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Discussions with United Future staff

Filed under: Child Support,Domestic Violence — Dr Dad @ 12:23 pm Wed 17th September 2008

Hi All

I thought everyone might be interested to read this discussion I have had with a United future staff member.

Any comments?

Viv Roberts


From: Vivian Paul Roberts [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, 12 September 2008 9:04 p.m.

This is turning into a very interesting discussion and I wonder how you would feel about me putting all of the discussion below onto a couple of well used websites within the mens movement. There are certainly some in the mens movement who are arguing for your position pretty much as you have outlined, and there are others who feel totally betrayed and outraged by the actions of Peter Dunne as we have talked about. I dont claim to be any kind of leader in the mens movement, in fact there cannot be any such position as getting the mens movement together is like herding cats, however I do I think I can represent the reasonable voice of the mens movement.

I think there are some things that UF could do to gain backing among the mens movement, I think it would go something like this:-
Peter Dunne making a strong statement to the effect that while he did have to go along with the changes that were made he thinks they were quite wrong and that he can see that it will lead to significant problems for many men. – You see the problem with that is that many guys will say that he should have resigned from his position rather than go along with that change if he beleived that.

I am not really aware of the ‘current review’ you mention, where can I read more about that?

You may be aware that many in the mens movement have felt so let down by the political process that they have started their own party
I am uncertain what to think about that, they asked me to stand locally but I dont really have the time. My feeling is that we dont need another party. I decided several years ago that I would never vote national or labour ever again because they are completely corrupt and Comrade Helens current actions just go to prove that. When Peter Dunne talked about common sense and looking after families he got my vote for 3 terms. I have not made up my mind how I am going to vote this time, but for me to vote UF it will take a very strong statement from Mr Dunne directly about the child support issue. For example, “Family law and child support in its current form is regularly killing men”. (That is in fact the truth)

So interesting discussion, thanks for having it with me so far.


Viv Roberts


Subject: RE: Form submission from website
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:35:13 +1200


I am well aware of the issue you speak of. The data-matching that you refer to means that IRD and customs have greater information sharing capability. This is not a change in policy, rather an operational matter that will allow both the IRD and customs better carry out their functions. It still does not mean that fathers with outstanding child support will be stopped at the border – in fact all it does is better identify the problems that exist within the current system.

You must understand that while Peter is Minister of Revenue he is responsible for the operation of IRD. For example while UF does not agree with the current tax regime (as you can see by our tax policy-which is vastly different from the existing tax policy) it is Peter’s responsibility to enforce compliance with the existing regime. The same situation exists with the current child support situation. Peter has worked extremely hard to get the current review underway especially considering the nature of the Govt he is doing it through

I really hope you can understand where we sit on this. I am very disappointed that you think the way you do about our position on this issue – it is extremely discouraging to work hard to put a set of policies together and fight through Govt hurdles to set up the review to have all that effort thrown back in our face.



From: Vivian Paul Roberts [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, 12 September 2008 12:43 p.m.

There were some changes to the IRD child support legislation not so long ago led by Mr Dunne that allow IRD to chase men much harder, I think the words he used were “liable parents MUST meet their obligations” – something like that. The truth is that many men are in dire situations which the current law does not recognise, and chasing them harder will only make things worse

I agree that the things you have set out would take the mens movement ahead but the ACTIONS already taken by Mr Dunne speak about 300 times louder than any words you give. The fact you are not aware of these issues underscores the problem.


Viv Roberts


Subject: RE: Form submission from website
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:40:43 +1200

Thanks for your reply Vivian

I do not know what you think Mr Dunne has done or not done in terms of child support, however, as I explained he has instigated a review to make child support fairer and more responsive to the concerns of fathers – this is despite opposition from the Government for such a review – we fought very hard for it.

Our stated policy is to:

Overhaul the child support system so that it is flexible enough to reflect the complexities of raising children when parents are separated and both parents contribute to the care of their children. Calculations may need to consider the income of both the custodial and liable parent, the cost of raising a child and the best way to measure care other than bed nights.

Also, UF has long campaigned for changes in the Family Court including a change in the law to a presumption of shared parenting in custody disputes as we believe it is in the best interests of the child to continue his/her relationship with both parents.

I do not understand the animosity towards UF considering we are probably the only party actually willing to stand up for the men’s movement and we have specific policies that address that.

Other policies include:

Rename and refocus the Ministry of Women’s Affairs to the Ministry of Gender Affairs because the specific needs of both genders co-exist and can only be addressed by recognising the effects that any policy has on both men and women.

Recognise the imperative for fathers to bond with their newborns by an extension of parental leave.

Kind regards,


From: Vivian Paul Roberts [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, 12 September 2008 11:25 a.m.

Thanks for the response which I did not expect, certainly so quickly. I have voted united future for the last 3 elections, maybe 4 I cant remember that long ago.

I am horrified by Mr Dunnes actions over the child support issue and genuinely believe we will see a significant rise in the number of men committing suicide as a direct result of those changes.
I am a GP in Hastings with experience in mental health and have been following these issues for some time. Men make up almost 3/4 of the suicides and NZs leading suicide researcher Annette Beautrais in Christchurch says that men are 9 times more likely to commit suicide “following relationship breakdown and legal difficulties” than any other time in their life. For that you can read – being ‘done to’ by the family court and child support.
This process kills something like 350 men each year, but I expect this figure will now rise.
I would love to dicuss these issues further with you if you think that might be helpful. As things stand at present my reading of the mens movement is that none of them will ever vote United again because of Mr Dunnes actions over the last year and no amount of promises will turn that around. I would love to be wrong about that.


Viv Roberts

> Subject: RE: Form submission from website
> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:31:59 +1200

> Hi Viv
> FYI. In response to your query:
> UnitedFuture wants to see changes to the child support system, to look
> at ways in which the system can be made fairer and enable and encourage
> both parents to stay involved in the lives of their children.
> UnitedFuture leader and Minister of Revenue Peter Dunne has recently
> ordered a review of the child support scheme to make it more responsive
> to factors such as shared care, the income levels of both parents and
> the costs of raising children.
> It is timely to reassess the formula, to ensure that it is flexible
> enough to reflect the complexities of raising children when the parents
> are separated and both parents contribute to the care of their children.
> Mr Dunne has asked his policy officials to examine a number of options
> for updating the child support system to deal with these and related
> concerns, and is now awaiting the report.
> I hope this answers some of your questions and you can at least be
> assured that something is being done to address your concerns.
> Regards,


  1. Viv,

    I admire your patience – Your thoughts are similar to mine

    Judy has come a long way since the New MP Warrent Heap – Jim Bagnall and I met years ago – It seems she did listen in the many meetings when we met her at Auckland Aiport.

    I voted UF several times but I am sure worried as you obviously are that Peter may well be the weak link

    As you say he needs to make his concept of so called Child Support very much clearer

    Peter will have a very hard time from Judith Collins if the 2 parties play a large part of the next Government

    Stay strong

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Wed 17th September 2008 @ 12:39 pm

  2. The question is can Dunne be trusted.

    Previous preformance is a good indicator of future preformance.What have United Failure delivered?

    Spin from United Failure doesnot change the fact that Peter Dunne, Suppoprted by Judy Turner has screwed dads over.

    To observe the UF response :

    I really hope you can understand where we sit on this. I am very disappointed that you think the way you do about our position on this issue – it is extremely discouraging to work hard to put a set of policies together and fight through Govt hurdles to set up the review to have all that effort thrown back in our face.

    Peter Dunne has organised an officals fest – IRD and the Families Commisariat- to rewrite CS policy. Having done this United Failure expect parents to be estatic. Reality is that the research/ review is prohibited ( By Dunnes Instruction) from challenging the basic assunptiomn that % of gross income formula assessment model ius based on.In plain English hes yet again ignoring the problem.

    I understand where UF sit.

    Claytons shared parenting and more punitive CS and we should all bend over and thank them for it.

    Viv, dont flush your vote down the Dunney.



    Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Wed 17th September 2008 @ 2:29 pm

  3. Peter Dunne is a sick joke, just like Clayton Cosgrove,
    and Dam O’Connor they are a total disgrace to the
    Saint Bedes Old Boys Association. They are pathetic wimps.
    Would a real bloke please stand up. Yeah right.
    They make me sick with their insidious lies!!
    Oh yes another point how many paid Liarbore scum are
    well paid spies in the fathers’ rights movement?
    Many will be shocked when I reveal their names !!!!!!!!
    No wonder the movement is going nowhere!!!!!!!!!!
    Charge them with treason against men and fathers
    struggling with a corrupt dirty rotten lying filthy
    family court !!

    Comment by dad4justice — Wed 17th September 2008 @ 7:59 pm

  4. The best thing for fathers and the fathers’ movement is if there is a significant increase in Dads LEAVING the country and no longer being virtual slaves to the governments. If the government brings in new legislation or procedures, it is because somebody is getting the better of them. There is a double whammy for the government if Dads leave the country, they must pay for the single mother families that they have created by all these unjust laws and they can no longer claw back wages from Dads. They well know that if Dads are stopped completely from leaving the country in a draconian way, there will be an unpleasant sideffect of a significant rise in murders and violence of estranged family members, which would create a much higher expense of more jails.
    Politicians are interested in their burgeoning personal expense accounts, air flight expenses are rocketing each year by our MPs (WHY DO WE NEED SO many MPs anyway, all business is handled by a chosen few ?????).
    This is where much of the CS goes, and this is the main reason for draconian CS laws
    Dads will have to wait until changes in the laws are forced on these feminised governments. Then we will get fair share of our kids and so will future Dads

    Comment by Perseus — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 8:32 am

  5. Perseus,
    Is this a wind up?
    What kind of plant are you?
    Perseus might be from the ancient Greek verb, perthein, “to waste, ravage, sack, destroy”.
    Is that your agenda?
    Children need their dads. Dissappearing somewhere internationally isn’t a way to parent.
    Peter Dunne has ensured that under the Hague Convention you will have only third world countries to go to. His Child Support demands will chase you round all the developed world.
    This site gets some stupid posts but this must be the doozy of the week.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 10:29 am

  6. perseus was the slayer of the female gorgon with snake heads !

    doing nothing is not an option for dads, we will just be reduced to slaves if we accept the status quo of CS, are you a government spy, allan harvey ?

    hague convention has hardly used so far you probably know. governments throughout the western world take kids away from dads deliberately purely for financial reasons, if we are good slaves then they let us have a few more hours with our kids after a few years, that is if the mothers do not disagree , which a high % do, and the law will never do anything to stop them disrupting

    Comment by Perseus — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 10:41 am

  7. Perseus,Well said

    Allan sides with the folk who Steal the funding to Father our Kids and then blames Fathers for not doing the Job (Labour Speak)

    Kids NEED Fathers is a true statement

    I have fought many a battle in many parts of the World to prove it is my focus

    My experience of trying to Father my own Son

    1st cost me heaps to secure the job
    2nd Paid mother to do BOTH jobs while she lay in the Sun week about and did my Fathering as well while working almost 24X7 when not with my Son
    3rd got to sick to work and earn the $dollars to continue doing the job and funding the X to do my job
    4th Eventually run out of money and drive over 8 more years of difficult health issues
    5th Now given Mum back my Son so she can do BOTH jobs
    6th Accuse WINZ of 8 years of ABUSE
    7th LABOUR lead men (Allan and Co)in our so called Mens-/-Fathers movement accuse me of runing away from my most important task

    And we wonder why MEN-/-DADs leave NZ in ever growing numbers

    As you say doing nothing is not an option

    Getting the rot out of the NZMens and Fathers movement would be BEST Choice option before stampeding those out who damage our Families

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 12:44 pm

  8. i think that there is room for both Allan’s “Be a good father philosophy” and a more radical, proactive approach in the Fathers’ movement, in fact battles MUST be fought on BOTH fronts for our war to succeed. Dads must be seen to be good parents as Allan says, AND we will HAVE to fight for our rights or NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE. All sorts of pressure will have to be applied to these twisted people who are destroying so much.

    You will never make an omelette without breaking a few shells !

    Maybe Allan has been turned to stone by looking at one of Medusa’s Gorgons

    Comment by Perseus — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 1:10 pm

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