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Tue 8th June 2010

Man sets himself alight in Brisbane

Filed under: Law & Courts,Men's Health — Vman @ 6:45 pm

A MAN set himself on fire outside of Brisbane’s Supreme Court complex after an unfavourable family court decision, according to witnesses at the scene.

It sounds like he sat down for a while and thought about it quietly. Then he set himself alight.
90 percent of his body was burned. He was taken to hospital where he died of his injuries.

It seems all but confirmed that this guy got shafted by the family court and decided there was no real future for himself.
I should be optimistic that the truth of this will come out. I mean in a civilised society the reasons would be identified and changes to the system made.

156 Responses to “Man sets himself alight in Brisbane”

  1. Gerry says:

    This poor guy just physically did to himself what the Family Caught system had already done to him (and countless other men) emotionally, mentally and pyschologically.

  2. dad4justice says:

    I believe it’s in the publics’ best interests to expose the sordid world of a sinister Family Court as research shows the dishonest Court is directly responsible for the escalating male suicide rate.How many kiwi men forced into your killing ground Court killed themselves last year Judge Boshier? Was it 18 or 19!

  3. Skeptik says:

    Apart from the tragic suicide itself there are some very disturbing aspects to this situation.
    Notice how in this news report police are quoted as saying his suicide had nothing to do with court matters! We’re supposed to believe that? Yeah right!
    What arrogant BS!!! Only the man himself would know for sure his motives for suicide.
    Also I scoured the online news sources for Brisbane, Queensland and Australia this morning and there’s nothing, nada, nix, nowt, not a single twitter from news agencies following up with any background on the man, his circumstances.
    Now isn’t that odd?
    If it were a woman who’d killed herself by setting themselves on fire outside a court building would the police be saying it wasn’t related to court matters? I doubt it. And precisely how long would it take for journos to pen a follow up about her life circumstances – a day, two days, three?
    There’d be a race to get to print details of her tragic life and death probably painted in victim hues!
    He acted out his worthlessness as a man a most dramatic way.
    The unfolding journalistic negligence only confirms it socially.

  4. Phoenix says:

    One witness said the man, who had a ”calm” expression on his face, built a ”little barbecue” around himself before using methylated spirits and a lighter.

    And no one tried to stop him? Doesn’t this alone show how callous and uncaring western society has become?

    The courts over there should consider themselves lucky that this poor man didn’t kill himself INSIDE the court building.

  5. Scott B says:

    all they need to do is burn bras and the media care! This man and father burnt himself!

  6. Skeptik says:

    Let me explain a little further as I’ve had friends in the journo profession.
    What usually happens in a case as dramatic as this is it get’s an initial report as it has done already.
    Then the journalist/s get to work on digging up background info i.e. Who was he? What do people in his life say? How are they reacting? This gets teased out over subsequent days to keep the story ‘warm’ in the publics mind.
    Sorry, no awful pun intended it’s just a figure of speach.
    Then after a while when the editor thinks there’s sufficient detail there a full blown story which takes up a page or two replete with photos, analysis and perhaps even readers comments.
    I know it’s only been a day but the signs aren’t encouraging so far. There’s only been the one official background statement – the bullshit arrogant cop quote which I provided a link to earlier in this thread. This leads me to suspect this is VERY embarrassing for the authorities over in QLD and they’ll try to damp it down ASAP. It’ll be ‘managed’ by their PR people who may try different tactics such as throwing out some distracting ‘news’ of another sort.
    Let’s see how this develops.

  7. julie says:

    Dear Skeptic, you are so beautiful because you are stepping up and I want to encourage you to keep going.

    Here are some more stories to add to this tragic story. Men have no support.

  8. Scott B says:

    Maybe we should organise a mass burning of wallets, to show our disgust over child tax, and something else symbolic to show our disgust of the Family court… I mean women’s court! Whatcha reckon?

  9. Scott B says:

    We need to up the anti before any more men lose their lives and chilren lose their fathers. All non violent action of course!

  10. Skeptik says:

    Scott,
    Thank-you.
    Men burning wallets outside courts – That’s a brilliant idea!
    You can include credit cards, grocery lists, receipts and other forms of monetary documents to show child tax oppression – outside the femily caught preferably.

  11. Scott B says:

    Thanks.

    I was thinking we need to start doing more, and what better way than to copy what the feminists did/do. That way they can’t minimize what we are doing, cause that will show their hypocrisy (sp?).

    We could also make up tons of signs saying things like “reproductive rights”, “will to live”, “Children” and so many, many more and dump them at the family courts and say, well you’ve taken this all away from us so you can have them. Imagine if every custodial parent did that, with say 5 signs each? That would be a huge pile!

    I have had enough and I am sure that my children have too.

  12. Scott B says:

    And we need to keep doing stuff like that week after week after week after week. Shock and awe tactics. Make it so they can’t ignore us any longer.

  13. Dave says:

    Here is another report of the suicide. I encourage you to go to these pages where ever they are reported. The more activity and interest on the net on this story the more likely they will do some follow up.

  14. Skeptik says:

    Yes Scott,
    I agree entirely.
    Also I’ll be VERY interested to see if anyone in Brisbane has the gumption to lay a wreath at the spot outside the district court there where this poor man torched himself, or whether the general public there write him off as a nutter and continue misandric business as usual
    tick…..tick……..tick……

  15. Skeptik says:

    My thanks go out to Julie, for kind words and encouragement + links and Dave for sage advice about keeping the tragic Brisbane suicide news alive by visiting news websites.

  16. rc says:

    When French rule became so hateful to the Vietnamese back in the early 60s, a Buddhist monk calmly sat down in a public place and set himself alight, burning to death. The images of that monk sitting in the Buddha pose while flames consumed him ended up in newspapers and TV news bulletins all around the world – they became the symbol of revolt against French rule in Indochina.

    Few images can be so powerful. If the world was so open to opposition to French colonial rule back then, but the media doesn’t want to tell us the background story and context of this guy’s fatal public protest, then what does that tell us about Western media?

  17. Skeptik says:

    Yes,
    You’re right rc.
    that image has been passing on and off through my mind all day.
    Thanks for the reminder it was French colonialism the monk was protesting.
    There’s yet another chilling aspect to this case aside from the feminist lace curtain media making this man’s angst invisible.
    It’s this. I’ve scoured news websites again today and there are so FEW details about the man it’s frightening.
    Not even his name!!! Now don’t anybody tell me that a man can leave a courthouse, turn himself into a human bonfire and NOBODY within the whole field of journalism in Brisabane, in all of Queensland, in all of Australia indeed even from overseas can’t find out the man’s name.
    Furthermore he got taken to a hospital overnight where he eventually died for Goodness sakes!
    No journo can be bothered to interview a nurse from critical care? or talk to a court staff member? Unbelievable!!!
    The other logical conclusion to draw from this is just as chilling – that court, ambulance service and hospital staff have somehow been strong-armed to maintain a veil of secrecy over the man’s identity.
    Given there’s been NO public statement about the matter by ANY Ozzie Statesman, Judge, Senior Police Officer, Senior Hospital Manager, Senior Mental Health Official, it’s looking suspiciously like a case of stonewalling until some other sensationalized ‘news’ come along.
    Either way it’s looking draconian and decidedly misandric.
    As I keep saying events simply wouldn’t unfold this way if it had been a woman instead who had stepped out of a courtroom and turned herself into a human torch. The media would have been all over that. It would be syndicated in lots of women’s magazines too no doubt. So I think Dave’s on the right track. It’s up to us Men’s Rights Activists to publicize this as the powers that be don’t appear to give a shit.
    I’ll be writing to a leading Men’s Rights organization today to get the story more airplay.
    I urge others to do something to spread this story.
    tick……tick……..tick…….

  18. Scott B says:

    Julie that idea is golden.

    That would be so powerful, especially if it was a woman too. It would be great to say you were doing it for equality and then stump them all when you explain that it is men who are discriminated against!

    I really think this needs to be done.

  19. Hans Laven says:

    Without knowing more details it’s a little risky jumping to conclusions; probably a good idea to be tentative in statements. Unfortunately the secrecy of Family Court no doubt in Australia will make it very difficult to relate his suicide to what happened in there.

  20. Skeptik says:

    Yes Hans,
    precisely.
    the secrecy will make it very difficult to relate his suicide to what happened in there.
    And there’s the nub.
    The officialdom’s secrecy will only leave us the general public to speculate for as long as they maintain their unexplained silence and journalists look the other way in willful ignorance of this man’s life and death.
    But I’ll keep saying this wouldn’t be the case if it were a woman who’d torched herself outside a courthouse.
    It would then be BIG news!
    Let’s recap journos level of interest shall we – Day of the event a couple of paragraphs. Next day in Brisbane itself NOTHING. NOT A SINGLE LINE WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN MAJOR AUSTRALIAN NEWSPAPERS AND ONLINE NEWS SITES. Check for yourself.
    So I reckon it’s up to MRA to publish.

  21. Scott B says:

    Perhaps people setting themselves on fire is so common there, that there is no interest in such stories????

  22. Dave says:

    I feel a Tui ad coming on!

  23. Scott B says:

    exactly!

  24. Dean says:

    Well, it’s almost a week. Was there any other news about this poor chap? Iv’e checked online and can’t find anything. Been through the same corrupted courts myself and lost all contact with my child through the systems bent logic of excluding one parent by way of fabricated accusations.
    Would be good to have a register or petition for change that we could all sign up to and maybe have this guys plight somehow included.

  25. Skeptik says:

    Nope, sorry Dean.
    Sorry to hear about your parental alienation.
    Not even a single line of press coverage in the Ozzy indeed worldwide wide medaa on the poor guy. I suppose the judiciary in Ozz knew that world cup fever would subsume news of his tragic demise.
    No smugness in saying this, only sadness at such an inevitable and predictable outcome.
    Ozzies should hang their heads in shame and rise to my challenge to be male empathic, but I’m not holding my breath on that one.
    Just goes to show feminism/chivalry holds sway and we guys are the modern day niggers of the world.
    On an encouraging note though I’ve just spent an night in the company of hypergamic females who WEREN’T being hit on by the guys in the room, and even whilst the world cup was playing live overheard several of them discussing how they’d been femi-shafted in Canada and USA. So men’s consciousness is spreading. Take heart and keep pushing as a Men’s Rights Activist brother.
    Warmest regards

  26. Scott B says:

    Looks as though the courts and media are getting the final kick in, by not allowing the story to get told.

  27. Skeptik says:

    Yes Scott,
    again I’ve checked online today and not a single solitary follow up in any of the major online dailies.
    Shame on the Oz media.

  28. Hans Laven says:

    FYI, here is my correspondence with the Aussie group Dads in Distress:

    Hello Hans

    At this stage I haven’t heard anymore, and haven’t had a chance to
    investigate. We only have a small presence in the Brisbane area, and our guy
    there is away at the moment.

    Regards,

    Barry Guidera
    National Manager
    Dads in Distress Inc
    02 6652 8113
    didsbarry@bigpond.com
    http://www.dadsindistress.asn.au

    —–Original Message—–
    From: Hans xnet [mailto:hans@xnet.co.nz]
    Sent: Wednesday, 9 June 2010 8:13 PM
    To: didsadmin@bigpond.com
    Subject: Man Sets Himself Alight in Brisbane

    Hi there

    We in New Zealand read the article about this man but note that police
    claimed his suicide was not related to the Court proceedings. We note that
    no Australian journalists appear to have investigated the background to this
    suicide, whereas if it had been a female then we could expect it to be all
    over the news media.

    Does anyone know anything more about this suicide?

    Kind regards

    Hans Laven
    New Zealand

  29. Sad Mother says:

    Hey Guys,

    A supportive woman here. I’m sorry but if a woman killed herself outside a court in NZ. It would be the same story. The Govt, would pounce on the media to hush it up, because it makes them look bad.
    How many women have taken their own lives, in the privacy of their homes after losing in Family Court, not just to fathers, that isn’t the worst loss. As long as we know the father is not abusive it is not so bad. But to CYFS, and try taking a look at the stats on CYFS care and how many children are abused or die in CYFS care.
    I know what I am talking about, I stood beside my husband and we fought together in Family Court to get our son back when we were falsely accused. CYFS did everything possible to stall the case. Then kept our son on the grounds, that having the court case take so long, he was now bonded to the caregivers.
    Our access is a joke. They are determined to keep him until he is 17, they still believe the false allegations.

  30. Scott B says:

    We must keep this issue going. He cannot have died in vain.

  31. skeptik says:

    Scott,
    Thank-you for the reminder.
    It’s scary to see how the Oz media has blanket ignored this and NOT done an in depth follow up.
    The general public still don’t know who he was, what he was distressed about and why he could have resorted to such a dramatic demonstration. Obviously there is a level of denial there which will not change if the issue gets overlooked by folks on the NZ side of the Tasman Sea too.
    So, anyone got some background to this man gleaned from your own sources?

  32. Scott B says:

    No. My friends who live there don’t even know about it!

  33. Scott B says:

    What are the Aussie MRA’s doing about it?

    If that happened here, which I pray doesn’t ever happen, I would like to think we’d be doing a lot to get all the info out there! Should we in NZ be doing more for this poor man and his memory/legacy?

  34. Skeptik says:

    Thank-you Julie,
    I seem to remember you saying you were in Australia.
    Do you have connections there you could contact about this to get some publicity going in Oz about this poor man?

  35. julie says:

    Skeptic, I not in Australia but you don’t need to be in the same country to get something in a newspaper.

    Is there any news to share about the progress to this story? Like – was the journalist who wrote the article interested in doing a follow-up? What did Dads on the Air think as the no.1 men’s media? Did you by chance contact any other local newspapers in the man’s area?

  36. Skeptik says:

    Julie,
    this comment from Scott speaks reams –

    “No. My friends who live there don’t even know about it!”

    I’ve scoured Ozzie online media gain today and nothing.

    That’s VERY scary.

  37. Skeptik says:

    Scott,
    I’ve inquired as you can see below to Reg and Sue Price at –

    Email: support@mensrights.com.au
    Mail: P.O. Box 28
    Waterford Queensland 4133 Australia
    Fax: (07) 3200 8769
    Tel: (07) 3805 5611

    Dear Reg and Sue,
    recently a man committed suicide outside a Brisbane courthouse by setting himself on fire.
    The following day there was a couple of paragraphs in the local newspaper.
    I’ve looked several times online and found absolutely NO follow up story.
    The general public haven’t even been informed of the man’s name!
    This is frightening especially when we think of how the media would be all over the story if it had been a woman committing suicide outside a courthouse in this fashion.

    Would you please inform me and other interested people in NZ who post regularly to the MENZ website of any current or forthcoming media or even blogging about this poor man.

    Time will tell.

  38. Scott B says:

    Thank you so much I really appreciate that!

  39. julie says:

    this comment from Scott speaks reams –

    “No. My friends who live there don’t even know about it!”

    I’ve scoured Ozzie online media gain today and nothing.

    That’s VERY scary.

    Yes, I agree. But I think it’s scary the MRM grows but no-one cares to do anything for any other man. Do you think anyone told any journalist anywhere?

    Edit: Oops, start again. 🙂 Yes, I agree it’s scary. But I think there are lots of men doing things for other men and it may be that a documentary is underway – let’s hope so. Also, good on you Skeptic for keeping a look out. I hope you find something and share it with us.

  40. julie says:

    Skeptic, just to clarify my last comment. I think it is sad nothing has been done about a man setting himself on fire outside a courthouse. It definitely shows a need to be caring about the mental state of men going through court cases. It’s also a shame no-one from here thought about starting a lobby or something but who knows, maybe someone from Australia read this site and did something.

    And at the same time, I’ve met guys who have suggested some awesome creative ways to do things for men’s rights and I know by visiting university, unitec and another school there’s a lot of interest and by phoning their student centres, I know things can happen.

    And yet, that’s nothing compared to what men CAN do! They will, in the near future, do things that will blow everyone’s mind, IMHO. If you consider all the strengths men have, and they are ahead of women in quite a bit when it comes to being creative, men will take things to a whole other level, I reckon.

    I also think speaking up about the issue over and over again is a good tactic. Things take time to sink in, they say, but once it does, ….. WOW! Watch out! 🙂

  41. skeptik says:

    Ive just written to Fathers for Justice Oz commenting and linking back to this thread in an effort to try and get some more information about the man who suicided.
    Here’s the link to that.

    Let’s please keep this thread alive by periodically posting on it so his tragic demise doesn’t sink into obscurity.

  42. Scott B says:

    Amen.

  43. Scott B says:

    I’m starting to think we’ll never hear about this poor man. If I had the momey I would fly to Brisbane and investigate.

  44. Skeptik says:

    Scott B,
    Thanks for your reminder.
    Prompted by it I checked major online Oz media sites again today and not a single line on the poor guy.
    Weeks later we don’t even know his name!
    Definitely a cover up.
    More lace curtain.
    The last report of this guy’s self immolation scant as it is it may provide some leads a reader can follow so I place it here.

  45. Scott B says:

    Come on guys let’s not give up on this story. Even if it turns out that it has nothing to do with men’s rights. This man does not deserve to die in vain.

  46. Skeptik says:

    Thanks Scott B,
    Your reminder keeps the issue alive on the MENZ site at least, which is more than can be said for mainstream Ozzie media’s compassion apparently.
    Or for the poor man who has simply been written off by an ANONYMOUS police source the day after his self immolation as being ‘mentally unwell’.
    You don’t say?
    Really? Mentally unwell eh?
    Gosh blow me down with a feather!
    Who’d ever have thought a man could leave a district courthouse feeling mentally unwell eh?

    Good news though – Men’s organisations in Oz have started to pick up the story.

    Sad that the mainstream media don’t consider it newsworthy.
    Still, he was only a man after all though eh?

  47. Max says:

    Some interesting conversation on this link/forum about possible reasons for the lack of reporting and general attitude of some people…

  48. Scott B says:

    Thanks Skeptik and Max

  49. MAX says:

    What do you think Scott B and others? Could they (See Quotes below) be right and the reason for it not being in the papers being because of the danger of ‘copy cat’?
    I of course also know very well the nature of judges and it being equally likely that he/she wants to protect him/herself from being linked to the suicide.

    I have to look into it especially since I encountered during google searches on this lots of cases around the world where people committed suicide by setting themselves on fire.

    QUOTES FROM FORUMS:
    “It has been kept quiet because it is a suicide. More people suicide than die in car accidents each year and more people are injured by suicide attempts than are injured by car accidents. We can’t stop hearing about the car accidents, but the suicides … you have to research to find out about them. It’s a policy to not give attention to suicides.

    I used to work in a high-rise in Brisbane looking over the Story Bridge. We’d see a “jumper” probably once a month or so. It was never mentioned in the News or anything public.

    My friend works driving trains in Perth, suicide by train is so common that the drivers not only have a procedure to follow but are also required to practice it regularly. None of these deaths are publicised.

    I ‘get it’ that we wouldn’t want to read about suicides…we couldn’t have them in the newspapers etc because suicide definitely produces ‘copy cats’ and a friend who used to work for a Funeral Director in Brisbane often talks about the two teenagers from one Brisbane High School she had to ‘direct’ the funerals for…within 4 days of each other…both in the same class/year level…no connection just a ‘copy cat’ thing and the same school had a string of ‘attempts’ too”

  50. MAX says:

    Of course the reason for it not being in the news could also be because as this person says:

    Quote:
    “I do understand that suicide is a common thing and that, no, it isn’t ‘news headlines’ because for one thing, it’s generally a private, painful matter..”
    Unquote

    But if I was a journalist or had a newspaper then I would want to know what (could have been) the reason was for this very public ‘protest(?!)suicide’ and report on it while at the same time I would protect the identity of the person and his family and relations but then again it WOULD still bring EXTRA attention to the family because lots of people already know who he is (Friends, neighbours, work mates, relations etc.)

    And as i think about it ‘Copy Cat’ suicides are more of a teenage thing.

    So it would be understandable that newspapers don’t report on it because of it being a very ‘private painful’ matter.

    But i believe that he wanted to show somebody something, maybe make them feel guilty for his death, perhaps his Ex or even the judge, otherwise he would have chosen a less painful suicide/death in a less public place.

  51. Scott B says:

    It is a load of BS to say that they don’t report on suicides due to not wanting copycats… on the news we hear about graphic murders, assaults, how to make bombs, how to rip people off, showing how to by-pass airline security etc etc etc blimmin etc, but suicide? Oh no, can’t talk about that! Why not? Cause it is mainly men/boys commting suicide, therefore no reason to look into it or acknowledge it.

  52. Scott B says:

    If you are going to top yourself, you’re not gonna worry about copying someone. (I get that some do, but then murders do too!) Plus with all the CSI and similar programmes showing suicides and murders, can’t they just copy those measures? Shouldn’t we ban programmes/movies with that in it too? I am sure there must be books that have suicides in them too, let’s ban those too! But we don’t, cause they are fictional, but they may also be based on true stories. Don’t we care about the true stories?

  53. Scott B says:

    And as for all hooplah about it being a private matter etc, I am sure families/friends of victims of murder etc don’t want the gory details spread around… but that’s what happens.

  54. Skeptik says:

    Scott B,
    I agree with what you’re saying.
    It IS possible to go online and get information about assisted death (suicide by another term), how to make bombs, methods used to commit murder etc. Just Look at the hit TV series Dexter for example, now into it’s 5th series. So the whole notion of protecting people from doing copycat behavior is as you say BS.
    The hypocrisy is shown up further when you see this sort of stuff all over the Oz media.
    THEN the media are in a frenzy to report every gory detail WITHOUT any qualms about setting off copycat behavior.
    You can add to the list of suicides reported avidly in the Oz media many others such as –

    Kurt Cobain of Nirvana
    Ian Curtis of Joy Division
    Nick Drake
    Del Shannon

    It doesn’t add up.

  55. Max says:

    The media sucks big time…I agree Scott B.
    So lets keep on investigating together.
    Here is what else I found:

    This journalist seems to be more on to it than others:

    -I quote:
    “Covering suicides has long been considered a delicate subject among newspaper editors. There are internal and industry-wide guidelines that offer suggestions for treating the subject carefully; the aim of these considerations is to prevent additional suicides via the so-called “copycat effect.”

    Because of this, suicide stories are rare in the media, with most publications avoiding them unless the deceased is well known, the suicide happens in a public place, or if the context for the piece is a trend-driven and/or a prevention-minded package.
    None of this is to suggest that suicide ought never to be covered. But given the alarmist language that characterizes much of today’s financial coverage, papers must show thoughtful restraint, and avoid the “causation” trap between financial ruin and suicide. Individuals who are mentally ill to begin with may reach the false conclusion that suicide is the only remedy for their troubles. But the press mustn’t suggest that this is the case. Tread lightly.

    The same is true for media coverage of suicide. There is an unspoken rule among editors throughout the land that covering a suicide – especially details of a suicide – is morally wrong. It unnecessarily inflicts more pain upon the loved ones left behind. They argue that suicide is not newsworthy unless a celebrity kills himself or the suicide affects the public – for instance, when tortured soul jumps off an overpass during rush hour and brings traffic to a halt.

    I disagree.

    We, the media, misrepresent the true level of mental illness – especially depression – in society when we ignore all but celebrity and gawker suicides. We saw this on display during the last week with the suicides of Michael Blosil, Marie Osmond’s 18-year-old son, and Andrew Koenig, star of Growing Pains. According to media reports, both had suffered with depression. End of story.

    There are nearly twice as many suicides as homicides every year in the United States. Of these 33,000 suicides, how many did you hear about last year? Then think about how many murders the local media covered in your community last year. I am not – NOT – in favor of publishing the details of every suicide. As with rape victims, we do not need to publish the names or any identifying information about those who commit suicide. We do not need to publish gratuitous detail or romanticize these deaths. We should not use sensational headlines “Girl, 13, kills herself after failing to make the cheerleading team.” We should not play up these stories on the front page.
    The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention has published recommendations for media covering suicide: http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=7852EBBC-9FB2-6691-54125A1AD4221E49. But I have never heard these recommendations mentioned during suicide debates in the newsroom. I did not even know these recommendations existed until I started covering mental health several years ago.

    I have learned over the years that writing anything about any death – by homicide, suicide, accident or natural causes – often angers someone. I do not want to add to the grief of those devastated by a suicide. But I ask myself, are we, the media, feeding the stigma of suicide and mental illness by ignoring it? Are we hiding our own disdain for mental illness with feigned, self-righteous compassion?

    You tell me.”
    -Unquote.

    And because its three times as many men and boys who commit suicide than women and girls, the FEMINASTIES who more and more rule the show don’t give a shit about our gender.
    Looks like we have to start our own newspaper, radio station and TV channel, Add campaign(!) etc. and kick some serious ass.
    All I am looking for is some sponsors (Bob Geldorf?…) and then WE (!) can use our anger and give it back to where it came from…because anger is given to humans for fighting injustice.

  56. Scott B says:

    Great comment about the famous ones, and wouldn’t they be bigger risk of people copying them?

    Plus we all know how to kill outselves anyway!

  57. Scott B says:

    Plus might I add that ignoring suicides and not reporting them, has done nothing to srop or slow it down has it?

  58. rc says:

    I was incensed by this news blackout until I recently read the following in the book “Influence”, by the psychologist Robert Cialdini. It’s a fairly old book, first published in 1984, and is not concerned at all with gender issues. The book aims to identify the major features of our psyches that make us easy meat for others who want to have influence over us. This is from the chapter “Social Proof”:

    “After a suicide has made front-page news, airplanes – private planes, corporate jets, airliners – begin falling out of the sky at an alarming rate.
    For example, it has been shown that immediately following certain kinds of highly publicised suicide stories, the number of people who die in commercial-airline crashes increases by 1,000 percent! Even more alarming: The increase is not limited to airplane deaths. The number of automobile fatalities shoots up as well.”

    He goes on to describe numerous experiments that were conducted to try to explain this mystery. What was most striking was that the effect – now called the “Werther Effect” (so named by David Phillips of UC San Diego) – only occurred in those places where the suicide was widely publicised, ie front-page news, or TV bulletins, and that the suicides were committed by people who identified with the first fatality. In neighboring regions where there was no publicity, there was no spike in suicides (the data was gathered between 1947 and 1968). For every front page suicide story, an average of 58 more than usual people killed themselves.

    The cause is thought to be due to the number of people who are actively considering suicide at any one time, suddenly seeing an example in someone else. That’s all these people need to go over the edge, especially when they perceive the original victim’s situation to be like theirs. Even the method of suicide is similar. Obviously, this pool of people includes pilots, bus drivers and people driving cars in the oncoming lane to yours. Personally, I don’t want these people given incentives (or anyone else, for that matter) – I would rather they were given time to move past their darkest moments.

    That’s a good rationale for keeping suicides off the front page of course, but it’s not an excuse for doing nothing about it. If the principle of “social proof” (ie if others are doing it, then so will I) can increase suicides, it can also be used to decrease them. There are plenty of people who have contemplated suicide and survived. All of them are positive examples to men who are desperate. Instead, we get nothing.

  59. Skeptik says:

    Thanks rc,
    I still remember quite vividly with horror many years ago a good work buddy of mine Tony from Otaki, Kapiti Coast committing suicide, then years later being part of suicide prevention workshops held in Auckland.
    The general consensus from a study of literature and anecdotal evidence at those workshops was that folks who suicide share two common features – loss of community and loss of self identity.
    I still believe that’s true to this day for sane people who suffer such loss, even so the psychotically ill can arguably fall into that category as well, so it’s always stuck with me as a sort of vital catchall indicator.

    With that in mind I wonder whether or not this researcher’s findings would change and the suicide rates he found drop dramatically IF there were two things TOGETHER in place as a safety net –

    1. Widespread advertising of services to help those contemplating suicide.
    2. Such advertising carried the information that helpees could be part of a community of survivors.

    I say that because to some extent I notice the first of these two, but NOT the second.
    Still I must acknowledge the second may exist without me being aware of it.

    There’s another reason I think about this and post here on a site to raise awareness of men’s experience.
    I’ve dealt with many cases of men in NZ going through the family court system who end up devastated, bereft of precisely the two things the Mental Health Foundation found necessary to have in order to AVOID suicide:

    1. A sense of role identity – oftentimes cruelly stripped from a man when he looses his wife/partner, kids, house etc AND doubly underscored when it is done unjustly as a result of false accusations he looses his sense of being a member of a just and humane society often with startling speed and in one fell swoop.
    2. A sense of community – again when a relationship ends he suffers with the loss of family and friends and so membership of a wider kinship group goes out the window, as does membership of a compassionate widespread community if he has a sense of personal injury and injustice going unheeded.

    When I look at it this way there’s precious little for the many guys in such a predicament to live for.
    Thankfully many years ago now I stumbled upon some other guys who befriended me after going through similar events.
    That’s another reason I’m so passionate about MENZ being a site where men can easily connect with one another for
    – promoting a clearer understanding of men’s experience –

    your thoughts?

  60. Skeptik says:

    One other thing rc,
    I recall in studying the phenomenon of male suicide that the eminent psychologist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross touched upon the subject with her loss of self writings about grief and loss as did the great group psychotherapist Carl Rogers who did immense group-work with WW2 soldiers who came back home from war maimed.
    There is also a Grief and Loss Society in NZ.
    They have members who were a mix of survivors of suicide, close family and friends of such folks, and mental health professionals.
    I offer this information for anyone interested.

  61. Max says:

    For a possible reason why this men committed suicide:

    Suicide attempted by self-immolation (Fire..),
    NC Andreasen and R Noyes Jr:

    ‘The authors found that 14 individuals who had attempted suicide by self- immolation all had psychiatric illness (most were psychotic), and many had religious preoccupations. There was a reversal of the usual male to female ratios for burn injury and for successful suicide–all 5 completed suicides were women. Although self-immolation as social protest was widely publicised during the years surveyed, the authors note that these individuals all attempted suicide for personal and irrational rather than morally idealistic reasons.’

    COPYCAT SUICIDES:

    After more investigating I found the ‘Werther effect’ is a very interesting phenomena indeed:

    `Wikipedia, Copycat suicides`:

    “An increased rate of suicides has been shown to occur up to ten days after a television report.[5] Studies in Japan[6] and Germany[7] have replicated findings of an imitative effect. Etzersdorfer et al.[8] in an Austrian study showed a strong correlation between the number of papers distributed in various areas and the number of subsequent firearm suicides in each area after a related media report. Higher rates of copycat suicides have been found in those with similarities in race,[6] age, and gender[9] to the victim in the original report. Stack[10] analyzed the results from 42 studies and found that those measuring the effect of a celebrity suicide story were 14.3 times more likely to find a copycat effect than studies that did not. Studies based on a real as opposed to fictional story were 4.03 times more likely to uncover a copycat effect and research based on televised stories was 82% less likely to report a copycat effect than research based on newspapers.”

    BUT there is also this:
    Quote: “…Other scholars have been less certain about whether copycat suicides truly happen or are selectively hyped. For instance, fears of a suicide wave following the death of Kurt Cobain never materialized in an actual increase in suicides.[11] Similarly the researcher Gerard Sullivan has critiqued research on copycat suicides, suggesting that data analyses have been selective and misleading, and that the evidence for copycat suicides are much less consistent than suggested by some researchers.[12]” -Unquote.

    But the REAL ISSUE is dealing with the CAUSES not with the SYMPTOMS of depression and the causes lie in child hood, parenting and society in general.
    That there is a connection between the three times higher suicide rate in boys than girls and the boys not having enough ‘father time’ would seem logical.
    That the reason for the boys not having enough ’father time’ being more often than not the boys mothers depriving the father of contact and again more often than not the only reason being bitterness and a thirst for vengeance and that therefore the mother having to take a large part of the blame for the eventual suicide of the child would also seem logical.
    I am glad my conscience is clear.

  62. rc says:

    Skeptic,

    I have had no direct experience with suicidal people, other than the odd acquaintance who I’ve heard about with few details given. All I know is that the sheer scale of it is appalling, and that if there is any attempt being made at reducing it, it is invisible (at least to me). Road accidents claim fewer lives. The average joe knows nothing about it. If he doesn’t know how it strikes and what makes him vulnerable, how will he know when it is upon him and how to overcome it?

    Your suggestions about loss of identity and community both seem sensible to me. Another major factor I would suspect is the shame of it. We all know the stigma that goes with anyone who has made an attempt on their own life, or who has threatened to. There is also the great fear that in seeking help, somehow a team of white-coaters with butterfly nets will show up and seize control of one’s life. So a program that doesn’t require the participation of people at risk would reach them. I don’t know how effective the John Kirwan campaign has been in making people understand depression, but if it has been so, it seems a good template for approaching suicide as well.

    Where it gets delicate is identifying with potential suicides in a public way. From what I’ve read, men immediately after divorce are one of the highest risk groups. It’s hard to see how a high-profile figure with a similar stature to John Kirwan could front a TV ad saying “I’ve been there. Wife disappeared one day, my children taken out of my life, my financial security decimated, the law of the land all playing along. I thought the best way out was to end it by my own hand. But it doesn’t have to be this way. It passes. I survived it, and I’m glad I did.” You can imagine the uproar. It would catch the attention of every man in this same situation, and I’m guessing many of them are desperate for advice from someone else who knows exactly where they are, but we both know why it would never get to air. So I completely agree with you that there need to be men-only spaces (an old-time MRA who used to be very active in the U.S. claimed that he was able to reduce suicide to zero in his men’s support group by simply refusing to allow women to be present.)

  63. Celibate 3 years says:

    People that commit suicide and use suicide to make public statements is not something any society wants to glorify/publicise, or we are only a short step away from another 9/11.

    Intelligence bureaus tried for years to profile terrorist suicide bombers, and there was no stereotypical profile whatsover. This “Werther effect” described above, makes alot of sense though. Humans are easily conned by main-stream media, and they know it only too well…..

    It is terrible about that man setting himself on fire outside the Family Court, ti have one last final say, while most kill themselves less publicy by “accident” or at home, and the media/Judges don’t want suiciders to take things to the next level which already occurs too often anyway, like that psychologist military guy in the U.S who took out as many of his military colleagues first as possible…..

    Keep the status quo. Keep these deaths quiet. Publish the live protests outside the Family court ONLY. Let people who kill themselves DIE IN VAIN.

  64. Celibate 3 years says:

    In fact, it offers me some hope hearing all the above, that the media aren’t as irresponsible as I always thought.

    Public suicides are a definite no-no. Ignore public suicides, whatever and however important the cause or the message being sent.

  65. julie says:

    So I completely agree with you that there need to be men-only spaces (an old-time MRA who used to be very active in the U.S. claimed that he was able to reduce suicide to zero in his men’s support group by simply refusing to allow women to be present.)

    RC, I hope you don’t mind my interruption.

    Do you have a link to this man’s work?

  66. Celibate 3 years says:

    In fact, I’ll let you into a secret:

    Everytime the media publicize my estranged spouse’s mates getting shot, I quietly smile, cause I know the media have just caused more of my spouses mates getting shot right there. And that is exactly what happens: the numbers go up and up, despite the dirty medias spin. And now there is talk of arming them, and guess what that’s going to do – It will just cause more and more of them to get shot. Who knows, maybe the media want more of the Police to get shot? The Werther Effect: I like it.

  67. Celibate 3 years says: says:

    There is abolutely no reason EVER for anyone to ever kill themselves, but the “wherther effect” leads people to believe in depression, etc. You just need a few survival tips:

    Tip 1: Your wife comes to you and says she has had an affair, or is having an affair and is leaving you, and taking the kids, or commencing court proceedings….
    You may be taken completely off-guard and devastated after working long hard days every day to provide for your family, and hence want to end it all… Well you don’t.

    1/
    Check your health first and foremost:
    You tell your wife that you have slept around with a few really bad sluts and slags as well over the last year, and know for a fact that you have syphillis, at the least, but am currently getting tested for everything else. So your wife will have to go to her lover, and her lover will have to have a swab shoved up his uretha/penis, and they will both have swabs and blood tests, and it all becomes about life and death, and them waiting out their HIV tests for 6 months etc. What you will at least know 6 months later is whether your wife gave you anything from the lover, cause you will show sympathy and wait for their results with them. If they have something, thats not good for you, but if they come out clear, you can then reveal the truth that you were just concerned about your own health, and that you never had syphillis to begin with, cause you were ALWAYS FAITHFULL, unlike the scum that they chose to be, and thanks for the clean test results (hopefully).

    and I have 25 other great tips like these that I have practised myself, and they have all made me feel just great… you have to be able to put a smile on your face every single day.

    It was pure delight telling my spouse that I never had syphillis to begin with or had even looked at another, and knowing the anxiety that they went through waiting on test results took a small edge off……as well as gave me peace of mind for my own clean bill of health.

  68. rc says:

    RC, I hope you don’t mind my interruption.

    Do you have a link to this man’s work?

    He went by the name of ‘Irlandes’ and he used to speak quite freely about his earlier days as an activist helping men dealing with divorce on the forum ‘Don’t Get Married’. That site imploded a year or two back when the owner had enough, but I believe the archive has been resurrected. If you google on ‘Irlandes’, ‘Don’t get married’ and suicide you might find it again.

    I did a brief search myself just now and see he is still commenting – here’s part of a comment (one of many) he posted on Amy Alkon’s blog (http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/06/17/advice_goddess_9.html) last month. It gives a good indication of how clearly things are to him, and how bravely and articulately he expresses his point of view. Although he mentions his work counselling suicidal men, in this piece he doesn’t mention how he was able to reduce suicides to zero by excluding women from his support group and not subjecting vulnerable men to their scathing judgments. Perhaps if you can track him down commenting elsewhere, you could ask him about it.

    ——————————————————————–

    When I got out of the Army, feminism, with the help of the left-wing MSM, was making the news on a regular basis. Feminists were already saying nasty things directed at all men. Most men ignored it, thinking, “I am not one of those guys they are talking about so it doesn’t affect me.” Millions of stupid men still think that.

    I understood the feminists did indeed mean all men including me, so I took a negative approach. I mostly asked women what they thought, but once in a while I entered the debate.

    Eventually, I subscribed to MS. magazine, the N.O.W. magazine, to see what they had to say. Every month, they printed their current ‘scheme’, their word, not mine, to destroy all male influence. Every month, right after MS. hit the mail boxes, the MSM would be Johnny on the Job, with all sorts of coverage of the bogus issues in the magazine.

    This went on for years, until my stomach would no longer tolerate the hatred for men in MS. and I decided I was not going to read it any more. The current child support laws; the current false rape industry; all the crap we have today, first came out in MS. magazine as a “scheme” for the future. I kept those magazines until I retired, and tossed them out.

    Finally, in 1978, I started writing op-eds to the local newspaper on the things being done to men. The response, mostly stupid and childish, like some of you do here. No discussion of the issues. 100% ad hominem attacks like Jody and Crid, who apparently imagine themselves as some sort of wits. (I agree, they are some sort of wits, but the word that comes to mind is ‘half’.)

    In 1984, the local Father’s Rights group asked me to help them, because in one summer of 35 members they had two commit suicide, one by pouring gasoline on himself because of illegal refusal of visitation by his ex-wife with his little daughter. They asked me because I was the only one who showed any actual competence on the issues, and any cojones to tackle the public and take the ad hominem abuse that was going to befall me.

    At first I resisted, but in the fall, I became “Spokesman” for the group. I also set up a counseling program, and while it continued, though I left the local group and worked directly for the state office for some years, my daughter estimated I had counseled over 1,600 men and a few non-custodial women, all without charge.

    We tried to find a professional to do the counseling. No takers, though there were plenty willing to counsel weak; helpless; fragile; inferior women, sarcasm definitely intended.

    One person said, Men don’t have problems, they only cause problems.

    I was nervous at first, though I soon learned I could handle it. But, I also realized I had to get smart in a hurry. I had to know who was actually doing what, and if possible, why, and also what the courts were actually doing. Women are allowed to lie in court, and say almost anything; men are held to traditional male standards, and men need correct information.

    I wasn’t sure Westpub would let anyone but an attorney subscribe to the regional court reporter, but I signed it with my “,CPA” and it came with no questions.

    I read the advance sheets weekly, not just for my state, but for every state included, and soon got a handle on what the courts were doing. I also kept those advance sheets until I retired, then tossed them out.

    I went to the University law library. I read state agency regulations.

    And, I read many court documents.

    I also did something very important. I talked to divorced women, so I would not lose track of the viewpoint of the other gender, something few female social workers think to do, thus soon losing track of reality as many of you here have done.

    I had believed as most ignorants here believe that divorce was mostly about bad men abandoning good, faithful women for younger women. A lot of idiots still believe that. Some right here on this blog.

    In fact, most divorce involves another man. I had noticed years earlier that most women had lovers before the divorce, but assumed they had decided to divorce, and had made preparations ahead of time. I called it the “Lily Pad Syndrome”, implying a frog spies a new lily pad before jumping.

    I was wrong, it is the other man who prompts the divorce.

    It works like this. In the pre-success stage or marriage, when it is hurting the worst, these women are complaining about their marriages in the work place. Sure, I well know all women say, “I never talk about our marriage in the work place.” A lie. In the work place the number one topic of women is their ‘relationships’, including their sex lives.

    There are men, disgusting men, who seek out these women, because they well understand these women are vulnerable and susceptible to an affair. When the woman complains about her husband, they say, “I can’t imagine any man not treating a woman as wonderful and attractive as you are like a queen. If you were my woman, I’d kiss your feet.”

    The minute she falls in love with the gamester, the husband is toast.

    And, soon after our studly gamester has broken up the marriage, and realizes she expects him to help raise her kids, he is gone as well, looking for another stupid, vulnerable woman. At which time our cheap slut announces all men are evil, with no acceptance of her own evil, and sets out to destroy her ex-husband who obviously caused all this mess…

    At this point in time, she doesn’t want to see him again. I am not sure if any of this, or how much, is Freudian because she knows she messed up big time and screwed him over when he didn’t really deserve it. But, in most cases, she starts trying to drive him away from the kids she expects him to support. SHE DOESN’T WANT TO SEE HIM AGAIN, PERIOD. Corrections officials like this, because it makes for job security, but it’s a lousy way to run a society.

    Of course, the feminists, when a woman has succeeded in making visitation impossible, then announce men don’t care for their kids. For ten years, I’m suicide counseling men who don’t get to see their kids, and I have to listen to this stupid drivel.

    I am not a feminist, so you are never going to hear me say the woman is always wrong. Humans, as I have said, are on a Bell Curve, and there are indeed a few bad men that women need to escape from. But, that is not the majority; as a wild guess I’d say 20% of divorce is caused by bad men, not sure even after many years involved with such things. In most cases, it is female adultery which breaks up the marriage.

    My role in dealing with the bad men I encountered was a lost battle to try to teach them to be better men.

    There was none of the sort of thing of defending bad women, by feminists and women in general, such evil women as Andrea Yates and Elizabeth Winkler and Lorena Bobbitt. (Actually, I appreciated the Bobbitt case, because for the first time millions of men realized just how evil feminism is, and how many ‘ordinary’ American women are caught up in that evil.)

  69. julie says:

    Hey, awesome RC. Thanks for sharing this and your time – Very interesting man and comment.

    I think he did the right thing by having a men’s only group. I also think he would have got to zero by assessing each man and because he knew what they were going through, was able to know when they were high risk.

    I also set up a counseling program, and while it continued, though I left the local group and worked directly for the state office for some years, my daughter estimated I had counseled over 1,600 men and a few non-custodial women, all without charge.

    Amazing!!

  70. Scott B says:

    Sorry, I just don’t buy the excuses. I have seen many times the front page of newspapers with stories of the All Blacks losing and murders and natural disasters way back on page 4 or so. That is where NZ journalists priorities are. They certainly aren’t practising journalistic integrity. Look at how they behave on the TV news, read how lop sided and intrusive they are. They will do anything to get a story, the more sensational the better. Sorry I am not convinced.

  71. rc says:

    I think he did the right thing by having a men’s only group. I also think he would have got to zero by assessing each man and because he knew what they were going through, was able to know when they were high risk.

    He was quite explicit in his prior accounts of his experience in dealing with suicide in the men he counselled that excluding women was critical. I can recall him stating situations where women were present and how they obstructed his efforts. He also advised others counselling men going through divorce to do the same – deal with them man to man. I’m afraid I have no experience to add to that, so I can only relay what he said, with no interpretation of why his approach worked. If I run across his writing again, I’ll save it for a future discussion.

  72. Skeptik says:

    Scott B,
    yeah me too. I don’t buy the whole idea of journalistic nobility through ignoring this poor man’s very public and dramatic suicide being a way to stop copy cat suicides.
    Particularly when I see the like of this from Associated Press, reported in the New Zealand Herald.

    Jeeze, they even give the location and method used for Australia’s most popular notorious place for suicides.
    Then as I’ve said before there’s the in depth reporting they do of celebrity suicides such as Michael Hutchence of INXS.

    To their credit the Sydney Morning Herald did run this piece about the subject of suicide in general noting academics labeling it an Australian epidemic, but nothing even from them in any depth about the recent Brisbane courthouse suicide.

    The Medical Journal of Australia of Australia had this to say recently about suicide in Australia:

    Although suicide accounts for only 1.6% of all deaths in Australia, it comprises more than 20% of deaths for men aged between 20 and 39 years, and men remain four times more likely than women to die by suicide, with overall age-standardised rates of 16.8 and 4.3 per 100 000, respectively.

    Two things can be noted therefore – confusion and hypocrisy about whose suicides get in depth reportage and the fact that suicide is overwhelmingly an issue for MEN rather than women in Australia.
    Given the fact that the recent Brisbane suicide took place outside a courthouse STRAIGHT AFTER the man attended a hearing in court it appears fairly obvious that this is highly embarrassing for the authorities there.
    Notice again how only an ANONYMOUS police spokesperson was the only authority figure who got reported and they simply dismissed the man as mentally unwell. In other words he got written off a simply being a nutter.
    Now, the police may be correct in saying he was mentally unwell, but the question will forever remain until some real in depth analysis is done as to WHY he took his own life by setting himself on fire outside a Brisbane Courthouse immediately after attending a hearing there.

    I, like others don’t buy the excuses for a MASSIVE silence about this.

  73. Hans Laven says:

    Good idea, but unfortunately any male doing this is liable to be charged with some crime, emotional violence, harrassment or similar. Our law now actively promotes women’s right to be unfaithful liars, and financially rewards women for breaking up their children’s family unit through infidelity or almost any other method. On the other hand, our law now represses and punishes normal male responses including almost all expression of their feelings or opinions.

  74. Max says:

    ‘Good skills’

  75. Max says:

    Tip No 2 ????????

  76. julie says:

    I went to give you a run down of NZ’s history and how men’s only groups came to be and how society needs more men stepping up to help. But it was long because I waffled into feminist’s involvement and what they do and what they’ve done.

    But I think instead, I say this man would have been a major player in helping men’s groups become men only. I don’t personally know of any men’s groups that support men going through breakups that have women except to help with administration work etc.

    I was interested in the zero part because I’d love to see all groups get to zero. Some of NZ’s MRAs have worked with 1,000 plus clients and that’s amazing so I see this man as someone worth listening to.

    If I run across his writing again, I’ll save it for a future discussion.

    That would be great! I hope I get to see it.

    ……..

    If Skeptic’s plans for this site start to show, I’ll back off. Just at the moment other men are stepping up and they don’t have a problem with women’s involvement.

  77. Skeptik says:

    Hans and Celibate 3 years,
    I agree with Hans’ opinion about the general state of the law vis a vis men and women in NZ.
    However I don’t agree with the underhand means advocated to get to the truth about infidelity.
    They may make you feel great, but manipulating someone into beleiving thay may have something as serious as syphilis is scambag behavior.
    A better move in my opinion is to avoid the trap of marriage and relationships in general in any western culture.
    There seems much irony to me therefore that you sign in with the moniker – Celibate 3 years!
    If you can’t help yourself and must go there then you should know there is a fair chance that like millions of men throughout the Anglosphere have found you’ll get dumped and taken to the cleaners as a matter of course.
    More than a few words have been written on this website explaining the injustice of this.
    However, I’m afraid if you sink to being underhand and in effect dishing out a false accusation of your own, you’re no better than all the lowlife feminist / chivalrous players out there.
    You’re not any kind of Men’s Rights Activist.
    You’re simply a liability to the Men’s movement. Period.

  78. Celibate 3 years says:

    “No fault” dissolution of marriages, are to blame for the break-down of the family unit. There are no incentives to make the family work, when the first bump in the road occurs. The legislation must be changed.

    And Hans is right, all 25 of my tips have to be applied in a very careful controlled manner. You have to be able to appreciate delayed gratification. If you are prone to venting, you can end up in hot legal water.

    If your intent is always pure, you can smile every day. That is, the 25 tips involve lieing but if your intent is pure, then I believe lieing is ok, and absolutely necessary when you are dealing with someone that has treated you less than dirt, and has been lieing the whole time anyway. In the bigger scheme of things, no Judge is going to have you up for lieing to get test results, when your spouse was the one doing far worse, to put your life at risk. That is, the Judge knows very well, that if you had just asked for test results, these 2 people are too selfish to give you the time of day, to be concerned about anything to do with your health or general well-being.

    For example, everyone is entitled to make at least one call to the person that knowingly had an affair with your spouse who chose to break up your family. But if you don’t think you will get heard by them, you can go to their work place and post a flyer about what they did, calling them any name you want, with a photo of your beautiful children … the name and shame game. You stay within the bounds of the law ALWAYS, and you maintain high moral ground and composure. If you get a visit from Police, who can only give you a warning, and perhaps a trespass notice, you behave graciously, and you say, “No officer, I won’t call the dirty slut, a dirty slut anymore.” and No officer, I won’t call the … and you clarify all the words, and ask the officer to take the list of dirty words to your spouse, that you believe your spouse or their lover is, so you can be clear on what is offensive and what is not. Most likely the Police officer will just walk away…

    If you know you are going to be visited by the Police for warnings, you must have surveillance set up, and a manual camera, and just say you are making a documentary, and always be polite, and never step outside the door. You must always stay inside your door. Invite the officer into your foyer by all means, in view of your hidden camera. But always have your manual camera on, and make no secret of it. And be composed and friendly always.

    Hans is right: adultery is encouraged even by the Police. Public shaming was a common thing not so long ago, and now if you voice any disdain whatsoever, it is you that is painted as the one in the wrong.

    I would love to run a business to go around snapping pictures of adulterers in the act, for use in court, but we have “no fault” marriage dissolutions. I am currently lobbying the Minister of Justice to get this changed, as the status quo is clearly economically unsustainable.

    Anyway, there are many many ways to keep smiling. Some would say “this is not moving on”. I say this is bringing balance back to an unequitable state of affairs. Your spouse has played you for a fool, knowing full well the laws of the land, and you must not buy into this.

    “No fault” dissolution of marriages are economically unsustainable.

  79. Skeptik says:

    Julie,

    If Skeptic’s plans for this site start to show, I’ll back off. Just at the moment other men are stepping up and they don’t have a problem with women’s involvement.

    That’s malicious slander!!!
    It’s also incredibly dumb too!
    Talk about paranoia! Whoa!
    I don’t understand why you dish this stuff out as it will only rebound to make you look daft and abusive!

    To insinuate I have a problem with women writing on this website is to misrepresent me in the worst light and I find that very offensive.
    My problem isn’t with women having input per se, it’s with women dominating a site specifically designed for

    – promoting a clearer understanding of men’s experience –

    Then as I’ve said before we don’t get that.
    Instead we get something very different : a woman’s perspective of men’s experience.
    And I’m afraid all too often as a dip into the archives of this site will show a deeply flawed unempathic perspective at that.
    Not only that but as I’ve also said earlier the lines of communication between men on this website have become severed by the sheer verbosity at times too.

    This sort of ugly dig doesn’t do you any favors, nor give an impression of a woman seeking to understand men’s experience.
    On the contrary, it seems like a clear case of seeking to manipulate newcomers and thereby isolate and demonize a male (me) so as to dominate a place of discussion (this website).

    You, nor anybody else has asked me if I have any plans for MENZ.
    Don’t fret, IF I develop any plans for the MENZ website you’ll be informed.

  80. Hans Laven says:

    Celibate 3 years: you are welcome to your opinion concerning the morality of suicides as political statements, but I for one don’t agree with your position. A system that drives men to suicide needs to notice this. Like you, however, I would be intolerant of such suicides when designed to kill or harm others as well.

  81. Skeptik says:

    One other thing Julie,
    to bring this back on topic –
    when men are emotionally isolated by the manipulations of malicious lies spread about them (demonized) some of them end up committing suicide……..

    Think now Julie.
    Think really deeply and hard….

  82. Hans Laven says:

    Thanks for reproducing that for us, rc.

    There are men, disgusting men, who seek out these women, because they well understand these women are vulnerable and susceptible to an affair. When the woman complains about her husband, they say, “I can’t imagine any man not treating a woman as wonderful and attractive as you are like a queen. If you were my woman, I’d kiss your feet.”

    The minute she falls in love with the gamester, the husband is toast.

    And, soon after our studly gamester has broken up the marriage, and realizes she expects him to help raise her kids, he is gone as well, looking for another stupid, vulnerable woman. At which time our cheap slut announces all men are evil, with no acceptance of her own evil, and sets out to destroy her ex-husband who obviously caused all this mess…

    Ain’t that the truth!

  83. Celibate 3 years says:

    To Skeptic,

    The problem with many many parents in this country are they are too self-absorbed, and too self-indulgent, and their children just don’t factor into their daily, or whimsical choices.

    Children must be born, to keep the population going, and the best place for them to be born is within the contract of a marriage. A marriage contract has to be ultimately treated like a business contract, and this is where the legislation in this country has gone astray. “NO fault” dissolutions are not working.

    Suicide is a cowardly selfish weak act. Public suicide is a waste of good human resources. There are better ways of getting your message across.

    If you have been duped, lied to, manipulated/used, you have to re-group and win the “game” for your children, within the bounds of the rules of the “game” called the law. If the law is wrong, you lobby for a law change. This National Party are pretty good at ramming Bills through under emergency too….

  84. Ford says:

    a woman’s perspective of men’s experience??..as soon as i read that the word ‘manipulating’ came to mind…in family court situations if 1 disagrees with her “perspective” you woud more than likely be accused of lying..instead of women telling mens stories…let the men tell them

  85. Skeptik says:

    Celibate 3 years,
    We think along very similar lines, but this is getting off the topic of the poor guy who committed suicide unless you can tie back your comment to that.

  86. Gerry says:

    One thing I will say, I can’t remember so many postings and comments on one issue for awhile, and in that respect this thread stands as a tribute to this tragic man. If nothing, he has got us talking and I hope his family become aware of the profound impact his passing has had on us here in NZ.

  87. Skeptik says:

    Ford,
    Whilst I agree with your sentiments, let’s bring this back more directly to the topic of the thread – the poor man in Brisbane who self immolated.
    WHO IS GOING TO TELL THAT MAN’S STORY?
    I suspect the journalist who has the courage to dig into his background and publish answers about the background to this man’s very public suicide will have information which will cast much needed light upon aspects of Australian culture some would like to remain in the shadows. And that will be a good thing for us all.
    I hope some such brave person emerges.
    Does anyone have any further news about this to share?

  88. Skeptik says:

    Jerry,
    Yes I agree, this thread does as you say stand as a tribute.
    I’m deeply saddened that the official shroud of secrecy cast over this man’s suicide means we can’t inform his family of the profound impact his passing is having on some folks across the Tasman.

  89. Skeptik says:

    Gerry,
    Yes. I agree, this thread does as you say stand as a tribute.
    I’m deeply saddened that the official shroud of secrecy cast over this man’s suicide means we can’t inform his family of the profound impact his passing is having on some folks across the Tasman.

  90. Celibate 3 years says:

    Tell that tribute business to the guy’s kid/s.

  91. Celibate 3 years says:

    I knew of a boy who when he was 12 years old found his father swinging from a rope in the garage, and the boy grew up to be one sorry depressed messed up puppy,

    and this ARSEHOLE has gone and got himself in the newspapers for burning himself to death.

  92. Celibate 3 years says:

    Life can be a bitch anytime, any day in any country.

    You suck it up for your children, and you work within the bounds of the law, and you never give up on winning the game for your children, and that is called EVOLUTION.

    So he may have been banned from seeing the children, you find a way. You be better, and you keep on going until you stop breathing, but not by your own hand.

  93. rc says:

    Suicide is a cowardly selfish weak act.

    A more ignorant and callous comment is hard to imagine. It is also the height of cowardice itself, in that those you judge are no longer around to respond to you. Please stay celibate for the rest of your life.

  94. Skeptik says:

    C43Y,
    I wouldn’t go so far as to call the guy an arsehole.
    With such a shroud of secrecy cast over him by OZ officialdome, we don’t even know his name, let enough details to judge him.
    Like it or not though his legacy of how male suicide touches some folks in NZ is a form of tribute.

  95. Skeptik says:

    C43Y,
    Again you’re assuming allot.
    The public hasn’t been given details of why this man committed suicide.
    Let alone been told it was because of loosing his kids in court.
    So we’re in no position to judge him, unless we have inside information.
    Do you?

  96. Celibate 3 years says:

    No, I don’t know any of his details.

    But you can safely assume, baby or child/children were part of the equation.

    There are many men that didn’t want or ask for their children to be born.

    There are many men that didn’t want their children later on.

    There are many men and women that go through changes, and the status quo no longer suits, but whatever the situation, suicide privately or publicly, is a self-indulgent, self-absorbed, self-centred, selfish weak response. An almost vindictive response. Sure, maybe he was just so sad, so drained, so depressed, but it requires some energy to get all set up to successfully burn yourself in public.

    Had he done it in private, the newspaper archives wouldn’t exist later for the baby to grow up, and learn what a weak man his/her father was.

    He could have left the country like many men do, and made his fortune and came back later and told alot of crap about the mother, and had a good relationship with perhaps his only blood later…. He had so many choices and so many avenues…

    But he chose for his blood-line to become weak, and this is evolution too: the weak blood-lines die out… the child grows up messed up,and sooner or later that blood-line dies out….. Well Society prays, legislates for it to die out….

  97. Skeptik says:

    C34Y,
    I’m glad to see you acknowledge you don’t know the details.
    Therefore you CAN’T safely assume, baby or child/children were part of the equation.

  98. Celibate 3 years says:

    If you don’t have any children, or any loved ones, sure, go ahead.

    But if you have small people who will be affected, and you know that they will be affected, public suicide especially, is a cowardly selfish weak act.

    If I did not have children, I’d be romping it up whenever, but I CHOSE to have children, and when I married, I entered into a very serious agreement to raise those children to the best of my ability, whatever bumps in the road.

    And until the legislation changes, yes, I will remain celibate, for my children. And when they are grown and gone from my home, then I will romp it up in sin, because by then I will be to old to conceive.

  99. Celibate 3 years says:

    The headline includes “…..after an unfavourable family court decision….”

    And I am generalising: Suicide, private or publicly is a waste. There are always options, but some people just don’t want to know the options. They are too impatient to wait for delayed gratification, and they certainly have no regard for the effect on the baby/child/children.

    When your dead, you’re dead. When you’re alive, the opportunities are limitless, whether you have just been bank-rupted, had your legs chopped off etc etc.

  100. Ford says:

    if the idiot didnt roast himself to a crisp he could have told it and i agree with celibates comments(weak and selfish)

  101. Skeptik says:

    Celibate 3 years,
    You are right to remind me and others it WAS related to family matters.
    However the opening sentence of that article says –

    A MAN is believed to have set himself on fire outside of Brisbane’s iconic Supreme Court complex after an unfavourable family court decision, according to witnesses at the scene.

    People are given to believing all sorts of stuff, some of which gets reported as though it’s truth.
    Now whilst I suspect suspect he self-immolated because like many other fathers he got shafted there, I for one would say the belief that he got an unfavorable court decision doesn’t necessarily means it is a fact.
    The blanket of secrecy shrouded around his suicide by Oz authorities and mainstream Oz media’s acquiescent failure in refusing to dig deeper into his story are facts however, and that’s scary.

  102. Celibate 3 years says:

    Like I said before, life is a bitch any time, and on any day, in any country, and the reality is that most of the time it is not even personal…

    That is, very often, too often, people just make very selfish self-absorbed choices, without regard to the extent that those choices will affect individuals, and then the consequences of those choices can have a snow-balling effect…

    Of course that man got shafted, but 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Even if it was the case of a 12 year old girl hating her father’s guts, and the Family court ruling in the mother’s favour, he shafted the child when he burnt himself, and had the last say,
    or perhaps he was a great father and lost shared custody of the baby – well he shafted the baby,
    or perhaps he never asked or wanted a baby, and was going to have to pay child support for 19 years, well he shafted the baby and the mother…

    So what he did was vindictive, or cowardly, or selfish or weak. He had other better choices for himself and everyone else.

    Life can be a bitch alot. You just have to find ways to smile, and be good to yourself. But if you chose to have children, or have had the courts or IRD dictate to you, over and above your own free-will, there are still better legal ways, than private or public suicide.

    May of us started off young, bright-eyed and full of hope… and perhaps we were even passionate about life, and spontaneous and believed in love, and fell into bed with someone…. and then found Family court knocking on our door.

    At least let the kids have just a tiny little hope, and that man who burnt himself sent a very mean mean message to his offspring.

    And what about me? And what about me.. and my pain and how I feel, and what I want, and what I need……..? Well it’s called growing up. If you don’t like it, make up your own 25 tips for “winning the game”.

  103. Celibate 3 years says:

    What this topic is about is supposedly the implication that Family Court is driving people to suicide, therefore the system is seriously flawed.

    It is the “no fault” dissolution of marriages that is the flawed piece of legislation.

    Suicide happens for all sorts of reasons, and sometimes “helplessness” is the reason – the person can see no way out, or has no sense of life enjoyment anymore… How did the very first union of the two people that created the baby/child/children go so very wrong? It is too simple to get married, or create a baby, and here-in is where the problem is.

    There was a time when it was simply a public shame to have a child out of wed-lock, and then obviously the legislation got changed along the way, and you could leave a marriage at ‘will’.

    If children out of wed-lock was made illegal, and marriage contracts were drawn up like business contracts, there would be an initial public out-cry…. But then family values would kick in, and families would enjoy their family barbeques despite the bumps in the road, and the bumps would happen frequently, and families would still enjoy their family barbeques,

    and now and again fathers and mothers would smile….. and children would become adults, and be shocked when Mum and Dad split up…. However, on the whole, there would be an INCREASE IN HAPPY families, and an increase in happy children that grew into happy adults, and a decrease in suicides in the years to come.

  104. Sad Mother says:

    Thank you Celibate 3 years
    I agree with you and those here who said what they did about no fault divorce, it is very wrong and it must be remembered that with every woman committing adultery there is another man shafting you too.
    In my case my husband cheated on me in my home while I was at work!
    I chose to forgive him and try and work things out in counseling etc but then she announces she is pregnant.
    We had lost our son to CYF’s mainly because of my husbands history – I had chosen to stand by him because it was so unfair, we had done nothing wrong and proved it but they decided he was too much of a risk.
    Yet now when he is with his mistress Cyf’s are supporting him staying with his mistress and letting him be Dad to his newborn.
    He had said he was coming back to me after the birth but now has too much to lose.
    I am left with NOTHING! No son and not even my husband for comfort.
    My only comfort is God.

  105. Celibate 3 years says:

    That is a very sad story, and not an unfamiliar story either. Two parents start fighting due to infidelity, and then lose sight of what’s important… and then CYFs moves in….

    Your son is still out there and you are still his parent.

    You must let your son somehow know that you are still there for him always.

    It is a power-over game out there, and often the parent that complies with all the cheating spouses wishes, ends up the loser, and hence why I say focus on results and how to get them for yourself, but mainly for your children.

    The bond between a parent and a child is priceless. Make a plan, find a focus, and break it down into steps, and keep praying. Keep goal oriented. Sometimes it will seem like you are getting no where fast, but you just have to be patient and keep plodding away, and smile always, and smiles will come back to you.

  106. Skeptik says:

    Until someone digs into this man’s background and gets the facts,
    not the assumptions, not the ‘beliefs’ reported second hand, not the police spokesperson’s opinion, not even the views of those who saw him in person self immolate then all we have is conjecture. Some of the conjecture is getting heavy and demonizing too I see.
    In my book it’s a terribly cheap shot to moralize about how he could have done this, that and the other instead of committing suicide.
    So very easy to fire such shots when NOT leaving a court poleaxed and in a state of mental terror and confusion perhaps after months of unheeded depression which for all we know is how he may have been.
    So intellectually lazy to preach from on high when not having gone through his life experience, nay not even knowing more than the last shred of it.
    So arrogant to walk on a man’s ashes with clumsy aloof high mindedness.
    Empathy people, always empathy.

  107. Kiwi in thailand says:

    I suspect C43y is a woman or white ant.

  108. rc says:

    Julie,

    I find that the ‘Don’t Get Married’ forum is about to be deleted by the owner, and he has publicly announced this only a few hours ago (due to copyright breaches that he doesn’t want to risk). I was able to locate Irlandes’ story using the link he provided, in which he stipulates that 2nd wives were the problem in counselling suicidal men(not all women – my bad).

    What’s really interesting is that he describes one suicide by immolation and the local press’s refusal to publicise it, and the cold cynicism of women and their harsh judgment of men being a critical factor in holding suicide rates higher than they would otherwise be. All this from years ago. My, how little we learn.

    There is a wealth of interesting stuff at this site. Shame it is disappearing soon, but I expect some men will be stripping it of copyrighted material and reposting it again in the future.
    http://dontgetmarried.proboards75.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=11792
    ————————————————————————————————————————————–

    I started writing op-eds to my local newspaper probably around 1978. Feminists proposed that all child support payments be confiscated directly from a man’s paycheck. At that time, this sort of thing was still considered by society in general to be outrageous. I spoke against it. To be frank, it never occurred to me that it would ever become law. Clearly, I failed to understand just how stupid most men are. Thirty years later, I am still waiting for AM to stop attacking the few who have ever done anything, and start attacking their enemies.

    It took them seven years, and I was the only person in our area who spoke out against it. Need I point out all the manginas informed me what a sorry, pathetic, stupid individual I was? After all, it would never affect them, right? In 1984, I think it was, Federal law, not state law, required that the first time a man (no one cared about women) fell 30 days behind on his child support, it would forever be required to be paid to a government agency.

    The next year, the law was proposed that all child support forever be required to be paid to a government agency, not the ex-wife, even if he never fell behind. Again, I got my pedigree read by every stupid mangina egg-sucker, including being told that I should find a suitable hobby to keep my mind off unimportant things that would never affect anyone.

    We tried to contact our US senator, who informed us that we didn’t understand the law, which only applied to those who were delinquent for 30 days. We never did know if he was lying or that stupid that he never read the proposed law, and also managed to forget that the year earlier that law had been passed already.

    This law opened the gate for the present abuses. Once a large government agency is formed, you can be sure it works to increase its power and its income. The agency will always find a way to take your money for what they force you to do. And this also sets the stage for rules which mean you can never escape your c/s debt even if you become unemployed or disabled. And, of course, usually the agency gets court powers with little real appeal possible, something few people understand.

    It was not much later that the next step, direct confiscation from a man’s paycheck, became law as well.

    In summer 1984, I was invited because of my op-eds to visit a meeting of the local FR chapter. They had 2 judges and one of them said things like he paid no attention to any man who said his wife was abusing the kids, because he was as bad as she was. To my chagrin, the judge walked out under his own power, and I wanted nothing to do with those wimps.

    Later that summer two members out of 35 committed suicide, one by pouring gasoline on himself. The local newspaper did not tell why he did it, and when a man wrote a letter complaining they said it was not their policy to print such private things. We all understood if a woman had burned herself over unpaid child support it would be on the front page of every newspaper in the country every day for three months.

    I was induced by lies to attend an organizational meeting for a new group to deal with suicides. I chose to join in and was voted as spokesman of the group.

    One of our biggest problems was the Second Wives. Later, we discovered that any second wife who came to meetings eventually divorced her husband, one hundred percent of the time.

    The Second Wives were clearly there to control us. They would bring cookies and Kool Aid, and the men thought they were wonderful. But, they worked hard to make sure no man had an opportunity to express his feelings, even as men killed themselves. One fiend told me, “They gotta’ learn to act like men.” My first achievement was to get rid of them. We started encouraging men to express their pain, and this quickly changed to my phone counseling anyone who called me. For three years, until I was driven out, we had no more suicides.

    A couple months after I took over as spokesman, a mangina came to a meeting. He said, “You guys are a bunch of losers.” Notice his first words were a personal attack, not a constructive criticism.

    I said, “Tell me more.”

    He said, “If you weren’t losers, you’d have a budget of hundreds of thousands of dollars and a large legal staff.”

    I said, “Will you start the ball rolling by paying $15 annual dues?”

    He said, “I am not paying dues to a bunch of losers.” He got up and walked out.

  109. Celibate 3 years says:

    “Empathy people, always empathy.” Are you talking about the “Wherther effect”?

  110. Scott B says:

    bingo! Kiwi!

  111. Skeptik says:

    No, Celibate for 3 years,
    I’m not talking about the Wherther effect.
    I’m talking about empathy.
    There’s a difference.
    I hope the link helps.

  112. Celibate 3 years says:

    Thank you for the definition of “empathy”.

    But you are a clever man, who want more people to empathise with you. And many many people already do empathise with you, and are often a short step from driving off the road on the way home after family court, and probably often do drive off the road, and sometimes into on-coming traffic, with it being written up as “falling asleep at the wheel.”

    You are talking about the “Werther Effect” and you know it.

    The system is flawed, and no-one is disagreeing, but his stunt is not going to bring about change. Far from it. The powers above will go in the other direction because of the message it would send if they responded to this stunt.

    Judge Boshier and company, if it was in NZ, would just write this stunt up as “mental illness”, and no journo wants to be a part of the “Werther Effect”, and a good thing too.

    The poor kid of this guy will then be teased at school, and told his father was a nut case… there’s nothing to be gained from private suicides or public suicides ever…. weak strains are regarded as losers, and those are the facts. People that likewise throw petrol on the spouse after family court are likewise regarded as losers/criminals/mental.

    Larger society are terrified of the “Werther effect” and so they should be.

  113. Skeptik says:

    Celibate,
    The interpretation of the word empathy I’m thinking of doesn’t end up in copy cat behavior. It’s simply being able to relate from ones own experience of feeling similar feelings. It doesn’t mean acting out those feelings in similar regard.
    I’m disgusted at your stance on genetics, which seems to me to be chillingly close to Nazi eugenics. Horrible ideas about loser genes not being passed on. I thought we’d got past such but apparently not.
    As for the surviving kids, whose to say he even had any. And in any case if he had whose to say he wasn’t distressed at having them systemically abducted from him AND brainwashed to think they were the progeny of a ‘looser’ anyway.
    As for our very own head of ‘famil’ ‘court’ in NZ Boshier, from accounts you’ll read by exploring this site you’ll see the guy admits he has blood on his hands as it is, what with his kangaroo court failing abysmally to protect children by ensuring the father get a fair and open hearing with an outcome that precludes parental alienation.
    I think you make far far too much of this straw man werther effect idea too.
    precisely how many folks hung themselves by their own belts in a bedroom after the ENORMOUS publicity given to Oz superstar Michael Hutchence’s suicide?
    Zero!
    Not ten.
    Not five.
    Not even one.
    Zero.
    It reminds me somewhat of my Mom scolding me after I’d copied some daft unsafe behavior as a kid by saying “If I stuck my head in the oven, would you copy me”. “er no Mom” I’d say,and I don’t count myself as unusually independent in thought and action when it comes to not copy-catting self destruction.
    It’s called the survival instinct.
    It’s what’s driving the Men’s Movement.
    Men are already under siege from feminists and their chivalrous sidekicks. A certain number get driven to suicide. Accept it, get over it and don’t bury it beneath mumbo jumbo for the sake of winning a debate.
    I reckon the last thing we need is anyone who clearly lacks empathy and writes off guys as looser genes as allies.

  114. julie says:

    Thanks a lot RC for sharing this with me. What a shame the site is being shut down. I think I’ve visited before but I didn’t see anything like this so didn’t go back. I’m disappointed.

    This law opened the gate for the present abuses. Once a large government agency is formed, you can be sure it works to increase its power and its income. The agency will always find a way to take your money for what they force you to do. And this also sets the stage for rules which mean you can never escape your c/s debt even if you become unemployed or disabled. And, of course, usually the agency gets court powers with little real appeal possible, something few people understand.

    It was not much later that the next step, direct confiscation from a man’s paycheck, became law as well.

    Golly gosh. The government has certainly abused human rights in their actions and for this reason I can understand why Scrap wants CS scrapped.

    There were some fathers that were at divorce ‘fault’ in the 70’s and they were able to adopt their children out to the state so they didn’t have to pay CS. Unfortunately, my father was one of them.

    IMO, Irlades is saying how things got abused and I know it happened in the late 80’s, early 90’s as the laws got tougher on men because I read about the suicides in the ‘Taupo Times’, (I think that was the newspaper). I’m not sure if this is when the government made the policy so the media couldn’t report male suicides or not, but a couple of years back I wrote about a NZ man who is fighting to have this government policy uplifted. I think, if my memory serves me right, he’s a coroner that got sick of having to write reports on males who committed suicide.

    ………..

    Wow about the second wives, …. I’ve heard a few MRAs say they are valuable and they were encouraging them to do something. I used to contact the women that made a comment on this site as a follow-up to see if they wanted to help. None have stepped up so far. Oops, incorrect, no second wives stepped up but one single mother has. Hehehe, I like her lots.

  115. Celibate 3 years says:

    I have huge empathy for anyone who has to have their family voyeristically preyed upon, when they have done nothing but try and try to have a wonderful family life.

    But I refuse to have empathy for anyone that chooses suicide. Why, cause we ALL consider it at some point or another. Generally speaking, we all have the ability to have dark thoughts, and it takes will-power sometimes to turn off those dark-thoughts. We must never ever encourage empathising with people who do what we know should never be done.

    My estranged spouse had a dark thought, and it could have just stayed a dark thought, but he had heard of others getting away with it, or simply believed he could get away with it. Assisted suicide or euthanasia, is a crime is it not? Empathising, or trying to bring understanding to suicide, or rationalising it, or justifying it, or glorifying it, or paying tribute to it, could be seen as a form of assistance, and this is ILLEGAL? and hence why the media tread carefully…..

    Skeptic needs to be honest: If more men started burning themselves on the steps of Family court he would be over the moon, cause then something would be done about Family court, or he hopes it would. One lonely death, and no, nothing will be done. But if the 18 that committed suicide during Family court proceedings reported by Boshier, actually did it on the steps by dramatically burning themselves, then yes, Family court would be changed? And Skeptic thinks this? One lonely death in Australia and one copy cat death on the steps in NZ will make no difference, and thank God for that.

    18 men burning themselves simultaneously would work? but any person inciting or organising this would be DEMONISED, like Charles Mansen or some cult leader, even if they burnt themselves – they would just write it up as vulnerable men lead by a human-demon, so suicide is just never going to do the trick. It will have the opposite effect, and the same devastating effects on the children.

    Family court is flawed alright, but the real answer lies in changing the “no fault” dissolution of marriages legislation, and making it illegal to have children out of wed-lock. In other words, no sex before marriage.
    And if you do the crime (sex), you do the time in “wed-lock” – Why do you think it is called wed-lock.

    Don’t get me wrong, I would shudder to think of ending up with someone permanently that I hadn’t test-drived and turned out to be horriffic, or a major slimy non-eventful ride, but Family court – Actually I don’t know what’s worse – but before the 60s it seemed to work just fine for them back then…. If you only ever drive a honda civic, then how do you know what a porshe is like anyway? And the kids will be happy if you are happy and don’t know any better.

  116. Celibate 3 years says:

    And that is why it did work back then, BEFORE THE SEXUAL REVOLUTION.

    Before the sexual revolution, people bought one car and they didn’t test drive it. They just had a good look, felt the interior maybe a little bit but then they just bought it, knowing it would be the only ride they would have EVER.

    But later, everyone became sex obsessed and test-driving everything, and that’s when it all went wrong for the poor poor kids.

    Make sex before marriage illegal. Do the crime, do the time in wed-lock for ever. Do any other crimes like assault or adultery do the time in jail.

  117. rc says:

    What a shame the site is being shut down. I think I’ve visited before but I didn’t see anything like this so didn’t go back. I’m disappointed.

    A lot of what is posted on these sites is hurt men venting. It probably does them a world of good to get it off their chest and to see responses from other guys in the same position – to know they belong to some kind of community, as Skeptic put it earlier. However, there’s not a lot of interest value to an outsider such as yourself.

    The really interesting posts from my point of view are those made by a handful of commenters who are highly observant, who reason well and who have the gift of writing their thoughts clearly. Their insights collectively form a body of knowledge that is truly unique, and will probably be cited for years to come. Reading them I believe I experience the same sensation that the first readers of Galileo, Darwin or Dickens would have felt: the witnessing of a new frontier of knowledge or understanding opening up. Irlandes is certainly one of these pioneers to look for. Other names to read are Zenpriest (aka TGC or The Grand Curmudgeon), Curiepoint, Lorax, Paul Parmenter, and as Skeptic has already made reference to, Paul Elam.

  118. Skeptik says:

    Celibate,
    Oh my goodness,

    What a dumb lie to say:

    Skeptic needs to be honest: If more men started burning themselves on the steps of Family court he would be over the moon, cause then something would be done about Family court, or he hopes it would.

    Whoah! Delusional stuff!

    One more thing in relation to the wetherornot effect –
    I know Brisbane well. It’s a small city. Despite the scant reportage of this poor man’s suicide by mainstream media EVERYONE who is compos mentos there will know about it. In fact forget just Brisbane EVERYONE who’s compos mentos in all of Queensland will know about it.
    It’s been 7 weeks since his action.
    Rather than inspiring others to suicide by self immolation outside a courthouse as per the wetherornether effect,
    there
    has
    been
    precisely
    how
    many
    copy cat
    acts
    of
    suicide…………?

    Drumroll please…….

    Z
    E
    R
    O.

  119. julie says:

    RC,

    A lot of what is posted on these sites is hurt men venting. It probably does them a world of good to get it off their chest and to see responses from other guys in the same position — to know they belong to some kind of community, as Skeptic put it earlier. However, there’s not a lot of interest value to an outsider such as yourself.

    Venting is a good tool but you’re right in that it didn’t interest me.

    A friend told me I was 40 years too late for a gender war and too naive to get involved. I think I’ve caught up well through sites that give information on what’s happened and what’s going on today and I’ve put effort into researching things online and offline. I’ve also been fortunate that men have talked to me about all this. Some have shared their stories with me and others about their work and others about sensible roads to take and sensible judgement and others about politics, laws etc – past and present. Some even shared their own journey with me – that’s been nice.

    It’s been a (massive crash course) journey alright and I feel soooo lucky for the opportunity.

    ……….

    I didn’t quote the rest to save space but thanks for sharing. I can understand you being this way and seeing the men you mentioned as pioneers.

    I think it’s terrific what men online are doing.

    Celibate 3 years,

    Julie obviously hurts cause her father adopted her out to the State, so as not to pay CS — that is hard-core.

    I must pull you up on this, ……. no I don’t.

    It’s funny how some people come on this site and tell others who know so much more … ‘how it is’. I’ve got a feeling I’ve done it and it’s embarrassing to watch.

  120. Skeptik says:

    Celibate 3 years,

    you say –

    I am drained 24/7, and hence I don’t want hear about people burning themselves on the Family Court Steps, cause it takes will-power everyday just to get out of bed and do it each and every day for the kids.

    And no man on this site wants to hear about it either.

    I don’t know you enough and so can’t tell especially after your transparent whopping lie about me wishing for more self immolation outside courthouses to decide if all this pain you describe yourself as having is truth or a fictive description designed to manipulate sympathy for you.
    I do know there are literally thousands of places women can turn to for help when they are in emotional distress.
    If you truly do feel as anguished as you make out, then I’m confident help will be out there for you.
    The only advice I’d offer is DON’T seek help from a feminist. I’m afraid if you do you’ll only end up in even worse shape.
    Good luck.

  121. julie says:

    I think it’s Mary Poppins – back to spam the site.

  122. Skeptik says:

    Thanks Julie,
    I hadn’t thought of that.
    If that so then…….

    quick someone hit the filter switch!

  123. Scott B says:

    sad that these feminazis feel so threatened that they have to come on here and spam and abuse us! Means we’re getting to ’em though! hehehehehe

  124. Scott B says:

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/7644609/taxi-driver-assault-sparks-copycat-fears/ not exactly related but it talks about copy cats in a taxi driver assault!

  125. Scott B says:

    Seems they aren’t too scared to put this story in, nor to point out that people may copy it. Double standard.

  126. Scott B says:

    Oh yeah… and how could we have forgotten about suicide bombers? We always hear about these people and how they have not only killed themselves but possibly hundreds with them! Isn’t that worse?

  127. Scott B says:

    So I say, this myth is busted… also they don’t need to be front page stories either!

  128. MAX says:

    The great thing about being the only species that makes a distinction between right and wrong is that we can make up the rules for ourselves as we go along. D.A.

  129. Max says:

    What gets us into trouble is not what we don’t know. It’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so. M.T.

  130. Max says:

    Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

  131. Max says:

    A tremendous feeling of peace came over him. He knew that at last, for once and forever, it was now all, finally, over.

  132. Kiwi in thailand says:

    Things like you describe happen to men and women. Marriage break up is a big tragedy. But only one sex faces severe discrimination by the goverment on top of the personal tragedy. As a woman you cannot begin to realise our situation.

  133. Skeptik says:

    SUICIDE PREVENTION NEWS FROM AUSTRALIA.

    It seems that the Brisbane man who self immolated may have given the Oz populace a kick up the pants and focused the government too.
    The Australian government may have been quietly jogged by his very public suicide into action on the issue of male suicide there.
    Thanks are owed to the organization Suicide Prevention Australia especially Dr Michael Dudley and Ryan McGlaughlin who I understand lobbied hard for extra funding and pushed especially for extra funding for

    men who comprise 80% of all Oz suicides.

    See here
    then scroll down to this sub-headline : Media Release: Suicide Prevention on the Government’s Agenda
    You’ll need a PDF reader to view.

    This is no small victory as for the first time suicide prevention becomes a priority health initiative.
    They’re starting to recognize that with deaths by suicide being even more prevalent than death by motor vehicles (and even some of those may well be suicides too) it’s time to step up on suicide prevention.

  134. Phoenix says:

    Interesting isn’t it.

    Men are 80% of the suicides in Australia.

    Men are 90% of the non-custodial parents in Australia. (Assuming their figures are the same as ours.)

    Men are 40% likely to effectively loose their children forever if they don’t get custody.

    Do you think their might be a connection?

    Watch this video if you have ANY doubts as to the connection between men having their children stolen and suicide. And ladies, this is aimed at YOU!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqtdwMjgGF8

    DRIVING A MAN TO SUICIDE BY LYING, CHEATING AND MANIPULATING THE COURTS TO STEAL HIS CHILDREN, CAUSE HIM TO GO BANKRUPT AND DRIVE HIM TO SUICIDE IS AS GOOD AS MURDERING HIM!!!

  135. Kiwi in thailand says:

    This women is a nutter. Please ban her

  136. julie says:

    Do ya think? 😉
    She’s persistent to force herself on others alright. I feel real sorry for her children.

  137. Max says:

    RC’s post above (Sun 25th July 2010 at 11:07 pm) talks about the pioneers in the MRM, people like ZED (Zenpriest…) and ZED was talking about the early days and an awesome post by Paul Elam and there was quite a few subjects in there that were relevant.
    Even Welmer is in there.
    I let the masters speak:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63
    for ZED’s post and just down on his first page is a link to Paul’s Post.

  138. Skeptik says:

    Months have gone by.
    Still absolutely nothing in the Australian media about this man who died outside a Brisbane courthouse after losing out in a ‘family matter’.

    tick….tick….tick…..

    Plenty of comment starting to come from children in Sweden though.

    These High school students made the final of a local Amnesty International short film competition there. However due to feminist complaints Amnesty didn’t show the film. So it’s up to us to spread it virally.

    Please do so and don’t give donations to Amnesty International – they’ve long ago been ideologically captured by radical feminists.

  139. Skeptik says:

    Ozzie press can hang their heads in shame at STILL not publishing anything of substance about this poor man since their very scant and dismissive initial coverage of his suicide by self immolation.
    StuffNZ news web portal can for once hold their head high however.
    Although the events are tragic the folks at that web news site have actually humanized the men who are trapped underground at Pike River coal mine.
    They have not only named all 47 of them, but in a change from how they’ve reported a miriad of other articles related to men they have actually called them MEN, rather than simply miners.
    That may seem like a petty thing, but in my opinion it’s a huge step forward as it makes male tragedy much more visible than saying for instance ‘7 sailors lost at sea/power workers caught in an industrial explosion’ which gives no clue as to the sex of the sailors/ power workers.

    My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved in the tragedy at Pike River min.

  140. Wayne says:

    [sarcasm]I think the media usually prefer to disenfranchise males by referring to them by their job titles in case feminists begin demanding equal employment death and injury.[/sarcasm]

  141. Skeptik says:

    Still absolutely nothing further offered by the mainstream press on both sides of the Tasman Sea about this guys horrendous suicide.
    No interest whatsoever in his background or even his circumstances just prior to him setting himself on fire outside Brisbane family court.
    As best i can make out he was last reported in the newspapers in Oz and NZ around June 10th.
    Reported as being mentally ill and by an unnamed police ‘source’ as having committed suicide over nothing related to the family court (Yeah right – Tui moment).
    I’m sure a lot of men have left the family courts of the Anglosphere so distressed as to experience mentally illness to some degree or other (the internet is littered with their heart rending stories of subsequent depression).
    The question the mainstream media DIDN’T seek to answer is how did he become mentally ill in the first place?
    Could it possibly have anything to do with the court he self immolated outside despite what ‘an unnamed police source’ said to a journo?
    The lace curtain media may think they’ve swept his ashes under the carpet.
    There are those of us who keep him in our memories however.

  142. Skeptic says:

    It’s now been almost a year to the day since this poor guy took his own life outside the Brisbane family court house by pouring an inflammable liquid all over himself and setting himself on fire.
    I was always going to write this s name.commemorative posting even though I don’t even know the guy’s name – the Australian main stream media don’t give a shit about this guy, so haven’t had the dignity and compassion to follow up and let us, the viewing public know even that much.
    If pressed I imagine many will offer some convenient bullshit excuse that to do so would be ‘insensitive’.

    spot the parralels here.

    Although thankfully The Daily Holden newspaper had enough compassion for a much fuller reportage AND interest in what would trigger another man self immolating outside a courthouse whilst dealing with divorce and custody issues inside.

  143. rc says:

    The International Business Times has defied the usual media treatment and given Tom Ball the coverage of a political martyr.

    http://m.ibtimes.com/thomas-ball-self-immolate-child-support-164827.html

    In the past, the self-immolators have appeared early in the evolution of protest – they foreshadow the warriors that inevitably follow by demonstrating the profound depth of feeling. It is quite eerie, watching from the sidelines as this extreme injustice plays out in such a predictable manner, and observing those in its path so unconcerned. It reminds me of watching that ugly great wave approaching the coast of Japan only a few months back, knowing what it would do once it struck, but knowing also that no matter how hard you yelled, nothing would stop it from following its course.

  144. Hans Laven says:

    Thanks Skeptic for reminding us about the unknown Brisbane sacrificial man. There is little doubt he made a statement related to a man’s experience of the Family Court. If he simply wanted to escape the hell of a man’s life under feminist law then he could have committed suicide privately or in a way that could be mistaken for an accident (this is probably more common than one might imagine). But instead, he burnt himself to death right outside the Court as a public spectacle, highlighting the role of the Court in treating him as worthless and making his life intolerable. If a woman had done the same brave act of martyrdom just imagine the outcry and media attention, judicial hand-wringing, feminists’ audiences with their chief Family Court honcho and government ministers, and a raft of new feminist legislation to make things better for women!

    The apathy shown towards this man actually vindicates his gesture, proves him right. He has invited his feminism-soaked society to demonstrate its contempt for men and his society has obliged. He is a mirror for his people and one day they may turn their heads and see themselves. Keeping his memory alive is a good idea. He is a symbol of our era and our respect and writing bring him closer to a role as leader and saviour.

    Thomas Ball is another martyr, with more presence of mind leading him to make his protest clear by first writing to the media.

  145. Hans Laven says:

    Thanks for that link rc. The Thomas Ball story is a good example of the extent to which ‘non-violence’ has become a dangerous, absolutist, irrational religion. The violence the State does to children and their families is often many times worse than the ‘violence’ the State believes it is protecting the child from. It may not be a whole stolen generation but it’s a significant proportion of our generation. Just like previous administrations who thought removing children from their aboriginal parents would be better for those children, our government thinks that it’s good for children to wrench them from loving parents who break feminist ideological dictates.

  146. rc says:

    You’re welcome Hans. There’s an interesting commentary at Lew Rockwell concerning this incident:

    http://lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w219.html

    It’s not until one reads how extreme the war on men is in the U.S. that one gets a glimpse of what awaits us if we aren’t careful. Germany in the 1930s probably felt no less normal to most of its citizens at the time.

  147. Skeptic says:

    Thanks rc,
    Wpw! I went to the link you provided and read Lew Rockwell’s commentary after reading the last statement from suicidee Thomas Ball.

    Absolutely chilling.
    I knew things were worse for fathers in USA than they are in NZ (we’re simply talking degrees of feminist terrorism here). But I had no idea things were THAT bad for men in USA. It gives me serious pause for thought that we must do what we can to ensure we NZers don’t slide further towards a USA type situation.
    Now I’m going to take a break as reading this stuff has been a harrowing experience.

  148. Darryl X says:

    It’s official. The US is now a police state. Check out the most recent US Supreme Court decision concerning a man from South Carolina jailed for child support. No wonder this fellow in the article chose self immolation. Just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse.

  149. Darryl X says:

    Here’s a link to a great analysis of the US Supreme Court decision about a man in South Carolina jailed for child support.

    http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=17083#more-17083

    More and more men are choosing suicide because it is the last and only choice they have that is theirs.

  150. Darryl X says:

    A man committed self immolation and died this past week in front of a court house in New Hampshire this past week because he had been alienated for so long from his children by a malicious mother.

    My previous report about the recent US Supreme Court decision about jailing men and child support was followed immediately in several media outlets with a report about more and more people in the US joining militias and buying guns, even people who have never owned or thought of owning them. And the number of militias is growing – one-thousand-and-one-hundred (eleven hundred) are now recognized.

    It is widely acknowledged that our President is withdrawing troops from Afghanistan and bringing them back to the US in support of an imminent declaration of marial law here.

    It’s going to be a long hot summer.

  151. SKeptik says:

    Remember: Thomas Ball’s immolation, he gave his life for your children.

  152. MurrayBacon says:

    I couldn’t find the name, but there were no real issues involved! (according to Australian police) He was just suffering from a mental illness, perhaps of being male in front of a caught$?

    He was rushed to the Royal Brisbane Hospital in a critical condition, but died overnight.

    Police are investigating the incident and will prepare a report for the coroner.
    One witness said the man, who had a ”calm” expression on his face, built a ”little barbecue” around himself before using methylated spirits and a lighter.
    ”It was massive (the fire) – he was engulfed in it,” the witness said. ”It was horrific.”
    Another witness reported hearing a loud bang before seeing the man in flames.
    A police source said the the man was suffering a mental illness and the incident did not appear to be related to any ongoing court matters.
    – with AAP

    You will be reassured that “The System” is still safe, he was just a discredited nutcase of a man.
    I hope that history will bring out a realistic truth.
    It is important that all men know that rational suicide can achieve calm and peace with the world. There is always a way of escape for you.
    Technical correction – methylated spirits or petroleum spirits?
    When considering whether you want go with a bang or a whimper, you can choose inward or outward directed violence and methylated or petroleum spirits?
    I would guess that outward directed violence gets 20x the media column inches but only about 2x the degree of public influence, of inward directed violence?
    There is always a choice to be made, you are not trapped onto this earth.

    Better to just spend a year or two dead for tax and cs purposes.
    Negotiation seems to be just a waste of time, with these people.

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