MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Should the men’s movement rethink?

Filed under: General — Julie @ 10:58 pm Sat 26th June 2010

The past few months would have to be the worst period of the online men’s movement I’ve seen. It’s not unusual for inside fighting also known as inside politics to occur, and sometimes it’s worth laughing about while other times it gets real messy and pain is inflicted. It’s easy enough to do when men and women who fight for men’s rights and write on websites have been at it for years; some are even retired, and everyone has an idea of each other’s weaknesses and strengths.

Over the years many men have considered they have the answer, (some still do) and it involves the day-to-day lives of men adjusting to feminism to starting a political party to petitions to groups to being on boards of organisations affecting change to protesting to being speakers. Practically every single person involved has an opinion on how New Zealand should be and pretty much everyone wants support for what they’re doing. Sometimes it’s annoying because sometimes men and women think others should drop everything they’re doing and do what they think is right. It’s a shame because supporting one another is very important.

There’s only one man IMHO who can claim to be a leader through everyone’s standard and that’s Jim Bagnall. Other than Jim, there’s plenty of good leading men who are doing great things for men and boys in society. The funny thing about Jim is that we’d all love to be reading his posts while he refuses to come online because he can’t stand the infighting. He’s not the only man to think this way and over the years lots of good men have been driven away from sharing their work, their achievements and inside information they have that could help others.

Everyone’s in different areas of New Zealand, networking with different groups and confronting different opposition; which brings up another problem because what someone in one area thinks is opposition in another area is generally not opposition to the men working that area. For example; Waitakere has nearly every one of it’s politicians supporting men’s rights through years of MRAs work and some of the new ones more than the last ones. There’s hundreds of active MRAs in Auckland and yet the men themselves say it’s the men’s own fault because they’re not using the politicians. It’s a fair enough statement when you speak to men in the community and find they’ve been at the coals for decades and don’t have the energy to fight any more and prefer to get on with what they’ve built in the community to help men. It’s not unusual to meet feminists who are older, have grandchildren now, and feel they don’t have it in them to fight to balance things either.

One man I’ve enjoyed to meet now drops off food to fathers in need through the CAB. He fought since the 70’s for men’s rights and a few years ago was flown to the UN to receive recognition for the work he’s done in the community.

One sad reality is that everyone’s a volunteer and everyone’s doing something positive for men’s rights whether the rights are the same or not. It’s sad because volunteers give their time and money for free and instead of being thanked and supported, they’re having to cop other people’s frustrations and judgement. People that decide to volunteer their time often need a crash course on what’s going on, are subject to alot of disagreement and need to work out for themselves how they fit within the men’s movement and what they can do to help. There’s always a reason someone decides to pick the men’s movement as their cause and there’s always going to be different life experiences and different ideas and expertise and different areas men want to work. As I’m reminded, “The men’s movement is as diverse as the women’s movement”. But in saying that, this site and others like it are about men’s issues that cover: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health. Much work men do in the community does fall into these categories especially “News and discussion about NZ men”. In fact, it’d be interesting to know what doesn’t fall into this category.

Another sad reality is that the online men’s movement represents a minority of the actual men working to better society for men and boys and because of this it’s not unusual for competition and ‘tall poppy syndrome’. There’s a few other sad realities like some men involved are sick and their health is important and that a number of men that are well known to the men online can’t actually use a computer themselves so they need someone to read through all the information they present and make posts for them.

Probably the saddest reality is the conflict and inside fighting because people get hurt and things go nowhere while society keeps moving ahead making things worse for men and boys. Even though the online movement is a small part of men on the whole, it cares about extremely important issues that affect men on the whole.

There’s lots of men who have shared parenting that won’t dare speak up in fear their exes will stop contact between them and their children and there’s lots of men struggling to pay child support while they get 40% of their children’s time so that their exes get child support. Heck, no woman can get the DPB if she allows the father to have over more than 40%. There’s also lots of new girlfriends and new wives who are trying to comfort their partners while the exes are making constant demands because they feel the men are responsible for them even if they dumped them to drain another man. We shame men if they have 2 or more wives yet we cheer women and support them if they have 2 or more men supporting them. I’ve no idea how many new girlfriends or new wives have told the past wife, “If things are soooo bad, give the father the child and we together will look after them”. Never happens though because they just want more money.

But anyways, I’m getting off topic. The main reason I want to write this and have you suffer by reading it is to say it’s better to progress than stay stagnant.

As a thought, why don’t we all start again? I’ve grown heaps since I was first here and I’ve watched others grow also. Benjamin Easton comes to mind because I remember how what he wrote was sometimes non-understandable and how he stuck with it and in time he became much easier to understand. You’ve just got to give credit where credit’s due IMO and although he doesn’t focus his life on his children like a lot of other fathers do, he has sacrificed being a father for being a man who stands up for fathers. When you think about it, his ex would have kept him on a leash threatening him every time he stepped up and so he decided to step up and fuck the leash.

Da4justice is another. The man’s a replica of Jim Bagnall except he’s online and voicing his anger unlike Jim Bagnall who sometimes has to walk out of a courtroom to spew up because things are soooo anti fathers. It might be that Dad4justice isn’t having to confirm the identities of men committing suicide and if not, it won’t be long and he will be. Men like Dad4justice don’t come around very often and should be supported.

Then there’s Jim Bailey. Well, what can I say except he’s been putting me through what he’s been through so I understand. It’s not nice to be on the receiving end and it has played with my conscience. I feel like I’ve given a million chances to him but one more won’t hurt. Especially when I need to take back at least half of the million chances and say, “You were right”.

Then there’s Daniel and other men who are much newer to the men’s movement. They matter much more than people might realise.

Remember back to the words I wrote about Waitakere having almost all it’s politicians wanting to support men’s rights and how men themselves who are supposed to be advocates for men aren’t using them? Well, I wrote it’s because they are tired of fighting and are getting on with life. How important do we all think fresh blood is because of this?

Maybe the focus needs to be on finding new recruits as well as doing our own work? Jim Bagnall is very sick and it can’t end with him. And what about the rest of us? Do we think men’s fights should end with us? Maybe it’s about being teachers now and passing the baton on too. Hey, feminists are trying to do this. They realised they missed a whole generation of women and are targeting the younger women.


OK, the end…… I hope I have given others something to think about and offered a topic where discussion that’s normally off topic isn’t off topic. I hope others add some information so everyone learns because I too only have a selective amount of memory and haven’t been in this long enough to understand everything.

Soooo what do you think? Should we start again?


  1. Well, julie i think you might find that some men feel like i do, they’ve been though it one way or another and know they are wasting their time. i have two children one child now in australia the other 9 years old still here with her mother . ive spent 15 years trying to have some say in both my daughters upbringings.i have had no say in the things im told i should have. religion ,health,schooling, ect none what so ever. i get told what to do and when,if i complain or show any dis approval im punished with threats.i am constantly told by daughter that they are looking at moving away to various destinations.My other daughter left the country with her mother without telling had as i said 15 years of battling just for my basic rights to have a relationship with her and had nothing but hell,heart ache and mental illness.i just let them go with no fight. i have simply given up. i keep my emotions and feelings at arms length with my kids as i have no idea when they will just get up and leave.ive always been a worker i am unable to buy a home of my own now because of the child support ties i have, although both my exes have homes of there own .One of them has been on the benefit for nine years.This is just scratching the surface of problems i have had with trying to get my basic rights with my kids and just to move on with my life.. So Julie im sorry to not really achieve anything for the mens movement today but i do feel better for having this outlet!!! i dont think it will be in my time of having children that things will change but im sure the tables will eventually turn.

    Thanks for listening.

    P.S If i can help in some way i will.

    Comment by lloyd — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 12:40 am

  2. Julie,
    you raise several questions starting with a premise I entirely disagree with.
    In my view the last several months have seen huge strides both in unity of purpose by MRA posters in the scope of information disseminated to readers through links to a massive veritable library of information on mens issues. This is expanding all the time too.
    On a more local level Mens Rights Activists have actually fended off significant attacks to the MENZ site from feminist trolls like ‘Mary’ and held their own against those who slipped backwards into unconsciously supporting female supremacist views.

    Yes, MRAs supporting one another is very important. But not to be confused with agreeing with others just for the sake of agreeing either mind you. That way lies the path of moral cowardice.
    I think it’s also very important to understand that the Mens movement as a grassroots organization will inevitably involve debate which is sometimes long and passionate. I think that’s very healthy. Inevitably with disagreements arise hurt feelings sometimes. All part of the process.

    You appear to valorize certain MRAs above others, which seems a shame to me as there are many others I could name who work to overcome misandry and gain men due civil rights. It looks like you yourself are therefore trying to create divisions amongst MRA by lauding some and ignoring others and by example encouraging others to do the same.
    I have another view. It’s not particularly new as I’ve stated it on this site before, and partly is in agreement with you, but I think bears repeating.
    There are amongst the MRA community many different specialisms which need to be developed. Some will focus mostly on child support issues. Others do sterling service challenging feminist social ‘science’. Others blog in a more personal way cataloging the daily indecencies inflicted upon them as men in a gynocentric culture etc, etc.
    Each has their legitimate place in like ducks flying in formation take turns to lead and follow on the long long journey of migration.
    Falling back from the exposure that comes with leading from the front from time to time seems very natural too.

    To ask if Men’s rights should end with us seems entirely inane, arrogant and much too pessimistic.
    Asking the question suggests men will somehow just roll over and allow themselves to be enslaved by female supremacists, their chivalric male consorts and corporate sponsors. Yes, that’s happened to a large extent. But as the old saying goes you can’t fool all the people all the time. MRAs aren’t leaving the stage anytime soon. Have no illusions there.

    As for starting again.
    I haven’t the foggiest notion what you’re on about unless you mean let’s all forgive and forget and move on together.
    That’s a fine sentiment, but in my years on this rock I’ve learnt it’s a very dangerous position to take to simply forget the behavior of folks who’ve shown no signs of having recognized the error of their ways. And lest I be interpreted as holier than though, please note I include myself in that statement too. I don’t expect to be automatically forgiven by folks for my transgressions either. Trust must be earnt.

    Lastly I want you to know I’m disappointed you’ve written such a lengthy diatribe as it demotes the vexing issue of female violence to further down the page.
    In these days of many people using laptops and smart phones that means they won’t see that issue of female violence as the banner issue (out of site, out of mind) but instead some woman giving the impression that MRAs in general and bloggers on this site are prideful, hurtful and disunited.

    Comment by Skeptik — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 8:16 am

  3. Thanks Skeptic. I had a similar reaction. I made little sense of whatever case Julie was trying to forward. What is meant by “rethinking” and “starting again”? Is the suggestion that current contributors seek further involvement with a few troubled individuals who previously showed they were unable or unwilling to keep either to basic rules or simple interpersonal courtesy and responsibility?

    There really is no need for us to do anything. Dad4justice has continued to make occasional postings and of course these will be welcomed if they are within the rules and not so violent as to subject us all to unnecessary risk of repression by agents of the state. The other few personae non gratae in forums such as this probably need only speak up with assurances they will maintain reasonable interpersonal standards, and I’m sure their contributions will be welcomed anew.

    Lauding certain personalities such as Dad4justice and Benjamin Easton ignores the serious damage their unrestrained behaviour has caused to the reputation and safety of the NZ men’s movement. Quite frankly, anyone who calls for renewed toleration of their foolishness seeks (whether deliberately or otherwise) to sabotage the movement. I agree with you also that singling out a few people as deserving of special mention seems designed to divide, especially when most of those singled out have themselves caused frequent division through rude belittling of others.

    I acknowledge everyone who has generously given their time and talents to discussing the serious social problems faced by men, and therefore society, in the current era. Anyone who contributes openly to the men’s movement is a martyr, paying a personal price through discrimination from a society thoroughly captured by feminist propaganda. Most who contribute here seek a better society for all. It’s a long, slow road but inch by inch our insights are spreading, challenging the erroneous beliefs instilled in the minds of the majority.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 10:26 am

  4. Skeptic,
    You bring up many good points and thank-you for saying them the way you have. I agree with everything you’ve written.

    I haven’t the foggiest notion what you’re on about unless you mean let’s all forgive and forget and move on together.

    I have to answer, “Yes, this is what I mean”.

    You sometimes write about men being included and I’ve thought it a good point. This site seems to be very special to MRAs which is a great compliment to John’s hard work and others, but it also means men who work for men’s rights are going to feel upset if they’re not a part of it.

    However, I’ve just realised 2 things. One is that John’s away and if men’s comments are moderated they might not show for a while and not at all if they break the rules.

    The other is that I might be asking for too much. Men are using different tactics to make a difference in society and what works for one doesn’t work for the other.

    I know there’s some men I couldn’t work with and they couldn’t work with me because we do things very differently and the ways clash even though we are working to achieve the same goals. Likewise sites are using different tactics and they too can clash.

    Still, I think it doesn’t hurt to rethink from time to time.

    Comment by julie — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 12:01 pm

  5. Hans, you have been able to see what I am saying because you’re writing about it. Thank-you for making your comment and putting forward worthwhile points.

    The fact that you and Skeptic are saying I should have named other MRAs will have me looking over the post to see where I should have added other names or mentioned there are other MRAs.

    To me, there are probably thousands of them working in all different areas of society with men and boys and they all deserve recognition for their work. It would be neat to know of them all and maybe one day NZ can do like Australia and give out yearly awards. It would be a good way for them to get to know each other also, IMO.

    Comment by julie — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 12:22 pm

  6. @ lloyd. Hold you head up high. There is only so much you can do for your kids. We live in a dark age. I completely and totally understand what you are saying and comming from. It took me 9 years to get to where you are.
    When I started out in this horror I could never imagine giving up on having a relatiosnhip with my children. Now I totally understand that it is a valid choice. Some others don’t get that, because they have had different experiences.
    All the choices faced by fathers in this system have serious negative consequences. Therefore they are also valid choices.
    I made the serenity prayer my personal philosophy (I added a line):

    Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and the wisdom to know the difference.
    It is so very hard to do this yet the rewards are so very great.

    Comment by Dave — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 12:48 pm

  7. Julie, I disagree with your fundamental assumtion also. The men’s movement is growing in deepth and width world wide like never before.

    Comment by Dave — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 12:51 pm

  8. Hi Lloyd, thank-you for your comment. I feel privileged you’ve shared your story with me and grateful. I’m disappointed in myself that you’ve written, “So Julie im sorry to not really achieve anything for the mens movement today” because I wasn’t wanting to come across as having an expectation on anyone.

    15 years is a long time to be battling just to be a father and treated with respect as a parent. You’ve survived and kept yourself sane enough to keep functioning. You’re paying off 2 houses and paying for your own rent. You’ve managed to still be a father and not cut these girls completely out of your life as well as financially supporting them. And you’re not misogynist from what you’ve been through. Above seem like good achievements to me.

    I wish this wasn’t your story but I know it helps others when you share it.

    I’m seeing women learn a lot from men’s sharing also lately and possibly things could change sooner than we think. Here’s hoping.

    Comment by julie — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 1:40 pm

  9. Hans makes very good sense and I would endorse his words and probably need to apply them better to myself at times. I can’t agree with Julie that the past few months would have to be the worst period of the online men’s movement. I think debate and constructive conflict is healthy but the use of four letter words self-defeating and unnecessary.

    This site provides different outlets for different men. I started out posting about my own situation and if I wanted, could recount stuff just as bad if not worse than many other personal postings. However, what is the point of that, I would be preaching to the choir. For me I’ve chosen to try to help empower through sharing knowledge and absorbing it from others who post here.

    For all of us men I personally see the fundamental need for all is how to deal with family law in this country, because at the end of the day it is precisely that is what has disenfranchised many of us as fathers. It’s taken me two years to come to this conclusion. Know thine enemy in a sense. I could rant and rave about injustice but thousands have done so and to what avail? Lenin said the capitalist will sell us the rope with which we will use to eventually hang him. I’m working on seeing how that theory pans out in a sense, but have no plans to join the communist party just yet!

    Comment by Gerry — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 2:13 pm

  10. Julie, I disagree with your fundamental assumtion also. The men’s movement is growing in deepth and width world wide like never before.

    Hi Dave, you make a good point. Not only is men’s voices being spoken up around the world but every thing’s ready to accept it. With this decade being about men’s research (going back a few years now) and everything already set up, it won’t be long and there will be a men’s area in the United Nations. Edit: Even if it’s not an actual men’s part but all genders come under one and men’s are one arm like women are one arm.

    Thanks for saying this. It gives me more hope that every thing’s working out just fine.

    Comment by julie — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 2:13 pm

  11. Just do a Google search on “father’s rights” or “child support” or any related key phrase once per year/month. Count the nukmber of matches. You will see how much the results keep increasing over time. When you compare it to feminist issues you can see where the trend is going.

    Comment by Dave — Sun 27th June 2010 @ 3:30 pm

  12. I recently saw a late night/early morning TV presentation about MENZ and decided to visit the website. As I expected, I saw nothing more than the usual “cause-and-effect” results common to virtually every failed relationship. Setting aside the reality of corrupt and biased legal systems all over the world, I ask a question… “How much of the material on this site would ever have been written if people simply learned to make their relationship choices using the proper set of priorities?”

    While a few of the twelve qualities specified in the old Boy Scout Motto may not be relevant to relationships, they will always be found in a good human being, regardless of gender. Extract a subset and call it the “Human Motto” which reads: “A Human is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent”. Use these qualities to unemotionally measure your prospective partner and see if that person still stacks up. Ignore the physical attraction factor initially. A superficially attractive person can become ugly with the speaking of a single word, and vice versa, so the physical attraction factor is initially unimportant and very likely to change as people take the time to get to know each other. Unfortunately, few people do this, so many have relationship problems. Until people step up a level and learn to prioritize correctly, they will continue to make their gross mistakes and wallow in their self-created miseries. As for the court cases, the weak will always be preyed on by the strong, and a lack of proper priorities makes a person weak.

    To close, replies to this post are pointless. I will not be returning to this site, so I will not see any replies. I have spoken the truth, and the truth is not subject to agreement or disagreement, therefore replies are pointless. Teaching is not pointless, so with this post, I have attempted to teach. Now it’s up to the individual to pay the price for any previous mistakes, and henceforth to think their own way out of their brown paper bags.

    Best wishes to all, and to all a good life.

    Comment by Doug — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 10:26 am

  13. Oh Dear, Oh Dear. What a hoot!
    Doug comes along and pontificates from on high then sallies forth back to his retreat having dispensed judgment uninterested in any form of dialogue and building any sort of relationship whatsoever with those he addresses.
    Major irony is in doing so he breaks his own Boy Scouts Motto by failing to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly and courteous, kind and reverent.
    For who trusts someone who just pontificates edicts, who runs away from engagement in dialogue hiding his fear that he just might get his ideas challenged behind a facade of god-like omniscience?
    Who would be fool enough to accept such facile behavior as kind and reverent?
    Do you feel kindly done to? revered having read this gloss-over of complex misandric cultural dynamics reduced to choosing ‘proper’ relationships?

    For Doug, should you ever DARE to return and read this thread -> I think you set a fine example of how NOT to behave in RELATIONSHIP to others.
    Hit and run is cowardly. Hit and run and calling it reverent kindness cruel and incredible.

    Comment by Skeptik — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 11:09 am

  14. “doug” sounds like a female to me. Yep certain of it. There seems to be a few of them recently.

    Comment by Kiwi in thailand — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 11:28 am

  15. To close, replies to this post are pointless.

    A severe case of lastworditis.

    Comment by rc — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 11:51 am

  16. And it’s complete bullshit too. Of course “Doug” will be back to at least view responses to her post.

    Comment by gwallan — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 12:16 pm

  17. @Gerry,
    Improvements to family law is not enough by itself.

    The current law and family court procedures are bent and twisted by family court officers as they wish to achieve the outcome they desire.
    What is needed is accountability, transparency and an easy way of recourse and complaints.

    There is a huge conflict of interest. Family Court is the very livelihood of lawyers, social workers, psychologist. All major players in family conflict. Their interest is to prolong the conflict.

    As for men representatives we need radicals. Not the sort that steals with the thief and investigates with the police. Not any radical either. The ones that can reason and hold their breath but will not buckle on principle of justice and fairness for all for the well being of society. I my self lost confidence in Family Court. I have a deadline set and after that I will not set my foot there.

    The Family Court intervention is radical and that call to a radical response.

    Imagine this. Every father that is being separated by the FC from his children will just walk away and refuse to see his children until the protection order is removed. You cannot raise or parent your children within the conditions of a protection order.

    Comment by tren Christchurch — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 12:46 pm

  18. Dear “Doug” I will freely admit I made a poor choice for a wife. I choose to focus on the good in her and I ignored the warning signs about the bad in her. Perhaps I should have stayed single until I found someone without faults. Then again perhaps I believe life is for living. Either way I freely admit I made a bad choice in selection of partner.

    You don’t explain why that means the children should be denied any contact with their loving Dad and the courts be worse than useless at protecting the children’s relationship with their Dad.
    You don’t explain why this should not cause me pain and misery.

    More importantly you don’t explain why the children should not suffer serious consequences as a result of being denied a father they loved and were close to.

    You don’t explain why trying to rectify this should have destroyed me financially, mentally, emotionally and taken years off my life.

    You don’t explain why any of this should be ignored when I haven’t done anything except a good loving father. I certainly gave the mother no justification to behave that way.

    But most of all you run like the wind rather than address the reality that these children suffer due to the selfish and spiteful behaviour of their mother.

    That would be OK. I am used to it.
    I’ve come to expect it.

    The problem is that it is not just my children. NZ society has created an entire generation of children suffering from fatherlessness. And that dear “Doug” is why your small minded post will not shut us up.

    That is also why even if a small group of individuals snipe at each other, the mens movement will continue to grow and gain political power.

    Comment by Dave — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 12:50 pm

  19. Truth is such a wonderful thing like beauty its in the eye of the beholder. How we view the world. Doug sees what he expects As I expected on MENZ – reality is he couldn’t resist visiting lol
    His world is interpreted from his experience, discounting the reality of men Setting aside the reality of corrupt and biased legal systems all over the world,As for the court cases, the weak will always be preyed on by the strong…

    But the most hurourous part is : I have spoken the truth, and the truth is not subject to agreement or disagreement, therefore replies are pointless. Teaching is not pointless, so with this post, I have attempted to teach

    Well i did learn one truth – Doug is a wanker (time waster) who assumes Doug’s superiority over humanity in Doug’s pontification – Which leads to my question :
    Could someone tell me what Dougs comment actually has to do with Julies post?

    Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 1:15 pm

  20. I’m with you here Dave
    and the others that suspect “doug” is actually a female.
    But back to my agreement with Dave, I admit as well that I made a poor choice on who I married. No one to blame but myself for being lumbered with such a harridan. I married the cow and that was my mistake and mine alone, our divorce was final almost 12 years ago and still I have to pay for that mistake, there is no time off for good behaviour and no allowance for time served the abuse continues unabated.
    I have found that the best medicine is living well and I always try to look on the bright side but beware as this can be a double edged sword as my happiness seems to have a direct correlation with her spitefulness. And as you said Dave why do the children have to suffer for a mistake I made so many years ago?

    Yep I think Dug might actually be another poor wee dear whose’s chosen user name was taken so she had to revert to the first thing that popped into her head, Im imagining hairy legged, severe short back and sides haircut, Flannel shirt and workboots version of helen clarke who likes to be called Bruce but hey who am I to judge


    Comment by mits — Mon 28th June 2010 @ 2:54 pm

  21. Dave, you made a mistake… it is not the choice of fathers to give up on a relationship with their children. We are forced into it. It’s like back in the day… go to war, or be shot! Hmmmmm…. great two choices there. I didn’t give up on a relationship with mine, I refused to be manipulated and mistreated and to see my children continue to suffer the same at th hands of the wimmins court and my ex. In other words I gave up on them and their system of torture than a relationship with my children.

    Comment by Scott B — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 6:44 am

  22. Scott you are absolutely correct. Eventually you come to realise that you did everything that you could. Eventually you come to have the wisdom to know this is one of those things you can’t change for your own children.

    Yes it is the SYSTEM that I have given up on as well.

    Comment by Dave — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 11:55 am

  23. We can’t expect to get anywhere whilst the Ministry of Wimmins Affairs still exists. That to me is public enemy #1 and should be at the top of the MRA’s agenda!

    Comment by Scott B — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 4:17 pm

  24. I think melding it into some other ministry will be a disaster. They will meddle away without the scrutiny. Far better to leave them on their own for all to see how irrelevant they are.

    Comment by Dave — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 4:23 pm

  25. I am saying just get rid of it. Not meld it into anything else. Just get rid of it.

    Comment by Scott B — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 4:35 pm

  26. I understand. The current thinking in government is to meld it into MSD.

    Comment by Dave — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 4:39 pm

  27. MSD?

    Comment by Scott B — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 4:40 pm

  28. The thing is that women are the majority gender in NZ, they are also the only majority group that I can find who get special treatment. STOP THE MINISTRY OF WOMEN”S AFFAIRS NOW!

    Comment by Scott B — Wed 30th June 2010 @ 8:27 pm

  29. The MRM is an unstructured movement with many, many individuals who seem to find it difficult to cooperate.

    Yes, there are some first class leaders around who do their part, but many get tired and there is always someone else who is eager to take the spotlight for a while and rabbit on with invective and antagonism, taking the MRM down distressing paths.

    I, personally, know a little of what Erin Pizzey feels in spades, and I suspect Jools does too. I get quite depressed seeing the vocal but illiterate (and the literate) egomaniacs and misogynists shouting and ranting and blaming, rather than focusing on achievable objectives.

    Forums and boards such as this facilitate the good as well as the bad though, and many people find their way here and there to learn and share their angst. Those that want to actually DO something usually do it offline and in the real world.

    But despite the misundertandings that we all have of one anothers’ views – largely due to poor articulation and the ‘style’ of this medium – we nevertheless have a ‘company’ that grows and discovers and encourages. There are alway some who – like our good and trusty friend Jools – get terse and ask the hard quetions, and make us consider. From it, one day, a true active and coherent effort may eventuate.

    What I fear for the MRM is what happened with ‘Feminism’. That the haters and the destroyers take over and throw out any semblance of constructivness.

    Comment by amfortas — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 1:28 am

  30. Maybe we as enlightened men, now realise that the “leaders” are the real psychos of the world. In USA there is Glen Sacks who speaks for men in our position. I have learned from my experience in New Zealand , not to follow bullies, charming self-interested men, people who do not listen, i listen to my gut instincts only.

    Destroyers are not the ones that take over, it is the Cardinal Richelieus, the devious Macchiavellian mole characters, The sort of man who used to be in the East German Stasi, but is now an democratic MP in the Bundestag. EXACTLY the same sort of men who has caused us all this grief. The men that will cause change to happen are honest, strong beliefs, maybe a little crazy, but feel very very strongly.

    Comment by martin swash — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 2:41 am

  31. Hi Armfortas,
    I agree with much of what you have said here.
    I think you’ll need to be clearer as to what you mean by haters and destroyers taking over and throwing out any semblence of constructiveness.
    To me it seems axiomatic to set out to defeat feminism AND create something in it’s likeness. A search on the web will find plenty of male angst and anger but I’ve been at this for decades now and never seen anything that for example mirrors the SCUM (society for cutting up men) manifesto or the hateful comments by the likes of feminists like Dworkin who called ALL relations between men and women raping of women (and got university lecturing curcuits dispensing such vitriol!).
    Indeed the occasional hateful comment usually from a man in deep distress soon gets challenged by more humane voices which oftentimes offer helpful advice to him on how to cope without going into a headlong irrational rage against all women. In fact there is a growing part of the MRM – Men going their own way (MGTOW) who appear to just want to disengage from modern women as much as possible because modern women have too much power to act irresponsibly with impunity.
    The MGTOW don’t advocate ‘The society for cutting up women’ but becoming part of the invisible ghost nation as a form of Ghandian passive resistance. Even those stirred to more active resistance usually do nothing more disruptive than climb buildings in batman outfits, throw a flower-bomb at the British Prime Minister and march in civil protest in High streets.
    Unlike the Black civil rights movement no cities have been torched, there’s no equivalent of the Black panther terrorist organization and nothing akin to other liberation movements acts of violent dissent like the IRA or Hamas either.
    No, I have no fear on that point.
    Indeed I’m proud to be part of a movement that has shown incredible restraint AND resilience in the face of decades of feminist ‘soft’ yet ruthless totalitarianism.
    This appears to be another kind of war – a culture war, and one in which I’m glad there are increasingly men’s (and some women’s) voices informing, debating, challenging and encouraging one another to carry on agitating for long overdue civil rights for men. The more savvy women are coming to realize that misandric harm to men has a habit of forming unintended but pervasive negative knock-on effects for women too. That bodes well.
    I’m of the view that women en mass WON’T change and become ACTIVE in supporting Men’s rights until they too feel significant pain.
    That’s not to say I wish pain upon them.
    Rather I just see the vast majority of modern day women as being unconscious that they’re power junkies who’s hypergamous instincts have been tapped into and channeled by self serving governments and corporations alike.
    Now like like any junkie (in this case one addicted to big government and disposability of men) they won’t change until they hit rock bottom….. which IS coming big time and won’t be pretty to watch.

    AND whilst I do think there is a Manbomb ticking away I don’t see it as being politically aware of itself as a class, nor hope for it’s ignition.

    One question I’m grappling with at the moment is how to deal with the combined forces of huge corporations and governments both who prosper by supporting feminism’s drive to alienate the sexes from one another – creating more and more singletons arising as a major cohort where previously couples, indeed whole families used to be creates more and more households for corporates to sell things to so they love that phenomenon indeed through mind boggling massive marketing and advertising campaigns appear to glamorize such.
    Once you spot this you begin to see just how hugely pervasive it is.
    Likewise governments have moved to a position in a little over 4 decades (an evolutionary blink of the eye) with women moving wholesale into the paid workforce where it can enjoy expansion way way beyond what came before that time. Massive bloated bureaucracies have been created peering into every facet of our lives from the bedroom and bathroom to the boardroom to the classroom, all of which we label in shorthand the nanny state (which incidentally has only grown despite both center left and center right governments being in office).
    In summary both state and corporate support of feminism is in my view a complex matrix resulting in modern men’s oppression which needs to be dismantled and replaced with social conventions, laws and organizations which restore dignity and civic inclusion to men.
    We Anglophile men ARE the second sex. We ARE the modern day negro. We ARE the minority, the ones with legitimate claims which go unheard in our modern day ignorant fast food, digital, shopping mall, sports and entertainment fixated culture.
    Yet we AREN’T the ones about to create an MRM which morphs into feminism’s female supremacist hate movement with it’s frenzied attack on all things male which we are all too familiar with………despite what feminists so terribly purblind of our history and culture would like us to believe.

    Comment by skeptik — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 3:00 am

  32. Amfortas,

    Thank-you for your comment and the nice words you’ve written. I consider Erin Pizzy someone I inspire to be like. She founded the domestic violence shelters and through dedication and perseverance built it into something worthwhile. I’ve been learning about other women who did the same and they, just as Erin, had radical feminists come along and take over their work. I beleive it has also happened to you and that you too have built things the same way as Erin Pizzy and others. I’m learning as I go.

    But I agree with Skeptic that radical men won’t take over the men’s movement but we think this for different reasons.

    The rest of what you wrote was good IMO.

    Comment by julie — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 6:26 pm

  33. Nice comment. Can you tell me what the opposite to MGTOW is? What does a man do who isn’t MGTOW?

    Comment by julie — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 6:28 pm

  34. That was a long and thoughful piece, Skeptik.

    I agree also with much of what you say. The same style of descent that the feminists made has been resisted as you say in the MRM but a similar blindness of thought occurs and people go off on different tangents that lead to just the same destructiveness though.

    What the MRM needs to do is develop a coherent philosophy which is not simply ‘anti-feminist’ but pro-reason and reality. It needs to have a discipline of thought and expression.

    Comment by amfortas — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 7:09 pm

  35. Nice comment. Can you tell me what the opposite to MGTOW is? What does a man do who isn’t MGTOW?

    Going one’s own way is fraught with adventure and the potential for moral catastrophe and for the few. The vast majority of people go the same way as everyone else. It is a herd.

    But rather than go with the flow of the masses or go one’s own way (a hubris) we need to ask The Question – ‘Whom does the Grail Serve?”.

    He who serves himself, has a fool for a Master and deserves the job.

    Comment by amfortas — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 7:18 pm

  36. When I studied economics, part of one lesson was on the, ‘me, me, me’ culture and how it came to be. There was a time when people stayed in one job from the time they started work to the time they retired. Now people stay in one job on average 5 years using the job as a means to gain experience so they can move up to a better job with better pay. Everything is now about the short term while everything in the past used to be about the long term.

    For example: The Asian culture used to be about each generation caring for the next generation. Families worked hard and saved their money but now, today, that money is being spent. The young Asians today are cashing in their family’s money for fast cars, expensive clothing and a good time.

    Seems like there’s a lot of fools around the world.

    Comment by julie — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 7:55 pm

  37. MGTOW = Hubris?
    I think not.
    As a MGTOW I recognize HUMBLY how VERY powerless I am in the face of MASSIVE corporate and governmental drive to support feminism. How this inflates the run of the mill female ego to gargantuan proportions and empowers the dark feminine of our times. Scarred and scared I remain.
    I therefore AVOID contact with all feminist indoctrinated women (vast majority of Anglophile and westernized women) as much as possible UNLESS I sense they are male sensitive, if only to a minor degree.
    Then I, like a magnet attach myself to them and get to work on incubating growth in that male sensitivity.
    And there in perhaps lies one of the paths for MRA men to take.
    Find THAT SPECIAL WOMAN in your community who appears somehow at least a little bit male sensitive despite the massive cultural forces enticing her into unconscious misandry and fiercely mentor her into the fullest alliance with male sensitivity (men’s issues) you can.
    At risk of seeming boastful I did exactly that recently with a woman in Germany and blew her mind! She will NEVER see the world the same way again. Doing so does several important things.
    It keeps me alert to the rationalizations used to support misandry as they will come up in her and you will then need to challenge them AND deal with her emotionality as her paradigm is dismantled bit by bit leaving her oftentimes bewildered and vulnerable.
    It will also mean that whilst being MGTOW I don’t end up so divorced from women’s issues as to become tyrannical and misogynistic.
    It give me something to strive for which is bigger than myself as an individual therefore sets me in a community, NOT above it.
    It’s a ‘tightrope’ sometimes as she always has the power to flip and hammer you with feminist misandric institutions, but one that can be mastered with lots of practice and self discipline. Other guys are better at it than me i reckon, but I’m getting there…..slowly.

    Comment by skeptik — Thu 1st July 2010 @ 11:20 pm

  38. Hi.
    You Men and Julie are amazing. I have spent many hours over the last 18 months or so reading your posts and comments. I believe and support your movement and I stand beside you. You are not wrong in what you are writing and I feel sad or angry sometimes for you and the NZ Society. I appreciate the intellectualism and enlightment that I get from the site. I do not have judgments personally with any of your postings because it takes courage to put your ideas out there into the arena where they become open to challenge,debate,criticism,acceptance.Take from it what you can for your growth and the movements growth. I think of you as soldiers with a righteous cause. If that sounds a little radical, it could be that I believe radicals are important for changing the status quo in an unequal situation and apathy is the enemy.
    Go you good guys!

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 2:25 am

  39. But at the end of the day, we are NOT getting anywhere Lindy Lu, we are faced with governments who only want to maximise their tax income (by having fathers paying taxes) and legal workers who have have vested interest in maintaining the status quo. There has been a whole new industry created that revolves around domestic violence , that feeds feminists, lawyers and politicians. Talking to governments never got anyone anywhere ! To make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs. Only action will ever change things.

    Comment by martin swash — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 3:01 am

  40. Thanks LL

    Comment by Dave — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 10:20 am

  41. Cheers LL.

    Comment by skeptik — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 10:56 am

  42. Good for you Skeptic. I hope everything works out well for you.

    Comment by julie — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 11:16 am

  43. Tis a lovely thing you have done by writing this Lindy-Lu. Thank-you.

    Comment by julie — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 11:27 am

  44. Hi

    Is it possible to model your organisation on the current feminist organisations rise and bring all your groups under the one umbrella, thereby increasing your numbers and power? At your AGM you would have consensus decision making and separate caucus groups. Afterwards a lobby group would take your proposals directly to sympathetic M.P’s and employees of the Beehive. Who are those people? Does this sound too simple? It worked for them.

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 4:20 pm

  45. Hi LL,
    I’m not sure what you mean by under one umbrella.
    What were you thinking of? Like NOW – National Organization for Women in USA?

    Comment by Skeptik — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 4:42 pm

  46. Yes. Like, all your groups would be united and come together for monthly regional meetings, with 2 or 3 representatives from each group and an AGM where policy is decided for government presentation.

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 6:47 pm

  47. Further thought. An AGM is a full on week-end starting of with dinner on Friday night followed by a pool darts bowls tournament with mixed group teams. (The femmes used to have a dance).
    The rest of the week-end is full on seeking resolution to the issues on the agenda.Consensus decision making is an interesting process to be a part of in such a short time. Hopefully it’s in everyones interest there to come to agreement.
    To maintain your individual groups integrity and adherence to your philosophy or group belief (you guys know what I mean and I am you sure have a better way of putting it) members need to apply to join or be asked to leave by the consensus of the group.
    We, the women will look after your homes and children so that you can do this, for it is in all of our interests that you have a positive outcome.

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 8:48 pm

  48. Hello Lindy-Lu.

    So, you hav been listening in and following the discussions ( I do that from time to time – not being in NZ myself) and now you are speaking up.

    Good for you.

    One thing you may have noticed is the strong reaction by some chaps to women making suggestions. Poor old Jools, one of my favourite women-in-the-MRM regularly gets roasted alive and carved into steaks and chops for ‘taking the lead’, and now here you are doing it.

    Good for you, again.

    Leadership is fraught with objection in the MRM. Every bugger is a Chief and few want to be the Indians that we are. To have a Mrs Chief is an anathema to many. But heck, someone has to do it!


    Good for U grlll.

    Comment by amfortas — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 9:01 pm

  49. Hi Amphortas.Thanks for the support from Australia. It is a little scary commenting on here but I am forthright enough to put my ideas out there and open to debate for the value of the information flow and my entertainment. If I am wrong I know somebody will tell me and I am always open to change for that is personal growth.
    Yes, It is probably is a bit cheeky suggesting what you guys could be doing. You have generously made this site open for both genders to post or comment on, so I took advantage to extend myself.

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 10:23 pm

  50. Lindy-Lu,
    What you’re saying sounds like the formation of a political party, which isn’t a bad concept considering how the current major political parties only occasionally pay lip service to men’s issues whilst continuing to strip men of their civil liberties and treating them in terribly heavy handed ways for decades now. The most recent example of this would be the current NZ government’s plans to ban smoking in prisons which are populated by something like 90% males. Never mind that it’s legal to smoke outside of prisons and that for many prisoners devoid of other stress management techniques it’s a way for them to relax and get through their time. After all their just men right? I expect one hell of a rage is going to well up in some prisons, perhaps even rioting when this comes in, but that’s another thread.
    A prototype of sorts for this organization has already been in existence in the Men’s Leadership gatherings which took place annually in Taupo. However they failed to get political traction and ameliorate NZ men’s continued sinking into 2nd class status. I think that was because they were heavily infiltrated by feminist men like Reese Helmondollar and Bob Harvey. There were NO politicians with an MRA perspective on board. So a major challenge for the formation of any such organization is going to be getting the right people involved. That means those with a solid long term background of Mens Rights Activism.
    I can think of several people I’d recommend that fit the bill. Whether they fancy being politicians is another matter.
    Also I wouldn’t mention their names online for fear of putting them in danger from feminists reading this site.
    I suggest if you want to take this further you contact people privately for their views to avoid that fate as this is a very delicate high stakes operation you’re suggesting.

    Comment by skeptik — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 10:50 pm

  51. I think too that with a concensus decision making group all the individual members are equally empowered in all decisions relating to the group and the umbrella organisation.
    However as has been so succinctly explained here, recently by Skeptic or Dad4Justice I think, there are natural leaders. They are the ones with the most knowledge and have qualities people want to share, be a part of and to follow.

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 10:52 pm

  52. Extend away, m’dear.


    Comment by amfortas — Fri 2nd July 2010 @ 11:05 pm

  53. Oops,sorry Amfortas spelling your name wrong. It gets too late and I make mistakes.

    Comment by Lindy-Lu — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 8:45 am

  54. Problem is, most of us have been so financially screwed that we wouldn’t be able to afford to attend. We have child tax, income tax, mortgages, power bills, water bills, phone bills, food to buy, petrol to buy, car rego, car warrant, the ETS now, petrol tax, a family to feed and cloth, further costs for our alienated/seperated children, doctors, dentists, vets… The list goes on and on, then add on lawyers and court costs… I for one am working at a loss!

    As for trusting women to look after our homes etc while we are away, No thanks, fallen for that before!

    Comment by Scott B — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 11:51 am

  55. That’s how a lot of us got into this mess!

    Comment by Scott B — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 11:53 am

  56. Poor old Jools, one of my favourite women-in-the-MRM regularly gets roasted alive and carved into steaks and chops for ‘taking the lead’, and now here you are doing it.

    I think I will frame this. 🙂

    Comment by julie — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 12:53 pm

  57. Julie,
    I can’t believe you’d be really so dumb as to need this explaining.
    No, no, no.
    Rather I think your question is a form of provocation.
    Playing the ‘naive enquirer’ is an old hat psychological trick.
    You appear to forget I’ve been way too long to fall for that one.
    I’m PROUD to admit I’m one of those who has whittled away at you over the years and I know you well enough to be clear about this.
    So, why do you want folks to be thinking about the opposite of Men Going Their Own Way?

    More and more men living in feminist cultures are going the MGTOW track (LINK HERE) and in effect quietly or openly saying modern women just aren’t worth the hassle (LINK HERE). Think about that for a moment.
    Let it sink in.

    Speaking as a MGHOW myself, I can say that personally taking this path has seen an end to years of my trying to adapt to a toxic culture and has been a huge release.
    I DO NOT envy any man in a relationship with a woman in feminist culture these days. How suffocating!
    For I couldn’t live with the constant walking on eggshells knowing she could switch at any moment and bring the behemoth feminist state crushing down on me. Been there, done that and somehow survived!

    Comment by skeptik — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 2:00 pm

  58. Skeptic,

    I can’t believe you’d be really so dumb as to need this explaining.

    Aren’t you a nice fella.

    Comment by julie — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 4:49 pm

  59. Julie,
    I can’t believe you’d be really so dumb as to need this explaining.
    No, no, no.
    Rather I think your question is a form of provocation.
    Playing the ‘naive enquirer’ is an old hat psychological trick.

    That’s how it comes across to me as well.

    I think this is a good point to remind ourselves of a powerful technique used to persuade people to change their minds – that of getting them to personally phrase an idea they would normally resist.

    Companies do this all the time to persuade people to buy their products. What they do is offer a large cash prize to the winner of a writing competition, the only rule being that the writing begins ‘I like [insert product name here] because…’.

    The exercise draws on our psychological need to be consistent. Once we commit our thoughts to writing and show it to others, we are much more inclined to be loyal to whatever it is that we wrote. Even if we wrote about something we knew absolutely nothing about, we become attached to whatever we made up and feel a need to be consistent with it. In being creative and expressing in our own words a subject that someone else has suggested for us, we can convince ourselves of things counter to our own interest.

    The Chinese did this to great effect during the Korean War, by holding political essay writing competitions with small prizes to American POWs (they didn’t even need to suggest a topic, as the prisoners knew their best chance of winning was to pay respect to Communism in some small and seemingly harmless way).

    It is heavily used by Feminists in anger management courses, where public confession to problems are mandatory, regardless of whether you have the problem or not. Getting you to mouth the words and be witnessed doing so, is the first step in making you believe you are inherently dangerous, no matter your character or whether you were exposed to unreasonable forces.

    So Julie, even though you had no such intention, asking men to describe for you “what is the opposite of MGTOW?” comes across as getting men to express and define something that undermines MGTOW, and in the process perhaps recognizing themselves as something else.

    I would challenge all men to think hard about what MGTOW is to them, and in what ways it counters Feminism (though if I was accused of being deliberately manipulative,I would have to answer ‘Guilty!’)

    Comment by rc — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 5:54 pm

  60. RC,

    So Julie, even though you had no such intention, asking men to describe for you “what is the opposite of MGTOW?” comes across as getting men to express and define something that undermines MGTOW, and in the process perhaps recognizing themselves as something else.

    Thanks rc,
    You put words together well. It’s a shame my question comes across this way because it could have lead to interesting conversation. But never mind, there will be other opportunities. 😉

    Comment by julie — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 7:57 pm

  61. Julie,
    I’m not interested in being a nice fella by you’re definition – obviously one who agrees with you.
    I’m not here to be nice, I’m here to advocate for men’s rights which doesn’t for a moment include trying to entice men to stop becoming MGTOW.
    But I’m sure I’m not alone in still wondering why you want folks to think about the idea of being the opposite of MGTOW.
    I imagine the reason for that is you’re shit scared of the idea of more and more men deciding women in feminist cultures aren’t worth the hassle any more. That would leave you very isolated and lonely.
    Still instead of attacking the me the messenger with your ‘aren’t you a nice fella?’ snide rhetorical question you could do something constructive instead like asking

    ‘What would it take to stop increasing numbers of men becoming MGTOW and want to get closer to women again?’


    ‘How can women help to create a culture SAFE ENOUGH for men to stop taking the MGTOW route?’

    It’s all rather sad and pathetic really.
    I’ve mentored you for years patiently explaining things to you time and time again helping you make paradigm shifts from being VERY feminist in outlook to being much more male sensitive and here you are biting the hand that feeds you and coming across as a subtle feminazzi.
    Oh well Rome wasn’t built in a day.

    Comment by skeptik — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 9:52 pm

  62. Skeptic, The neat side about growth is that you learn from lessons. I’ve grown from reacting to your insults.

    If this post is getting to you, please find another to add your advocacy to. Better still, it’s been a long time since you’ve written a post and you have a lot of knowledge to share.

    Comment by julie — Sat 3rd July 2010 @ 11:05 pm

  63. Julie,
    I’m clear that I’ve replied to literally hundreds of your postings at MENZ over the years and that if I’d issued the insults you claim I would have been banned from posting here. So to paint me as being some insulting bogeyman seems ridiculous.
    Asking me to post seems absurd also. I do just about daily, some days several times!
    So no need to worry about those aspersions.

    So to recap, you start by asking us to rethink the Men’s Rights Movement by apparently supporting some MRAs over others which appears divisive, then appear to play dumb as you encourage us to consider some imaginary alternative to being MGTOW.
    In the process you relegate the banner issue on the site of dealing with women’s violence with a diatribe so long it becomes invisible on laptops and handhelds!
    When these things are pointed out to you are given strong but respectful feedback about how that comes across as subtle feminazzi you react with snideness.
    Folks who read MENZ regularly know me well by now Julie.
    If I perceive the slightest whiff of your possible regression back into being unconsciously feminist in you I’ll call you on it.
    That’s exactly what I’m doing now.
    I’m mirroring back to you your behavior and asking you to raise your game.

    Comment by skeptik — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 2:56 am

  64. then appear to play dumb as you encourage us to consider some imaginary alternative to being MGTOW.

    There are many alternatives to MGTOW. While it may be an appropriate response for some, a response is what it is nontheless, rather than an initiating action.

    MGTOW may be seen as an individual soldier unit, but wars are fought wth a large variety of formations. A Battalion is an alternative to a four-man SF Team or a warship or a tank squadron. Few men are born to be Rambo.

    MGTOW = Hubris?
    I think not.

    It can be. Not alway of course, but often. Pride is one thing when appropriately earned but hubris is quite another when grasped at. But they have the same basic root.

    The dominant feature in the rise of the human being as such a successful creature is his ability to cooperate. We can go our own way of course, with two legs and two hands, but we achieve a great deal more than is possible for one man by joining with others and having two hundred hands.

    I think you are being unduly combative Skeptik, with this continual knocking of Jools. There is no need to shoot at folk who are on the same side when there are enemies arrayed right infront of you.

    Comment by amfortas — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 3:19 am

  65. Armforats,
    MGTOW are forming more ‘battalions’ as we speak.
    Simply visit spearhead for confirmation.
    When Julie behaves like this I wonder if she is on the same side.

    Comment by skeptik — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 3:56 am

  66. Skeptic,

    I apologise for the post and for the question. As you don’t consider apologies to mean anything without action, I’ll do my best to be aware of what I write in the future.

    Comment by julie — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 11:01 am

  67. There are many alternatives to MGTOW. While it may be an appropriate response for some, a response is what it is nontheless, rather than an initiating action.

    Since we’re on a site having a discussion, …… I think people choose some parts of their ‘doing life’ but as you wrote earlier, “The vast majority of people go the same way as everyone else.”

    To me, your environment effects how you do life. For example, cities usually mean fast, competitive, short term, cut throat ect and you have to be thinking of yourself to survive. Where as country life, suburbs and towns are slower, less competitive, focusing on the community rather than self etc.

    IMO, these reactions do have an effect on the larger society. For instance, there is a greater need for childcare in cities than the country, charity work adapts to how people can access it, lobbying methods change, business changes, and men and women adjust to each to other.

    Comment by julie — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 11:43 am

  68. Julie,
    Thanks for the apology.
    Characterizing a man you’re having a disgreement with as ‘insulting’ to try and shame him into silence is another thing which is typical of feminazzi too.
    Jeeze, I could get paid for this!
    In another context it’s called supervision. LOL!

    I can assure you being MGTOW definitely IS an action, MGTOW are rapidly finding one another and being very supportive to each other. Their rise after the abject failure of more conservative MRAs to make more than a small dent in the encrusted feminist zeitgeist has been impressive. Whilst much of their language is course slang and there is a certain naivette to many of their postings that is to be expected. After all they come most often from a terribly underfathered generation so lack some of the social graces of previous generations. However their energy is compelling, whereas conservative MRAs seem largely dull and ineffective to me.
    They have adapted to the times with much clarity and I learn allot from them.

    Comment by skeptik — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 1:33 pm

  69. I applaud all movement toward growth, Skeptic, and it is good to see the chaps of MGTOW getting together. Small and large formations are needed; that was my point.

    But let us all face in the right direction and not quibble about the style of armour of the chap (or chapess) next to us.

    Far too much is made of plumage when what matters is arsenal. And Tactic. And Strategy. And Warcraft.

    Comment by amfortas — Sun 4th July 2010 @ 3:25 pm

  70. Julie,
    Thanks for the apology.
    Characterizing a man you’re having a disgreement with as ‘insulting’ to try and shame him into silence is another thing which is typical of feminazzi too.
    Jeeze, I could get paid for this!
    In another context it’s called supervision. LOL!

    I wasn’t having a disagreement with you.

    But I wonder why you wrote this? As the saying goes, “It’s not the losing I have a problem with, it’s the bragging from the winner afterward.”

    Yet maybe it’s isn’t about competitiveness. Perhaps it’s because of misogyny.

    I didn’t expect the post to become an issue for men who participate on overseas websites or have knowledge of the MRM on a global scale, but since it did, I believe I was respectful in my comments and acknowledged the diversity of the movement on the whole.

    I got more than I expected from writing this post and even though I apologised because you weren’t happy with it, I don’t regret it. I think I’ll live to regret the apology though.

    The question seemed over the top but I put that down to a couple of nice comments saying something positive about me. You were able to pick one sentence of a conversation and manipulate it to reflect a behaviour some MRAs consider ‘feminazi’. Adding the ‘you can’t get laid’ shame (this is feminists, … masculists is ‘you can’t get a man’) and I’m dumb reflect your frustration.

    It’s a shame I’m so active in the real world because you’d score better at my expense if you could pick on something that’s real. It’s also a shame that I say positive things to you and about you and all I get back in return is, “I’m not here to be nice (to me).”

    But even worse is that you feel the need to score at my expense and to pull me down. You’re right, you have been doing this for years.

    TBH, I’m not upset with you because there is a part of the MRM that condones this through understanding men are hurt. But I am concerned that I will look to some readers as a lonely, desperate women because I allow this in my life but then again, I have so many people that think well of me that I can bounce back for another punch (figuratively speaking).

    I chose this cause when I was looking for a way to pay back to society for what was given to me and it suits me as a mother of boys. I also get a foot in the door easier by being a woman and from my own life experiences and I enjoy mixing with people.

    Wow, what a long rave. But if I’m going to have to work with others I’m going to need to stick up for myself. Otherwise, I’ll be giving some people the green card to take their past problems out on me.

    Comment by julie — Mon 5th July 2010 @ 1:15 pm

  71. Julie,
    C’mon you clearly WERE disagreeing with me and trying to silence me through inducing shame by making out I’ve insulted you repeatedly.
    Quote “I’ve grown from reacting to your insults”.

    You then have the gall to suggest I’m a womana hater!
    Oh my god this just gets cheesier!
    Quote “perhaps it’s about mysogyny”
    Then again perhaps it’s about blue cheese, or paper airplanes or any other meme you wish to imagine and throw out there!
    Incidentally accusing a man who he gives you a legitimate challenge of being a woman hater (misogynist) is another classic and by now very tedious feminist tactic!!
    You believe you were respectful in your comments.
    Wow! That’s incredible!
    Quote “Aren’t you a nice fella”.
    I can feel the seething hostility leaping off that sentence. Not even a question mark at the end!
    You go on to claim I’m dealing with something that’s not real.
    I’ve ni idea what you’re on about with that comment.
    It’s real to me that you were challenged over a posting and apologised.
    Lastly the cherry on the top where you accuse me trying to pull you down.
    NO, definitely not the case Julie,
    I’m actually challenging you again to climb higher.
    AND I wouldn’t waste my time challenging you again and again if I thought I had little chance of you rising to meet the challenge.
    If you’d bothered to ask about this aspect of my behavior I could have told you that.
    I could praise you highly, but not in the face of whining and blame shifting, and especially not in the face of tired old feminist tactics.
    Go figure.

    Comment by Skeptik — Mon 5th July 2010 @ 4:34 pm

  72. It’s a shame my question comes across this way because it could have lead to interesting conversation.

    I think it already has led to interesting conversation, particularly because it isn’t so predictable. Consider it a success.

    Making ourselves aware of clever psychological ploys to manipulate other people’s thinking, even if we only stumble onto them, can only equip us better for the ongoing task of dismantling Feminist doctrine and ridding public policy of its influence. I’d advise all readers to read Robert Cialdini’s excellent book “Influence”, in which he outlines basic psychological traits we all share, and the many clever ways businesses and politicians exploit these traits for their own purposes.

    Once we recognize how we are being gypped, we can then go the next step and use the same techniques to our advantage. For example, in furthering the cause for men you could infiltrate feminist talking circles and pose questions like ‘how could MGTOW be used to promote women’s welfare?’. Not only would you introduce the term to many who haven’t yet heard it, you would harness women’s mental energy to think of good reasons why they should support it – and people are always more willing to be enthusiastic about ideas if they think they came up with them.

    Comment by rc — Mon 5th July 2010 @ 5:14 pm

  73. Julie,
    C’mon you clearly WERE disagreeing with me and trying to silence me through inducing shame by making out I’ve insulted you repeatedly.
    Quote “I’ve grown from reacting to your insults”.

    Haha. I could sit here reminding you that I was very pleasant in all my comments by saying, “Good points Skeptic” and “Good for you Skeptic” plus more until you decided to call me dumb…. but I know where this is going and think if I’m willing to waste time I should at least write a decent post on this site or my own.

    So for the rest of your comment I’ll just say, “Keep up the wonderful work you do”.

    Comment by julie — Mon 5th July 2010 @ 5:56 pm

  74. Skeptic,

    Incidentally accusing a man who he gives you a legitimate challenge of being a woman hater (misogynist) is another classic and by now very tedious feminist tactic!!

    I deliberately used the word ‘misogyny’ instead of misogynist so that I wasn’t accusing you of being a woman hater but instead suggested perhaps the ‘hating women’ environment had an affect. But as you pointed out (in a humorous way, I should add), perhaps there’s another reason or reasons.

    But look, I think this site is excellent and I think what you and other men write is powerful, educating and a picture of men’s reality. Sometimes I’m told about a man’s circumstances and asked if there’s anywhere he can go, and I unhesitatingly direct them here.

    Sometimes I am disrespectful to men here and start writing things I shouldn’t and sometimes I forget that really I’m a guest as a woman. I don’t want to be competing or disrespectful or stopping men from using this site to talk about what’s happening to/for them, giving their opinions, venting, and talking about solutions. This IMO is a godsend in a country where there’s few places a man can turn.


    I don’t like being seen as a femi-NAZI because I should care that NAZI represents a group that tortured and killed my relatives as Dutch gypsies. I’ve got no idea how someone outside the MRM would perceive me when they read I’m a female (femi) NAZI but I know it wouldn’t be good.

    Because of all the things above, (both comments) I know I need to adjust better. I’d still like to share something as a post if I consider it important and I feel I’ve learnt enough to know what is the right thing to post about and what is the wrong thing. This has been considered wrong and it could be partly my wording and expression and the fact I had an ulterior motive.

    I’m thinking that from now on if I do write a post I’ll consider it’s wider appropriateness and that I’ll not make comments. As much as I like to send men and women here for them, I can’t help but want them to see me in a good light and moreso if they’re a journalist or someone that I’m going to need in the future.

    The comments you, Hans and Dave wrote about the MRM’s growth is 110% (hehe) correct IMO. Men’s voices are rising rapidly these days and it’s fair to say it’s because of the men who stepped up on sites like this. I think whatever men do is great because it’s ‘doing something’ and actions always make for something. I think IMO, just the fact men are speaking out in such a collective voice means things will change.

    PS: I don’t want to be jumping back and fro in my comments so I’d like to leave it at this. If you write a comment, I’ll just read it and take it on-board.

    Comment by julie — Tue 6th July 2010 @ 3:50 am

  75. Julie,
    My point is simple.
    If you don’t like coming across like you’re some feminazzi then you need to stop behaving like them.
    Then I’ll trust you and have no need to challenge you.
    They troll men’s sites spilling out reams of stuff folks can’t make sense of (Hans and I called you on that one).
    In the process they drown out men’s voices (I called you on that by saying you’d submersed a banner posting about where women’s violence was being discussed).
    They try to get folks to think in ways only they are comfortable with by asking directing conversations with agenda loaded questions (Dave, mits and I spotted that one).
    They react when challenged personally or hearing women collectively challenged by calling the challenger/s women haters to shame them whilst waiting for white knights and banshees to come to their rescue.
    They use the power of censure to silence men.
    Curiously I’ve spent much time trying several times to post on this thread only to find my post was blocked.
    I was however able to post those comments on other threads so I’m at least clear it’s not an IP address issue.
    Don’t fool yourself into thinking that I can’t empathize with Gypsey’s plight at the hands of the Nazzi either.
    My Grandfather was Gypsey. That makes me quarter Romany Gypsey myself.
    He married and stayed faithful to his childhood sweetheart – a woman who lost ALL eleven of her siblings plus her Mom and Dad when a Nazzi doodlebug rocket bomb scored a direct hit on her home in East London during the blitzkreig. Luckily she was out with an Aunt in a nearby park, but as you can imagine was traumatized for life.
    So I don’t use the term feminazzi lightly.
    If you’re going to continue to put yourself forward as any kind of leader in the men’s rights movement especially as a woman you need to look and behave above reproach.
    Men’s wounds over several decades run deep and our memories are long. If you do ANYTHING that reminds us of feminist wounding behavior you’ll fail.
    I’m not of ashamed either of having said I could get paid for this. In another setting it would be called supervision.
    That comment was designed to shame you. Simple to say hey I know it’s toughlove but don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
    However I don’t look for payment. I do it for selfish reasons. It means I’m part of a community – something feminists and misguided chivalrists cruelly stripped me and millions of other guys of. In brief it gives me something to live for.
    If I’m not working towards creating more justice in the world I’m simply a narcissist and worthless to anyone.
    You’ve come a long way since I first met you online at MENZ several years ago.
    I’ll keep pushing you forward if i think it’s necessary by giving you a male perspective on things to make sure you don’t slip back which is probably very easy to do in feminist dominated NZ.

    Comment by skeptik — Tue 6th July 2010 @ 4:44 am

  76. ERROR –
    My apology for writing “That comment was designed to shame you”.
    It should have read “That comment was NOT meant to shame you”.

    Comment by skeptik — Tue 6th July 2010 @ 11:09 am

  77. Hey Skeptic,

    I wrote I would just read your comment and leave my say with my last comment….. However, I want to say. “THANK-YOU” for this

    Comment by julie — Tue 6th July 2010 @ 6:40 pm

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