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Sun 21st March 2010

Opening address to the Promoting Mental health and Well-being In Men symposium

MP Peter Dunne from United Future political party opened the Wairarapa Men’s Health meeting very well, ..I thought. I particularly liked the way he addressed lots of areas where work is needed and included men’s issues spoken on men’s sites. I know some of his wording won’t go down well but I also know it’s good to see progress.

Here is part of his speech….

I want to spend a few minutes this morning touching on some of the more difficult realities faced by men in New Zealand – and perhaps it will be a sensitive issue in this room today, as much as it is in wider New Zealand.

We have a lot of angry men in this country.

They tend to be men who are very hurt, often coming out of relationship break-ups in which they feel they have been unfairly treated – particularly in areas such as custody of children and child support.

Chief Family Court Judge Peter Boshier last year – to his very real credit – addressed the tragedy that 18 people involved in Family Court proceedings had killed themselves in a 12-month period to June last year.

Add to that four homicides.

Three-quarters of those were involved in disputes over their children.

In short, too many men feel they are not getting a fair go, particularly in Family Court proceedings.

They can be loud.

They can be difficult to deal with.

Sometimes they can be their own worst enemies.

Why?

Because that anger makes them too easy to dismiss.

‘They’re angry, they’re bitter, they’re woman-haters, they’re nutters’.

I am sure you have heard it all before.

And yes, they are too easy to dismiss.

But as a society, we do so at our peril.

Also – and we should remember this – to do so is simply not fair.

I think we need to listen to these men more.

We need to actually take a hard look at why they are angry and hurt, and not just say ‘you’re angry; go away’.

That has not happened enough in society or in government.

Over the last two years I have working on a review of aspects of the Child Support system.

I know I have been vilified by many men’s groups because I have not clicked my fingers and resolved all their problems overnight.

I do not for one minute diminish, nor do I underestimate the depth of their feelings and their anxieties.

But, in part because of the image of the angry men I referred to a moment or two ago, this is an area in which I am discovering the need to tread carefully in developing viable solutions.

My commitment to resolving the issues remains undimmed, however, and the issue remains a high priority for me.

In coming here today and speaking on how men can help themselves, we perhaps need to acknowledge where men need to be heard, listened to and respected by society and by government.

I do not see this as a ‘men versus women’ situation.

In fact, my experience is that the vast majority of women recognise that there are areas where men do not and have not got a fair go, and they would like that remedied.

Contrary to various ‘gender wars’ theories, the vast majority of women actually like the men in their lives and care for them and want the best for them.

Over recent decades, much has been done to advance the causes and promote the interests of women.

And that work has been so important and remains so.

No one wants the pendulum to swing back the other way, but just to the middle perhaps.

That will start with events like today.

It will start when we realise that men have their own particular and equally valid concerns.

It starts young.

Our boys are falling behind our girls in educational achievement.

That needs addressing.

Our men are less healthy than our women.

They have specific mental health concerns.

They kill themselves more often than women.

We need to talk about all these things and increase the amount of action around them.

84 Responses to “Opening address to the Promoting Mental health and Well-being In Men symposium”

  1. Skeptik says:

    An open comment to Mr Peter Dunne.

    I can’t help but think of all the years you’ve prevaricated, obfuscated and just plain idled away whilst men suffered.
    And that as a politician consumate at hanging onto power that you simply smell there’s change in the wind and now want to be part of it.

    Many years too late Mr Dunne.
    Many lives too late Mr Dunne.

  2. Alastair says:

    Having spoken with a person who was there, this is but one tiny speech. I think much good will come. Other papers in electronic form will certainly follow.

  3. SicKofNZ says:

    I do not see this as a ‘men versus women’ situation.

    Unfortunately the Femily Caught, Women’s Refuge, CYFS, Police, Schools and every other Government Department or organisation that is funded by the State are staffed by people who are affected and influenced by the open misandry that permeates our society. They see it as a Men versus Women issue!

    Chief Family Court Judge Peter Boshier last year — to his very real credit — addressed the tragedy that 18 people involved in Family Court proceedings had killed themselves in a 12-month period to June last year.

    To this Hitler Youth Group Member’s discredit he blamed Jews for their own demise rather than take any personal responsibility for the poor oversight of his Jew-hating Courts. The real tragedy is his ignorance of the effect of misandry.

    In fact, my experience is that the vast majority of women recognise that there are areas where men do not and have not got a fair go, and they would like that remedied.
    In short, too many men feel they are not getting a fair go, particularly in Family Court proceedings.
    They can be loud.
    They can be difficult to deal with.
    Sometimes they can be their own worst enemies.
    Why?
    Because that anger makes them too easy to dismiss.

    Bullsh!t!! Sit your fat arse down in Boshier’s Court Aushwitch to cure yourself of your ignorance. Misandry is practised by women, lawyers and Femily Caught Judges. Do we blame the Jews for institutionalised hatred? Misandry makes MEN too easy to dismiss you ignorant fool! Men’s anger is the result of misandry. Score for 2009 = 18!

    I know I have been vilified by many men’s groups because I have not clicked my fingers and resolved all their problems overnight.

    You’ve resolved NONE of their problems you vote-whoring Wally!

    Q. How does a Jew survive under a Nazi regime where Hitler’s Youth Group are entrusted with ensuring the legal rights are maintained for that Jew?
    A. He doesn’t survive but that is the fault of the Jew right?

  4. Roger says:

    Yeah it’s all talk no action as usual. Meanwhile my health deteriorates as I can’t afford to even see a doctor about my out of control glucose levels or get glasses to help me in my job. Just spent $500 on teeth and they want another $6000 to fix the rest – not going to happen when I have NO discretionary income. I’m a manager for a strategic part of a thriving company. The IRD take 24% of my net income and I live in disguised poverty while the “ex” poisons the mind of my child and lives high on the hog, herself a manager in the banking industry. To fight this I have to disclose my financial status to her – how is that fair, what happened to my privacy. Why is her income not factored in to the equation? The system is not a system of equity but that of tyranny to greedy proportions. Your empathy Mr Dunne is not enough. Your action is non existent. My patronage towards this country as one of the forgotten men has been so eroded over the last four years that I have no regard for government whatsoever. It does nothing to balance the inequity imposed on me and my future. It drives men to perform poorly because there is no reward to do anything more, just more hardship. Suicide is not an unreasonable solution to a system that will not listen or act on behalf of men.

  5. Vince says:

    Personally I took time to read Peter Dunny’s entire speech as published on his beehive website and was surprised to see that the focus was more about mental health than on family court issues. I have had no involvement with the family court and now am passed that era, my children having left home, obtained qualifications and are now gainfully employed.

    But the mental fall out from the process of marriage and child raising remain with me and show no signs of abating due to the ongoing implications of the rise in female power and dominance that have eroded my life on many fronts. And yes, I am often angry about this and wish that I knew when I was young about the trap called marriage that I fell into. I would have probably decided not to stick my head in the trap in the first place.

    I don’t want to waffle for too long and will get to the point that I wish to make. From my observations there are several forms of power in relationships. Physical power, emotional power, intellectual power and perhaps spiritual power. Physical and intellectual power have been the traditional domain if male influence and dominance, whereas emotional power has been largely the domain of females. Obviously the rise in female education and the decline in male education reflects the shift in the intellectual power balance toward females. After all they can now do anything and are worth it!! I will leave out spiritual because I think it is an area that is abused by both genders, including Peter Dunny.

    Now I get to Mental Health issues. Most of the issues mentioned in the speech come under the definition of ‘Disorders of Emotion and Control’. Anger, physical aggression, alcoholism, addictions of all types, eating disorders (too much or too little) etc etc. Disorders of “Emotion” and “Control” of that emotion.

    And which gender is it that prevails in the Emotional arena. You guessed it, females.

    And which gender is it that has there ability to dominate physically removed by law, You guessed it, males.

    And how do I know this? Apart from it being blatantly obvious, I first came to recognise the issue in my own life when I was being assessed through the mental health processes and was declared to be a ‘totally powerless person’ and therefore an unfit candidate for treatment. This assessment was, of course made by a female. I was advised by this woman to go home and sort the situation out and then come back later and perhaps they could do something for me.

    For some time this experience mystified me, but gradually it dawned on me that she was right. I was powerless in my own household and in fact my wife took it upon herself to make all the decisions, to control the flow of thought and to have a sense of self ownership of the family, the house and even of myself.

    In fact she still does, I now prefer to observe the phenomena both in my own life and in other folks relationships, rather than trying to fight with something where I can never win. After all female human animals have immense resources when it comes to emotional dominance and we as men are hopelessly out gunned in that arena.

    I now prefer to right the balance as best I can by using intellectual arguments to explain to her what she is doing and how her matriarchal culture taught her to behave this way. ie she learned her tricks from her female forebears and has indeed now past those same tricks down to our daughter, who will no doubt pass then down to her daughters..

    The trap is now set once more.

  6. John Dutchie says:

    reply to Chief Family Court Judge Peter Boshier

    ‘Over recent decades, much has been done to advance the causes and promote the interests of women.’

    Your above statement Sir,shows to me your true colors …..Yes to promote the interests of Woman and thus in turn, your Feminist Cohorts and your support Good Sir of this Evil extreme social engineering Feminism over the last 25 years have successfully and truly ‘Demonized’ all decent,caring and loving Men/Fathers…Thank you so kindly Judge Peter Boshier…My respect for you …is thus…I have none….!!!!

    Kind regards John Dutchie

  7. Alastair says:

    Where you also fit in is when your grandchildren are taken on some whim, and it can be as small as a teacher thinking the grand was violent or saw bruises on them to trigger a full investigation accross ALL your Grands.

    Vist http://www.cyfstalk.org and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pauls-news/. You have to Join both. Talk has some public content, then there is its sister site http://www.cyfswatch.org

  8. John Dutchie says:

    This below statement from Chief Family Court Judge Peter Boshier
    again makes my Blood boil,this totally bias Feminist Family courts as been happening for the last 25 years ..What time frame do you need to fix this problem your Honor….?????…Another 25 years …..!!!!!!!!

    ‘I know I have been vilified by many men’s groups because I have not clicked my fingers and resolved all their problems overnight.’

    Also might I humbly suggest your your Honor that you Good Sir,with the rest of your Feminist cohorts read a book called ‘A City Possessed’ written by a very well respected Author called ‘Lynsey Hood’…
    That might Good Sir open up your eyes on whats been really been happening here in N.Z concerning the Kiwi style of Extreme social engineering Feminism…..

    Kind regards John Dutchie

  9. Dan says:

    Thank-you for the Peter Dunn quote.

    I have now written him and provided a concrete example for his use (meaning me)

  10. ford says:

    provide him a block of concrete

  11. ford says:

    “oh hes angry…im not talking to him…hes unreasonable”…excuse females use to avoid an issue…no dialogue follows…problem still exists…”hes angry..he cant communicate”..excuse number 2…he still frustrated and angry…out comes a protect order…her lawyer says..’better make this look good so well add some shit to it so the judge will award us the order…no point coming out of court without the paperwork’…now hes f$#kn fuming…lied about…character assinated..cant see his kids freely…works down the gurgler…loses friends etc..ppl shy away from him..society shuns him(angry man remeber)..winz..ird treat him like some villian that shouldnt get assistance…all under the females say so…nothing i ever said in Astwich was ever respected and listened to…i was never heard…issues i wanted to discuss were brushed aside as irrelevant …not in the best interests of the kids blah blah blah…manipulated..orchestrated garbage..i was shot down b4 i even got to the door…ill never fight a womens lies again…cant win that argument in this Hitler regime..i never for once ever imagined id go thru what i have…what a toorid time…stressful…bad health…i thought life was to be enjoyed because i havent had such a hot time…and not only females in relationships play thier silly little control games…it happens in everyday life…ring winz..ird…females answer the ph…have to play thier game or they dont help…and beleive me they dont…can only get female lawyers to handle my case…why is that i wonder…1 gets told hes the cause of all the problems then at the end of it gets told to stop acting like a victim…thats reserved for the females isnt…they allowed to be victims but men arnt…cos we’re big bad bullies…women are the bullies in this society because our suck up politicians give them the tools to do so and then protect them…so many mens lives going to waste…all i saw in the opening header was all piss and wind by a politician who probably had his $200 lunch on his mind..id really like to be around long anuogh to see some significant changes but i doubt ill live that long…im 47 fit and healthy but ill never see it

  12. Nik says:

    So how about when a man is NOT angry or aggressive; abides in a polite and compassionate manner focused on the childrens well-being; often confirmed by Court psychologist and other professionals as equally competent in parenting his children.

    He is more likely to still be hammered by Child Support/Tax and very unlikely to have equal care of the children.

    While Dunne’s point on anger has some validity – it’s a weak excuse. Gosh – I might even be feeling some anger or disgust at the law of this land.

  13. rc says:

    I don’t know what’s wrong with Peter Dunne. I’ve never been near a family court, I haven’t had any kind of run-in with the law and I’ve never had any marital strife – but I only need to read a newspaper or watch the TV to get angry about how men are being treated in Western societies today. Sacrificed is probably a better word. And it’s all a product of laws that guys like him drafted and passed into legislation. What does he or anyone else in that useless building in Wellington plan to do about the guy in Mangakino who was falsely accused, imprisoned, probably violated then found not guilty in 7 minutes after a 5 day trial? How much more idiotic can the police and Crown prosecutors appear than that 12 ordinary people only need 7 minutes to come to a conclusion that the state insisted on taking to 5 days of trial? Why haven’t we seen Howard Broad on prime-time looking red-faced and having to explain this travesty, like we do whenever a woman is the victim of an inept police?

    Peter Dunne, you had your chance and you blew it. There’s plenty more who want your job.

  14. gwallan says:

    Contrary to various ‘gender wars’ theories, the vast majority of women actually like the men in their lives and care for them and want the best for them.

    True. Unfortunately most women couldn’t care less what happens to any other random male. Conversely history is a constant parade of men, who were often merely boys, stoically sacrificing their lives on behalf of complete strangers. Frequently compelled to do so I might add. Women and children first and women have priority.

    One only needs to view the broadspread glee emanating from masses women in response to stories about women who abuse men. When thousands of women will stand and applaud another women because she raped a ten year old – and this is seen merely as entertainment – we are not living in a healthy society.

  15. SicKofNZ says:

    So how about when a man is NOT angry or aggressive; abides in a polite and compassionate manner focused on the childrens well-being; often confirmed by Court psychologist and other professionals as equally competent in parenting his children.

    I can answer that question because that describes my conduct in the Femily Caught exactly.
    Despite my mature, child-focused demeanour I was too frequently berated by Judge NoBalls whenever my ex-wife misbehaved. The idiot, Judge Mills, was unable to differentiate between HER conduct and MINE. The useless pr!ck had NOTHING on me and the best he could do was to attempt to blame me for HER sh!t.
    You see, if a MAN does something wrong he is shouldered with that responsibility but if the WOMAN does something wrong the responsibility becomes shared between them both.
    Femily Caught Judges do this because they clearly believe that WOMEN are weaker than and less equal to MEN. They are the worst sexists out there!
    The ONLY reason I won custody was because Judge NoBalls almost sh!t himself when it became apparent that my son’s blood might be on his hands if he left him with his mental mother for much longer. He didn’t give a flying fark about my boy, only himself. What a cowardly piece of sh!t he is!

  16. ford says:

    (1) the desire or act to subjugate or oppress or punish or harm or injure, or murder a male because of his gender.

    (2) the deliberate preference of a female’s lie against the truth.

    (3) the belief that no father can be a fit parent.

    (4) the assumption that masculinity, male physiology, and male hormones cause males to become evil, sexually abusive, oppressive, and violent. The parallel assumption is we must raise boys as we do girls, in the image of misandry, without regard to a child’s unique qualities, preferences, hopes, and desires.

    (5) the assumption that every male is or can become sexually abusive, oppressive, and violent.

    (6) the assumption that females cannot be sexually abusive, oppressive, and violent.

    (7) the attribution of negative qualities and humanity’s historic evils to the entire male gender while ignoring female culpability.

    (8) the promulgation of false statistics against males regarding rape and family violence. The parallel assertion that female acts of abuse and violence against males are insignificant and are justified as self-defense.

    (9) the tolerance of female violence and abuse toward males.

    (10) the suppression of evidence of a female’s violence and abuse toward a male.

    (11) the encouragement or reporting or supporting or the toleration of false allegations and charges against a male because of his gender.

    (12) lying or the deliberate creation of false information against any male because of his gender.

    (13) the deliberate suppression or distortion of facts showing a female’s guilt or a male’s innocence.

    (14) the suppression or distortion of a male’s testimony because of his gender.

    (15) the falsification of transcripts, police reports, court reports, and evidence to adversely affect a male because of his gender.

    (16) the denial of historic male spiritual, intellectual, humanitarian, and material contributions to civilization.

    (17) the act of coercing women to lie against their husbands.

    (18) the act of coercing children to lie against their fathers.

    (19) the act of encouraging or instructing females to contrive, or testify to, false allegations of family violence, child abuse, child molestation, or rape against a male.

    (20) the act of making false allegations of family violence, child abuse, child molestation, or rape against a male.

    (21) the act of falsely testifying against a male to support false allegations of family violence, child abuse, child molestation, or rape.

    (22) blaming males for all psychological and social maladies.

    (23) encouraging or persuading another to lie against a male because of his gender.

    (24) the abuse of a male for personal satisfaction or material gain.

    (25) the failure to provide males equal protection under the law.

    (26) the use of female pronouns to refer to victims and male pronouns to refer to assailants, rapists, and suspects.

    (27) the actual or tacit toleration of mental, physical, or sexual abuse by a female upon a male.

    (28) the actual or tacit toleration of any act of depravity upon a male.

    Dealing with Misandry

    Misandry is a world wide problem. Those who practice misandry abuse men, women, and children. These purveyors of hate do not support the right of all people to live safely and free of false accusations. They do not care about the damage they cause. They want to exercise their personal power and influence over others.

    Most people are not aware of what is happening in our courts. So, become informed about gender and accusatorial preference in our courts. Take note of this behavior and discuss it with others.

    The greatest danger is that judges, prosecutors, and others possess immunities that protect them from criminal prosecution and civil liability for their public crimes and civil torts. These persons are not subject to public scrutiny and accountability.

    Change the law and provide reparations, restitution, and redress for those who have been wronged. Outlaw immunity. Demand punishment of any public official or other person who has lied or used coercive or oppressive measures to, or in an attempt to, imprison, or distress another. Demand changes in the law that removes the statutes of limitations for these crimes.

    Misandry, misogyny, and accusatorial preferences have no place in our society. We cannot have equality and opportunity when gender preference is so prevalent in our justice courts.

    fix this mr dunne…fix these issues

  17. ford says:

    i think most men will agree that when wifey has some input…if hubby dont follow up…no swallow up

  18. Scrap_The_CSa says:

    Dunne has been an associate minister of revenue since the days of the Lobour Goverment.

    The review he has been conducting of child tax is a review by officals.

    Too little too late.

    Regards Scrap

  19. John Dutchie says:

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……The statement below I take with a big ‘Grain of salt’….!!!!

    Just my humble opinion …Yes,to a certain degree I do concur…But,and here is the big ‘But’…..
    With most Kiwi Woman, as you,as in the Man or Father…. have the ‘Yes dear,anything you say dear’ type of attitude you are sweet and dandy….
    If you stop been submissive and subservient to them, and have a ‘Will’ of your own…..Then watch the ‘S@#t hit the Fan’

    ‘Contrary to various ‘gender wars’ theories, the vast majority of women actually like the men in their lives and care for them and want the best for them.’

    Kind regards John Dutchie

  20. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Ford

    Brilliantly said ….

    Kind regards John Dutchie

  21. gwallan says:

    Actually Nik, I’d suggest it’s a merely another example of blaming the victim. We’re allowed to do that with men you see.

    Note that in todays world a woman can do anything at all and no matter how vile everyone will be looking for some reason external to her as to why.

    Do whatever you like to men. If they get angry at their violation it proves they are worthy of that violation and more. If they cry they’re not real men. If they speak up at all they are obviously haters of women. “What did he do to make her do it” works at the broad level as well as the individual level.

    So be a good little boy, sit still, be quiet and hope that somebody notices how poorly you’ve been treated AND that they could give a damn.

  22. Gerry says:

    Peter Dunne runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds. What else is a skunk to do? When he puts his money where his mouth is, then I will listen to him. Until then, it is other end that is doing the talking.

  23. Vince says:

    Yes..this also true because my sister, now 65, speaks of abuse from her grandfather, but in reality ,in her case, it is an obsession on ‘virginity’ and she gets all family female nubiles to ride horses..as an antidote to boys. Yet her daughter is a nympho..I ask you? Are bitches actually bitches? Women are definitely weird. Perhaps Wiccans and Witches even.

  24. Vince says:

    Ford admit your anger..it is allowed

  25. Rosie says:

    I read Peter Dunnes speech the other day and I was angry.
    I was angry about the way he has allowed men to be treated for years and now he comes out with dribble like this.
    I cry when one of my pets die even if it is only a hen but if one certain woman, who has been aided and abeted by Peter Dunnes ruthless regime and has tryed to destroy two lives, was to die tomorrow, I’d breathe a sigh of relief.
    But I guess I’m like some of these angry men who has got mental health problems too

  26. Vince says:

    John..submissiveness and subserviece is the practical reality of dominace and submission. Times have changed..Democracy and equality also went out the window when femminism joined the fray.

  27. Vince says:

    Maybe the convicted was actually guilty?..maybe
    you have more detail?

  28. Vince says:

    Sorry Ford..i read you stuff below..ignore me

  29. Vince says:

    A long list of truths!!

  30. Vince says:

    Rosie..anger is a mental health issue..apparently..but probably only for men

  31. ford says:

    i dont need to admit it…its visible for all to see…i know where im at and my sdtate of mind…attitudes etc…anger is very much at the fore

  32. Vince says:

    It seems that I cant reply to your reply so I will reply to my own..and presume you will read it.

    In my opinion we are all victims of this new form of sexist engineering. The world has changed. The old idea of patriarchal dominance has given way to the new matriarchal dominance. As males we are all the victims of that.

    But if you look wider at our primate cousins, you will find chimpanzee and bonobo’s. There lies the answer. you have to look to find.

  33. SicKofNZ says:

    Vince says: The old idea of patriarchal dominance has given way to the new matriarchal dominance. As males we are all the victims of that.
    But if you look wider at our primate cousins…

    Patriarchal dominance is an invention of hideous lesbians with mental issues. Evolution is unproven scientific guesswork with all of the characteristics of a conspiracy theory. Matriarchal dominance is very real though and is, in part, the result of believing the previous two assertions to be fact, when they’re not.

  34. Vince says:

    Now I will reply to my own reply..simply because I am a pathetic male human animal.

    Me and my kind used to be the dominant kind, but these days we are not. That is a truth. Like it or not.

    We invented technologies like washing machines and cell phones that gave our women the power and opportunity to have time and space to control us. Yes..we where dumb to do that. But we did anyway because we wanted through some perverted freak of history to do that. As dumb cunts we actually did that.

    Now we pay the price.

  35. Vince says:

    The jews in isreal are conducting their own form of racial hatred onto palestinians. Get real. IS_REAL really real?

  36. Vince says:

    If you bring the israeli zionist thing into this convo then you will find the source of all the matriarchal bullshit that drives the christian world into the the feminnist conundrum..go ahead..i am waiting

  37. Alastair says:

    Study history a bit Vince. There is no and neverhas been a state called Palestine. The term Palestinians was manufactured about 1948. The land they claim was originally occupied by the lost tribe of Dan.

    If your next door neighbour kept hurling stones at your place injuring your children and breaking a few windows, then you also would undertake massive retaliation. Until those arabs originally from Sameria, (Read the Bible on this issue) accept this, there will never be peace.

  38. SicKofNZ says:

    I agree with you that many Israelis are extremely racist against Palestinians. They appear to play the victim whilst in reality are the abuser. There is much to connect them with modern feminism which explains their similar behaviours. (I say many Israelis because there are groups of Israelis that protest the treatment of Palestinians)
    The Jews that I mention lived in the late 1930’s. The Nazi Regime and Hitler are a strong hint of the time frame meant by me.

  39. Alastair says:

    Remember that today there are two groups of Judiasm, the Messianic, who believe Jesus is the messaiah and the orthorox who still follow the pharasee’s, They are very different!

  40. Vince says:

    Again.. I cant reply to your posts..only to my own..

    My point is not as to whether Israel is right or wrong..merely to that the jewish idea is the original source of matriarchal power. I goes back a long time

  41. Vince says:

    Jesus was gay..thats ok by me

  42. Alastair says:

    Study the Traditional Jewish Family. Everone knew who they were and What Yhwh expected them to be!

    Sorry I can’t alter fact!

    Hire the DVD of Fiddler on the roof, the song “Tradition” sets it all out well. In point of Fact the whole DVD is scriptually well founded.

  43. Vince says:

    SickofNZ..I hope you read this.

    I suggested that you look wider to the primate origins of this issue..if you want to. I don’t know how to ask you to do that without appearing stupid. I, my self am only an ape stabbing at a keyboard. Yet I am human.

    Look at the origins of humanity for answers, not the stupid humans we have here now..

  44. SicKofNZ says:

    Hi Vince, I did read your post. I may just be one of those stupid humans we have here now because I’m not sure that I understand what you’re trying to communicate to me sorry mate.

  45. Vince says:

    Jews are a bunch of racist people who believe in there own superiority..wrong..

  46. Vince says:

    In fact religion is the biggest bunch of bullshit that exists on the earth

  47. Vince says:

    SicKofNZ..

    All i am saying is that if you look at the genetic origins of humanity you will find our closest cousins, Chimpanzee and Bonobo’s..Two opposing societal structures, one patriarchal, and the other matriarchal. I personally have concluded that humans are a synthesis of these two, and that what we experience today is a movement between that capability. Its a radical idea, and folk will think you a wanker for believing it, but evidence rules

  48. Vince says:

    Patriarchal dominance is an invention of chimpamzees..not humans..in fact many animal species..but always there is the female lurking there to take the ultimate power.wanna fuck

  49. ford says:

    vince…i understand you completely…the missing link?…the forgotten child?…a book on the progress of primates compared to man

  50. Alastair says:

    Watching a program on TV about building Mega Structures – They prefer women to operate their cranes. They keep their cool better when things go wrong! (It’s true!)

  51. Skeptik says:

    Hi Rosie,
    Although anger is an uncomfortable emotion, I’m glad to hear it’s what you experience thinking about how men in NZ are treated. I wish many more women there felt exactly the same way and it then became the drive for action to provide equal rights for NZ men.

  52. gwallan says:

    @Alastair…

    I’m not surprised. It’s only men who will die if they fuck up.

  53. Paul says:

    To Vince.

    After your comment on religion I think it would be impossible for you to present an itellectual arguement when it’s clear that your intellect is on par with your so called primates

  54. I was at the event. Wonderful to see a bunch of guys get together that really care about what is happening for men. Men and separation were a persistent theme and a major focus during the suicide part of the event.

    And overall I was impressed that the group was acknowledging the damage that some men do but inclusive of the path that brought them there.

    As for Peter Dunne, I thought him sincere and intelligent in his presentation of the issues. I don’t think any champion for a cause is going to be perfect but he did pretty well.

    It would be great to have a range of events like this so the whole story would be played out but I’m glad we had a first go at it, and the group seemed keen to get together again.

  55. Hans Laven says:

    To Paul.

    Vince has already presented sound intellectual arguments. He expressed his opinion on religion strongly but there it no need to become personally insulting just because you don’t like someone’s opinion.

  56. Hans Laven says:

    There is so much evidence supporting the existence of evolution as a process affecting life that it really is no longer a theory. However, it does not answer any ultimate questions.

  57. Scrap_The_CSa says:

    To Hans

    Jesus was gay hardly weighs in as a sound intellectual argument.

    Regards

    Scrap

  58. Hans Laven says:

    Peter Dunne’s speech showed more respect for men’s issues than anything else that has left 99% of NZ politicians’ lips in recent decades. Unfortunately, he makes his living by appearing sincere yet we still await any action at all from him that might demonstrate any real concern for men and fathers. In 2001 he gave a speech at an opening of Union of Fathers and promised to make a difference for fathers then, as well as spouting on about family values.

    So far Peter Dunne has given us:
    – the right for the NZ gambling industry to run internet gambling so that government could get more tax; when interviewed about the damage this could do to NZ families Dunne refused to answer and became aggressive towards the radio interviewer;
    – arrest at borders of men who are in arrears regarding their father-exploitation tax;
    – an ability for the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to initiate administrative reviews where IRD thinks more father-exploitation tax can be extracted than is currently being taken, and to make retrospective departures from the current formula in order to charge fathers more for years gone by.
    – propaganda such as “if the (father-exploitation) payments aren’t being made, then the children are suffering”, even though well over half of arrears in father-exploitation tax are the vicious late payment penalties, and a good proportion of the remaining arrears are for children who have grown up and are no longer dependent on either parent, so most father-exploitation arrears collected will simply grace government coffers;
    – reference to absent fathers as “deadbeat dads” whereas in fact most family break-ups are cause by mummy’s decision, not dad’s. Also, most separated fathers who do not take a major part in rearing their children have been restricted from doing so by mothers and/or state machinery such as the Family Court and CYFS. Further, mothers liable for so-called child support are less likely to pay than are fathers on average. That Dunne would use the term “Deadbeat Dads” when it suits him to appeal to a feminist parliament shows what a chameleon he is.
    – Support for relationship property legislation so that it now allows women to plunder men’s pre-existing assets whether the couple ever made a marriage commitment or not, and that now allows women to claim significantly more than 50% of a man’s pre-existing assets on various grounds including some right not to have a major reduction in lifestyle, some right to have an equal lifestyle to her ex even after she leaves him for a new more exiting sexual liaison, some right to be compensated by her ex for claimed lost future income due to her family role, etc.
    – A Families Commission that recognizes no advantage or status for biological families over any other combination of cohabitants, and that has mainly forwarded feminist propaganda to the nation.
    – Not a single incentive to reduce family break-up.

    Who really expects his list to show anything better for men, fathers or families when in a couple of years we look back at last week’s “sincere” speech to the Men’s Health Conference? One thing is certain, he is “sincere” about seeking votes wherever he can.

  59. Paul says:

    I found this statement offensive. Maybe I took it to heart
    a little much and for that I am sorry if it caused you offence Hans. The fact still remains that evolution is a theory and nothing more. Those who state it is a proven fact
    will of course be able to back such a statement up with
    evidence. If this is a networking site for guys to get support then we all need to be tolerant of others views.

  60. Skeptik says:

    Hans,
    Thanks for fleshing out matters regarding Peter Dunne.
    Spot on brother.

  61. Rosie says:

    The eighteen men who have been through the family court in the past year and have died from suicide is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
    I’m sure there are far more men who have taken their own lives because of a Govt’s callous attitude towards men following relationship breakups.
    And what are Govt departments doing about it?
    Well in Dunedin the council has closed off the road to Lawyers Head to try to prevent more people (men) jumping off it.
    They think that band aid solution is going to help.
    Reading some of the Family Court decisions Re-Retrospective departure orders is enough to make your hair curl. The little that some men were left with under the matrimonial property act was later taken off them a few years down the track in the form of child support, until they were left with absolutely nothing.
    The child support system isn’t about creating a harmonious relationship between children and both parents. What it creates is a dysfunctional situation between the custodian and the liable parent.
    In other words, A War

  62. Vince says:

    Hi Paul..I wonder which statement you found offensive, maybe it was one of mine because I introduced the history/religious debate to this topic. Your comment is linked, bulletin board wise, to Hans Laven’s input, but it doesn’t seem to fit that comment.

    Either way, I am speaking as to the origins of female dominance versus male dominance as having its origins in our ancient primate ancestery rather than in any recent events. But this phenomena also has its more recent roots in our religious traditions. Even more recently it has new root in the bullshit known as femminism. And to those ideas I am totally committed.

    I give you the current example of the catholic church and its widespread proliferation around the world. One indisputable fact is that catholicism is based in Rome, and in the head figure of this manipulative organisation is the Pope, who has always been a male. The other interesting fact is that Italian culture, Italy being where Rome is, is strongly matriarchal, and has long been that way. Catholicism spread throughout much of southern Europe and also to England from where many kiwi’s descend, including half of my personal heritage. Even the Anglican church is based on Catholicism, even though it is now protestant.

    Yet catholic priests are required to cut themselves off from the pleasures of female company and as a result have traditionally used young boys to fulfill the gap created by such a sexual sacrifice. Basically abuse, but apparently not so in their minds. The point being that belief overcame the situation and made it acceptable to abuse young boys in this way. In the young boys experience this behavior becomes ‘normal’ and so that culture continues. IMO ‘belief’ is the most dangerous obsession that mankind can entertain.

    That brings me to primates. And of course the same catholic culture would never entertain any idea that we, as human animals, might actually ascend through evolution to the high state of becoming the dominant species on earth. We are ‘apparently’, according to doctrine, the children of god, and not even animals. Apparently, according to doctrine, we where at that pinnacle from the very beginning.

    From a very young age I saw that this religious nonsense was exactly that, nonsense. So therefore you offend me too. At least evolution has evidence that can be corroborated.

    I want to close by saying that recently I met Mr Frans deWaal, who is the foremost primate behavioral expert in the world, on his recent lecture visit to Auckland, and I shook his hand. At least he agrees with me, as I do with him. No belief required, just simply observation.

    Google “Frans deWaal” if you want, but I suspect you won’t because you fear what you might find.

  63. Vince says:

    Alistair, so Israel should still be called ‘DansLand’.. Hey Alistair, I actually support Isreael in it’s right to self defense, but hey, religion makes people want to expand because they believe in their own propaganda so strongly.

    Its belief and propaganda I oppose, not any specific one. We have our own, as Kiwi’s.

  64. Vince says:

    Yes Paul..you are right, I do personally align my thinking with the Chimpanzee and Bonobo because it is they who are our our our closest ancestral cousins and it is they who can teach us the truth about human greed and all that flows from that. Religion simply has no meaning for me.

  65. Vince says:

    And of course the Chimps are patriarchal and I observe that behavior everyday, in male humans. The Bonobo’s are matriarchal, and that what we are experiencing right now in terms of the women who do the kinds of things that this forum discusses. I also observe that everyday.

    So why am I so wrong?

    Perhaps I am not. Google ‘Frans deWaal’. I challenge you!!

  66. Skeptik says:

    Rosie,
    We’re on the same page this time.

    Vince,
    I wish you’d stop monkeying around on this thread.

  67. Rosie says:

    Hi Skeptik
    I am like most women in NZ who never understood the way men were treated until I saw what happened to my husband.
    The way he has been treated by his ex wife and the IRD is nothing but deplorable.
    I guess other women will have to experience what I’ve seen him go through for them to speak out and demand that men be treated ‘humanely’
    It would be a criminal offence to treat a dog the way IRD has treated him
    Now he has just found out that his ex wife has been granted a departure order because my income was taken into consideration (I earned all of $18,000)
    Not only that, I have been removed from his liveable allowance.
    So in reality I’m not his wife but my income from not being his wife is in actual fact paying his child support, because his income for the past year doesn’t even add up to a single person’s liveable allowance.
    And they wonder why so many men in NZ are dying from suicide?

  68. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Rosie

    Rosie,I am really sorry to hear the bad news…With no disrespect to you…I am sure you will get some good advice on here, on how to counter act this appalling situation you and your husband are in…Thank you for standing by your Husband…Kudos to you Rosie

    But something for you to ponder on Rosie,and please show what I said on here, to your Kiwi female friends….. Kiwi Woman wonder why there is a so called ‘Man’ drought,no there isn’t one really, I have noticed last year and this year a lot of decent good Kiwi Guys from different age groups are shunning more and more away from Kiwi Woman and forming relationships with foreign Woman…’Tongue in cheek’ Gee,I am so stupid, I wonder why that is…..Could someone please explain that to me??????

    ….Hello.!!…Wakey.!!!..Wakey.!!!!..Again as I have said this before, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work it out….

    All the best to you, and your Husband Rosie…and stay strong and fight this injustice with all your might…Kind regards John Dutchie……

  69. Rosie says:

    PS
    My husband’s ex wife is the renowned ‘hussy’ who feminists in NZ look up to.She is the one who became a nominated person on his IRD files without his knowledge shortly before she planned to leave him and then went on to ‘double dipping’ her CS payments with the blessing of an IRD review officer.
    When I met him in 2005 his confidence was at an all time zero and without my love and support, I’ve no doubt that he would now be one of the family court or IRD’s tragic suicide statistics

  70. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Rosie,

    What was the justification for removing you from the living allowance.

    Scrap

  71. John Dutchie says:

    Reply to Rosie

    ….I hope Katy and Karen are reading these posts from Rosie….So Karen, do I sound to ‘negative’ now……?????…And you then wonder why Karen, I am going to leave New Zealand permanently…Have a long hard think on this statement Karen…..
    And don’t you dare Karen, say ‘Oh well just accept and be shafted by this ‘Evil’ Kiwi Feminism crap..!!!…That,over my dead body will I never ever accept, submit or be submissive too……I would rather died on my feet, then live on my knees……

    Kind regards John Dutchie

    Kind regards John Dutchie

  72. Rosie says:

    Hi John
    At times it’s hard to remain strong. When we left Dunedin two years ago to get away from this abusive woman,from her abusive text messages to the pain she was causes us, my stress levels were so high that I was was having panic attacks when I was driving my car on motorways. I got to the stage where I was becoming afraid to drive to work anymore.Sounds stupid I know.But trying to explain that to the IRD would have gone in one ear and out the other because all they are concerned about is the penalties that they gain from unpaid CS payments.I guess many men will have had similar symptoms to me and I guess many of them are now dead? And do you think the IRD gives a toss? I doubt it

  73. Rosie says:

    My husband told the review officer that I was so stressed out with admin reviews year after year and that I’d had enough and was leaving. But even tho she removed me from the living allowance she still took into account and based her decision on my income for the past year.
    Her exact words were…taking into account….school costs along with the other party’s wife’s income,I am satisfied it is just and equitable to allow a departure

  74. Vince says:

    Point taken Skeptic..I will go back to my tree.

  75. Larry says:

    Palestine is not the land of the so-called ‘jews’. Their homeland is in the Khazar region in Russia. Another connection to feminism other than the matriarchy is that it was a communist goal to use feminism to destroy the West. Research Russian history since the 1917 criminal takover and you can see it was a Jewish government that brought communism to the Goy.

  76. Vince says:

    Yes..Russian jews are migrating as we speak to whatever the land is now called..palestine or isreal..it matters not to me…when the human/african came through there, 30,000 years ago it may have had more trees, but it most certainly did not have jews or arabs.

  77. Vince says:

    What is the ‘goy’?

  78. Alastair says:

    Larry, please read the bible!

    The Jews from Russia were helped in their decision to return to Israel by a guy Named Hitler!

  79. SicKofNZ says:

    Your information is spot on Larry. Many people have been fooled by the Khazar/Ashkenazi Jews. They assimilated the title of Jew to gain entitlements….. like the Holy Land and pretending to have God’s favour. There’s no relationship between them and the biblical Jews whatsoever. They do an excellent job of keeping the truth from Joe Public while they cause problems such as feminism, scheme 9/11 terrorist acts, sell stolen US nuclear secrets to Pakistan, Nth Korea & Iran and then want to war on them all and have had their finger in every major conflict out there.

  80. Larry says:

    Vince, The Goy or Goyam is a name given to the non-Jews.

    The Jewish Religion: Its Influence Today by Elizabeth Dilling
    http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/

    Why is the Talmud kept so unknown to non-Jews? Why was there no usable English
    translation of the Talmud until the Soncino Edition, 1934-48? Why, in European history, when
    the laws of the Talmud became commonly known, was it burned over and over by order of the
    Popes, excoriated by Martin Luther, denounced everywhere, and its followers exiled from one
    country after another down through the centuries?
    The Talmud’s basic law is that only the Pharisee Jew ranks as a man, or human being. All
    others rank as animals, “the people who are like an ass – slaves who are considered the property
    of the master.” The attitude resulting from such teachings has been resented by non-Jews in all
    countries and centuries. Such resentment, however, is always portrayed by Jews as “persecution
    of the Jews.”

    Other related links copied below. This is something that we should know more about and openly discuss.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66zOgVAnIgE&feature=related

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/truth-history-and-integrity-by-gilad-atzmon.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGYNg6abWIc

    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm

    http://knud.eriksen.adr.dk/

    http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5367

  81. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    So you where removed from the livining allowance because you where seen, by the Child Tax Police (CTP) as supporting yourself before you met him and that you remain self supporting? Do they mention any case law in the review decision?

    Regards

    Scrap

  82. Hans Laven says:

    I draw attention also to the fact that Peter Dunne, who heads some government panel on reducing suicide, refused to receive or to have anything to do with the male suicide petition that was presented to (Annette King I think?) at parliament last Friday. There’s the actions of a sincere man.

  83. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Hans,

    Are you suprised? Peter Dunne-Nothing is only interested in making sure his pension is secure.

    Regards

    Scrap

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