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Family court advice sought

Filed under: Law & Courts — pete @ 12:28 am Wed 14th September 2011

Scuse the long-winded post but I’m basically looking for advice regarding the Family court but quite frankly any advice about my current circumstances would be appreciated.

I live in Auckland. My ex-partner of 11 years left home unexpectedly in March 2011 taking our two young children (3 and 7 years old). She said when she left that she had not loved me for years and has never provided an explanation although I did find out one month before she left that she is bisexual and has been so for at least 6 years but she could always have been this way. I was devastated and tried everything to save our family, all to no avail and with much frustration. Our separation has been unamicable and she has always been difficult about my seeing the children amongst other things.

She has behaved in a malicious and vindictive manner on numerous occasions. I found out not long after she left that she had forged my signature on a 20k home loan, which she received and spent on a business venture. There is a fraud investigation currently in progress by our joint mortgage provider bank although it is currently stalled as I’ve said I wouldn’t formally act as a witness against her as I thought it would make my circumstances even more difficult with regards our children. The bank has told me the ball is my court with this matter and they will contact me again in a month. I am beginning to think she deserves a dishonesty charge and may well support the case, as I can’t see how she can make my life any more difficult. We also have a joint mortgage on a rental LAQC property.

She has always had a lawyer although he only contacted me once briefly and has taken no action in spite of her threats that she can have me evicted! I recently changed the locks and alarm code much to her outrage, as I believe I have a right to and I don’t trust her. I’ve told her she can arrange with me to come round anytime that suits us both if she wants to collect anything of hers. I believe we have to agree on any joint assets within the home that she would like to take possession of i.e. chattels, furniture, kid’s beds etc .She has told me her lawyer says she can access the house whenever she wants without permission and she can have the locks changed too.

The most sensible thing to do from a business perspective would be to rent both properties out and sell them at a later date once they are more presentable, the house I’m in is partially renovated but I’m not sure if she would be amenable to that so it’s looking like we’ll need to sell both properties. I would like to be independent from her anyway. She would ideally like to move back in have me rent a flat. I don’t want to give her the upper hand but this might be the best answer too. She ignores all my efforts to talk.

The pressing problem I have now is that my current contract ends at the end of November and I may not be able to meet the mortgage payments until my next contract starts in Feb but the current situation is not affordable or ultimately sensible for me anyway.

I still reside in the family home and have been meeting the substantial mortgage repayments since March. I have stopped paying support for the kids and suggested we go to the family court to sort this out.

I have resisted getting a lawyer to date as I can’t afford one and don’t know why I need one anyway.

I am Scottish and have no family or close friends here for support or advice. Her family and friends have been unhelpful.

I don’t know anything about the family court. Should I go to the family court without a lawyer? I believe all assets are shared 50/50. Do I need a lawyer to help me sign some sort of agreement with her lawyer over how this should be realised, period etc?

Has anyone had a similar experience? I just want to get my some security back and see my kids every week without the uncertainty and games, my ex plays over this matter.
Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
Jaculable Jock


  1. I can’t speak for NZ, but in the US, at this point, it would be considered that she has vacated the premises. As an owner, she would have some limited rights to enter, but you would be protected in much the same way as a tenant. I believe.

    As far as working things out, she likely sees you as less than a worm. Women who see their husbands as human beings don’t take their kids from them and play games like that. Treat her with little thought and as somebody who has attempted to defraud you. That’s my take.

    I would also point you toward both and

    Comment by archmage_lo — Wed 14th September 2011 @ 2:44 am

  2. Hi Pedro – I suggest you visit Men’s Centre North Shore one Monday night.

    Comment by JohnPotter — Wed 14th September 2011 @ 8:44 am

  3. Do get her charged for fraud, it is not a small amount we’re talking about here.

    Comment by Scott B — Wed 14th September 2011 @ 8:58 am

  4. I am taken back by the fact you give your phone number. But then I am thinking you are looking for someone to charge you, lol.

    I will defend you – how much does her lawyer cost?…..
    Just kidding.

    Hi Pedro – I suggest you visit Men’s Centre North Shore one Monday night.

    Yeah, you are lucky to live in Auckland. This is the best advice and these men are free. Hey, at least give them half the lawyer’s cost when they do all for you. That way they can help others as they don’t get state ect funding.

    Comment by Julie — Thu 15th September 2011 @ 7:08 pm

  5. Given the presumption that you don’t know much about the family court and the care of children act, I would definately get you to speak to the Mens Centre on Nrth Shore and then find a good lawyer.
    It makes no difference to your ex if you give evidence about the fraud or not. She will be vindictive either way. However, by having her charged for fraud will show the court the type of person she is.
    Alhough this is someone you have loved, when things go bad, you can expect trouble, especially if you ex has taken the children.
    Ask yourself this; how often can you look after the children? If you can manage 50% of the time then go for it.
    Do not think that if you appease her that she will return the favour. People that treat you like crap do that because they don’t care about you – and it’s hard to not appease them as you probably want a quiet life. Unfortunately you are going to have to involve the family court at some point and that means lawyers. Lawyers create conflict as it’s in their interests to drag out matters.
    I hope this helps you; just remember you are not alone. Every father who fights for his children’s rights to see his children is a hero. We need as many heroes as we can muster.. for our kids sake.

    Comment by noconfidenceinNZfamilycourt — Fri 16th September 2011 @ 6:56 pm

  6. Hi,
    thanks to everyone who has commented. It’s much appreciated and good to know there is empathy and support out there. I will make sure I get along to the mens support group on a Monday night. I realise I need a good lawyer and I have to go through the family court process sometime soon. Still happy to hear any advice or suggestions.
    All the best

    Comment by pedro1690 — Fri 16th September 2011 @ 8:17 pm

  7. i am representing myself and i need some help,Do i have to respond to a memorandom of counsel…and what does it mean??

    Comment by paul — Tue 20th September 2011 @ 8:15 pm

  8. The short answer to your question is no if it is lawyer for child and if her counsel has made submissions then normally you would have been expected to as well. That is your own submissions not a reply to hers.
    Where in New Zealand are you? Self representing is a good idea but you need support from someone who knows preferably an experienced McKenzie Friend. Pauls News is a much better place than here to seek advice on self representing. It is a discrete and closed group.
    Flick me an e-mail to [email protected] and I will put you on to people who can help.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Wed 21st September 2011 @ 8:46 am

  9. take a protection order out on her and include your kids in it.and dont feel sorry for her and how would her going up on fraud charges make you look like a bad father?..makes her look it..have her charged..

    Comment by Ford — Sun 25th September 2011 @ 8:39 am

  10. guessing her lawyer is a female?..yours too huh?

    Comment by Ford — Sun 25th September 2011 @ 8:42 am

  11. Hey there

    You sound like me when this happened to me 10 yrs ago…. Too nice.
    Don’t let the fraud charge go for the sake of avoiding unpleasantness – she clearly isn’t worried about hurting you which she will continue to do if you play nice.

    I’m not saying don’t mind your Ps and Qs, but basically if she’s already being nasty then don’t give her an inch.

    Easy for me to say – I’ve just worked this out now after 2 or 3 informal counselling sessions, 2 family court mediations, and 3 lots of Family Court counselling. I cut the last one short as I was told I had created a false reality in my head that she was always out to abuse me. Talk about psycho-babble. I walked out and I’m not going back again. They make you feel like the bad guy every time. You are not a bad guy (yes I can tell).

    Oh and I won’t be using a lawyer again if it goes back to court, if thats any help.

    Comment by Jack — Mon 26th September 2011 @ 6:48 pm

  12. Dont waste your life or your money in the family court. I spent 9 years in that system and have nothing positive to say about any of it.
    The system is totally geared towards the female. You will be subjected to every dirty tactic imaginable, and then some, as bad behaviour towards the kids, is acceptable and is never punished or addressed if your the mother. My new wife and I just walked away from seeing my daugher, because we could no longer deal with the behavioural concerns of the mother. After 9 years and 300K in the courts defending my name against everything imaginable, we still have nothing positive to show for it. We have done it all, counselling, judicial conferences, lawyers for child – this family court circus is a business purely for lawyers – they dont give a toss about the kids or their welfare. My daughter has two psychological reports detailing the damage the mothers behaviour has caused her, and nothing has been done to change that – unless of course I want to spend many more $$$ and waste my life in court.
    Walk away, split the property as best you can and as quickly as you can – ( go to court directly when the hearing is set – you dont need all that paperwork bullshit ) just turn up talk directly to the judge and try and get agreement recorded for some peaceful quality time with your kids – big blocks of time over the holidays is probably the best – because at least then you can see them without interference and problems from your ex. Establish as much distance as you can between yourself and the ex. Correspond ONLY by Email or text – so that what you say is in black and white. Dont expose yourself to the opportunity for false accusations because that will happen. You will be constantly provoked – a reaction is what they want. Just walk away.
    Good luck. Look after yourself first and foremost and when your kids are old enough, be strong and ready to receive them.

    Comment by hornet — Mon 10th October 2011 @ 9:05 pm

  13. Hornet and other,
    Those who self-represent and work to a strategy tend to achieve reasonable contact with their children in a 1-2 year period of time. Lawyers often do not reach solutions as they have a vested interest in prolonging conflict rather than resolving it.
    Union of Fathers arose from activists who felt the same was as you have and strategised to find ways of achieving more success in Court or the wider family law process.
    WE find that in about 80% of cases we can reach results that do not require one side to walk away and children can have positive contact with Both parents.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 10th October 2011 @ 10:00 pm

  14. one to two years
    Really ???
    Thats the fast track?

    What does that do the children involved?

    And at the end of that process “reasonable contact” not great contact but at least it’s reasonable
    And at the end of 1-2 years 80% have not only “reasonable” but also “positive” contact with their own children. I repeat their own children.

    What about the other 20% of victims of this farce.

    No sorry Allan
    While I agree with you that cutting the lawyers out is a very good idea they arent the only snouts in the trough. Avoid them all I say. Fathers and children will always come second in such a place and the legal parasites and all their hangers on are only feeding into that misery

    Comment by Mits — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 7:09 am

  15. If we withdraw from the Courts things will get worse.
    Where men have persisted in Courts things have got much better.
    Tauranga was once considered the worse Court in the country now it gets much better results for men.
    The 20% often choose to be victims and to actively remain with that label. There are also a small percentage that cannot be helped because of a variety of other reasons.
    We cannot win them all.
    Yes 1-2 years is fast track when I started in this game 10 years ago it was 2-5 years. Some things have improved.
    You are also correct that “a child’s sense of time” (s5 of CoCA) is a joke. But it is there and is worth pushing for. I can give Boshier credit for at least having the possibility of faster tracks and some cases have resolved in a fair and equitable manner in 1-3 months. Compared to 10 years ago that is lightening speed.
    The only faster option is recognition of a default position of shared care and it is in the Family Court Review if we want to push it. Admittedly it is opposed there but it’s mere inclusion speaks volumes about how far we have come in 10 years.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 12:52 pm

  16. Allan and others,
    So you all know my position – I was a company owner and was at all times available to have extended time with my child but I was never allowed it, I have a new wife and child going on nine years now – I have never been violent, never threatening, I enjoy a social drink but not every week, have never been a heavy drinker, I don’t gamble, and I do not engage in anything else that could be considered a negative against me as a father, or something which may prevent me seeing my child – all these things I was accused of in court and I had to successfully defend myself at huge cost – and I had to make sure that ex- parte applications for violence and protection orders never succeeded, which they tried – my point in all this,, if the ability of the other party to make claims which are unfounded or proven to be false were subject to significant penalty to the lawyer and the alledging party who make those make false allegations – then it would at least put in place a significant deterrent and remove this tactic from the lawyers and ex partners in their quest to get leverage over property settlement and or child support. That is a significant issue currently in this confrontational system. The depravation of seeing your child is also significantly damaging on a man and coupled with the above, this seems to be the other tactic used to cause distress and or provoke the man into doing something. A father should at separation immediately have allocated rights of access granted. Anything less and we should all be taking complaints to the Human Rights Commission for discrimination.
    HAving been through this despicable system I can see why some men take the law into there own hands and do react. You would have to be a complete saint not to. How much provocation can a man take before he reacts? I challenge anyone who goes through this system – to not want to react in some way against it or against the person provoking him.
    Then on top of all this, you say you may get reasonable contact – ok as in my case we finally got some time but never more than 39% so the 60 – 40 child support position was defended like her life depended on it – I appreciate that has since been remedied, but I fear the new position, will only open up more of the other tactics to deprive men from seeing there children – ie false allegations and as I am now going to touch on – BAD BEHAVIOUR by the other parent – usually the mother.
    Not one lawyer or any member of the family court wants to address BAD BEHAVIOR – Im talking about many of the things in the Justice Department handout for seperated parents – which details all the things you should NOT DO to your children. And yet there is NOT ONE consequence when mothers use all these BAD behaviours to make every contact by a father – miserable, and unpleasant – and so I challenge you on the Reasonable time comment – what is reasonable when the child arrives alienated against you, has been told what a dog you are, has been prevented from phoning you, or receiving mail in the post, has presents you buy them thrown out and not allowed in there home…..the list goes on and one, and there is NOT ONE consequence for any of this – I can be arrested and fined for dropping my child off late – and yet, the other party can psychologically destroy a child by exposing that child to bad behaviour and NOTHING is done about it, not one consequence at all. 90% of my legal bills were me trying to get some resolution on this matter – trying to get peaceful quality time with my child, and not one lawyer wanted to deal with the issue, not one lawyer wanted to impose some form of punishment for this or act on it……because if they did, there would be no conflict and no business. MY child has two psychological reports detailing this and how it has impacted on her – and apparently now I have to wait till she is older, wait till she rebells against her mother for being such a bitch, and then I have more proplems to deal with trying to fix a damaged child- and the system knows this is a consequence of its inaction……..shame on every family court lawyer or representative, because this is what they are doing – and they wonder why so many fathers are just walking away…….how much crap can a new family and or new partner take?? Thats the other issue, all this stress and conflict over visits, puts added pressure on your new relationship… its helping destroy the next good relationship and family – its all so very destructive…… wife knows and supports me big time, and she often says, if she had not been with me on this journey, she would not beleive half of what we have had to contend with……..if you do any thing or have any pull with the system – make them actually address the reasons for conflict – put in place deterrents with penalties….give children the right to see each parent without being exposed to narccisistic and soul destroying behaviour by a disgruntled parent. Isnt that what the family court is supposed to do?? Protect CHILDREN?????????

    Comment by hornet — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 3:12 pm

  17. Hornet I agree with everything you say
    Ive even experienced most of it first hand.
    My first brush with the femily caught was 12 years ago and the last was earlier this year.
    Maybe for the likes of Allan (Sorry Allan no offense) the caught may have improved but I saw nothing of this
    In fact with each of my ex’s escalating applications I proved she was lying manipulative and obstructing and what was done …. nothing
    Except I did get a remonstration from the last overweight twat behind the bench that told me he took a dim view of my calling the ex or as he put it “the mother of my child” a liar.
    I’d had enough by then of his biast attitude and had to point out that I hadnt called her a liar I simply, under cross examination, got her to admit that everything she had said in the previous 20 minutes and also sworn in an affidavit werent true. And if the ignorant mangina sitting at the bench thought this was me calling her a liar then so be it.
    I even asked if he had the authority to charge her with perjury as she had earlier sworn to tell the truth and I had her admitting she hadnt.
    Didnt phase the dishonourable bastard one inch he simply told me that this was family court and not a criminal proceding. Funny all this is missing from his summing up.
    So to answer your last question
    Isnt that what the family court is supposed to do?? Protect CHILDREN?????????
    that would be a great idea but no thats not what femily caught is supposed to do. Its to provide a trough for the like of you and me to squander our resourses for these legal parasites and hangers on.
    Do the maths on Allans weak attempt to defend the indefensible

    10 years ago it was awful it took 2 -5 years to get things done, now its wonderful things can be put through in 1-2 years on the fast track. Then look at the money the leeches have vacuumed up over the last 10 years to see what they improved at

    Yep that would explain why 12 years later and I can say that they still dont miss an opportunity to empower my ex and her bad parenting and lifestyle choices over me. All I have learned is that employing a lawyer is a waste of time taking the caught seriously is even worse.
    I have paid thousands to lawyers to get the same result as defending myself, no thats wrong I firmly believe I did a better job and got further than any lawyer I employed.
    The caught is a sad joke

    Comment by Mits — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 4:06 pm

  18. Hornet #16,
    I hear you loud and clear brother.
    Sorry to hear your all too familiar story.

    Mits #17,
    I completely resonate with your response to Hornet. It was pretty much exactly mine too.

    Wow! The femily caught can get property settlements sorted and father ‘access’ (nice prison term that) settled and going OK in 1- 2 years – Gasp!
    Thanks for that!
    That’s only 365 ~ 730 sleepless nights!
    Yep, That’s the fast track for you men!
    Isn’t it absolutely wonderful?

    Meanwhile you want us to engage the ‘courts’ to improve matters –

    If we withdraw from the Courts things will get worse.

    Good luck with that! LMAO!

    I reckon it makes more sense to take this piece of brilliant advice and avoid getting into a situation which may lead to ending up in a ‘femily caught’ in the first place.

    Comment by Skeptik — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 5:05 pm

  19. Hornet, Mits and Skeptic.
    I assist with about 100 cases a year and in my experiemce things are better. They got better because people engaged. You can withdraw and get trod all over.
    I also spent a lot of money on lawyers until I started to self represent. Most of the guys (and women) I assist self represent and spend little. What they save can be spent on their children.
    Things are better, if you get good advice you can achieve shared care or what you desire.
    The term access and custody went out of vogue in 2004. I suspect your stories are not based on current situations. Boshier has improved things and the EIP (Early Intervention Process) does work and get solutions happening in 2-6 months. That may not be instant but in legal circles that is fast.
    Too many guys sit back and let women dominate. Blokes need to be much more pro-active.
    Personally I can’t see what benefits anyone from withdrawing from the Court. Engage and use the system to your advantage!

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 6:10 pm

  20. Allan,
    You don’t get it.
    Withdraw, engage. It’s all just bullshit degrees of torture, that’s all. Degrees of corruption, cronyism and theft – of money and lives. Men’s money and Men’s lives.

    So the time for fathers to finally get some ‘access’ (that prison term again) to there kid/s through the femily caught is down to 1 – 2 years on fast track!
    Let’s go dance in the streets! Let’s party hard at our great success shall we! Because at it only took about 30 years to get it so amaaaaaaaaazingly good!
    My goodness at this rate men in another 30 years time will be able to see their kid/s for visitation after ONLY a few months of parental alienation which they pay for financially and emotionally.
    How absolutely splendid!

    Someone please pass me the popcorn.
    There’s something good on the other channel.

    Taken from Angry Harry –

    Tactic of the Moment

    Long time MRAs will surely have experienced some exasperation at the dismissive attitude that even many of their very own friends exhibit when they have tried to point out to them that feminism is not the benign ideology that they believe it to be.

    Or, perhaps, they have been sitting around the dinner table with a party of friends and/or acquaintances and the topic arises.

    At times like these, the conversation can become very heated indeed as the MRA becomes more and more wound up by the occasional sneering tones or the derision that can materialise.

    So, here is my advice.

    If it looks as if the conversation is going nowhere worthwhile, then you can easily kill it and yet leave a lasting impression on the men who have so rudely closed off their minds to your most excellent pontifications.

    Preferably within earshot of their womenfolk – if you are seeking maximum effect – you say something like this.

    “Well, if she wants you out of the house, then out you go. And if she doesn’t want you to see the children, then you don’t.”

    This usually silences the men.

    You can usually see them looking decidedly uncomfortable.

    They suddenly realise that this is not an avenue that they wish to pursue any further – especially in front of their womenfolk.

    Their sneering and their derision evaporates.

    Their shoulders slump. Their egos deflate.

    You’ve won.

    They dare not mock you any more.

    And they are not easily going to forget what you said.

    You have reminded them that they have very little power and that their women are, in fact, the bosses. Not them.

    And if you are feeling particularly malicious, you can always add, …

    “Best always do what she tells you to do, eh?”


    Ouch. That hurts.

    But if you keep a huge, friendly smile upon your face as you plunge in the knife – seemingly completely unaware of the huge blow that you have just delivered to their sense of pride – the conversation can move elsewhere in an atmosphere of good spirit and friendliness.

    And yet, nevertheless, those men will not likely sneer openly at your views ever again.

    And if they do, at a later date, fine. Just say something like this, …

    “Yes, I accept that you think that feminism is a good thing. Let’s not talk about it. Just make sure that you do what she says.”


    Ooooo. I am so, sooooooooo bad.

    Oh yeah. Almost forgot.
    Remember Thomas Ball. He died to save our children.

    Comment by Skeptik — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 6:28 pm

  21. Allan, unless you have been through the ringer, you will just never get it. A man should never have to pay a cent to see his own children – period. Any one who lies about you and provokes you should suffer the consequences, currently this VIOLENT Threatening tag we all have to carry around our necks is a direct reflection of the biased, discriminatory system we have to deal with. And thats a fact currently, there are just too many stories which have the same theme.

    That is the reality for us all as “individuals” – and that is why the system is flourishing at the moment – dealing with us all individually makes us all easy targets….from my own experiences and from what I read and hear from others, I think its time we lodged complaints with the HUMAN Rights Commission – a COLLECTIVE COMPLAINT backed by as many stories as we can muster – because apparently its an offence to discriminate on gender. So we are discriminated against right from the outset – no you cant see your kids, we are then subjected to every dirty trick in the legal arsenal to ensure we dont get access – or if we do at huge cost to us personally – emotionally and financially , even visits are not usually a pleasant experience. The entire system discriminates – I have not even started on this IRD extortion currently in place – CHILD TAX – from my own experience its OK and perfectly acceptable to have a child spy on the father and his life and report back so IRD can use it against you, mothers get a sit down meeting, a cup of coffee, and endless support system hunting down these bad men, if you have ever been subjected to this review system it is so biased and discriminatory – I have never experienced anything like it in my life – and Ive lived and seen a lot in my time. I get a phone call, you may as well talk to you dog, because they dont listen to a word you say, the review person I had, did not even read my submissions before the call, and when I questioned this, I was told speak now or not get another chance – you could tell during the interview it mattered not one bit what I had to say – I was getting lip service…..but all the evidence of a child was taken on board as fact and used against me.
    MY current position is I am not earning what I used to, so I tell them this, but thats not good enough, they have maximised my payments, When I was earning good money I always paid more than I had to, when times are tough you would expect some leniency – BUT NO – I am made to pay for a school I have not say in – she gets to pick it regardless of what I want and the costs I have to pay for, ( Most couples make these sorts of decisions but apparently as a separated parent you have these rights removed and have no choice in the matter), and because I still have assets ( apparently – whats left after property settlement ) they force you into a position by DEMANDING MAXIMUM Payments – where you have to sell assets to pay child support MAXIMUMS – extortion pure and simple, coupled with the vile, discriminatory process you have to go through, and you wonder why men run away……if it were fair, I think most people could accept it, but again it is NOT, its all about the $$$$………they will not answer questions in writing, because they know they would be caught out extorting money……sadly the worse this economy gets the more they are going to want to suck off us……and ALLAN< surprise surprise if I want to change any of this sham system I have to go to court and pay more money to prove my position…..and your suggesting people waste more time and money with a system which is so biased, and corrupt……..???????

    Comment by hornet — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 7:16 pm

  22. Hi Allen
    about a hundred cases per year in the femily caught,
    Good on you for your assistance with people in need of that assistance.
    But you must also see others who are forced into court to answer bullshit applications that the court give credence to in all those cases.
    I have never been an applicant to femily caught Ive always been called in as the repondent to the ex’s applications.
    Personally I couldnt give a bugger if the terms are changed as I feel this is some half arsed attempt to sugar coat the pill predominntly men are forced to swallow. Custody and access might have gone out of vogue for the parasites drawing a wage from this institution as they try to smooth over their deficiencies but thats just words
    Call it what you like but it seems to me to be a way the femily caught leeches use to marginalise their victims. Periodically change the terminology so you can say with distain “I suspect your stories are not based on current situations” If someone who isnt a member of the caught fraternity use a term no longer considered envogue
    Im sure that there must be some good come from this infernal institution. Even I had a victory of sorts earlier this year when I had to once again get involved with it. They did bend over backwards to try and support my ex even though what she had applied for is against New Zealand law.
    They allowed her not to file afadavits until the day before the case so I would have no time to study even though they were s’posed to be filed 3 weeks prior. In fact the Legal beagle for child tried to hand me his report in the foyer before we walked into their tainted hall. No one on the pay roll saw this as being unfair In fact I was the only one who objected to it.
    Of course you might see improvements if your there over 100 times a day.
    It reminds me of a line from a movie about a guy inprisoned for life. At first it was all terrible and he didnt know how he would survive but after 10 years in prison he had good days and bad days but it didnt seem so bad over all. Did he change or the prison.
    I believe the femily caught does more harm than good and is by that very nature not a good idea.
    I dont take it seriously anymore

    Comment by Mits — Tue 11th October 2011 @ 8:17 pm

  23. life in prison might be a better ption

    Comment by Ford — Sun 16th October 2011 @ 8:40 am

  24. @ford – No, life in prison is not a better option. It isn’t a better option for those innocent men in it and it isn’t a better option for the public who has to pay to keep them there and who are denied all those innocent men have to contribute to society.

    Comment by Darryl X — Sun 16th October 2011 @ 9:42 am

  25. darryl x..all those innocent men that get treated like criminals..might as well be in jail..and who said anything about being innocent..put up with your manipulating shitbag x for 20 yrs or jail for 10…lol

    Comment by Ford — Sun 16th October 2011 @ 9:49 am

  26. @Ford – I hear ya – LOL

    Comment by Darryl X — Sun 16th October 2011 @ 10:59 am

  27. darryl..jail is by far the cheaper option and in this financial age we live in it should be given serious consideration

    Comment by Ford — Sun 16th October 2011 @ 11:47 am

  28. women are afforded the privelege of making excuses in court and men are not..all aided by the Men Living Without Violence trust into brain wash men into pandering to the needs of womenget the men thinking its all their fault and coach them in what to say and feel for the upcoming court appearances..i wish id never let them into my head

    Comment by Ford — Sun 16th October 2011 @ 12:05 pm

  29. I have walked through the Family Court and my advice to anyone (whatever the reason) is don’t go there!

    They won’t listen to matrimonal property and custody issues in the same forum anyway which is what you need and is one of the downfalls of the Family Court.

    It will also cost you on average $6000 to get a 2 page parenting agreement (order) together taking 309 days to do and it will fall over in about 6 months.


    I called Trish Blythe (a professional mediator) and for a small fee comparatively with lawyers our issues were resolved in an afternoon. The situation had been going on for a year and half at that point – with the associated costs of lawyers at $400 an hour. I cant speak highly enough of this woman 0800 02 MEDIATE.

    I do find it really disheartening all the commentary about mens/womens issues that comes up. Everyone has their issues – but arguing points based on sex feeds into the adverserial system of the Family Court. Maybe we should concentrate on slaying the real dragon – The Family Court! rather than each other.

    Good luck Jackulable!

    Comment by Debbie — Thu 27th October 2011 @ 4:47 pm

  30. Hi Debbie,
    The figures you present should make the hairs on may men’s necks stand on end.
    I’ve no reason to doubt they are near enough accurate.
    I agree with the sentiment of slaying the real dragon – The femily rort.
    However unless I’ve gravely mistaken there’s nothing to stop any narcissistic vengeful women from simply refusing to go to any mediation that men try to set up.
    Then unfortunately they are dragged into the caught.
    The rest we know about.

    Comment by Skeptic — Thu 27th October 2011 @ 8:38 pm

  31. Debbie,
    Sorry about the typos – it’s been a long day!

    Comment by Skeptic — Thu 27th October 2011 @ 8:39 pm

  32. @Debbie – Family court is just one of many feminist inventions. It is a problem but feminism is the more fundamental dragon that needs slaying. Feminism promotes institutionalized adultery, child trafficking, child abuse and enslavement of men. It does this by manipulating the public with the spectacle of women’s chronic victimhood. Feminists lie. They need to be held accountable for their lies. The civilization you enjoy is mutually exclusive of feminism. Feminists are women and their male enablers. They are addicted to power. Like all addictions, it can never be satisfied. Feminists will always need more.

    Comment by Darryl X — Thu 27th October 2011 @ 11:41 pm

  33. @Debbie – You can’t slay family court without slaying feminism first.

    Comment by Darryl X — Fri 28th October 2011 @ 12:04 am

  34. Hi Skeptic the figures I quote are in the Family Court files. Yes you are correct you need buy in from both parties to attend mediation but if the mediator (versus the ex) is asking this of your former partner (which they are) it does not carry the same emotional weight which would disuade an ex from attending and they can then be bought to reason. People, including irrational female exes, want to be heard and if you give them a forum where they can be most I think would jump at the chance. I would be very concerned about you laying fraud charges etc as this would inflame the situation for you (although you are totally correct in doing so). If you are seeking an amicable resolve you need to strategise away from the legal system, police or otherwise, which is adverserial. Going head to head with your ex is going to cause you grief.

    Comment by Debbie — Fri 28th October 2011 @ 1:42 am

  35. It’s neat to see you writing here Debbie and hearing what you’re up to. Jim and I are running workshops from next week based on allot of cases like yours, ours and other readers here.
    It’s exciting times. 🙂

    Comment by julie — Sat 29th October 2011 @ 8:54 am

  36. Hello everyone,
    This is my first post here and I am a woman who has some involvement both through my sister and my best friend. I understand that the system is geared towards woman and support recent changes to try and even it up somewhat. I want to offer what I know, I went to court led mediation with my sister. This was a pilot program in about four years ago and worked well for them, it was apparently different to normal mediation as the agreement was then signed off by a judge so supposedly binding, like a court order but both parties decide what would be in it, and having it in place has made things easier.

    They have shared custody, week around, apart from the last year as he has left to australia for a year so his new wife can finish her training. I consider my sister to be very reasonable, she wanted her kids all the time, but accepted that he wanted custody to so never went for full custody. He bought a lawyer to mediation, but the mediator basically sidelined her and only spoke to my sister and her ex. The lawyer left after one hour. Seven and a half hours later they had an agreement, detailing all the things that were coming up, schooling, holidays, family gatherings, requests for exceptions to the agreement, parents being away, sick kids/family members. Having known the messiness that had caused bad blood before the agreement it made things so much simplier for them both. They no longer have to have discussions about things very often, it is mostly all laid out.

    So if available I would recommend court binding mediation based on my experience with it. Of course I do not understand your various situations so don;t know if it would help you especially if your partner is trying to deny access but it was positive for them.

    My second experience is with a friend who has two young children with her partner. Her partner has two primary aged children with his ex, and one grown up kid (18) from when he was a kid. They are finding in very hard to get by due to child support. He makes a good salary 100K plus a car, but you wouldn’t know looking at how they live. They live in a run down state house like 2 bdm place that they can only afford due to a family member owning it. The 18 year old lives in the garage, and the kids with the ex sleep in lounge when they stay. She is not yet back to work because of the age of their kids.
    They have older kids 3 days a fortnight plus seven weeks a year holiday which adds up to about 125 days a year but have to pay full child support. So the changes to the system will help them in a year or two. It is hard on their relationship becuase he jumps anytime the ex wants something because he is scared about losing access to his kids, so my friend feels like she is second findle to the ex. He does all the running around and the ex always changes things. I feel sorry for them both having to deal with this and sorry for anyone else that does too.

    In my half hour here I have read alot of angry stuff from dads and I understand where you are coming from. There are some very vindictive woman out there. Keep your chins up and keep loving your kids. x Sarah

    Comment by Sarah — Sat 29th October 2011 @ 9:02 am

  37. ps
    My friends situation is one that he has never pressed for any kind of agreement or mediation or family court involvement, just pay what IRD says and do what the ex wants.

    Comment by Sarah — Sat 29th October 2011 @ 9:06 am

  38. pss
    But remember going in with a battle mentality means the other person is going to fight back too.I support mediation, anyway you can get it. The process was such that both individuals had to emotional commit to the outcome and agree they were happy with the outcome. It felt like because it wasn;t handed down from on high there was more commitment. They had a chance to discuss with lawyers and friends and family before they signed so not to feel railroaded, and they could bring a support person.

    But the mediator was firm, we are here to get an agreement and are staying as long as it takes to get one. He was great and I can’t recommend a great mediator enough. Good luck

    Comment by Sarah — Sat 29th October 2011 @ 9:17 am

  39. I strongly support Debbie and Allan’s mediation approach.
    The familycaught and legal workers who sail in it, go a long way toward scuttling effective mediation, by making sure that different groups have different information about what they can expect through familycaught.
    Sure the legislation is the same for everyone, but then familycaught doesn’t really follow legislation, however you try to look at it. The legislation is left looking like misleading marketing windowdressing.
    Many judgements in familycaught are not supplied to the legal publishers. When judges know that their judgement is outside of legislation, they forget to send a copy to legal publishers. Thus the only group that really know what happens in familycaught, are the legal workers with a lot of experience in familycaught. Many other lawyers are just as surprised in familycaught, as many mothers and fathers. Greed is greed and fraud is fraud. The solution lies in jail sentences.
    Many commenters above illustrate the frustration when familycaught doesn’t meet reasonable expectations.
    Good quality mediation can only occur when both parties are accurately informed about what would happen in familycaught, if they were to proceed to familycaught.
    If we want mediation to work well, we need to gather information about familycaught outcomes and judgements, all judgements and make this readily available to all parties to mediation. (This is exactly what legal publishers try to do now, at an excessive price, but fail to deliver reliable quality information!)
    We (as a group of concerned parents) also need to assist appeals, when judgements go through that are outside of legislation, so that the legislation becomes truthful and of value.
    Then, Debbie’s proposal will well serve parents.
    Contrast this with the way that lawyers promised the familycaught would serve parents and protect children’s interests, over 30 years ago (and have been careful to not deliver cost effective quality service)!!!!!
    Bravo Debbie, MurrayBacon – axe murderer.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 30th October 2011 @ 9:17 am

  40. pedro sort it out – you are very angry and if this is all try why not! but you are never going to get anywhere charging her with fraud and pulling out the guns. i am sure she will be reasonable at some stage – can you honestly say you are so innocent here? calm down split the assets and work it out for the kids. the kids are the most important thing here not you or her.

    Comment by gilda — Sun 20th November 2011 @ 8:33 pm

  41. @gilda – Your post reflects profound ignorance and acknowledgement of any reality. She’s guilty of fraud and needs to be held accountable. Unless she is held accountable, she will continue to defraud her children, their father and others. The probability that she will be reasonable at “some stage” is infinitesimally small and that she is not reasonable now is considerable evidence of that. Yes, under such a totalitarian post feminist dystopian fascist police state regime, Pedro is almost certainly innocent of any wrong-doing. She already isn’t “working it out for the kids”. It takes two to cooperate and achieve this goal. If she is playing the hostile parent veto card, then Pedro can’t do anything to help the kids. Her cooperation is required. He can’t do it all. Pedro has the right to look after his best interests. Especially against such an irrational and relentless and oppressive regime. He can’t stop the mother from holding the kids hostage for ransom. The kids are a secondary concern to the well-being of Pedro himself. Expecting otherwise is just using the kids as hostages and exploting them and abusing them. The mother needs to be stopped from pursuing her malicious goals.

    Comment by Darryl X — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 3:33 am

  42. men tend to end up surrounded by academic females colluding with each other because they think they know better..all while the guy is being screwed around and f#@ked over by a vindictive x whos only solution to the situation is to get nasty..

    Comment by Ford — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 8:11 am

  43. And men are never nasty?Only women?

    Comment by Get a grip — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 9:28 am

  44. @gag – Statistically that is correct. Women are almost always the instigators of any conflict. Women initiate and are responsible for most domestic violence and child abuse. Depending upon any one of the myriad studies, women lie egregiously about rape at least 50% of the time. And that is using only the criteria of the woman recanting her accusation. It does not include all the instances in which other criteria exonerate a man or show that no rape occurred. Women are responsible for all paternity fraud. Women are responsible for initiating approximately 80% of divorces. The remaining 20% are divided almost evenly between men and mutual initiation, which most of the time is also initiated by the woman but the man just goes along with it because he has no choice. Women are responsible for almost all parental alienation, which is child abuse. Women are responsible for a majority of child murders, and kill significantly more boys than girls, making their murders a hate crime, although they are never prosecuted that way. On average, women get paid more, are much less productive, take less risks, are injured less frequently at work. Women have better access to health care, more resources are directed at women’s health, and they live substantially longer than men. Throughout the world, many more men live in poverty than women and children. The reason reports are to the contrary is because governments lie and exclude men living on the street or in prison or only use gross incomes instead of incomes after taxes and child support, medical costs and many other expenditures that are almost exclusively male for supporting a community. Women have lighter sentences for the same crimes as committed by men. Approximately 80% of the entire adult female population throughout the developed world has defrauded a man or made false allegations against one. All this under a brutally oppressive totalitarian post feminist dystopian fascist police state regime in which the women are almost never held accountable for their egregious crimes. So, yes, men are almost never nasty and women almost always are. The only reason women believe otherwise is because they possess no analytical skills and are too lazy to appreciate the obvious reality that is contrary to their delusions. I’d say that sums it up pretty good.

    Comment by Darryl X — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 10:52 am

  45. So Gilda, GAG, I have a question if I may
    are what you suggesting here is that in a marriage/relationship break up, any wrong doing by the female partner should be swept under the carpet and ignored as to raise such issues will cause the said female to then induce more misery into the already innocentchildrens lives?

    Is that what youre advocating?
    Let her lie, cheat, steal, accuse you of anythging she can dream up, be backed by the femily caught and all its associated hangers on.
    While you are out of the family home due to false accusations on her part you should put this behind you and come to the mediation table as equals. Is that it?
    As you seem to agree that if you raise any wrong doing on her part its pretty well known she will have her vengeance by inflicting it on the poor children. So protect your children further from her evil intentions it is best to stay quiet of her misdeeds.

    And you seem OK with this?

    Comment by Mits — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 11:03 am

  46. #43..i still cant fathom why some even go down that path and i can almost guarantee when/if it goes down that road its because thats where the female is taking it..when it comes to nasty vindictive mindgames women take 1st prize and no argument from me on that one

    #44 i saved that one

    Comment by Ford — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 1:21 pm

  47. p.s gag..if women cant stand the heat then dont light a fire

    Comment by Ford — Mon 21st November 2011 @ 1:25 pm

  48. no that is not what i am saying. there is 2 sides 2 every story. if in fact his statement is the truth – she has done wrong. but in my experience not every female is bad – what are the acutal circumstances?? both sides of the story?? its ok us feeding this feed with charge her, she is this and that – but is thie the full truth and nothing but the truth? or is this a lonely person venting?

    Comment by gilda — Tue 22nd November 2011 @ 9:22 pm

  49. ………………or is this a lonely person venting?


    best belly laugh I’ve had in a while.

    Comment by Skeptic — Tue 22nd November 2011 @ 11:30 pm

  50. gilda says: if in fact his statement is the truth – she has done wrong. but in my experience not every female is bad

    Dr Allan Pease wrote an interesting book; “Why Men Don’t Listen & Women Can’t Read Maps“. In that book he says; “Whenever you use the word “but“, you don’t really believe what you’ve said just prior to using that word.
    she has done wrong, but” = “I don’t believe she has done wrong

    Comment by Wayne — Wed 23rd November 2011 @ 5:42 am

  51. Hi Gilda I agree, not every female is bad
    But you seem to have side stepped the question

    Let me repeat it here for you

    are what you suggesting here is that in a marriage/relationship break up, any wrong doing by the female partner should be swept under the carpet and ignored as to raise such issues will cause the said female to then induce more misery into the already innocent childrens lives?

    Remember when you wrote
    i am sure she will be reasonable at some stage

    would you be so accepting of this situation if the poster had written ” im stealing money off her and if she does anything about it, I’ll be hard on the kids, that should keep her quiet”

    Think about it for a while, what is it youre saying?


    Comment by Mits — Wed 23rd November 2011 @ 6:11 am

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