MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Where is the balance?

Filed under: General — Julie @ 10:56 am Fri 21st July 2006

A shared parenting bill was presented to parliament in year 2000. Many people supported the bill yet it did not get the chance to go through all channels to make a new important law.
Many people took to public areas to support the change. In fact alot of people got together to express concerns for the rights of children regarding fathers, meetings were being held everywhere to gain support and the journalists spread the word through media.

Today and back then alot of people in parliament and those who work behind the scenes in law, research departments, etc agree that the Guardianship Act and Custody Act are old and out of date to today’s society.
Fathers are not just finance earners, not to their women that want time with them nor to their chidren that rely on good loving and caring parenting from them.

However it is not on the agenda to be considered as the chipping of dog’s was. Not because it is not important but because there is no-one putting it forward. Now, there is alot of research going on regarding chidren because we have a chidren’s commision with money and there is alot of family research going on because we have a commission for families with money. Neither of these groups can find a fault with children being raised by single parents, by different ethnic groups or by rich or poor. Children grow up to be the best and the worst they can be in all environments.

On top of this we have a women’s commission that puts all womens issues forward and gathers research and makes solutions because they also have alot of government money available to them.

What we don’t have is a Men’s commission. We have no government money being used to research males issues or finding a way to help males in health, schools, to be fathers or just to be male.

An unusual yet not suprising comment I got the other day was, “We will never work out what women want because women themselves don’t know what they want.” (Credibility definately on this comment) Where has the world gone wrong? You cannot give people what they want because they have to earn that but you give people what they need. That is a lesson all will learn and as parents we know that.

What is it that we need? We need the basics for survival and after that we need balance. Balance in our own lives and balance in our society. We need balance of dads input to balance of mums imput, we need balance in relationships and we need balance in law. Every other thing we need as human beings come from balance. Balance to care for youself and balance to care for others. Balance to physical, emotional and spiritual needs. All necessary.

You males must have equal rights as women have else I and you are off balance in our lives. My sons need balance between the females they grow up with. Women are born to be foxes and we are so good at manipulation. But giving into our manipulation is destroying us because there is no balance. We are becoming our worst enemy and society is giving us what we want instead of what we need. We think we are doing the right thing yet because males don’t have the same rights we win. Then we think that was justice because we won in other’s eyes (law etc) but it is not till we have learn’t by our mistakes that we realise we were wrong.

Males are suffering because of the lack of balance in their lives form the outside influences. It is OK to say that we all have lessons in life and that is how we grow to be better people but when our whole society and the whole world is off balance no one is a winner.

Not even the greatest of survivors.


  1. Thanks for the posting Julie.
    It makes a lot of sense to me.
    Congratulations on being one of the very rare nz women who has crossed the rubicon and made the humanistic paradigm shift of recognizing male humanity – AND THEN STARTED TO TAKE ACTION.

    Ive been perpetually pissed off and perplexed at how every other group apart from men in nz has a commission to advocate for it which uses our hard earned tax money to further those group’s interests. You’re right to point out how nz males are perenially overlooked.

    As a social worker/counsellor over many years and to this day in nz I have seen massive numbers of males fall through the cracks – prison, addiction, disease, alienation, lack of role models.

    Some have argued with me that with so many male parliamentarians there is already a defacto Men’s Commission.
    I say to those proponents – bullshit!
    I see too many male politicians stuck in some version of an ivory tower to be effective in advocating for men. Too many are also into buying the bleating female vote and hence perpetuating feminist pork politics too.

    I see the fact reamins that at governmental level nobody is charged specifically with the responsibility of studying, collating data and advocating policy specifically designed to meet the needs of males in nz.
    Of course you’ll get social policy wonks saying that they do tally up men’s data and provide a voice for males.
    But there isn’t the co-ordinated commission approach that is given to women, youth, Maori and Pacific Island, disability.
    It’s all fragmented, interdepartmental defended turf to boot.

    Males are the alienated ones who society has spurned and uses as disposable. (Can’t put a premium on the lives of those you may one day want to sacrifice to save your territory).

    The big elephant rationalisation sitting in the corner is that men only have themselves to blame.
    Men need to get organised, they’re too busy protecting turf, infighting, building thier empires etc.
    All true to a certain extent.
    However, I can only say that daily life in nz over 2 decades has amounted to being slighted for being male in minor and major ways in every setting I can think of – work, social, political, entertainment.
    The psychological assault has been HUGE.
    The relief I feel no longer living thier is palpable and tremendous.
    I’ll admit it – I can’t hack it.
    I don’t want to hack it.
    My life feels enormously more sane being at a distance from it.
    So I no longer live there.
    I do however have grave concerns for nz males. Our sons, my mates, men in general.
    From funding disaparity to media demonising.
    From worshipping stoic All Black hardmen to scraping pieces of hoons off the tarmac.
    From everything’s OK – we’re alright Jack politicos to 300,000 fatherless kids.
    From legions of gloating DPB queens and the carnage of abortion on demand to a barren childless Prime Minister. From the secretive brothel called the ‘family’ court to the illegality of DNA paternity testing.
    From the cultural anomie to drug epidemic.

    Morally repugnant.

    Life isn’t a bed of roses here either.
    I gave up on seeking perfection in human affairs long ago.
    But this is one piece of human capital nz lost.
    Sadly I’ve reached the conclusion that
    it doesn’t deserve to have me there.
    Not now anyway.

    Male pride see.

    Rave over.

    Comment by Stephen — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 12:18 pm

  2. Recalling the attempt to pass a shared parenting bill back in 2000 raises some interesting points for me.

    At that time I did not pay much attention to parenting issues, and had only the vaguest awareness that there were moves afoot to change the law. Confession time: I only became really concerned about family law issues after becoming directly affected by them. Although I am a little ashamed to admit this, I think useful lessons can be drawn, because I am probably not the only father who’s naivety about family law has been dispelled only by being smacked in the face by it.

    If more equal shared parenting is going to become a reality somehow all those people who are currently not affected by the issue will have to be drawn into some kind of involvement. As far as I can tell from recent history, all campaigns that have successfully changed our law and society in a fundamental way (eg, homosexual law reform, stopping springbok tours, treaty of Waitangi matters) have been able to gather a reasonably broad consensus of support across society. Large numbers of people have become emotionally involved enough to sign petitions and go on marches.

    I don’t’ know exactly how to bring widespread emotional involvement to the issue of shared equal parenting. I do know that these days it is the only thing that matters to me. I also know that back in the days when I was only dimly aware of the campaign for shared parenting I was turned off it because it seemed associated with the ACT party and like a lot of kiwis, I was deeply suspicious of ACT.

    I believe that the shared parenting campaign continues to suffer from a widespread perception that it is a concern only of right-wing or conservative groups, and this may be one reason why the 2000 campaign failed. I would like to see a widespread understanding grow, that shared equal parenting concerns all new Zealanders, no matter what part of the political and social spectrum they come from. It’s the only way that change will occur.

    Comment by PaulM — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 12:52 pm

  3. The present NZ government has twice refused to ratify the United Nations Doha Declaration on the Family . It was a very important UN declaration that states nations are to TREAT MOTHERS AND FATHERS AS EQUAL PARENTS .
    Easy to see where the problem sits -eh Miss Clark oops red hot news National Radio Boshier says police to issue “on the spot protection orders” so it takes the pressure of judges -lol – supreme court 17 cases since it started – yawn ..yawn …there is no balance in feminazi land ..!!! God help the kiwi Father !!!!
    in solidarity -dad4justice

    Comment by Peter Burns — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 3:39 pm

  4. Hi Paul,

    If more equal shared parenting is going to become a reality somehow all those people who are currently not affected by the issue will have to be drawn into some kind of involvement. As far as I can tell from recent history, all campaigns that have successfully changed our law and society in a fundamental way (eg, homosexual law reform, stopping springbok tours, treaty of Waitangi matters) have been able to gather a reasonably broad consensus of support across society. Large numbers of people have become emotionally involved enough to sign petitions and go on marches.

    In order to get other people involved in widespread support you need to act and think in a reasonable manner and ‘sell the idea effectively’ to the public, to people who may not be directly affected by the current status quo. I don’t think that many of the things actively promoted on this site such as intimidating FC lawyers outside their homes, revealing intimate details of personal lives currently sub judicae and defaming people will achieve that.

    It’s a long way from personal pain to public policy, takes years of work and dedication and a complete change in attitude.

    The plight of men has been adequately promoted recently, with Celia Lashlie’s work on boys and repeated articles on how boys are performing relative to girls.

    If you want to create something that is appealing to large numbers of people then you have to present yourselves well. There is too much raw and unresolved anger on this site for any constructive progress to be made. I know it is unfair to say that on this thread, but most threads here are closed to all but the poster’s often extreme opinions.

    Comment by New Zeal — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 4:30 pm

  5. The plight of men has been adequately promoted recently, with Celia Lashlie’s work on boys and repeated articles on how boys are performing relative to girls.

    How do maitain that lashlie is adequately promoting the plight of men?

    Im not looking for a fight! Im just curious as to how one ex womens prison service employee can be seen to be adequately promoting mens plight.

    Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 4:37 pm

  6. Hi New Zeal,

    Do you know what I like best about you? It is your hunger for knowledge.
    I also like Celia Lashlie’s work and her books. She is real. But the fact is that you and I can make a book today or tomorrow and just like hers it still means shit. She is someone trying to make a point and yet just a teaspoon digging at a mountain.

    It is never going to be worth more unless we all get together. Numbers is what counts.

    Comment by julie — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 4:43 pm

  7. I point to something positive that is being done for males and you shoot it down.

    There are lots of commentators pointing out the plight of men. John Tamihere is one recent example. It’s not as if it is being ignored. I just think that the energy has to be focused right for anything to happen. Number One priority: It has to be POSITIVE.

    Comment by New Zeal — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 5:04 pm

  8. Can I suggest that someone in Wellington get a LARGE group of fathers to support Wayne Pruden by presenting themselves quietly in front of parliament next Wednesday when he presents his petition . Weather permitting they could be there with prams and their children. Media should be present and a big turnout will reinforce the point Wayne is making. Use the media if need be to put the word out for other fathers to attend. The pram is such an excellent passive symbol for concerned fathers. It will invoke emotion in the masses I am sure.

    Comment by triassic — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 7:03 pm

  9. That would certainly make a good impression, but how much motivation is there here to do something like that?

    Comment by New Zeal — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 7:14 pm

  10. Yes, I support Triassic point. New Zeal you’re a cynical chain and ball around everyone you come into coversation with. Skepticism is good, yet you never yield in deconstructing everything, like you did to Paul above yet again. Stop tryng to work your deconstructive game playing and go support Wayne. That will undo all your sophistry to date, and maybe you will have some new insights, instead of the old cafe revolutionary deconstructionism you use like a broken record (just like those Frenchmen who took it up to be fashionable posers at the cafes).

    Comment by Intrepid — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 7:57 pm

  11. my daughter was taken away from by the courts. I did not even have a hearing.. My ex partner put down a false name and a judgement was made.. I wasnt even there I never had my say. Now I have a protection oder over my daugther. Now I cannot see my daughter. According to the courts it was over emotional abuse. Well that is what my ex said. She told me that she wanted a baby and that she would have one by the time she was 35… it was a conn… I have dairies of her threating to commit suicide.. of her drinking problems and eating problems… I never had the oppertuntity to present these… instead the courts judged me under a false name that she had said… Is this justice !! it is bullshit that the courts can put on a father

    Comment by paul — Fri 21st July 2006 @ 8:13 pm

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