The problem we face with progress
One could ask: What right does someone with a few years experience have to judge a movement? What knowledge could someone provide who hasn’t lived through the days of the 1st feminist wave or the 2nd feminist wave?
There are a range of answers that can show a person who has little actual ‘in the face experience with hateful feminists‘ gives a balanced point of view. Especially when that person has vowed to find the answer themselves.
But what is strange about the answer is that men in NZ have known it for decades. Nothing has changed in decades from men’s perspective and some are still anti feminism wanting women back in the kitchen while others are pro feminism as seeing the need was there and what happened was right and just. It seems that the MRM on the whole has still not shifted from this political fight within it’s organisation which has made it almost impossible for it to shift outside to affect the real world.
I have found it easy to ask “What is going on here?”, over the last 2 years because the answer has been synonymous. I don’t know whether I didn’t believe it or whether it hadn’t been explained to me well enough that encouraged me to keep looking for the answer. But I can say that I feel as if I am social worker in Africa trying to feed the starving while political warfare goes on that stops the starving from the food.
…………
Feminism was a movement of women to begin with. Not an actual political move and this has allowed both left and right to pick it up as a cause and a tool for parties to use to get votes.
Masculism on the other hand is an enemy to feminism and considers it to belong to the left wing thus making masculism not a movement but a right wing policy that the right wing will not pick up for the simple fact that right wing policy is not anti feminism. It stands to reason that being anti a movement that is 40 years of age with many worthwhile policies cannot be overthrown over night nor in the next generation while technology and business theology thrives. Women are a valued tool to also bring changes around on a global scale without war or alongside war as a 2nd tier to the bush administration and until only war is the answer to revolution women will not be going back into the kitchen. (so to speak)
This leaves the MRM with 2 solutions. Either work with feminists or work against feminists.
But again this leaves the MRM divided between anti feminists and pro feminists.
I like to tell men that women are seeing men’s point of view because it is truth. They do! But in saying that …. women are reluctant to put down the cause to care for women just to suit the MRM. “What would you give up to mend the genders?” one can ask. But then the answer needs to be different when talking to the 2 different sides of the MRM. One side would be happy with negotiation while the other side expects you to surrender your soul as if you have been captured and fear torture. “Seriously, I don’t think women are fearing men at the moment and I don’t think the next generation of women fear men either but will do the opposite behaviour of the generation of women before them whether it be marry younger and have children younger or turn lesbian.
Things changing society.
Men are moving today in a direction that is anti marriage because of the failure rate they have seen in past generations and possibly a marriage strike will bring men and women closer because of the destruction of families and the pain that has been caused to them when innocent children.
Possibly gender feminists will find themselves in front of a firing range for their murderous behaviour around late abortions. Or that Christians will pressure the laws to change forcing all women to be pro life and we can start again with the problem of underground black market procedures. Either way it is all about the lobbying and vote. And either way it is a political fight by women against women. Still not an actual MRM move.
Then there is the next generation who has almost forgotten the past. Somewhere along the way bigger more important issues have surfaced for the young. One that is bringing them united as global movements rather than small movements as families. Environmental issues, war issues, superpowers and world poverty. We have advanced much with our communication and freedom of choice is accepted almost these days as religion.
But what is an MRM move then?
Can it be caring for males and providing support in the community or is this too out of reach and the community is left standing trying to feed the staving while political warfare exists to stop the food from it’s journey?
Or is the journey happening behind the back, in the silent alleys of the MRM? Is it possible that eventually there will become one MRM when one side becomes greater than the other side?
And which side will prevail in this global world that is fast moving towards a world never seen before?
Just want to add that if anyone is looking to gain statistics around DV in NZ there is a senior analyst involved in research for the National office of Ministry of Justice.
His name is Dominic Lepa. Ph: (04) 918 8897
It is still difficult to get criminal stats as we don’t have a law ‘Female assaults Male’.
Comment by julie — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 9:32 am
Julie this seems consilatory and well written – I have printed it off to help get my head around it – Quick read seems good
Onward – jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 12:48 pm
Those statistics don’t mean shit, half of them are bogus, you want statistics lady – the hospital / doctor is the only place that can honestly verify physical injury, (not some dumbass nazi cop) too many innocent people going through the criminal courts and being convicted on nought. Ministry of Justice can go fuck itself, for all i care.
Comment by Colin of Nazareth — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Colin of Nazareth, no need to give me a lecture.
Go yourself and get the statistics.
Comment by julie — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 6:39 pm
Spot on
1 – **It seems that the MRM on the whole has still not shifted from this political fight within it’s organisation which has made it almost impossible for it to shift outside to affect the real world.**
#Yes and Yes and Yes thus my attempt at a-fathers-coalition
2 – **But I can say that I feel as if I am social worker in Africa trying to feed the starving while political warfare goes on that stops the starving from the food.**
#Yes and Yes many are trying to do BOTH
But what is an MRM move then?
3 – **Can it be caring for males and providing support in the community or is this too out of reach and the community is left standing trying to feed the staving while political warfare exists to stop the food from it’s journey?**
#Yes and Yes many are trying to do BOTH
4 – **Or is the journey happening behind the back, in the silent alleys of the MRM? Is it possible that eventually there will become one MRM when one side becomes greater than the other side?**
#One side is already far greater than the other. I note that EM is now on its 67th Group in Auckland alone – Every City and some big towns have their own EM – Add that to the likes of Fathers Trust -/- Shore Fathers -/- Manalive -/- Sorry forgive me the very big CHCH centred South Island group is it Mens Trust -/- These Men -/-Fathers exceed us Political types by many 1000’s – They will lead simply because they learn to WORK together as part of their weekly meetings -/- If somebody was clever enough to bring trhese guys into the political arena the rabid feminists would not stand a chance but the femininists would be aciladed
5 – **And which side will prevail in this global world that is fast moving towards a world never seen before?**
# As 4
Far to polerised
1 – Either work with feminists or work against feminists.
#Yes I beleive we need to work with the feminists – What was lacking in last nights discussion insulted their offer by simply accepting it – We need to build the parametres for negotiation – I expressed some last night
2 – One side would be happy with negotiation while the other side expects you to surrender your soul as if you have been captured and fear torture.
#You are not clear here which is which but I beleive the invite to the Eastern Womens thing is a test and a trap – Many of the Women would not realise but they will most certainly support the organisors given half a chance
Fair enough
1 – women are reluctant to put down the cause to care for women just to suit the MRM.
#Here is the place to show some respect for eachother and make it clear what we will not put down and want back
Thanks Julie – Brilliant peice of writing
Onward — Jim
Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com
Comment by Jim Bailey — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 7:02 pm
Illustrates my point made last night and again in post 5 above
Good-Ol-Girls-Network-on-shelter-providers
Onward – Jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 7:34 pm
Jim, thank-you for analysing my piece and finding good in it.
I just want to say something about the MND link and NZ. In NZ the women’s refuges are not receiving the money that is being collected for them. Instead the women’s groups who are lobbying for change are receiving it by being referrers. Very sad for the refuges.
Of course there is corruption in the women’s groups and some very high paying positions. But then some of these women receiving this high money have worked hard. It is corrupt as the prison system is. I hope you remember all the political disturbance over the salaries and bonuses experts were receiving?
Comment by julie — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 10:51 pm
I must add some more information about the refuges because I don’t want to knock them completely. They have worked hard also to get wages for their staff.
Not wanting to go against anything here but be fair.
America is a bit different to NZ. And then again not so different. Maybe I should say little on this. lol
Comment by julie — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 10:54 pm
Sadly most Womens Refuges NZ are biult on corrupt stats – Corruption breeds Corruption – If we get into bed with Corruption we also will breed it – There will be an element of Men who will get on board thinking simply to take leadership – Leadership that many well be considered honourable as do most of the Women in Womens Refuges – In the end they will realize as do many Women – But alse they have committed themselves – All the more reason to set the scene BEFORE presenting oneself – We must NOT aline with the corrupt
Onward — Jim
Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 1:03 am
Jim,
While I have no evidence to dispute your allegations concerning corrupt statistics within Women’s Refuges I do wonder what evidence you have for such a claim. I have significant contact with our local refuge and its a good office to call into for a coffee and chat. One thing that does impress me is any phone call, any person popping in they fill in a form which they load onto their database for statistics. It gives them good source of information for lobbying and seeking funds.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the end result is a bit of a fishing story but I do think it’s an idea we could copy. Probably people get double counted when they pass from refuge to refuge. Just Like Jimmy Bagnall counts his data of guys he helps more of us should record that info and we could add it together for our own lobbying and fundraising. I know I’ve had 89 discrete inquiries so far this year (I confess I don’t follow my own advice so I can’t tell you how many children that involves).
I’m sure the Ration shed sees a lot as well, Keep a tally and we can add them together sometime. What suits you, Calendar years, or from 1 April or otherwise? If we tidy up our own act we look more professional and organised. Funders like that as do politicians and others we wish to lobby.
Allan
Comment by allan Harvey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 11:14 am
In my view some of the things that need to happen for the MRM to become a force to be reckoned with are (not in any particular order):
a) Mobilise a broad basis of men (most current MRM proponents are victims of anti-male legislation or practices)
b) Define the “bottom lines” (do this without help from, or consultation with feminist)
c) Publicity stunts. Remember the bra burning feminists from the 70ies? They certainly got attention.
d) Unite. The MRM must unite in terms of goals, not organisationally.
Isn’t b) something we could define fairly quickly? How about a simple, quick 10 point list? IMHO, it is a prerequisite for d).
The fact that there are many MRM groups might be an advantage: it is highly probable that those orchestrating publicity stunts are unlikely those with whom the people who have the power to help improve things will seek a dialogue.
Our arguably biggest problem is the fact that most of us are strong minded and from all-sorts of different backgrounds. It’s too easy to focus on our differences and loose out-of-sight the common goals we share.
Comment by pete — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 2:36 pm
Another difficulty we have is that some are concerns about Fathers issues, some family matters, some kids rights to have contact with both parents. For me those three ideas grab me much more than Mens Rights Movement. Personally I feel more than empowered in my own rights and in no need of MRM.
Comment by allan Harvey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 4:43 pm
A note from Warren Heap – I have been asked to publish this on his behalf – Warren struggles with his disease daily so please respect his privacy – Especially as he is running things at home on his own (3 vibrant Boys)as Lorna is away attending to personal things in the Phillipines.
He is wrapped that many are continuing the much needed task to build many Mens Retreats
Warren says;
By the way, we referred 2 the refuge house as a retreat, and in 4 years shelted 118 fathers and children (included 72 odd childtren)
We didnt have children age restriction but had tough rules and immediate termination of clients from the house 4 breaches of the rules.
The only women refuge whom contacted us personslly first ,was a newly formed group in papakura.
They even wanted 2 come to our trustee meetings.
I denied them this and within 3 months i had a call from them asking us to supply a trailer and move the supposing abusive male partner out of the family home.
Ironically at a community meeting a councillor told us all, that (within about 14mths) this womens refuge had stopped operating, and had not spent a sum of granted funds according to their application purpose.
Most other women refuge groups i met (around 4) seemed to look upon as a threat to their funding success and kept telling groups there was no need for a men’s refuge as all men were the perpentrators of all violence…therefore they got what they deserved.
Maybe time has changed the womens refuge groups attitude towards us, i couldn’t answer that, but i doubt there attitude has shifted’
I have never protrayed an anti women attitude, and to do so is so wrong and terribly determineral to the children, but one should still i believe be wary given my experience mentioned above.
Regards Warren Heap
Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 5:22 pm
All including Julie and Allan-H
To suggest that NZ is so different to USA that its not really worth considering my post above is wrong – Much of what goes on here goes on overseas – In fact they learn from each other and take what suits them.
It seems we have forgotten the writtings and warnings of our very own Barbara Faithful and of course Erin Pizzey – Both well recorded on this site – Use the search engine to your right above – They did not do all the work and recording for us to go blindly ahead and co-operate with corruption
Onward – Jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 5:30 pm
Jim, I don’t really think anyone here is going to have much of a say except for Jim Bagnall and Paul C. The business of DV and FC are in a whole other ball game now.
I like Barbara a lot and Erin Prizzy is a great women who speaks out.
But in NZ we have many NEW heroines for the cause and many new males.
Comment by julie — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 7:18 pm
Julie,
Don’t kid yourself – Wisdom is always wisdom
Nothing will be gained by working with the corrupt
Onward – Jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 7:33 pm
Jim says,
Then best we all go in to a church and ask God to save us. lol
I think Clint Eastwood says it best, “Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya Punk?”
Because if you don’t think you can play the game then best sit on the side and pretend you are only good, for you took no risk and you took no chance and you didn’t try to change a thing and yet you think you sit on high.
I learnt a bit more about God. He make us in his image and to me that means
we have all that we need to make the world a better place if we choose.
……….
I do respect people who quit the game over ethics. Crickeys, I have quit a few times because the top is always corrupt. But I have grown up now and beleive the only way to change corruption is to be at the top.
Your thoughts are valued on this? What is Jim like? Do tell?
Are you judging from a high place or are you there amongst the few leading the way?
Comment by julie — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 8:24 pm
Julie,
You are making grand assumptions here
I to enjoy Clint Eastwood as humour
I most certainly do not put my trust in his movie wisdom
I have given you my reasoning and method to be cautious with this opertunity.
It seems it is wasted by those who think there is something to be gained by working with these people -/- Balls I say
Blow the opertunity we will if we simply bow as will be the case when one of us enters the door without setting the negotiating standards
As for Judging from High Places – I have given Warren Heaps experience, Barbara Faithfuls experience, Erin Pizzeys experience, several others experience, my own experience and I am considered Judging from High Places
Dodging the reasons put before one by resorting to Clint Eastwood movie wisdom and side stepping into religious waffle so as to go ahead blindly can hardly be considered wisdom
Onward – Jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 10:58 pm
Jim, do you forget I am the enemy? I have no more to say.
I posted and now I move on.
Comment by julie — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 11:42 pm
Julie,
I was not aware that you were the enemy
Onward – Jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 19th September 2008 @ 11:48 pm
Jim says,
I know this. But I would rather put myself here than challenge women I care for.
And I won’t challenge you. You can win any time you want. You can win even when you don’t care to.
I just put a post up about an event. No-one has to attend. Life will go on.
Comment by julie — Sat 20th September 2008 @ 12:17 am
Call for Womens Refuge Enquiry
Onward – Jim
Comment by Jim Bailey — Sat 20th September 2008 @ 10:04 am
Barbara is an amazing women Jim. No argument from me.
Yes, onwards Jim. Good luck with that. (sincerely)
Comment by julie — Sat 20th September 2008 @ 2:11 pm
I will use part of this thred in my upcoming book-Anyone can feed me precise information-that might both compound the stats or reveal the corruption
Dont waste this oppurtunity-its Happening
-Paddy da Pirate
Comment by Steve Flynn — Sun 21st September 2008 @ 3:52 am
Where is everyone in this country? Election time and not a peep about the men’s movement! Get out there. There was an item on 3 news tonight about family violence being up 29 percent, the cops and women were saying that it’s proof the it’s not ok thing is working well. Where was our side of the story? Not a thing about protection orders or anything! Get out there and be heard. It’s obvious emails etc don’t work. Get heard, don’t do anything bad just to get attention but make it an issue they can’t ignore!
Comment by Scott — Wed 1st October 2008 @ 6:44 pm
I tore down 2 posters of an All Black member wearing a white ribbon with the remarks, “C’mon men” today and threw them in the bin. The hospital staff were supportive of me. That was my protest today.
Also, they suggested I ask the hospital for records because they do get men coming in for DV.
Comment by julie — Wed 1st October 2008 @ 6:52 pm
ooohhh do that Julie. I am thinking about some kind of silent but very visual demonstration. Will keep you posted when finalised!
Comment by Scott — Wed 1st October 2008 @ 6:59 pm
Oooooh, do that Scott. I look forward to it.
Comment by julie — Wed 1st October 2008 @ 7:35 pm