Reactions of women compared to men.
My story is pretty bad but so are many fathers. One thing I learnt years ago is that there is always another father with an even worse experience than yours. Mine is a bad one all the same.
When I tell people about my story with my ex, the family court and so on, I find that women at least at first find it hard to believe, whereas men believe it. Also I find that women are much more shocked that a mother could behave that way whereas men aren’t particularly surprised. I find this observation holds up pretty consistently. I think it is says a lot about women and society.
My question to you fathers is: do you find a similar pattern to the reactions when you tell people about your situation/story?
Yes, of course, i agree, particularly women in 40s and older, from the era when men stood up to let a woman sit down on buses etc and just do not know what particularly young women are capable of.
My girlfriend’s “ex” had a similar Father’s tale to mine, so she well understands what i (we all) have gone through. Jail/Police/Complete Injustice/C.S
She did have a traumatic time too, but mens’ hurt is the unfairness of it all and the abuse by the state as well as personal feelings of being let down.
The worst story i have heard on here , was the guy who was kicked out of NZ as a new Permanant Resident, whose wife took out a P.O , then agreed to go out with him regularly, but eventually reported him to the police. He then got a criminal record , which resulted in him being deported.
And the Fijian Indian women who marry NZ Indian men, as soon as they are here they make the usual fale allegations and AUTOMATICALY get Residency and the usual stuff, the men (born in NZ) lose their houses.
WOMEN ARE SURELY DANGEROUS ! Best to choose a good SANE one , if there are many of them left !
Comment by Martin Swash — Tue 18th November 2008 @ 6:28 am
I get some “well there must be 2 sides to every story” responses, and “well words CAN be as bad as physical assault”, in essence they are saying the old NZ cops jibe “What did you do to deserve that” .
Yeah being threatened with a knife and nearly losing your eye after being hit in the face with a baton, are NOT the same as being called names !
Comment by Martin Swash — Tue 18th November 2008 @ 9:12 am
Most women I tell about my story just cry and
say how could this happen in New Zealand? One lady
friend was beaten up by police. She complained to PCA
and they said, “you should expect that living with Peter
Burns”. He still carries her injury from the cowardly
attack. Good old family court eh?!!
Comment by dad4justice — Tue 18th November 2008 @ 5:25 pm
I agree also. I will never forget organising 2 men, one for CS and one for father’s issues for an interview with the local paper. Both times something happened where the men could not make the interview so I went thinking that all I had learnt was good enough.
But when it came to the interview I said, Umm, well, you see, gosh .. and then I said a little.
Both times I felt lucky because the male journalist basically told me what I was trying to say. And I was saying, “Yes, that is what I want to say”. He has mates who are going through the same thing. Then major groups where men work are the same. “Yes, I agree, my mate or my brother or my dad went through blah, blah. blah.
But women seem to be lost in the clouds. I don’t mean to say they are unintelligent but rather they are naive to what men are facing. Oh, but they do care when you show them.
I like Simon from the Herald. He is cool and understanding. He wrote about CYFSwatch and when I asked wrote a really good article about paternity and CS. There was a good case going on at the time and there was also a good group to contact.
Comment by julie — Tue 18th November 2008 @ 7:42 pm
Dear Julie,
You initially failed by having inability to progess, thus being unable for referral of the matter to a suitable spokesperson.
You actually “succeeded” by having a media presence involved.
Simon Collins from the Herald is the award winning Journalist and the spokesperson that refuted the latest award due to media shift and the doctrine being enforced.
Simon followed my case, gave intensive report, but was then refused further entry into proceedings, as they incorporated Domestic Violence Proceedings and he was thus barred.
Simon does recognise the injustice of men and has stepped forward within his ability to provide report.
I refer back to my opening statement You failed by having inability to progess, thus unable for referral of the matter to a suitable spokesperson.
Comment by Paul Catton — Tue 18th November 2008 @ 8:44 pm
Paul, I am going to keep failing until the in-house fighting stops. I shouldn’t have to take a side. I should be allowed to call on anyone without anyone else being upset.
We can lobby the NZherald if we could just be on one side. We can give a vioce to Simon and others like him.
Even Paula Bennett has spoken to the young at Unitec over gender issues.
Comment by julie — Tue 18th November 2008 @ 10:15 pm
Call me an optimist but I think there are many young women below 25 who are more aware of the reality of modern life. It is not unusual to hear them say things like “I am not a feminist”. This illustrates that they are aware that modern feminism is not about equality. Also this age group are quite likely to have themselves or their friends be fatherless and have now reached the age where they realise how negative that has been for them.
Also these very young women are facing a situation where they are likely to be more highly educated and have more career options than males their age. Therefore they find themselves competing for a smaller pool of males with attributes they find attractive. Added to that is that males are increasingly leaving NZ, killing themselves or opting out of relationships where they can loose everything. Hence the next generation of women are going to find they are increasingly competing for a reducing pool of marriageable men.
I think men in general are also starting to avoid marriage since they realise they have so much to loose and no protections. The fabled male fear of commitment is actually fear of loosing everything to a woman who may not have any commitment to them in the future. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of this.
NZ has a man drought but the majority of women in their 30s and 40s don’t behave as if there is. I think the next generation of potential mothers are more aware of the reality. They are also more likely to have to behave differently. At least that’s my hope for the future
Comment by Dave — Wed 19th November 2008 @ 2:40 pm
Of course generalising about women is problematic. It is nothing but a generalisation. However I have given this a lot of thought and discussed it with both men and women. I find that as long as one accepts these views are only a generalisation, and there is wide variance, then I find that most people tend to agree.
Comment by Dave — Wed 19th November 2008 @ 2:45 pm
I also find that older women are probably the most shocked at the way some mothers behave and the way the system supports them. Many of these older women have sons or friends with sons who are affected. My mother is a bit of a gossip and she finds people her age all the time with sons screwed over by the family court.
Comment by Dave — Wed 19th November 2008 @ 2:48 pm
I do accept that many very young women demonstrate a lack of control and empathy. There are so many Corney Love and Paris Hilton types which we never saw before who are now idealised. These very young women have gone through most of their lives without the need to consider consequences.
I accept that this doesn’t bode well for the fathers of the future at all.
So things may not be all roses with the next generation. I just prefer to be an optimist.
Comment by Dave — Wed 19th November 2008 @ 2:54 pm
I also find that it is often women who have partnered up with a separated father who are the most vocal about the injustices of the family court and child support. This group of women are more aware of the realities of these issues than most other groups. They are often not backward in saying what they think about it either.
Comment by Dave — Wed 19th November 2008 @ 3:02 pm
Think of what propoganda we are all spoon fed as a society, and that is why people react in such a way. What we are told as children, beware of men, men are bad, Girls are made with sugar andspice and everything nice, but what are little boys made of? Snails and puppy dogs tails. (there was one more in the boys thing but can’t remember it now) The its not ok campaign, featuring only men… the list goes on and on. Women are protrayed as angelic most of the time. Men who have dealt with a woman or two like this or have seen their brothers, fathers, mates etc know differently. Before we get any success we have to wake society up to realising that people from both sexes can be good or bad. I have heard people on a number of occasions see a young girl pushing a pram/stroller/pushchair and say “Oh the father must have done a runner!” We are dealing with years of propoganda that’s been drilled into us… we need to start evening it up a bit.
Comment by Scott — Wed 19th November 2008 @ 4:03 pm
Possibly pertinent to this thread is my recent correspondence with Amnesty International about its active promotion of White Ribbon Day:
Dear Rebecca (Of Amnesty International)
In NZ and most western countries men are overwhelmingly the victims of
violence. It is sexist to focus only on violence against women.
Furthermore, violence by women is trivialized and excused.
I would support your campaign if it showed fairness to men rather than
promoting feminist propaganda.
Yours sincerely
Hans Laven
Dear Margaret
Thank you for your reply.
You agree “men too are often the victims of violence”. In fact men are much more often the victims of violence than are women. Regardless, if men are often the victims of violence, why do you mount a campaign denouncing violence only when it is against women?
You say “Amnesty International is proud to be a feminist organisation”, defined as advocating equal rights for women as for men. Yet you call for women as a group to be given special consideration that you do not seek for men as a group. You imply that violence against women is somehow more special and significant than is violence against men. This reminds me of George Orwell’s words describing his animal farm in which all animals were to be equal: “but some animals are more equal than others”.
If your campaign targeted particular groups of women, e.g. politically imprisoned and tortured as your campaigns concerning men do, then it would be justified. As it stands, it mainly extends feminist propaganda and ongoing female privilege.
Yours sincerely
Hans Laven
Comment by Hans Laven — Thu 20th November 2008 @ 11:04 pm
Hans your correspondence was wonderful to read.
I wonder though if you understand that for groups like Amnesty International to pick up a move means there has to be at least one major group working the move.
They don’t have a whole lot of people to give out assignment to.
If men on men violence is semi OK to work with but you feel women on men’s violence is worse for men then you need to make a movement towards that argument. At the moment you have transgender people and gays also working on violence from heterosexual men. I am not sure how many deaths they have counted from women.
Women violent to children is something that is being worked on also. These are things mainstream groups pick up and gain funding and recognition for.
It seems to me that politicians and police have spoken up about men needing safe houses but not actual refuges. Maybe opening refuges is on the cards for the MRM. It is not going to be easy but it hasn’t been easy for any other groups so far. The smacking bill itself took 30 years to come about.
Just a thought, but maybe asking AI what you need to do to qualify for their support might be worthwhile. Like I say, I have not had the hate from feminists targeting me so I can’t say what will happen to you.
Comment by julie — Fri 21st November 2008 @ 11:21 am
I totally agree Hans. Last year it was a fizzer when people refused to wear theese signs of cowardice. In my memory it started in Canada, as stated, however it recogniste ALL (Women, children, and MEN) of family violence. Now the Fems have pirated the original meaning.
I for one shall be refusing to wear one.
Remember in WW1 a white feather was handed to those who were not in uniform!
Comment by Alastair — Fri 21st November 2008 @ 11:26 am
Julie,
Your mistaking ideology for research.
Regards
Scrap
Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Fri 21st November 2008 @ 5:10 pm
Scrap, Can you be a little more effusive please?
Comment by Alastair — Fri 21st November 2008 @ 5:25 pm
The correspondence with Amnesty International continues:
Hello Hans,
you are welcome to your opinion. Amnesty International bases its
campaigns on the basis of well researched facts and figures and we have
overwhelming evidence highlighting that disproportionately women
globally are more likely to experience violence simply because they are
women.
And yes as I’ve already stated Amnesty is dedicated to furthering
feminism – the right of women to enjoy the same rights as men.
* There is nothing privileged about being a 13-year old Somali
lass stoned to death – “guilty” of being raped.
* There is nothing privileged abut the hundreds of thousands of
women in the Darfur region of Sudan, or the Democratic Republic of Congo
(DRC) who today and daily face the risk of torture including rape when
simply attempting to go about their daily lives.
* There is nothing privileged about the millions of women who were
never even given the right to life due to sex-selective abortions in
China and India.
You and I are however privileged to live in a country where mostly human
rights are respected. And I am privileged every day to be able to take
action to protect and promote the rights of men, women and children.
Margaret Taylor, Activism Support Manager
Amnesty International Aotearoa New Zealand
ph: +64-9-303-4519 mob: +64-21-729 373 fax: +64-9-303 4528
Te Piringa, 68 Grafton Road, Auckland, 1010
P O Box 5300, Wellesley St, Auckland, 1141
… and my reply:
Hello Margaret
Can you direct me to the research you claim shows women experience violence more than do men? Your case examples in no way prove your claim; I could
provide as many examples of men being tortured and killed in horrible ways.
All research and official figures I have seen show that men in most countries are much more likely to be the victims of street violence. Both rigorous
longitudinal studies in NZ show that men are as often the victims of domestic violence at the hands of their female partners although the seriousness of
domestic violence against women is on average greater.
It is men who are mostly sent to the front lines in wars, and it is men who are conscripted for fighting wars on behalf of governments.
Further, in NZ men make up almost 100% of workplace deaths every year, and the vast majority of serious workplace accidents. Sending men into such
situations is another form of violence.
Also, men die about 5 years earlier than do women, and men die more often from the ten leading causes of death in most western countries.
You assert that women are subjected to violence because they are women, but exactly the same applies to men in all the examples above.
I am quite sure your claim is incorrect. It proves my point that AI is spreading false feminist propaganda. The White Ribbon Campaign is little more
than a campaign of violence against men.
I look forward to the references you claim support your claim.
Hans Laven
Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 25th November 2008 @ 8:15 pm
And some more, first from Margaret at Amnesty International:
Here is that link –
http://www.amnesty.org/en/ai_search?did_adv_search=true&keywords=&sort=d
ate&start_date=&end_date=®ion=**ALL**&issue=2060&language=en&document
_types%5Breports%5D=reports&document_types%5Bpress_materials%5D=press_ma
terials&document_types%5Burgent_actions%5D=urgent_actions&document_types
%5Baudio_video%5D=audio_video&document_types%5Bother%5D=other&op=Search+
Document+Library&form_id=amnestysearch_library_form&start_date_jscalenda
r%5BifFormat%5D=%25Y-%25m-%25d&start_date_jscalendar%5BshowsTime%5D=fals
e&end_date_jscalendar%5BifFormat%5D=%25Y-%25m-%25d&end_date_jscalendar%5
BshowsTime%5D=false
Margaret Taylor, Activism Support Manager
Amnesty International Aotearoa New Zealand
ph: +64-9-303-4519 mob: +64-21-729 373 fax: +64-9-303 4528
Te Piringa, 68 Grafton Road, Auckland, 1010
P O Box 5300, Wellesley St, Auckland, 1141
http://www.amnesty.org.nz
… and my reply:
Hello Margaret
The link you provided simply took me to a search page for Amnesty International. I wasn’t able to access whatever most of the long link referred to. Could you try to send the link in another way? Or, preferably, simply provide me with references to the research to which you referred.
By the way, I will post our correspondence on NZ and international men’s and fathers’ sites. The world will be watching and many will be interested in
seeing your evidence to support your claim that women are more often the victims of violence than are men. Will Amnesty International be seen to be an
organisation interested in honesty and fairness?
Kind regards
Hans Laven
Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 25th November 2008 @ 9:06 pm
Great work Hans.
Wonderful to see the AI fem being so forcefully challenged.
Keep up the good work.
Comment by Skeptic — Tue 25th November 2008 @ 10:03 pm
Right on the nail mate,
I have the same story, and exactly the same reaction from women who can not believe that a women would be like that.
But after they read the courts papers do they believe the story as fact,but not all women are tared with the same brush, as i have now meet a women who was delt a bad blow by her ex, and did not pursue it thru a court as she did not want her 2 children to suffer.
She did not believe that a women could be so shit!
But after reading my court papers she was in shock as to say may are, but this dont matter to the ird who give these ex,s all they want, so the wheel keeps on turning for all that know that they can completly destroy the other partner thru the courts by lieing and using the ird to their benifit and claiming poor little me.
Comment by Mark Jensen — Mon 9th March 2009 @ 4:39 pm