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Sun 18th June 2017

Finding my Child

Filed under: Child Support,Gender Politics,General,Law & Courts — Had_Enough @ 11:30 am

Hi,

The mother of my child took her out of NZ 3 years ago against my will but the Courts allowed it so there was nothing I could do. She was 15 at the time but is now 18. I had very little contact with her while she was overseas because her mother gave a false addresses and refused to allow me to speak with her when I called on the phone and eventually moved so phone contact wasn’t possible. I was able to figure out what Canadian school she was attending and built up a good rapport with her teachers and was given access to her school portal. A couple of months ago her headmaster informed me that she had left the school and he was told she had gone back to NZ. Her mother isn’t mentally well and, although never formally diagnosed, I believe she has borderline personality disorder and is highly paranoid and unstable. My concern is that I don’t know where my daughter is and have no way of knowing if she’s OK or not. IRD won’t tell me which I find a bit annoying because they are quite happy to continue deducting one quarter of my take home pay each month because my daughter is allegedly still at school and thus still qualifies for child support. I was wondering if there’s a Govt agency or process such as the Official Information Act that would give me information on my daughter’s whereabouts. I would appreciate any info on this. Thanks guys.

Regards
Had_Enough

85 Responses to “Finding my Child”

  1. golfa says:

    Hire a Private Detective.

  2. Had_Enough says:

    Thanks Golfa but I’m not in that sort of income bracket unfortunately

  3. golfa says:

    I doubt it will cost very much. They have access to all sorts of resources. probably wouldn’t even have to leave their office to find out the information you require. One more thing, if she’s back in NZ with your daughter who is 18 (and old enough to vote) your ex and your daughter should be on the voting roll with their address.

  4. Downunder says:

    You wouldn’t be the only father with a child over 18 trying to escape child support terrorism.

  5. Had_Enough says:

    Yeah Downunder, it’s an absolute farce really. I’ve given up the fight to have my child support liability stopped because the law is so lax that she only has to be enrolled in a school, doesn’t even have to be attending. You just can’t fight that but I would at the very least like to know where my daughter lives so I can try and open up the lines of communication again. Golfa you may have a point about the electoral role and private detective. I’ll look into that but the mother is so paranoid I doubt that she will be on the roll.

  6. Downunder says:

    You said “my child” but that’s not her name.

    Is their a problem with fathers who wish to contact lost children, listing that person’s full name on this site?

  7. Had_Enough says:

    I am happy to reveal names privately but not on this site. She has quite an usual name and her mother is highly paranoid and virtually lives on the Internet under various aliases. The contents of these threads are highly searchable thanks to Google so I don’t want to reveal to my daughters mother any tips and tricks I might pick up through here which might help me find my daughter, for example; the electoral roll. More importantly, I don’t feel that its in my daughters best interests to have her personal details made public through this site without her permission.Like I mentioned, this site is very searchable.

  8. MurrayBacon says:

    Well, I’ll be a bloody axe murderer. [Murray Bacon when I’m at home.]
    I suggest that every person uses their own common sense, to protect their children, ex-wife and self.
    It seems that it is harder putting the genie back into a bottle, than letting it go. I guess this is no surprise to any parent who has had their own child, spirited out of NZ, outside of the protection of the law?
    “Downunder” gives us a good example.
    When people can sensibly give their name, I believe that their words can have a lot more credibility. But that is not the issue in this particular situation.
    The thieves up a bench respect parents a lot more, when they speak and write sensibly in public. They take this out with threats, that lie outside the law. That lie in every sense. For all of the spitting and hissing from on high, in my opinion these parents are less oppressed in the dark places of the familycaught$.
    So use your own judgement and where possible gain from the experience of other people, that you trust.

  9. martin says:

    @5 If you spell out her name like m a r t 1 n then it is not searchable. I only say this because you either want help or not. You need to balance up between privacy and your need for help.

  10. Had_Enough says:

    Well I’m not completely anonymous Murray, you know exactly who I am as do a number of other people on this site. I just don’t think I will find my daughter by publishing her name on here however if there is a site out there that helps parents connect with their kids I would be more than happy to publish my details, and her details on that. I appreciate the tip Martin.

  11. MurrayBacon says:

    Be careful and wise!

  12. Had_Enough says:

    The part that pisses me off the most is that my daughter is on the one hand treated like an adult because I no longer have the right to know where she lives. However she is also treated like a minor because I am expected to pay child support for her. Personally I believe that custodial parents who block child access to non custodial parents should get their CS stopped regardless of the age of the child. It’s not about the money, it’s about children growing up without their dad for no good reason and this has been going on for 16 years now.

  13. Downunder says:

    There’s an added difficulty in that when a child becomes aware of the conflict, to an extent that they did not previously understand, they can abadone both parents.

    You’re daughter returning to New Zealand may be here for that reason.

    In the personal life of this father it took 20 years for a daughter to recover sufficiently to be able to meet her father once, and even then it was probably only because her daughter’s school project asked some difficult questions.

  14. voices back from the bush says:

    I guess you’ve thought of all this but if she has returned to NZ, was she or the mother involved in any clubs or groups of friends or sports or church or anything that you think they’d almost certainly reacquaint with. maybe family members of your ex. It must be frustrating that your daughters back in the country but no contact, just horrible.

  15. Downunder says:

    @8 maaaate … I WAS joking about the loose axe head.

  16. martin says:

    Man if I thought this site was that dangerous I would publish my ex wife’s details – Megan Speller 43 Fox Street, Wellington – but alas there is no god.

  17. Downunder says:

    I’d publish mine too, but she became a CYF Bitch and I don’t want people to blame me for that.

    God knows what she’s done to any other poor bastard that crossed her path. I even had to write to the Minister to have her cease and desist with the written dictates on CYFs letterheads.

  18. voices back from the bush says:

    Id love to publish the name and photo of the woman who assaulted me in 2014, plus the evidence and the accusations subsequent.

  19. martin says:

    @17 Now that is ironic! My main point here is two-hold; while I respect Had_enough’s choices etc,we kind of have a double standard – my name was plastered all over the district court notice boards in Wellington last week courtesy of my ex, and yet I am expected to protect her anonymity and secondly I don’t expect my publishing of her details to bring any harm upon her – after all I’m the one that she has to fear allegedly, nobody else.

  20. voices back from the bush says:

    16, lets see if yours gets deleted..

  21. martin says:

    Had-Enough, good luck with your search – the others are right, these days it shouldn’t bee too hard to locate a teenager with the amount of web-based content out there.

  22. martin says:

    @20 – which rule would I have broken?

  23. voices back from the bush says:

    22, I’m not sure but If its still there tomorrow I’m posting too. good work.

  24. martin says:

    Maybe I should create a new site called wall of shame or something of the same 🙂

  25. Downunder says:

    @had_enough you may want to consider the commission of a crime in another country affecting the financial wellbeing of a person in another Commonwealth Country.

  26. martin says:

    Downunder you’ve lost me on that one – happy for you to elaborate?

  27. Had_Enough says:

    I’ve been on this site for many years now and have yet to come across a regular poster who I would have any concerns about re confidentiality. My concern is that the entire connected population of planet earth, and quite possibly aliens on yet to be discovered worlds, can read what is posted on here. The mother of my children goes out of her way to be a victim, has taken entire govt depts to Court to get a protection order against them previously, and would love nothing more than to see me defame her in public so she can waste yet more of my time with frivolous court cases. She’s seriously disturbed and naming her or my child on here would play right into her hands. Hearing that my daughter may be back in NZ gave me some hope that I may eventually see her again but due to the reclusive paranoid nature of her mother I have some work to do to find her. I am sure that she will eventually contact me but she’s currently in a co dependent relationship with a very sick mother who spends her entire unemployed life putting me down in front of my daughter. I also believe that the mental state of the mother puts my daughter at risk and her strange world view has alienated her from both sides of the family. This makes her more likely to act out violently which isn’t a good situation for my daughter to be in. They can shove their white ribbon campaign up their arse. This woman was always the perpetrator but that’s cool because she’s a woman after all. I frequently had to stand between her and my kids to stop her assaulting them and I stupidly thought that if I left home the kids would follow. Well 2 of them did follow but it was my daughter who needed me most and she’s still stuck with her! The judge said she was too young to make her own decision. Never mind the bruises!!

  28. Downunder says:

    Given the unknown you may express your concerns to the police, to make sure she is safe in NZ.

    Regarding Canada – intentially failing to advise the administration of another country to gain a financial advantage within the country you live must be a crime in that jurisdiction, whereas it would only be a civil dispute within a jurisdiction?

    That’s my thinking.

  29. Had_Enough says:

    Well I managed to find out what school she was attending in Canada by contacting their equivalent to CYF who already had a file on her after only 3 months in Canada. The Canadian education, health and Child Protection Services were infinitely more helpful than their NZ equivalents but she gave everyone, including her school, her brothers address not her address so I had no way of contacting my daughter. I believe she returned to NZ because the Canadian authorities were wise to her fraudulent behaviour and were most likely about to take action.

  30. voices back from the bush says:

    27, After a tangle with a woman that has borderline personality disorder I totally understand your being extremely cautious. They are just so unpredictable and dangerous.
    I hope something gives and you see your daughter soon.

  31. Paul Catton says:

    Contact me.
    Paul Catton.
    021 221 9192.

  32. DJ Ward says:

    My ex has an address.
    The Feminist Republic of New Zealand.
    Misandry City.
    666 Going to Hell Street.

  33. Had_Enough says:

    Thanks Paul, I will phone you later today

  34. Evan Myers says:

    @had_enough LinkedIn?

  35. Buster says:

    Good man Paul Damn we are so fearful it shits me to tears but if you don’t step out of your comfort zone how you going to succeed

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdZIdg4dDLc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X56Vf5po3yw

    I couldn’t give a rats ass who sees this therefore, if telling you the truth gets you punished so be it! Family Court hate ME but there is nothing they can do.

    By the Way we are currently searching or wanting to hear from any fathers who have had problems with the Bias JUDGE DAVID BURNS , If anyone has any information on him please let me know . This guy has been taken to the High Court 5 times ( that we know of) and lost every one. He is not married, no children, lives with his mum so that spells and smells like a you know what. We want him taken off the bench as he strikes fathers by denying them contact . Please ask around as his is very dangerous.

  36. Downunder says:

    David Burns has no children

    I heard him give evidence as a counsel for child about being a father himself.

  37. Downunder says:

    UOF encountered Burns prior to him being a judge, he happily admitted that was his ambition. I’ve written in the past about describing a theological/ideology concept of Feminism, but there are a number of people on this site who through their own ideological position can’t abide with this.

    BURNS, from what we heard him say, holds a belief, something along the lines of all women are one God on Earth: he describes this in the view of the court: that their minds are (or the mind is) the legal entity, as opposed to men’s minds not having the same status.

    My view of him, was that he considers the men of the court: the superior males, whose role is, to protect any of all women, whose minds are equal within the law and whose children are theirs and theirs alone.

    If you can get your head around that, you might be able to understand the warped decisions he is producing.

    There is an added conflict for the High Court in that it is a descendant of ‘the testaments’ which translates into divine law.

    When we view his decisions we do so on the basis of our historical upbringing, and our world view, and see him as a silly person, whereas the High Court more likely views him as a self-engratiating ideologue having a go.

    The end analysis is what is more important, that he in the court is using the lives of real people, to play out HIS ideological conquest.

  38. Evan Myers says:

    I read somewhere – I’m sure it was on this site – as I recall, attributed to that Bacon Bones chap:

    Let’s give the Family Court an honest shadow

  39. Downunder says:

    This might be what you’re referring to here:

    Comment

    http://menz.org.nz/2007/dad-still-on-the-run/

  40. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Downunder,

    I would like to understand what you mean:

    UOF encountered Burns prior to him being a judge, he happily admitted that was his ambition. I’ve written in the past about describing a theological/ideology concept of Feminism, but there are a number of people on this site who through their own ideological position can’t abide with this.

    In my opinion, human factors about the role of being a judge are not acknowledged or discussed, let alone managed properly. If we can address that, then I am keen to do anything that would improve the performance of judges, acting in accordance with common sense, ethics and legislation. I am sure it should be easy, using the right incentives and complaints systems.
    Also, I am curious about your comment – some people on this site?

  41. hornet says:

    had enough, mate what can I say. Like me, you have NOT Given up on your child, and that is to be commended.

    If we read the introduction pages of MENZ, and learn the how why and by who established MENZ – we can all see we still have the same battle on our hands.

    From 1995 is the first mission statement written in the first MENZ newsletter.

    Our Mission:

    ‘To recognise and respect men’s issues and needs, and to provide support resources.’

    ‘Alienation is one of the faces of modern masculinity. The cure is communication and community – a sense of togetherness. By opening up to each other we reduce the pressure of being alone and exiled.’ Malidoma Some.

    I find it very disturbing , that after 22 years we still face the EXACT same concern – the exact same CAUSE of CONFLICT = PARENTAL ALIENATION.

    And yet parental Alienation is in direct breach of NZ Human Rights legislation, Alienation is in direct contravention of United nations articles on the care and protection of children, Alienation is in direct contravention of UN Human Rights treaties. Alienation goes against the Care of Children legislation in NZ, where the BEST INTERESTS of the CHILD are supposed to be a PRIORITY.

    I have evidence now directly where the Government agencies actively and deliberately denied me time with my child, and where these same government agencies deliberately allowed the child to be HARMED – even in the face of direct evidence by Child psychologists who identified SEVERE HARM to the CHILD as a direct result of PARENTAL ALIENATION – and the NZ Government and its Judiciary did NOTHING to PROTECT the CHILD. NOTHING.

    Rather NZ government agencies encouraged and permitted provocation – trying hard to get me react in anger, tried hard to get me to react violently and be labelled a domestic violence offender, tried to entrap me on criminal charges, tried to character assassinate me, surveilled my home, took my wife’s car unlawfully, and have NEVER ever PROTECTED the CHILD from HARM.

    We have a legacy left over in this country from Colonization where the Crown used and still uses the law to destroy and control fathers especially and parents in general. By removing fathers, they create vulnerable children that need the HELP of Government in the future.

    Those working in the legal professions and the domestic violence industry DO NOT WANT this to STOP….its their bread and butter. Domestic Violence and enabling this at every turn, keeps this corrupted system in business. They care NOT about the harm they cause to PARENTS or CHILDREN in the pursuit of PROFIT.

    So after 22 years WHY have we never seen any justice in NZ? Why have ILLEGAL and UNLAWFUL actions been permitted to continue in NZ unchecked?

    I currently have a damages claim against the NZ REVENUE / Family court system for a total $14 million in damages – more $$$$ to be added as this gains momentum and I need the help of you all to take this to completion.

    I filed Affidavits of TRUTH before the revenue system and sought their rebuttal on oath, – they have been unable to rebut my truth on oath – the have been unable or refused to invalidate my truth as to what they did to me, my child and my family.

    My un rebutted Affidavits now stand as Truth in Commerce again the NZ Revenue service and as a result I have sent an Invoice to them for Damages – as a direct result of their cause of action – due directly to the harm they caused my child, my family and to the destruction they caused to my business career and ability to earn income.

    I am anticipating the need for high court action to force payment of this invoice, and or to initiate liens on property to force payment.

    to that end I need the help of every parent who has at some time been impacted by this unlawful, and illegal process, which refuses on all levels to protect children and or parents from harm.

  42. Evan Myers says:

    Help me out here, I’m confused.

    The NZ Government and its Judiciary

    In the Westminster model of responsible government, I understand the Judiciary, like the Church, to be separate entities, but in the case of the Family Court, it would be the Judiciary of The State.

  43. MurrayBacon says:

    They are as independent as the communications between them are open for public inspection.
    The proof lies in the exceptions!!!

    http://menz.org.nz/menz-issues/june-july-2001/
    http://menz.org.nz/menz-issues/june-july-2001/#Judge
    http://menz.org.nz/News%20archive/mahonysssc.pdf

    If you get a few laughs, then these clowns and thieves have given some value, for their salaries. It could be better than that.

  44. MurrayBacon says:

    We have the written report that Mahony gave to the Committee. But no record, I believe, of discussion or examination.
    Ther is another similar example of not open to public meetings between judges and politicians. But I cannot recall the details…..

  45. Downunder says:

    You may recall a High Court decision during the Clark Ministry that declared the Family Court to be an independent specialist court, and for a period they refused to hear appeals.

    True, to whoever said it, “This will bastardise the law.” … It did.

  46. Downunder says:

    Finding my child is the title, but as Hornet points out, we are not talking about the lost child but the alienated child.

    When a child is lost, we have instant concern, and a search begins immediately. This father finds little help most of time, and what help he does receive, others give often in fear of offending the law or with irreverence to it.

    The child is not lost but in another place, from which they may or may not return. In that time a father may fear the worst, and grieve the loss of the living, something not comparable to, but worse than the separation from the mother – otherwise perhaps a relief if not a preliminary wound.

    Should you find this person, only then may the fear against which you have been so stoic, be realised: that your child is in fact lost – lost in a place from which they will never return. You are left at the mercy of their grief, and the consequences of their pain.

    To know this person, becomes their choice, and you may find what you get back, is nothing more than the bitterness and hatred of the foul female who does not deserve the designation or recognition of a mother.

    Destructive reproduction dwells in home of the bitch, and is sanctioned by the House of the Bitch

  47. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Downunder,
    your observations are pretty correct.
    Women get more opportunities to alienate children from fathers, than men from the mothers.
    But I am horrified to observe that when men get the opportunity, they take it as often as women do, give or take a bit.
    I used to like to think that men are better in that respect, but I have had it rammed down my throat that men are just as “bad”. Look at parental abduction statistics….
    In my opinion, if the familycaught$ sensibly applied the incentives that are at their disposal, these problems would reduce, rather than build and build.
    But that would not be in the paramount paramount financial interests of the legal workers……. There is paramount and there is paramount paramount. The latter don’t need to even appear in legislation, to control what judges do in secret familycaught$.
    A search through this website for Jaydon brings out one such story. The father spent huge money, guaranteeing that his voice would never be heard. Wasn’t what he wanted, but he wasn’t astute enough to pick up on what was going on. He trusted the legal workers.
    There are many such stories.
    Mothers too are ruthlessly taken advantage of, if they cannot hide their wealth.
    The people who protect their children most effectively, protect themselves and don’t much trust legal workers. Be pragmatic. Paradoxically, you have to take not nice risks with your children, to get for them the best long term protection from familycaught$. Certainly it should not be like this.
    Thank doG for drugs.

  48. Evan Myers says:

    Dear Mr Bacon

    You spend too much time making soup.

    In war we do our best not to leave the casualties at the mercy of the enemy.

    In Feminism, civilian casualties are an essential and acceptable part of survival, one beyond what we would dare to find acceptable in any other war.

    I’d put it to you, that you have become blind to the realities of peace.

  49. DJ Ward says:

    The realities of peace?
    At least we can choose to have baked beans or soup.
    One could sharpen their axe previous to cutting open the can or slicing the vegetables.
    When the battle is around custody their is a winner and loser.
    Along with people making money from the contest.
    Drastic failures often revolve around demonising the person who responded badly to what happened.
    Never exposing or properly examining the process that created the response in the first place.
    Answer is to get rid of the contest
    50:50 Care that is virtually certain, removes a large income stream from lawyers.
    Then again with the females refusing to hand over the children they could make a fortune in those fights?
    Peace when it requires a contest or fight to have it. Democracy?
    Negotiation might be better.

  50. Had_Enough says:

    In my case the process of alienation started slowly but gradually increased over the years. First there was the occasional time when she wouldn’t allow an access visit for some made up reason, like my daughter had a cold or was feeling stressed or whatever. Then the access visits were regularly blocked and the FC wouldn’t enforce their own parenting orders. Then she made sure my daughter never answered the phone and funnily enough my daughter never wanted to talk to me on the phone when her mother answered. Then the FC allowed the mother to take her to Canada knowing that the already toothless parenting order would lose all validity as soon as she left the country. At this point the alienation was complete and my daughter just accepted that she didn’t have a father in her life. There are cynics who would say; why doesn’t she just reach out to you over the Internet via social media or email? These people don’t understand the power a very mentally unwell mother has over a child. They stoop to depths that most mothers wouldn’t even consider; tell lies about the father, say that he left because he didn’t want kids, tells her that I don’t pay child support which is why they are poor (it’s me who is poor because of child support). Tell the same lie often enough and children believe it. I won’t give up though because I was brought up by a solo mother. She told me what a bad parson my father was. I heard that right through childhood and adolescence. Then, when I was well into my 20’s I got to know my father and found out that what I had been told about him was mostly lies. My sisters drew the same conclusion and now resent my mother for misleading them all their lives. My dad died quite young but I am so glad I had that time with him. That’s what keeps me going, knowing that I have to remain strong so one day my daughter will understand the truth and how much I love her. It’s very hard to explain to those who haven’t lived through this just how hard it is to get any justice. If I turned up at her house when she was denying me an access visit she’d get a non trespass order even though I have never harmed the mother and never would no matter how much damage she’s done. The FC is a disgrace and don’t enforce their own mandates. No political parties in NZ are interested in helping because they’re far too concerned with women’s issues, men are the problem after-all, aren’t we.

  51. Buster says:

    Thanks for the response guys, and if anybody knows of any cases made against him or other websites I would be most grateful he is seriously dangerous and a dictator. I will post any up here I find.

  52. Buster says:

    JUDGE DAVID BURNS

  53. Evan Myers says:

    SYRIA-Life-options menu

    grass soup

    NZ-Life-options menu

    soup
    baked beans

  54. Downunder says:

    @53 I guess that’s open to interpretation? It looks like your glass half full swings between realism and pessimism.

    Looking forward – who knows, but looking back this is the discussion 2 years ago.

    http://menz.org.nz/2015/interesting-article-on-equal-shared-care/

  55. Downunder says:

    http://www.districtcourts.govt.nz/assets/unsecure/2016-09-08/2016-NZFC-4703-Ernest-McCabe-v-Teresa-Acardi-McCabe.pdf

    This is more likely the reality of shared parenting. While distance may be seen as the devil in this case, the human element is still very much the problem.

  56. Evan Myers says:

    @55 it reads something like a divorce case from early last century – the financially independent male, with the house and the children giving the unwanted mother the boot, but the genders reversed.

    That’s probably the limit of shared parenting within the scope of Feminism, however that would make men virtually dependant on a court that views the male one step below her handbag.

  57. Hornet says:

    Alienation.

    Are we prepared to collate a list or database of all the fathers who have been deliberately and intentionally alienated from their children?

    In my case I complied with every demand, every order, every counselling, every mediation, every psychological test. I resisted the urge to react to provocation, I have no criminal convictions, no concerns which would prohibit me from being a parent to my child. I obtained lawful court orders to have time with my child only to then see that they will never be enforced, not by cyfs, not by the police, and not by the very courts who issue them. The police refuse to prosecute the mother for breaches of court orders which is a crime and the police refused to arrest and charge a lawyer for child who perverted the course of justice, who lied to the courts and withheld evidence.

    I have recently tabled a valid $$ damages claim against the NZ government for $ 14.5 million dollars for lost income, severe harm to my child caused by parental alienation which they facilitated and encouraged, and for the harm to my family by way of unreasonable search and seizure, unlawful surveillance, attempts to entrap me on criminal charges and attempted character assassination.

    I am now seeking additional witnesses and evidence of same. If you have been deliberately alienated from your child please make contact with me by email through the web administrator who knows who I am.

    The only way to tackle this serious and insidious concern is to gather in numbers with evidence.

  58. Hornet says:

    50….. Had enough……I understand fully how you feel. A good friend of mine once said losing his son to alienation was like going through a death.

    I have many friends …..fathers mostly all now married or living with good women who both understand the travesty and abuse being perpetuated on children and good parents by a few who are profiting from this harm.

    It can not continue and it will change ……..get in touch with me and add your name to the growing list of good people.

  59. triassic says:

    #50 The enclosed link is to a doco on child alienation at the extreme. If one can rape a young step-child and then involve them in disposing of their own mother, it really illustrates how powerful mind control with bullshit can go.

    doco

  60. age old crock of shit says:

    The important thing to remember is that;

    The courts
    The people who work there
    The police
    The psychologists
    The feather beder (council for the child)
    Your basic lawyer
    A sector of education

    All realise that with the decent natural father gone the children will often end up using the aforementioned resource throughout their lives as they go off the rails and are most likely abused by “the 50 times more likely to abuse than the natural father – mummies new boyfriend”. This may also invoke mental health. Mummy may well be able to be used by those so called protected species and has been.

    It becomes logical for people to question ‘why this goes on and does not change”?

    Always follow the money and power line and it becomes obvious.

  61. Downunder says:

    @59 I don’t view alienation as mind control. I accept that to some degree an alienated child will behave according to another person’s wishes or instructions during the process.

    Beyond that the process develops a past. As human beings it is an integral part of us to be intrinsically linked to that past. To give that away would establish a void that our minds would struggle to cope with.

    This sets up a choice to either block out completely or rationalize that past.

    Then I see alienation being qualified in at least two ways.

    A) a fight over ownership or possession which causes a withdrawal and absence from one parent. This reflects in some comments that others make, along the lines: hang in there, your child will come back to you, mine did.

    B) where you have a transfered purpose The purpose of one parent to ‘alienate the father’ from the child, through the child, is to give that child a purpose in life that becomes their past. Then we get a different range of comments from men who if they do meet the child again, find a very different situation to deal with, along with, a range of behaviours, that can vary from total rejection, to reinforcement of their position, to learned manipulation – buy my love if you want it.

    The difficulty on this site, is that fathers in either situation don’t appreciate the other’s, which is somewhat contrary to the concept of helping each other.

    We need to be careful to not establish a scenario of one succeeded where the other failed and one failed where the other succeeded.

    If we’re not careful in managing this we risk presenting a picture that the worst cases of situation B, are the father’s fault and not the consequence of an aggressive and sick mother.

    Further to that we then fail to recognise and identify the adult consequences for the seriously alienated child.

    There is no will in Feminist Society to behave as we normally would – to investigate and learn from the worst case, so we can a) stop this happening, and b) mitigate the damage caused.

    It’s hard enough to explain the depth of this to yourself if you’ve been unfortunate enough to be subjected to its totality, let alone to someone else, that cannot accept that a women, let alone a mother, would behave this way toward a child.

    You can see what I’m talking about actively reflected on this site, when you have comments from Murray Bacon, along the lines of how given the opportunity, a father is equally quick to alienate the child. An assumption based on the father’s removal of the child from the mother, and in this case linking a step father to the process, albeit with good intent.

  62. Evan Myers says:

    @60 I’m not sure you have completely explained the confusion.

    Having a criminal intent prior to the alienation of mother, rather than the intention to alienate the child from the other parent.

  63. hornet says:

    Anyone out there deliberately deprived of time with their child?
    Anyone out there deliberately MISLEAD by Government Agencies?

    We see the word MISLEAD coming up in Parliament – as Ministers have been caught MISLEADING the house under OATH.

    MISLEADING – is akin to PERJURY.

    to be Delusive; calculated to lead astray or to lead into error. Instructions which are of such a nature as to be misunderstood by the jury, or to give them a wrong impression, are said to be “misleading.”

    Law Dictionary: What is MISLEADING? definition of MISLEADING (Black’s Law Dictionary)

    To MISLEAD cause (someone) to have a wrong idea or impression.
    “the government misled the public about the road’s environmental impact”
    synonyms: deceive, delude, take in, lie to, fool, hoodwink, lead astray, throw off the scent, send on a wild goose chase, put on the wrong track, pull the wool over someone’s eyes, pull someone’s leg, misguide, misdirect, misinform, give wrong information to.

    It appears the only time politicians are held to account – is when they are caught MISLEADING – the House on Oath.

    Our family were MISLEAD – DELIBERATELY by Child Support as we agreed to a process of resolution – which they withdrew without notice, before seeking Ex parte, Under urgency non notified warrants to take family property – including my wifes personal property – which had to be returned.

    When I complained about their actions – our home came under surveillance, there were attempts to entrap me on criminal charges and attempts to character assassinate me by way of false accusation.

    They have been CAUGHT – and now have NO EQUITY in the court as a direct result of their own CAUSE OF ACTION which has caused distress and harm to all concerned.

    On that basis they are now liable for DAMAGES.

  64. Downunder says:

    @61 the transfer of purpose

    In one case it is to conceal the crime against the child.

    What we’re taking about is to conceal, a crime against the father – within the child.

  65. Evan Myers says:

    @62 Debt Collection on behalf of the Crown?

    That Constitutional Monarch has become a Right Royal Bitch, eh.

  66. Evan Myers says:

    @60 to investigate and learn from the worse case

    RNZ is giving a good commentary on the inquest into the death of Christie Marceau.

    If you’re following this you might draw some interesting conclusions about our failures around the alienated father.

    And his dead or dying child.

  67. age old crock of shit says:

    This is a known situation.
    Ok Or Decent father goes, gives up, gets a dealing to in every way possible and potentially has to move on to preserve himself is a typical Court path for fathers.

    THIS IS KNOWN – YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST.
    Known are the statistics for children where the OK and Decent natural father is not there to help, guide, protect those children. “mummies new intimate partner” (is that an Ammie Adams description)is FIFTY times more likely to abuse the children than their natural father.

    Why not help and encourage Ok and Decent Natural Fathers?

    Because once the child has no OK pr Decent natural father he/she is vulnerable as a child, teenager, adult and will likely be involved with Judges,Lawyers,Police the state throughout their life. Thus they potentially have a level of existence and use/abuse for the benefit of the aforementioned who perpetuate their existence as a result.

    This is a known situation – remember that!

  68. Downunder says:

    @triassic Thinking further about the doco above.

    If this wasn’t an adult-child situation but two adults, wouldn’t we be talking cult.

    Abandon your family and accept my regime of existence, but it is so extreme, because he cannot encourage an adult to accept the proposal, he makes use of the vulnerability of a child.

    If we look at that as the transfer of purpose rather than centering on alienation from the mother (and the father, where is the father in this?).

    We might then view this stepfather and an alienating mother requiring the endoctrinated to worship their desires.

    Do you think that is the way we should approach this?

  69. martin says:

    Hornet @57, I’ve been alienated from the children by their mother, which may not be of interest to you? It could be argued that the FC has allowed this to happened and has ignored it despite evidence to the contrary. Do we need to chat?

  70. Buster says:

    Jesus Hornet! you had a rough time of it, sorry to hear that, and I couldn’t agree more. My son about to turn 14 wants to go before a Judge and they are trying everything to deny him that right and his mother’s new best word is psychological abuse as referred by David Burns (Judge dropkick) along with others). Another hearing this week. Goes on and on eh!

  71. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Downunder,
    I didn’t say that fathers are quick to alienate children from the father, I was discussing how often they do it, as seen in international abduction statistics.
    Also, the example of alienation that shows up in international abduction statistics is only for the extreme case of total deprivation of a relationship, whereas the largest number of alienations occur within the country. Unfortunately, there are no statistics available that detail alienation of children in familycaught$, so I cannot quote these!
    In that situation, I would guess (as you say) that the women that alienate, do it more quickly than fathers. This is as you suggest. I would guess that father international abductions typically occur after some time, where the father has seen the mother’s alienation building up, has seen the active support of “judges” for these behaviours and then decided that there is no alternative to unilateral action.

    Some information about the impacts of international abduction of children is given in the book and documentary listed in this link.
    Downunder, I wasn’t clear what you meant?

    You can see what I’m talking about actively reflected on this site, when you have comments from Murray Bacon, along the lines of how given the opportunity, a father is equally quick to alienate the child. An assumption based on the father’s removal of the child from the mother, and in this case linking a step father to the process, albeit with good intent.

    I wasn’t discussing stepfathers?

  72. Downunder says:

    @69 That was a reference to that comment discussing #59

  73. MurrayBacon says:

    Thanks very much!

  74. Downunder says:

    That comment, not your comment!

  75. Jerry says:

    Murray Bacon @69; I see you often quoting statistics – and it seems that you trust/believe statistics. I never do believe statistics because I have seen first hand how filters are applied to the collection of data upon which statistics are generated. I also know of too many men who give up at the first sign of trouble and just disappear to start anew rather than to go through endless trouble and heartache supported by sex biased authorities.
    I admit it stuns me that you have so much confidence in officially supplied stats.

  76. MurrayBacon says:

    You are dead right.
    It always pays to check NZ statistics against international data. As far as international abductions, the only corroboration is by counting the cases in the book Taken In Contempt.
    In the post above, Downunder discusses gathering data ourselves. The Perverse Effects of Child Support
    International statistics may not be comparable, due to being gathered against different definitions. They may be categorised under different standards of proof. Some cases may be deliberately hidden from the data gatherers eg NZ familycaught$.
    I suggest that rather than just gathering “stories”, that we encourage people to keep entire legal files, in good condition. It does take some degree of care and often cost, to reliably store files. Paper files are subject to roof leaks destroying them. They can grow mould and become unuseable. They may be thrown out by accident. They may be destroyed by fire. In frustration, sometimes people burn them.
    In time, it will become much cheaper to scan through old files and check automatically for breaches of rules and legislation. The results will not be in time to help the particular children or parents.
    But in time, this will sway the path of judicial systems. I have read analyses regarding the USA Supreme Court Appeals, that are now 30 years old. familycaught$ cases are more difficult to analyse, but these software are coming fairly soon…..
    A few reputations will be in tatters, the rest destroyed.
    Lies, damned lies and statistics?

  77. Evan Myers says:

    Dear Mr Bacon.

    That soup is getting thicker.

    You make stories sound like a dirty word. While they may amount to lies in the nursery, they are accounts of real life – in essence the foundation of statistics, and quite possibly more reliable than the butchered research of academics.

  78. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Even, you are making my comments into black and white……

  79. MurrayBacon says:

    It is hard to foresee what use the file might be put to.
    Therefore it is difficult to know what to keep and what to throw away.
    If you have a clear and reliable target, you might throw away irrelevant material. (Good lawyers tend to keep everything, even the envelopes that letters arrived in, except for cash payments.) It is very hard to predict what is essential, or helpful or not needed.
    A story will probably contribute a clearer picture of why things took place and people’s reactions, than the legal file.
    So the two are likely to both contribute value, if in fact any value is ever obtained.
    If you don’t want to put in any effort or cost, you are clear that no value will ever be achieved. Then you can throw the file away! You will know that nothing can be obtained from it.
    If you decide to keep your file, have a thought for also protecting any items of important physical evidence.
    Your choice or Hobson’s choice?

  80. Evan Myers says:

    @76 I would suggest you are the engineer of your own discredit, Mr Bacon.

    I am sure you will agree the maxims of law are more likely attributed to a collection of comparitive stories than a few complete files.

  81. Jerry says:

    Murray Bacon; I went to NZ First campaign launch today. Winston Peters quotes statistics. He sounded great, but I walked out soon after he was alluding to immigrants coming into NZ – Perters said they should fit in with our communities, recognise and obey our laws and treat every other person as their equal. So-far-so-good BUT then he added “Including women!” He got great applause for this hypocritical twist. He was on about “one law for all”, but then if you are female – you are a special case. I have no doubt that he can draw on stats from most countries on earth to support him. It might be that academically peer reviewed studies are more reliable, but it does not suit the politics to admit they even exist.
    Recently I posted about the Dunedin Longitudinal study. It was cited as authoritative and dependable as regards child-obesity. But it also gives the incidence of family violence by gender – and of course that is considered rubbish in NZ. There was an example of how statistics are cheery-picked for the political agenda of the moment.

  82. Downunder says:

    @79 Winston has played that card before, if you remember those campaign signs:

    A Man for a Change

    He might be master of the middle of the stick against each end, but if you asked the woman who gave him his start in politics, Dame Whina Cooper, she’d be kicking his arse to touch about now.

  83. Hornet says:

    67 and 68. Yes I want to hear from you both please…..this is exactly what I want to add to my evidence. I was directly,alienated by the mother ably assisted by the crowns agents ….the lawyer for child who lied to the courts, suppressed the psychological reports as to the harm caused to the child… perverting the course of justice and deliberately withheld evidence……the police refused to prosecute the lawyer….or the mother…..we see this more often these days as those in power are protected by the police…..our laws are NOT being applied equally to all.

    Let me be clear…. The court appointed psychologist determine the severe harm to the child as a direct result of the mothers alienation and her breaching court orders…and the family court and child support BOTH ignored these concerns…….they have never protected the child as they are required to in accordance with the care and protection act and the human rights act……..they were more interested in revenue and profit…….

    Text or call me on 021 996715. No longer a secret since they monitor everything and know who I am.

  84. MurrayBacon says:

    If you speak with any experienced, competent researcher, they will tell you that social statistics are subject to major problems and need to be interpreted with as much knowledge as possible about how they were gathered and the likely errors embedded within them. Researchers who show great confidence in social statistics, are showing their lack of experience and lack of wisdom.

    It was cited as authoritative and dependable as regards child-obesity. But it also gives the incidence of family violence by gender – and of course that is considered rubbish in NZ. There was an example of how statistics are cheery-picked for the political agenda of the moment.

    Professor Ferguson is pragmatic and humble, in my opinion. He portrays the outcomes of their studies with the correct amount of confidence. Problems do arise when other people cherry pick…..
    All of these considerations show that yes, we should be collecting and conserving stories, data, evidence and legal files.
    It is said that the winner gets to write history.
    Leaving aside winners and losers, men’s history should be assembled and written outside of the control of government organisations and women’s organisations. There are many histories and too many are getting lost, day by day.
    The “outlier” stories are socially the most important to not lose. But the harsh realities of everyday life ensure that the chances of these stories being collected and told accurately and sensitively are low. These stories are physically at the highest risk of being thrown out or destroyed by accidents. But these are the very stories that our society most needs to protect and keep available.
    If we deny the future being able to access many of these stories, chances are that our society will keep falling into the same or similar holes.
    Secrecy destroys good life for everyone, even the thieves among us.

    ….she’d be kicking his arse to touch about now.

    Thanks. Sometimes, too often, it is only the humour that can keep me going…

  85. Ministry of Men's Affairs says:

    This post appears to have fallen victim to a spam filter, so I repost it here:

    From ‘age old crock of shit’:

    This is a known situation.
    Ok Or Decent father goes, gives up, gets a dealing to in every way possible and potentially has to move on to preserve himself is a typical Court path for fathers.

    THIS IS KNOWN – YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST.
    Known are the statistics for children where the OK and Decent natural father is not there to help, guide, protect those children. “mummies new intimate partner” (is that an Ammie Adams description)is FIFTY times more likely to abuse the children than their natural father.

    Why not help and encourage Ok and Decent Natural Fathers?

    Because once the child has no OK pr Decent natural father he/she is vulnerable as a child, teenager, adult and will likely be involved with Judges,Lawyers,Police the state throughout their life. Thus they potentially have a level of existence and use/abuse for the benefit of the aforementioned who perpetuate their existence as a result.

    This is a known situation – remember that!

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