Men Devalued in Suicide Strategy
Many people will have heard mention of the NZ Suicide Prevention Strategy but won’t be aware of exactly what it says, or that it was produced by the Ministry of Health and funded by our taxes. The Strategy was published in 2006 and is intended to be in place until 2016. Well, we all know that men suicide on average at about three times the rate that women do (actually, for some age groups it’s five to six times as much, and the figures will not include many other suicides made to look like accidents). No other population factor (e.g. age, race, socio-economic status) shows the large effect that gender does regarding risk of suicide (except for children under 10 years old who are understandably many times less likely to suicide than are all older age groups). But surprise, surprise, the Strategy contains not one single component specifically aimed at reducing male suicide or addressing the factors that lead men to suicide.
Almost every one of the Strategy’s seven goals contains a plan specifically related to reducing or managing Maori suicide, even though Maori to non-Maori suicide ratio (about 1.5) is much less than the male to female suicide ratio (3+). There are ten section headings in the Strategy report referring specifically to Maori suicide matters but exactly zero section headings specifically addressing men’s suicide matters. There are also sections devoted to Pacific suicide, Asian suicide, gay, lesbian and bisexual suicide, and migrant and refugee suicide, but not one devoted to men’s suicide.
Whoever wrote the Strategy appeared keen to ensure that no special recognition be given to men. Although mention is made that men suicide at about three times the rate of women, this is downplayed or its effect minimized through placement among other statements. For example:
It is evident in our data for suicide and hospitalisation for suicide attempt that some groups of New Zealanders do better than others. For example, young Maori men have higher rates of suicide than non-Maori men of the same age, Maori females have the highest rates of hospitalisation for suicide attempts, men die by suicide at approximately three times the rate of women, women are hospitalised for suicide attempts at approximately one and a half times the rate of men, and the most deprived geographic areas of New Zealand have much higher rates of suicide compared with the least deprived areas.
The section headed “Issues Relating to Gender” is incredible. Acknowledgement is made of higher suicide by men but the section then seeks to make it a non-issue. Firstly, it dismisses various explanations that had been suggested for high male suicide (though no mention was made of other realistic explanations such as the extent to which men, their roles and contribution have been denigrated under feminist ideology, the damage our family law causes to fathers’ relationships with their children, the fact that normal male responses to stress and threat have been painted as undesirable and in many cases made illegal). The section then tries to cast doubt on any link between gender and suicidality at all because women are said to be more prone to suicidal behaviour and to make more attempts. The “choice of method” is then put forward as the key gender difference, as though this has nothing to do with actual suicidality. The section then claims that the gender difference in deaths by suicide is reducing, so really, let’s just pretend gender isn’t important at all. Don’t believe me? Here’s the section:
Males die by suicide at a higher rate than females (see Figure 9). These findings have led to a number of speculations about the reasons for this. There have been suggestions that males may have a greater tendency to suicide than females because of gender differences in the prevalence of mental health problems (including schizophrenia, drug and alcohol abuse, externalizing behaviours and propensity to violence), cultural acceptability of male (as opposed to female) suicide, and psychosocial differences (including the protective role of children for females and male reluctance to seek help for emotional problems). These arguments linking gender with suicidality may be without foundation. In particular, studies in New Zealand and around the world have consistently shown that females are more prone to suicidal behaviour and make more suicide attempts than males.
The explanation for the higher rate of death by suicide for males may not lie with gender-related differences in tendencies to suicidal behaviour but, rather, with gender-related differences in the choice of method used, with females more likely to use overdosing and males more likely to use firearms, carbon monoxide poisoning and hanging. Furthermore, there is evidence in New Zealand that gender differences in suicide rates are reducing. The male to female sex ratio reached a peak in 1990-1992 (4.2 male deaths for every female death), then decreased to a ratio of 3.2 male deaths for every female death in 2001-2003 (Ministry of Health in press). This decline was largely explained by an increasing rate of hanging in younger women. These considerations suggest that it would be misleading to represent suicide as a “gender issue”. Rather, policies need to recognise that suicidal behaviour is an important issue for both genders and is expressed in gender-specific ways, with women making more suicide attempts and males more often dying by suicide.
In avoiding any special consideration for men (even though they are the most at-risk group for suicide), the Strategy’s logic twists and turns in order to place greater priority on women. It initially defines suicide not as suicide but also as attempted suicide, any self-harm and any thoughts about suicide, essentially treating women’s frequent suicidal gestures and even such things as self-cutting as equally important to men’s real suicide. (Oh well, they’re only men so who cares if they actually die?) The seven goals invented in the Strategy include one mainly relevant to women
3. improve the care of people who make non-fatal suicide attempts
but not one specifically relevant to male issues or needs. In addition, the “areas for action” statements proposed under each of the seven goals also include references to “suicide attempts” as if these are just as important as successful suicides in a suicide-prevention strategy, e.g:
promoting vigilance amongst families/whanau and friends of people who have made
suicide attempts to limit access to means of suicide
and
supporting people who have lost someone close to them by suicide, or who are affected by a suicide attempt
The Maori-specific “areas for action” were:
increasing, where appropriate, the role of cultural development as a protective factor
for Maoriincreasing awareness and application of Maori models of health.
establishing partnerships with hapu, iwi, Maori providers and communities to assist mainstream services in their responsiveness to Maori.
promoting and supporting research to expand the evidence base for Maori suicide prevention
But not one “area for action” specifically related to men’s suicide was considered necessary, any need men might have being relegated to general statements about “other population groups”. How is it than men can be cast aside even in an area where they are without any doubt the most needy of any group? Likely, the Clark government of the day instructed the Ministry of Health to prioritize women and Maori, and possibly to cover up the male need in case it alerted the population to the state’s exploitation and abuse of men that surely must contribute to their suicide rates. Perhaps men have just always been seen as disposable (sent to war etc) and the Strategy simply continued that social norm. Perhaps the actual writer(s) of the Strategy were rabid man-haters. Who knows? We can only stand back and shake our heads in wonder. But what is clear is that NZ’s Suicide Prevention Strategy sees men being not as deserving as other people to be saved from suicide, and has little interest in the underlying reasons that men feel so worthless as to kill themselves in such large numbers.
Correction: SPINZ did not write the strategy, this is a Ministry of Health document as is the action plan, see their website http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/indexmh/suicideprevention-strategyandplan
Comment by Russell Tuffery — Sun 1st August 2010 @ 7:51 pm
Hans, one time a man from ‘Family Planning’ who was working on men’s issues in ‘family planning’ said, what NZ needs is a place that holds men’s information. He said NZ IS, and it may already be done, setting up a men’s affairs but it will be like England where the men have done it themselves without being a part of parliament. It’s job is to present the men’s sides on government issues as does the women’s affairs, Maori something and Pacific something.
I am wondering if it’s possible that the reason there’s nothing about men is because men haven’t set anything up properly yet. I’m just wondering if there’s a men’s department somewhere, who can give the Health Department the research it needs and a plan on how men will solve men’s suicide issue.
I don’t know how close I am to the way it works or how far away, but I’m wondering.
Hey, have you ever thought maybe this is YOUR area of expertise or someone like you?
Comment by julie — Sun 1st August 2010 @ 8:37 pm
Oh, thanks for that correction; I have amended the post accordingly. I assumed it had come from SPINZ because I downloaded it from their website and the history talked about getting contracts from government.
I am however concerned that SPINZ would parade such a discriminatory document.
Thanks also for alerting me to the Action Plan. It maintains the same emphasis mainly on reducing Maori suicide, then non-fatal attempts and gestures, and even a special goal for reducing suicide in the Pacific population, but not a single goal or item specifically mentioning men or their needs relevant to suicide.
Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 1st August 2010 @ 8:43 pm
I agree, we need a ‘Health department for fathers’ as the government don’t have one…
Fathers are not guaranteed inclusion in pre birth services like scans and midwife visits. Only recently they have allowed fathers into ‘special mother units’ at maternity wards. They don’t recognise PND as having any effect on men and don’t even allow fathers to request a paternity test.
There is little support available for the men after an abortion or the loss of a baby. To their credit, many of the groups in these areas welcome men, but they don’t usually have any specific resources for men. In some cases fathers are just told to pay the IRD and deprived of access to their reason for being.
If those dads were guaranteed access, it would improve everything.
There is virtually no support for men who are victims of domestic violence, nor much in the way of support for the children they now probably care for. It is assumed that these possibly young dads will do it all on their own.
There have been gains at the ‘Inclusion’ end for young dads – money was set aside in the budget for teen dads, recently the Thrive initiative invited young dads into their research and the Waiakere Teen Dads Project is ongoing and amazing…
Hopefully more fathers will get to bond with their babys, less guys will be caught in the traps, it will be the best investment and we’ll all be better for it!
Comment by Real Kiwi — Sun 1st August 2010 @ 11:47 pm
Thanks again Hans for sterling work.
The saddest part of all of this is that there’s a pile of research that shows people who have a sense of belonging to a community are bolstered AGAINST being suicidal when whacked by a distressful life event.
Yet as you so clearly show the general population of MEN are ACTIVELY ALIENATED from the health professional community by these kinds of horribly insensitive documents!
So the message the document gives is MEN aren’t members of the community cared for by the author and all those who follow the author’s ideology.
Scary!
Comment by Skeptik — Tue 3rd August 2010 @ 2:29 am
Julie – I am reading your response above with some dismay. I don’t understand why there is a woman’s and a man’s “department”. Law is law and it applies to everyone equally. It is a great misconception of feminists that women are somehow special or unique and need special treatment under the law. And it would be equally a mistake to create department for men for further special treatment. The best government is a small one, and by creating all these special interest groups and subdividing up all the beneficiaries only gives more power to the government and less to its constituents. Basically, if you’re irresponsible, then you should suffer consequences for your irresponsibility. And if your responsible, then you should be rewarded for it. The bigger the government becomes and the more special interest groups it appeases, the more irresponsible people are rewarded and responsible people are punished. Just the opposite of what promotes civilization. Then oppression starts. That’s where we are now. I’m trying to encourage people on this website to abandon the government as a solution to their problems because it doesn’t work. Currently, the governments in the developed world are so large and nebulous, they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The governments have become so big that the only way to manage them is to eliminate them and start over. Creating more government agencies is not the solution, as it only promotes devisiveness and laziness and ever expanding and inefficient bureaucracies. The place for men’s and women’s “information” is the scientific community – not a government agency. Just my two cents.
Comment by Darryl X — Tue 3rd August 2010 @ 5:59 am
And as usual, I’m the first one to plead ignorance about New Zealand and its government, so maybe I’m missing something or don’t understand. But I see how things have gone in the US, and everytime a government agency is created to do something, it gets screwed up and in a real bad way. I actually used to be a strong advocate of government until I aged and matured and learned how irresponsible and inefficient it is and how it usually only exacerbated problems or creates more problems than it solves.
Comment by Darryl X — Tue 3rd August 2010 @ 6:06 am
Firstly, thanks for saying….
I understand your stand Darryl X and I agree with what you say about government.
I suppose you can encourage people to leave NZ for better paying jobs, less taxes, men-friendlier countries, and anti big government. But unfortunately that won’t stop the wheels from turning.
You can educate people, like you do, and encourage them to dislike ‘big government’ …. even get them ready for change and ready to change when it’s time.
But, I think in someways, a lot of people don’t see themselves as building a bigger government but rather a community.
At one stage we had villages and there’s many people in NZ (men and women) who remember this. At the top was God (we IMO, think of it as God or Good as in God’s laws or man/woman’s good policies) ….. under that nature and history, although that may have been equal to some extent …. then under these a hierarchy with high priests, women’s commission, blacksmith (men’s working commission) and then everyone else.
Now we look to a vertical system instead of a horizontal hierarchy with everyone equally having some sort of commission that cares for them.
You might hear some feminists, although they aren’t really feminists because they don’t believe women should be the head of a hierarchy, say, “We are waiting for men at the table”. What they mean is, “All the commissions are there except men’s”. We have the unions, we have the family’s, we have the children’s, we even have the rugby’s but no men’s. Oh, and the women’s.
It can be seen as, “Big government’ or it can be seen as ‘community’. It can be that men will say, “No!” to big government but they won’t say “No!” to community. IMHO, of course. 🙂
Maybe that’s what needs to happen, for the community to come together and when they do, maybe the government won’t be needed any more because it is a vertical system and government is a hierarchy system.
I don’t know how long all this will take but I know being anti progress doesn’t stop progress. The wheels keep turning …….
Comment by julie — Tue 3rd August 2010 @ 10:08 am
Sounds good. But if people are going to be “at the table” so to speak, then they need to think about others than themselves. Even if men are not represented, if people were thinking in less than self-serving ways then men wouldn’t need to be represented because women would be thinking of the consequences to their actions. If there are parties represented at the table that have positions that can have such negative impact on civilization, then maybe they shouldn’t be there because then the dynamic becomes either your at the table or your screwed and that’s a very adversarial relationship to those around you and a system like that is a non-starter destined for failure and catastrophe. If you have to be at the table or else your going to die, then that’s a table you don’t want to be at. It’s very manipulative and destructive. A situation analagous to my concerns is breathing. Humans demonstrate what’s referred to as a positive pressure breathing system – that is our lungs fill with air when our muscles RELAX, which is characteristic of organisms that live long. Other organisms, like frogs for instance, demonstrate a negative pressure breathing system, which means their lungs only fill with air when their muscles actively contract and draw in the air. It requires concerted effort. These organism don’t live long. If we are going to be a community, then we have to apply a positive pressure system, not negative. The community you’ve described is a negative pressure system that is adversarial and unpleasant. I don’t deal with anyone (let alone women) when I am perpetually threatened if I don’t appease their demand that I sit at a table and negotiate or else. This is true with my current job supervised by a female psychopath and with my marriage, in which my ex-wife tried to kill me many times because I was not sensitive to her emotions and feelings. When my wife snatched our children and ran off with another man, I made a couple attempts to interact with her, but she was holding our children hostage for ransom and constantly threatening, so I just walked away (haven’t seen my children in almost four years). She got what she wanted, but the idiot doesn’t understand that its value will decline rapidly not just for herself but for our children and me and everyone else. And me and our children didn’t get what we needed (which is each other) and never will because as long as we are separated, my ex-wife’s addiction to power and control (and sex) is satisfied. Until women assume a responsible place in the community (and they haven’t), there will be no community and no civilization. When parties come to a table to negotiate or meet or organize, the first thing they are supposed to ask is what can I do for you. NOT what can you do for me or else. Feminists adopted the latter philosophy from the very beginning. They do nothing for anyone else and just take take take. They have absolute power and control and wield them irresponsibly. Power and control and neurotransmitters associated with them are addictive, and in the true spirit of addiction, the feminists manipulate and lie and steal to satisfy that addiction. These are not community members, and must be destroyed.
Comment by Darryl X — Tue 3rd August 2010 @ 10:56 am
Female attempts at suicide are overwhelmingly by women with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). BPD is the only gender specific disorder with about three quartes of BP’s being female. Most of their attempts are just that and not actual intentions. The real purpose of their suicide threats is to cause dispair in the spouse and children. About two or three times a week (typically) they threaten their spouse or children that they will kill themselves. Its a very serious condition. As bizarre as it sounds, it is real.
Comment by Larry — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 10:15 am
All the women I know who have killed themselves and when young, those that attempted but didn’t succeed, weren’t threatening anyone nor diagnosed with personality disorders.
Some were doing great in life and then all of a sudden things got too much for them. Some I feel were just weak and didn’t get the support they needed (solo mothers with 2 or more children)and others had troubled hearts and minds while going through the hard teenage years.
The age of worry for males is between 17 – 24 because this age group has the highest rate of suicide.
I felt sad when people I knew did it and even sadder for my younger sister because more of her friends committed suicide than mine and now I worry for one of my sons because he’s having friends do it.
One of my son’s best friend’s had his young sister and young lovely girlfriend kill themselves in the same week two months ago. Then there was another young male friend around the corner of my home who killed himself a couple of weeks before or after. That’s 3 on our street in such a short time.
I think all suicides and attempts and thoughts should be taken serious no matter who does it. But I can understand it would do your head in having someone threatening you saying, “If you don’t stay with me or do what I say, I’ll kill myself”. That’s shocking!!!!
Comment by julie — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 11:17 am
Larry, you are spot on. Most attempted suicides by women are insincere and manipulative – they are forms or expressions of emotional terrorism against family members. Most women who attempt suicide (sincere or not) (and most women for that matter) suffer from sever mental illness. There used to be laws that protected men from the mental illness that is women, but no more. Not only that, those laws actually indulge, enable and reward that mental illness. They certainly don’t discourage it. When so much of the system and our culture revolves around promotion of women and their mental illness, that’s the kind of culture you get.
Comment by Darryl X — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 11:21 am
Sounds like a low day today Darryl. Hang in there. 🙂
Comment by julie — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 11:48 am
I understand that women are particularly vulnerable to our commercial culture and its trappings. And that has not helped them – especially when it comes to suicide attempts – we promote their chronic victimhood, which is already part of their behavioral disposition, as part of our markets. That being said, most of the commercial trappings of our present culture in response to which some women attempt suicide are the inventions of women. You may not appreciate it, but magazines like Cosmopolitan and Red Book (which promote idealized versions of women to which they should never be beholden and contribute to Vanessa’s body image issues she wrote about) were started by Gloria Steinem (I think that is the name of the radical feminist nut), who was a CIA (US Central Intelligence Agency) agent and funded to subvert and manipulate the female population to protect the US from communism (we needed to get control of them before the “communists” – God, how stupid can anyone be). Didn’t know that? Check it out. It’s a fascinating story – and true. That being said, women still have choices, and they choose to indulge things like Cosmopolitan and Redbook and the government sponsored Divorce Industry and the culture they promote, instead of honoring their husbands and God. So, I still have no sympathy. My sympathies are with men because their suicide attempts (in the US successful attempts exceed those of women by a multiple of four) are in response to real practical circumstances and are sincere and have much more profound implications for the future of civilization. They do not reflect mental illness or emotional problems. All the men I know who have committed suicide successfully did so because they lost everything, including their children and all the mechanisms they need to recover from their practical circumstances. They simply had no choice but to commit suicide. They were looking at spending the rest of their (short) lives either on the street or in prison. Nothing left to live for, literally. Their practical circumstances really are that bad that suicide is the best option they have. I know, I’ve been there. And I won’t try suicide again, not because I don’t want to die or somehow have something magically to live for in this God-foresaken post-feminist-dystopian-police-state-nuckle-scraping-republican-troglodite-hell, but because I’m too much of a coward to do it again. That’s why more men don’t attempt suicide in response to their situations – not because they have something to magically live for, but because suicide requires a lot of balls, it’s a mess, and it requires someone with considerable courage to take themselves out of the population when they realize how revialed and hated and useless they are. Some have it and some don’t.
Comment by Darryl X — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 11:50 am
Thanks,Julie. Truth is, though, I’ve really been inspired to change things. I’ve met too many men, and more importantly children, that have suffered under the most oppressive and tyrannical regime in the history of the world (anyone who understands what is happening understands that claim is not an exaggeration). I’m amazed at the number of people who are not aware of what’s happening, even when it happens to them. It’s like they’ve crawled inside this coccoon and avoid the truth thinking it will go away. Know what I mean? Things can change, but I don’t think they understand it. Every day I walk out to the levy near my apartment and watch the sun set. It sets while rain or snow falls. Sometimes it sets while the moon rises over the horizon opposite it. Sometimes it sets behind clouds and delivers wonderful colors. It’s always different except for one thing. My children are not there to watch it with me. That’s because the government and their mother snatched them. Peaceful solutions to all kinds of developments is a wonderful response, except when it’s not. And concerning our present circumstances, it hasn’t been for forty years. Stoicism is a wonderful quality. But time for that is past. Too many people walk around like zombies waiting for things to change, and they aren’t. Unless we make them change. And the people in power will not allow change unless they are forced to do it. The enemy does not understand reason. It does not have empathy or shame or guilt or remorse. It will never be satisfied because it will never have enough power or control. The only way to quench its thirst for power is to destroy it. When you meet a mad dog in the street, you do not confront it and beat it with a stick, otherwise it will bite you and you will catch its disease. You avoid it or kill it. The government cannot be avoided because it’s everywhere. You must kill it.
Comment by Darryl X — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 1:08 pm
Sorry Larry but I doubt what you say.
You should listen the the drama queens I have to put up with every day on the phones. Whinging whining women wanting to screw their exs out of money.
Here is another personality disorder that is almost exclusively female.
Sounds like 99% of the women this site talks about.
Comment by Ms IRD Officer — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 5:24 pm
Hell it’s a busy day so I switched off the phones and spent time cruising internet and playing amateur psyciatrist.
Theodore Millon identified six subtypes of histrionic [7][8]. Any individual histrionic may exhibit none or one of the following:
Theatrical histrionic – especially dramatic, romantic and attention seeking.
Infantile histrionic – including borderline features.
Vivacious histrionic – synthesizes the seductiveness of the histrionic with the energy level typical of hypomania.
Appeasing histrionic – including dependent and compulsive features.
Tempestuous histrionic – including negativistic (passive-aggressive) features.
Disingenuous histrionic – antisocial features.
A mnemonic that can be used to remember the criteria for histrionic personality disorder is PRAISE ME
P – provocative (or seductive) behavior
R – relationships, considered more intimate than they are
A – attention, must be at center of
I – influenced easily
S – speech (style) – wants to impress, lacks detail
E – emotional lability, shallowness
M – make-up – physical appearance used to draw attention to self
E – exaggerated emotions – theatrical
Comment by Ms IRD Officer — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 5:36 pm
Darryl, I think it’s awesome you want to DO something about father’s predicament.
Comment by julie — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 7:13 pm
Hey man, I just found another good site, where 43,000 have been on this project
http://mkp.org.nz/about/mankind-project-trust/
During 2006 THE MANKIND PROJECT (NEW ZEALAND) was approved and registered as a Charitable Trust, duly incorporated under the provisions of the Charitable Trusts Act 1957.
Our registration Number is CC41590,
OBJECTS: The objects for which the Trust was established are to promote and encourage the following within New Zealand:
1.To empower the personal development of men through provision of education, training, seminars and ongoing support programmes and to assist men to better understand their masculinity and their roles and human relations in society;
2.Promote men’s health and well-being on all levels;
3.Facilitate and encourage the maintenance of nurturing, fulfilling and harmonious families, couples, workplaces and other relationships;
4.Model — both as an organization and as individuals — a responsible personal and social image of positive masculinity based on the principles of accountability, integrity, commitment and authenticity;
5.Foster participation by men of diverse backgrounds, ethnicities, experiences and needs;
6.Work in a collaborative manner with government agencies, philanthropic trusts, voluntary bodies, statutory authorities and public and community initiatives in furtherance of these objects;
7.Provide scholarships to individual men, men’s organizations or other groups to advance the educational aims and to help in research projects to further these objects;
8.Work with other organizations with similar objects;
9.Do all things incidental to the above objects and
10.To carry out these objects in conjunction with the MKP International Organisation and its growing network throughout the world.
MEMBERSHIP:
Membership of the Trust is open to all men 18 years of age who have completed the primary training programme offered by the Trust;- the New Warrior Training Adventure.
THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES:
The Trust is administered by a Board comprising not less than eight nor more than twelve members who are elected annually at General Meeting, normally held in August.
Nomination for a position on the Board shall be by way of notice of nomination in writing endorsed with the consent of the nominee and given to the secretary not less than 24 hours before the time fixed for the annual general meeting or oral nominations may be received at the annual general meeting provided that no member shall be elected who has not consented to being nominated.
CHARITABLE STATUS:
The Trust has been approved by the Inland Revenue Department as a tax free Charitable Trust. This means donations made to the Trust are deductible by the donor within the normal rules and limits of the Department for charitable donations. It also means the Trust is not subject to income tax assessment as a not for profit Trust.
Home / News / Men supporting men
Men supporting menPosted Jul 14 2010 by Alister Gates in News with 1 Comment
Men Mentoring Men through the transitions of our lives — As boys and as men, we often view one another as competitors; for our parents’ attention, in sports, in classes, for mates, for jobs. In pre-history this competition was for the survival of our species. Today the pressures to compete in an ever more complex world drive men to lots of unhealthy behaviors. To the extent that this competitive attitude isolates us from other men and from our communities, it is killing us, literally. Men who suffer isolation are less healthy, less happy, less successful and die early. Coupled with other health risks, emotionally isolated men are more than 2 times more likely to die prematurely. Tragically, we often feel alone even with our families and loved ones. The prevalence of alcoholism, depression, violence, suicide and many other addictive and self-destructive behaviors are directly linked to the fact that men in our societies are disconnected from themselves and from each other.
There is another way! The skills of relationship are learnable. In the ManKind Project, we often talk about these skills as growing our connection to feeling, waking up, or building emotional intelligence. You can learn to stop being enslaved by your anger or fear, learn to share openly without shame the deepest parts of yourself, learn to express love and joy in a way that fosters powerful relationships, learn to feel safe and whole around men and women. Emotional literacy is widely recognized today as the most important factor in creating a successful and deeply satisfying life. You can continue to think your way through life, pushing away the unpleasant feelings that are cycling through your mind and body, but you will miss most of the experiences that make life worth living.
That’s not what you want. You want to live fully.
The New Warrior Training Adventure could be for you.
The ManKind Project supports men. We help each other. Through our trainings, our social networks and our ongoing men’s groups we engage one another at a deep emotional level, sharing the highs and the lows. Having a broad support structure leads to healthier coping mechanisms and better physical and emotional health, life-long. You will be able to create and maintain relationships with men that are not just socially satisfying, but that will help you move forward in meaningful ways in your life.
Your family will benefit, your work will benefit, your friendships will benefit. Many men experience a level of aliveness that they have never known before. We challenge each other to keep growing. We support each other in all our life’s experiences. Competitive energy no longer isolates us from each other, but becomes a spice in our relationships, helping each of us to become the men we want to be.
Comment by Dave — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 10:29 pm
In addition to a PhD in Ecology, I also have a PhD in Psychology (needed it to understand many of the people in my professional administration – in non-psychiatric terms, they are all whackos). Whether you describe these women as “suffering” from this or that personality disorder, I think it’s more important to understand that any personality disorder a woman is diagnosed with places her high on the continuum of psychopathy. Psychopathy is characterized by, among other things, compulsive lying, manipulation, lack of empathy, irresponsibiliy and lack of analytical skills. Erin Pizzey, who opened the first modern women’s shelter in England during 1972, recognized that more than two-thirds of the women at her shelter could be described with these adjectives. They occupied a place very high on the psychopathy continuum. Most of the remaining women, who could not be described with these adjectives still had other problems, but were not abused by their heterosexual partners. They were there for other reasons, including homelessness. When we discuss civilization and its qualities and prerequisites for inclusion or integration in it, most women (not just ones on this site) can’t integrate. As I’ve said before, they are just animals. Their brains don’t accomodate civilization. I’ve read in scientific journals that only about 5% of women in the US suffer from BPD and maybe another 5% suffer from HPD (and approximately 1% of men do for these disorder and approximately 5% of men suffer from things like Antisocial Personality Disorder), but as a scholar with degrees in psychology and ecology, my observations of the population (male and female) suggest approximately 80% of women suffer from severe mental illness (Cluster B Personality Disorders, psychopathology and psychopathy) and about 20% of men do. That makes sense when you investigate the roots of our species, mating strategies for reducing inbreeding, etc… In the past, enforcement of laws kept the negative consequences of these behaviors in check, but today, the laws actively promote and reward these behaviors. No wonder 80% of women and 20% of their male enablers are dangerously nuts.
Comment by Darryl X — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 11:44 pm
These descriptions, although they may be valid for understanding a specific person, are not that helpful, especially when you consider the context. So many of these behaviors are necessary for survival when we were living on the plains of Africa avoiding predation and looking for nuts and berries and trying to prevent inbreeding. In a civilization, however, they are completely pathological. Failure to impose the force of law on these people has revealed their true biological and genetic nature. Good find, though. I didn’t realize anyone had split up the disorder into so many subparts.
Comment by Darryl X — Wed 4th August 2010 @ 11:50 pm
Thanks, Julie. In the US, we’ve tried everything. The power structure does not relent. When I listen to suggestions like wearing arm bands and burning wallets on court house steps, that makes sense in a civilized society and when you are dealing with a huge bureaucracy that may be well intentioned but just clueless and could use some education. But that’s not the problem. The problem is that those in power currently are EVIL. They are not kind people operating in a huge bureacracy who are a little clueless and need ecducation. They are EVIL and will never give up their power and will do everything to oppress those below them. The suffer severe mental illness. Connection between their corpus callosae and cerebrums is impaired and it cannot be fixed. They are a subspecies of human, who predate and parasitize other humans. Believing that these people can be reasoned with and negotiated with reflects misunderstanding of the problem. They must be destroyed decisively, swiftly, without mercy and with extreme prejudice. In the US 36,000,000 fathers have been separated from 52,000,000 children. That’s a catastrophe of global and Biblical proportions. The consequences are absolute and irreversible. It reflects the indoctrination and trafficking of our children into a cult and the enslavement of our men. War is the only solution. We’ve been here before many times throughout history. We’re here again. History is our best teacher.
Comment by Darryl X — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 12:00 am
Teh problem is I’ve envested considerable time reviewing history of everything that’s been done till now and nothing has worked at all. That’s why my conclusion is that war is the only answer. In NZ, you guys aren’t nearly bad off as we are in the US. I understand in NZ they don’t put you in jail for in ability to pay child support, they don’t suspend or revoke passports, and they don’t suspend your driver licenses or credit. Things can get much worse in NZ and I suspect they will, which is why I encourage war as the only solution. War is not violence. It’s not like one person is out to hurt someone because he wants more than everyone else and doesn’t care how he gets it. That’s our enemy. We are defending ourselves against that behavior. War is not violent if it supports a noble cause. Means rarely justify the ends, but on rare occasions they do. Our children have been snatched and our freedom taken away. War is an appropriate response. It is likely the only one. Our enemy does not negotiate. It does not compromise. It does not feel remorse or shame or guilt or pity. It has no conscience. It isn’t human. It is EVIL and it must be destroyed by any means necessary. War has to happen before it’s too late. How many more children? How many more fathers? Before it’s too much. It was too much after the first one forty years ago.
Comment by Darryl X — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 1:43 am
For a moment there, I forgot you are in America Darryl.
I also beleive in some ways America is worse than NZ. I met an America man who was absolutely lovely. He made my first website and gave me quite a bit of his time sharing tips and useful information.
Out of the blue he was told he had to return to America because he was behind in child support. He was remarried when he came here and had set up a business that had lots of valuable assets.
He wasn’t allowed time to pack everything or sort out his new life and had to return pretty much immediately. Added to the already unfair, terrible situation was men and women over here who robbed him shockingly of everything he owned.
All his life’s work, his life savings invested in his business, his personal furniture he brought over, …. everything, …. all squandered by the New Zealanders he trusted. I feel sick just remembering this.
Comment by julie — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 9:07 am
Dear Hans,
I have read fairly carefully and come to exactly the same conclusion as you.
However, I also try to put myself into the other person’s shoes and see whether they had other acceptable alternatives and why they didn’t choose to follow any of those alternatives.
As a rough guide, we spill to earth about 8000 litres of younger and middle aged men’s blood each year, year after year, by them deciding to discontinue living. This has now been at about these levels, for the last 30 to 40 years. Each spill is small scale, localised and easily hidden under fresh earth, by those who want to walk away as quickly as they can.
Maybe this is a voluntary decision, that they have come to rationally and sensibly?
When we look through their personal characteristics, as far as can be accurately determined from a lifeless body, we are forced to acknowledge that many of their problems were Hangovers From Difficult Childhood, mental disorders (hfdc too) and societal problems that perhaps bit them harder than the average citizen. These issues, in my opinion, make the informed consent argument untenable. (Good discussions in posts above!! Particularly good understanding shown by the IRD CS staffer, I guess they need this level of competence after the event, as so many of their staff suicide!)
The NZ Suicide Plan does contain suggestions, perhaps addressed to helping youth and women and maori, that will eventually give some benefit to men also (if only for their children…)
However, in my opinion, there are issues pertaining to younger middle aged parents, that are not even named, let alone constructively addressed in the NZ Suicide Plan. Whilst in social terms they are disparate, they would all be greatly helped if we applied quality principles before we passed legislation, by investigating more carefully the full set of impacts. Parliaments select committee process, in such a small country, does not satisfactorily ensure that legislation will achieve what it was intended to do and not create perverse incentives either.
Implementation of new legislation also needs to monitored effectively, to follow quality principles, so that defective legislation is altered or removed completely, before too much harm has been done.
Just because something is law, doesn’t imply that it can or will serve society. Often, poor quality legislation just serves legal-workers, to the severe detriment of society.
Particularly in the case of younger and middle aged women and men, parental issues loom large as suicide triggers, but in lower numbers for women than for men. (This makes the impact onto women much harder to study, than the impact of these issues onto men, as the numbers are so small that they are indistinguishable in national statistics.)
Societal problems include the behaviour of legal workers in familycaught, whose behaviour may be “legal”, in their eyes at least, but if judged against the professional standards set by medical practitioners or school teachers, are seen to be far below minimum acceptable professional behaviour. Example — parent has communication with legal worker (lawyer or judge) and after the interaction, feels so devalued as to feel worthless. The problem isn’t in legislation, it is in the weakness of poor quality legislation at controlling the behaviour of legal workers, especially when the prey in secret.
By comparison, the medical profession has lifted the quality of it’s interactions with their customers dramaticly in the last 50 years. Similarly for school teachers:
Developing attitude toward learning / Robert F. Mager published 1984 ie 26 YEARS AGO!
In this book, Robert Mager says that teachers can only be viewed as successful if they sell their subject to their students, as well as teach them subject content.
This is the opposite of persuading your customers to commit suicide, or to leave their meeting with you, having little or no trust in your skills, ethics or integrity!
The failure of the familycaught legal workers to develop their customer relationship and respect skills results from the nature of their customer relationship. They see themselves as having one night stand wallet thief relationships with their customers, so they develop or “evolve” to sting like a bee, rather than having an ongoing mutually beneficial relationship, as you have with your doctor, your children’s teachers, your car mechanic, your employer, your chemist, your house builder…. etc.
I met the director of ADHB Mental Health services, at the Suicide Planning seminar that they ran a few months back. She did show a positive interest in men’s suicide, even if she seemed somewhat perplexed as to why men just completed their suicide and didn’t seek treatment, so they could put if off a while. She discussed the consideration that ADHB had given to investigating these issues. I applaud her professional approach and energy.
By contrast, a year ago I asked people reading this website (mainly men I guess), if they would be willing to share their own experiences of suicidal ideation, Not one man has contacted me, willing to share their experiences, either to assist research in NZ or to supply to the Australian Senate Enquiry (now completed).
Call for suicide ideation experiences
request-for-you-to-share-your-suicidal-ideation-experience
example-of-delivering-suicide-triggers-judge-dale-green
So Hans, while I agree with your comments on the disinterest among most NZ suicide researchers and Health Department planners, I don’t feel that we can criticise THEM, when we don’t put our own efforts, money, resources and stories into NZ based suicide research.
If anyone reading this is willing to share their own personal experiences, then there is a small group of researchers who would like to research these issues, with the aim that we spill a bit less blood to ground. The life subsequently saved, might be one of your own.
Captain Lawrence Edward Grace Oates was a British Antarctic explorer, who’s famous last words were “I am just going outside and may be some time.
I am left with the feeling that the Captain Oates story is so embedded into our societal consciousness, with its lemming like quality, than love of being alive and giving each other men’s nurture are undermined.
I have sometimes tried to help men and contrary to some popular opinion, they are as worth helping as women. Popular opinion is reflected in our societal funding allocations, as well as our personal time allocations in supporting our fellow citizens?
The problems of disinterest in men’s suicide also stem from the general deprecation of mental health issues, compared to “real medicine”. It appears to me that the suicide death ends up being just as real as the death by heart attack or car crash. Why don’t they just snap out of it, I did. Alas, it is much more than just real, to the left behind family, especially their children.
When one of our familycaught “judges” meets and leads a parent across the River Styx, they don’t just finalise the parent, but selfishly and cruelly imperil their children too.
Rather than worry too much why THEY aren’t doing anything, lets put our own independent resources into saving our parents from unnecessary self-deletion. Then we can start immediately.
Cheers, MurrayBacon axemurderer.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 11:46 am
Yep, that’s the story of a lot of men here. About eighteen-million are either in prison or destitute. Another eighteen-million have engaged the already huge and growing criminal subculture just to pay for child-support. It’a a common story. About one-sixth of all adult men are either in prison or destitute (they can’t manage the assets they have because the US government has reciprocal relationships with most nations of the world and their assets will be seized). At the same time, most of these same men are not allowed to see their children. Again, the other one-sixth can pay their child support, but do it through criminal means. The child support system in the US is an important reason, if not the fundamental reason, that the economy has collapsed in the US and will not likely recover ever, and that collapse has and will continue spreading throughout the world. Most people do not understand the role the irrational and corrupt child support system in the US affects all other countries, including NZ. I do believe that conditions regarding the traffick of children and the economic circumstances it contributes to in NZ will get considerably worse. I am a presage of doom. You should listen to me when I say that if you do not take up arms now, the opportunity to later may not present itself. Especially when passports are taken away and men are imprisoned. In the US, Haliburton (don’t know if you’ve heard of this company in relation to our former vice-president Cheney and the Iraq war) has been contracted to build three containment facilities for ten-thousand each (thirty-thousand total) men, mostly in arrears for child support. A railroad company has been commissioned by the US government to build flat cars with benches and manacle rings for transporting large populations to and from the facilities. Scary scary stuff. I’m sorry to hear about your American friend. The government does not understand what it is doing when it restricts that kind of movement and financial activity.
Comment by Darryl X — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 1:05 pm
I’ve just finished reading this in it’s entirety.
It’s seems MENZ is now joined by MENZ Magazine.
A superb new online magazine for men you can subscribe to.
A worthwhile contribution to men valuing themselves over and above suicidality, with thought provoking articles by authors from different parts of the manosphere.
Very political and of course Mens Rights oriented, yet written in easy to read concise manageable chunks.
The perfect magazine to print and have on your coffee table or to drop off at your local bar/cafe/club for folks to get educated about Men’s rights issues.
After I wrote to Paul Elam they even wrote an article about the man in Brisbane who recently suicided by setting himself on fire outside a courthouse. So they obviously take writings or ideas you send them and develop them into articles.
When I read this, as a man I felt valued and understood. Well done MENZ Magazine!
I highly recommend it.
Enjoy.
Comment by Skeptik — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 3:52 pm
FYI Just noting again this is not me.
Comment by Dave — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 6:05 pm
Yeah, I forget I’m in America most of the time, too. That’s why I’ve gravitated to places like NZ for support and to advise about developments here and likely developments there. As bad as it seems in NZ, it can and likely will get much worse. If the consequences of can’t be stopped in a place like NZ, it likely cannot be stopped. You are the example for the rest of the world, like it or not. Your geography and political and social structure make solutions to these problems much easier, and if they can’t happen there, then the rest of us are doomed. Please succeed. As I’ve indicated before, men here are more than willing to be the sharp end of the spear for you if and when it comes to that.
Comment by Darryl X — Thu 5th August 2010 @ 11:55 pm
(I shortened the quote for space.)
Lol, it’s easy enough to do on the Internet. And when you consider countries follow the same laws etc, there’s little difference. 😉
Besides, you contribute well to this site IMO.
Comment by julie — Fri 6th August 2010 @ 6:58 am
I reckon Ms IRD Officer. Whining women wanting to screw there exs out of money.
IRD take alot of flak over this extortion of child tax and rightly deserved to I feel
But I do think the real evil doer here is the vindictive ex who wants “her money, all of it, more of it”
These harpies dont care or even want to know what paying this extortion does to the person stumping up the cash so long as they stump up.
I read all the posts on child tax and know from my own circumstances that behind every suicde, bankruptcy, depression, dispondency is a parent who doesnt give a damn as long as they get “their money”
You dont hear the people who came to a amicable arrangement on what was needed in the way of support moaning.
I know some parents who say “I got the kids thats enough as I know losing them hurts the other parent and charging them for that loss seemed wrong”
But then you have these entitlement queens who want it and want it all. They would literally kill the golden goose with their greed and insensitivity.
They are the ones that should be copping some of the flak. Because unless the DPB is involved then everyone paying extortionate child support is paying it because their ex wants it and doesnt give a shit what it takes to get it.
Comment by mits — Fri 6th August 2010 @ 9:08 am
I believe the term your looking for, mits, is PSYCHOPATH.
Comment by Darryl X — Fri 6th August 2010 @ 11:08 pm
the Plains of Africa or Concrete Jungles…survival skills are still used today…my once counsellor referred to x as a ‘survivor’…i call her a user but i guess u gotta use some ppl to survive
Comment by Ford — Sat 7th August 2010 @ 12:07 pm
Thanks for your response Murray. My response to your comments:
– You’re correct, most people who suicide are not thinking rationally.
– The high rate of “mental illness” in people who commit suicide is often highlighted, the solution then being seen as providing more psychiatrists and other professionals to manage the “illness”. (This is the line the Suicide Strategy takes too.) However, Depression is the most common of the illnesses associated with suicide, and life stressors are most often the cause of Depression. For men, those life stressors are likely to include anxiety concerning men’s identity, roles, social belonging and worth, and an awareness that men will face almost certain exploitation, abuse, unfairness, defeat, loss and/or failure under feminist-based laws and administration concerning many issues men may have to confront. Such issues include so-called “child support”, relationship property, custody and access regarding children and indeed parental influence on child rearing generally, and any allegations by women of men’s wrongdoing. Focusing mainly on treatment for “mental illness” (I am not convinced that Depression is best categorized as a mental illness at all, but that’s another discussion…) without addressing the underlying causes of most such illness is like trying to fix the leaky-homes problem by providing sponges to their owners while continuing to encourage rogue builders to construct even more leaky homes.
– It is simply not good enough for men’s suicide needs to be addressed only incidentally or through trickle down from policies designed mainly to help all other groups except men.
– You are correct in pointing to our lack of understanding of high rates of male suicide. This highlights an urgent need to find out more about the causes, and to look in the right direction for them.
– I disagree with your implication that suicide factors in women are harder to study than in men. Women survive suicide attempts much more often than to men, so it’s easier to question them later about what was going on for them. The real causes of male suicide are often not identified because people don’t look in the right direction, or when identified they are denied and/or repressed by families, agencies and in the media.
– I’m not sure what you mean by saying that “parental issues” as suicide factors are often relevant to men but rarely to women. If you’re referring to anxiety about one’s ongoing right or opportunity to be a parent to one’s children, then I agree strongly with you that under feminist-based law men suffer such anxiety in high numbers but women rarely will.
– I don’t agree with your belief that we shouldn’t criticize taxpayer-funded reports and programmes for failing to give fair treatment to men unless we make our own efforts to research the issues those reports and programmes were entrusted to address. You may as well say that we shouldn’t criticize incompetent surgeons unless we also attempt to do surgery. There may be many reasons that men have not responded to your invitation to contact you in order to share their experiences of suicidal ideation. Firstly, there is no anonymity in contacting you, and many men would not feel safe for someone else in this small country to know they have experienced suicidal ideation at all. Secondly, it may take more sophisticated advertising to motivate or reassure men about contributing; e.g. examples of the specific kind of thing that the researchers are interested in hearing about. Thirdly, men would need to have confidence in the quality of the research study and the competence of those undertaking it. (My experience has been that it is not at all safe for men to talk about suicidal ideation. After my family was ripped apart I expressed my despair and sense of wishing I could end my pain but rather than any support or empathy this resulted in being persecuted by two cars full of armed police who came to deprive me of my rifle and arms licence.)(It’s also interesting that when a man talks to his partner about suicidal feelings this is defined by the Family Court as “domestic violence” justifying serious punishment through protection orders and all the deprivation of normal rights that go with them, but when women actually make suicide attempts or gestures these are unlikely to lead to protection orders or any other punishment, only help and caring.)
Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 8th August 2010 @ 11:49 am
There is no “men’s affairs department” in NZ, either funded by government or otherwise, that informs legislators and policy makers about men’s perspectives and needs.
Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 8th August 2010 @ 12:13 pm
The highest male suicide rates are in men aged between 75 and 85, then between 25 and 45. The age group 17 to 25 does not have the highest rate of suicide, as is clear in the graphs shown in the Suicide Strategy linked in my post.
Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 8th August 2010 @ 12:18 pm
Thanks for letting us know about this. I couldn’t see anything to show where it is produced; I assume Australia. I wonder why they called it MENZ.
Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 8th August 2010 @ 12:21 pm
Thanks for the info Hans. Great! That leaves the opportunity wide open.
Oh, about the statement on young men’s suicide, I know you are better informed at men’s suicide than I am…. I got the info from my pharmacist who’s on a board for young men’s suicide – he may be focused another way or have it wrong.
Wow about older men and suicide. I wouldn’t have thought.
Comment by julie — Mon 9th August 2010 @ 7:22 pm
Lol.
Comment by julie — Mon 9th August 2010 @ 8:01 pm
Dear Hans, sorry for my ambiguity:
I was meaning that fewer women are denied access by familycaught, so that the number of women who, as a result, choose to complete suicide is smaller than the number of men who make this same decision each year. As a result of the smaller number each year, it is difficult to impossible to trace these numbers from published suicide statistics. For this reason, these suicides among women usually only become obvious on a case by case basis eg Sky’s mother, Juliette Gilbert, who completed suicide after 2 years of denied access.
As the numbers of children being removed from their parents increases, both married couples and single mothers, then we can unfortunately expect to see more of these suicides in women too (unless the familycaught were to be careful in the way it communicates with parents!).
You speak of irrational suicide and I accept what you say. It worries me considerably, that more people are making rational decisions that end in completed suicide. I interpret that as a negative comment on our society.
I accept your comment on greater accessibility to women who have made suicide attempts. However, they are in some ways a distinct group from people who decide to succeed in arranging their suicide.
I do like your comment about depression not really being a “mental illness”. I agree, I see it more as unrealistic expectations meeting the real world…. Anyway, we all like to dream, it is just a matter of how seriously we take our dreams. It is amazing that people can injure themselves so.
Thanks, MurrayBacon.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 9th August 2010 @ 10:02 pm
Hey there….I’m the editor of this lil rag. Just thought you might like to know that MenZ is actually produced in little old Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada (home of the RCMP and birthplace of Medicare in Canada).
I’m glad you like it, since the intended audience – and the authors – are from all over the world. In fact, I would appreciate it if you could help spread the word wherever you are, and if you’re a writer, please feel free to submit articles. The whole thing is volunteer only including the articles, but if things go the way I hope, it will be a paying gig soon…
-Factory
Comment by Factory — Thu 12th August 2010 @ 5:05 am
Factory,
Well done on producing such a high quality product!
All,
Here are three links giving some interesting insight into the state of play on suicide in NZ.
To thier credit they emanate from the StuffNZ portal.
LINK 1
LINK 2
LINK 3
Comment by Skeptik — Thu 12th August 2010 @ 12:19 pm
Excellent information Skeptic. Thanks a lot.
The 1st link’s graphs make sense to me. I won’t rub it in that my pharmacist knows what he’s talking about – oops, just did.
The 2nd is informative.
The 3rd, WOW! About time.
Here’s another one thanx to watchful eye.
The Chief Coroner’s call for more debate about suicide reporting has struck a chord with the Government.
Comment by julie — Thu 12th August 2010 @ 7:04 pm
Factory,
I too think you have done an excellent job with the menz mag/rag. I thought the latest addition was someone else’s because of the pictures.
Last Friday I attended a forum on families and one of the speakers talked about the sexualisation of young women and I thought for a moment the mag/rag was going to be similar to Penthouse etc. After seeing your others, I’m guessing each mag will be different and the pictures depend on the articles.
I hope you get lots of positive feedback.
Comment by julie — Thu 12th August 2010 @ 7:14 pm
Skeptic, I don’t know where to put this because I don’t know where the comment you made was written, but thanks for the information about the grief and loss workshops you did. I followed up with the organisation you spoke of and apparently they were seriously wonderful workshops that sadly don’t happen any more because of lack of committee members. Still, … they can refer the right people on.
Comment by julie — Mon 16th August 2010 @ 4:29 pm
Oh dear,
how to spin.
Put a pretty ribbon around big government statism and call it ‘community’!
Comment by Skeptik — Mon 16th August 2010 @ 4:54 pm
Thanks Julie. So far so good actually. About 2400 reads in a little less than a month with the first issue and next to no advertising….I’m taking it as a positive.
The next issue is about to come out, and I thought you guys might like to know this very article is in it. I assume the lack of response to the request is an affirmative…because I’m crazy like that. If you’d rather that it not, you still have a couple days to let me know….
FWIW, this ones quite the firecracker issue…
Comment by Factory — Thu 2nd September 2010 @ 8:11 am