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What can you do if what she says are lies
ngapuhistylz201, By ‘she’ I understand you are a male, and either you have a temporary protection order or you have already been served with a final one and contemplating to defend it or discharge it.
Answer to your question: Remain calm. You ex does not tell lies. The SYSTEM does.
There is nothing you can do. The judge will believe her and use the law to serve you with a protection order. You do not need to have done something for the judge to believe her. The law is explicit: She just needs to think it or perceive it. And then there is a gray area of speculation called psychological abuse: the judge will use that just in case everything else fails.
Note: Psychological violence and abuse is a female trait or a trait of the week. Male have their fist if they need to exercise any violence or abuse. Somehow the gender lobby managed to turn the tables and make it used against male in Court without any evidence.
And more importantly a judge as is my case will write in her decision things you did not think or say or even contrary to what you said. Judges have to cover their neck and the easy thing to do is to serve you with a protection orders. The system demands a quota and they have to provide them no matter how. They need ammunitions to defend themselves against the gender lobby that is Women Refuge.
What to do?
0- This is not done only to you. More than half of the males roaming in your town have been served by a protection order.
1- Clearly identify you enemy: It is not your partner or wife. It is the system (Lawyers, Family Court)
Entirely take your ex out of the picture. You are fighting a dirty system.
2- You will be requested to attend a violence program. You can object to this. Your are not violent right?
If however you attend it ( and if you do not the system has the right to send you to jail and you will have to attend the course after jail and a fee) the system will take it as you admitting to violence hence your wish to ‘reform’.
3 Your MP, and all the people you thought were great and rode on your back to parlement will deceive you. They will be of no assistance to you. The best they will do is to ask you to dip into your pocket to hire a lawyer. They will usually recommend to you one or two ‘good’ lawyers.
Take my word for it. There is not a single lawyer who will admit to you that you are wasting your time and money with them. They can do absolutely nothing in court to help you. The Judge is simply incapable of not serving you with a protection order: Save your money to be able toys for your children for Chrismas. Refuse to consent to anything and defend every thing.
4. Represent yourself. Constitute yourself as a lawyer. Take this as a challenge. It will strengthen you and you will learn a lot about you belove New Zealand starting from judges. Remember your ex is irrelevant. Ignore her completely. In the court remain confident, peaceful and strong.
5. You will have many enemies during this process: your wifes’ lawyer paid for by the system, the children’ lawyer paid for by the system, the staff of the Family Court (these are hard to de-code their deceit)
6. You will come out of it a strong MAN and Dad.
In addition to tren’s excellent advice you can take a McKenzie friend into the family court with you – to enhance your chances that the judge and other ‘court’ staff will be honest due to there being another witness apart from yourself to their behavior.
See here for more details.
Yes a Mackenzie friend is very important as a witness to the Court process.
One more advice: If you are asked questions by the ex lawyer or anyone else insist the questions are from information before the Court like affidavits. To a question you think outside what is the Court allows (only information before It) your response should be a question like: Which paragraph? (Affidavits are in form of paragraphs)
dont give up, your in for a long hard slog, focus on your kids and not the lies. its the law thats wrong.
it is fairly important not to take any caught process too seriously. People who take caughts seriously, suffer the most damage.
We all enjoy watching TV drama’s where injustice gets sorted out, in the lifetime of the accused, but in reality, the accused is pretty much financially destroyed by their own legal-worker’s bills, leave alone whether they get found not guilty or guilty!!! Example – the co-defendants of Peter Ellis were bankrupted, lost their houses and lost their jobs, even though charges were dropped during the hearing!!!!
It is very important that you understand what caughts are for, so that you can protect yourself from these thieves.
To put these issues into perspective, for the case of Domestic Violence Act POs, see:
When the caughts are more than just fictional entertainment, then you do have a problem. Certainly there are victims in caught, your only worthwhile defense is to never put yourself into a position where you can be forced to take part in one of these street theatre/self sacrifices.
The grounds for awarding a protection order are so vague and all encompassing that it is difficult to defeat such an application by only defending it. To defeat a protection order application you need to cross-apply for your own protection order against the applicant.
You will then be encouraged by the court to negotiate a settlement that involves mutual undertakings. That is, you promise the court to leave each other alone.
If you do breach the undertakings you don’t face the risk of being arrested by the police for breaching a protection order although if your breach is heard by the court, then a protection order may be made against you.
I was charged with breaching the temporary protection order because a freind of mine contacted the ex asking her hwo she is doing /small talk . The police alleged I asked her to contact the ex. My friedn said NO but I was still chragde with the breach .
Now comes the travesty. The constable and the rposecutor are for /warning/ diversion but then all of sudden a diversion officer woman said NO to diversion.
My choice is to admit to guilty and apply for review of the diversion refusal , to plead guilty and have criminal file or to spend $ 4000 for a lawyer who will defend me ona non guilty plea.
If on ly I can post the explanation of that woman diversion officer – it is worse than a Spanish inqusition . I think to swallow my pride and apply for diversion refusal review. the only condition is to ” admit” the guilt . I feel horible at the moment/Really and truly horrible
Tony it all depends on the evidence.
Have the coppers provided you with full disclosure?
This case will largely depend on the evidence of the friend who made contact and the Police need to show the link/nexus with you encouraging her to make the contact.
Diversion is a crock and will come to kick you in Family Court later. Take care, yes a simple “out” but take care of the long term consequences.
Please tell me if asking for Affidavits from the direct witnesses to two alleged loitering incidents can be seen by the Judge as a ” threating” actions on my side?
In my case , The Judge ruled that applicant’s three loitering allegations are not true. The Judge aslo also acknowledged that the Applicant neither responded to my notice to admit facts nor she vere denied my my allegations she is making false loitering allegations . The Judge aslo aknwoledged that i felt frustrated by applicants legal behaviour.
Still i was given a PO because ” I developed a tunel vision when trying to get to the bottom of things” Judge said that I intimidated the Applicant by doing so. Any help to understand that ?
Flick me an e-mail allan.harvey”at”xtra.co.nz.
This is not the place to be discussing active cases.
It’s probably new territory.
You may be the first to explore that forest, and not get any replies.
Looks like the applicant expects to live a silo-life.
George Simonovski @9: We regret to inform you that your experience in the Family Court is typical for men. It appears that your learned judge recognized the female’s allegations were false and that she committed perjury, and that she (and her lawyer) failed to participate in good faith in the Court process. Yet your efforts to defend yourself against her dishonesty and to protect your legal rights were seen as the only problem leading to a judgement favouring the dishonest female and damaging your life.
We hear about such nonsense constantly. Any effort by a male litigant to defend his rights places him at risk of being treated as an abuser. The Court’s primary, often only concern, is to ensure the female is accepting of any outcome and is protected from any unhappiness including accountability and embarrassment for her dishonesty in the Court process. The Femily Court seems to welcome false allegations from women, possibly because it can get away with white-knighting dishonest women and thereby extending the lucrative income stream a dispute might provide for the lawyers.
Feminist beliefs about men being abusers and women being innocent victims are heavily entrenched in our society including (especially) our judges and lawyers. Legal workers are routinely indoctrinated by seminars from women’s groups but you can bet few of them have ever attended a seminar from a men’s or fathers’ organisation, or ever even met with any men’s support group. It wouldn’t make much difference if they did because family law is now largely based on ‘man abuser woman victim’ beliefs and other feminist ideology, shaping the anti-male sexist behaviour of this Court. The law has been written in such a way as to allow the judges almost unlimited freedom to reach creative interpretations in line with male-blaming ideology and judgements.
Sadly, the ultimate victims of the Femily Court’s sexism are the children who have their relationships with their father eroded or wrecked by vindictive women facilitated by this Court. Children’s fathers are either demoralized towards self-destructive attitudes and behaviour or provoked into violent or unwise reactions.
We would encourage you to call out your Court’s injustice. Appeal to a higher Court with your evidence that your efforts to participate in the Family Court proceedings honestly and trying to protect your legal rights were defined as threatening the female and deserving of a protection order (while the actual allegations supporting her application were found to be false, and her dishonesty and abuse of Court process were not seen as threatening towards you). Alternatively, walk away, have nothing further to do with both the female and the corrupt, sexist Family Court.
Take up Allan Harvey’s kind offer to assist you in your decisions and responses. He is very experienced in supporting men through Court processes.
Thank you gentleman and especially to Ministry of Affairs detailed and friendly reply.I do really appreciate that.
The Court hearing had one unexpected benefit for me which even my own counselor was not bale to achive it 100% .It finally relieved me from my own projections that the Applicant (she) might be able to change toward better for the rest of her life . You have to see to believe it her crying performance.
I am not affected personally from the Judge ruling but my understanding of fair and civilised NZ is.
I am brought up to believe in just world.
I would have felt better and my basic intelligence would not have been insulted if only Judge would have said in the very first few minutes: Ok, George , here is your PO , without having to spend 3 hours on putting words in the App mouth ” Did not you feel pushed/intimidated by George asking fro Affidavits from your friends” ? The three people i asked Affidavits and got them don’t know her except at sight .
Definitely I ma going to appeal and contact Alen Harvey. thank you once again dear people
Me again, while I am waiting for Allan harvey -:)and drafting my Appeal
I was told personally at the High Court registry Auckland that the appeal fee is $540 . An experience friend just told it is $2000 . Does anyone knows for sure how much it is ?
How far can you go mounting an P.O effective legal defence ?
Few tips for the uninitiated :
1. Choose only one direct witness to ask for Affidavit/or Court subpoena to produce an Affidavit . In my case there were about 90 direct witnesses and i approached only three of them -,but that was judged by Th e Judge as aggressive .
2. Do not send a Notice to admit facts to her .The same reason as above
3. Do not rely on NZ legislature to prove you are innocent
4. Your best chance is fighting her tears with yours one, her pathetis performance with your pathetic performance .
5. Do not appear as a man with strong ethical and moral boundaries since it will be taken against you and judged to be psychological abuse to her.
6. Play on Judge;s feeling to feel sorry about you but not on the legal grounds
7. Do not inform anyone about your case. If she finds that out she will use it against you
8. Be prepared to be more cunning and manipulative than she is .
9. Do not mount too effective defence as you shall be seen as aggressive and domineering male
10 If you can not swallow the above B/S you shall loose the case.
REMEMBER ; PERCEPTION AND STEREOTYPES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE LAW IT SELF.
After three days of I soul searching i decided not to appeal on very blunt but extremely important wake up George , advice from Allan .Very reluctantly and angrily I have to admit he is right .
Good on you George. It’s sensible to take advice from people who know the system and look more fully at your situation. Thanks for sharing your experience, none of which becomes any more acceptable through your decision.
@15 regardless of the quality of your effort, unless her lawyer is unnecessarily pursuing a protection order for other reasons it will probably be granted.
What is important though, as you point out is the way you approach the defense of it, and that you do defend it, bearing in mind that its removal further down the track may be of more importance.
The later removal is not something so obvious to the currently engaged in the dispute but for those of us who have been sucessful in this respect, it can make a significant difference to the engagement in an ongoing relationship with your children.
The Domestic Violence Act was an international concept introduced into New Zealand law by dubious means by a foreign Feminist.
There was no intention in the legislation to make men the winning party.
The protection order if they could have their way and they have tried through the courts to make it undisputable.
Thank you to everyone who commented on my pst . ,Really thank you for your attention. I am slowly coming to terms that my eventual appeal might be taken as a harassment. I am coming to terms that the three Affidavits, in my support from the direct witness (approved by the Case review) were rejected in no time et etc .
It seems to me that the Family Court insist the men must be of perfect character ( I am not ) but the women can lie, cheat, physically attack etc etc and that is OK .
Will not bother you any more . Have to go to anger managemnet programme where they will turn me into a perfect man . Lucky me :-).
Just keep that smile for 6 weeks.
As hard as it may be, just shut your mouth.
Then walk out the door, hopefully with a new friend, who is in the same unfortunate predicament.
Thanks . Will do that .
I am dealing with a complicated case that my wife was served the protection order after trying for several years to help her in any way possible. But her psychological, financial and physical violence got worse and reached a level that I was pushed by my counsellor and lawyer to act before something fatal happens. Sad to see investing and loving someone who always underestimated you pure love and support.
To cut a long story short, she decided to hire a lawyer and challenge the order by asking for a hearing and filing affidavits fulls of lies and false allegations, unbelievable!!! I have replied and provided solid evidence and even have witnesses. but the hearing has been cancelled twice and I have been pushed to sing an undertaking instead!
I was exhausted and damaged and was keen to get it done, but when I read it, it was like a mutual one and as if I accept I have done something wrong and should seek for counselling and promise not to approach her!!! She even didn’t like it and did not sign in the end. Now the judge keeps warning of “lack of necessity” as its been several months past and wants to see us to tell him why the undertaking did not happen!
She is from overseas and even managed to renew her visa while immigration is aware of her case! I do feel how biased the system is against men and if I were the respondent the story would be soooo different. My lawyer is not that hopeful and I feel that she is pushed not to help me much either. I really have no idea what to do now. I am badly damaged and still need to heal, while I have been struggling with the long wait and preparing affidavits and reading her evil false allegations. The fact is I ‘ve been told that all agree that her violence in the past is proven.
I wonder how to convince the judge not to dismiss the order, and if so take the case to the criminal court as domestic violence is a crime anyway. I badly need some pragmatic advice, please. Cheers
Sometimes we are our own worse enemy. Russian bride ay!?
IF there is no kid in this relationship.
It is time for you to cut clear and get out of it.
Get rid of the lawyers and counselors, dissolve this marriage and run to the hills.
Stop all contact and move on. (They simply use you to stay in the country and get papers and then they turn into your worse nightmare… grab your home and wallet and you are stuck in the mud… I assume she is from Eastern Europe and you fell for a gold digger with obsessive compulsive disorder with elements of terrorism “emotiono psychological”)
If that’s what you are dealing with – only you can get out of it.
You got to cut the umbilical cord.
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