MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

The Fashioning of Men’s Minds

Filed under: General — Rob Case @ 5:14 pm Mon 20th August 2007

A no-holds-barred critique of the methods used by women, mothers in particular, to shape a man’s thoughts and behaviour. Recognise any of it? (Originally posted here)

This is The Rude Guy. The Medicine Man of Men’s issues. The audio antidote, to the mass Shaming of Men.

On earlier shows I talked about how our country is run by feminized men. Men who are winsome and charming and tricky and changeable. Men with no detectable moral center. Duplicitous men who lie and deceive. George W Bushes and Bill Clintons and Karl Roves and Dick Cheneys. How the hell did this happen? How did the worst possible species of men, the most feminized men, the LEAST honest men, become the most successful men?

And how come so many of our young men join gangs. What do they get out of that? Protection? Honor? Sense of belonging? What?

Here’s an email that just floated into the inbox, on the same topic.

Thanks for another great podcast. I think it is extremely important for us to have a unique voice, uncensored by the mainstream media? I am thankful every time I listen to one – thankful that other people understand what is really happening in our society.The feminization of our media has created a pseudo-reality, where men are portrayed as tools for women. This has had a huge effect on men in general, who I think have become beaten down by the persistent brow-beating from the media.
I wanna make a donation to keep the show going.

Regards, Adam M.

Once again we’ve popped the top on a huge topic – What’s happening with men? – and we cannot cover it on one show. But I’m gonna turn over the mic to Rich Zubaty, and let him read to you from his book: What Men Know That Women Don’t, to try and get some answers about this.


[start Zubaty]

What Men Know That Women Don’t: page 111

Says Ruth Benedict in Patterns of Culture:
Those who function inadequately in any society are not those with certain fixed ‘abnormal’ traits, but may well be those whose responses have received no support in the institutions of their culture. The weakness of these aberrants is in great measure illusory. It springs, not from the fact that they are lacking the necessary vigor, but that they are individuals whose native responses are not reaffirmed by society. They are alienated from an impossible world.

Who, these days, affirms the right of men to be men? The institutions of our time are vicious, emasculating, feminized, structures. That includes government, corporations, schools and media.

Janet Saltzman Chafetz has some opinions about how we came to inhabit a society run by feminized men.

Says Chafetz:
Female babies learn to do things by copying mom. Given the relative absence of male figures during his waking hours, the male toddler is hard-pressed to find out what he is supposed to do.Dick must identify with a cultural definition of masculinity that he pieces together from peers, media, and a series of ‘don’ts’ from his parents. Dick has to make the mental effort to comprehend what he is supposed to be . Males develop greater problem-solving abilities because of this early mental exercise. Moreover they become more concerned with internalized moral standards than females, who rely more on the opinions of others. [unquote]

It is surely a significant observation that boys develop internalized moral standards more readily than girls. I’m glad it was a woman, describing the process of being raised by women, who came up with this one. Absence of the father, incomprehensible complexities from the mother, drive the young man out onto the ball field to make sense out of life. Fish swim and boys play games. On the playing field he is away from mom’s manipulations. If he does something good his mates cheer, if he does something stupid they yell at him. To the extent that boys listen to their peers more than they listen to their dads every American boy is responsible for reinventing society. It is an awesome responsibility – a rudderless ship. The ones who find a higher meaning make it across the sea of Change. The ones who get stuck in materialism do not.

America expects too much of its boys. According to poet Robert Bly, the love unit most damaged by the Industrial Revolution is the father-son bond. Fathers are the ones with the Spirit, the ones who dispense a vision of HOW to live – not what you are going to be when you grow up – that’s mom. And fathers are the ones who through job commitments and divorce and feminized education are being ruthlessly excised from the family unit.

The school used to mean the church, the temple, the mosque. Boys went to school to learn how to read the holy language so they could read the holy book so they could learn how to live the values revered in their culture. School was where boys went to learn how to be men from men.

And what is school like now? School is where boys go to be shamed by women. School is where boys go to learn how to be men, from women, in the absence of God or religion or clear value systems. When I talk about feminization and secularization and materialization of society I am talking about the same thing. These processes are equivalent.

According to Patricia Cayo Sexton in The Feminized Male:
The feminized male, like Kennedy assassins Lee Harvey Oswald and Sirhan Sirhan, are ‘nice’ guys; quiet, controlled, dutiful sons – whose male impulses are suppressed or misshapen by overexposure to feminine norms. Though run at the top by men, schools are essentially feminine institutions from nursery through graduate schools. Women set the standard for adult behavior and favor those who are polite and clean.

And what of the male teachers? Undeniably there are many fine men and there need to be more in a country where 85% of all teachers are white women – but, a man who is less than a man, can be more damaging to boys, than a domineering mother. And the chance of hiring feminized men in schools is fairly high because those eligible and willing are those who made it through a feminized school system in good standing without conflict or failure.

Methods of school instruction require little more than passive receiving and repeating. Learning is passive and feminine. The boy sits, listens, reads, writes, repeats and speaks when spoken to. School bores some boys and feminizes the others. They are rewarded for hewing to female norms. Boys who are boys have a troubled time in school.

Most boys have friends and hang out in groups. Gangs of boys are 300 times more common than gangs of girls. Boys clubs seem to know more about how to educate boys, than teachers, schools, or child study experts. Boys learn by DOing. They solve problems by being ‘in’ them. Boys are united in flocks. It is almost impossible for them to avoid teamwork. Girls seldom get together in groups above four, whereas for boys a group of four is almost useless. [unquote]

Says Jules Henry in Culture Against Men, in boys’ groups the emphasis is on masculine unity; in girls’ cliques the purpose is to shut out other girls.

School is the place where boys go to be shamed by girls. It’s never happened before in history. Schools set boys to competing with girls in subjects like handwriting, where girls have a biological fine-motor advantage. Girls aren’t required to pass baseball, where boys’ visuo-spatial aptitude gives THEM the advantage, but boys have to pass handwriting.

On a Sioux Indian reservation, Says Patricia Cayo Sexton:
The MISconduct condemned by authorities is a badge of honor for the boys. By the time he finishes eighth grade the Sioux Boy has many fine qualities: zest for life, curiosity, pride, physical courage, sensibility to human relationships, experience with the elemental facts of life, and intense group loyalty and integrity – none of which were learned in school. Nor has the school managed to teach any of its values: a narrow and absolute respect for ‘regulations’ and ‘government property’, routine, discipline, diligence. [unquote]

What is the future of these vital human beings? Menial jobs and alcoholism, while women and feminized men plot their grief on computer screens. We are making the American man, and the Native American man, obsolete. We are killing off the very people who led their families across the land bridge from Asia 12,000 years ago, as well as the men who took the ancient Greek ideal of Democracy and made it live again in a New World after 2000 years of dormancy. We have been invaded by the meme [female value] which asserts that the more organized society is the better it is. The better for whom? Women and manholes. Feminized men.

College is the haven of middle class culture and feminized behavior, says Sexton. Boys who survive college are the ones who have been successfully feminized:

Says Patricia Sexton:
A preschool boy grabs toys, attacks others, ignores teacher requests, wastes his time, asks for unnecessary help, laughs, squeals, jumps around excessively, is more tense at rest, stays awake in naps, breaks toys, rushes into danger, and handles sex organs more than girls. [No doubt the periodic onslaught of male hormonal secretions has something to do with this hyperactivity.] The preschool girl is more likely to avoid play, stay near adults, dawdle at meals, suck her thumb, avoid risk, fear high places, refuse to eat, twist her hair, and be jealous. [unquote]

An obvious female bias in the classroom is the meme [female value] that a physical blow is sinful or uncivilized, whereas humiliating people and assaulting them with verbal blows and shame is perfectly OK. Any male would rather be punched than shamed. The punch goes away, the shame doesn’t.

Male suicides outnumber female 70% to 30%. The suicide rates for women and non-white men remain consistently low throughout life.In mental institutions boys outnumber girls 3 to 1.

Considering there are 200 miscarriages of boys to every 100 miscarriages of girls, there are more males brain-injured at birth, and that blindness, deafness and epilepsy are commoner in boys, it is amazing there are any men left at all. Real men are as rare as bald eagles and just as worthy of saving.

Says Sexton:
Schools have feminized boys mainly because society turned education over to women and feminized men after 50,000 years of letting men do it. The ensuing secularization and ignorance of male values is appalling. For instance, girls typically see no dishonor in ‘brown nosing’ and usually even fail to see it for what it is [a military expression for shoving your nose up the captain’s butt crack]. The boy code regards most forms of apple polishing as unmanly. The male code of honor also tends to discourage many forms of cheating and to favor conduct that is open, honest, and above board.Many schools and academies are dehumanizing and unmanly places. Boys who succeed in them often do so by grossly violating many codes of honor and the norms of boy-culture. [unquote]

The Information Age is the Female Age, make no mistake about that. Sorting, counting, organizing information, has always been a female forté. The idea that we are going to live in a society where everyone just spends their day passing information around to everybody else is obscene. Who the hell is going to do anything? How is anything going to get done? Property can be bought and sold without realtors. Disputes can be settled without lawyers. But for paint to appear on a wall someone has to actually pick up a brush. To fix the hole in the roof someone has to get up on the roof. What this country needs to light a fire up its wazoo is a one-week strike by anyone who considers himself a ‘real’ man. That would be more devastating than Hurricane Andrew and the San Francisco Earthquake all rolled up into one. Just one week of real work not getting done. Out with the assholes, up with the men.

And why don’t we do it? Why won’t we men revolt for one week? Because men are addicted to praise.

Esther Vilar in The Manipulated Man Says that the manipulation of men begins when they are born:

Mothers, with some fantasy cut-out in their heads of what boys are like, and suffering from the deficiencies of their husbands, set about to make junior a perfect little man. He is such a ‘good little boy’ when he learns to pee pee inside the round white hole and resists smacking the cat with his toy bulldozer. Mothers love their daughters, but they wax with pride over their sons. They immediately set about trying to make them into everything the husband is not.

The mere fact that a man is accustomed from his earliest years to have women around, to find their presence ‘normal’, their absence ‘abnormal’, tends to make him dependent on women later in life. Dad is a character that comes and goes, but mom is the rock in junior’s life. He learns from her that taking directions from women who act like they know what they are doing is normal. It is almost impossible to underestimate the psychological power of this early social dynamic. A man’s whole notion of security and safety throughout life comes from giving himself to this dependent relationship. Like an imprinted gosling he spends his whole life looking for a certain shape to attach himself to.

We spend our marriages trying to wrest the same affirmation from our wives that we got from our moms, way back when, before we could even ‘think’. Our wives accuse us of trying to get them to mother us and it’s true, we are, that’s how we were trained. I know a phone-sex vendor in Chicago named Valerie Craft who stated unequivocally that her entire business consists in comforting men in the manner of their mothers. Astounding! But not really.

Says Vilar:
One of the most useful factors in conditioning a man is praise. Its effect is better and much more long-lasting than say, sex, as it may be started early and continued throughout a man’s life. Furthermore, if praise is applied in the correct dosage a woman will never need to scold. Any man who is accustomed to a regular and conditional dosage of praise will interpret its absence as displeasure.

Most jilted male lovers and husbands have an explosive mental meltdown at their beloved’s infidelities, which is vastly out of proportion to what they are being deprived of. It feels to them as if they are being torn away from their mother’s bodies, and indeed, that’s just what is going on down deep in their psyches. They are losing the basic unit of security, the emotional lifeline ingrained in them when they were still peeing in their pants. That’s why men rage and want to beat people up when their lovers leave them. That’s why most breakups involve women leaving men rather than men leaving women. Why would a man leave? After years of adolescent drunken degradation and self-abuse he has an hour-glass-shaped praise-giver back in his life again. That’s normal. That’s how it’s supposed to be. That’s what mom showed him.

Says Vilar:
Training by means of praise has the following advantages: it makes the object of praise dependent (in order for praise to be worth something it has to come from a ‘higher’ source, thus the object of praise exalts the praise-giver to a superior level); it creates an addict (without praise he no longer knows whether or not he is worth something – automatic existential shame – and he forgets the ability to identify with himself); praise increases his productivity (it is most effectively meted out not for the same achievements but for increasingly higher ones). Only mothers and wives, not other men or women, dispense the hugs and praise that men so crave. A boy, like a monkey, will repeat the actions that called forth endearments and, if at any time recognition is not granted, he will do everything in his power, bar nothing, to regain it.

He will climb mountains or work in coal mines or eat shit, allowing himself, like a junkie, to be totally shamed. And, says Vilar, the happiness he feels when praise is restored will already have assumed the proportions of an addiction.

Shame, that deep feeling of worthlessness and helplessness, is precisely the result of withheld praise. Regarding my own mother I’ve always referred to it as ‘withdrawal of love’. Even now, 43 years after the fact, she can set off an awful, depressing, manic, physical grinding in my stomach simply by withdrawing her love. Clearly she trained me to respond that way eons ago, before I had any sense of how anything works. In its way, it is sheer brutality. This is the meaning of Jesus’ admonition that we must learn to hate our mother and father if we expect to find God – find inner peace. Dependency training is like teaching a puppy to come on the word ‘go’ and then sending him off on a walk with a total stranger. The entire phenomenon of praise, and shame, and withdrawal of love is a very distorted garbling of signals imprinted in babies’ heads. God says surrender your ego. Mom says hang onto your ego so I can continue to use it to shame you into doing what I want. Who do you want to believe? God or mom?

Men have huge unaddressed issues with their mothers – and they’ll kill themselves with drugs, alcohol and bad marriages rather than confront them. Men always blame the problem on dad – DAD didn’t do this or DAD didn’t do that – but the real problem is mom. Mom is the one who trained you to mistrust dad. Mom is the one who trashed dad to your face – behind dad’s back, while he was gone from the house, working his ass off to support you – so she could bind you more closely to her needy self. Mom is the one who imprinted you with her flawed, ego-driven worldview and her vicarious dreams of success. Mom is the one who controlled you with praise and shame. Mom is the one who resents your wife for usurping her decades- long, praise-dispensing leverage over you. What do football players shout on TV? ‘Hi mom!’ Here I am! Look at me now! I did what you said! See me! Praise me.

Do you wonder why so many more men than women drink and abuse drugs? Here is the substance of addiction. We were strung out on praise early in life and without regular doses of praise we hurt so bad and feel so useless we have to try to kill the pain somehow. Ah, that first glass of beer, that first joint, how it took the pain away!

Responsible older men used to be available to initiate younger men away from this bondage to women. Without the mental breakdown that accompanies initiation men remain enslaved to female praise. It’s a fact, and an outrage. We are letting them rent free space in our heads.

And what do we do for young boys today?

In the Catholic Church we dress them up in gowns like women, and have them eat flat bread. My son, who was bar mitzvahed, got to put on a symbolic hat and read some Hebrew. What we should do is take them out into the woods and splash them with mud and make them kill a chicken with their bare hands – and then tell them the chicken is their MOTHER! Shame on us for allowing our society to become so sanitized, so womanized, that an idea like this seems brutal and without merit. We are all wearing female blinders fixed to our heads with a loving pat from our mothers.

It’s takes men, to turn boys, into men. Men are not born, men are MADE. MADE by the intervention of older men who take them under their wings, and teach them healthy, ethical responsible, male culture.

Problem is, initiation is tough. It’s not wimpy. It’s not a classroom discussion. I offered to put my son through a native American initiation ritual, and my ex wife offered to have me arrested for child abuse if I did. This is the problem. We confuse toughness with cruelty. That’s precisely backwards. It’s the most feminized societies, like Mexico, and Arabia, where healthy male culture has been smashed, that produce the most macho men. The most fucked up men. The men who strut and preen to gain attention. The men who were raised by women, and controlled via Female Praise Addiction.

It’s pretty well known by now that when the U.S. Marines first entered Baghdad, they were polite and considerate of the local people and they were well-received. Then came the Army, shooting anything that moved – they horrified the local population and turned the entire country against us. Marines are not just tough. They are INITIATED men. They know when to shoot and when NOT to shoot. That’s what healthy masculinity is about: knowing when to hold your fire. Something that women and feminized men won’t learn in 20 generations.

I’m gonna talk more about male initiation on another show. But, rather than waiting, you’d be better off to pull out a credit card, go to, and buy the book right now: What Men Know That Women Don’t, by Rich Zubaty. It’s a life changing book. I’ve been told that hundreds of times.

[start Rude Guy]

Or go the and click on the links. You’ll find it there. And email us. So we know we’re not just talking to feminized wimpy ass men. In fact, one of the more exciting emails we got lately was from a 23-year-old female film animator in Los Angeles who thinks that corporations are horrendous, urban living is an automotive nightmare, and feminism is just plain dumb. Really happy to get that email from Catherine B. And Rich just got an offer to buy his Thai Buffalo Girl painting, to keep the show rolling, so things are looking up.

This is The Rude Guy. We’ll be back. Stay strong. Don’t let anybody intimidate you. Don’t let anybody shame you.

No more bullshit. That’s out motto. No more bullshit.

Ahhhhh – feels a little better already.


  1. Gosh, that was long. Yet interesting.

    Before I get into, ‘Yeah right, blame it on the mother’ lol

    Rob, you haven’t given your view on this. Or a link to where we can see people’s opinions.

    Comment by julie — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 5:59 pm

  2. I’ve posted the link to its original source at the head of the posting. (I actually found it in the private net).

    As for my thoughts:

    1) I agree with the comments about boys and girls being schooled together by a largely feminized institution produces feminized men.

    Drugged up boys who spend their days glued to computer screens suggests to me a yearning for escape. These boys’ natural behaviours aren’t being given expression. The SPCA would fine you for denying behavioural expression to a pet rabbit.

    I don’t know how young men can stand modern day campuses. I’m currently doing some maths papers extramurally, and even these texts are beginning to couch mathematical problems in real-life scenarios that then invite gender representations. I literally feel ill when I come upon this stuff. Reminds me of the science text-books written by Russian authors I read decades ago, that invariably paid a tribute to Lenin or Socialism at some point in the book.

    Then again, lots of young men aren’t even going to colleges these days, so I suppose that’s one way of avoiding the indignity of it.

    2) The role of mother as provider/with-holder of praise and dreamer of great futures for their sons is one I recognised not only in my own life, but also in that of nearly every mother/son relationship I know.

    3) The role of father as role-model of how to live well, rather than chaser of dreams, is also one I recognise. Even today, my elderly father pays far more attention to ethics than to any other thing, such as wealth or popular success.

    Comment by Rob Case — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 6:39 pm

  3. Rob, thanx for your views.

    I don’t know what to say about fathers overall. But I am lucky to read men’s sites. Not the ones you read BTW. The one’s I see your comments on, make me feel repulsed and further out of touch with males. lol

    But then that is males being males, I guess.

    But as for fathers. I have seen the great, the medium and the not so good. And I have heard of some of the most unf**ken-believable things fathers have done to their girls through their therapy.

    Gangs, well, I have heard many a males story. I have seen the soul many a time.

    But I don’t blame feminism for this. Yet fair enough to say males are not fitting into schools now a days.

    Somewhere along the line you have to balance. There is middle ground to all this. The feminists are not all wrong.

    Comment by julie — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 7:08 pm

  4. But I am lucky to read men’s sites. Not the ones you read BTW. The one’s I see your comments on, make me feel repulsed and further out of touch with males.

    Not exactly luck Julie – you seek them out.

    It’s not really enough to ask someone their views, and then use it as an excuse to sound off on something else.

    I posted this particular piece because it resonated with me, as a man. There is a truth in it that I think other men will recognise and appreciate.

    People do horrible things – that’s a fact of life. Men don’t have a monopoly on it. It’s the current attitude that they do that I so strongly object to.

    If you feel repugnance at men speaking their minds, then wonder what men feel when women speak their minds with such lack of restraint. Remember also that you have to go seeking it out. We men only have to pick up a paper, switch on a radio or turn the TV on.

    Comment by Rob Case — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 7:46 pm

  5. Rob,
    Yes, all that you say is right and true. I seek out these sites recently just to understand anti-feminism. I had previously just enjoyed the sites I like.

    I have been unfair because I have not seeked out sites that are misandry. But then I am not looking to them to give truth for they know shite themselves. They are just a network of women on sites giving their studies. They are of no use to me. Sure they are a vote but they like many men’s sites are not the people that make a difference although .. God forbid .. they do get voted into power.

    I don’t really want to get involved in what men think of women and women think of men. It may become the norm one day but it is not real today. We haven’t yet devided society as much as we have on the net. The next generation I feel will not either.

    It is somewhat funny that older women feel the males on the anti feminists site themselves are mummies boys which you article touched on. And to some extent this is true because you or should I say MTGOW is gathering feminist trained men to come out of the matrix. You can’t come out of the matrix unless you have been in the matrix.

    But this is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Anything that saves lives and helps men is positive.

    What is so strange is that these anti feminist sites that I have visited teach young males how to be anti marriage. And yet the men’s movement is supposed to be pro marriage.

    But hey, I am not wanting to shame or judge. I just like to know what i am promoting when I promote men’s rights regarding the Internet. Best to question things I say. Best to do your homework.

    Comment by julie — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 8:57 pm

  6. Rob, You are right, I have changed the subject. Sorry for using you as a sounding board. can you please delete my comments.

    Comment by julie — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 9:00 pm

  7. Most of the men mentioned had money behind them and silly wives

    Comment by rosie — Mon 20th August 2007 @ 9:09 pm

  8. It is somewhat funny that older women feel the males on the anti feminists site themselves are mummies boys which you article touched on. And to some extent this is true because you or should I say MTGOW is gathering feminist trained men to come out of the matrix.You can’t come out of the matrix unless you have been in the matrix.

    This is true. But who in the Western world has not been in the matrix? We are bombarded with it from the moment we’re born. It’s our mother’s milk. You have been there as well, Julie. You are still there, but are perhaps not as enmeshed as others. It is impossible not to be influenced by something that has permeated every level of our culture. I am one of those older women (41), and I don’t really see anti-feminist males as mummies boys. If anything, I see them as the opposite – they are not letting women control them. Some of them are angry, yes. Resentful, yes. It is a reaction they have when they realize they have been lied to all their lives, and when they look around and see how men are viewed and treated, for no better reason than that they were born with a penis.

    What is so strange is that these anti feminist sites that I have visited teach young males how to be anti marriage. And yet the men’s movement is supposed to be pro marriage.

    I have been involved with the men’s movement for over a year, and I have never gotten the impression it is pro-marriage. I often hear that men want marriage, but not to the women available here in the West. I think the advice to young males is not to sell out their self-respect or be ashamed of their maleness in order to get a female to spread her legs or open her mouth for him. Perhaps you misunderstood the message. Or, perhaps I have not seen the same sites you have.

    Comment by KellyMac — Tue 21st August 2007 @ 4:07 am

  9. Kelly Mac,

    Thanx for dropping in.

    Firstly, you are NOT old. I am the same age almost and I do not consider myself old at all. The mind never really ages and as long as your body works well it is as good as any other young whipper-snappers. lol (except for babies although that’s debatable)

    You put forward some good points.

    Comment by julie — Tue 21st August 2007 @ 7:52 am

  10. Julie
    I would be interested in what specific comments on this site that you felt repulsed about and/or that lead you to feel further out of touch with males.

    My impression is that the vast majority of contributions here are very reasonable.

    It is difficult for people from a privileged class to avoid defensiveness when they are confronted by the experiences of a lower class.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 21st August 2007 @ 5:29 pm

  11. Hans, This site is fine.

    It is difficult for people from a privileged class to avoid defensiveness when they are confronted by the experiences of a lower class.

    That’s very interesting that you write this.

    Maybe there is something in what Rosie says afterall.

    Comment by julie — Tue 21st August 2007 @ 9:00 pm

  12. julie said :

    Before I get into, ‘Yeah right, blame it on the mother’ lol

    At least you will acknowledge that a very large number of the current generation of men have been raised by single mothers. So have a lot of the current women too. However, I am yet to see whether these young women have learnt the importance of a father, one they never had while growing up, but make sure that their children will not grow up fatherless. At the same time, single-parent households are rising and even encouraged by the State via benefits.

    The feminists are not all wrong.

    But, feminism is wrong. That is the difference between an individual and an ideology.
    Rob Case said :

    People do horrible things – that’s a fact of life. Men don’t have a monopoly on it.

    Here is where the hypocrisy of feminism lies. They try to classify more and more male behaviours as wrong; at the same time, women are excused of doing wrong, and in some cases even encouraged.
    julie said :

    What is so strange is that these anti feminist sites that I have visited teach young males how to be anti marriage.

    Would you sign this contract ?

    “An employer can, at any time, dismiss an employee, without justification, and have that employee imprisoned if he objects too strongly to his dismissal. For example, if the employee raises his voice in anger he may be arrested for ‘violence‘. In any event, an employer can dismiss an employee regardless of the circumstances, and at his sole discretion. He can fire him from his job, whenever he wishes, no matter how long the employee has served with the company, and even if the employee has done absolutely nothing wrong. Further, the employer can insist that the employee is evicted from his own house, and never allowed to re-enter it. An employer may further demand that the sacked employee must, under threat of imprisonment, forfeit part of any future income to the employer for some considerable time into the future.”

    If you answer ‘No’, you have the answer to your question. If you answer ‘Yes’, please send me your CV/resume. 😉

    And yet the men’s movement is supposed to be pro marriage.

    The men’s movement IS pro-‘marriage reform’, especially in matters of divorce and child custody. (And pro-‘women reform’ too, as KellyMac herself says.)


    Comment by ThirdAttempt — Tue 21st August 2007 @ 9:58 pm

  13. Mikeray,

    I spoke about this with a 60 year old feminist today. She was right up there in the beginning. In fact feminism in NZ is older that 40 years. It may be about 70 years because her mother was on the National Board of women.

    I asked her if the men were all feminised and that real men are becoming obselete. She answered, “Yes, and that it is sad.”

    So I asked her, “Is it our fault as mothers?” She said “No.” She said it is not the males fault but the females. She told me of a time some 30 years ago or round about when a women (don’t remember her name) proposed that we have a “Girls can do anything” movement. She said she stated it was a bad idea and that they should instead have, “Children can do anything and make it equal” But that did not happen. What happened she said was that the females competed with the boys and bragged how they could do anything that the boys could do but when they didn’t want to do something they said, “I am just a girl”

    Also she said it is the fault of the parents of girls. They are the ones raising them wrong. it is not the boys who are being raised wrong. The boys are being raised to work as a team with the girls and that is what women want. Not to take away their masculinity. She says that has stop.

    So I told her of MTGOW and she said the guys will work it out because they just won’t marry the girls. The girls will have to change. She has 4 boys that are older, 2 married with children but her eldest son has a wife who is beyond being a feminist. “She is fat and ugly and she does absolutely nothing” says this lady. The housework does not get done by her but her son, the children do not get cared for by her but her son and her son also works earning a very high wage. This stressful job. This lady hates her daughter in law and has been angry for years that her son would marry such a female.

    If she tells me MTGOW is OK, then it is. And she says it is. Who knows. There may be more feminists out there they agree with it. lol

    Comment by julie — Tue 21st August 2007 @ 10:31 pm

  14. @julie:

    So the women’s movement created a generation of spoilt princesses and the men were taught to co-operate with them.
    In the men’s movement, these men no longer wish to work with such women and hence MGTOW…


    Also, even if women were given the message that ‘girls can do anything‘, most women heard it as ‘girls can have everything‘ and thus began the ‘women-can-have-it-all‘ myth.

    Here is where the imbalance started. For women to have everything without doing everything, something had to be taken away from men. All policies are designed with women in mind and men are supposed to fit in or eat the leftovers. This is what has led to the feminization of males.

    Quick Fact : An international study in 2006 shows that NZ women have the highest rates in ‘female-only severely violent’ relationships – 60% !

    If you meet her again, could you get this feminist’s comments on the higher suicide rates(~70-80% of total) in men, lower life-expectancies in men(~5-10 years lower than women), men falling behind in school & college…


    Regarding this senior feminist’s eldest son, even if he ever wishes to leave his wife, he can’t; in that case he will suffer even more. Moreover, even this lady will suffer when she won’t be able to meet her grandchildren.

    Yes, there may be many such women (especially mothers of boys) who know that feminism may have brought some good things for few women (at the expense of men) – in general feminism is a failed social experiment. No one wants to accept the blame and no one wants to solve the problem.


    According to feminist(!) Adrienne Burgess, for men to be better fathers, women have to loosen the parenting reins

    This resistance from what she calls “old-style” feminists does present difficulties, acknowledges Burgess. “The feminist is very confused about children. On the one hand, they are seen as gold and jewels, women’s main area of control and expertise. But on the other hand, they are seen as women’s greatest burden,” she says, adding that the notion of fathers as important to children is interpreted by some as offensive to single mothers and as undermining women’s autonomy.

    And why are they confused ? The old feminist myth of ‘having it all’. Feminism claims to increase the choices available to women, however the women do not wish to choose. They want it all.
    The last line of the above quote explains why feminism is always antipathetic to fathers and fatherhood. News : Feminism causes child abuse (!). Do you know any feminist who agrees that the best environment for raising children is in a stable family where both mother and father can be the parents they want to be.(Even if she agrees, she will lose her feminist membership)

    For a man to be the father he wants to be, a woman has to be less of the mother she wants to be.

    Comment by mikeray — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 3:10 am

  15. Mikeray,

    I will ask this senior feminist when I next see her your questions in a fortnight. I had talked about the loss she will have if her son leaves his wife and that is how I got a foot in the door, so to speak.

    It is very hard working with feminists because as you know females don’t see things in black and white but with lots of grey around. lol We jump constantly and one week I have support and then the next week I have challenges.

    Feminism will not end soon. It won’t because feminist will always find a victim and feminists will always see imperfection in life that needs to be fixed. They, unlike Rob accepting you can never have perfection, want to be a monopoly and want perfection.

    I never hear we will be fininshed when we haver 90% for I always here it has to be 100%. Unachievable amount.

    You have given a lot of wisdom in your comment. You are right about women and the children. They say that woman use their children against fathers because that is the only control they have had for 1000’s of years. It is this 1000’s of years thing that I fight a lot on. Why should the little baby boy born in the hopspital in 5 minutes time have to suffer because of something that you say happened so long ago? But it didn’t happen so long ago. It happened to the senior feminists. They were treated differently than their brothers. They didn’t have the responisbility to decide where the money was spent and so forth.


    Having Men’s rights (Affairs) at a Government level has been discussed for a while but it won’t happen because if it does it will cut the women’s movement. We will all be one movement. Feminists won’t give that up.

    It does look as if a movement has to start from the ground roots and work it’s way up. With both men and women, boys and girls.

    Yet this is interesting. This is what England is dong instead of a men’s affairs and they do get a say in policy development by the looks of things.

    Comment by julie — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 9:36 am

  16. Hey julie,

    did you know that my last post to you from this site – on the judges was removed?

    And it was consistent with the rules.

    Comment by Benjamin Easton — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 11:01 am

  17. What the removal of my last comments did was to establish a limit on how protest is rationalised in the mens’ movement from this site.

    This means that there is limit: for this post thread it is confined now into “fashioning men’s minds”, which is surely that about which we all collectively complain. Rules not opinion are the reason to limit expression, yet when individuals master those rules, invariably they will work them to fashion an opinion.

    What protections does the individual who would not be a subject of this oppression have, if restricted to challenge when using the same and equal power. Think about it.

    Comment by Benjamin Easton — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 11:17 am

  18. I’ll come back and see what you wrote. There is an mention of me in an editorial, yippee. Also did you know that Family First did protest for fathers recently?

    I have a feeling I am in another editorial so I am going to search that just now.

    I’ll be back.

    Comment by julie — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 1:46 pm

  19. Last comment is to Benjamin.

    Comment by julie — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 1:47 pm

  20. that Family First did protest for fathers recently?

    Details please Julie as nothing I can find on there website supports your statement.



    Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 2:33 pm

  21. Sorry,

    Regarding family First.

    I need to be more careful when I write things. Lobby is not protest. Or in this case a lobby group spoke up.

    Comment by julie — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 6:33 pm

  22. Julie – Scrap –

    don’t be frightened of him for pities sake!

    His name is Bob. Ring Him!

    Comment by Benjamin Easton — Wed 22nd August 2007 @ 6:43 pm

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