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Self Representation in familycaught

Filed under: Boys / Youth / Education,Domestic Violence,Law & Courts,Sex Abuse / CYF — MurrayBacon @ 5:49 pm Thu 20th March 2008

Should we be encouraging men and women to represent themselves in the familycaught?

Surely, if we trusted the values and integrity of the “judges”, then legal workers wouldn’t be required at all?

By emphasising their unpredictability and unreliability, “judges” put massive pressure on to parents, to be fleeced by their junour brethren, the legal workers (who aspire to be asset stripper “judges” themselves).

Get value for money from your legal worker on YouTube

This looks awfully like being rewarded for incompetence, to my eye?

There are some distinct advantages to self representation – for example there is no risk of your legal worker saying things that are totally against what you have asked them to say. I have heard several people make this complaint, and with considerable pain, explain how much it cost to later try to rectify the situation.

Balancing this, there is the hope that a legal worker can present your case, to the “judge”, without getting lost in emotion, possibly to the detriment of the outcome.

Other people just say, if you are going to lose anyway, then you owe it to yourself and to your children, to lose cheaply.

For some people – the biggest issue is blackmail – they are being sold their own children, at the highest possible cost. Like all blackmail, will it ever end?

I guess such blackmail only ends, when the victim refuses to succumb, either because their money (and borrowing capacity) has finally been exhausted totally or they stand up to the secret caught coward that is trying to blackmail them.

Surely, the children’s interests would be better served by addressing the issues surrounding the options for caring for the children, rather than by fomenting adversarial dispute.

A major element in improving outcomes, is for better information about alternatives to be available to all parents and for parents to put in enough effort to understand them!

Certainly, the familycaught website does have some wise material, which sounds like it is heading in this direction.

Why then, is the day to day secret practice of NZ judges still firmly rooted in black and white – one party takes all – duel to the death?

Simply because this is in the paramount interests of the “judges” and legal workers.

If much of the financial resources of the parties has been expended, to resolve one small present issue regarding the care of the children (when no doubt through the next 10 or 15 years many similar issues will arise) then it can be seen that the asset stripping operations of the familycaught will never give long term service to families and their children.

We need to provide a familycaught system that can provide relevant, useful, competent services to families, at a price that doesn’t quickly destroy the family.

One element of this, in my opinion, is helping parents to represent themselves in familycaught (and at the same time to protect their assets for the parents and the children, rather than for the paramount interests of legal workers holidays and mistresses).

Integrity is doing the same when you are in private, that you do when you are being watched or reported on?

Do our “judges” have this sort of integrity?

Best regards, MurrayBacon.

46 Responses to “Self Representation in familycaught”

  1. julie says:

    This is a brilliant idea.

    We could get all the parents dealing with CYFS also to step up and protest outside a family court on this. Get the idea on radio talkback and the newspapers.

    And what about the youth court and the high court and the district court. I am not kidding you when I say you could turn this into some massive discussion. Legal aid lawyers are crap also. Many discussions have gone on about how only money buys you freedom.

    I would be happy to speak up about the youth court problems with being an innocent person. My son was up on charges and when he was arrested he was beaten. But on the court date the person who committed the crime admitted it. Unfortunately the courts don’t know how to deal with that and 8 months later we just had to go guilty to get it over and done with. Lawyer didn’t want to but we were not going to spend 2 years fighting a system.

    How many other people are out there experiencing the same stuff. There must be thousands of them.

  2. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi Julie, I totally agree, but hunger strike is the best way to go

  3. nzleagle says:

    Im representing myself in the family court, and the ex is been represented by a legal aid lawyer.

    The Main reasons im representing myself is, 1. I earn too much to get legal aid, and 2. I feel that by representing myself, I can do things on my time line, not the lawyers, Im able to send in affidavits when I feel like it, and not when I can get a lawyers appointment.

    So far I feel I have been pretty sucessful considering the odds against me, all I have done is told the truth, and nothing else, haven’t exagerated anything, havent made any false acusations what so ever. And because of this, when ever I have made an acusation, eg, drug use, the only defence that my ex has had has been throw the acusation right back with no merit.

    Even looking at the affidavits that I have done, vs the affidavits that my ex’s lawyer has done, the few people that I have shown for advice, have said that my affidavits almost look more profesional than the lawyer drawn up ones.

    I know that I am up against alot by fighting for full custody with no legal advice, but I also feel that if I lose, I can’t blame anyone for it, and I know that ive given it the best shot I can. and so far I don’t think having a lawyer would be giving me a better chance than not having a lawyer, however I don’t belive that the family court is unpredicible, Its pretty safe to say that 9 times out of 10, unless there is something serious like proven execive drug use, abuse, etc the Family court will either go for the “Status Quo” rather than “disrupting” the childs routine.

    While Im on the topic of the “Status Quo” does anyone know where I could get any research on the Development, social status, and future education in DPB raised kids, vs Working family raised kids.

    You can send any websites, or book names to nzleagle@gmail.com

    Thanks

    nzleagle

  4. Morris Lindsay says:

    Wouldnt it be so nice if both parties could just sit down in front of an unbiased Judge and explain their positions without all the Legal preamble? And the costs.

    Bliss.

    I did this just once. I represented myself against a highly regarded lawyer and I won.

    I wouldnt recommend it. I have the status of a McKenzie Friend. But in the case of Children, you take a huge risk.

    Murray I just hate it when you refer to the Family Court as familycaught. I presume this is just a play on words? Is it?

  5. julie says:

    Hi Julie, I totally agree, but hunger strike is the best way to go

    Hi Hadi, I don’t know about this. I have heard of people going on a hunger strike.

    They go for a long time.

  6. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Morris, I apologise for offending your sensibilities. I hate calling them this name and I hope you can see that I am working towards the day when I call them as you request. I have seen them in action 4 times, regarding my own children and in discussions with others seen their outcomes in about cases of 30 other people. I’m not sure if this answers your question?
    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  7. wendy says:

    I can not do a hunger strick, I can’t even finish the forty hour famine! So thats me out :(.
    After self representing, I must say, I would never hire a lawyer no matter what type of legal issue I was facing. This is because I can get my point across very clearly.

  8. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi Julie, if ten or more people sit outside parliament and not eat, this government isnt just going to sit back and watch us die, United Nations are involved now

  9. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi Wendy, it will only be one or two days and something will have to resolved, you wont die, i promise

  10. whanga says:

    I have represented myself in the Family Caught on many many occassions.Judges will also bypass the law to make a decision that involves the least risk for them and also creates the potential of future work for them and the court staff.They are an industry protecting and creating work for themself.Let no one kid themself that this is a case.Lawyers are a waste of time in this place unless there is a complex legal issue involved which is very rarely the case.

  11. rosie says:

    Hi Hadi
    Don’t be fooled.
    Bobby Sands and nine comrades went on hunger strike in 1981 and the British government sat back and allowed them to die.
    Don’t expect things to be any different here in Kiwi land. If you’re lucky enough,Peter Dunne may hand you a pistol on day 31

  12. MurrayBacon says:

    Please excuse me for bringing us back onto topic – helping parents to get through their familycaught gambling session, with an intact parenting relationship and reasonably intact family finances on both sides.

    Only by doing this, can we protect the paramount interests of the children and those who care for them, both of the parents. (We don’t have to protect the paramour interests of the legal workers!)

    Lets protest against featherbedding, incompetent, lazy, selfish or greedy legal workers, not protest to destroy ourselves. Life is for eating, living and loving, not for attacking ourselves or each other.

    Anyway, much the same problems are rife throughout the caught system, it’s just that the consequences are closer to people’s hearts and last much longer in familycaught.

    The answers are not secret or hidden.

    Just ask any Frenchman or German, about the organisation of their home judiciary. They still talk about the 1890 Dreyfus Affair, so maybe we can assume that major breaches of natural justice are somewhat less frequent with inquisitorially organised judicial system. Its not just that in these countries they still prosecute perjury.

    Although the familycaught has legislation to allow it to operate inquisitorially, the judges are not trained for this or any type of judicial work, they are trained only in adversarial advocacy. Besides, adversarial operation is much more profitable, in that it gives legal workers much more pressure and leverage onto their “customers”.

    From what I have seen of legal workers, they need to go on a hunger strike, more than most of us! If they were paid by value delivered, then their charges would be reasonable and there would be few complaints about their charges. They would also deliver quality results, as otherwise their customers wouldn’t pay them. This is what we must move quickly towards.
    Which parties have published constructive policies on “justice”? Maybe only United Future and even then, only Judy Turner?

    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  13. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi guys, these are different circumstances, there are ————- going around stealing peoples lives (children) and we wont sit back and let that happen, we have got United Nations involved and if they see just exactly how many children are being taken fom their family homes each year, they have to do something, i already feel like i have been shot so i am willing to give anything a go, seriously if plan A doesnt work we will go plan B and that could get nasty

  14. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi again, i will be your lawyer, i can sit on my ass and do jack —- the end of the year buy me a mansion and BMW with all the cash you idiots are paying me, i dont even need qualifications, damn straight represent yourself, who better than yourself can stand up and say to another human I love my children and i will be the one to raise them

  15. julie says:

    Hadi Akbari,

    You seem like you have some interesting news to share with us. Especially on how the UN is involved.

    You can become a member of the site and write about things that you think will be of interest to the group and others who read.

    Why don’t you register so you can write an article too. We can always do with the extra help.

  16. Hadi Akbari says:

    Hi Julie, I will halp you guys any way i can, i have many friends who are Middle Eastern backing me as we dont believe in taking peoples children and United Nations know that, since i have been in this country i have been discriminated and i wont stand for it

  17. Karen says:

    We are about to head to the family court for a mediation conference. Anyone who has been there and self represented Id really appreciate hearing from you. Also does anyone have any advice on the following??

    I have a 13 yr old and 7 yr old step children. In Oct we went to counselling and the mother agreed to 50/50 care. Week on, week off scenario. She took agreement to sol to peruse before signing. In Jan we receive a letter from her sol to say her client happy with arrangements and we have 2 options 1) to change to week about and not formalise OR formalise care by Consent memorandum. We opted for the 2nd choice. In the meatime this sol becomes a f/court judge and the ex is sent to a new sol…….. In Feb we get a letter from new sol AND THIS MATTER IS NOW NOT SORTED!!!!!!! so here we go again………….My husband talks to the children to see what their wishes are now…….daughter lies and says it not her that doesnt want 50/50 its her brother. We ask the 7 yr old are you happy or would you prefer to change back to every second ftn…no he wants week about. The 13 yr then says its her that doesnt want 50/50…..next morn we also find out that 13 yr daughter has dropped father’s surname(as surname was hyphenated). dad asks why…..daughter goes quiet…. The next day she is meant to be in our care for the easter break as per our 50/50 and she hangs up on my husband saying she is not coming to our house and that she doesnt want to discuss the matter further….next morn we pick up 7 yr old from his mothers house and the mother who is loving all this animosity between dad and daughter!!) says she will not make the daughter go and that it will not be discussed..My husband tries to remind his ‘ex’ THAT he has backed her up on 2 or more occasions when the 13 yr thinks she is a 20 yr old….and said what is she going to do when the mother gets told to get stuffed????? My husband and his ex have been divorced for 5 yrs and unfortunately when he left the mother told the children she was lonely etc..Unfortunately she has used the 13 yr old (9 at the time) as a confidant to all her prob instead of talking to the right people and not using her daughter as a sounding board in the separation/divorce…Anyway – does anyone here know where we stand legally….could we have forced the daughter etc etc..It feels that a 13 yr has all the right to tell her father to get stuffed…I know no 13 yr old would get away with that if it was a family who hadnt gone thru separation…….pls help.

  18. Andrew Wotton says:

    Karen, the most important thing to remeber is that the judge cannot make an order at a mediation conference without your agreement, click on Fathers of New Zealand RH side of this page for explanation and info re mediation conference.

    The second issue is what is a “sol” presumabley its a solicitor, can you send me this persons name at andywotton@paradise.net.nz

    The FC will go with what a 13yo says what he / she wants but given there appears to now be a failure of the mediation then I would apply to the court for parenting orders.

  19. Karen says:

    Hi Andy

    We have applied for a Parenting Order. We sent a consent memorandum to the ex’s sol to sign so we could then file to the f/court by way of an Order – hoever new sol onboard has stirred the honey pot and we are back to square one. I was told in the weekend we should apply for the Parenting Hearing Prog because the judge at mediation cannot make an order without agreement and at the PHP they can make an order on the spot. We are self litigants and maybe the sol thinks we will back down when we have to go to mediation…how wrong is she!! We are fighting to the end for our kids…..we believe the kids have a right to be involved in both parents lives and that they also have the right to both parents making sure their relationship with the other parent is protected and encouraged daily e.g mum/children, dad/children. Unfortunately the other party believes the children should be in her care more (funny because 2 months ago was happy with the care arrangements of week about since Oct 07???? Do you think mediation is a waste of time when we know there will not be an agreement reached??

  20. Karen says:

    Well we have just had this Fri set for a mediation conference. We are having a lay person from UOF in Tauranga. Another round in the ring…….We have been told if we get Judge Sommerville then we basically have lost straight away as she is very in favour of the female…You’d think having me there as a concerned step mum of these children that would help sway her…we wont hold our breath. Im not into praying but anyone out there who is we need all the luck on our side!! to get the privilege that most mothers continually have in separations/divorces and thats a relationship with their children without having to prove they are fit, luv the kids, have their best interest at heart etc etc!

  21. Jerry says:

    Well said Murray, you make some very good points. As you say, the same problems are rife through the whole justice system, not just with family issues. Its becoming more and more difficult to find anyone who is willing to do anything or create anything because of unreasonable legal standards that are constantly being re-interpreted in court at great expense. Its just that most people don’t realise how bad things are with getting justice until the wife decides that she needs the home for her new boy friend to move in and that the children are her toys and she won’t share them (I say the wife as statistically 75% of all family breakups are initiated by women in NZ USA, UK, although it is likely that the true figure are over 90%: women just have too much to gain). Women and all litigators must be rewarded by the lawyer-judges for keeping them in business which is why either side could easily win, regardless of the issues. The adversarial system is highly flawed and rewards litigant’s dishonesty and lawyers obfuscations and allows side issues and trivia to become equally as important as the main issues. When two countries go to war, who can ever honestly say that justice is done?

  22. whanga says:

    Well what happened Karen? What order was made?I truly hope that you made some resolution.As for the name thing with the 13 year old I have just gone through that myself with a 12 year old.It is an extremely difficult situation.How wil your partner’s grand and great grandchildren know where they come from if this little 13 year old child is not stopped from changing her name.There is a reason that she is not legally entitled to do this.She will think more of keeping her proper name when she is older and legally able to do it.Your partner should stand strong on this

  23. alma says:

    I am a 2008 vintage protection orders victim.

    I started with a lawyer. For about 4 hours meetings and 1/2 day waiting for a hearing that never eventuated i paid nealy 4000 dollars. I thanked the lawyer and
    and started representing my self. I understood it was a simple family dispute given apocalyptic proportions by a devilish system.

    The first hearing did not eventuate because the C4C advised me to postpone. She told me that the judge was grumpy that day ( It nearly scared me). Silly me i postponed. Today i believe i had more chances with that judge. Later i heard from a friend that that jugde has bad reputation in town. I understood that it is probably because she is a good judge and rumours were spread about her.

    Now my four kids have been barred from seeing their dad. I am lucky my wife is not nasty or mean. It is just that she has been scared by the system into doing what they say or they will remove the children from her.
    I hope she will realise soon. That is my only hope as i am resigned that there
    is no justice in this country. A country without a strong justice can not hope to last.

    In the Arab world justice is with men. But then they have no process to dupe women into believing they will get justice. Women there know there is no justice
    and they fight for it. Here the justice is with women but then there is a process for men to follow…

    Lessons learnt.
    1– Represent yourself. The lawyer knows you are going to loose.

    Focus on the exagerations (ALWAYS hits the children) and ommissions (The
    will not mention that you used time out) of your wife’s affidavit prepared
    by Womens Refuge

    Focus on the well being of your wife and children
    Do not enter into confrontation with your wife. She say f* say thank you.

    Anything you say will be used against you. Hold a common sense conversation

    2– Refuse to pay to any supervised visits. It is actually seen with a good eye
    if you pay. So if you want to fund your humiliation go for it.
    By the way any programs you attend or say you pay for supervision it proves
    for them that you are that bad guy.

    I had a very good supervisor who wrote very good reports about me. The only
    human i met during this process.

    3– You will loose no matter what. The law is crafted in such a way that the
    perception of violence by your wife, just the perception is enough. Judges
    are given no maneuvring. It does not matter how honnest they are. They are a
    victim themselves.

    4– C4C is your first enemy. Do not trust her. The law is clear about her role
    which is to represent the views of the children. She will fail on purpose to
    do so if it happens that the children want contact with their dad and love
    him

    5– Do not do anything silly or violent. Remain strong and calm. Focus on your
    children and wife’s well being. The System is geared towards
    engineering the violent person that is dormant in all of us.
    Remember the Pumpkin’s(The chinese) guy. The system pushed him to commit
    murder and they failed to protect the mother.

    6– Do not think the house and assets your worked hard for to ensure a future
    for your family are anymore yours or think it is 50/50. It wrong The judge
    will make a decision on that. You are from no on a beggar.

    8– Your family will loose. The system is designed to destroy families.
    Focus on your children and wife well being. Your wife’s well beeing is
    paramount the the well being of your children.

    9– Last do not rely on sympathy from fellow New Zealanders. You will just rock
    their dream of a unique, pure and just country.

    After all you are not Nelson Mandella.

    A call for all women out there.
    Do not settle for a human and natural divore. There is much and much to be gained going through Womens Refuge. If you start there evrything will end in your favour including all the assets of your husband. It is easy to do and they
    will show you how to win(so easy) and they will guide you to a lawyer( the system will pay for it) who is trained in dirty tricks and setups.

  24. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Alma, you have picked up on how familycaught works fast.

    I hope you are not doing it on your own. These same potholes have been around for a few decades, so it is important to learn from previous people’s experiences, good and bad.

    Many men assume that women always win. These stories are talked about more, especially in men’s circles. This is not true however. Men do sometimes win and sometimes they abuse the caught processes too. I hope that you would never descend to this.

    Even if it seems that women win all cases in familycaught (as I have said this is not completely true), really – what have they gained?

    The real world depends on trust to operate efficiently and smoothly. When people destroy the trust that others have had in them, then they destroy their own access to good working relationships.

    Of course, this applies to women destroying their husband’s trust in them. The parenting relationship for the children is almost destroyed. Both parents lose and certainly the children do too.

    When familycaught judges work to destroy men and women’s trust in them, then eventually people lose all respect for them as judges. The caught becomes a laughing stock and people don’t respect any orders that it makes. In the end, people give up even approaching such a pathetic institution. It is simply irrelevant to making decisions to give good parenting. The familycaught does not give anything of lasting value in the real world.

    Parties usually end up in familycaught, because one or both are too lazy to put in enough effort to negotiate. This is tragic, their laziness ends up costing these parents hugely, in the long run.

    What matters – is the real world. The familycaught can print out and post orders, but when people see these ignored, then why approach familycaught at all? They just take money and deliver almost nothing of lasting value.

    Many familycaught orders quickly become useless, because the real world situation changes, as it always must. The parties, having vented their frustrations and anger, eventually negotiate (without wasting time to involve the familycaught). This negotiation can be renegotiated, if required in the future.

    Some couples waste a huge amount of money on familycaught process, before they realise that they can do far far better themselves. We should be giving more help to couples, to develop their negotiating skills and to show that it is valuable to act with integrity.

    It does take effort to negotiate, a lot of effort.

    It also takes a realistic understanding of the real world, which is often lacking in one or both parties.

    Parties to the negotiation may have a little bit of mental health issues. These need to be competently addressed, for the people to be able to manage their negotiating position. This is not rocket science, just “common sense” which isn’t really always common!

    The familycaught process acts to destroy trust between the parents. This may serve the paramount interests of the legal workers and judges, certainly not the family members. This loss of trust makes it harder to re-establish a working negotiating relationship. Even so, most parents see through this and redevelop a negotiating relationship.

    The question is, how long does it take for them to see the best path forward?
    How much hard earned money is wasted, before personal wisdom comes back?

    Even when women take advantage of their access to abusing familycaught process, they are throwing away real world trust, that in the long run is worth far more to them. They lose access to people trusting them and they are fragmenting and destroying their own world. It may give a short term illusion of power. It is really only Mutually Assured Destruction. (Just as bad, when men do it!)

    Be patient, avoid those who would try to use you and work hard to make your real world situation as good as possible. Your children are fortunate to have you.

    Best regards, MurrayBacon.

  25. alma says:

    MurrayBacon,
    Thanks for the words.
    Do not get me wrong. For me no matter the outcome, we both lost. And certainly our children have lost big time. Already they are feeling the heat at school where children whose parents separated through a natural normal process are telling my children that they can see their dads when they can and not them. Because of that my daughter has already pulled all her eyelashes. They want to see their dad but they cannot. They are powerless at changing anything. They do not even know what is going on. And so i am powerless at changing anything.

    The Court has served me with orders though i demonstrated to them that the well being of my wife and my chidren is paramount. I believe they are punishing me because i told them that the orders are destroying my family and the programs we were sent to only exacerbated the situation. I told them that the counselling received my wife made her unreconisable beyond belief. She used to be a strong and caring wife and since she visited Women’s Refuge she has just become an other person. I believe a woman directed from Womens Refuge will eventually have orders served on her husband no matter what.

    The Court does not seem to recognise that they made a mistake. Since i was served with a without notice protection order than it means the case is serious.
    No matter how you comply with law, do the violence programe and have good positive reports made by a Court appointed supervisor.

    They are treating me like you would treat a mentally risky person.

    I have lived with my wife for 15 years through up and downs but i cared for my family more than anything in the world. My monthly salary went to my wife’s bank account. I slapped my child hard for discipline and may said some ‘threating’ words about 10 years ago (do not even remember the context) and that is it. Protection orders. Without means of communicating with my wife to diffuse the situation and make life of the children easier. The children want inhibited contact with their dad but their views are not taken into account.

    I believe my wife’s fears have been reinforced and aggravated by the counselling
    provided by Barnados counsellor ( I haveproof of that but the court would not admit that they are contracting to a bad counsellor ). My wife is totally a different person now and thinks i am about to go to the family home to get her which is totally insane as a thought.

    It is a heavy- handed soviet style to resolving problems. The Court’s way and no avenues for complaints or appeals. A fair Court will not advertise every where
    avenues for complaints and appeals. Why would they be needed if they just did a proper job. I have a feeling that the judges have their hands tied by first an unfair law. (perception of violence by a woman is sufficient to prove violence. and if you have an argument with your wife and the children were around it is the man fault not the woman fault hence psychological violence proved ) as weel as they need to be seen that they are supporting Women’s Refuge. I used to think
    that Women’s Refuge is a noble organization as i have in the past directed a woman to them and still believe their work is necessary in risky situation where a woman runs the danger of being violently assaulted. But not after my traumatic experience.

    I believe my wife to have started a process she regrets a lot but cannot stop it
    and she does what she is told to do if she wants to get the DPB

    My message is really this to all men and women( whose men run to get the protection orders first, apparently it is a race) is to 1 represent yourself, as only you know the dynamics of your family. 2 do not enter into adversarial litigation (the system wants that). focus on the children well-being and in my case the well being of my wife.

    My only hope is that my wife’s will get back to her spirits.
    I do not believe in the system to redress itself.

    But as you say it is a short term gain for women as people would think twice before enggaging into a relationship. This is bad for women, men, children.
    These are surely foundations for a country’s own distruction.

    Believe me the whole process strengthened my bond with this country ( I am a bloddy foreigner). I was proud of representing myself and see the pitfalls early on. But then judge’s decision is final. I so wished the mother did not get the orders and i regarded that as a win to all the family against a blind system.
    In that event I planned not to go to the family home unless my wife wanted it.
    But the whole family lost. And somehow this country…

    I care about my family and care about this country.

  26. whanga says:

    Get two things right mate.1.Expect no justice,reasonableness or fairness from any lawyer,court,court staff or court appointed lawyer or counsellor in this country.They have an agenda far removed from justice,reasonableness and fairness.They want to see disharmony,fighting and litigation.
    2.Woman’s Refuge is anything but a noble organisation.They are sick and twisted and bitter women who want to drag other women down to their level.As you have seen!They demand women lie and direct them to dishonest,adversarial lawyers.They have no regard whatsoever for the benefits of fathering.They discourage mediation and negotiation.
    I had arranged a mediation meeting with my childs mother and after agreeing to it she was advised by this terrible place called Shakti House not to attend.2 years later we were still fighting.Now I do not even know where that daughter is..

    The fact that the government gives money to these organisations is scandalous.I am sorry to dispel your naive illusions.This country’s systems are well beyond repair and children up and down the land are suffering.Best thing is just to give up and move on with your life.You are fighting against powerful,evil forces whose strength is given to them by scum who include our terrible Prime Minister. Her team of father hating family court judges and court staff,Child Support officers etc will do your head in and drive you to despair if you let them

  27. cb says:

    well worded whanga, that is exactly how it is for many of us and no one gives a damn in the government..

  28. MurrayBacon says:

    Caughts do not make mistakes!

    Have you ever seen even Judge Boshier admit that the familycaught has ever made a mistake, of any type? Such behaviour does not inspire confidence.

    They might see this arrogance as a claim to strength, but if you think about it, the only people who have never made a mistake, have never made anything of value at all!

    People who cannot face their mistakes, will never learn from them and get better. This is why the familycaught doesn’t improve it’s act, because they don’t look for how they could improve. They spend their time congratulating each other. Mutual masturbation?

    So, if the caughts never make mistakes, then it must be the people who take their cases to the caught, who have made the mistake!

    It is difficult to “test” the performance of a judge. Sometimes such a test occurs, through circumstances out of our control.

    In the USA, about 150 people on death row have now been exonerated by DNA testing, which was unavailable when they were convicted. Many have now been released from prison, been given a typed apology and invited to pisoff! Some are still in prison, because although they have been exonerated by evidence, they are still waiting for a hearing or to have a legal worker allocated to request a hearing! The remainder were executed.

    This is fairly hard evidence that although caughts don’t make mistakes, they can get the outcome wrong, as seen from the real world.

    This is really quite similar to surgeons claiming that the operation was a success, but the patient died! Such a claim does not inspire confidence.

    I haven’t heard this claim since I was a boy, about 50 years ago. I believe this illustrates how far the legal workers are behind the society that is stupid enough to feed these beneficiaries. If we pay irrespective of their performance, then we deserve the treatment that we get!

    This is why we threw out hanging, the “judges” were not skilled enough to administer it competently and they couldn’t fix up their fuckups, by resurrection!

    Anyway, I assume that you are all voters. Find out who created the various messes and tell them that you know this and plan to not vote for them. Tell the other side why you will be voting for them. If you show that you don’t know these things, you throw away any leverage that you have onto politicians and you will continue to be treated the same.

    Its the public that need the familycaught to improve, the legal workers are very happy with how it works for them.

    So protect yourselves and your children, fight for forcing the familycaught to take it’s work seriously.

    The familycaught only hurts people who take it seriously!

    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  29. cb says:

    Should we be encouraging men and women to represent themselves in the familycaught?

    TOO MANY CHIEFS AND NOT ENOUGH INDIANS AROUND THIS PLACE – as dean martin once put it…

    FUCK THE FAMILY COURT LEGAL SYSTEM !!!

  30. bull en a china shop says:

    As Ghandi said:

    “Even if you are in a minority of one,
    the truth is still the truth”.

  31. paul says:

    Trying to defend yourself is giving yourself to the wolves, It is not playing the game, or should I say paying the game. The judges will look on you as a tight arse, they (with all their money) will think hey dude if it means that much to you you should pay for it. Why are you doing it on the cheap. Judges and all the crap that goes with the courts do not understand that some people do not have unlimited funds. They live in there little lives with a surplus of cash. They think if your trying to get it on the cheap that you are personally trying to rip them off. Its all abount money not justice, these court cases cost heaps. When someone sees some in trouble, then they are a sitting duck to get ripped off. It is totally wrong. My feelings that if the police or whoever want to charge you with some thing that the government (or police) must pay for your legal representation until you are proven guilty. This will stop stupid charges being laid. Also if you are proven innocent then compensation should be made. ( as you have probably spent a night down the cells getting abused by the cops ). Likewise if you are proven guilty then you will have to pay the account. Police can just lay willy nilly charges and force many people to go guilty because they can not afford to lose $2000 plus for a defence. I am not talking about legal aid people, I am talking about the general working person. It is totally wrong and injust. Perhaps there is a legal eagle out there that can and will lobby for this. If so please contact me. Cheers Paul

  32. MurrayBacon says:

    The difficulties about legal workers desiring to charge unreasonably large fees that are obviously not cost effective, is not a new problem:

    The book: Wives for sale by Menefee, Samuel Pyeatt
    First published 1981
    Basil Blackwell Publisher

    Fly leaf cover:

    Addressing a bigamous and indigent hawker in the middle of the last century (about 1850), Justice Maule declared:
    I will tell you what you ought to have done. . . You should have instructed your attorney to bring an action against the seducer of your wife tor damages . . . you should have employed a proctor and instituted a suit in the Ecclesiastical Courts. . . . When you had obtained a divorce a mensa et thoro. you had only to obtain a private Act tor divorce a vinculo matrimonii. . . and altogether these proceedings would cost you £1000. You will probably tell me that you never had a tenth of that sum, but that makes no difference. Sitting here as an English judge, it is my duty to tell you that this is not a country in which there is one law for the rich and another tor the poor. You will be imprisoned for one
    day.

    The judge’s ruling was a wry acknowledgement of the dilemma faced by the man in the street, who was normally unable to obtain a divorce sanctioned by Church or State. For centuries such men resorted to informal means of slipping the knot of matrimony, one of which was selling a wife in the open market. Wives for Sale is a fascinating study of this practice, which developed its own traditions, rules and procedures. The author considers the causes and consequences of wife sales and the reactions to the institution of the courts, the press and the public. He draws parallels between wife-selling and other contemporaneous social practices and beliefs and considers the custom as it was reflected in popular culture.
    From this study the selling of wives emerges as a popularly accepted expedient, often welcomed by husband, purchaser and ‘merchandise’ alike. The author argues that the institution was a conservative and traditional solution to the problems faced by communities denied the practical option of divorce, a solution rooted in the primary mechanisms of social interchange. As a scholarly examination of an informal institution, Wives for Sale makes a valuable contribution to ethnography and social history; as an investigation into an ingenious and pragmatic social practice, the book is an intriguing study for both specialists and general readers.

    We can see that the caughts have a tradition lasting at least 158 years, of being unable/unwilling to offer competent or cost effective services to the general public.

    Will the public one day wakeup?
    Now would be a good time!

    The “great” minds that created these problems, will not be the ones that solve them!

    The beginning of the solution, is to remove the management of the judiciary from these clowns and for non legal worker MPs to take an active role in checking the quality of new and already passed legislation.

    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

  33. Auckland says:

    Hi All.

    I am facing court on the 11 Aug and I will have to represent myself as I do not have the funds. Its a male on female assult. I have already appeared in court, entered a ‘not guilty plea’ and was give a choice of 1 person or 9 (cant quite remember) for the jury.

    My wife and I had an argument which got out of hand. I tried to spite her and call the police to get her thown out of the house. She in turn spited me and told my step daughter to lay a charge of assult agains me saying I slapped her. This was done and I was arrested. I didnt do it, the cops say I said I did. All the statements and inconsistant and incorrect.

    The victim abuse people keep contacting my step daughter asking her if she wants a statment read out in court. We dont know what this is about.
    My step daughter contacted the police and told them she wants to with draw her statement. They said no. I do not have money for a lawyer. The courts have told me to get a lawyer.

    My step daughter has be served papers to appear. She refuses to appear and wont be there. How can I get this all to disapear. Is there anyone that can help me please.
    Thanks
    Brett

  34. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Brett,

    Contact the East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09)271 3020 or alternatively email your contact details to paulcat@xtra.co.nz

  35. Anon says:

    Ive had Judge de Jong and Jdge McHardy a lot, and they have been saying I have said things I have not said. have also been dealing with a counsel for child in Takapuna who has blatantly lied and fabricated nonsense. Its all becoming quite unreal, that the checks and balances in the court system just arent working, and the system is prtecting itself and not being accountable to an extent that the word justice cant be applied to many of the going ons in family court. NZ is so behind the rest of the world in this regard, many who call themselves feminists are nothing more than misandrists, as, as soon as you are no longer a humanist, you cannot call yourself a feminist. Good on all of you, men and women, who are effecting positive change with your efforts for children and their fathers

  36. Scott B says:

    Yup had judges L4C etc lie too, just to make the system and themselves look good!

  37. Mike says:

    Has anyone started proceedings,I want to go to the family court to get a more fair child care arrangement. I need to know how to file the first document to start things going. Also I want to make a complaint about my childrens lawyer, how do I go about this, Mike

  38. mits says:

    Hi Mike
    I havent started proceedings but have had to respond to quite a few. From what I can tell all you have to do to kick off proceedings is pop down to the nearest Familycaught and get the forms you need from the registrar. I dont want to appear sexist in this but I would suggest that you get a female member of your family or friends to initially do this and then you might find the registrar ever so helpful in giving the right forms and information as well as advice right from the coal face so to speak.
    As for the childrens lawyer you basically have to look at him as an extra assistant to your ex wife or her legal team. Dont trust them at all.
    Be polite and respectful but also firm in keeping the childrens lawyer on target as to what the application is as you will usually find they try to complicate the issue rather than assist at all.
    I havent had any success in complaining about the childrens lawyer and infact have had my complaints used against me as the Judge was once a lawyer and they dont like a non lawyer even hinting that someone with their snout in the trough might not be doing the best job.
    All the best in your endeavours here Mike and I wish you and the kids luck
    Mits

  39. Abraham says:

    Greetings to you all,
    I am about to embark on a great battle.
    I have exhausted my money on lawyers and have essentially received nothing in return.
    Winston may have said “never before has so much been spent on so few for so little in return”
    I have been to counselling sessions and parenting through separation courses. I have just come out of a court led mediation session.
    I am not easily given to a “poor me” position, But Truely I am astounded at the lengths the system appears to go to to prevent a father who to all accounts is 100% commited, willing and able to get any increase over 40% shared care.
    Sadly my relationship with the respondant is as a consequence of my application now extraordinarily poor.
    As a result the respondant is doing all in her power to prevent my contact with the kids. When I complain she tells me to talk to my lawyer. who would (I suppose to record the fact) send out a letter regarding the issue.
    NOW to the point.
    I wish to do away with the dark forces of our parasitic legal fraterity and take up the good fight in person.
    Question 1 – If I write a letter outlining this particuler issue to her as I see it.
    What do I have to do to give it a similar weight as that of lawyers letter?

  40. julie says:

    Abraham, I emailed you to ask what area of NZ you are in so I can pass you on to someone who can help.

    Getting past the 40% is difficult because it means either less money to your ex or if you gain 50% and she earns more, she has to pay.

    It’s a sad situation and even sadder that you’ve spent soooo much on legal fees. I’m writing up pages so separated parents know what the Family Court is all about, what the procedure is and what the alternatives are.

    But in the meantime, representing yourself is the best thing you can do and it helps greatly if you have some people who have been there, done that, and help men walk this walk.

    You need to join this site. It is a private site and to join you must also join Yahoo.

    Do it! It will be one of the best actions you make.

  41. julie says:

    Abraham, I seriously hope I don’t come over like a telling person because that’s not who I am.

    It’s just that the men that regularly answer these sort of comments are busy with their other projects and I thought I would steer you in the right direction.

  42. Truth (Sadly) says:

    Dear Anon
    I too had the disgustingly shocking experience of having to appear before “judge” McHardy. This man embodies all that is so horribly wrong with the NZ legal system. I use the term “legal system” extremely loosely as there is no possible connection that can be made with the actual intended meaning of the term. In my opinion; which was gained out of experience and is based strictly on absolute facts; judge McHardy is in no way capable of performing the task that he is being paid to perform. He simply does not have the ability as honesty; logical reasoning and decency cannot be taught or bought. My ex lied to ‘judge’ McHardy, more than once, in his own court room and to his face. I was allowed to provide only a fraction of the undeniable proof which I had available in order to defend myself. My ex admitted to ‘judge’ McHardy that she had lied as she had no other option given the fact that I had provided absolute proof. I was not allowed to submit any further evidence in my defence in spite of the fact that ‘judge’ McHardy allowed her to submit further new and unsubstantiated allegations. McHardy then ruled that the act of me defending myself was actually an attack on her credibility”¦”¦.. Du! She lied; I’m sorry! McHardy then ruled that my ex was mistaken about the fact that she had lied and that she was actually telling the honest truth so help him God. The court keeps a recorded record of what was said in court and we have the right to apply to be provided with a copy of this at a huge financial cost. Most unfortunately for us is it up to the very person who has every reason and desire not to provide you with the evidence of the fact that he is a fraud and a blithering idiot who is incapable of tying his own shoe laces and is just too happy that he made it to work without having fallen over his own feet out of bad judgement! I cannot list all of the horrors here as I do not have the strength left to do so. Dear Anon I know your pain, I live your frustration and disappointment every moment of my life and I am sorry. I wish you only the very best that this life can possibly have to offer and I wish you every success. Sadly ‘judge’ McHardy will not be the one to offer even a glimmer of hope as he along with many others in the business of family destruction busy themselves with just that.

  43. Andrew says:

    The fundemental mistake is that you tried to defend yourself. Name me any army, sports team or anyone else that ever won anything by defending itself. In each of the 3 previous rape allegation cases that I have done in the FC the results have been; (1)withdrawl by the ex 2 days before the hearing and consent agreement to 50 / 50 shared pareenting; (2) Ex never turned up at first hearing but judge said welcome guys, please come and and sit down and then proceeded to give all weekend supervied contact until the proper hearing could be heard, never was heard because the ex wouldn’t come into the court for the second hearing and agreed by consent to free and unfetterd contact and (3) despite there being allegations of rape from the ex and her sister the judge lectured the mother on the need for Father contact and gave supervised contact until the substantive hearing. Never defend yourself, always go and attack them

  44. Truth says:

    Hi Andrew

    I was represented by a lawyer. I paid him to represent me to be more to the point but he was a complete waste of time and money. He was, is & surely will always be a total waste of space. If only I chose to defend myself. Sure the outcome would have been the same given the absolute fact that the family court is bias, unjust, criminal, corrupt, shameless and nothing more than a disgrace to humanity.

  45. Truth says:

    Hi Alma
    I read what you wrote re being a foreigner and loving the country. I to was a foreigner in NZ which I held very dear and loved more than I can put in words. That was untill I was dragged into its remarkable legal system and all its workings. I spent 3 years fighting with every bit of strength and will but I never even had a hope in hell. After the NZ family court was done obliterating my family and child I left NZ by myself without ever looking back and I have no regret. The NZ government is still paying my ex child support to the value of $16 per week and will keep doing so until I comlete a form that provides them with my current details. Given the fact that my ex is nothing but an evil demented creature with nothing good in her am I not willing to provide them/her with any details regarding myself. I suppose its only right that the NZ government keeps paying for its own doing esp given the nature of the stupidity. I wish you all the best in NZ. Beautiful most wonderous country completely ruined by unbelievable stupidity and injustice!

  46. Fred says:

    I spent a most relaxing afternoon in the sun while spreading topsoil and fresh compost on my lawn yesterday. With regards to judge I A McHardy and his credibility and ability; I stepped on a smelly lump of some sorts while spreading this fresh compost which has far more credibility and ability than that waste of flesh and bone will ever manage to scrape together. Do your own family the largest of favours you possibly can Ian and provide them with a protection order against yourself and your blinding stupidity. Heaven knows you had far less reason for removing me from my daughter’s life! Your family deserves far better a human being than you will ever be able to offer them.

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