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MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Wed 30th May 2007

Men’s issues and where New Zealand stands.

Filed under: General — Julie @ 4:01 pm

I want to share with you my experience in the men’s movement because I think it is important to help changes.

We all know that NZ is a small place and that if we put ourselves out there we will get labelled. What label we wear to many people depends on what they think of us. We all know that the Father’s coalition has been labelled disgruntled fathers to the leaders but the public are sympathetic to the fathers and those in the community groups are also because these people can see the bias the leaders such as feminist lawyers and judges and politicians show through their words and actions. For instant, what sort of a potitician calls fathers DEADBEATS? If you just use common sense you can see that these politicians are horrible people. And lawyers that use DV orders against fathers are also horrible people plus greedy.

But what about everyone else? What about the media? Are all these men and women anti men? No, they are not. Ask them. From my learning they don’t like to interview the men’s movement because they find the men so angry. But then when you explain why the men they have interviewed in the past are angry, they sort of want to hear some more.

What about politicians? None of them disagree that women are also violent but they say the statistics show men to be the major perpertrators. So they see DV is good the way it is. Are they bad for not looking for more information? No, for they have a job to do and their jobs are full on as your jobs are. Does your boss or do you as a business owner allow you or others time to research stuff? No, of course not. They rely on the information given just as you do.

The only way these people are going to change is;

1. They interview the fathers coalition or other protestors more which is a good thing and;
2. You start giving them proof things are not how they are being shown.

There is one piece that many people can’t do when they are hurting and that is LISTENING to the other side. That is listening for the answer. It is almost impossible to give of yourself to listen when you are already overwhelmed by your own troubles. You don’t have the energy to give away. That is normal.

I have come to the conclusion that anger is not going to change a thing. Unless you can use it positively.

I have written to almost every group and every website and every politician. Many don’t reply when I insult or I demand. And I understand their thinking. They think, “If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.”

The men’s movement needs to be a part of the solution. Not making the problem worse by “I want because I deserve because I say so.” I know that is not what men or women are thinking when in pain but it does come across like this to the side that is being attacked. They must almost think, “Well, abuse is part of the territory. You can’t please everyone.”

For some strange reason (maybe through my anger at JimB), I am being asked my opinion from a certain group of politicians. I am not going to say who because although many have contacted me during my time here, this one is the most special and the only one I think gets the big picture as a full picture. You can guess who I speak of.

On another note, I have realised complaining to these websites is a waste of time although I will still do so. I know of the Family Violence Clearing House. They don’t give a toss at what I say. The publishers of ‘Bad Dad List’ don’t even have the courtesy to reply. In fact I think telling poeple who don’t already get of their butts is half a waste of time. I think the people that are already active in the community are the ones to contact. They are doers. Doers are a different “cattle of fish” than those who moan only. Although I understnad that moaning is healthy for the one that moans. So dumping your problems outside of yourself is healthy.

It is a good idea to listen to UF. The public needs to know. And as Jerry posted, people who are hurting is one thing but getting involved in helping males before they get to that stage is also important. That is giving. When you give, you are not being selfish. People don’t want to help people who are selfish. People want to help people who help other people. And also when you give you have someone elses rights to think of. You tread differently for others as you do for yourself.

It may be time to contact the scout leaders, the youth clubs, the soccer and rugby coaches. It may be time to teach people that are go getters rather than those who have given up. People are giving you the answer if you listen carefully.

Maybe, because I am a female I can hear the words. Maybe like JimB says men speak differently. Maybe men can’t hear words. Maybe men can only see actions. I will try to see actions if men will try and see words.

However, JimB, you are not allowed to reply if you are going to be negative. I am not here to compete with you. Just show a different side than what you believe.

29 Responses to “Men’s issues and where New Zealand stands.”

  1. starr says:

    Nice readable article hwoever “People want to help people who help other people”???? In todays ethics this is flawed… out there it really is ‘People want to TAKE FROM people who help other people AND DO HARM TO THE ONE DOING THE HELPING”.
    Otherwise good article for a short essay or beginnings of a thesis.

  2. Alastair says:

    Congrats Julie. Informally the police and their appendages agree that DV is 50/50. They are ham strung by official policy. Men are given the benefit of the doubt where ever possible. The only ones to get locked up are serious repeat offenders. The unwritten policy appears` to be get one or the other to walk and cool off – Even to the point of dropping them several KM’s away. Anything to avoid paperwork!

  3. julie says:

    Yes, starr. There a conmen and women who want to use people for their own agendas. But we all wake up to this eventually. On another note;

    Have you ever wondered about the saying, “Click groups” in councils and business? Do you know that it takes new groups and people about 3 years to win the hearts and minds of these groups? They sift out the non winners. Only the winners stay and once they are winners they get all the support needed because the other groups and businesses know what it was like to get where they are. They will bend over backwards to help once they realise these groups and businesses are stayers and have the ability to survive. These are lessons I have learn’t while being in NZ. Nothing has changed today by me being in community groups than what it did when my ex-husband and I ran our own business in the builiding trade.

  4. julie says:

    Alistair, shhh. You are not supposed to tell the police side to this. The feminists wil go nuts to know that men and women in the police force have a brain of their own. LOL

    What I find a great read and laugh is the autobiographies of ex cops.

    Them and what journalists uncover that they couldn’t print.

  5. dad4justice says:

    Corrupt scumbag Judge John Strettell froths 17th December 2001 “ Prima facie there had been psychological abuse and emotional abuse directed in relation to Miss K and to the other persons which would justify the final protection order as sought.”

    This after corrupt cops dropped male assaults female and threatening to kill ( over a dozen charges) Miss K and her EVIL family! All lies, lies , lies and more f##king lies !!!!

    There is nothing sacred about ‘the law’. Most laws are nowadays made by a small group of greedy, increasingly corrupt politicians and an army of unelected bureaucrats whose primary aim is to serve themselves.

    ‘The law’ is mostly nowadays designed to give these people power and wealth and to provide them with cushy jobs, lavish lifestyles and very generous expense accounts.

    Six years later, protection orders ( six ) are still in place and I suffer badly from parental alienation . Why have they done this ? What are my two daughters doing tonight ?

    Lies , lies , lies …….

  6. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    They are ham strung by official policy. Men are given the benefit of the doubt where ever possible. The only ones to get locked up are serious repeat offenders.

    Please check out the police policy on DV. It is quite clear that arrest is mandatory.

    Given sufficient evidence, offenders who are responsible for family violence offences shall, except in exceptional circumstances, be arrested. In the rare case where action other than arrest is contemplated, the member’s supervisor must be consulted (Police Commissioner Policy Circular 1996/2).

    see http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/
    2006/family-violence-pro-arrest-
    policy-literature-review/chapter-3.html#38

  7. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Julie,

    Thanks for the sermon :o)

    Please remember that a large number of men’s rights advocates are in fact highly educated and skilled individuals who are actively involved as change agents.

    They have a strategic direction and have planned the work and are working the plan.

    Listening does not mean agreeing with what someone is saying or that what they are saying adds any value.

    As to being part of the solution. I have a sign on my wall at work that sums it up. Consulting, if your not part of the solution theres a fortune to be made prolonging the problem.

    Men don’t need to be given the answer by listening, we know what the answer is. Its about being a man and thats what you don’t understand.

    We ask for and will accept nothing more than equality in all areas of life.

    Regards Scrap

  8. Rob Case says:

    Maybe, because I am a female I can hear the words.

    Sorry Julie, not buying it.

    You don’t enjoy any superior ability over men by simply being a woman. It’s tripe like this we have been politely ignoring for long enough.

  9. julie says:

    Wow, good to get some bites.

    Scrap, what Alistair says is happening. In fact now you can get a diversion for a second offense and soon it will be for a third offence. Not just for DV but other crimes. Police can’t keep up with the workload. The prosecutors can’t keep up with the workload. We need to build more Courts. The system can’t keep up with the policy makers.
    There is no room for small offenses so they are pushing them out as quick as possible. Good times for the people.

    Just wait for the ‘P’ cases to come down from the High Court (which isn’t coping) to the District Court. Just wait for the gangs to start using the huge amount of guns they have. We will soon move up from knives. That is life.

    Rob, I think pulling one sentence out is not worth it. There is more to the picture than one sentence. As it stands, I am embarrassed. I should be more careful how I use my words.

    I just hear different things. Maybe it is selective hearing. But then I too have an agenda but it is not to scrap the CSA nor to bring down the FC. That is too tough for me.

    For these things I know the men’s movement has startegic plans and plenty of statistics to use for policy making when they get to that position.

  10. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Scrap, what Alistair says is happening. In fact now you can get a diversion for a second offense and soon it will be for a third offence. Not just for DV

    Julie,

    Read the policy! Show me one case of diversion for the charge male assualts female.

    I just hear different things. Maybe it is selective hearing. But then I too have an agenda but it is not to scrap the CSA nor to bring down the FC.

    You are not listening – We ask for and will accept nothing more than equality in all areas of life.

    Rob, yes we are past ignoring the tripe. Well said

    Regards

    Scrap

  11. julie says:

    Scrap, you may be right. I have only witnessed a female receive diversion for assualting a male. I haven’t read the policy ‘man assualts female’ so can only presume it is much like drink driving. You can’t get diversion for that.

    I had last night looked at prices for a hall to hire bigger than the one I use to bring the public together on male awareness and got some good ideas from 4 others but then today I have been given the information that you and they have already tried to change things and big meetings have already been held with politicians and community groups and they have all agreed with the men’s concerns that things are unfair. But today is no different that 5 years ago. They don’t know the answer just as they didn’t know it then. (apparently) They don’t know how to fix it. I was told that sometimes you have to let the building burn down and from the ashes build better.

    So it may not be worth coming in with the same ideas you have already tried. It may just have to come down to society falling apart. But hey, you can’t blame a tryer. lol

    Equality IS on the agenda. It just isn’t happening as fast as had been presumed. Apparently it is the males who are too strong. Not a blame thing but if they work on the very young they may get the equality in next generation.

  12. Jim Bailey says:

    I see she who speaks from higher ground without authority is back – Onward – JIm

  13. julie says:

    Jim,

    ha, ha.
    Yes, I have been getting a bit too cocky. Too big for my britches.

    BTW, it was Matt who brought me back down to earth. He is a good man.

  14. Jim Bailey says:

    Julie,

    Matts a pushover to the likes of you

    Onward – Jim

  15. julie says:

    Jim,
    Nasty, nasty. Well, you’re not a pushover, that’s for sure.

    I need him for his knowledge of what other groups are like and who to stay away from.

    But he is supportive of you. He even collected signatures when Wayne walked to Wellington.

  16. julie says:

    I hope you guys can understand why I still have to hold this meeting. Not everyone knows about this and even if it will make no change they have a right to know.

  17. happy lady says:

    Your comments julie’ Seem to me as one Who Thinks They have got MEN sorted,…. Get real Lady,… You cannot ever know or speculate as to What is a ‘Man’or how they think.
    First you should look to your own gender..Not What men Want or Think…
    Are you Just after Sneering a Man for your own Devices…????..Sounds like it to many Women…Men Need to hear from their
    Own”.As well as General comment .Why do you try and hold the mantle for both sexes??? Find your -place or are you not a woman??? Men need Men?? Many Men have suffered as you will never know as a woman..Get Real and Let MEN have their Say NOT Yours every two minutes.

  18. julie says:

    Dear Happy Lady,

    Nice to have your comment. You probably won’t come back so my comment is most likely a waste of time.

    But if you do come back then I will bite.

  19. Jim Bailey says:

    Julie-H (Higher Ground),

    Whats nasty about what I said?

    Onward – Jim

  20. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    “Scrap, you may be right”

    Julie, its not a maybe.
    As to

    “Equality IS on the agenda. It just isn’t happening as fast as had been presumed. Apparently it is the males who are too strong. Not a blame thing but if they work on the very young they may get the equality in next generation.”

    Julie – What a gender feminist response!
    Apparently it has escaped your attention what 30 years of gender feminism has done to men. Like your sister’s you will next be arguing equity feminism to justify inequality!

    “So it may not be worth coming in with the same ideas you have already tried.”

    No, it requires an “asymmetrical social change ” approach by men. (see this link to understand asymmetrical warfare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetrical_warfare
    the underlying strategic concept behind asymmetrical social change – which by the way must be non violent)

    You need to appreciate the situation not situate your appreciation as you are currently doing.

    Regards

    Scrap

  21. julie says:

    Jim, I think you know what I mean’t. Careful. I am not going to admit to being charming because you don’t like that. But the days of using my sexuality are over. One must use their abilities as their age allows. lol

    Scrap, you are angry with me. You have never been angry with me until recently. Spill it. What have I done to piss you off.

  22. Jim Bailey says:

    Julie says “Jim, I think you know what I meant.”

    Yes Julie-H it is clear that you think you know

    Time to read **Games people play** again Julie-H

    Or was Berne to wise and possibly boring?

    There is a lot more to charming than sexuality – I am not aware of your sexuality – Was I ever?

    I am aware of some of your games – Sadly all of them common to women who are not in anyway supportive of men but are very quick to take higher ground on all issues and USE people, places and things.

    The game you play with Matt is well recorded and obvious – As you say you USE him as do you USE all men including your boys

    Using and supporting are opposites are they not?

    Go back to the **Equal** debate and attempt to come forward from there and then you may be of some positive use to a man, a boy or even a male group and for that matter an **Equal** group.

    The reason you are receiving funding is that you are in no way a threat to Femi-Fascism in fact you are promoting it as you USE men in social games are you not?

    USING is OK if its open and obvious, not Charm, or closeted even from oneself as I think maybe your brand is – Or is all that you say and do calculated for a USE?

    Your arrogance in the heading of this thread/threat says it all

    Onward – Jim

  23. julie says:

    Jim,

    Deep stuff. I deserve such words. Truth somethimes hurt.

    I read games people play. Well, not all of it. I found it boring.

    Matt said part of what you said but a bit more about me lighting fires. Making things worse. I do need to go back to the beginnning and start again.

  24. julie says:

    Jim,

    I don’t want to rock the boat because I am very sure I am not the type of female that is supportive of males how is needed but USING Matt is borderline. He does have a shop in West Auckland and that is business between retailer and customer. Just because we sparked a conversation and i learn’t he studied community work at Unitec and that he has been in the scene maybe as long as you have and we catch up does not neccessarily make me a user. But it does make him important to me by my needs getting met.

  25. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Julie,

    I am not angry with you. I am challenging you to look at what you are saying and to understand the underlying biasis and prejudice that exists.

    Its called hermenutics :Essentially, hermeneutics involves cultivating the ability to understand things from somebody else’s point of view, and to appreciate the cultural and social forces that may have influenced their outlook. Hermeneutics is the process of applying this understanding to interpreting the meaning of written texts and symbolic artifacts (such as art or sculpture or architecture), which may be either historic or contemporary.

    In the last two centuries, the scope of hermeneutics has expanded to include the investigation and interpretation not only of textual and artistic works, but of human behaviour generally, including language and patterns of speech, social institutions, and ritual behaviours (such as religious ceremonies, political rallies, football matches, rock concerts, etc.). Hermeneutics interprets or inquires into the meaning and import of these phenomena, through understanding the point of view and ‘inner life’ (Dilthey) of an insider, or the first-person perspective of an engaged participant in these phenomena.

    The above is a very brief comment, but I am not angry.

    Regards

    Scrap

  26. Jim Bailey says:

    Julie, They were your words that you use Matt – Not mine

    Onward – Jim

  27. julie says:

    Jim they weren’t my words. I was explaining what I mean’t by writing nasty, nasty. I thought you were referring to me being able to manipulate him by you previous comment.

  28. happylady says:

    JULIE….
    Get Real “If I come Back you will BITE.”
    Your words…..{How Stupid}
    Wake up you sound like a DOG..They bite..and get put Down…?
    All Women of Value and Integrity Do Not Bite.Men and Women in the most part value each others comments even though they may Disagree…
    You should look Very Closely at your self Your comments sound like a Runaway
    Mongrel…Men are Valued in the up most… But not by women like you who
    swing to and frow for their owns AGENDAS

  29. julie says:

    Hi Happy lady, nice to see you reading the site.

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