Abortion.
Former police minister George Hawkins wants a change to abortion laws to ensure women who have multiple abortions get counselling on contraception and sterilisation.
Stuff Link: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3592112a6160,00.html
Mr Hawkins says he supports a woman’s right to have an abortion but is disturbed by figures that show that in 2004 more than 2000 women were seeking a third abortion.
It is somewhat paradoxical that historically our social freedom often relied on the virility to kill the enemy; now in a secure society it should for women rely on their ability to abort our future.
The ability to choose if and when we should procreate is a freedom that differentiates us from any other reproducing life form on the planet, yet beyond any degree of irresponsibility around that power to create a life we have granted individuals the authority to end a life.
Abortion is irresponsibility upon irresponsibility.
If you parallel this against another article
Stuff Link: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3593849a10,00.html
The woman who killed Wairarapa toddler Hinewaoriki “Lillybing” Karaitiana-Matiaha in one of the country’s most appalling child abuse cases says she smoked P and downloaded porn on her cellphone in jail.
Perhaps women have a selfish perception as to where freedom ends and responsibility starts.
I wonder if men will soon have a say in whether or not a baby they helped conceive, should be aborted or not …
… is would this take too much power away from the mothers?
Comment by Al D Rado — Sun 5th March 2006 @ 8:11 pm
I think before this is written about, real reserch is entered into. I think you will find our hospitals are doing abortions mostly for students that come from countries such as china where sex is not discussed openly. They are not educated about safe sex as New Zealanders are.
I think it is good someone shows initiative to do something about the amount of abortions. The hospitals are concerned.
Family planning clinics for New Zealanders are very open in discussing this sort of thing.
Comment by julie — Sun 5th March 2006 @ 9:14 pm
From time to time statistics regarding abortions are published, particularly in regard to who it is that is having abortions.
I don’t have any stats, so can only speak of my recollections, and whilst asians feature more prominently in the repeat clientelle stacks, there is nothing to suggest they are coming to this country specifically to have abortions.
Possibly that is the case, but not to any extent that I have ever heard reported.
The sad reality is that some 18000 abortions are performed each year, mostly simply because the mother does not want to have a child.
Some research was recently published regarding the depression etc that these woman have subsequently, often years down the track.
What about the fathers?
Did they have no say?
How many fathers even knew their partners had opted to abort a child that they had both conceived?
How many fathers in later years wonder about the child they culd have had?
There is a complete imbalance of power when women, and solely women, have the sole say on whether the child is born or not.
Yes, women have the priviledge of carrying the baby.
But just imagine, if it were ever possible, to face the aborted child twenty years later and explain why you chose to deny it a life.
A year or so back, a prominent pro-abortionist (Dr Margaret Sparrow) commented on why so many abortions were performed in this country, that perhaps we just needed more sex education in schools.
But haven’t we had this for twenty or more years already?
And whilst there was a slight drop in the number of abortions last year, the numbers of babies aborted in the years since it was effectively legalised (it was either that or have so many thousands upon thousands of women walking our streets with mental health issues, having borne these children), the numbers of aborted babies simply blossomed.
My concern wouldn’t be so much for whether or not a child is aborted – that’s a very emotive debate, and one will find plenty of emotive exceptions to support an argument.
My concern would be for the right of fathers to have some say in the decision making process.
That’s equality.
Comment by Al D Rado — Sun 5th March 2006 @ 10:00 pm
I have been talking to a solo dad who has expressed his thoughts (the same as what you are saying) and have come to realise that I totally didn’t understand the differences between male and female.
I have commented on this site without full understanding of situations, feelings and thoughts between sexes.
It has been concluded that I should not comment anymore although I want others to know that this has been a good learning experience for me.
So in conclusion I wish you all the best with your endevours to care and help each other.
Comment by julie — Mon 6th March 2006 @ 10:00 am
I think that you have discovered that the differences in the way we think can be translated into Gender Politics. How else could you achieve equality if you didn’t have Gender Politics. It is like the left arguing with the right. Sad though that you should think that you can no longer participate because you hold a different point of view. That is usually how wars start.
Comment by Bevan Berg — Mon 6th March 2006 @ 11:48 pm
Well you are right Bevan. I had stumbled on this site through a male and through a male I thought the best thing was to stop. But something inside of me was triggered. You don’t know me but what I have learned more than anything is that my ex-husband that was my best friend never confided in me as you all do.
He is a best friend of mine as he always will be. But I guess I wasn’t a best friend after all.
From being on this site I have become a closer friend to my male friends and learn’t heaps about them I wouldn’t have if it hadn’t been for this site.
I believed that not participating on this website would be best for guys.
Now I think maybe teaching us women is a good idea.
I have not visited a website so intellegent. Many of us women love the to learn about males so I hope you don’t mind but I have given other women the website.
Also I have given male friends intellegent as yourselves the same website.
So I hope we can support each other.
Comment by julie — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 9:21 pm
Please pass this website on to the men you know too!
Comment by Al D Rado — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 9:41 pm
Already happening
Comment by julie — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 9:57 pm
Thank you.
Actually, I’m reminded of a song written by Joe Jackson a few years back. It had the line
“kill all the blacks; kill all the reds.
And if there’s war between the sexes then there’ll be no people left”.
Comment by Al D Rado — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:07 pm
Well. Joe Jackson. That must be more than a few years ago?
You are so right. We need each other. I was thinking today and I hope you don’t take it the wrong way but even from my teenage years I saw guys never take chances because they lost families.
I didn’t understand then and I still see males defeated once thier marriages break up.
My thought was (please understand for I am just a woman) that maybe they would have been stronger if women didn’t become equal.
Will you be honest with your reply.
Comment by julie — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:20 pm
To intentionally put oneself doen is manipulation and emotional abuse.
I only speak for myself: When you go through the system, and are spat out the other side, sans teeth, sans children, sans everything, (to paraphrase Shakespeare – who said we were intelligent? I’m quite happy to refer to a higher authority)
then you have little incentive to try again.
You have little faith in those who have manipulated the system to strip men of everything they ever stood for.
You ask (rather crudely) if things were better under the patriarchal system that went afore?
I won’t answer that.
But I will say at least in the past there seemed to be a better working of mothers and fathers together for the overall good of their children.
Joe Jackson:
Take your mind back – I don’t know when
Sometime when it always seemed
To be just us and them
Girls that wore pink
And boys that wore blue
Boys that always grew up better men
Than me and you
What’s a man now – what’s a man mean
Is he rough or is he rugged
Is he cultural and clean
Now it’s all change – it’s got to change more
’cause we think it’s getting better
But nobody’s really sure
And so it goes – go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are
See the nice boys – dancing in pairs
Golden earring golden tan
Blow-wave in the hair
Sure they’re all straight – straight as a line
All the gays are macho
Can’t you see their leather shine
You don’t want to sound dumb – don’t want to offend
So don’t call me a faggot
Not unless you are a friend
Then if you’re tall and handsome and strong
You can wear the uniform and I could play along
And so it goes – go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are
Time to get scared – time to change plan
Don’t know how to treat a lady
Don’t know how to be a man
Time to admit – what you call defeat
’cause there’s women running past you now
And you just drag your feet
Man makes a gun – man goes to war
Man can kill and man can drink
And man can take a whore
Kill all the blacks – kill all the reds
And if there’s war between the sexes
Then there’ll be no people left
And so it goes – go round again
But now and then we wonder who the real men are
Comment by Al D Rado — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:31 pm
Oh, I’ve done it again. I probably said or asked what I shouldn’t have. If you knew my friends they would say, “That’s just Julie, she speaks her mind.”
But when I asked them if I was possibly a male hater, they laughed.
I guess I am intellegent but dumb in some areas. Yet I am kind and no-one would argue that.
Comment by julie — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:33 pm
So are you still going through the pain?
Comment by julie — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:38 pm
The real question in terms of equality in parenting is:
Just when will mothers relinquish full control and power in motherhood, and work in complete equality with fathers for the overall good of their children.
And that equality starts at conception.
Comment by Al D Rado — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:40 pm
Well I was talking that with a friend and the fact is women don’t have to.
We were talking about the DPB in New Zealand which is higher than Australia. In the USA a woman has to go to work for her benefit.
The USA’s way of sorting this problem is stupid as they make mothers work basically day and night to recieve help and this is currupt governmet bullshit. (look into it for that’s all I’ve got to say)
Women are better off on their own in New Zealand and that makes it easy to leave thier partners. Males basically live on a thin line in families these days.
How sad that is.
But there are many women doing well on their own in high paying jobs with child support from thier ex-partners on high incomes.
You are right for the system is encouraging this.
Why would a woman work with a male when she can have it all and her way.
Unfortunately we as most western countries think of the short term. We don’t consider how this will affect the children in the long run.
Comment by julie — Tue 7th March 2006 @ 10:55 pm
Julie,
Your very frank admission with regards to the power within families women have QUOTE –
“Why would a woman work with a male when she can have it all and her way” is both extremely unusual and very refreshing.
It bespeaks the kind of sickening misandric attitude that’s soon thankfully to be part of history.
Prior to reading your statement I can only ever recall the vast majority of NZ women discussing the topic of relationships with men bemoaning how ‘disempowered’ they were or clamming up in strategic silence refusing to be drawn on the subject of men’s sorry state.
This has happened whilst I’ve all too frequently met many of them cruising around using hard earned tax dollars as BBQ – Bludging Benefit Queens after having crushed thier menfolk with false accusations, move aways to other provinces with the kid/s and other violent acts. Methods which are far more effective in hurting someone and easy as pie to deny – unlike the tell tale physical bruise/s a guy lashing out physically might create.
However as more and more men share with each other thier experiences of women doing these sorts of things a common theme is emerging as men connect thier experience of
DISPOSABILITY.
It seems to me this steadily growing awareness amongst men is inevitably leading to a paradigm shift this is already well underway.
The most worrying thing about this is that the process of treating men as disposable is naturally breeding resentment in more and more men as time goes by.
For nobody likes to feel they’re being used and then thrown away like unwanted garbage.
However trawling the web convinces me that’s precisely the feeling that more and more western guys are finding they have in common with each other when it comes to thier womenfolk – and to which they’ll react individually and collectively.
For examples check out the massive number of hits on
Angryharry.com
Mensnewsdaily.com
Matthew Weeks – ‘Men’s marriage strike’.
I reckon you’ll get the picture fairly pronto.
Now factor in that THE MALE PILL HAS ARRIVED.
It’s here.
There’s no going back.
The Genie is out of the bottle – BIGTIME.
It’s being used in Holland as we speak.
Check it out – google it.
It’s 100% effective with tiny side effects (trials reveal minor weight gain for a very few men).
It’ll inevitably make it’s way to NZ soon.
Get used to it.
Now ask yourself “With widespread resentment amongst our (soon to be pill taking) menfolk, and thier fear of coupling with women who they see as predatory users, how will women be able to become mothers?
Or let’s put it another way –
Why would men who’ve seen themselves and/or other men (Dad’s, Uncles, workmates, sports club buddies etc) humiliated and broken by the loss of children, assets, reputation/mana and health want to risk the same by cohabitting and breeding with women – when they can simply date and take a pill that’s 100% effective with no side effects?
It’s an absolute no brainer IMO.
Welcome to the new world – the next sexual revolution.
As the female pill and abortion on demand freed up women to move beyond biology as destiny, so the male pill and DNA paternity testing will in a sense do so for men.
I’d urge men to push for this.
The fembos will squeal of course, but won’t have a leg to stand on as it’ll simply be rightly framed by men as an equal right’s issue – along the lines of it’s my body, my choice, and women have the pill, so you can’t justly deny me it too.
If I were to be asked how I think women should adjust to this I’d say you’d better completely rethink how to relate to men and realise the tables have completely turned. You’d better be a whole lot more respectful towards your menfolk.
Men are getting free of female domination!
Guys take a loooooooooooooooooooong time finding women who don’t give you shit by taking advantage of your largess. Cool it down fellas, time’s working for you on this one. It’s not your biological clock that’s ticking like a time bomb.
Read your history books and you’ll also realise this was inevitable.
Men do genius like this stuff, and they sooner or later break free of any yoke of oppression too.
Peace folks.
Rave over.
Comment by Stephen — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 6:02 am
We started on abortion, but perhaps I might conclude that if Men and Women cannot value each other, then what chance has the child.
Comment by Bevan Berg — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 7:54 am
Sorry Bevan but I feel something else needs to be added so my comment doesn’t get out of hand.
I don’t think it is out of line to be honest but there is always more than one angle to look at something especially in social services.
I don’t take my comment back but would like for those reading it to consider the beginnings of the DPB.
I mean menfolk and womenfolk died easily many years ago from TB, Influenza, wars ect.
Women in New Zealand were not allowed to work and the only way to feed thier children if they were on thier own was through tins of food being dropped of by social workers, neighbours and the like.
Truth is some bad things do happen in some homes and for children’s sakes the family seperates.
One partner goes to jail for a long time leaving behind an unsupported family, goes to war and dies. I mean the list could go on and on.
Before the DBP was available in Australia my mother who was a single widow parent of 5 kids under the age of 5 (dad died when I was 4)worked in a pottery factory during the day and at Cadbury’s at nights.
She like most single parents were having to decide whether or not to hand thier children over to government agencies for abandoned/abused children.
The DPB itself is important.
Inland revenue told me a while ago that they don’t want to be collecting child support but they do it because the parents can seem to sort it out themselves.
Bevan is right. Equality and respect is only going to come from men and women themselves.
Comment by julie — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 9:16 am
Yes Julie the DPB is important.
I personally know a string of women who successfuly used it to buy cars and houses, and go beach and cafe hopping during the 90s on Wiheke Island.
One woman used to smugly bait me that she had her mortgage on her $350,000 dollar home being paid whilst she got herself out of bed every day around 10am – several hours after her only dependant daughter had gotten herself breakfasted and off to school. Meanwhile I was struggling financially and paying child support for a son I never saw. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound!!
It was then I realise how dreadfully easy it was for women to use the DPB as a lifestyle scam.
Returning to the subject of abortion.
I also personally knew another woman on Waiheke Island who had 3 kids on the DPB, and ………………wait for it………….. 5 abortions!
Her women friends knew all about this and hushed it up until one night the woman in question got drunk and let it slip out – in a moment of guilt I suspect.
The point I make from all of this is that whilst in some circumstances DPB and abortion are needed I’ve come to believe thier far too open to abuse.
The silent majority – taxpayers are the ones who suffer by footing the bill.
Every avoidable abortion, every needless DPB is a hip replacement, cataract, meal on wheels, wheelchair etc that can’t be supplied to those in far greater need than irresponsible women.
The old bullshit about women needing more education on family planning and it being Asian immigrants who’re filling abortion clinics just won’t wash anymore. As a social worker and dilligent observer over many years of where my tax dollars are going I’ve seen too much evidence of other things to get sucked in by those ideas.
As more women have also entered the paid workforce they get to feel how it is to have high rates of personal income tax fuelling abortions and solo parenthood.
It’s the grim underbelly of society our current govt either doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge, or if it does simplistically thinks throwing more cash at can solve.
Again my thoughts return to the MALE PILL however.
Perhaps men given this device will be the ones responsible enough to stop the cycle of young women abusing welfare by irresponsible breeding and flippant abortion.
Comment by Stephen — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 4:13 pm
Wow!
I love those last few posts.
I can have a lot of intelligent stuff (diced with a carefully measured dose of cynicism) to say on a number of things – but I’m not the only one!
Comment by Al D Rado — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 7:08 pm
I am not disagreeing with anything you say. These 2 topics are being discussed amongst work collegues, book clubs and more all the time.
Only today I was talking to one of my bosses who told me how another female collegue has fallen pregnant to a male during a 2 week fling. She wants to keep the baby and wants him to support her.
He doesn’t want her or the baby. The male pill will be a great thing.
Yes we all have an opinion on this.
I have a male friend who is almost 60 and childless. He would make a great dad and wished he had of had a child. He found out that a girlfriend he was in a serious relationship aborted his baby without him even knowing let alone have a say. He was devestated.
Males and females do think about the babies they would have had and when they look at others the same age as thier child would have been they can’t help but wonder this and that.
OK so we find away to give men the right to be part of the decision making of these unborn babies. Then we have to give them the right to say, “Yes, I want it” or “No I don’t”
When I was pregnant to my son my boyfriend at the time who I ended up marrying offered to pay for the abortion. I said forget it, I’m keeping it.
We didn’t have the lifestyle some other women have and my ex never had any other children.
My son loves his dad and his dad loves him.
Over my dead body would any other human being have been able to take away from me my right to keep my son.
The DPB has become a great source of income and many women are endevouring the career of having babies just to receive it.
The system was put in place to help but it has got way out of hand.
Comment by julie — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 9:06 pm
At the end of the day, Julie, you have portrayed both sides of the fence (quite well too), both of which are essentially selfish.
And whilst it is obviously impossible for the unborn child to have any say, they should actually be the decider!
Would a mother proceed to have a child, if the father did not want a child, and therefore would not liable for child support?
Should a mother be forced to have a child, because the father wants it?
The whole area is frought with difficulty. But when someone chooses to proceed, or not proceed with a the birth of a child, then in reality that person is putting their own needs above that of the impending person.
I might sound pro-life.
I don’t really know.
But I am pro equal-choice – for both men and women.
Courts clearly are not an option for decision making, given the time frames that could be involved!
Comment by Al D Rado — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 9:26 pm
There could be a system set up to make these decisions and that wouldn’t be a bad idea.
You are right that the courts could not enter into this for time reasons.
Like a post you wrote there are so many questions that need to be considered.
A decision could be that the mother or father will take custody and that the other will not have to be involved by paying money ect.
However, as life goes on people change thier minds.
What if the baby ended up being sick or deformed and the parents change thier minds.
What can be put in place so the parent who doesn’t want the child isn’t harrassed in any way.
And of course what about the child’s rights.
Today even being a sperm or egg donor has consequenses because children have the right to know who created them.
Comment by julie — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 9:40 pm
Leaving aside certain effective contraceptives, including one common little two letter word,
the real issue here is not whether or not to abort, or how to deal with raising the child,
it is how to give equal say in the decision making processes
and leaving aside particular emotive arguments such as pregnacy through rape, etc.
Too, it can’t be denied that the mother is the carrier of little bubsie, and breast-feeding is best (although by no means mandatory).
Yes, certainly giving one of the parents a complete and secure ‘out’ of parenting offers a solution, but as you rightly point out, the child has certain raights including knowing his/her parentage.
Freedom from child-support obligations, and not availing DPB will also enforce both parties to think hard about going it alone.
And quite rightly, as others have pointed out, a male pill in conjunction with thw female pill will provide an effective means of ensuring consensus – for conception at least!
But surely, at the end of the day, a return to sound family values, where children are a natural consequence of family bliss is perhaps one alternative?
Comment by Al D Rado — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 9:50 pm
You wrote, quote, “A return to sound family values, where children are a natural consequence of family bliss is perhaps one alternative?”
It is the number one alternative. These values are important in all areas. The family and their values are the foundation for the rest of a person’s life.
We are in a lot of trouble and it looks to get worse before it will get better.
We have to educate our young one’s so that they don’t make the same mistakes we have.
I just want to add that Stephen suggested I look at a site http://www.angryharry.com which I have found overwhelming.
I think it wouldn’t hurt to tell others to look at the site and just for laughs (laughs are healthy) look at the humor. It is so funny. http://www.harrysnews.com/pghumor.htm
Comment by julie — Wed 8th March 2006 @ 10:32 pm