Why Would a Woman Assault Her Husband?
Men Don’t Tell 1993 TV Film
Man repeatedly assaulted by his wife TV film – based on true story
The Other Face Of Domestic Violence
On March 14, 1993, CBS aired “Men Don’t Tell,” a TV movie about domestic violence starring Peter Strauss and Judith Light. The twist: Strauss’s character, construction executive Ed MacAffrey, was abused by his wife Laura, played by Light.
The movie is now available to watch on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_gLDF2dGLY.
Based on a true story, it dramatizes the story of a loving husband, who is terrorized by the violent behavior of his wife. He had long endured the physical and emotional abuse heaped upon him by his neurotic wife.He tolerates this not only because he loves her and is concerned over the welfare of his daughter, but also because men are traditionally regarded as weaklings if they allow themselves to be battered by their wives.After one of Laura’s destructive tantrums brings the attention of the police, Ed is suspected of being the aggressor! Finally, Laura goes too far and Ed tries to defend himself–whereupon Laura crashes through the front window of her home and is rendered comatose.
Ed is arrested for Domestic Violence and Attempted Murder.As he is interrogated, he tells his story of years of abuse, and how he even once sought help by calling a domestic violence hotline, only to get scorned and hung up on. This interrogation takes all night, by highly skeptical police.While this is going on, his children have been taken to their paternal grandfather, himself a retired police officer, to spend the night.
In the morning, young daughter, who chose to remain silent through the years of abuse due to the humiliation and shame, asked the grandfather is her mother was in trouble.This surprised the grandfather, who then asked her why she thought her mother, whom he thought was the victim of his abusive son, would be in trouble? To this she said, “Because mommy hits daddy”.”
The most sobering point about ‘Men Don’t Tell’ is that we go into the story conditioned to make jokes about wives hurling rolling pins at their husbands and then starkly witness how unfunny and terrifying it really is,” the Los Angeles Times’ Ray Loynd wrote.He continued: “Light’s vicious, insecure wife is a harrowing portrait, although ultimately, to the actress’s credit, touched with sympathy. Her bleak image in the movie’s last scene is shattering under the fine direction of Harry Winer.
And Strauss’ pummeled husband – whose wife flails him with sudden, sharp fists that are so realistic they make you flinch – is a study of a warmly masculine man who is no wimp, AND NO WIFE HITTER, either.”USA Today’s Matt Roush called the film “violent, unsettling and sympathetically acted,” while the New York Times’ John J. O’Connor praised the leads for their “searing” performances.The Washington Post’s Tom Shales liked “Men Don’t Tell,” too, praising Light as “superb at bringing out the pathos as well as the hostility in this character.”Although the ending of the story could be considered positive and upbeat, it is painfully clear that there are many issues that will never be resolved.
First telecast by CBS on May 14, 19 93, according to a New York Times Story, “Men Don’t Tell” was never rebroadcast on over-the-air television, reportedly because it incurred the wrath of several women’s groups.”Men Don’t Tell” was seen in 18.3 million homes, ranking third among the week’s prime time broadcast, behind ABC’s “Home Improvement” and CBS’s “60 Minutes.”People may think Ed MacAffrey’s experience was an isolated case, but according to the “Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women”, 39% of the victims are men. That’s nearly four of ten cases, yet nearly 100% of the shelters where domestic violence victims can go with their children take only women. Men can experience this type of abuse for years, not wishing to leave his children behind, in the hands of the abuser, and to become the next target.
This film seems to echo the NZ Police 10-7 programme, where the man was removed from the house (after being assaulted by his wife) by NZ Police, North Shore, Auckland. I’m just doing my job….!!!!
Men Don’t Tell gives the background, not just the police intervention in Police 10-7.
Police response could be based on whodunnit and the best protection for the children, rather than having a dumb&destructive policy based on gender, instead of facts and common sense. The legislation doesn’t require the police to remove based on gender, it is just the police’s ignorant screwball internal policy.
Policies which fail to respond appropriately to women’s violence are a major element driving USA spousal murders, where almost 50% of spousal murderers are women. NZ can follow in these footsteps, if we fail to respond appropriately to women’s violence, at any level.
Election year is upon us! Best regards, MurrayBacon.
i can relate to this as im still living it now. I too tried to get my x help and was refused to be listen to for years.
The only difference was, my x put her foot through the wall claiming to Police that I pushed her down the stairs and her head into the wall.
The first set of Police included a female officer who felt my x was the aggressor and had my x tested. She passed the test and was released. Case closed.
Latter that day CYFS got involved (at my request – yes I know how stupid of me now) and they called the Police themselves. The police came the second time, all males, and they gave me a PSO (for two days) as my x refused to press charges.
Within about a month, my x had me arrested for Male Assault Female (as it happened over two days I was charged twice).
Most common types of violence against men and their children:
1) Plundering his life savings or making him bonded laborer for her.
2) Killing his baby, before or after birth
3) Bastardizing his child
4) Damaging his relations with his family and friends
6) Daily emotional terrorism
7) Putting him in jail
8) Physical violence
Comments and corrections welcome. IZ2011
Thank you for the link to the movie.
I had no idea of it’s existence which says a hell of a lot about how the strong silent hand of PC feminist censorship intervenes.
I look forward to seeing it soon.
Good to see you back.
I often enjoy your comments – full of brevity and powerful thought provoking statements. Keep on going like that. It’s a model for not pussyfooting around, but getting straight to the point many raised under PC culture could learn from.
Yesterday I called the police, after my wife opened the door of my study and started throwing things of mine at me breaking them. They arrived and short story:I was told we were both going to receive a PSO protecting each other. I was given mine, When I asked about the PSO I was told would be written against my wife.I got mocking comments, and she tries to pretend by giving me the carbon copy of the one against me, is the one against her. When I look at it and say, but it’s the same See tells me “I can see why ‘Wifes-Name’ is angry at you.
When I ask the same policewoman what am I supposed to do if someone opens my study door and starts throwing things at me breaking my property. “Com’on be a MAN, just do what she wants you to do” and “Grow up”.
When I ask the policeman why is it that I get assaulted, call the police, and get a PSO against me, have to leave and our child gets left in the care of someone who has just been violent. i get told ‘she’s the mother’ ‘it’s her house’.
I Recorded the whole interaction with the police from before they arrived to after I left as a voice memo on my iphone and took photo of the things see threw at me and broke. And I have a PSO against me for 3 days stopping me living in our family home or seeing my daughter.
My concerns are:
I do not want this sort of thing in a police file under my name, especially as is probable we will have to go through divorce and custody processes. E.g. Her lawyer provides evidence of the PSO against me, the interpretation will be I must of done something violent at home to receive that against me and I’m a threat to my wife and child.
From what I have heard this is probably typical of the way most DV police call outs go. And there is rarely any evidence or interest in finding evidence about the way the law is being mis-enforced against men who are assaulted at home. This may be a rare situation where there is some evidence, useful in making police enforcement our laws in NZ more fair.
I’m willing for the audio file to be made available/public if our names ares are bleeped out.
Does anyone have any experience or advise on what i should be doing next?
David, welcome to the club. My best advise is get involved in a mens group. I dont know where you are but before you do anything more I suggest talking to them first.
if CYFS get involved, they will not support you and play good cop bad cop (ie two come out and each plays a different role). CYFS always believe the female.
I too also called the cops to have my x arrested about two years ago for throwing things at me as well as breaking them. The cops back then didnt have PSO’s and I was still asked to leave even after my x admitted violence to them. The police still refused to arrest her and now im finding they didnt write a report about it either.
There is plenty of support for your wife and she will get it. but you my friend will get nothing. thats the hard fact!
because your male, you are violent!
* verbal abuse and put downs
* accuse you of things you dont do
* lieing & cheating (making up stories)
* leaving and taking the child when your out
the list goes on and on
Cudos to you for reaching out for help.
Smart move to have recorded the police corruption too.
I’m confident your giving your e-mail address will lead to getting support as your situation is far from uncommon in NZ.
I see that it’s been recommended to you to seek support from a Men’s group. I think that’s an excellent idea. My only caveat is take care that it’s not in any way a pro-feminist group as the ‘support’ you’ll get is likely to be steered through feminist channels which won’t be helpful but only increase your frustration, pain and suffering.
Some years ago I went to the police to lay a complaint after having been sexually assaulted by a women who grabbed my crotch on a restaurant dance floor. The police response was horrendous “You should be so lucky mate!” and they refused to take me seriously which compounded the humiliation and distress.
So I complained to the police complaints authority.
In turn the police complaints authority sent a burly looking plain clothed officer to my place of work to discuss my complaint.
The officer was insistent upon dealing the matter in house and assured me the offending officers would be spoken to by their duty sergeant.
I agreed to that as I could see from his facial expression and body language he had absolutely NO interest indeed he was resistant to supporting a formal complaint.
These days though I would insist on a formal complaint being laid against the officers, specially if I had the kind of recorded evidence you say you have.
I’d also record ALL discussions with the police complaints authority too. And if the police complaint authority refused to take me seriously I’d go public and political about it.
I did achieve a sort of justice after the sexual assault.
By chance I met the woman alone and in private and told her how hurt and disgusted I was. I also told her that her apology wasn’t enough and she should seek professional help so that she didn’t harm other men, and to consider herself lucky because had she been a man she would probably be imprisoned by now.
I also ring fenced her socially by warning a lot of people in our community about her.
It certainly has dented my faith in the NZ police’s ability to deliver male inclusive justice though.
It was another of countless male bashing incidences I experienced in NZ which after a period of reflecting upon led to the decision to move away from NZ for safety reasons.
If I was in your situation the first thing I would do would be to ring Parliament and speak to the Secretary to the Minister of Police and make a complaint. Shit rolls downhill much better than trying to push it uphill. And it’s an election year.
That is exactly what I did quite recently when my adult daughter witnessed her female cousin beating the crap out of her boyfriend who refused to defend himself. She had previously knocked out his two front teeth and so this was not an isolated violent incident.
My daughter went to the Porirua Police Station to make a complaint but the Officer there refused to accept her complaint. The Police told my daughter that the victim would need to make the complaint.
When I learned of this I immediately rang Parliament and complained, but I reversed the genders of the victim & perpetrator as I described Porirua Police’s refusal to do their legal duty. After the Secretary sounded shocked I came clean about the male being the victim and the female being the perpetrator.
Long story short: Porirua Police promptly rang me and organised a statement from my daughter and they then proceeded to do the job they’re paid to do.
It may well be worth you taking 5 minutes to make that phone call.
I wish that had made the New Zealand Herald.
Good on you David for recording the encounter. Being an audio recording that could have been doctored it may not be accepted as evidence in any legal proceedings. However, I would recommend:
(i) Ensure that copies of the recording are held by a good number of other people, if possible including a lawyer. When the police find out you have this recording they may well try legal or illegal efforts to seize all known copies.
(ii) Check the legality of having made the recording. Although my understanding is that it’s quite legal to make such recordings the law here is complicated and I wouldn’t be surprised if the cops try to prosecute you for it. It’s best if you are aware of your legal position and confident about it in moving forward.
(iii) I would like to see you put this out to media. You will undoubtedly be fobbed off and frustrated in getting the police, Courts, authorities or government to face up to the true intent and feminist operation of our protection order laws, but public awareness and pressure through media could achieve a lot.
PS You tube would be a good start
It is perfectly legal to record a conversation so long as one party knows about it. It is not legal to record a conversation between 2 other people without them knowing about it.
A recent case I have assisted with involved an allegation of rape. Fortunatley we obtained a recording of the mother wanting to trade contact with the child for some dope.
A transcript of that conversation was included in an affidavit.
Copied below is the concluding paragraph I wrote for the affidavit in response to the mothers application for a protection order.
In light of xxxxxxxxx willingness to trade contact with xxxxxx for some marijuana, her refusal to negotiate any reasonable contact, her statement that I will not see xxxxx again, her inability to make sure that xxxxx is attending school, her lack of care for xxxxxx’s well being by not wanting to take his inhaler when collecting a sim card for her phone, her filing of a protection order application containing lies in order to thwart any contact between xxxxx and myself etc etc etc leads me to the position of asking for full custody of xxxxx whereby I will ensure that he has proper contact with his mother.
When we went to court ( me as a mckenzie friend)….The judge was very friendly…he said “hello guys, please come in and take a seat”
The result was that the father got supervised contact every weekend with his child.
The judge was somewhat apolagetic and said that the law did not allow him to give unsupervised contact until the DV case has been heard.
The next hearing is for interim parenting orders ??????? Seems like there is going to be no hearing for the rape / domestic violence allegations.
At this point there is an agreement between the parents for free and unfettered contact.
Hopefully the court will accept this agreement at the next hearing.
Thanks for that clarification Andrew
Program number 3 of the new Radio show – A voice for men radio.
This week :
Maybe a bit of THIS would help:
I feel your pain Andrew.
Im at 8 of my 11 months for my fabricated DV case to goto court. In the mean time Im on supervised access to see my daughter. And yet im still allowed to babysit other kids (unsupervised).
Why would a woman assault her husband? – The simple and easily documented reason is that she has no conscience and can assault her husband without challenge by the community in which she lives.
It is weird that feminism purports to vehemently oppose any alleged patriarchal oppression, religion being a favourite of the finger-pointers. And yet feminists demand that women are treated as the weaker vessel by not being held to the same behavioural standards as men, and that men should turn the other cheek when assaulted by one of their ilk. Quite weird indeed.
First of all I would like to say what a great site this is, bringing up some very important and often invisible issues in society. I would note however that it is man against women abuse, and its documented prevalence in domestic violence statistics, which is the main source of harm for everybody in society as can be seen by the harrowing experiences detailed here, in which male experiences have been ignored. I would like to point out (as a feminist myself) that a sound meaning of “feminism” is equality of the sexes, rather than advocating a lesser standard of behaviour for women, as that would (as rightly pointed out) perpetuate myths of female inferiority and the validity of “gender roles.” I would encourage those on this site to find and engage with feminists in society who really are looking to end violence in the home in whatever form it takes, by quashing the desire to dominate others, and by supporting those men who the patriarchy has deemed “weak” for suffering abuse from their partners.
So bizarre is your post it’s difficult to beleive that I’m not repsonding to someone’s satirical prank or not.
Hence I’m not sure if you are for real, but indulging you for a moment here goes…..
you say –
Actually there’s a mountain of evidence statistical and anecdotally all over the internet that debunks the ‘men are the main perpetrators’ myth you are peddling. Go ahead and ask for that evidence and surely it will come pouring in. Are you open minded and brave enough to ask though?
We obviously exist in parallel universes.
The one myself and growing numbers of Men’s Rights Activists have inhabited for several decades now is one in which feminist oppression in all aspects of boys and men’s lives has not only been evident but continues daily in our lives.
To come here and try to invalidate our many decades of collective experience of feminism is deeply offensive.
I think you waste your time trying to define feminism as somehow benign to males. What’s even sadder, indeed insulting and injurious is that you waste our time trying to sanitize feminism whilst offering absolutely not a single word of sympathy, encouragement or helpful advice to 2 men obviously deeply distressed by abusive actions directly resultant from feminism.
I think as long as you hold onto the incredulous idea that we live in a patriarchy you’ll be incapable of displaying such compassion however and so can understand your compassion blindness when it comes to males.
I gave up long ago thinking that anyone who held such barmy feminist ideas about men as you state in this last statement could be engaged with constructively.
Such oppressive notions as you use AGAINST males are in stark contrast to advocating Men’s Rights so remarkably quashed in the current misandric feminist zeitgiest.
I would agree with you Skeptik. what about women’s attacks on baby’s/children. Thats DV isnt it? what about girls attacking girls the school girl drama is a good example of that. Bullying is DV.
main source of harm??
Why is it the female can say and bring up anything and yet the male is controlled. Does that sound like a fair system to you?
The woman does it because she will not be held accountable. Whats the first thing everyone thinks when they here the word “DV”?
Feminists (male or female) are psychopaths who represent a political hate group. Feminism is a campaign to impose absolute power and control over anyone (male or female) with a conscience. Feminism is tyranny. An important doctrine of feminism is that lying and manipulating and stealing compulsively are substitutes for analysis and empathy and planning and hard work. Feminists will never be “equal” to anyone else – they will always be inferior because all they know how to do is con people. It’s an addiction and they can’t stop themselves.
The most reliable sources for reliable information about DV are scientific publications. Hundreds show conclusively that women are responsible for most domestic violence and child abuse. Actually, I’m not aware of any legitimate objective scientific studies that show otherwise – and, of course, I’m ignoring anything funded by a woman’s group of some kind or is “advocacy” research. The kinds of studies I am referring to are from the US Center for Disease Control, the US Dept of Health and Human Services, and many many others – as recent as this past decade. They are very revealing and show what most of us already know by common sense and what we experience daily.
doesnt mean Dude Victorious
60 Minutes, 7.30pm, March 30th 2011 – School Daze
This is tonight all. 😉
Excellent point. How do feminists expect men to care for women’s situations yet they can’t show (minimum)sympathy for men in the same situation?
Haha, looks like another feminist in a ivory tower unable to know how the people are suffering. Do you think they ever even consider what the consequences of their actions are on the rest of society – women included.
I wish there was a ‘Like’ button on this site like facebook has. 🙂
1. Women initiate physical domestic violence approximately as often (actually slightly more often) than men do, but men’s violence is much more injurious on average (i.e. some men, but fewer than women, are seriously injured too). Men are killed by their female intimate partners about 25% as often as are women by their male intimate partners.
2. Men are much more often the victims of violence in society generally.
3. Violence in society generally is a much bigger source of “harm for everybody in society” than domestic violence is.
4. What patriarchy?
Thanks to those who responded to my post. I’m not really sure where to start here, (“feminists are psychopaths” leaving me particularly bewildered?!), but would only like to re-iterate that feminism is about equality, and smashing gender roles (amongst many other things). I would argue that the truly awful treatment men have suffered at the hands of the gvt, police, courts etc, and which I believe to be extremely valid experiences, is symptomatic of bad management, influenced by people with the wrong ideas, but cannot be blamed on the broad movement of “feminism”.
You say –
And there it is in black and white for all to see.
You’ve simply come to MENZ to argue as a flag bearer for feminism.
Hell, you even take on the mantle of speaking for the broad movement of feminism – all those millions of women who got suckered into believing in the mythical patriarchy, and other stupid ideas like male privilege, the wage gap, the glass ceiling etc.
All those millions upon millions of instances of barely disguised or completely open outrageously misplaced rage we men have had to endure that was clearly inspired, incited and enacted upon us by feminists and their supporters is suddenly to be forgotten and glossed over as bad management.
I think you need to take on board that the feminist movement you see as blameless is in fact a misandric hate movement;
Whatever it was to start with it’s become a deluded supremacist cult based on the idea of focusing on women’s powerlessness and men’s power and NOT also on women’s power and men’s powerlessness.
AND you’ve still not offered a jot of human relating and compassion to the two men on this thread suffering terribly as a result of being put upon by your sacred feminism.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that despite being utterly deluded and completely 1980s academic feminist in your outlook, I’ll assume for a moment that you are a decent person at heart.
Now go read Warren Farrel’s – ‘The myth of male power’.
It’s available at bookstores and libraries that aren’t screened by feminists.
Go read extensively at these websites – Angry Harry.com or The Spearhead.com.
A warning, for someone so obviously sheltered from real lived experiences amongst men the reading will be tough and you’ll probably want to baulk at accepting a lot of what you read.
Go to those places nonetheless.
Take a good spell of time there, read and listen to the experiences of millions of men worldwide instead of coming here and trying to argumentatively matronize us with futile attempts to define men’s experience as an unelected and uninvited spokeswoman for the ‘broad movement of feminism’.
And do us a favor and really I think ultimately do the polite thing, the correct pro-social humane thing.
Don’t come back until you’ve read and listened to enough to return with appropriate humility and compassion. I say that because right now you’re trampling over the pain of many many people (mostly but not exclusively males) with sized 12 hobnailed boots on and the scary thing is you’re not even close to being aware of it.
Margaret – Below is a list of qualities associated with malignant narcissism/psychopathy (the technical difference between the two is irrelevant except under clinical circumstances). These qualities also define feminism and many other political hate movements (remember Nazis and Stalinists). Feminism defines our culture today. Our culture is narcissistic and unsustainable (just look at how our economy works or doesn’t and how feminists benefit dishonestly from its disintegration – they aren’t just responsible for its disintegration but they have actively encouraged it because they profit despite the short-term consequences for everyone else or even the long-term consequences for themselves). Feminists are psychopaths – get over yourself. Your failure to acknowledge, let alone analyze, the overwhelming volume of financial, economic and criminal data and facts and recognize the political role of feminism in causing these atrocities and your failure, as a feminist, to take responsibility for them is chilling and makes my palms itch and gums bleed. These qualities listed below describe most women and some men with whom I have been acquainted during my life. Most of them, if they acknowledge these qualities in themselves at all, are actually proud of them. They actually think that manipulating people is hard work and they should be rewarded for it (I’ve actually been told this many times). They believe that intelligence and analytical skills and problem solving abilities are somehow characteristic of people lower than them (I’ve actually been told this many times too – they believe people who demonstrate these qualities instead of getting a colored man or a contractor to these things are sub-human). Feminism is a very frightening political campaign that spells the complete and absolute destruction of civilization. With attitudes of women and their male enablers, what do expect is going to happen.
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Lack of analytical skills
Lack of remorse or guilt or shame
Lack of empathy
Failure to accept personal responsibility
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom/short-sighted
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Early behavior problems
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Like! 🙂 (allot)
Yet, spearhead? Nah, I wouldn’t send women there. Maybe it’s popular but…
Nasty. Margaret is entitled to respectful debate and discussion on here, as is anyone else.
So are you Parker. 😉
I don’t know why there is a need for debate though.
Good morning Skeptik!
I found you post to be both surprising and interesting, especially the comments about Patriarchy and male privilege being a myth.
Firstly, I used to be a man. I was assigned the gender ‘male’ on my birth certificate. In my late 20’s I transition to female.
This gives me the unique perspective of having lived as both a man and as a woman – a perspective which you do not have (though should you also transition, you would share my experiences).
As such, I am uniquely qualified to compare the experiences of men and women and comment on whether or not male privilege and Patriarchy exist.
I’ll not beat around the bush and state up front: they do exist.
Having being part of the institutionalised power of being male and the benefits that come with being male, I felt their loss quite sorely when I became a woman. I’ll admit, it was a bit of a shock to the system. I knew that men had some vague benefits and privileges over women, but I didn’t realise the extent and breadth of those privileges until they were taken away from me.
As a male, encased in your invisible privilege, you are unaware that it exist, because it has never been taken away from you. I assure you that should you actually spend some time living as a woman, you would notice the loss.
I have little time or sympathy for men who claim that they are hard-done-by and that feminism has somehow destroyed their lives. This is because I have been a man and I know that they are talking smack. When I read MRA sites or books, I laugh at the preposterous notions expressed and the self-indulgent pity-parties that the authors engage in. Being a man is incredibly easy. It is a cake-walk. It is a world of privilege. It’s an all-you-can-eat picnic.
You want for so very little that the things which you lack become hyper-focussed; and your greedy, aggressive natures compel you to grab for ALL of the cake, rather than just the three-quarter slice you have already cut for yourself.
So please, don’t go around crying “Woe, being a manz is soooo HARD!” because I’ve been in your camp I know just how opulent it really is.
You are confusing the privileages of being a male who enables feminists and their pathology and a real man who is not willing to manipulate women and who has dignity and integrity and character and respect. Real men don’t enjoy the privileages you describe. Just like real women don’t enjoy the privileages of feminism. The only reason any men and women enjoy any privileages of feminism is because they are willing to do things honest and hard-working people are not willing to do. Not all men will take advantage of such privileages. That you enjoyed such privileages as a man only means that you were a dishonest man. As a woman now, you enjoy the privileages of a woman (at least for now until the feminists decide to enslave you too).
Good Morning Darryl!
My first thought upon reading your post was “What a load of twaddle.”
Considering the fact that I didn’t actually describe any of the privileges that I enjoyed as a male, your post can only be viewed as a very hastily constructed straw-man.
As I stated to Skeptik; until you have had your institutionalised and invisible male privilege taken away, you have no basis for comparison. I strongly recommend that you live as a woman for several years, then return to us with the data you have gathered on the differences you experienced while living as the other gender.
In addiction, most (if not all) of the privileges that males have are assigned and enjoyed by default. You cannot chose whether or not you enjoy them, because they are in effect whether you decide you want them or not. The only way you can get rid of them is by not being perceived as male.
So unless you operate in your daily life as a genderqueer or androgyne person, you take advantage of male privilege unconsciously.
Lastly, there are very, very few ‘privileges’ enjoyed by women.
Again, on that score, men have taken most of the cake and other men like you seek to take the remaining slice that was allocated to women.
Hi Cate J,
I wish your kind would accept women for I hate having to go into women’s toilets in bars and treated badly because you guys/girls have issues. and I hate the fact you push your issues onto others.
Did you ever consider you might be stepping over other people’s rights or do you just think you matter more than someone else whether it be male or female or in between?
Wow! Men’s Rights is definitely having an impact.
Look at what fire and ire it’s drawing out.
Firstly for those who may be unclear about my response to feminist Margaret.
I’m not saying to her go away forever, only go get some background so you can relate to MRA and men in general and for goodness sake stop with the trying to define our experience for us! (something feminists have been trying to do for decades now).
Once Margaret has done that we can relate.
Otherwise it’s like trying to have a conversation as a black man with someone who’s unconsciously a white supremacist.
You don’t explain what ‘used to be a man’ means biologically or in terms of time you deem to have spent in that biological/sociological/spiritual condition.
You don’t explain what culture you claim to have been in, when, where and how you were socially placed (role, status, relationships to others).
You don’t explain any of the so called ‘male privileges’ you deem to have benefited from.
Indeed you give such scant detail it’s difficult to believe you aren’t in reality some fictitious caricature, and just another feminist come trolling along to stir up trouble.
We get them quite regularly when feminist hot buttons get pushed!
What is clear however is in your terribly clumsy attempt to shut down any MRA point of view using typical shame laden feminist ideas you give yourself away completely as NOT having lived as a man in modern feminist times.
The notion that MRA want to grab everything for ourselves is absurd, insulting and utterly stupid.
My goodness what a sad sad paranoid existence you must have carrying such bizarre ideas!
Still I’m glad you posted as it’s another solid sign that we MRA are reaching people and challenging them to think about men’s experience and issues.
Very happy to oblige; here’s a fantastic list compiled by the folks at ‘Alas, A Blog’:
Male Privilege Checklist
Sorry for giving you a definite list rather than just a few; it’s easier this way 🙂
In my view The Spearhead.com is at the cutting edge of the Men’s Rights Movement – forgive the pun!
As reflective of a new generation of Men’s Rights Activists it’s rough, raw, in your face and really challenging in places.
In other places superbly nuanced social analysis and heart rending personal anecdote.
I don’t agree with everything written there but all in all I think it’s a great site where you can see new ideas and strategy being developed by a hugely passionate bunch of people.
It will definitely throw a spanner in Margaret’s mind!
Skeptic, the spearhead doesn’t have new ideas – it’s just misogyny online plus it doesn’t offer anything to counteract feminism.
Since most feminist believe sick people are online whether it be radical feminists or radical masculinists makes little difference.
If you want to educate the educated, isn;t there some educated sites to promote?
Hi again Skeptik (sorry, I can’t reply directly to your post, there’s no ‘reply’ link under it),
I’m disappointed by your response.
Because my lived experiences as both male and female contradict your MRA ideologies, I am therefore a fabrication? A ‘fictitious caricature’?
Sorry, I don’t engage with people who use blatant ad hominem attacks such as that. I am willing to have a reasoned debate, but I draw the line there.
If you would be so gracious as to apologise, I’ll re-evaluate my stance.
Otherwise, I will not engage you further.
you say –
Doesn’t offer anything to counteract feminism?
Yeah right. Tui moment.
Another shit test from Julie.
Devoid of any analysis and detail.
Simply another empty knee jerk denial reaction.
and right on cue …….drumroll ………..today’s article from The Spearhead.
Oh the delicious irony!
I am constantly amazed at how easily people will exploit the anonymity of the internet to blindly insult. Regardless, having admittedly glanced very superficially at the issues covered by Warren Farrell only, it seems to me that the current feminist movement, which many in NZ are ill-informed about, would support many of his views. Although not a core part of feminist ideology, a number of feminists disagree with war, and the loss of lives, both female and male, and completely reject any notion of men having to be protectors while women remain weak. This is the only point I am trying to make – many feminists would actually support your cause, if you would only let us.
Hiya Cate J
please do tell me what the “institutionalised and invisable male priveledge” actually are.
Im not after a definitive list just a few examples would suffice
Also if there are ” very, very few priveledges enjoyed by women” could you enlighten me as to what they are specifically?
BTW sorry this replied in the wrong place – was supposed to be in response to Skeptik’s post at 10.51pm Wed night.
Good grief Cate J!
I’ve just taken a cursory glance at your holy list of ‘male privilege’.
What a load of bunkum!
Just one list item for example the idea that men are automatically entitled to jobs where women also apply for the same job.
Incredulous, pompous, inane crap.
That TOTALLY denies the FACTS that men are more likely to put more time into a job, commute further, move job locations and relocate, take on more hazardous projects, negotiate harder for raises.
Jesus! Am I glad I don’t live in your head.
It must be nightmarishly paranoid to believe such things as are contained in your precious list!
Go read Warren Farrel’s extensive research which says women can do what men are doing and get similar results jobs-wise.
Just Google it. read him and save yourself a lifetime of bitterness.
Whoever, whatever you are.
I can live well with your disappointment.
Your denial of many men’s lived experience under feminism flies in the face of compassion.
Your claims at trans existence being challenged is supposed to be a crime of ad hominem attack.
Pah! So be it.
You still give NO details about your deemed trans existence, but apparently want us to just swallow that as a fact.
When challenged you want an apology.
Oh Dear! Pathetic.
Margaret wrote “Although not a core part of feminist ideology, a number of feminists disagree with war, and the loss of lives…”
How does this fit with the wars piano legs Clinton is waging for IsraHell? Feminists don’t have the high ground on these issues. Also, why are feminists remarkably silent of the USSR genderside against men who make up the great part of the 65 million executions.
Pardon me if I sound ungrateful Margaret, but talk is cheap. We’ve heard it all before. Fact is, you don’t need us to ‘let you’ do anything. If you want to support men’s rights, go right ahead – take the fight to your sisters. Don’t come to our sites and try and give us a lesson in manners.
That goes for you too Julie. You’re not helping us by slagging off the Spearhead, swearing at the readers of ‘Voice for Men’, calling Bernard Chapin a ‘con-man’, declaring that you don’t support men’s rights at that site, then coming here and pretending that you do. We get that you’re collecting the DPB and threatened by any reforms the men’s movement might make – so we know what you’re up to.
The items on that list are a load of crap and always have been. Again, any man of honor or dignity or integrity or character would not do those things. Some men do, but most do not. Many men, such as myself, have never enjoyed any privileage, invisible or otherwise. As a matter of fact, most men with whom I am acquainted live well below any woman of average or even below average lifestyle with no opportunity for improvement through honest means. Again, what you are describing is not male privileage but privileage of an alpha male in a caste system or a feminist enabler and not an honest hard-working male in a civilization. Too many people confuse civilization with what we were before – a caste where 20% of males mated with 80% of females and the other 80% of males lived at the margins of society on their own wits (which is to say they were smarter than the alpha males because they had to survive on their own without benefit of other community members – it’s one explanation for the origin of our intelligence as a species and why it is largely believed females didn’t develop the intellect that men did – because they didn’t have to but instead benefitted from the herd mentality instead – just another strategy for survival – when you don’t have intelligence, you go with the group). I assure you, I enjoy no unconscious male privileage – most women and a lot of men I know wouldn’t survive one day of my life. I have no friends and rely upon no one for my survival. I certainly don’t waste my time with a woman. I’m not a misogynist since I hate everyone, including transgenders (no offense).
Hello again, Darryl X,
Being raped is a load of crap?
Well, I have to agree. It was a pretty crappy experience. Soul-destroying, actually.
However, as a male, it is one that you will most likely never experience in your lifetime. This is an important and very invisible aspect of male privilege that very few men ever stop to consider – that as a male human being, their chances of being raped or otherwise sexually abused are drastically lower than those of a female human being.
While there are men you know who live in impoverished conditions, comparatively, there will always be women who are worse off financially and who live in worse conditions (i.e. being raped and physically abused on a regular basis as well as living in squalor with zero financial means).
The fact that you do not pause to consider the existence of such people shows that you male sense of entitlement is still alive and well, despite your situation.
You claim that most people wouldn’t survive a day of your life. This is known as ‘Oppression Olympics’ and I can assure you that as a transgnder woman, I’ll win gold every time if we compete.
As I stated earlier, your privilege is invisible, because you have never been able to step outside it lose it, by virtue of living as a male.
Should you wish to actually experience how the other half lives and gain a balanced and informed perspective, then I urge you to live as a woman for a while and find out first hand, instead of regurgitating the same dusty old third-hand rhetoric.
FYI, there is no such thing as ‘transgenders’ (who, BTW, come in many flavours, including women who become men and live in even worse conditions and suffer massively more discrimination and oppression than you could ever imagine).
Hi again Cate,
I wonder if the things on the list you supplied are, actual male priveledges or, someones opinion on what’s male priveledge.
And therefore pretty subjective
If Im to be employed first, and thats my priveldge, as you say, as being male, can I seek legal redress if a female is employed over me as this would surely be sexist and opposing to my said priveldge?
I mean, I either have the priveledge or I dont……. dont I?
And I noticed that you have missed the list, be it very small, of priveledges enjoyed by women. Was this an over sight?
Its brilliant to have someone in your position that can give an opinion from both sides of the coin so to speak as Im sure you will understand that your entreaty to skeptic
I strongly recommend that you live as a woman for several years, then return to us with the data you have gathered on the differences you experienced while living as the other gender.
While being laudable in the grand scheme of gender harmony isnt really that practicle in reality.
Im not sayingt you couldnt try it Skeptic, thats entirely up to you, but I would wait till Cate has forwarded the list (be it ever so humble) of female priveldge that you would be entiltled to.
Actually, at least in the US, most homeless (poor) are men, most raped are men (in prisons), most victims of domestic violence and child abuse are men and boys, most victims of violence in general are men, and on and on. In the US, for every hour worked, for every hazard, on average, women have greater incomes than men. I think you get the picture. And that is with a significant alpha male population running the show for feminists. No male privileage here. It’s all women. That being said, rape is a very rare crime, and for every real rape of a woman there are at least eight men falsely accused and many of them are sent to prison despite absolutely no evidence of their guilt (something like that). I’m sorry. That list is a fantasy. There is not male privileage operating. There hasn’t been for four thousand years. And even then, it was only 20% of males and 80% of females benefited from it.
Thanks for reading through the list. I don’t know why you fixated on employment when there are far more salient points (I think), like vastly improved freedom from rape and sexual abuse/harassment, but I’ll address that point nonetheless.
‘Privileges’ are no enshrined in law. You don’t have legal standing if a qualified woman gets a job over your lesser qualifications. Why? Because that’s ‘fair’. Male privilege is ‘unfair’. It is when men get something by virtue of being men that would no be given to them if the other person was also male; i.e. being promoted ahead of a woman who not only works harder, but endures more harassment and sexism in the workplace than all of the men in the office combined.
To address your response to the bolded section; yes, it is actually practical and realistic for a person to change genders.
I have done it.
I appreciate that it would be scary and emasculating and that’s why it is perceived as neither practical or realistic, but those aren’t actually very valid reasons. For anyone who has a genuine interest in the differences in how society treats men and women, I would think that this would be something they would be very keen to try out.
As for ‘female privileges’, I’m struggling to come up with any. Perhaps it’s because anything that might be construed as ‘female privilege’ is tied to chivalry, so it’s also an institution that is controlled by men and can therefore be taken away if a woman does not ‘stay in her place’.
Probably the only relevant ‘female privilege’ I can think of is that we’re more likely to be awarded custody of our children in a custody battle. However, considering that it was the woman’s health and career that was put as risk by pregnancy, I think that’s more of a ‘trade off’ than something ‘extra’ that women have over men.
I’m sure that if you could gestate your own child, the courts would be far more likely to award you custody 🙂
If you can think of any ‘female privileges’ then please don’t hesitate to post them – I’d be happy to examine them from the perspective of someone who has lived as both genders.
No offense, but maybe that’s why you became a woman – because you made such a bad man. I dunno. Just speculating.
Hi Darryl X,
Oddly enough, this sexual abuse and violence you have described is perpetrated BY men, on OTHER men.
Perhaps you guys could get together and inform each other that doing this to each other (and women) isn’t cool?
Also, could you please quote the source of your statistic for false rape claim, please? Because I’m very happy to cite evidence to the contrary.
Hi Darryl X,
Actually, I was an incredibly successful man. From what I gather, amazingly more successful than yourself.
So no offense taken; you’re not exactly the poster boy for masculinity.
I guess what I’m saying is that women tend to project on men their own qualities (for a variety of physiological reasons, men don’t project on women as much), and so many of the experiences and traits that women believe men have, it’s really women that have them. I’ve listened my entire life about the Patriarchy and male privileage, but have never (NEVER) actually seen it, but I have always seen female privileage routinely.
No, I failed pretty much as a man. I’m not disappointed with my choices, just the outcomes. Can’t always do too much about that in post feminist dystopian police state.
Hi Darryl X,
We covered this earlier in detail:
Your male privilege is invisible to you because you have never stepped outside the role of being a male.
As I said, should you live as woman for a while; you would find the sudden loss of your male privilege to be stark and quite frightening. But I very much doubt you would ever do such a think, because you are aware on quite a fundamental level that you would be incapable of surviving as a woman – that given your current financial and social means, you’d be (forgive the language) super-fucked living as you do now if you were female.
There are many many many scholarly articles about false rape allegations. So many that to list them would be pointless.
Concerning violence, yes there is a lot of male on male and even male on female violence, but much of that violence is instigated by women. The instigation of great wars by women is the stuff of mythology. The killing of children by their mother to spite fathers is so common as to have achieved mythological status.
I’m not suggesting that all violence is instigated by women, but must is. Even the wars the US currently is pursuing is largely instigated by women. They wag their fingers at it but then keep feeding it. It’s common crazy-making behavior. Typical women. Men are so stupid to do their bidding.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about my life that are incorrect. That being said, as oppressed a man as I am, I am much happier. I would never want to be a woman. Maybe your experience is not so much as a woman but as a transgender. I dunno, just thinking outside the box, so to speak.
Good discussion Cate
Raises a few issues alright,
I didnt fixate as you put it on the employment issue it was simply top of the list. I do feel that your not comparing apples with apples though as in your own example suddenly the female beats my lesser qualifications.
the list makes no mention of this
My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
It seems to me you use the list as a hook to get the ball rolling and then bring in a wildcard to rationalise the debate.
Started off that Im “probably” more likely to get the job instead of a female based on gender
and ended up that Im getting the job over someone with better qualifications, who works harder and who has stoically put up with more harrassment and sexism than everyone else in the office.
Even I feel bad now that this paragon of industry, this emminently suitable candidate missed out due to my having a penis, and I dont even know her.
All this talk of rape you seem to conveinently ignore reports of sexual molestation of young men under the age of consent by women. Or is this not rape? Once again the list of male priviledge ignores this concept.
And if Gestation is the main reason for skewing the awarding of custody to the female gender then what of cases of adoption where gestation wouldnt be the issue.
As I said in my last post I’ll leave it up to Skeptic to try the option of changing genders to gain a better insight into all this. I let a doctor go near me nether regions with a knife once so that I could have control over my reproductive rights as experience have shown me this is not an issue to be trusted with females and that was enough for me.
Hi Darryl X,
I think you’ve rather proven the point for every feminist on the planet; you don’t want to be a woman. From this we can clearly conclude that you think that there is something undesirable about not being a man, therefore women are lesser creatures than men.
Darryl, do you think you could explain to us why there is no female equivalent of the word ’emasculate’?
I would be very keen to find out why this is.
P.S. there is no such thing as ‘a transgender’.
Hi Darryl X,
If there are so many ‘scholarly articles’ then surely you won’t have any problems citing one for us? There being so many of them, it could hardly be problematic citing your sources, correct?
Could you please explain to me how these male-on-male conflicts are being caused by women? I’m failing to see how. I operate in many female circles and I’ve yet to hear anyone say “Hey, let’s get the men to start a WAR” or anything of the kind. I mean, if we women are as unintelligent as you claim, then how on earth do our feeble ladybrains control you strong, intelligent men?
I look forward to your detailed explanation 🙂
Hi again Mits,
As I’m sure you are aware, reports of sexual molestation on boys by women are comparatively very rare. More common is sexual molestation of boys by men, as I’m sure you are also aware.
On the job discussion, that was my bad for attempting to explain how privilege works, about how privilege is ‘unfair’. I should probably have not used the example of a more qualified woman, instead I should have quoted you the statistics for the number of female CEOs and politicians worldwide. Or perhaps I should have cited that 6 out of 10 bachelor’s degrees are awarded to women, but the median salary for a man with a bachelor’s degree is $9,916 higher than that of a woman with a bachelor’s degree.
I won’t make that mistake again. I apologise if I confused you.
You’re right; the custody issue isn’t just about pregnancy (though I’m sure that’s a factor), it’s about the astonishingly bad track record that men have with children. I would think that your focus should rather be on educating men and preventing sexual and physical abuse of children by men. That would be the logically consistent solution, would it not? I’m dead certain that if the stats for sexual and physical voilence at the hands of men were to decline, there would be a dramatic overall shift in how society views men.
I’m confused by your need for surgery to control your reproductive rights. Why not try sex with other men? It’s clearly an excellent solution, as neither of you can get pregnant and you don’t have to involve us horrible female creatures 🙂
On the molestation issue
wether its rare or not isnt the issue and doesnt excuse the fact that it happens and you cant ignore the fact that women are the perpertrater in these cases which was omitted in your mens priviledges list
And on the job issue
statistics can be used to show any slant you wish to put on the issue
but the median salary for a man with a bachelor’s degree is $9,916 higher than that of a woman with a bachelor’s degree
Tell me the company that pays males with a batchelors degree $9916 dollars more than females with the same degree doing the same job with the same experience, attitude, ability, work ethic and performance level and I will gladly go with you to protest outside their office for gender pay equality. I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work.
Do you not see any contradiction in your stance that men in this society have it made with their invisable institutionalised priviledge and then to say that that very same society would veiw men differently and allow them better access with their own children if men in general lift their game?
As for the rest of your last post to me dont you think that was slightly peurile considering we were exchanging info so freely?
The fact that it is rare IS an issue actually. It shows that men are far more predisposed towards violent and sexually abusive behaviour. That’s a plain old fact. It means that any woman who has to interact with men places herself at a moderate risk of sexual of physical abuse, while any man who interacts with women is at a very low risk of sexual or physical abuse.
If you don’t think this is a problem, then I don’t think I can discuss this issue any further, as you have no concern for the safety of women and are therefore not safe for me to interact with.
You claim that statistics can be used to put any slant on things you wish. That’s a bit of a stretch really; and the argument I expect to hear from someone who doesn’t like statistics being quoted which disprove something they have claimed.
On the issue of women earning less for a bachelor’s degree, I will expect to see you at the next gender pay equality rally outside parliament. Study after study after study shows that the pay gap is real. That is undisputed FACT. Would you like me to cite some of these studies?
Men having poor access to custody? Well, when you take all the pies, you’re going to eventually find a fly in the pastry. White privilege has some minor disadvantages (higher rate of skin cancer) so there isn’t any reason why male privilege is total – we’ve had a good 40+ years of feminism now, so we should be making SOME progress, right?
And my last wasn’t puerile at all. When I was male, I had sex with men. I enjoyed it. I fail to see what is puerile about that, unless you’re being deliberately homophobic?
I don’t think that most men are unreasonable or selfish.
I know I would gladly share the invisible male privileges Cate J alludes to that allows:
* boys to do worse than girls in every single year of education WITHOUT EXCEPTION
* men to die an average 6 years earlier than women
* men to receive a pittance of the health budget that is forced upon those poor hard-done-by women
* men to receive on average 6 years less retirement than women
* males to have a suicide rate FOUR TIMES that of females
* male victims of domestic violence to be trivialised and IGNORED
* male victims of female rape and sexual assault to be IGNORED
* the 1 male killed (and his surviving friends and family members) every 8Ã‚Â½ weeks by his intimate female partner to be IGNORED
* the male incarceration rate to be 94.3% of all incarcerations whilst ignoring female behaviours that are deeply offensive to males.
* prospective fathers ZERO power over whether his unborn child lives or is killed by abortion
* males to be forced at our Government’s whim to kill, or be killed, in defence of our country
* males 100%, with the very rare exception some years, of all work related deaths
* males the lion’s share of all serious work related injuries
* males the ……… BAH, I GIVE UP, I’M RUNNING OUT OF INK …..
Considering the aforementioned invisible male privileges, I’m seriously thinking of becoming a woman too.
Women make up the majority of voters in New Zealand and so I might be better off being in that group mostly responsible for the current state of our society. I have it on good authority that, not only can I be most responsible for societal woes (by belonging to the largest voting group), but I can also play the victim FOREVER …. [evil-witch-cackle]MUAHAHAHAHAHA[/evil-witch-cackle] ….
Hang on there Cate
You seem to be putting more into my posts than I have
I dont think any kind of violence or abusive behaviour from either gender is OK.
And my opinion when you try to rationlise females acting in this manner as being less offensive due to it happening on a lesser scale then this is wrong
Therefore to use your own logic since Im of the opinion that all violent and abusive behavior is wrong and you have only raised one gender as being the issue I would say that morally I have the high ground here and hence you can feel safe. Wether you chose to or not is your own Prerogative.
The gender pay gap I have heard about it several times and I will repeat my invitation to you
Tell me the company that pays males with a batchelors degree $9916 dollars more than females with the same degree doing the same job with the same experience, attitude, ability, work ethic and performance level and I will gladly go with you to protest outside their office for gender pay equality. I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work.
Im glad though that today we made some progress and you admitted that this male priviledge isnt total. This was a huge advance on your earlier statements. I feel quite chuffed at that so thankyou.
Im heterosexual and a male so therefore I dont see myself having sex with males as some form of birth control. I have not made any comment on your sexual orientation or gender but find it very interesting you chose to throw the term homophobic into what had been a rather amicable discussion. Im left wondering if that speaks more to issues your dealing with than I am. But I’ll leave that up to others to decide.
I’ve just been informed by my (male) partner of some of the MRA affiliates of this site and I feel distinctively UNSAFE being on here.
Thanks for the debate, feel free to claim victory.
I’d appreciate if an admin could remove my posts, though I understand that this probably won’t happen, since women’s safety is not a consideration that sites like this ever have.
“Veni, vidi, vici”
And there goes another poor deluded paranoid victim of feminism.
veni verdi victimus.
Amidst the sometimes over the top and the occasional banal there exists another brilliant conceptual clusterbomb from the spearhead.com –
My goodness. I love that site!
I going to donate again to them.
My apology for the double posting. I placed this earlier on the wrong thread.
Reading this thread is like stepping back in time to about 1985!
Talk about stuck in a timewarp!
All this tedious chest beating about some supposed Ã¢â‚¬Ëœpatriarchy’.
My goodness, where did I park the Kingswood? Is it time for Ã¢â‚¬ËœGliding on’ to start yet?
What do you think of this new guy on the wing Kirwin?
OK. Enough. Down to business. Literally.
More men are CEOs because they choose to be, take the risks and do the hard yards necessary to get there. The vast majority of women don’t show the same level of interest in getting there, and frankly with so much vast societal support for women’s this and women’s that they don’t need to.
Get over it, or continue to live a bitter deluded existence.
Men are raped every day and in vastly greater numbers than women.
I know, I know some of you’ve got your knickers in a twist already reading that.
But hear me out.
The ideas by no means as daft as it might at first seem.
Plus remember you are after all at MENZ a site dedicated to “a clearer understanding of MEN’S EXPERIENCE” (not a site dedicated to women’s mere interpretation of MEN’S EXPERIENCE – there’s a huge gulf of a difference between the two).
Rape is ultimately the use of someone’s body against their will.
Think about that for a moment.
Using that definition it’s reasonably easy to show that every day throughout the western world millions of men have their bodies used against their will.
Subject to false allegations of domestic violence and other forms of abuse legions of them end up alienated as parents yet forced under threat of prison and loss of passport (effectively rendered captive in national feminist penal institutions) to pay child support (Often at rates they cannot afford).
Some don’t make it.
They crack. They commit suicide.
Others die more slowly succumbing to the stress and/or turning to drugs and crime to numb the pain and trying to make ends meet.
Men only, being as they are subject to male only arrest conventions, live in relationships with women who are (whether they like to like to acknowledge it or not) effectively policing them.
These female Ã¢â‚¬Ëœpolice’ have the power to have enforcers punish them at any time day or night, cruelly, without good reason nor evidence and with total impunity.
A man in the Anglospher living with a woman is one phone call away from hell.
Men only are drafted in times of war.
Men only helplessly see they’re children murdered (euphemistically and clinically called abortion. Freeely available up to the third trimester – steal yourself and google images for the full horrific view – a picture tells a thousand words. Trust me you may well have difficulty uttering any of them as you’ll be so breathlessly horrified)
Men only pay way over the odds in tax for the paultry services their gender recieved from government compared to women. Were such services provided we could expect men once again as in prior times would live as long as women.
The needlessly institutionalised longevity gap between men and women is a very recent historical anomaly. USA Census statistics show men living one year less than women in 1901, then 7 years less than women by the 1980s, so obviously the cause isn’t genetic but due to social/environmental life stresses.
Men would also therefore be enjoying as much retirement time as women with the taxes they’d paid during a lifetime of labor coming back to them in the form of state pensions.
Another form of taxation WITH representation they currently lack.
Men only don’t have their own department of government, study courses at university, advocates for business, sports, study, health.
Men only routinely not only get arrested and incarcerated without corroborative evidence and evicted from their own homes effectively but also see their families abducted and their estate’s mercilessly plundered.
This list is but short.
It is a long way from being conclusive and could easily go on for several more paragraphs.
Other MRA are very welcome to add to it.
These aren’t subjective opinions supported by fuzzy logic and warped social Ã¢â‚¬Ëœscience’ either.
They’re easily verified facts and views formed by personal conversations MRAs have had with many thousands of men over several decades.
To therefore come to MENZ and start bandying around ideas that we live in some mythical Ã¢â‚¬Ëœpatriarchy’ where men lord it over women is rich in irony.
It’s also obscene and tells us there’s another another wave of ignorant bigotry about men to mop up with truth and reason.
Now to turn to the antithesis – Ã¢â‚¬ËœMargaret’s’ solipsism.
I put the name in inverted commas as we still have no details about who this person really is other than being told they’ve had a sex change operation.
The same could certainly be said about me, but the difference is I’ve been posting at MENS fror years so my identity is all over this site and exists for people to discover by reading.
He/She/Whatever asserts that men can’t be aware of their privilege because its’ invisible to them.
Well, I say the so called privilege is highly questionable to start with.
Furthermore if men were so lacking in self awareness (another gross demeaning assumprtion) then he/she/whatever may as well give up right now and accept that short of having millions of men get a snip and tuck (never going to happen despite some feminists gory fantasies) such mythical awareness wouldn’t eventuate in anycase. They present a self defeating argument!
A good way of untangling this kind of thinking is to reverse the roles.
But I expect you would feel stupid saying to a woman you’ll never understand how it is to be a man unless you get a sex change and grow testicles and a beard.
For such flawed logic as Ã¢â‚¬ËœMargaret’ promotes entirely missing a very salient point and in the process chillingly segregates man and women into opposing and mutually competing camps.
The point so obviously missed is that men who are Men’s Rights Advocates/Activists are demanding HUMAN rights.
Read that agin we demand HUMAN rights.
Rights to things we deserve yet are denied because so many folks have been duped into sympathising with the false notion of there being a patriarchy under which Ã¢â‚¬Ëœpoor downtrodden’ women suffer more than men, and therefore there should only be a whole raft of services, laws and conventions for the protection of women.
The whole thing is a philosophical construct about as robust as a wet cardboard box. It crumbles under the weight of it’s own inbuilt inconsistencies.
Let’s lend a hand and add weight.
Not to deny women human rights, but to gain similar HUMAN rights for men.
The right to taxation WITH representation.
The right to be free of the terrorism of feminism – arrest and detention without trial before a panel of peers.
The right to unfettered association with and nurturing of our familiies.
The right to representation of our own unique sexes issues by the body politic and subsequent delivery of health, welfare and education services relecting our sexes level of overtaxation and need.
The right to free passage inside our nations and internationally.
The right to live in human dignity free from the demeaning tenants of institutionalised feminism which routinely and comprehensively denies men’s plight.
Oh noes, she “feels” UNSAFE.. I think the white knights are supposed to come charging to her aid now… in 3..2..1…
Oh look.. no-one bothered..
Cate, we don’t care how you “feel”.. This is a mens site, about men, by men, for men.. your “feelings”, are completely irrelevant.
However, we are quite partial to facts.
Here are some facts..
Read through every post, then come back to me to tell me how great life is for men!
Firstly Skeptic, Margaret and Cate are different people. Secondly, I too should have realised much earlier there were MRA supporters on this site and as such there was no point in speaking an opinion. How one could ever argue with people harbouring such historically inaccurate views of the world, in which it it believed FEMINISM has brought about overtaxation of men, inequal death rates of men vs women in war, rape of men in prison etc, in a world that was run by men until at least the 1980s, is beyond me. I do believe that feminism and the masculinist movement have things to offer each other however as feminism abhors the strict gender roles which have made both men and women suffer throughout history. Thanks.
Margaret – You believe something for which there is no empirical evidence. Most women don’t subscribe to your philosophy and don’t believe the things you do. They just go along with it because you’re a bully and they are afraid of you. When you believe so strongly in something for which there is no empirical evidence and impose those beliefs upon those around you under threat of more oppression and tyranny, then that’s a delusion and really abusive. I simply do not know where women like you (if that’s what you are) come up with these bizarre ideas that the world has been run by men up until recently. Between four thousand years ago and recently, the world was for large part a civilization in which women and men cooperated and women enjoyed a much higher standard of living than men – in just about every measure, that is a pretty accurate portrayal of the facts. It is myth and delusion that women were somehow oppressed by men. And even before four-thousand years ago, most women still enjoyed a much higher standard of living than most men – it just wasn’t a civilization. You’ve made the mistake of buying a bill of goods that doesn’t exist. You need to consult the facts and evaluate them objectively. Women have always had at least as much power as men. That being said, it is the inclusion of men from the margins of society into families that gave birth to civilization. That’s something that women could never do themselves without men. And now that women are rejecting men and their contributions to civilization, it is disintegrating.
You’re still dodging the issue Margaret.
You make this comment:
But you say NZ feminists would support many of Warren Farrell’s views, you don’t say are.
They don’t need anyone’s permission. If they’re all for men’s ‘equality’, why so shy? They haven’t been so slow in coming forward to get more for themselves over the last 50 years.
The only time we men ever see feminists is when they come to our sites and try to tell us we’re imagining everything, or that we might have a point if only we worded things different, or that we have everything bloody wonderful but we can’t see it. Somehow you forget 7000 blokes locked up in prison, 400 who top themselves every year, and the 1000s who have been barred from their families.
A bigger bunch of condescending, self-serving, crooked know-it-alls would be hard to find.
I can only think of something positive to say so I say LOL.
I consider I have had good relationships with men up until I met you online. Now I can’t bear to be touched by a male and I haven’t for the 5 years I’ve known you. (this is online men in general, not you per se)
Maybe men online hating women is cutting edge but as I have told all MRAs I met online, offline, …. I wouldn’t have joined a man hating group so I am not about to join a woman hating group.
Cutting edge, maybe, sick maybe, dangerous maybe, life definitely.I am glad I am not eduated overall. And I pleased males are dropping out of school before university. You don’t know how damaging your cutting edge just happens to be, IMO.
And this is my answer to MRAs who are wondering why I won’t get intimate with men. lol
This needs to be corrected.
Boys are half the victims of child sexual abuse and are as likely to be abused by either gender. Outside the home setting they are more likely victims than girls. They are mocked, denied justice or even acknowledgement. Nearly three quarters of the victims of all child abuse were abused by women. Tell THEM how comparatively rare THEY are.
The lies perpetuated by you and your feminism do grave harm to many victims thus marginalised. Understand that when you marginalise victims you contribute to the harm the abuse causes them. You may as well be a participant abuser. Shame on you.
Amazing. Did you once consider the participants here as human beings when you waltzed in to this place? Were you seriously expecting a docile response to your hectoring? Can you not see the aggression in your own behaviour?
What a classy act. Provoke pain and anger in folk and then flounce off into the sunset proclaiming yourself a victim of these nasty abusive people.
Into the bargain you want all concerned to leap to your defence and to protect you by erasing evidence of your passage.
You dare lecture THEM about privilege?
It’s a nasty game you play Cate J. I suspect your elected gender has nothing to do with that nastiness of yours’.
I note that you have sufficient hatred of masculinity to take the drastic step of changing your own gender. You are in no position to be lecturing men about what or who they should be.
Your agenda is transparent. Personally I have no problem with you rejecting your own gender as an individual. However, we are not here to rationalise your decision for you. Maybe you were previously a disgusting, privileged individual and it was somehow because you were male. I am not. Nor are any of the other folk here, male and female alike.
Please take your perverse, degrading and objectifying notions of what constitutes masculinity back to Alas where they belong.
Regarding Cate J: I have been away then busy and I have just caught up with this thread. I note that Cate J claimed to have experienced life as a man then as a woman and that she found her life as a man much more privileged. Yet when asked to describe those privileges she provided no personal experiences at all but simply referred us to a published list of general feminist claims. She then proceeded to make ridiculous suggestions that men here change their gender surgically in order to see what it’s like to be a female, that men here have sex with other men, and that somehow her safety was under threat merely by posting here. Talk about taking the mickey! I deduce that Cate J was a liar all along, never had a sex-change operation at all but simply invented this story in an effort to provide unwarranted weight to her female victim identity and denial of the problems men routinely face as described on this site. I conclude also that Cate J has not bothered to read much of what has been written on MENZ or she would have been made aware of such pearls as the pussy pass in Western justice systems, as well as all the social statistics that show men are a disadvantaged class.
Men listened to women’s dissatisfaction over the last 200 years or so and supported change to improve women’s claimed lot. Within decades men brought about changes to gender relations that had operated going right back to our mammalian evolutionary ancestors. The comments by Cate J and other feminists who pop in to MENZ show that men cannot expect anything like the same empathy, cooperation and support that men showed to women.
I strongly support Mits’ challenge that Cate J name any company paying a woman with the same qualifications and experience less than a man for the same job. The ongoing claim by women that they are discriminated against in employment is made on the basis of their average earnings. In most Western countries there are laws guaranteeing women equal pay for equal jobs. Therefore, what feminists are now demanding is equal pay for less than equal work.
Thanks to all those who responded to Cate J in genuine but futile attempts to engage in sensible dialogue.
Margaret or Cate or whoever you are posting as. You entirely miss the point again.
It isn’t that there’s no point in speaking an opinion, it’s as others state that you’ve been challenged and failed to back up your hectoring of men with facts, data and anything more than a feminist hate list. You then try to turn the tables by calling us MRA dogmatic as though that’s some cardinal sin. For the record I’m TOTALLY dogmatic about my lived experience and the lived experience of many men I’ve witnessed. That shared experience is completely at odds with the notion of us living in some oppressive ‘patriarchy’.
My reading of history doesn’t view the world as having been patriarchal either. I see historically both men and women had areas of power and powerlessness with a kind of balance between the sexes until feminism reared it’s ugly head.
ANd now you go off in a huff claiming it was pointless trying to have a discussion with us. Well newsflash sister, we can make exactly the reverse claim you make. We could say we should have known better than to try and engage in a dialogue with a feminist fundamentalist. But we tried, and you are the one choosing to disengage because you can’t get your own way. So it does indeed seem futile now. But we had to try in order to find out.
At the end of the day I think the feminism you support will loose ground. More and more people are waking up to the evils of that philosophy which despite the noble claims of freeing both genders from sex roles practically amounts to a female supremacist movement and makes no effort to free men as feminists are so fixated on getting revenge for the shallow naive deluded notion of historical and contemporary patriarchy.
I wish you well despite our differences.
It must be hellish living with your mindset, I don’t envy you a bit.
For despite your many female only privileges as we’ve outlined earlier you’re running out of friends whereas I think our MRA star is on the rise.
Spot on Daryl X.
Here’s the myth that women were oppressed in days gone by exposed in graphic detail.
I totally agree with you yeah right. Warren Farrel’s views have been around for several decades now and well knowen to feminists too as he used to be a memberof the National Organisation for Women in USA before denouncing feminism.
Yet clearly feminists in NZ have done diddly squat for men and boys except demonize them in all that time.
I look forward to Margaret, Cate J and any other feminists asking us to back up that claim with data, facts and anecdotes from our personal life experience.
Didn’t want to be touched in the five years of meeting me.
What a hoot!
Incredible coming from such a lovestruck yet rejected cyber stalker.
MRAs equals women hating.
Jeepers! Another nonsensical regression I see.
Apparently hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
Feminism is a product of economies in the world and civilization.
Feminism is parasitic and its hosts are those economies and civilization. Without them, feminism can’t exist. Like a virus, it utilizes the mechanisms of that civilization to grow and ultimately kills the host in which it grows.
After feminism has destroyed those economies and civilization, women will still have absolute power and control, it just won’t be called feminism because that absolute power won’t be in a civilization but a caste.
An important reason civilization was created is to wrestle absolute power away from women so civilization could advance, as it couldn’t when women had absolute power and control in a caste, and they prevented independent thought and sharing of ideas and growth of scientific knowledge and understanding.
This suppression of ideas and independent thought is an expression of malignant narcissim and psychopathy. That’s how feminists are psychopaths – they believe that everyone is an extension of them and any idea that is not theirs and that they do not share and cannot take credit for will not be allowed and will actively be punished.
There are many good examples of literature discussing malignant narcissism and psychopathy and their relationship to feminism and how feminism is the political or institutionalized expression of psychopathy and malignant narcissism. Oscare Wilde wrote about this a lot. So have many other scholars.
That’s why marriage was so important, as it encouraged men existing at the margins of a tribe to contribute their labor and advance technology and ideas and thought and scholar for advancing civilization. It created families of which men were the heads so that they could keep the malignant narcissism of women in check. Men were rewarded for their labor with children and companionship (if you call a relationship with a malignant narcissist companionship).
In a caste, women still had absolute power just like feminists do in a civilization, because 80% of women mated with 20% of men. Civilization balanced out that power by giving more men choices in the fate of the caste. Before they had none. Women could no longer run around killing their children and men because for the first time their numbers were equal – it was no longer 80 women against 20 men.
Feminism has no practical goal to maintaining civilization because the power of women is absolute despite civilization. Today, feminism has expanded to such horrendous capacity because the mechanisms of law that did not exist during a caste have been manipulated by feminists against the population. So, it’s even worse than a caste. Not only do women have absolute power and command the 20% of men they commanded in a caste, but now they command the other 20% of women that did not mate with 20% of men in a caste AND the other 80% of men that used to exist at the margins of society – these men and women are now slaves.
When men pursue violence whether during war or in families or in street gangs, the goals are practical secure resources for advancing civilization. The only things that differ between adversaries is their ideas in how to advance civilization.
In a family, a man is violent toward a woman mostly because she is abusing or threatening to abuse a child. That is the most common reason given by men for domestic violence. It is a practical goal.
In a family, a woman is violent toward a man because her emotional “needs” are not being met. That is an impractical goal. It is solipsistic. And in study after study, it is the primary reason cited by women for their violence.
When law no longer discourages the senseless violence of women and punishes the practically-oriented violence of men, the absolute power and control of women grows unchecked.
This imbalance results in the destruction of our economies and civilization, which is happening now.
Until feminism is eliminated, the population of the world will descend into a vast and unsustainable caste structure or worse – an oppressive and tyrannical post feminist dystopian police state, in which feminists still have absolute power and control, no ideas are shared and allowed to advance technology and improved living conditions and civilization and everyone are slaves to feminists.
Once the mechanisms or vestiges of civilization dissolve and feminists no longer have the tools to enslave everyone, most men and some women will go back to existing at the margins of a caste or tribe and the former feminists will go back to ruling over the 20% of men with whom they mate. And civilization will have collapsed. And so will feminism.
My last post was for Margaret.
Yes Skeptic, recent posts from Julie do expose her as a threat to men and the men’s movement. In my opinion, most of her posts either waste space through unintelligible content or cause division through challenging men’s experience, forwarding false information or supporting divisive and/or subversive forces damaging the movement. During the brief period that she did not post here MENZ quickly grew in contributors some of whom returned after previously leaving. I for one regret that she did not keep to her promise to discontinue her posting.
Quite frankly, a single parents’ support group is in some ways antithetical to the men’s movement. The DPB, so-called “child support” and numerous other state provisions reward parents for trashing their children’s family units, most of this predicated on financial and emotional abuse of men.
Well said Hans.
I’m confused, not only by Julie’s incoherent sentences, but also why a woman running a single mothers support group feels the need to post on a mens website. The only reasonable explanation is that she is an attention whore.
I too agree, abolishing the DPB, and child support would go a long way to restoring some sanity to our society. If a woman wants to get pregnant and have a child on her own, she should be free to do so. However she should have no right to expect financial support from either the taxpayer, or sperm donor.
Absolutely spot on Hans and womble.
I’m pleased to see Julie’s playing the damsel in distress role isn’t attracting any white knights rushing in to defend her ‘honor’ either.
Another sure sign that MRA is having a profound impact and gradually attitudes are hardening against feminists and their sympathizers and becoming more supportive of men.
I have to wonder if the recent shit-stirring visits from feminists ‘Margaret’ and ‘Cate’ weren’t instigated by Julie too.
That tells you how little I now trust her.
Some time ago I was warned that she is a feminist herself.
It certainly looks that way now.
I fully expect she will have the knives out looking for revenge more so than ever now. However I’m not worried as her screeds of nonsense and divisive ways are becoming glaringly evident to discerning folks who’ve been around MENZ a while.
Almost every time she posts she shoots herself in the foot.
It’s sad to see, as I once had high hopes of her becoming another woman like Barbara Faithful – very well educated and highly articulate supporter of Men’s Rights with a long history of wonderful outspoken compassionate advocacy.
I share womble’s misgivings.
I too despair at the legions of women who are solo parents by choice sponging of the state and men they’ve simply used as sperm donors then cast aside when it suits them.
I’m absolutely delighted therefore at the recent moves the National Party has made towards ending such a rort on taxpayers.
I only wish they would go further and hold women totally accountable for their reproductive choices as womble outlines.
As well I’d be delighted to see an end to no fault divorce (a terribly deceptive euphemism if ever I heard one as it’s all too often accompanied by a false accusation against a good father which in fact totally casts fault).
I see it as a social weapon of mass destruction all too often used by women to needlessly beat good men, alienate and effectively abduct children, bleed the state of much needed funds which means EVERYONE suffers. Hence my support for a marriage and fertility strike (part of MGTOW) and the bringing to market of the male birth control pill.
It’s a waste of time reading your comments Skeptic. I was stunned yesterday because I wanted to say how impressed I am with your comments to others and how I can care about something where feminism and masculism meet knowing that you have things under control.
Unfortunately, I didn’t get the chance to say this for you added something online I deleted immediately after realising it was inaccurate.
Look, we live in two completely different worlds but I respect you want to help men not take a risk that can be really painful while I want to help families that took the risk yet need help to make it work with the whole family’s well being cared for.
I say you have the harder job because you have to change the whole country (social engineering) while I just have to help men and women get what they want in their own families.
One of my basic rules is that if someone can’t state their case in plain simple language, then they could be trying something on.
Bullshitting well is very hard work.
A certain commenter here rings my what-the-f**k? bell every time she posts.
And it only gets worse:
Prostate screening could do more harm than good – Otago University (You’ll have to search this news item yourselves due to any of my posts containing a web link being redirected to Spam)
Prostate cancer screening should be reduced in New Zealand in light of research just published, an Otago University associate professor says.
The study provided important evidence that prostate screening of men with no symptoms was inappropriate medical practice.
Can men now assume that breast and cervical screening of women with no symptoms is inappropriate medical practice too? Yeah right!!
A great radio show which deals specifically with the thread topic – abusive women.
I know this is a late reply to this one, but I couldn’t resist.
Let me open myself to attack straight away by saying that cutting off extraneous parts of your body doesn’t make you a woman, CATE J. If that is your real name and last initial I am fairly sure I know who you are and witnessed daily the crap you used to pull in the workplace, accusing the boss of being sexist every 2nd day just because once he unthinkingly referred to the team as “you guys”. You cracked a fit which was rightfully ignored by everyone you complained to, and promptly resigned. People here are talking about real issues that cause stress, anxiety and despair to many of us. We are not talking about your deliberate taking offense at every little nuance of the english language which may unwittingly aid you in your claim to the status of “Victim”. That is all.
Yet another woman viciously butchers a man’s genitals.
This time just across the ditch in Oz.
Typically it’s been ignored by the NZ Press who apparently have more important things to report on such as what color certain celebrities dresses are.
After a recent spate of such incidents in USA it seems like there may be some copy catting going on.
There’s also a women’s organization in USA that is OPENLY advocating for the extermination of ALL males.
I kid ye not. I wish it were just a fantasy but if you go to A voice for Men website you’ll find the links and comments.
Best be hoping Radical feminists in NZ aren’t too closely aligned with some of their international nutbar sistas.
#3 women are f%#ken mental
Another great radio show.
This time Dr Tara Palmatier discusses female stalkers and how men can protect themselves.
Oh ouch. Gosh. How may years do you study to think this way?
My apology for my prior comment. I forgot men about the horrible feelings men go through when they break up their relationship.
I have good news though. We are in NZ waiting a Psychological abuse law on children and that means every couple that splits up and can’t make parenting orders work will loose their children.
Most western countries are doing it and feminists are fighting for mothers while men protest alongside grandparents. It’s such a shame for the fathers that care are insecure/
S0rry all for my words that are missing. Non of this means anything to anyone here -dads are greart
I forgot earlier @ #5 to add this link for the recent excellent radio show on female stalkers by Dr Tara Palmatier.