Whats happening with the proposed changes to Child Support
From the Hearld Online
About three years ago the Government began a review of child support legislation, with all sides of the debate agreeing that the law is unfair, inflexible and causing many families serious harm. Last year a bill emerged, but there seems little enthusiasm to make progress and it is in 49th place on the parliamentary Order Paper as it awaits a first reading before being sent to a select committee for consideration. To be fair, the new law is not due to come into force until 2013, so it is not exactly urgent. But there is some suspicion that the bill is being kept on the back burner because IRD won’t be able to implement it if it does enter the statute books. John Key has already noted that the IRD’s ageing computer system needs a $1 billion upgrade.
Regards
Scrap
You are spot on here Scrap with comments about IRD’s knackered computer system. It is so stuffed that it is unable to record the difference between PAYE earners moving to be self-employed within a two year period, and then making an estimation for the coming year child support based on the self-employed person’s PAYE salaried income from two years ago. This has happened to three of our members in the past two tax assessment years.
IRD says when a person is listed as self-employed it’s computer is unable tell if their previous earnings are based on PAYE or Self-Employed earnings, so it just assesses them on the amount recorded two years – too bad if this was at a higher rate on PAYE. Net result = self-employed liable parents get assessed on PAYE earnings, therefore oranges are the same as apples, apparently.
This means both parties are given incorrect assessments, the custodial parent rumbs her hands with glee (its normally a she, sadly) while the liable parent (normally a he, sadly) cries injustice. IRD then reverses the assessment once the mistake is pointed out and the reactions of the parties are reversed and the net result is an increase in conflict between the parties because the custodial parent thinks (wrongly) they can smell a rat.
If you ask me, Child Support’s systems are responsible for causing a sizeable amount of disharmony amongst separate couples.
Roger McC for Gerrymen
Comment by GerryMen — Wed 21st March 2012 @ 9:05 pm
I recently had words with IRD about the new formula as I wanted details to try and estimate my liability from 2013. Of course no information was forthcoming. Unsurprisingly!!! Interestingly the person I spoke to left me with the strong impression that the 2013 implementation date was not a foregone conclusion, not only because of the difficulties/costs of doing the necessary software changes but because of the impact IRD job cuts would have on the process. Indeed that person and one other said that staff were concerned that IRDs Hamilton office might be closed as a cost saving exercise. I have no way of knowing whether all this is credible, of course. And, of course, there is no need for the Bill to go to Select Cttee: it can be passed under urgency, which this Government had a habit of doing last session!!!! Watch this space……
Comment by Kelvin Dunn — Wed 21st March 2012 @ 9:18 pm
… but did we really have faith that things were actually going to change?
If I were to have accounts of the quality of the IRD child support statement I’ve been getting then I’d be up in court for fraud. But the IRD isa allowed to make mistakes… I don’t quite get why or how, but it does get away with it. And like Roger McC for Gerryman mentions, that causes disharmony amongst the seperate couples.
Can someone give me 1 reason why the IRD should be the department tasked with managing child support?
Oh that’s right, it’s not a support at all is it… it’s a TAX
If I don’t pay, the government doesn’t pay the child support. My ex would get it when I pay and not a day earlier.
If I pay late, the penalty goes to … the government
If my ex goes on DPB, I pay.. the government
Comment by JS — Wed 21st March 2012 @ 9:24 pm
guys I doubt it matters much what tinkering the govt and their agent the IRD do to the child support regime – its primary purpose is to ensure that the tax take is sufficient to meet all known costs and few hidden ones that may or may not be incurred in looking after supposedly inconvenienced children of fathers who have given up the unequal struggle for whatever reason. We all have our reasons for walking away, I am no judge of that but I do agree that relations between separated couples are not helped by the actions of CSA or IRD and in my own experience if I had my last 10 years again I would only do one thing different. – i would move to a country that did not have a tax treaty with NZ and forget NZ my nz children and ex and start again. The pernicious pain of being screwed by CSA and IRD on an annual basis in the name of children that are deliberately made nearly impossible to see or contact and no account is taken of access plus the opportunity of judicial reviews which will always go against the errant father for sure frankly if you value your sanity walk away is my advice. It may hurt but it will hurt a lot less to walk.
Comment by peter mcbride — Sun 25th March 2012 @ 5:20 pm
I have seen and heard the pain described above many times. I have got through this “positive discrimination” by IRD CS, by leading a fairly lean life, which of course has affected the more luxury aspects of being a parent. This of course has impacted a lot on the material things I could give my children and they have judged me accordingly. As well as affecting activities, it also affects their observing men and women’s interactions and their own feelings of identity. I don’t like what it tells young men, about their future selves?
However, I believe that the most important issue is to warn young women and men about the practical realities, of the choices that they face in our country. I suspect the children don’t want to hear, until they have their fingers caught in the mangle, then it is too late.
IRD CS seem to see fathers as only being able to contribute financially to the development of children. This attitude appears ignorant, narrow and impoverished.
I guess they are mainly clerks and accountants, so what could you expect?
Actually, I have a much higher opinion of accountants, than I do of the quality of attitudes and behaviour at IRD CS. By playing such an active role, in driving a fairly large number of men out of NZ, they seem to me to be targeted vandals, of society and of children’s lives in particular.
They appear to be enthusiastic and active in subsidising of statutory rape of underage boys, for child support. In my opinion, this is clearly covered in the Crimes Act. I cannot see how they can justify their actions in this area. It appears to have a similar ethical justification as those resoundingly rejected at the Nuremberg Trials of Nazis – I am just unthinkingly doing my job!
Unfortunately, this does seem to mean that the sins of the parents are visited on their children. I don’t like this. However, it does seem better than all of the other remaining alternatives, at present.
A good example of what sensible people will do, when faced with an unethical NZ Government system, is given in another thread:
http://menz.org.nz/2012/sureal-double-standard/
I would prefer that NZ rethinks it’s social support policies, including Child Support, so that IRD CS can fit properly into our society. Rethink sounds quick and easy, but this is actually a very large task. For the wellbeing of our society and children, it is essential that the Government does do this. We need a $billion upgrade in our social policies, the return in the quality of our society would be far more.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 25th March 2012 @ 5:58 pm
Murray,
The real risk i npushing for change is that if you push any part ofthe Govt organs and it appears on the IRD radar then expect them to push back in any way that they can with spurious tax reviews audits etc. in my view it is simply safer for any man to sell what little he may have managed to keep, move to a position of exile and make a new life.
Never forget add a couple of redundancies as well and no father can ever have any funds left over for a pension so double the reasons for advice to walk
Comment by peter mcbride — Sun 25th March 2012 @ 7:55 pm
Changes to child support are needed so badly. I pay my ex wife $1014 per month for two children based on my gross but taken from my nett. I have my children 39 % of the time equating to a varience in care time between us of 21 %. Given that she is a parent too she should be accountable for 50% of their care costs and so should I. Therefore my child support should be half the 21 % variance equating to 50% each. Working on this sensible formula my child support should 10.5 % of $1014 which equates to $106.47 monthly. Easy formula worked out with a calculator… do you think IRD can see it… no way!
Comment by Mr M — Sun 25th March 2012 @ 8:09 pm
Mr M you seem to think child support is a way of ensuring the children of any split are well supported.
This not the case this is nothing more than a Govt. scheme for fining errant fathers for as long and as much as is fiscally possible.
It wil not matter how much you support your children – and good on you for doing so, but you will still have to pay pay pay.and beware the judical review I had one and frankly it was not worth submiting to it I was not even listened to!
Comment by peter mcbride — Sun 25th March 2012 @ 8:24 pm
Hi Mr M,
A better prposal may be to get yourself over the 39% hump and into a shared care regieme. It can still lead to distortions but under the current system it will increase your ability to support your children when they are in your care by about $600 a month.
[email protected]
Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 26th March 2012 @ 1:00 pm
Mr M
Goodluck bringing up 2 children on a $106.47 monthly or even $212.94.What planet are you on?Are you living in a caravan squatting on someone elses land?Are you growing all your own food and having cold baths?
Get real!
Comment by Free — Wed 28th March 2012 @ 7:43 pm
@Free.
I had to survive on exactly that when I was unemployed. The child support took my benefit money, leaving me with less than $200 per month. It was interesting trying to pay for food, bills, etc….. especially since I had SHARED CARE at the time!!!!
Comment by JS — Wed 28th March 2012 @ 8:59 pm
#11..when your on a benefit you pay yhe minimum..when you have shared care you pay the minimum..when you are on the unemployment benefit you can collect the other parents child support direcrtly to your bank acc.
Comment by ford — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 7:27 am
@Ford 12. Where do you get the idea that being unemployed you pay the minimum? You can have your unemployment benefit reduced to the level of a sickness beneficiary if the maximum child support is deducted, ie 40% of your benefit.
Comment by Down Under — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 7:35 am
having shared care Ive only ever paid the minimum wether ive been on a benefit or not.i have never paid more than that..one must have shared care and one must apply for child support
Comment by ford — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 7:47 am
why do women fight tooth and naol for the kids and rubbish the man as much as they can..because the more shared care you can get with your kids is less income for her
Comment by ford — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 7:50 am
As Shakespeare put it, “Hell knows no fury like a woman scorned” The problem we are faced with is when most females can’t get their own way they lie, manipulate, and spread false innuendo. they are rarely satisfied till not only have they got their own way, they have destroyed the male totally!
Comment by Gwaihir — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 10:32 pm
@12. Not true. I had an assessment come through and even though I made an objection it took them 2 months to sort it out and thus I was paying full whack in the meantime – no, they wouldn’t repay me, no they wouldn’t be flexible. Oh, and yes, the amount I had to pay was the net amount after her child support to me was taken out! It’s a mucked up world we live in guys…
Comment by JS — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 10:48 pm
Hi Ford and others. I know one chap who has shared care but pays over $1300 a month to his ex. When the kids are in his care he pays for everything and when they are in her care he pays her a bot over $650 a week to care for their two sons.
What you say about having shared care being a way to only pay the minimum is bollocks. It is possible to pay $2,000 a month even if you have shared care under the current formula
Comment by Allan Harvey — Thu 29th March 2012 @ 10:50 pm
#17..may not be true for you but its exactly how its worked for me over the last 17 trs
#18.ive always had 3 nights per week with my kids and ive always only paid the minimum.the most ive ever paid is $67? a mth which is the new amount i have to pay
i dont know who or how people deal with your situations but some men ive spoken to over the years are really getting shafted
Comment by ford — Fri 30th March 2012 @ 7:10 am
when you men have your 3 nights per week on paper dont forget to apply for child support..having 3 nights per week allows you to be able to collect as well..having 3 nights per week shared cared and applying for c/s puts an offset in place..you pay her and she pays you..walla .one minimum payment coming up
Comment by ford — Fri 30th March 2012 @ 7:16 am
reply peter mcbride#4
Peter,I have finished reading your post….And I have say this with a heavy sad heart, I have to totally agree on what you have written…
I now abode permanently in Asian country,totally free from the dictatorship of social engineered feminist N.Z…
But what has really blown me out the window is the amount of highly intelligent, well educated, decent western European men in there early twenties to there mid late forties who turn there backs, and have walked away from there ‘misandry’ western European social engineered countries,such as America,Canada, Sweden,Denmark, Britain, Germany,Australia and of course New Zealand ….and have made this Asian country there permanent home.
I would say 90% of these men have married a local Asia lady,started families and have started some very successful businesses…
I have overheard western European women tourists talking about western man with a Asian woman and believe you me, they are not happy about it,in fact some are so damn furious and expressed there thoughts very loudly …. Especially from the obese America and Canada women….I just quietly smile to myself, shake my head and walk away from them
Ironically,I have also notice single Asian men in this country don’t want to socialized with these type of western European women…
May the ‘marriage strike’ against western European feminist women continue and grow even stronger….
Comment by John Dutchie — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 7:03 am
@Ford,
Either you earn very little or else your ex earns a very similar income to you. What you say about shared care meaning you pay the minimum is just incorrect. I don’t think it is reasonable that you repeat your claim here and mislead others. Shared care does allow a paying parent higher living allowance and a lower % in the Child Support formula. That is all it does. Depending on which parent earns more that parent still pays Child Support to the other party using an offset of their liabilities to each other.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 11:55 am
reply to #22
Hmmmmmmm……the so called ‘unbiased’ Child Support formula act is ‘mislead’ing and totally corrupt law on to itself ,when I had to pay child support from my own personal experience was like this…
One week I received a letter from IRD on the $$$$ I had to pay,then the following week I would received another letter from the IRD stating a different amount of $$$$ I had to pay ….This continue for year and half…
When I phone the IRD to try get this mess fixed up…The attitude from the staff was like this ‘Piss off and just pay’…Oh and by the way guess what gender the staff member was…???.. ‘Kiwi woman’…
However when I was a solo Father and I was chasing child support from the children Mother, the attitude from Kiwi women staff members at IRD were extremely supportive towards the children Mother,I wonder why that is in the Republic of social engineered feminist N.Z…
I even had one charming Kiwi women staff chastise and bullying me for the nerve of ‘me’ the Father for asking Child support from the children Mother…..Enough said about the attitude and the mentality of unbiased Kiwi feminist women
John Dutchie ….Free at last
Comment by John Dutchie — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 1:26 pm
I don’t see how your reply was a response to what I said John. What you say about the bias shown by certain CS staff is very true and I often collected data on that and forwarded it to IRD management. Unfortunately their front line is all too ready to assume a male voice is a paying parent and the chaos of their accounting and computer system is widely known. That is the very issue that Scrappy raises in the main post of this thread.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 2:02 pm
#22.works for me.i pay the minimum..i always have and one learns something everyday
Comment by ford — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 2:13 pm
reply to #24
…Allen what I trying say here,is the blatant mindset and the mentality of Kiwi women employed in the government departments towards Manhood and Fatherhood here in NZ, I have also said in another thread how many Kiwi feminists are employed in many of the government departments …
‘Unfortunately their front line is all too ready to assume a male voice is a paying parent’…Your comment is valid,however I know this for a fact, if its a Women voice there ‘front line’ attitude quickly changes,I wonder why that is….Enough said
John Dutchie …Free at last….
Comment by John Dutchie — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 2:22 pm
And my reply to author posted by ‘Scrap_The_CSA’…The government will not alter or change the current laws to the child support act…In my humble opinion,more spin doctoring from the government
And why won’t it be changed?….
Its the ‘[pot of gold’ at the end of rain bow…. Especially with the Currier NZ debt levels and what I have read the debt level will only get much worse in the long term..
The government wants every last cent it can get,and of course it must be done with out upsetting the beloved ‘Kiwi feminists’…..
John Dutchie…Free at last
Comment by John Dutchie — Mon 2nd April 2012 @ 2:34 pm
i earn 850 per week and was paying 1060 per month.after doing the on line calculator and a very helpful case manager telling me to go for admin review i did.
well all my arguments were rejectect-travelling 6 hours week 3 and 4 each month.
i took my payslip along stating income of 52000 per year-you guessed it bam, rejected.well now it has been re assessed to 900 per month with some to pay penalties that i will never pay off.no refund for over paying last year.
and when previously i was underestimated i got a whopping 15000 lump sum when i was paying extra to the two mums i support.
forget admin review chaps,no matter what you are told you will come out second best.
it is illegal to show any one the papers they send after review but i am temped to edit my name and post them on the net.they give you a few ideas how to beat the system you see.
so heres a break down of income and expence 850 wage
250 chid sup
450 rent and rates
50 ph and power
100 left for food, medical for heart issues,petrol
now they deduct from my wages cause i made 2 payments that were short of the ususal
and i read in the herald a woman in south auckland getting 750 on the benifit turning to protitution cause it not enough.not gee, i will get a job.
i don,t qualify for legal aid,insulation in my home – nothing.
thats for listening
Comment by Roy Allan — Sat 14th April 2012 @ 7:18 am
Thanks for talking Roy, too many men don’t, and the shame of what women have done to the country and our society isn’t seen or understood. So you’re not allowed to publish what is yours, your admin review, why the secrecy – women need that cloak of secrecy to conceal their crime.
Comment by Down Under — Sat 14th April 2012 @ 8:35 am
Hi Roy.
You are fully entitled to show any of your papers to whom you choose, except where it is expressively suppressed in court.
What you CANNOT do is identify the child or any other party at all.
If you edit all names out, also edit specific locations and any events / items such as employer etc.
To gauge the level of detail that you can ‘publish’, refer to examples of Family Court rulings on
http://www.justice.govt.nz/courts/family-court/legislation/decisions-1/decisions
Comment by Family Court Judge — Sat 14th April 2012 @ 3:20 pm
thank you for your replies gentlemen, i won,t make public the papers because there may be a few who will use it un apropriatly.
i just cant understand how my wages can be attacked like i,m a criminal. i have had this for 25 years and another 15 to go.great retirement i,m going to have.
should legal aid be helping me even though i earn 50 k a year but left with nothing each week? i spent the weekend home in an isolated area with nothing to eat or anyone to talk to.
just praying my home-the last assett i have sells.
bach cruiser quad bike rifles(target) camper and anything else has been sold
Comment by Roy Allan — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 7:12 am
At 50K, you’re just over the threshold of the same take home pay as someone doing 40 hours on the minimum wage. The harsh reality is you cannot afford home ownership, unless you rent it out and go flatting yourself, but at least that way you’ll be able to eat and talk to other people. Just don’t let it drive you into the ground.
It is new reality for the average New Zealand man; it is not worth investing in assets in New Zealand. This has huge implications for savings and housing and capital loss and population structure and parental relationships and people are s……lowy waking up to that. You’re not alone Roy thousands of men are facing variations of the same theme and now that the outcomes are becoming more obvious any sensible man is abandoning the country before they inevitable face the situation you are talking about.
I was having this conversation with a gentleman in Europe 10 years ago when the world was laughing at us having Helen Clark for a prime minister – and he said to me then, “so you are going to end up with a useless bit of dirt in the south pacific inherited by Maori a few gays and so some sorry women, let them have just come and live next door to me in Europe,” he was Swiss national actually, so it is not like it is any secret, informed people have seen this coming for a long time.
Comment by Down Under — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 8:07 am
Dear Down Under, not thousands, but tens of thousands of men. Spoton! Sell at the highest price, shareout, waste. House price bubble bursts, so who was the winner? MurrayBacon.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 8:59 am
Wow so I’m not alone in getting crazy assessments from IRD! I’ve been earning reasonable money for a while but being taxed at 57% plus whatever extra they decide to take means I’m stuffed for retirement, as many are saying. IRD gets all of my money and I have to pay for the privelege of having the kids – lost wages and travel expenses. I can’t see the point of sweating it out for 5 more years.
No significance in this question but has anyone researched the contribution made by child tax to spousal assault and homicide? Seriously if it is a big contributor, which I suspect it is, then getting the issue in the news might make someone change the CSA/IRD’s mind for them?
Comment by Dan — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 11:25 am
Reply to Dan #34
Your commit ‘but has anyone researched the contribution made by child tax to spousal assault and homicide?’
Yes Dan, I think you have raised a very good point here…I would be very interested too..
Your commit Dan,yes again you have raised a valid issue ‘then getting the issue in the news might make someone change the CSA/IRD’s mind for them?’
Sorry Dan, if I come across so negative and pessimistic, but that won’t happen…
And the reason why the media won’t pick up on this ,and this is just in my humble opinion… Take a look what as been happening in the media for last thirty years…Its been all about the plight of Kiwi women and Kiwi mothers….Men and Fathers don’t matter in Feminist N.Z…
Kind regards John Dutchie…Free at last
Comment by John Dutchie — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 12:29 pm
Reply to Roy #31
Your comment Roy ‘i just cant understand how my wages can be attacked like i,m a criminal.’
I know exactly how you feel Roy…I felt exactly like you for many a years when I use to live in N.Z,and I now abode in Asian country ,that awful gut retching feeling has completely gone.
When I use to live here in N.Z…. I keep asking the same question as you have done Roy ‘why have I been been turned into a criminal is it because I am a Man and a Father, who loves his children..Why do I have be hammered and destroyed by every government department here in N.Z?’
Roy, down below, go and see these two websites called …..
‘Why I loathe feminism … and believe it will ultimately destroy the …
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/…/Why-I-loathe-feminism—believe-ultimately...’
This article was written by an amazing lady called ‘Erin Pizzey’ …Also go to ‘you tube’ and type in ‘Erin Pizzey’ …
All of these sites that I have recommended to you, will explain why western Men and Fathers have been turned into so called ‘criminals’ and we as men and Fathers are only fit to used as sperm donors and ‘ATM machines’ for many a western European countries
Another website to appraise and is ‘Angry Harry’
Kind regards to you Roy…John Dutchie ….Free at last
Comment by John Dutchie — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 1:29 pm
boy am i glad i came to this site. tx down under for your ideas .i bought this darn property with my ex and am now stuck with it not because of price but location, up in the hills of auckland and any offers could be a good one.
i drove to work this morning thinking “hey i have a safety harness and there is the harbour bridge’ i don,t want to be falling but boy that would get some media attention!unfortunatly that is how bad it has become.i have a stent in my heart and the stress this is causing is unbelievable.maybe a trip is what i need-not any partner either.
i had the snip last year and even that got srewed up leaving me out of pocket.
still had to pay child support so sold something else off.
how more is there to come, surely it can only stack so high eh!
thanks so much for letting me vent it all out guys
my sincere regards-roy
Comment by Roy Allan — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 6:21 pm
just to add food for thought, i have three passports, aussie nz and british.
i have electrical qual iqp registered and fully qualified in air conditioning and earn stuff all-my employer has been very good to me in saying all that.
i just can,t leave my kids to grow up with women alone for the next generation.
recently i had no where to take my 3 year old for a nappy change, pull up in a foodstore and had to reverse out of “mothers only carparking” did wonder at the time where we are all going to even park with so called cripples mothers police only taxis and everything else.
my ex still uses her dead mothers cripple card. yeh- the one with a live in partner and two jobs getting 200 bucks off me a week.
Comment by Roy Allan — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 6:35 pm
#38..ive never heard of a mothers only park but if it was me id tell them to fuck off or face a gender discrimination suit
Comment by ford — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 8:25 pm
Protesters hurled tampons at the Employers and Manufacturers’ Association headquarters in Auckland in a passionate march against its boss.
have you thought about tossing condoms at the losers foodstore or perhaps blacking out the sign or removing it ?
Comment by ford — Tue 17th April 2012 @ 8:53 pm
Actually it’s probably a parents with small children park – they are fairly common. If it says “mothers” rather than “parents” then you would be right to complain to the store owners!
Comment by Dan — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 8:22 am
#35 Thanks John, unfortunately I’m aware of the way the media (and public opinion) works and I agree totally with your comment. I should have added suicide as well.
Public opinion as I see it is based on the fact that everyone likes others to agree with them and everyone likes to have the same ideas as the rest, and nobody likes to question these ideas. Smart (or rat cunning) people put in a bit of effort to get attention and create a public perception and they know that because the mob will pick it up and run with it there is very little effort required to maintain the idea, which explains why we are where we are today.
I suspect that even if a man were to set himself on fire in front of the IRD and leave notes detailing his CS struggle the media would ignore his reasons and simply report that he was believed to have mental issues.
Comment by Dan — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 8:37 am
On the Plus, 4 years ago I recall visiting a main centre shopping mall where there was a “Parenting Room – Fathers Welcome” A approached management to commend them and as I was on my own, taken in and shown the room. All appointments for child care were present, but more impressive was the pride management and users of the room showed in the facility. Recently my home town opened a new mall, same attitudes, same welcome! I suspect they are becoming more common.
Comment by Gwaihir — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 8:55 am
Yes, they have moved to equal-opportunity baby changing rooms – but only reluctantly. Notice how many have clear glass doors, so people can keep an eye on untrustworthy predatorial fathers …
Comment by BabyChange — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 10:15 am
The ones I have seen are not clear but pattern frosted. Personally I feel this makes them more discreet, but at the same time welcoming. The move may have been reluctant – but so is any move that costs the mall owners for no return.
Comment by Gwaihir — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 10:24 am
#44..suck people have sick imaginations
Comment by ford — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 12:07 pm
sick ^
Comment by ford — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 12:08 pm
Reply to Dan#42
Kudos to you Dan,again you have raised a very valid issue….Fathers that commit suicide,three of my divorce American work mates and myself talk about this subject in depth a couple of days ago,one of them put me to website,see below
http://www.glennsacks.com/distraught_fathers_courthouse.htm
Apology to Scrap_The_CSA for changing the subject
Kind regards John Dutchie
Comment by John Dutchie — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 1:59 pm
#48. Excellent article.
Comment by golfa — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 3:06 pm
Reply to Dan @#42
your comment Dan of …’I suspect that even if a man were to set himself on fire in front of the IRD and leave notes detailing his CS struggle the media would ignore his reasons and simply report that he was believed to have mental issues.’…
Spot on Dan,and then of course the feminists in the media would use there ‘feminist spin machine’ say….
‘He’ was not fit to be called a Father…’He’ was at fault …’He’ was a
abuser
…
‘He’ had the ‘potential’ to harm the children… ‘She’ the poor Mother is always the blameless innocent victim…
‘She’ the mother must be supported at all costs…
Oh yes, I know so well the manipulation mindset of western European Feminists
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at last from ‘The republic of social engineered Gestapo feminist NZ.’
Comment by John Dutchie — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 4:17 pm
Dear John, your fears of prejudices are probably becoming out of date. Public opinion is slow to swing, but more and more people are sick of young solo mothers easy lifestyles and poor discipline of their children, both pushing lots of cost onto working taxpayers.
In terms of outright abuse, please have a look through child abuse statistics and you will see that young mothers are unfortunately responsible for most of the child abuse and serious neglect. Sure, men do almost all of horrific violent murders, but in the end far and away the most damage to children is done by young, inexperienced mothers, with poor social support systems. Whether a child is smothered quietly to death, or drugged or gassed, it is no more or less dead than a child beaten to death.
http://menz.org.nz/2012/vested-interests-conflict-of-interest/
Serious emotional neglect probably should be considered worse than being murdered, many such children take into their forties, to largely get over their childhood experiences. Sure, there is no spilt blood or broken bones, but the pain and confusion take an extremely long time to recover from and get life back to normal. Injuries done by neglect, in complete silence, are far more cruel than broken bones or bruises or yelling and screaming.
Maybe these young parents have rushed into having a child, without developing a supporting father relationship, maybe they thought they didn’t need it!
I am not wanting to put down young unsupported mothers, more to suggest that we need to understand the degree of damage done by different types of abuse and also to educate all of our children about the responsibilities of raising children well and the sacrifices that are required.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Thu 19th April 2012 @ 4:52 pm
Reply to MurrayBacon #51
Good points you have raised MurryBacon and I will reply to some of the comments that you have said later on
…However one of your comment you have said ‘your fears of prejudices are probably becoming out of date.’
Personally in my humble opinion, I think not Murraybacon,and please if you wouldn’t mind, go this website and read the some the comments that Divorced Men/Fathers have said…Its grim reading…
divorcesupport.about.com/b/2011/12/03/marriage-2-0.htm
Kind regards to you Murraybacon…John Dutchie, Free at last…..
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 7:05 am
Reply to Murraybacon #51
For your appraisal Murray bacon….Here is the typical comments written by a American man in blog called ‘Read more at Suite101: More Single Women than Married Women in US’
Read below what this American Man as written
‘Guest :
Its difficult, if not impossible, for me to care about the plight of the American female. Did any of them give a flying rats rump when men were getting raked over the coals for 40 years by the flag-waving man-haters? Nope! So with a 50% divorce rate, with 70% of them initiated by the female, American men have simply walked off the field of “The Battle of The Sexes”. Like the old joke goes, what if they held a war and nobody showed up? Bah, in the end who cares? I have better things to do, like take my hot young foreign wife up to the lake for some much needed relaxation time. You American females get ready for work and planning your retirement in 50 years, if there will be one for you. Oh, and get used to being single. Because you are after all independent and you dont need no man! LOL!’
I do not take pleasure in saying this Murraybacon …But there is massive backlash starting to happen in western European society against western European women…
And note what the Male american author as said ‘like take my hot young foreign wife up to the lake for some much needed relaxation time’
Kind regards to you Murraybacon”¦John Dutchie, Free at last”¦..
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 9:41 am
Reply to MurrayBacon#51
Your comment MurryBacon on ‘Public opinion is slow to swing’…Yes I do concur with you there …
But there is swing starting to happen,but… very…very slowly in some parts of western European society,please see link below
\http://amos2008.wordpress.com/
Again I do again concur with you on your comment ‘I am not wanting to put down young unsupported mothers’…Believe or not, likewise too…
Where I now abode in a Asian Country there is a support group,which I have now joined for unsupported Asian mothers, established by some awesome western European divorced Men/Fathers who now permanently abode here,like myself ….
And it getting stronger each passing week, now some local Asian business owners are starting to financially support us,they can recognized the long term benefit for there community…
My issues are,is what been happening in western European society for the last forty years where ‘Manhood’ and ‘Fatherhood’ have been Demonized to Hell and Back by Feminism …
And I refuse have anything more to do with there Feminist crap where ‘I’, as Man and a Father have to punished for a so called crime of the century… Because of my gender….
I will never submit or be subservient to feminism, or bow down to a Gestapo western European Feminist
Kind regards John Dutchie….. Free at last
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 1:54 pm
Reply to Murraybacon#51
interesting article on where have the smart men gone,and here some of the comments that K
http://www.stuff.co.nz
phen #14 02:13 pm Oct 24 2011
A feminized education system which no longer works for men. A 50% divorce rate, first time round. Higher percentage for second marriages. Thousands of men unilaterally kicked to the curb through ‘no fault’ divorce laws. Untold amounts of misery for decent fathers alienated from their kids by a femily caught system, then asset stripped paying ‘child support’ for up to 18 years. The most spoilt arrogant generation of women to walk the planet who have little or no understanding or interest in men’s issues. Get together with a woman in NZ and settle into a relationship? Yeah right.
Daniel #29 03:25 pm Oct 24 2011
I agree with DanM#1 but there is possibly some other reasons for this particular man drought – the males that fit the above criteria have enough money and opportunity to look outside NZ for mates. Educated kiwi males can often make better money overseas and therefore many are already removed from the local market. It is also worth noting that once overseas it is far easier to find funny attractive passionate women that look after themselves and their men better. Most of my friends fit the ‘educated kiwi male’ tag and have foreign girlfriends/wives and would agree that in trying to meet a partner in NZ most Kiwi women expect to be pandered to by the male, its the other way round virtually everywhere else worldwide so why should they bother back here in NZ. Now while it sounds like I have an axe to grind the truth is I managed to find a beautiful educated KIWI girl with a good sense of humour, so yes I do consider myself one of the lucky ones. The truth is you can break it down to simple economics – The problem is the local market is not to produce enough quality goods and educated well paid kiwi blokes are able to move closer to superior alternative sources or import. I also understand that these views may offend some kiwi women and viewed as non-politically correct but right or wrong… the truth is that many kiwi guys do indeed feel this way.
The truth hurts #77 06:43 pm Oct 24 2011
I am a 30 year old male, I have lived in NZ for most of my life, I don’t think I am unattractive, however I wouldn’t say I was CLEO magazine material (although if they airbrushed me and used Photoshop I’d fit right in…), I have both a trade AND an engineering qualification. However the “school of life” and my attitude, respect and enthusiasm has got me further than any qualification can account for.
After spending most of my life in NZ, I decided to go traveling (Europe and then Asia). I can honestly say that I have seen the light. I had such an amazing uplifting experience. The women didn’t scoff down packets of chocolate biscuits, drink copious amounts of alcohol then pig out at the local fast food joint whilst slagging off their boyfriends, no, they looked after themselves, showed serious respect and just had a fantastic vibe radiating out from them.
I’ve been back in NZ for about a year now, have a great job, great income but I am packing up and heading out of NZ within the next 4 months. Possibly the single most important decision in life is who we spend our existence with, choose carefully. I will be, but not in NZ.
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 3:13 pm
Whoops hit the wrong …
interesting article on where have the smart men gone,and here some of the comments that Kiwi men have said…You don’t have to genius to work out what they are saying…
And do I agree on what they have said ..Sadly Yes I do
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at last……
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 3:16 pm
whoops…. once again…. wrong link,my apology …..
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/…/Where-have-all-the-smart-men-gone
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 4:11 pm
Hi John (#57); I think the link you were looking for is here;
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/5841416/Where-have-all-the-smart-men-gone
Trust you are enjoying the tropics; will be there with you very soon.
Comment by Bruce S — Fri 20th April 2012 @ 7:50 pm
Reply to Bruce S
…Many thanks Bruce for the correct link …
And Bruce its more then enjoying the tropics…Its more like enjoying pure ‘Freedom’, where I don’t have to keep apologizing to western European women, that I was born as a Man and I became a Father which is the worst possible ‘sin’ as ‘you’ as a Man could ever make in the eyes of them Feminists.
And how can I justify this statement I have just made?…See below, a feminist quote ,this quote was made by a famous America feminist that our beloved Kiwi feminists love to adore and worship…
This type of vile and evil propaganda is taught and preach at the so called ‘women’s studies’ at N.Z universities
‘You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs.”
Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)’
‘Tongue in cheek’….Don’t you just love the western European feminists definition of ‘Equality’…
Kind regards John Dutchie…. Free at last from a Feminists state
Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 3:34 am
all interesting to read but i,m not about to leave my 3 boys to grow up feminine and without a dad.
i am still trying to find out what rights i have legally to stop my pay packet being attacked and we all know how organised child sup are,nt. their rediculous amounts change all the time so bugeting will be useless.
well when this house bloody sells i,m thinking of the camper style of living to give my sanity some reprieve and sleep better at night.
i know guys off work on acc for mental stress living a better life than me!
ird are now hassling my employer for my bank details theirs and what i earn ect.
i flaming went through all of it at admin review last november and nothing has changed.its just mind wanking how many times i,m and dragged through the coals.
any one know of simpathetic lawyers ? i may have mentioned before but i have been paying child sup for 25 years now and have another 15 years to go.yes 40 years of this bull s%$t and i will still be paying the arrears on my death bed
well at least the sun is shining
roy
Comment by Roy Allan — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 7:52 am
Read it and weap, women!
This is what you’ve all created. This is what you wanted.
Now enjoy.
I’m getting wealthier, and staying single.
Comment by BrightWealthySingleMan — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 8:00 am
Reply to BrightWealthySingleMan#61
L.O.L..And I thought I was blunt and forthright in expressing my opinions..
However BrightWealthySingleMan there are some points I would like raise with you…So please bare with me
I now permanently abode and work in a Asian country and I have a fantastic and a wonderful relationship with a beautiful (both as in inside and outside)highly intelligent Asian lady doctor..She is a real women that I would sacrifice my life for..We work together as a ‘team’, that’s how a relationship should be, in my humble opinion
There are still some great,sincere and wonderful women that still abode on this fine planet,and equally important,these fine women still have that wonderful ‘strong’ femininity quality in them…
But not in western European society, that now has been destroyed, western European women have now turn into this narcissistic fruit loops, with there attitude of…
Its only about ..’me’…’me’…’me’… Sense of ‘entitlement’ mentality…
So if you wouldn’t mind, I would like to rephrase your comments to this
‘Read it and weep,western European women!’
This is what you’ve all created. This is what you wanted?
Now enjoy.
Well then,come on then Kiwi women I know you read and appraise this website…Debate with me if you dare too…!!!!!
Or are you going to run to the… ‘The ministry of Gestapo women’s affairs’…. and proclaim you are a ‘Victim’ and hear your usual spin doctoring of the typical ‘Male chauvinistic, sexist oppression’ syndrome comments …Am I correct…???
Yes, I can still remember what you lovely fair minded butch Kiwi gestapo feminist women did to ‘Peter Ellis’ ….Wasn’t that a lovely Kiwi women feminist witch hunt…??????
Kind regards to you Kiwi women…John Dutchie Free at last from this Feminist Hell Hole called New Zealand, that you the ‘fair minded’ Kiwi women have created…..
Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 10:23 am
What a lot of the men writing in about the crap women in NZ dont get is that many of Kiwi women have similar problems with the Kiwi blokes.Many are sodden alcoholics,lazy and would rather go to a brothel than put some effort in at home.Yes there are some wonderful men/fathers too.
Comment by Free — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 4:50 pm
Reply to Free
My reply to some your comment Free
#1’Many are sodden alcoholics’…And that applies to Kiwi women as well Free…
#2 ‘would rather go to a brothel’…..
And you mean to tell me that Kiwi women are sweet innocent angles in that department and don’t play round on there husbands/partners …
Yeah right..!!!! I see another Tui bill board on that one,see the links below and have a read and then weep, those articles will open your eyes on Kiwi women
http://lifestyle.msn.co.nz/nzmenslifestyle/womenandsex/1026540/kiwi-girls-most-promiscuous-women-in-the-world
http://www.expatexposed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33162..’KIWI WOMEN AMONGST THE UGLIEST IN THE WORLD’
http://www.tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2008/06/expats-backlash-against-kiwi-women.html….And this a comment posted on this link above
‘At 23/6/08 3:05 PM, mawm said…
Kiwi women have made an art of subltle and not so subtle ridicule of men, they have no dress sense, they do not know how/want to groom themselves and think it is OK to be fat.
Men are blamed for every mishap in their, or their kids lives, unfairly prosecuted and demonised – it is no wonder that men have gone fishing instead of nesting.
AND then there are the delightful, neat, clean, sweet-smelling, well-groomed, smiling, friendly, slender, feminine Asian women……. the choice is not hard to make.’
And I have agree with every damn word that this author as written…Hence I have left this feminist ‘hell hole’ and now work and live in a Asian country…And yes Free,I do have a wonderful Asian partner whom I would sacrifice my life for…
Would I would sacrifice my life for Kiwi women???? After what my ex brother law,my two best kiwi mates and, I myself experienced with Kiwi women,and there vile and evil ‘feminist’ Kiwi family court system …No way …I am deadly serious on what I am going to say here Free…I would let you die,that how I feel towards Kiwi women.. Utter contempt !!!!!!
Yes there are some wonderful men/fathers too…..Yes there,and a lot of them with half a brain are leaving this Feminist cesspit that you, as a Kiwi women help to create….
With the last forty years of this Kiwi women Gestapo feminists crap of your very successful demonetization of Manhood and Fatherhood …Do you honestly still expect decent and honorable Kiwi Men/Husbands/Partners to cherish,love, and honor ‘you’ as a Kiwi women…????…Yeah right..Again, I see another Tui bill board advert popping up…!!!!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/5754668/Men-outnumbered-but-still-picky
below is a comment posted relating to the above link
‘James #163 02:48 pm Oct 11 2011
I am in the first drama-free, truly loving relationship of my life where I feel truly loved, respected and cherished. My previous relationships have been with kiwi women. This one is with a woman from Malaysia. I didn’t go out looking for an Asian woman … she chose and chased me. Since I have been with her, I now understand why Asian women are suddenly so popular. I feel that she loves me for who I am, not the external things I can do for her. I treat her like a princess because she really deserves it and she doesn’t demand it. The Kiwi women I have been with just been users and takers.’
I don’t have say anymore I do Free…You as a Kiwi women have truly reaped on what you have sowed from all of your Feminist social engineering crap !!!
Kind regards to you Free…John Dutchie Free at long last from this Feminist cesspit called New Zealand
Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 7:08 pm
Reply to Free
Oh,and by the way Free,I forgot to add this in my previous post …Please feel free to show my post to the rest of your beloved Kiwi women friends….You can even copy my post and send down to your beloved Kiwi Feminist organization called ‘The Ministry of women’s affairs’ of N.Z
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at last…
Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 7:45 pm
#63..after what i experienced id rather put the effort into a hooker
Comment by ford — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 8:11 pm
Reply to Ford #66
Damn it Ford…Your ‘one liners’ do pack one hell of a punch…L.O.L
Kind regards to you Ford…John Dutchie Free at last…
Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 21st April 2012 @ 8:25 pm
Reply to Roy Allan#60
Roy,your comment of.. ‘i,m not about to leave my 3 boys to grow up feminine and without a dad.’
I understand perfectly what you mean by what you have said Roy,and I respect and truly admire your feelings here,so my Kudos to you Roy.
But do remember Roy you as the Father will be always viewed by the feminist controlled government departments in N.Z, as the… ‘Enemy’…’The Abuser’…’The Villain’ ….Thus you must be, as a Man, and as a Father be punished at all costs in the ‘Gestapo’ feminist state called N.Z
I never deserted my Daughter and Son in this anti Man,anti Father feminist state of N.Z…But circumstances have charged for me,and it will for you Roy, in the future…So stay strong, good sir,and never ever apologize that ‘you’ as a ‘Father’ unconditional love your three sons…Let them Kiwi women feminists rot in hell…..
My Daughter has departed the social engineered Gestapo Feminist N.Z,and is now doing a masters degree in a ‘male’ friendly European country,my Son has finished his chosen degree in a medical field and with his lovely Malaysian wife are now living and working in Malaysia and both doing both very well in there chosen career paths…Hence I could leave Feminist N.Z and I have done so
My love is unconditionally to my Daughter and Son and I will be always there for them till the say I die…Much to the disgust of you Kiwi feminists women ‘Gestapo’ beasts..Am I correct Kiwi women????
Hence that is why I can now abode and work in an Asian country where I have found inner peace at long last,also this Asian country hasn’t been corrupted by feminism with there agenda of demonizing ‘Manhood’ and ‘Father hood’ like Feminist N.Z as successfully done…
I bet you Kiwi women would love to come to this Asian country and start your vile and evil social engineering Gestapo feminism agenda…Am I Correct Kiwi women???…And also to the Kiwi women Gestapo feminists employed at ‘The Ministry of Women’s affairs’…
Go ahead then, come if you want…But be warned, you will won’t be welcome at all by the locals Asian community..They are not stupid …Far from it in fact..They know exactly whats going on in western European society…
Again Kiwi Gestapo women,you have truly reaped on what you have sowed…Well done
Kind regards John Dutchie…l. Free at long last…
Comment by John Dutchie — Sun 22nd April 2012 @ 9:57 am
Reply to Roy #60
Roy go to this website, and have a read….It will open your eyes on whats been happening in western European society
http://www.wnd.com/2006/10/38249/
The war on fathers
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at last
Comment by John Dutchie — Sun 22nd April 2012 @ 11:21 am
thank you dutchie for your words and thoughts,when you say it will get better i,m not so sure.
i am in the system and the way large depts are imposed when they re assess your payments over two year spans i,d need to win lotto annually lol.
as i mentioned once before i am up to 20 k in arrears at the stroke of ird,s pen and as im paying so much monthly to child sup i,ll never be rid of the dept till my dieing days.
found out recently i have to pay till the children are 19 wtf ?
i have been budgeting furuosly lately more so than before as my payments will be deducted from my pay so i can,t afford to get sick cause i think 15 weeks off work is the time before they decide to look at the payment plan.
i look at the 3 pairs of shoes i own and tired clothing i have and wonder how the system can be fair.
i wonder if my mate bruce at child sup reads my posts lol
thanks again dutchie, you do make me feel better talking about it
Comment by Roy Allan — Fri 4th May 2012 @ 7:01 am
Does IRD child support division (3rd armoured core of the feminazi empire) have any “service levels” they need to adhere to? I put in for the change in custody over 2 months ago and after many calls they STILL haven’t even gotten round to actioning it!
Probably because there’s factual information attached to it and possibly even because I’m a dad……
Comment by JS — Fri 4th May 2012 @ 11:12 pm
JS talk to Allan Harvey and read the Act.
Regards
Scrap
Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Sat 5th May 2012 @ 4:47 pm
#71..im positive females are responsible for actioning your new custody details so as your the father(male) there is absolutely no surprize in the delay
Comment by ford — Sat 5th May 2012 @ 5:23 pm
What’s happening with proposed changes in (so-called) child support? Dunnenothing, that’s what. During election year Revenue Minister Peter Dunne engaged in a review of (so-called) child support that identified considerable injustice, promising he would change the system to make it fairer. However, when it came to negotiating with the incoming National government for his patronage, Dunne chose not to put (so-called) child support on his list of demands although he could easily have done so. Since gaining a further term as revenue minister he has ignored ongoing unfairness in (so-called) child support. This suggested his review and promises were nothing more than electioneering. As in past elections Dunne feigned acknowledgement of men’s issues in order to attract their votes (and let’s face it, no other party shows the slightest interest in men’s issues so it is a ripe demographic) but when elected he consistently maintained total disregard for men. Instead, he brought about legislation to hammer men more through arrests at borders, direct plundering of their salaries and bank accounts and so forth. Next election year we can expect Dunne again to pay lip service to men’s concerns in order again to attract their vote under false pretences.
So, what’s happening with (so-called) child support? This kind of thing, men being driven to suicide through heavy handed government enslavement of men in the service of women.
By the way, Dunne has indicated that he is quite prepared to support the Key government’s deal with Sky Casino, selling off legislation and the welfare of our population in return for funding. Dunne will engage in some pathetic creative logic to justify his position as he did when he previously brought about law change to expand internet gambling in NZ. His support for Sky Casino’s bid to addict and exploit many more people, depriving their families and depriving children of families that break up as a result of gambling addiction, shows the true depth of his concern for families. But I guess we knew that already given his willingness to allow his ‘Families Commission’ to become simply another feminist propaganda machine that studiously avoided doing anything that might actually support family cohesion, much less support men.
Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 6th May 2012 @ 10:36 am
ird fuxken assholes..shit makes me fucken angry..being an unemployed bum on the dole with no money isnt such a bad way to live..also my CS is never in arrears..a year or so ago i wouldnt jump whn the bitch at ird told me to and a week later i got a bill for $1500 which i got the local politician to look into it..ird scabs
Comment by ford — Sun 6th May 2012 @ 11:53 am
Reply to Ford#75
Yes Ford..Likewise too…my blood is boiling …I can remember to well my wonderful dealings with them Gestapo Kiwi women feminist beasts in that Feminists controlled I.R.D department…
‘ird fuxken assholes’ Its worse that Ford you actually paying them a sincere compliment for saying that….Its more of a blatant Kiwi women Gestapo feminists Nazi style controlled extermination camp…
Happy now Kiwi women…?????….May you all rot in hell…..
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at long last…..
Comment by John Dutchie — Sun 6th May 2012 @ 12:09 pm
#76..how many women in the world literally get away with murder..in the name of their children
Comment by ford — Sun 6th May 2012 @ 12:44 pm
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10803802
Precisely. Sunday Herald today! Well documented this one!
Comment by Gwaihir — Sun 6th May 2012 @ 1:43 pm
more mail falling out of the letter box today all crap but oh my arrears have jumped now from 28k to 49 k in a month-no bloody wonder dads are topping themselves as in the 38 yo in aussie .i had a thought about all us guys getting on the harbour bridge with a rope in protest to the dept for a bit of media support.
any thoughts cause it really is all rediculous
Comment by Roy Allan — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 3:33 pm
The saddest part about men “Topping themselves” is the statistics seemingly get buried. A car driven at high speed into a bridge abutment or a power pole sad accident, maybe a vehicle defect. A man cries out for help – Ignored! Samaritans simply nod wisely and do nothing, beyond keeping a log of the number of calls seemingly no record is kept. IRD couldn’t care less! who really looses, the children No father to hold them, If he is allowed to!
Comment by Gwaihir — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 3:46 pm
#79..the media will write you up as a mentally disturbed man who is a risk to his kids
Comment by Ford — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 3:48 pm
#80..dont forget IRD are losers too..they lose revenue
Comment by Ford — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 3:49 pm
The IRD lose; where did you get that idea? No, if they didn’t get it from him alive, they might get it from his estate once he is dead, but at least he won’t accumulate debt, that’s just embarrassing. And someone else will take his job another paying account and at the end of the day he was just another stroke on their chalk board. They lost no more than their eligibility for heaven.
Comment by Down Under — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 5:30 pm
the IRD losing..i was being facetious
Comment by Ford — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 5:38 pm
Reply to Down Under#83
Hmmmmmmm….I would like to rephrase to this Down Under
‘He the ‘sucker’ as in the hapless Father was just another sucker that they, the Kiwi women feminist slowly painfully,and done with pure glee in there eyes …bleed to death and posted it on their beloved feminist chalk board.’
‘This Kiwi women Man/Father hating Feminist Gestapo controlled IRD Government lost no more than their eligibility for their definition of Feminist heaven.
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at long last”¦..
Comment by John Dutchie — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 6:24 pm
But who says those people are all hapless men; why shouldn’t they rebel? They have lost their children, so why shouldn’t they attack the state, why shouldn’t they turn criminal, why shouldn’t they go corrupt, if the state is the enemy why shouldn’t they challenge the beast. Does the IRD lose or does society lose?
Comment by Down Under — Thu 17th May 2012 @ 11:48 pm
Reply to Down Under
‘But who says those people are all hapless men’…I will try clarify my definition of Hapless Men…
Actually I should said have this ‘hapless separated and alienated Fathers’ A lot of young Men(note the word I have said) ‘used’ be very naive on how a western European feminist state can destroy them at a moments notice of justified by the feminists spin machine …’To protect the child/Children’…And I was one of those naive stupid young man
And when I got crucified by the N.Z feminist system, I at the beginning felt totally overwhelm, villain fry,belittled, criminalized,my self worth as a Man as a loving Father was destroyed…. Just because I unconditional loved my children and that I still wanted to be involved with my Children lives …That was my so called crime against the feminist state of N.Z….
‘so why shouldn’t they attack the state,’ …I agree with you…And I did and I also paid a very heavy price for attacking the ‘Gestapo Feminist state of N.Z’…
‘if the state is the enemy why shouldn’t they challenge the beast.’…No argument from me on that one….. Again,I did challenge and fought tooth and nail ‘the Feminist state which is my sworn enemy till the day I die.’…That is my view of Feminist N.Z
And I will continue the fight against feminist state of N.Z where I now abode in a Asian country ….
Does the IRD lose or does society lose?….’Destroy the family unit you destroy the fabric that hold a decent society together’ …And Feminists are well aware of this….
Kind regards John Dutchie Free at long last”¦..
Comment by John Dutchie — Fri 18th May 2012 @ 7:55 am
Hi all,
From reading this blog it is very apparent who are getting a raw deal from IRD, and those that receive the money from them, A person like myself who currently gets 143 nights of the year (3 days short of the requirement)is treated by IRD as though that number is 0. I used to get more but as I filed for shared custody 17 months ago, I am no longer allowed to see my daughter outside of our original parental order. You guessed it she then put in an application to IRD. Which of course they accepted without contacting me, except with the first months bill. After many phone calls and paperwork, dead end the result was …she is a female.
Note I also have a son who lives with me fulltime in the last 9 years I have received about $500 all up?????
What I see from the receivers of the money is that they don’t believe that it costs money to have the children for those 143 days, my daughter has her own room, bed, clothes food all paid for by me, and yet IRD say I am 3 days below so all that money you need for your daughter in your home goes to her mother….who by the way earns a six figure salary herself not including what I have to pay her.
I had a job at the time where I started at 0500hrs which at the time it was best she was with her mother, I since changed careers within 6 months bought a house close to the mother but in a better schooling zone, then asked for more time…you can guess the rest.
I am unable to reason any of this, I am happy to get criticizm from both sides…
Devoted father.
Comment by Gaz — Wed 13th June 2012 @ 8:48 pm
#88..its no accident you havent got the extra 3 days..thats would have been a very aware decision made by your x and her lawyers ensuring she gets full financial advantage
Comment by Ford — Wed 13th June 2012 @ 9:15 pm
respectfully to you all, In my case, it is not how much I pay , it is the brutal way the IRD take it, giving me no chance to earn more without severe penalties. I came upon this site quite by chance, and I could share with you a life story very similar to those I have just read. The injustices that I have experienced at the hands of the IRD, has cost the life of my closest friend to suicide, She was 21 years old. I could no longer support myself let alone anyone else at that time some years ago. I have slowly lost many things over the years including the ability to see my children. My debt is now huge. All the time trying via the IRD review process to put it right. Did not achieve anything in the end. The IRD told me I was entitled to a great many things once , examples of which are , relief for health care , travel to see my children who live other end of country, relief for duty of care to my current wife etc etc. All are false statements as are a great many other things. Like so many here I could go on and on, including my own suicide which was intercepted again quite by chance by a police tip off etc. I can say that once you have been through this thought process, it never leaves you. It is always just a breath away no matter what the councellors believe or tell you. My family is definitely better off with me gone, no more penalties, no more debt, no more pain, no more threats, and the government will pic up the tab for my wifes health bill which is now extremely high, and I am not able to maintain her treatment any more which could end her life too. She cant work and is in constant pain , sometimes agony, I can do nothing ! So to anyone who thinks it is a selfish act. YOU KNOW NOTHING ! It is in fact a selfless act, and the ultimate love someone can give; is to give his or her life so that another may live . I never used to be this way, but I have been driven here. After years of infinit sadness and going over and over how these injustices could not possibly be real. – including a review against me for overpayments I made 2 years in a row as I over estimated income to avoid penalties ; – I received back as a credit the overpayments; then had to pay again in full within a short period just over a month as my ex recieved it in “good faith”. So beware you are not safe either way. I see a glimmer of hope with this bill before parliment, but I am under no illusions either.
My submission to anyone in office reading this is :
If you were able to add up the number of deaths caused by this child support lie ; it would be defined as a “mass grave” – this does not include the misery , the emotional cost, the social cost, the loss of productive intelligent individuals who choose to keep their output to a minimum due tax plus ACC plus child support based on gross, equals not worth it ! and those that simply leave the country permanently.
You know it is true, and a mass grave is a “crime against humanity” according to the United Nations to which we are a signatory. Simply saying it is the rule or the law or a guideline is a cop out, which did not absolve those at Nuremburg , and nor does it absolve you. Its international case law.
I want to be a part of my childrens lives, I love them; I have the right to love them ; it is my right as their father and a law abiding human being to live and love my children. I have done no wrong , and I have paid. I dont want to wait until they are 19 so I can see them.
Stop killing us .
Comment by Marc — Thu 21st June 2012 @ 8:38 pm
Hi. Im new here. I got a huge huge bill from IRD in NZ yesterday. havent heard from them for 6 years then wham!! I have nothing so cant pay it. Im single so am thinking of moving to a country where they cant ruin me and make my life unbearable. Anyone know where the best country to go to to find a nice asian bride and work without feeling like im a hunted man and wanting to end it all.
Comment by Clobbered — Thu 21st June 2012 @ 8:57 pm
Welcome to the club Clobbered.
First if you are going to get out of NZ do it quickly, they can block you at the border 🙁
Have a read of post #21. There is someone who achieved what you propose. Before you head off remember if you return, even for a few days, you don’t get back out 🙁
Do you have any contact with your children?
Have a look at the act and see what you are up against http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1991/0142/latest/DLM253151.html
Comment by Gwaihir — Fri 22nd June 2012 @ 10:46 am
Hi Gwaihir. Thank you for your advice. I guess IRD read this and maybe try and fit info to people on their books. Would you say thats the case?
Im overseas now. I have 5 children and 6 grandkidz in NZ. Thats the hard part.i wont be able to go back and see them. My big bill is for child support. I was paying but not enough. Ive been paying my ex by private agreement for a while now. So now i have to pay her and this huge debt which will no doubt skyrocket with interest etc.
Im guessing the next step is that CSA will step in and commandeer my income in which case i would quit my job.
I have no assets, no money in the bank and live week to week. I will never be able to pay this bill. I will write to them and try and come to some agreement for reasonable payment. I hope they see that crucifying me will benefit no-one. Cheers.
Comment by Clobbered — Fri 22nd June 2012 @ 8:53 pm
This is an open group. Yes you are correct all sorts trawling for information. Could I suggest you head for Pauls News http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pauls-news/ (Note all the dots etc) You have to join but it is secure – Well for the web secure!
Sorry, You can never return to NZ, not if you want to leave again!
Comment by Gwaihir — Sat 23rd June 2012 @ 4:01 am
Thank you for your help. Im a bit shellshocked still by this. I will try and work with IRD to begin with.
Do you know of any organisation/lawyers etc that work with IRD on your behalf to establish a reasonable payment plan with them. Is that a good option? What do you think is the best way to proceed from here. Any advice appreciated.
Thanks for the link. I’ll follow it up. Cheers
Comment by Clobbered — Sat 23rd June 2012 @ 6:12 am
You could approach Union of Fathers (Link on this site) I believe they will write off penalties provided you keep an agreed effort to pay off the outstanding balance.
Comment by Gwaihir — Sat 23rd June 2012 @ 9:38 am
I wonder if anybody except for us disgruntled dads read these posts?
I refuse to pay child support. I have 50/50 shared care and expenses of my child. Love him to bits. If I thought for a second that his mother was unable to look after him with her wage, then I would pay more for his schooling etc.
Instead, I have been putting the money away in a separate bank account awaiting any intelligent politician to do something about this farce called ‘Child support’ or alternatively me going to the clink.
The Interest will start to cover the penalties soon.
The current system is bizarre. It makes no sense and I will not tolerate it.
What incentive does the mother have to better herself or strive to earn more, when her cutt is dependent on the fathers income?
Ridiculous.
This is not a communist country.
Comment by Eurybates — Tue 17th July 2012 @ 8:02 pm
Hi gents ,
Does anybody know about having assets in the children’s names to reduce child support payments to the mother? I have had 4 admin reviews this year she is just constantly trying to boost her lifestyle not the childrens
Comment by Cantydad — Sat 25th August 2012 @ 3:32 pm
Child Support is a tax.
You want suggestions for tax avoidance?
Sounds illegal to me and therfore not a discussion for here.
Besides Child Support is assessed on income rather than assetts.
Comment by allan harvey — Sat 25th August 2012 @ 3:41 pm
@ Allan. Child support is a poll tax, levied on a child and demanded off another person. The fact that is a father is irrelevant. The fact that you call that legal is ignorance and gutless.
Comment by Down Under — Sat 25th August 2012 @ 8:25 pm
Allan,
Agree avoidance is not the way to go. Assetts could be income generating, in which case the income would be liable.
Wait till Dunne’s tinkering takes effect.
regards
Scrap
Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Sat 25th August 2012 @ 8:28 pm
Dunne’s tinkering – the man wouldn’t know his arse from his elbow – he is just collecting his pay while the revenue boffins make up the next scheme.
Comment by Down Under — Sun 26th August 2012 @ 12:46 am
Here is one for you Team. My ex had me reviewed because my new assessed level of support was based on the previous year during which I was unable to work for a good part of it due to back surgery. So it was a pitance. Fair enough. So I provided all the necessary info too the review board including 1. details of how my new wife was ill and had endured two surgeries this year with another to come (serious medical expenses and no contribution to household income) 2. Details of my outgoings showing expenses greater than household income including my wifes child support for her Son. 3. The fact that I had continued to pay my full amount the previous year despite being off work. Basically, I fully co-operated with them. When I got my new assessment I nearly fell over! They nailed me with around 300 pm more than I could afford. I explained that I was in a negative cash flow situation but they said its not our problem and that I should mortgage our operty to meet the payments and stop paying my stepsons child support as my kids were more important. I thought it was based on income not equity!!! Maybe I should have told them about the new house my ex (she is still single) is building on acreage at the moment
Comment by Richard — Fri 31st August 2012 @ 9:47 pm
Hi Richard. Welcome to the sinking sand quagmire club. You’ll soon be over your head with jackshit chance of surfacing again.
Your main mistake was not getting your liability re-assessed last lear. Or maybe you tried. Anyway, you’ve probably worked that out.
IRD are right. As much as you love your new wife, don’t pay her liability of child support. Unfortunately, you will still be somjewhat jointly liable for her debts.
Did I read somewhere that there is a limit on frequency of applying for reviews, something like 6 weekly?
If so, you pay what you’re assessed for the next 6 weeks (find a way, there’s no point accruing the extortionist penalties) , then immediately file an on line assessment, based on the fact your actual income is >15% less than the current assessment. Or do it sooner if you can. Make it very clear you are asking to have the review back-dated. Include last year. Don’t accept no for an answer (ie that you cant review last year) – the courts certainly can! Decline the same review officer as last time. search this site, there are some named review officers to avoid.
Don’t provide any facts or figures in advance. As much as they pressure you. Just arm yourself and take your info in with you to the review meeting. Apart from the following suggested summary, only take your ird tax and cs summaries, and any other figures otherwise available on ird site, e.g. gst returns.
Enter the review with some stark figures: have some simple figures, being your actual income, and actual child support paid, expressed as percentages. Something like
“in 2008, I earned $44,444. The CS formulae required me to pay $3,333. In fact, I paid $4,444, which is 22% of my income, instead of the stipulated 18% (above the living allowance. That is an overpayment of $1,111.”
“In 2009 …”
“Over the last 6 years, that is a combined overpayment of $22,222. ”
These figures should tie up perfectly with the tax summaries etc.
Use phrases such as “repugnant to natural justice”, and “not in keeping with the intent of the law”
Take a printed copy of cs guides from ird. And a copy of the legislation (unfortunately, it can be expensive. You can download and print, but that can be labourious.). sprinkle a few yellow sticckies through it, to show you’ve referenced it. But DO NOT quote or open it at the review. You’ll be out of your depth, and Ms leckie is a lawyer. Towards the end, make casual reference that the next step is to file for a family court review.
It won’t rattle the review officer; but might help keep her honest, so that her decision is entirely based on fact.
But be warned, the ird leckie might simply decide you can afford to keep overpaying. Or she might think you’re a smartass. Or she might just be having a “I-hate-men-day”
Good luck and best wishes,
Comment by Money For Nothing — Sat 1st September 2012 @ 8:21 am
#99. Alan….
Tax avoidance is not illegal. Tax evasion is.
I would gladly avoid child tax because it is an unfair tax. A bit like the UK poll tax was. What happened there? A lot of people got hurt in the ensuring demonstration that turned into a riot as tempers rose.
You can not for 1 minute justify the validity of a system where you could be paying child tax to the government and the govenment pays only some of it to your children.
You cannot justify that 1 persons kids are worth more or less than someone elses kids.
Child tax needs to be completely disbanded. If couples cant agree on what is acceptable child support between them then there should be a tribunal that the parties could go to argue their case.
’cause I was gettiing more last year’ is not a justifiable reason.
’cause our child needs x clothes and y activities is’.
To not condone the current system means you support it Alan…..
Comment by Fathersday — Sun 2nd September 2012 @ 4:00 pm
Absolutely I support parents being responsible for sharing the costs of their children.
Clearly our current Act has a lot to be desired about it.
Peter Dunne wants it changed (but not soon), It was described to me in Court last week as “very difficult and hard to understand legislation” by a judge. IRD’s solicitor stated that the legislation was very inflexible.
However I stand by my comment that is a structure is designed explicitly for the purposes of avoiding taxation and the structure has no other rationale then to implement such a structure is illegal. That is one of the tests that determines evasion versus avoidance.
It is not a surprise to anyone here that I work within the law as well as seeking to lobby for changes to Family Law (which Child Support probably isn’t).
Happy Fathers Day to you all.
The offensive part about Child Support is that what WINZ provides for the care of a child by way of benefit is a fraction of what parent’s liable for Child Support are expected to pay. Unfortunately Child Support is about benefit recovery and the major person being supported is the “custodial” parent hence it is more akin to spousal maintenance.
Comment by allan harvey — Sun 2nd September 2012 @ 5:15 pm
Richard,
Welcome to the stinking club. I got reassessed for a random period (4 years ago) last month. (12k additional) plus copped an extra $400 per month. Hearing was 11 minutes. Am appealing but probably good money after bad. I did not listen to these guys in here at the beginning. The reality is, they DO NOT CARE. The might of the state is behind these cretins and your costs of getting justice will outweigh the benefits.
Good luck my friend
Comment by Shafted — Mon 3rd September 2012 @ 10:22 am
The concepts around taxation have evolved. There was a time when a man’s first duty was to his family and as the saying went; everyman’s duty to pay the least amount of tax. In the Bitch State that has evolved in this country the State is demanding men’s duty and compliance to itself before their children. Usury and other things illegal except when it is done by the state and its secret court. Women have got it in their heads that this is a wonderful thing – a court where you can’t lose – that this so called law will benefit children. All we will see from this rehash is increased poverty and more social dislocation. Working within the law Allan – how can you work within the law when there is a dysfunctional court that lawyers won’t or cannot be bothered representing men, in child support litigation? How many men have been told you don’t have a choice – you have to make a deal with the state rather than challenge the legislation in court? The system is not just fucked; it has killed thousands of men in New Zealand and alienated many more to other jurisdictions. You only have to read the drivel unloaded in the hansard debate of the first reading this child support amendment act to see that there is little understanding of the social impact of this legislation. Let’s be clear on another thing. It is a piece of legislation and when government agents have to break the law, break court rules, undermine established principles of justice, hide court decisions, threaten people and all other manner of skulduggery that goes with enforcing a financial outcome, you can only kid yourself that you are working within the law.
Comment by Down Under — Mon 3rd September 2012 @ 10:46 am
#106. Allan…. Some famous quotes for you…
“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”
Thomas Jefferson
“One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.”
Martin Luther King, Jr.
“Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as cooperation with good. ”
Mahatma Gandhi
I could go on, there are many….
Comment by Fathersday — Mon 3rd September 2012 @ 12:15 pm
If you want to exchange quotes or personal stories I am available on [email protected]
I have no desire to do so (especially on this topic)here.
There may be tales to share but I am not doing so with anonymous posters on a public forum.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 3rd September 2012 @ 11:20 pm
#99 Alan Harvey – Can you please confirm where you got this information – ” Besides Child Support is assessed on income rather than assetts. ”
because my experience will discredit this statement entirely – I have been assessed on the MAXIMUM income requirement, and been forced to pay private school ( which was noted by the Court appointed Psychologist as contributing to the childs SEVERE psychological harm – with recommendations the child attend a public school like everyone else to reduce this stress – but thats been ignored )
My assessment are being made not on INCOME.
They claim I have the ability to earn more = BUT refuse to acknowledge I am a full time dad.
I receive a reduced income from what I once earned – but this FACT is not considered.
My child was allowed to be sent to my home to spy on what we have, and to report back.
The review person, was full of envy and hatred in her voice at what I have left after divorce and this is DIRECTLY what I have been assessed on – my ASSETS or those currently in a family trust set up for my kids.
This has nothing to do with INCOME at all – they are after your property.
When I paid the first requests which at the start were based on my actual income – as per the formula – I paid this because it was fair and accurate.
But then the review process kicks in, and these fantasy numbers are made up – not based on any FACTS at all.
So I then get a BACKDATED demand, covering the period I paid what they told me to pay – and got penalties on top of that as well – A demand for $7000.
And when I refused to pay what they demanded – no one would agree to this bullshit – they came to our home, distressed by kids and stole my family vehicles ( illegally seized my wifes personal family vehicle ) and held them under threat of sale at a no reserve auction to extort the payments.
THIS IS THE REALITY PARENTS……….Its a BIG business designed to be difficult, impossible to challenge and used to leverage borrowing against huge outstanding penalties arising from OPPRESSIVE demands using your CHILDREN as leverage.
This is NOT about INCOME.
Comment by hornet — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 1:30 pm
dont own anything..dont have money..dont own vehicles..dont have assets and have as little income as you can possibly survive on..if you dont have anything they cant take anything
Comment by Ford — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 1:51 pm
its good to be a broken ass unemployed bum
Comment by Ford — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 1:56 pm
Ford, I hear you mate, if I did not have a good family to protect and a great wife and another great child to look after, I would be off somewhere – surviving like I enjoy doing – with the bare minimum – I agree entirely, not being shackled with property and assets is a freedom few understand. All I have – my wife and kids get when I go – its all for them at the end of the day.
Comment by hornet — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 2:04 pm
I’ll tell you a worse one, have CYF steal your child – On a malicious accusation – Place the child in Home for life with a total stranger. CYF will then refuse access even though Psych and L4C support it, AND tou get the honor of paying Child support for nothing!
Comment by Gwahir — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 2:16 pm
The reality of a modern economy is that with an economic downtown more men are likely to be made redundant than women. With the worsening international situation reaching our shores with a renewed vengeance there will be plenty of unemployed lads struggling to make ends meet next year, so you won’t be alone there Ford.
Comment by Down Under — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 2:30 pm
Gwahir – yes that would be horrible – only difference with your situation and most others, is your child was FORMALLY removed – most of us have the same result – depravation your child = by STEALTH, LIES and DECEIT.
Comment by hornet — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 2:39 pm
Downunder – yes that will be the case – economies die slowly – we sit with Greece, Spain, Portugal as the most at risk countries to loan money to. We have huge CASH shortages – and a govt spending MORE not saving – which is why they are raping the public of every cent they can – AUSTERITY measures = we have been through all the same as GREECE – almost subject for subject – increases in Car Rego, Alcohol, Petrol, Electricity, Rates – so whats next – when there is nothing left to take = will we also see Superannuation cuts and savings being plundered from our bank accounts??…… like they are currently trading off in GREECE so they can borrow more???
Comment by hornet — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 2:44 pm
#116..ive been on the bones of my arse all my life..so being broke as is nothing new to me..its how i live my life and if the going gets really tough..ill go shoot a rabbit for dinner
Comment by Ford — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 2:56 pm
#118..i gave up smoking and drinking for my healths sake and also the fact that i got sick and fkn tired of giving the govt my hard earned petty cash and when im free of CS i dont mind living in the bush cos thats probaby where ill end up..another blanket man
Comment by Ford — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 3:00 pm
You meet the best people when you are judged on your character alone, and not by what you own or are perceived to have.
Comment by hornet — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 3:05 pm
i think these workers at IRD need to be targeted and hit hard.. down to clerical level.. we know nothing will change short of using hard tactics… we are being too considerate so not considered a threat..
Comment by Anonymous — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 3:50 pm
Maybe we need the Jims (Bailey and Bagnall) resurected along with their megaphones! They forced changes at CYF and the family court, though they will never be credited for it!
Maybe we should start the same actions outside the IRD’s offices, clog their phone systems and web pages, and picket their homes again. It worked before!
Comment by Gwahir — Tue 13th November 2012 @ 3:59 pm
For the first time in my life I’m about to get a solicitor involved. I”m currently unemployed as of this year. I live in Australia and I’m an Australian. The NZ system is flawed as per above comments. I’m not on benefits and surviving on the last of my savings from years of working my guts out. Historically I have paid child care while I was working (last 9 years). Now I’m unemployed (read $0 a week income) they still want the same amount of money from me. They will not acknowledge any letters I’ve written them and are no way interested in negotiating any outcome, hence why I need to get solicitors involved. What a pathetic system. Their employees are useless as well. There computer systems are completely whack. Meanwhile I haven’t seen my daughter now for close to 9 years…I’m surprised that people don’t loose it and rock up to the government department and start shooting everyone. Pushing people past their limits is what the NZ IRD child care seem to be good at.
NZ IRD YOU ARE A DISGRACE.
Comment by Rob — Sat 1st December 2012 @ 2:30 pm