s shameful like your past. What was your adage: Play the ball not the man – you ignorant excuse for a human being.

  53. Man X Norton says:

    Martin @ 52: Your personal attacks are unpleasant, unacceptable and unintelligent.

    Your approach to censorship is interesting, attacking anyone who expresses an opinion, provides information or reasoned argument that you don’t like and suggesting that your new site will expel anyone whose opinion you don’t like.

    I really hope you set up your new site soon and end your destructive presence here. This nonsense is the last thing needed by men facing all their issues.

  54. Downunder says:

    @JohnPotter almost 30% that’s a big increase from the 15% 2-3 years ago, and that’s a good indication not only of it’s rate of development, but the increased potential to future proof in an uncertain world.

    There’s often confusion between what’s lost in the mass of open source, and what is more easily available through interception, but fortunately you are grounded in reality.

  55. Downunder says:

    @Martin … Mr Catton’s phone number will do you a lot less harm, than what you’re doing to yourself at the moment.

  56. Spaz says:

    Ok, well we er hum, not much solidarity here….I see we all just have to put up with the CS, BS

  57. martin says:

    What you all are NOT seeing, is John posting outrageous comments then withdrawing them, only to leave my rebuttals. That is unethical, editing leaving all you poor sheep to follow blindly.

    The popularity of WordPress has nothing to do with it’s performance or security features, it is a good entry level CMS (that’s content management system). What we have here is a poor implementation by a person who is as broken as his site.

    Downunder get off the grass.

    Man X Norton, since who haven’t seen what John originally wrote, I wouldn’t comment. You too are having the wool pilled over your eyes.

  58. martin says:

    TO JOHN POTTER:

    Simply expose what you have done John and others decide:

    1) Did you are did you not alter your comment @51 ? Answer yes or no will suffice.
    2) Did you remove my ability to alter entries in my own comments? Again yes or no will work.
    3) Do you accept that way you have implemented this site has left fundamental gaps in the security and privacy of peoples personal information, as I have exposed? Try to keep the answer to yes or no John, I don’t think we need weasel words.
    4) Do you believe you have sound ethics when it comes to your management of this site, in light of your manipulation, misrepresentation and vested self-interest? No need to answer that John the answers to 1-3 will answer 4.

    Removing / manipulating this comment only weakens your case John.

  59. Evan Myers says:

    Martin, we look forward to having a look at your new website – if we’re allowed, that is.

    Perhaps you should just leave the silly people to their silly little games.

    Not sure if they operate at your level, but no doubt the alternative, along with your inspirational leadership, will eventually bring them to a greater understanding.

    Please, don’t make me eat my words, Martin.

  60. Allan Harvey says:

    Martin,
    John generously provides the ball for our interaction.
    He occasionally plays referee.
    You are welcome to set up your own system and provide the ball for people to come and kick around with you.
    We are not that concerned about side conversations you have with the referee.
    I (read the royal we if you choose) accept that the system has dealt to you and processed you via the sausage factory. Your experience about that is welcome and possibly may be therapeutic to share.
    It is a fairly impressive thread here that garners 50 plus posts in a few days but the message is also clear. John owns the ball, we are grateful for his loyalty and service to this community. If you wish to shock horror “pick up the ball and run with it” that is another game entirely. We look forward to you letting us know about that game and where it plays and the rules it has at a later date. Allan

  61. DJ Ward says:

    All this absolutely rubbish, power and control, ego driven dribble is absurd.
    It reminds me of a well displayed emotion.

    Yoda watches, then begins looking towards the ground, displaying a noticible shake of his head. Yoda turns his back on his apprentice and walks away.

  62. WrongGender says:

    Yoda turns his back on his apprentice and walks away.

    true wisdom… in motion

  63. Lukenz says:

    I would prefer a site that promoted egalitarianism. A doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. rather than something that is hard line against a person because of their gender or because some woman did you wrong.

    At the moment there are woman who suffer at the hands of men like you wouldn’t believe. And there is the state who does not hold men as important more than woman in almost all areas ranging from access to their own children (some by very good reason might I add) prison sentences, boys education and a suicide rate for men that is still growing.

    If I was to turn a blind eye to woman being left hugely disadvantaged or made to pay more or give up more than 50% I would be as guilty as hard line second generation feminists who do not care about males.

    The best outcome for men, woman our kids is equality. A society that looks out for one another and a state that does not discriminate because of your gender.

    There really needs to be a society that provides and cares for anyone regardless of your sex. A society that doesn’t leave men behind to struggle on their own and at the same time does not allow woman to infringe on parental rights, take half of a persons property and belongings before you met just because you were sleeping together or leaving in a relationship for a couple of years.

    Yep, I know men on this site men have been seriously left to hang out and dry. Some even sent to court and some to prison because of a falsehood or manipulation of the truth. Others who have committed suicide because it was too much to for them to cope with loosing their children.

    But if men and woman can just move forward from their grief and anger, egalitarianism is the right outcome.

  64. Downunder says:

    Perhaps that should be a post, there’s a comment about that here on another post.

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