Response to Radio NZ interview re men thrown out of their homes
Dear James Kirk
Regarding the interview this morning on Radio NZ’s Nine to Noon, we support the idea that that state provide housing for men thrown out of their homes through Police ‘Safety Orders’. However, many of those men need emotional, legal and practical support to deal with injustice towards them.
You and Ms Robinson failed to mention that many such men are ordered out of their homes only because they are males. The wording of the relevant Act allows police complete discretion over whom they give these Orders to, and many are based on police tendency to pick on the male in the hope of avoiding further call outs to the address regardless of who appeared to be the violent party or the most violent party. Police also tend to believe women’s false allegations even when the male is the only one with visible injuries and there is no sign of violence towards the woman. We agree with your emphasis on respect towards men who have been thrown out of their own homes but surely this includes acknowledging the true picture, that many of those men are the real victims of any family violence and/or the male-abusing system.
Of course, for those men and women who are the perpetrators of violence it’s important for them to be supported in changing their beliefs and behaviour. However, you made no mention of the need for violent women to change; why is this?
We are concerned that you and Ms Robinson would speak about family violence as though only men ever commit it and only women ever suffer from it. Ms Robinson made vague references to ‘the research’ but we would suggest the research base and objective statistics be represented honestly. For example, both of our world-renown longitudinal studies in Dunedin and Christchurch plus numerous international studies have shown clearly that women commit at least as many acts of violence towards their intimate partners as men do, but the men’s violence is, on average, more serious. Nevertheless, a significant albeit smaller proportion of serious violence is committed by women. For example, the most recent NZ family violence deaths statistics show that 24% of the intimate partner killers were women amd 27% of the victims of intimate partner homicides were men.
We hope that you become more honest about the area in which you both work. Condoning or colluding with sexist, anti-male laws, law enforcement and social attitudes is most unlikely to lead to more caring and responsible attitudes in either the men or women who would benefit from such change.
Yours faithfully
Ministry of Men’s Affairs (A community group because successive governments have neglected the voice and welfare of NZ men)
I have been told that I will be arrested for breach of a protection order
I have been arrested for breach of a protection order , locked up for the weekend then the charges were dropped by the police.
I was told there is a “breach of a protection order in our system” by a road side cop when there has not been any breach at all.
In the first instance I asked the policeman ” have you read the protection order page four” “No” was the reply, let me get you a copy, now that you have read it do you still want to arrest me? “no”
I have been told on 3 occasions that “you will be arrested for breach of the parenting order” (the police need to demonstrate absolute coercion for this)
I have been contacted by the police for some other mummy generated drivel on many other occasions over the years.
My point is: based on this, these instances I would be sent to this “safe house” and expected to “walk beside a mentor”. “admit fault and repent”. In the instance of “Guilty” I might and might have to.
In the instance of “Allegation” I won’t and why the hell should I?
Comment by Simon grant — Wed 2nd November 2016 @ 11:51 pm
If these Police “Safety Orders” were designed to get a “dangerous” person out of the house to cool down, then they are NOT being used only for that purpose. A friend of mine left the place when he had supervised contact with his children and went home. His ex went to collect the kids and got into an altercation with the staff at the supervised contact place. The Police were called. Somehow, she managed to convince the Police that the disagreement was all her husband’s fault. The Police showed up at his house and handed him a Safety Order. The husband and wife weren’t even living in the same house !
Clearly the Police are too dumb to understand the Legislation and issue orders they have no right issuing.
Comment by golfa — Thu 3rd November 2016 @ 3:51 pm
I suspect the Police are just to lazy to investigate when they have a “simple” remedy available. I have a guy seen this week with an eye injury inflicted by her on Sunday but guess who has the PSO against them?
Comment by Allan Harvey — Thu 3rd November 2016 @ 5:37 pm
When men are seen as predators by society at large then it becomes logical that being ‘safe’ is a female prerogative. I really fear where this is all heading in the long term. When a cancer strikes a body the answer is to cut it out or defeat it by stealth (chemo & radiology) The cancer of feminism must be dealt with along the same lines.
Comment by triassic — Thu 3rd November 2016 @ 6:24 pm
WHen we consider the Family Court Process and all of the associated dishonesty, often by so called professionals which is part and parcel of this and how long it’s been carrying on, together with the Police and all of the other crap we must come back to the same point.
Caring and good fathers are not valued, encouraged or assisted.
Until that happens fathers I say do your best for your children, do it for your self respect but then accept that you are not valued or wanted in your children’s lives by any one other than your children.
Put your own “maximum anguish” limit on things, when that is reached (we are all different in that respect) then leave. For our own preservation, just go. Consider that your genuine input for your children can only last until perhaps your fourth Family Court Hearing and second arrest or PSO (or what ever your pain threshold is) but condition yourself at the beginning for that time, at the outset.
To have visions of your children with you later in life may be upsetting – so don’t have them because under the existing regieme (Family Court, Without notice, Police, Attachment issues crap etc) you are not going to get there in one piece.
Accept that from day one
Understand your “maximum anguish threshold”
Realsie that these processes are not designed around your value as a parent but the opposite.
You have no value – actions speak louder than words, look at the actions of this lot. (your children value you) but that is not what it’s about because to deliver anything for them you must endure debillating, humiliating bias at every turn which will destroy you and then you are of no value to your children so preserve yourselves, save yourselves and leave early.
Comment by Simon grant — Thu 3rd November 2016 @ 7:20 pm
There was an item in the news this week about why men are not marrying anymore. The {journalist avoided mentioning the MGTOW movement; or that relationships are too dangerous; or that relationships are a bad investment infested with inequality; – it seems we only have reasons which allows feminists to maintain the sanctimoneous self rightious delusions about themselves.
Comment by Jerry — Fri 4th November 2016 @ 3:29 am
Increasingly children are being taught that disrespect for adult males is acceptable, perhaps even expected.
Over time that leads to emotional detachment from fathers by children and while men are suffering increasing financial restraints in their lives fathers become a disposable parent and predominantly the disposed of parent.
Comment by Evan Myers — Fri 4th November 2016 @ 6:10 am
Even Myers @ 7: Men are already disposable and predominantly the disposed of parent. This has been the case since the state usurped men’s role as providers and protectors, charging the men financially for this privilege.
Over time, disrespect and disposability for men will lead to collapse of society and civilization as increasing numbers of men abandon their contribution and allegiance to their state and to the functioning and safety of their society. Note recent statistics showing gang membership increasing, and the government’s need to build more prisons. ‘You ain’t seen nothing yet’.
Comment by Man X Norton — Fri 4th November 2016 @ 7:30 am
We’ve seen this in recent history when the Mafia took hold in the US. The Democrats did a deal for their vote, didn’t hold to the bargain, and JFK took a bullet in return.
We’re seeing it now in Turkey, where Erdogan has released 40,000 prisoners, locked up judges, opposition politicians, editors, journalists, and civil servants.
It’s a matter of time and place, and the people involved.
Be interesting to see how men in NZ respond when disorder does reach our shores.
Comment by Evan Myers — Sat 5th November 2016 @ 8:30 am
Good to see this post. Very important subject, imo.
It’s also good to see this getting media attention and I too would like to add to your information.
I’ve noticed a growth in teams of people addressing domestic violence over the past few years and that means there is a lot of information spreading across New Zealand. (from person to person, group to group – ie: a church person is on a team and they take back all the information they’ve learned to their congregation). I mention this because MoM is up against a lot.
……………. ALSO,
From my time with MRAs, I know there are researchers (ie: university psychologists) creating social programs (procedure – ie: from the PSO (step 1) comes the institution (step 2), then step 3, step 4 ….. and so on. Not sure how many steps) and that the men’s refuges (institutions other than prison) are for the abusers.
What these 2 people are saying, is that once the men enter the refuge (institution), they have things in place (ie: they will assess the male and decide what he should do – they will use what’s available in the community – anger management, drug & alcohol rehabs, parenting programs designed for men and following policy that children don’t ever trust men while men are to respect women & children).
These 2 people are advertising for sponsors-mentors who are to assist the men when back into the community. (ie: when the situations arise that call for concern, for example – when drinking).
…………..
I agree men need emotional support and they should be allowed rights. Unfortunately, lawyers are also trained to follow proceedure and they will simply say, “Go do step 2, step 3, etc”.
It does seem weird for as a preventative, there shouldn’t be a law enforcing institution.
…………..
I think in many circumstances there hasn’t been violence, that the PSO is a preventative (ie: take a breather, take a break). I also agree with Allan about the use of PSOs and laziness.
I could write about the use and abuse of PSOs but that’s for another time.
…………..
I am concerned that men are to be institutionalized on a possible scenario. It’s like a future science fiction movie where they imprison people based on probably cause – ie: they could be violent and we’ll arrest them before they do.
I am concerned that men’s autonomy is taken away – ie: others are making decisions for them.
I am concerned about their emotional well-being – these 2 people are saying men go and stay at family and/or friend’s homes where violence is acceptable. I see many family men who come from overseas and don’t have family in NZ while they don’t spend time creating strong ‘mate’ relationships after work (they come straight home and spend time with their family).
Suicide is something I too would like to see addressed.
IT SURE IS A WORRY. I hear your frustration MoM. This is a biggie.
Comment by Julie — Fri 25th November 2016 @ 6:11 am
I would also like to add that I think what they are doing is a good thing – for the right people.
I live among this – It took me 7 years to deal with a male abuser and consisted of numerous complaints to the police complaints authority, numerous emails to politicians and so on and so on. In the end, the social workers and their whole network simply kept writing on their reports “The parents are maturing”.
Also,
When in conversation with a cop at court one day, I asked, “When does it end?” for people start in the criminal court at a young age and come back time after time. The cop answered, “When they get sick of it”.
…………
The attitude of society is this – The violence will end when the people involved grow up – when something forces them to stop (death, sickness, physical deformed etc.)
Problem is, there is children involved and when the families are large, there’s nowhere for the children to go. We are already in a crisis with not enough homes for all these children living in unhealthy situations.
…………
Another problem is that innocent people get caught up in these proceedures. People involved say they are working with the worst of the worst but that is a small percentage of couples and parents. Psychologists say to the MRAs, “We can’t create a one size fits all” but in saying that, they are forcing the large number of other couples and parents to be treated as the worst of the worst.
Sorry all for my rave, I could go on and on, lol.
Survive another day y’all.
Comment by Julie — Fri 25th November 2016 @ 6:36 am
Help is at hand!!!
White Ribbon wants to give kiwi dads the confidence and skills to talk about respectful relationships and respectful sexual relationships with their sons, so we’ve created a toolbox for dads ‘Raising Respectful Sons’ and ‘Bringing up Boys who Respect’ (for younger dads)
Click on these five short videos that focus on the top five tips for dads
These materials need to be looked at. They show the social distortions caused by careless Government funding. They will probably create as many problems as they solve.
The curious aspect is that they appear to have been copied from NZ Family Planning and USA written materials. To a quick glance anyway, the references are not anti-male sexist. So the NZ writers have gone to a significant amount of work to degrade the materials, funded by NZ Government?
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sat 26th November 2016 @ 11:13 am
@Comment no 12.
hehehe
One of the things Jim Bagnall promoted a lot was humour. It is a fantastic coping tool and saves people dealing with interventions (& interventionists) from being consumed by it. (that is, others taking away your autonomy, your identity, your adulthood and independence, your soul)
I think I should learn how to express the way you do Murray. I would like that, hehe.
PS – the remembrance post on Jim Bagnall is awesome. I am sad I missed it.
Comment by Julie — Sat 26th November 2016 @ 10:25 pm
YouTube told me that the number of people who had watched White Ribbon videos was about 200, so they aren’t doing too much harm to our society. Maybe the main damage is what the Government isn’t doing, because of what it has spent on White Ribbon. Rest easy….
I would have thought they would be more useful if they addressed all types of abusive relationships.
Dear Julie, be safe, don’t make jokes like I do. I get into a bit of trouble at times…..
Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 27th November 2016 @ 8:32 am
Sunday, 27 November 2016
“Keep your chin up!”, Has everyone been telling you how to behave?
Us Dad’s that never saw the separation coming, thought that her guilt or conscience would prevail…..she has already moved on and you better bloody hurry up!
I don’t know your situation, however there is a trend that started about five-ten years ago….I have experienced it all first hand.
Custody Checklist
She will tell you to behave in a certain way or she will call the police and tell them you have hurt her, uses children as leverage-“If you want to see……”
Few weeks later after constant tension, she starts a big argument and tries to make you hit/hurt her. You don’t but the police are called anyways.
Police tell you that it would be best if you grabbed a bag of clothes and stuff and stay at your mates, “Until everyone calms down”…..Two things at this point-1.The police receive financial incentives for Domestic Violence cases 2. You won’t be seeing your children for quite some time.
When you go to work on Monday morning, she is at the District Court applying for a Protection Order. She won’t tell you what she has done.
All calls and texts will be ignored and stored for use against you in court.
Frustration at no contact with your children (your best best friends)
Slowly frustration manifests, you can’t believe this is happening! ‘Hopefully she will soon come to her senses’…….At this point- She already has a lawyer, a court order,backing from the police and more control over people and outcomes, than she has ever had before. She is loving it plus she is hoping like hell, that you breach the Protection Order.
A couple weeks later you realise that this is for real, you think that you need a lawyer- You Don’t!-
You start reading Family Court proceedings and start to realise the severity of what is happening (Around 5 weeks too late)
Your newly acquired lawyer tells you what typically will happen -Including time frame, background checks on you(she doesn’t get checked), lawyer fees and payments….At this point- A lawyer does what you ask them to do and will seldom use their initiative.
You learn about Lawyer for Child (L4C), you think”Alright, this person is going to help me see my children soon”, they aren’t.
You are instructed to complete Separation Courses where the focus is on ‘Best for Child’. Ironic that neither your children nor her have to attend. At least you now are in the system and shown that you can follow court directions.
You may decide that,in an attempt to save money, you will represent yourself. As you have completed the court directed course,you are entitled to. Unfortunately, all of your e-mails/ phone calls will never be answered and any documents that you file, will likely be lost(added to wrong case file accidentally)
The big one that seems to be very common is….She gave a ‘False Affidavit’, surely she will have to prove her sworn affidavit, she won’t. The courts want to see if you are the person depicted in all of her statements, that is all. The sole focus is ‘How to control the Dad’.
You will be informed of courses to complete by certain dates, informed that contact will be very minimal with your children and she will not have to complete any courses plus she dictates the contact agreement which she can terminate at any point she decides
All I can say is, A real parent would not put their children through this ordeal. A poor little 4 year old girl that really wants to see her Daddy, cries and checks the garage looking for Dad, waits by her bedroom window hoping that Dad might call in and give her a hug….Unfortunately, her Dad is too afraid of remand so stays well clear.
The little girl soon learns that she is not to mention her Dad ,as it upsets her Mummy. This is the beginning stages of Alienation of one parent. After a few months the child has developed PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome).
……I still can’t understand, why would a mother torture an innocent heart?
A real loser would give up and write the kids off….A real awesome Dad, will do the courses directed and keep thinking about what an awesome and brave child you have….It is way harder for them than you!!
There is a silent club of brothers everywhere…it is really cool that the most unassuming guys, have great advice. Not just your culture/skin colour too.
If you happen to find the club.. be cool, respect what you hear and DO NOT give advice, you are a freshman a baby, you know stuff all…plus don’t tell everyone at smoko, they don’t want to hear it.
Cheers for reading…If you want more ……let me know
Comment by Cam — Mon 28th November 2016 @ 11:08 pm
Almost verbatim what happened to me Cam.Now she wants to take the kids to live in Australia. All of a sudden i am no longer a suitable caregiver for the children (at her whim) and “the kids have figured out just what you are like”-oh really. They didn’t seem to have a problem with me for the past 15 years.
I believe that i am a good father, actively involved in the kids’s lives and upbringing, however all of that is now distilled down to every actual or perceived fault in my character.
It gets exhausting, i won’t give up, but life wasn’t meant to be like this!
Comment by shafted — Wed 30th November 2016 @ 10:10 am
CAM,
Fantastic assessment of the process, just typical.
Happened to me in almost the exact way you described.
C4c
Far worse than you describe
Just an underhanded Ex cop type
Cooked up evidence to support predetermined outcomes – it may be called perverting the course of justice.
Recomended an independent change over venue run by a convicted frauds ther, drug dealer and with psychiatric patients living there.
He would do nothing about this for two years. The mother befriended the people there, it was no longer independent.
He attempted to be reappointed using a memorandum seeking clarification – with our me seeing it, so that he could cover his arse re possible perversion of justice.
He presented evidence to judges with out me seeing it or supposed to know about it.
He precooked psychologists report outcomes which had detrimental utcomes for our children,
When the dead body was hanging in the children’s mothers house for my son to see c4c did noting, nothing at all.
This guy has the initials of PH from Porirua.
The mother gave evidence regarding her bikees associations and clearly had drug problems.
What did c4c do?
Discredit the father of course, what else could he do after that lot, when covering his own arse became his priority after that lot.
Comment by Simongrant — Thu 1st December 2016 @ 9:53 pm
Hi all,
Cam and Simon Grant….the same happened to me…is there an association or organisation that help dads like us in NZ ?
Why are we the best dads on earth and next minute the worst criminal our exs want to avoid ? It’s way too easy…Justice has to open its eyes.
Help me and all those dads please, I’m sick of crying because I miss my kid and because of the Justice’s mistakes.
Cheers
Comment by andrew — Wed 28th December 2016 @ 11:28 am