MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Aisling Symes Disappearance

Filed under: General — Ministry of Men's Affairs @ 2:36 pm Fri 16th October 2009

This has been a horrible situation for Aisling’s family. Our hopes were with them and we now grieve with them for their tragic loss.

Sadly, the case provided another platform for institutional sexism in news reports that police were focusing on local “child-related offending” and people of interest in this regard. For the public this will have evoked suspicion mainly of males. That in itself may have been fair enough even though the only evidence of anyone else’s involvement concerned an Asian woman who was seen to interact with Aisling just before she disappeared yet failed to come forward. However, the police then specifically appealed to the community not to persecute Asian women whereas they did not urge the same restraint regarding men, for example, those who may at some time have been accused (falsely or otherwise) of sex offences, or to emphasize that there was absolutely no evidence that any male was involved in Aisling’s disappearance. Neither did police (or media) consider it necessary to mention that snatching of babies and very young children is most often done by women for various psychopathological reasons.

In fact, the woman seen with Aisling was known to have psychological problems and a history of enticing children into a car. Nevertheless, police (and/or media) were happy to allow the public to develop suspicion about men. In truth, the vast majority of men have a strong sense of social responsibility and if they saw a young child unattended on the footpath they would ensure the child was returned to parental supervision. Nobody cared to mention that though.

Actually, I was generally impressed with the main detective who spoke to the media. For example, on television he invited anyone “looking after” Aisling to return her to the care of her parents. This wording was wise, capable of encouraging a mentally unstable abductor to see him/herself in a positive light and to feel safe enough to return the girl. Sadly, the news interviewers ignored his wise direction and persisted instead with suggestions of paedophile offending.

Innocent circumstances were always the most likely explanation for Aisling’s disappearance. Due to heavy rain a nearby stream was so flooded that it could not initially be searched safely. All possible ways of being washed away should have been fully ruled out before casting aspersions on others. Now that an innocent explanation has turned out to be the correct one, have we heard anything from police to repair the damage done to the image of males through their investigation? Of course not; men don’t matter. But don’t be surprised if we hear further protective statements to repair the reputation of Asian women. They evidently matter much more.


  1. Well put. Men do tend to be the scapegoats for everything anyone does wrong. Sadly due to the unebated trashing of men and the ideology that all men are abusers, rapists and paedophiles it is going to take a long time to uncover the truth through the lies and repair the damage to the male image. A fight worth fighting for, and we will continue doing so.

    Comment by Bryan — Fri 16th October 2009 @ 3:32 pm

  2. I agree. I thought of the same thing when I kept hearing of the protective aura surrounding the Asian ‘woman’. Would it have been so protective if it had been a young man of any race? If they are looking for someone who does not come forward are they able to publish a sketch according to the described appearance? Or did they not do this because it was a woman they were looking for.

    Comment by Trisha — Fri 16th October 2009 @ 4:19 pm

  3. My observation is this:
    The justice system selectively targets a family to punish as it suits them or the condition.

    For instance the maori couple who lost their only child after their boat capsized were prosecuted and narrowly escaped a jail term. reason for prosecution: they did not take all safety measure before heading to waters. When recently a samoan family lost all their 4 kids because no one attended to the cooking dish no prosecution ensued.

    In this case as well no prosecution ensued for letting the child ‘unsafe’ outside in a raining day.

    The reason for both cases where prosecution was not called for is that communities gathered behind the families and prosecution will warrant a community backlash and may become conscience about the aberration of the protective system.

    How could anyone add more grief to a family who has just lost a child by way of prosecution and jail is beyond my imagination.

    The repressive over protective system needs dismantly because their state blessed abuse is so damaging that it threatens social coehesion.

    Comment by tren Christchurch — Fri 16th October 2009 @ 4:34 pm

  4. Dear Hans,
    you are dead right about the “values” driving “our” newspapers, or is it profit-streak?.

    But you are taking the profit media too seriously. They use the best quality newsprint and ink and printing fonts, but skimp on reporters and editing.

    ROI (Return On Investment) is never skimped on, it is the biggest issue in selecting which stories to print and how much coverage to give.

    Investigative journalism almost died with the large manipulative fines dished out by familycaught, so that NZ edited papers are more tuned into entertainment, than public information or education on social issues.

    In any case, the accountability really stops with the people who purchase the compost destined newsprint. Their purchasing decisions set the framework within which the newspaper proprietors gauge the ROI of the stories lying on their cutting room table.

    I also seem to remember that the NZ shareholders willingly sold out to the new breed of highly geared (was it a Volkswagon starting with P fer poor?) entrepeneurs. All the accountability threads seem to point back to us….

    The familycaught “judges” only seem to be comfortable admitting profit-media into their temples of commerce and cash-registers. What can you expect from lawyers wearing judges’ clothes? I guess the “judges” work on the same ROI measure as the newspaper editors. Few “judges” seem able to work under the gaze of independant media – is accountability too much of a challenge?

    With no training worth speaking of, between working as a legal worker and starting work as a “judge”, there is no way that a cunning lawyer could ever flower into a wise judge, able to resist temptations of profit.

    Study shows little interest by news media in familycaught reporting

    Anyway, I will go back to estimating the BMI of the skimpily dressed page 3 girl, with the biggest ROI sorry BMI sorry m….. glands….. Why did I pay for that newspaper?

    Anyway, it’s your vote that really counts, or it would if you thought more about it, before you cast it….

    Cheers, MurrayBacon AntiSocialPD.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 16th October 2009 @ 9:19 pm

  5. Come on you guys. Have you no respect at all. The child was just buried today and already you have to start something!!

    It was mainly about a woman at first. So unfortunatly men you had no lime lite at the begining of this at all!! Boo hoo. Dont get me wrong I am mainly for the men. But this is not your fight!!

    How would you feel if your child went missing?? Would you not start to think the worst?? Who took her and was it male or female?? Did she go walk about with someone or was she forced to go??

    The key point is, this child was found untouched by any human. Which leads me to believe at that point in time society was decent in the sence not to harm a child.

    On the other hand a child was taken tradically by no fault of human, but of nature.

    So therefore it is end of story!! The little angle can rest now in peace. But as long as there are people like you with nothing better to do than moan because you could have a reputation crumbled because of this. You are wrong to even want to go there.

    Police had to start some where!! That Asian lady was sited talking to her. If that was your child, would not suspect her?? It doesnt make me think any different of Asian ladies. She was only a suspect and untill proven guilty, I dont judge!! There was an odd man walking around that looked suspicious, would not think of him as a suspect also. If that was your child you would be the harshest critic about anyone.

    You make things worse by even starting a colum like this. It almost sounded like you were gutted that men didnt get a rave wether good or bad!!

    Let this one go as the fight had already taken place and it was between a 2 year old girl and nature and she lost!! But not in vain. She won in the end because people actually cared about her. No one wanted to harm her at all!! Both male or female. We all cared!!

    Let her rest in peace!!

    Comment by Taurbee — Fri 16th October 2009 @ 10:08 pm

  6. “Taurbee” – Whatever you think I wrote doesn’t seem closely related to what I did write!

    It is important that someone points out the applications of male-bashing beliefs that predominate in our society, and differences between the care and concern shown to women (in this case Asian women) and women’s reputation versus that for men. In this case not a single word was reported to be uttered by police to discourage premature blame or retributive violence against males, yet such cautions were repeatedly issued regarding the class of people for which there was actually evidence one of their number might have been involved. When unexplained cases like this end up being found to have innocent causes or to have been caused through women’s wrongdoing, society is carelessly left with the damaging associations that were built up during the investigation, i.e. associations between men and wrongdoing. Portrayal of men in these situation belies the true statistics between male and female offending, fails to acknowledge the great predominance of pro-social responsibility in most men, and instead forms increasing layers of anti-male stereotyping and discrimination. One day, police and other officials may take the trouble to acknowledge and to repair any unwarranted damage caused to the male gender through their suggestions during an investigation. Until that day, it will be up to people like us to try to do so.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sat 17th October 2009 @ 10:22 am

  7. Hans,

    Im sorry but you seriously need to take a holiday!! Go smell some fresh air and walk away from the PC. It is people like you that try and fight this battle, but you are actually making things worse!! It is not important Hans at all. To fight something where a fight is not needed. Were you affected personally?? No you werent. You were just bored and decided to bring up something that is actually nothing!!

    I seriously think you dont know what is important or not!! Because what was important here Hans is that you didnt need to say or do anything!! There was no need for your jargon to be brought up. Some times it is ok to think of something, but not express it. Or more to the point choose your timing when you you are to fight for something. But to bring it up over a 2yr old child who died is almost selfish!!

    I spoke to two men today about this and they both think you have a problem!! Those words werent used exactly, but I have to be nice. Have you been affected in your life personally that makes you feel like you should start things? Were you accused of being a pedophile or something in your lifetime?? I dont know one male that is affected by what media say or do towards men. They hear about, its not happening to them, so they continue life as normal.

    You constantly remind people about media and society and what people think about men. Is that not doing damage to reputation as well?? If I make a mistake in life, I try to correct it. By maybe making it right!! Not reminding people of what I did wrong, but showing people that it was a mistake and that I am not a horrible person. I just made a bad choice. So therefore I show them what good I can do. Before long its old news and I can continue on with my life. And if people choose not to forget, then the problem is with them. Not me!!

    Men get bashed around in the media. Women get classed sometimes as tarts, hores or what ever the wording is. Dosnt affect me one bit. Life is too short to even worry as it dosnt affect me. And not my partner, nor brother, nor father, nor any male in my family!! They are loved and love others and that all that matters to us!!

    Comment by Taurbee — Sat 17th October 2009 @ 11:02 am

  8. …Baa
    Your two-man survey and the weight that you attribute to your findings speaks more about you than the subject discussed here.
    What you call ‘male bashing’ is offensive to decent men and is a crime.
    Tell me please… What don’t you know and what haven’t you experienced?
    Although I’m confident of the answers to those questions already, I’m hoping you might think long enough to stop going …Baa

    Comment by SicKofNZ — Sat 17th October 2009 @ 11:21 am

  9. LOL.

    Comment by Taurbee — Sat 17th October 2009 @ 5:45 pm

  10. As soon as you go personal you lose Taurbee.

    On another note, when it was discovered that the child had died accidentally, a woman on TV1 news commented that “it was a relief – at least she hadn’t been snatched”. The news probably reported this because they felt it was a common sentiment. Personally, I thought it would have been far better if she had been snatched. The possibility of recovering her alive and well would then have remained open.

    There’s something bizarre about the imaginations of so many people that they prefer a young child be found dead over falling victim to some dark force (and there’s no disguising they associate this dark force with aberrant masculinity). I don’t think we’re far away from sacrificing live chickens while we dance around night-time fires.

    Comment by rc — Sat 17th October 2009 @ 6:35 pm

  11. Hmm not personal RC, but when ever something tragic happens, it is only human to imagine what you would do or how you would handle a situation! We all at some point in our lifetime try to put ourselves into another persons shoes!! If thats how you mean.
    And I dont agree entirely about loosing! Because there was nothing to fight for! Not personal. Didint happen to me.

    Just because a man may have been mentioned in a good or bad way dosnt mean that we all look at our male family members and think any more or any less of them!And that goes for males outside of the family. It is what happened in that situation at that point in time. I would judge that male if he had done wrong. Not every other male. And that goes for women too!!

    Thats where I think men and women have to stop and look at the bigger picture! Its judgment on the person that did wrong, not the whole male or female population! Well thats my opinion and many others I know.

    My whole point to this entire column, is pick in choose your times to speak, to fight for something. I feel that it was inapropriate to do so on the day of Aislings funeral and also for the situation that happened. Some times we need to get over ourselves as humans and stop and smell the roses! On the day of her funeral and every other day up untill. Man and women were at peace with each other, working side by side to help. And suddenly because she was found and it was all over, reality set in and the segregation started again between man n women. Its just not the case at all. Men are no less than us women in this situation. But to start a column like this and say what Hans said, I might as well just agree with him and tell him what he wants to hear perhaps!!

    Comment by Taurbee — Sat 17th October 2009 @ 9:03 pm

  12. “Taurbee” – I understand your objection to me writing about this while Aisling’s tragedy was still so fresh in everyone’s mind. I meant no disrespect, and in my post I specifically acknowledged our grief for her family.

    Timing is not as simple an issue as you suggest. Yesterday’s news is of little interest to anyone. If one is to make public statements hoping to impact on people’s awareness and views, one needs to make those statements as close as possible to the time that matters are still in the news. I actually wrote most of the piece days before Aisling was found, because I was aware of the “male bogeyman” story that was being encouraged, and of the double standards being demonstrated by officials in the concern they showed about social alienation caused by their suggestions. But at least I waited until after Aisling’s funeral. And for you I doubt it would have made much difference when I spoke up. As you stated: “…you didnt need to say or do anything!! There was no need for your jargon to be brought up. Some times it is ok to think of something, but not express it.” It’s inconvenient for you to hear the truth so you seek to censor the messenger.

    For you the matter seems unimportant. That seems to be a common response from women to many concerns expressed by the men’s movement. They’re being advantaged by feminist ideology so they prefer to believe there isn’t a problem with it. It’s understandable, and I guess many men took the same attitude in response to complaints by feminists prior to the 1970’s.

    Also common, I have found that women who come onto this site to disagree with something will soon abandon debate about the topic and instead resort to personal attacks and character assassination, just as you have done. As usual, violence (in this case emotional) is ok when it’s done to men. That’s ok; if I wasn’t prepared to be attacked I wouldn’t be in politics and I wouldn’t publish under my own name (what’s your name by the way?). I won’t sink to your level of suggesting personality deficits in you that may underlie your behaviour.

    To your credit you also continued to forward your own opinions actually related to the topic. I appreciate your opinions but I disagree with them.

    You claimed that when women are denigrated it doesn’t affect you one bit. “Life’s too short to even worry as it doesn’t affect me.” Well, I guess if other women had all taken your approach you would still be without the vote! Men are suffering and their exploitation, demonization, imprisonment and expulsion from families all continue unabated under feminist propaganda that has so effectively deceived the population. You have every right to prioritise the day-to-day enjoyment of your life over socio-political concerns, but I don’t respect any right you may claim to attack others for holding different priorities.

    By the way, this site is called “MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health”. Where else do you suggest someone might highlight social processes damaging to men? Nowhere, evidently, and that just about says it all.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 18th October 2009 @ 10:09 am

  13. I’m glad that my post has stimulated response and brought others to consider and to debate the issues at hand.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 18th October 2009 @ 10:16 am

  14. I would have parked a skip on top of the drain-cover (manhole?) or welded it down, to avoid it being a danger.
    Probably, my kids would have said “Dad- you should do something about that manhole cover because its dangerous.
    They would EXPECT me to be pro-active to protect them.
    But hey, I’m just a normal dad.

    And I resent being blamed and suspected for every child that comes to harm, because of my gender. I RESENT the assumption that because I am male I am a danger to everyone around me, especially to children.

    I am with Hans- those who label me as a child abuser- are themselves the abusers.

    Comment by John Brett — Mon 19th October 2009 @ 7:46 am

  15. Hans,

    Don’t get me wrong. It’s not a personal attack, as I don’t even know you. Glad we got that cleared up. Another thing to get cleared up is why I don’t use my real name. I don’t need too! Got nothing to gain, don’t need any fame. Something my mother taught me. She’s a writer! That may not make sense to you, but it does to me. Besides John Potter knows who I am and that’s all that matters! Whether I write something that makes a difference or not, I don’t have a need to be acknowledged by what I say.

    You mentioned politics! I hate this subject with a passion. Why you may ask? Its in my blood! I have a family history of politics and a lot of people I know have been hurt, reputations have been crushed and it’s a nasty world with politics in it. Maybe that’s why I got so passionate when you mentioned timing and politics! It explains why you mentioned something in the first place to do with Aisling Symes! That’s politics for you. Always got to grab the moment no matter how many people it may hurt, as long as you get a rave, you get acknowledged. Its also called power! People either love you or hate you! Harsh thing to say, but I have experienced it first hand Hans. Believe it or not, it’s true!

    When a person who is involved with politics writes a story and in the first paragraph they write sympathy or they say they show no disrespect or something involving feelings or emotions from the writer. It actually means they don’t give a toss. Really, it’s a way to try and cover up for what they are about to write. Its like asking for a pardon for what you are about to say or do!

    For you Hans to say and I quote “But at least I waited until after Aisling’s funeral”. Is as rude as saying, well at least I acknowledge the fact this little girl was alive, BUT I need to use her story as another way to get my point across to people! For what reason I don’t know why you felt there was an issue.

    This story began about an Asian Lady. Not about MEN! And I shout that word out loud! You mentioned and I quote “Now that an innocent explanation has turned out to be the correct one, have we heard anything from police to repair the damage done to the image of males through their investigation”. What image Hans has been damaged? Honestly you are fighting something here that has no fight! Males haven’t been damaged here. Asian people haven’t been damaged here. Females haven’t been damaged here. A little girl was! I will say this over and over again! I don’t look at every male and think you are dangerous, I should fear you, my children should fear you, and everyone should fear you. Because of Aisling Symes tragedy, myself and others that have an opinion about this sad event, haven’t thought once OMG I have to beware of Asian women now because they may hurt us. And that is the same thought pattern for males also!

    You’re other comment and I quote “Of course not; men don’t matter. But don’t be surprised if we hear further protective statements to repair the reputation of Asian women. They evidently matter much more”.
    That is something my 5-year-old daughter would say Hans. Its another way of communication when she cant get her own way. Followed by her outburst of comments she throws a tantrum. Maybe you should too and let it all out. Because after she is done, she gets over the fact that she didn’t get her own way, life goes on and she doesn’t feel so dam hard done by! She realises she did matter, its just that she doesn’t have the power that she wants to get her own way all the time. She still maintains her reputation though and her sense of self! No one took that from her. Which is again what you are saying that has happened to males! I strongly disagree!

    “It’s inconvenient for you to hear the truth so you seek to censor the messenger”. Another quote by you Hans! I love a great debate. It is in my blood. I’m not a deaf person Hans. I hear you loud in clear, but I’m not listening to you! And I am never one to sweep something under the carpet. Never inconvenient either. The truth never scares me and change is always good. A great motto! Life would be very boring otherwise. Oh by the way who is the messenger? I am sure its not you Hans. If that’s so, you just lost by millions of votes to run for parliament as Prime Minister of New Zealand. However you may have just been accepted for a job as a minister in a little church in Bluff. Hmm nothing personal remember! I don’t know you!

    “For you the matter seems unimportant. That seems to be a common response from women to many concerns expressed by the men’s movement. They’re being advantaged by feminist ideology so they prefer to believe there isn’t a problem with it. It’s understandable, and I guess many men took the same attitude in response to complaints by feminists prior to the 1970’s”.
    Another quote by you Hans! What is wrong with you? I feel that you almost long for a nation of women in the North Island, and Men in the South Island. Its called segregation! Almost Nazi sounding! Yes something women went through along time ago. To be seen but not heard. Do as you’re told or you’ll be reprimanded. I don’t care literally. It happened and I don’t hate you for it Hans, nor blame you for it. It’s called history and its how we got here today! A fact! And you need to get over it! I could be nasty and say to males, what goes around comes around. But I’m not that way inclined like you have just suggested! Hans are you married? Honestly your ideas are far fetch from the real world. Yes you are allowed an opinion, but do you listen to what you write. Do you hear what you say? What men’s movement? Maybe I should create a web site for you Hans? That says “men only”. Women not allowed! This is a cruel world we live in, the sooner you realise this fact, the better. Women were hard done by for years. So what, we got it sweet now. But so have men!! It’s beautiful thing equality Hans. Makes for a nearly beautiful paradise. Now us women just need to work on upping our pay rise, making and doubling what men earn so that you can moan about something else. Hmm isn’t that what you call a sexist? Just putting that question out there? I never said anywhere Hans that the matter was unimportant. So don’t you dare go putting words in my mouth! Its all important. Its what matters to people whether we agree or not!

    “Also common, I have found that women who come onto this site to disagree with something will soon abandon debate about the topic and instead resort to personal attacks and character assassination, just as you have done. As usual, violence (in this case emotional) is ok when it’s done to men”.
    Another quote from you Hans. I should just smack your butt and get this over and done with. Is that what you want to hear? Character assassination sounds like something I write in books. Hmm the part where you say “I have found that women who come onto this site” you sound like you actually own this site. More to the point I think you hate women!! Literally! You talk about us like we shouldn’t be allowed to say or do anything. Which is leading me to believe you are sexist! Just a general observation! No personal attack! But if you want the world to love men, Hans, here’s a tip for you. Stop acting like you hate women and don’t talk about us like we aren’t allowed an opinion. What was the female to male ratio? Don’t quote me here but I think it was 5 to 1. Holly out numbered. Go women. But here’s another side to it all. Some women can be bitchy, nasty, controlling especially if we can’t get our own way. Well SOME women are like that.

    “To your credit you also continued to forward your own opinions actually related to the topic. I appreciate your opinions but I disagree with them”. Another quote Hans. I don’t want you to appreciate my opinions, you need to appreciate your own. I do with mine. I accept your opinions, I really don’t appreciate them.

    “You claimed that when women are denigrated it doesn’t affect you one bit. “Life’s too short to even worry as it doesn’t affect me.” Well, I guess if other women had all taken your approach you would still be without the vote!”
    Yes and another quote of yours Hans! Who cares what people think or say sometimes! Who cares about votes! There is always a place and time to care what people think. This was a time to reflect on something that happened. More to the point, how can we make this place safer for our children? Not against males, or asian people or females! It was a manhole infact that was talked about. How to make it safer! Once again no fight was needed Hans.

    “Men are suffering and their exploitation, demonization, imprisonment and expulsion from families all continue unabated under feminist propaganda that has so effectively deceived the population. You have every right to prioritise the day-to-day enjoyment of your life over socio-political concerns, but I don’t respect any right you may claim to attack others for holding different priorities”.
    Another famous quote from you Hans! Poor men, you know what I have nearly had enough of hearing about poor men from you. Who in general do you relate this to exactly? Is it you, your brother, your father. What male suffers so much that you feel that he is so dam hard done by? What about women Hans? Do you think we have it sweet also? Do you not think that everyday we women don’t get tired of waking up and having you men look at us like a piece of meat! Do you think that we enjoy being treated like a trophy that is to be mounted on the mantle piece and ogled at everyday? Hmm I could bitch and moan about everything males do to us females. But what’s the point!
    You talk about families and how men are expelled from them. Not all and yet you make it out for all males! It’s not our fault the law is like that! And believe me if we could change it, I’m sure we would too! Well a majority of us! I don’t like hearing about men being segregated from families because of the law. But in time it will change. Just not by your sexist opinions. You talk about imprisonment! Lets talk about how my daughter has rights as a 5 year old to go out and kill someone and literally get away with it shall we. Because at the end of the day as a parent it is my fault! Because I didn’t control my child! How can I control my child, when the government has allowed her freedom and rights at the age of 5. Maybe I should just give her a smack and let her know that if she is gonna do wrong, that is what she has to look forward to. The minute I had my daughter, I was imprisoned. Because anything she does I will pay the consequences for because she has rights and I’m just the parent. I should have stopped her. Huh what a joke, but you don’t see me complaining. I got to accept the fact that I’m in jail anyway! Until she is 18 and legal I have no choices or rights! And as for attacking others. Get over yourself. And don’t talk to me about socio-political concerns. What would you know! Maybe that’s a challenge. I don’t know. Always healthy though!

    “By the way, this site is called “MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health”. Where else do you suggest someone might highlight social processes damaging to men? Nowhere, evidently, and that just about says it all”.

    Another quote Hans and yes it is called MENZ. Not just for men but for women too! It’s always good to get two sides to a story. I’m pretty much for men, especially when it comes to families and children! But when a person makes out as if men are nothing and deserve everything, I got to speak my mind. Its selfish I know, but I just got to.

    You know the funny thing is Hans, you mentioned about not going off the topic and stick to the topic at hand. Well you did a pretty good job at doing that also. But I’m not complaining. This is a great deabte!

    I still go back to my first comment Hans, Bad timing, let her rest in peace!! Its not your fight this time!!

    Comment by Taurbee — Mon 19th October 2009 @ 11:53 pm

  16. John,

    I think the correct term you should use is “I’m only human”. No one is blaming a male for not putting something over that hole. No one thought ahead and came up with “one day a child might fall down that hole, so I’m going to cover it up today”. It’s the same as what the police or OSH think, until something is done wrong, we can’t act on it! Sad thing but true! Well many people think like that. Until something bad happens, it is o.k. for today.

    Everyone needs to be pro-active in life John. I don’t think ten million miles ahead of every step my daughter takes, but I try to make her world a safer place. I can’t control every day to day choices that other people make. I can only control mine! There are some things in life we can’t control and some things we cant understand. If we did control or understand everything, that would make us perfect and we are not!

    But not once did anybody blame you and or suspect you of harming a child. And the sooner males realise that, the sooner I think people will stop thinking so much and so hard about it. If you told a child everyday of their childhood life, that they were useless, they would grow up believing that. That’s where people need to relaise that being reminded and told of something everyday, they begin to believe it is true. But the minute you stop; is the minute they forget and everything becomes o.k.

    I resent the fact that many males think they are so hard done by because of other male choices. If you show a person, that you are uncomfortable with your child sitting on your lap in public, but at home it is o.k. Then will I suspect something is wrong! But if in public you are comfortable and don’t give a dam about what others think, and then at home the same. I won’t suspect a thing. My partner doesn’t give a dam what others think when he is with our daughter. If he wants to show her love and affection in public or at home, he does! Its called being a loving parent! The problem lies with the person whose mind is so far warped into thinking that something-intimate maybe going on. This is just an example of how to change societies way of thinking. How did everything change so much in the last 10 to 20 years? Everything became so dam PC for men not to love their children affectionately. It’s about going back to basics and just getting on with life. If my daughter chooses to climb a tree, she knows the consequences of maybe falling and hurting or breaking limbs. I can’t stand there and not allow her to climb a tree. It’s what being a kid is all about. But the minute she falls and hurts herself, people start to think what have the parents done to hurt her or how could they let her climb that tree. OMG ill just go wrap my child up in a cloth until she’s 18 and then release her into the wild shall I.

    My point is John your no more of a danger to my child than I am!

    Men need to stand up for themselves in a sense that, who cares how I love my child? it’s that I love her/him unconditionally. And if I want to give them an embraced big cuddle to show them that I do then I will and to hell what others think! If I want to kiss my child, because I am so happy that they just took their first step, then kiss them. To hell what others think! My dad never did, but no one judged him then. What has changed between my Dad kissing me as a child 30 odd years ago up until today when I kiss my child? Not that this has anything to do with Aisling Symes, but it is an example that men struggle with daily also. Only because men choose to allow society to control how you deal with your children. If every man rallied together kissed their children and hugged them all together in one place at one point in time. What do you think would happen? Society would have to change their way of thinking. We can’t cry abuse, we can’t cry rape, we can’t cry pedophile, and we can’t lock you all up, so we have to accept that it just happened and move on!

    I think everyone needs to realise we abuse ourselves more that we abuse others. Because we give a huge dam about what others think and so we restrict ourselves from living. We need to care less about what others think, and care more about what is right in front of us. Our children! Because if we don’t change our way of thinking now, imagine what our kids are going to grow up like. Heartless, don’t give a dam about their children, themselves or others. We won’t cry, laugh, we wont nothing. We will become emotionless humans because society built up a world of hate for men, women, each other!

    Aisling Symes didn’t get a chance to grow up, fall out of trees or even experience having a child herself, but she has just saved the lives of many other children and she doesn’t even know it. Now people will focus on manholes and covering them up. But it still had to have something bad happen for a change to be made. The only abuse I see in all of this is that we neglected to stop and think for a second. It’s not about us. It’s about her!

    Comment by Taurbee — Tue 20th October 2009 @ 10:36 am

  17. Hi Taurbe
    Unfortunatly men ARE presumed guilty, I am presumed guilty.
    I fought false allegations in the Family Court, my Lawyer advised me to plead guilty because “You can’t defend these things, you have to prove yopurself innocent”
    The charges were dropped, but I have had to put up barriers between myself and my grandchildren for my own protection.
    They have grown up without a grandad, because I am afraid to have any contact with them, knowing that allegations WOULD be made, and I WOULD be convicted.
    I was once Playcentre dad, Kindy Dad, in a Baby-sitting club, on School trips etc.
    Now I have learnt to avoid children, and I don’t see either of my sons planning to have families either.
    Re Aisling Symes- no she hasn’t saved anyone- there are lots of ways for children to come to harm, solo mums can only do so much- the root cause is the removal of loving, caring,fathers from the children’s lives which is the cause of the rising death toll.

    Comment by John Brett — Tue 20th October 2009 @ 11:12 am

  18. Hi John,

    I’m sorry that you experienced what you did. It makes it hard because you sound like a really good Dad! We need more of you at my daughters’ school. Especially on the PTA. And we promote fathers heavily to come to school events, school camps, everything. Dads are what make part of an experience fun. And kids feel safe with men. Us mums are just there to comfort them when they are hurt or scrape their knees. The Dads are there to teach them stuff outdoors and manly things. The kids love it. And so do we!

    My partner is also going through a tough time. He had a 5yr old son that he knew, due to a DNA test was his. At the beginning of this year, the mother to his son decided that she didn’t want to fight this fight anymore, because my partner never was with her and never wanted to be. So she took their son away from him. My partner wanted to get custody or visitation rights and when he sought advice from his lawyer and got the process rolling she brought up that he was not the father. So another DNA test was done and he is not the father of this child!
    It has been tough since the beginning of the year, but in no way has he put up barriers, because of this one bad experience with a woman. I have fought the battle with him the whole entire way, but I will not let him resort to me or even put me in that category as her! I would never stoop that low as to put another through the hurt and anguish she has caused not only my partner but also the child. I know this because I was in a marriage for 5 years with a child. And although my ex husband and I are now divorced, he can still see his daughter whenever, wherever he likes. They can talk whenever they like. Nothing has changed in the sense that we still parent her together. We just don’t live together. And as much as I can’t stand my ex husband, it has nothing to do with our daughter. We do what we do to make her life as comfortable as possible. Anything else that happens doesn’t happen in front of her! She always says she is the luckiest little girl in the world, because she has two dads and maybe one day two mums. And lots of family! I love the saying “you can never have enough family”. Whether blood related or not.

    Because of what you were put through, does not mean that you have to put up with it. Fight hard for what you believe in, and if you know you are innocent then that is all that matters. Do you want to avoid children or do you want to be with them? Do you want your sons not to have children or do you want them too? Children need not only parents, but grand parents too. It is a must for our children to have grandparents as grandparents teach our children values far more having than what a parent can give. Its something I won’t understand until I’m older and have grand children. Grand parents speak another tongue to our children. It’s hard to describe it, but when you see your children with grandparents, they talk together like they are exactly the same. Age means nothing and time means everything. It’s precious and you as a man and grandparent is precious!

    I feel very strongly about men and the sense of wanting to belong, but you need to fight for it as well. I cant as a female do it all by myself to try and bring back what was once a memory of families and togetherness!
    My dad is welcome in my house. He is welcome to share and love my children the way we do with them! He is aloud to touch, and cuddle and kiss and play with our children the way we do with them. He is a part of this family as much as you should be of yours. And not afraid to be apart of! Don’t let this one bad experience you have had, ruin your bond you could have with your children and grand children. Keep it positive!

    I was a solo mother for awhile John, but not once did I use my child as a bargaining chip between myself and my partner. And I don’t know too many other solo mums out there that would either. We are really against it! I think there are so many reasons why children are dying, but I don’t think it is just because of solo mums. There are many factors involved!

    Of course there are always dangers for children John, but that doesn’t mean that if something happens to a person, that is was all in vein. Most times it brings awareness and mostly good out of a sad situation. It always takes something bad to create awareness, but that is a fact of life.

    Comment by Taurbee — Tue 20th October 2009 @ 12:42 pm

  19. Hi Taurbee
    You misunderstand me- I have not put up barriers to women! anything but! I am now always cautions about children- and VERY CAUTIOUS about CYPS, Teachers anyone like that, in the same way I am cautions about gang members and criminals, because they are dangerous people. My fear is a very realistic and justifiable fear.
    I am not just one sad example- look up “Man Draught” on Google.
    I have made a great success of my life, afer “ditch the bitch day”. I have great partner, a great business, a lovely home, all new in the last 10 yrs, and my family is great.
    I choose to avoid lowlife, such as my ex, my eldest daughter, and similar people.
    Whether the next generation of women will ever find committed partners is up to them, not my problem.

    Comment by John Brett — Tue 20th October 2009 @ 6:12 pm

  20. Taurbee — Most of your reply to #7 is not worth the trouble to respond to. It suggests you are incapable of considering the issues at hand. You seem to be someone who can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you and you will resort to efforts to rubbish and humiliate those who dare to. Your claim that your 5-year-old would say the piece you referred to was ridiculous and simply shows you trying to belittle someone who expresses views you disagree with. Going on about your daughter throwing tantrums because she doesn’t get her own way seems to describe your own behaviour in this thread pretty well. (Projection is an interesting phenomenon.)

    I will merely reiterate the concern I saw fit to draw attention to. Authorities suggested wrongdoing was responsible for Aisling’s disappearance thereby causing damage to the reputation of and social trust in men and (in this case) Asian women. Damage to the reputation of the male gender certainly occurred as was evident in the news articles to which I provided links. The authorities then felt it worthwhile to encourage the public not to persecute Asian women but they saw no need, either during the investigation or afterwards when it turned out their bogeyman explanation had been wrong, to say anything in defence or in support of men. I simply point that out as sexism and as one of the many ways in which males are stereotyped and demonized in the current era.

    You believe that there is no problem and that I shouldn’t be allowed to speak up in the context of a tragedy like Aisling’s. Your denial of men’s denigration in the feminist era is comparable to denial of the Nazi holocaust, and I hope that others here notice your claims that men have nothing to complain about and give you some feedback. Personally, I won’t bother from now on because I can see that it is futile trying to continue reasonable debate with you.

    You are welcome to your opinion even though I disagree with it. You are of course welcome also to post more long, uninformed opinions that I am sure others will soon stop bothering to read. But please discontinue your personal abuse; that is against the rules here.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 20th October 2009 @ 6:40 pm

  21. Typical female troll thinking she alone is responsible for the kids and the dad is not important. NZ feminazis are trollingThis site

    Comment by Maninoz-no-cs — Wed 21st October 2009 @ 2:33 am

  22. Hi Maninoz,

    Your the reason why men have a bad name! Its called being sexist and condescending. To lower yourself to make a comment like that.

    I never said anywhere that men are not important or that I am responsible for kids alone! Far from it! We need the fathers to be involved, whether in a realtionship with the mother of a child or not. If you dont like the fact that we are allowed to give opinions on this site, then perhaps this site isnt for you! Just a thought!

    Im happy to receive criticism, or a great debate. But I dont like to be accused of something im not!

    Comment by Taurbee — Wed 21st October 2009 @ 8:14 am

  23. Did you consider that the comments from Maninoz-no-cs were directed at the first post in this thread rather than being about you?
    It’s not like he replied to a post of yours.
    I suspect you may have made an error.

    Comment by SicKofNZ — Wed 21st October 2009 @ 1:40 pm

  24. Hey sickofnz,

    Um nope. I dont think so!

    Comment by Taurbee — Wed 21st October 2009 @ 7:22 pm

  25. You know Taurbee, for someone who believes this thread was inappropriate, you seem to be doing your best to keep it going.

    Comment by mits — Thu 22nd October 2009 @ 9:18 am

  26. A good point mits.

    From the outset, it was clear to me that Hans’s point was so oblique to the personal tragedy of the Symes family as to be well outside of any charge of being disrespectful. I consider that should I lose someone close, it wouldn’t cross my mind to be offended by conversations about how the case handling by police and media affected others – I may even share these concerns.

    Taurbee’s objections, however, have the same stink of politicising that she claims to so deplore. She’s trying to use someone else’s tragedy as a means of shutting others up. It’s clear from her long tropes that she has a deep-seated animosity to the message that Hans is sending out, and it’s far more considered than a single misguided perception of breach of social protocol. Her writing is full of her ideas about how men should behave.

    Newsflash Taurbee. This is not 1950. The days when women dictated how everyone else should behave disappeared a long time ago.

    Comment by rc — Thu 22nd October 2009 @ 2:27 pm

  27. When you read the article Hans refers to it is mostly about a man doing nothing very interesting who gave his address to a searcher. A long way down there is a little mention of the person who was last seen talking to the girl being an Asian Woman. From an investigation point of view obviously the person last seen with the girl is vastly more interesting. It is clear that Han’s comments are well justified. I am pleased that his point was not derailed by Taurbee.

    I think Han’s other point about the dangers to children being raised by solo mothers needs more discussion. It is of premium importance to the NZ context.

    Being raised by a solo mother places far more risk to children than the boggie man commonly promoted.

    Comment by Dave — Thu 22nd October 2009 @ 3:56 pm

  28. In the US earlier this year a little girl was sexually assaulted and murdered.

    The assailant should have been apprehended several months earlier when clearly involved in the abduction and drugging of another little girl. It was gender that prevented that at the time and gender continued to drive disbelief even after the perpetrator was indicted.

    Toy Soldier dealt very well with the circumstances in a blog piece at the time.

    Our belief systems have been shaped by decades of discourse pushing a paradigm that is a complete distortion when applied to child sexual abuse.

    There are equivalent numbers of victims by gender. Girls are the most likely victim in the home or family setting. By definition outside these environments the most likely victim is a boy who is equally likely to be abused by either gender. For example if a teacher engages a student sexually it is three times as likely to involve a female teacher and male student than the reverse.

    Researchers in my country – Rebecca Deering(2005) and Lee Fitzroy(circa 2000) – have shown rates of female perpetration of child sexual abuse in the mid twenty percent range. It would not surprise if women were a third of perpetrators over all.

    In the UK over the past year or so a number of paedophile/porn rings have been busted. The apparently notable thing about it was that they were virtually all women. They were child care workers, teachers acquisitioning their victims on the job. They slip through the “working with children check” as if it’s got a box marked “Woman” and a tick means you pass.

    Fundamentally our scrutiny is all up the spout.

    Comment by gwallan — Sun 25th October 2009 @ 3:57 pm

  29. Taurbee,
    your comments that some children you know have a better understanding of certain men’s issues than Hans are insulting and highly provocative. To also judge and label him a woman hater whilst claiming to be fair and impartial appears not only illogical but also smacks further of gross ignorance. Bandying insults is no substitute for well reasoned thinking and respectful debate! It certainly doesn’t win me over, but the reverse. I think an apology from you for this to Hans is LONG overdue.
    To me such terrible behaviour just highlights and underscores the point that a growing number of men in NZ are increasingly aware of social and systemic abuse caused by such lack of empathy. To me you seem hoist in your own petard here Taurbee.
    I, as I’m sure many other men who post here could detail at length our lived experience of misandry over several decades AND to this day in NZ,
    But judging by recent evidence I have little faith you’d actually hear such. You even say something like that in this thread – that you’re listening but not hearing. That’s another illogical statement right there. People who listen well ACTUALLY DO HEAR what’s being said to them.
    Hans, I admire your patience and respect in the face of Taurbee’s condescending and long winded emotional abuse.
    I think you were correct in both your statements AND timing.
    I think for all her comments purporting to be supportive of men in general and fathers specifically, Taurbee also wholly misses the bigger picture and appears trapped in her own little attitudinal bubble. That misandry has existed for decades now and continues unabated appears to me and many other nz men self evident. Like I said anyone need only ask and I’ll provide factual evidence of it. Some will certainly listen, some will say they’re listening but show a gross lack of empathy and openness to hearing uncomfortabl truths though. Taurbee clearly falls into the latter category and appears to be here not to listen with an open heart and mind, but to defensively abusively agitate, provoke and basically waste our time. I add rationalisation and denial to the psychological trait of projection you accurately pointed out.
    I wish she were here and ready to hear your message, but sadly apparently not yet.

    Comment by Skeptik — Mon 26th October 2009 @ 2:44 am

  30. Taurbee,
    Wow! where do I start? So much verbiage from you, much of which I disagree with. For someone who claims to be supportive of men you certainly provoke and abuse with the put downs of Hans. Inferring that he can’t understaqnd something a child can is insulting, inflamatory and just plain rude.
    Then there’s all the stuff about men including Hans needing to get over themselves. Not a shred of compassion do I feel emenating from you with such an attitude.
    To say Hans is a woman hater is well, just crazy uninformed nonesense.
    For the record understand this. I have literally lost count of the number of good NZ men who’ve been villified and demonised without any good reason. I really don’t think you grasp the feminist driven oppressive anti-male air men in NZ knowingly or otherwise breath. I’ll give you lots of examples spanning decades of this process if you like.
    Here are just a few salient facts for starters –
    It’s official Air NZ policy that men can’t sit next to children they don’t know on their flights. Women can.
    Judiciary, probation services and allied professionals are REQUIRED by law to record ‘male assaults female’ as a crime. There’s no recording which clearly stipulates ‘female assaults male’. There’s a great way to hide female abuse and overly highlight mala bause right there. Imagine if it were ‘Maori assaults European’ but not the reverse on prison, probation and allied services logsheets.
    It seems to me that you are deep in denial, you’d rather issue put downs than hear what men like Hans are trying to say. You even say as much.

    Comment by Skeptik — Mon 26th October 2009 @ 2:51 am

  31. Taurbee is just being coy she loves the attention from you all that is why she keeps the thread going and she wants you to know her real name is Lynice Richards, and her contact number is [phone number removed by moderator]. Peace love and mung beans

    Comment by Hugs and Kisses — Tue 10th November 2009 @ 9:04 pm

  32. Hugs and Kisses, thanks for that information, assuming it’s correct. Not that I will be doing anything with it directly but it will be good for future reference should further support for male-bashing come from anyone with that name.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 10th November 2009 @ 9:28 pm

  33. And I remind all readers that my current picture shows one of the figures on the appalling, misandrist “DVA Cake” campaign funded by the BNZ and celebrated by police, Labour ministers and Women’s Refuge. The figures on the cake were all white men hitting children. No hint that women are also responsible for a significant proportion of physical domestic violence, not to mention psychological and emotional violence. Not even a hint that Maori might contribute a smidgen to our domestic violence statistics. Unbelievable sexism and racism, and even more incredible that both the Advertising Standards Authority and the Human Rights Commission dismissed men’s complaints against it and raised not a concern about it. What more evidence does anyone need of of institutionalized discrimination against men in NZ?

    Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 10th November 2009 @ 9:37 pm

  34. Its ok Lynice i’ve left your details as you wanted. Love ya mwah

    Comment by Hugs and Kisses — Tue 10th November 2009 @ 9:38 pm

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