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Pets as Pawns in Patriarchal Power and Pontrol

Filed under: General — Ministry of Men's Affairs @ 10:29 pm Thu 29th March 2012

FYI, my letter to Radio NZ:

Dear Radio NZ

Regarding your story yesterday (Wednesday 28 March) on the ‘study’ about Pets as Pawns in domestic violence, I considered nominating Radio NZ for the Skeptics ‘Bent Spoon’ award for gullible, uncritical acceptance and reporting of dubious claims.

I note that in this evening’s (Thursday 19 March) Checkpoint a story on ‘fracking’ aired critical discussion of the research on that topic. For example, an environmental group spokesperson Theresa Gooden was reported to have said that studies claiming fracking to be safe were not “independent enough to be reliable”. Yet in the case of biased, predetermined research designed to denigrate men, Radio NZ simply acted as a mouthpiece for the propaganda merchants, asked no searching questions, sought no analysis from anyone independent concerning the validity or reliability of the claimed ‘findings’, and offered no opportunity to those damaged by the propaganda, i.e. men, to respond.

The pets study used Women’s Refuge staff firstly to select subjects then to carry out ‘semi-structured interviews’ with them. Another aspect of the study involved questioning Women’s Refuge managers and SPCA personnel who were preselected for already “knowing about” the pets/domestic violence links; talk about circular reasoning! Such research carried out by Women’s Refuge industry representatives constituted the least ‘independent’ research one can imagine. Further, it was statistically invalid and its findings can have no rational relevance for a wider population beyond those particular subjects questioned.

Nothing at all was done to seek corroboration for the subjects’ claims. For example, pets were claimed to have been seriously hurt but no effort was made to obtain veterinary records of the claimed injuries. All data were self-report or hearsay and there is simply no way of knowing how much of it is true.

The study made no attempt to control for observer bias and did no reliability checks. Given that the interviewers all were wedded to what they wanted to find and the semi-structured interview technique allows maximum opportunity to extract exactly that, it amounted to blatant engineering of results.

The study made no attempt to avoid interviewer demand characteristics and did nothing to ensure any ‘double blind’. The subjects were clients of the Women’s Refuge service and will have wanted to please staff by telling them what they wanted to hear (which was strongly implied in the leading questions on the interview guide). One may as well get the Pope to undertake interviews seeking self-reported effects on subjects about their past use of contraceptives or having abortions, ensuring that all subjects were first preselected by local priests; guess what results will be obtained?

The pets study questioned only women. If men were questioned similarly (especially by people providing them with accommodation and support), it may well be that a significant proportion of them will report abuse and threats towards pets etc by their female partners. The SPCA/WR study provides absolutely no basis for gender comparisons or analysis but that didn’t stop its report from implying that this is something only men do to women and children, or Heather Henare claiming the problem was all about patriarchal power and control tactics. (The Duluth Power and Control Model was always only an ideological, theoretical construct that has never been verified through good human science. Even our own independent, university based studies have shown that domestic violence mostly involves mutual violence in situations of relationship conflict. You must know this (you reported studies by Prof Fergusson and others in the past), so why do you not critically question those who now continue to characterize domestic violence as only a male = bad, female = victim problem?

Why would such a fantastic radio station that maintains high standards of journalism and critical enquiry in most other spheres then consistently fail to do so when it comes to feminist attacks on the male gender?

I request that in future you obtain comment from representatives of the men’s movement when stories arise that directly impact on the reputation or otherwise of men.

Yours faithfully


  1. There is a discussion on this subject in progress in the Wanganui Chronicle

    Anybody else like to have a go!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 1:28 am

  2. id have to agree with mr laws.i think half the stupid bitches bring their own issues upon themselves.drama queens manipulate their own shitty situations

    Comment by ford — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 7:57 am

  3. Yes ford,lets give some kudos to Mr laws for having the guts and fortitude for telling it how it really is…. And if my memory serves me correct, I did read in the media a couple of years ago… Mr laws was physical assaulted by his ex partner/wife in a domestic dispute and again, if my memory serves me correct Mr Laws ex partner/ex wife did confirm to the media she did assault him ….Were assault charges laid against her by the police?…Hmmmmmm…I think not

    king regards John Dutchie

    Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 9:38 am

  4. my ex assaulted me and my daughter 4 years ago. I later tried to press charges but the police refused to co-operate, saying it would be too difficult (They even had a statement from someone who had seen the entire event). I mentioned to them that they did when Kristin Dunne-Powell did the same thing with Tony Veith and they came to her rescue. Obviously I rattled their cage a bit. Would still love to prosecute the bitch for hurting my daughter and putting my shoulder out. Pussy pass in action everywhere in the feminist dictatorship of New Zealand…

    Comment by JS — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 1:01 pm

  5. Reply to JS

    Sorry to hear what happen to your daughter and yourself JS…But this type of situation you have posted I have heard so many times when I used to lived in N.Z

    Do remember JS there are many staunch ‘Butch’ kiwi feminists women in the N.Z police..And what I heard from ex nz male police officers they are really petrified of them

    The main thing here JS….. Please under no circumstances…. Do not let your daughter grow up to become male hating kiwi feminist…Even if it means you have to leave NZ to accomplish this

    Kind regards to JS

    Comment by John Dutchie — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 1:38 pm

  6. JS (#4): I’m not sure if there is any time limit to make a complaint about the police, but I would encourage you to do so regardless. I know they have had other recent complaints about police refusing to take action on behalf of male victims of violence in circumstances where there is no doubt they would press charges for a female complainant. It’s important we highlight and expose anti-male institutional sexism wherever we experience it. Otherwise, well, I guess we deserve whatever we get.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 2:01 pm

  7. Thanks Gwaihir for the heads up concerning the Wanganui Chronical debate. Fun is happening there. Feminist propaganda galore but this is being effectively exposed. These debates are excellent opportunities to add to the momentum of truth and rationality in our society’s gender beliefs.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sat 31st March 2012 @ 3:46 pm

  8. Thanks Hans, sometimes it gets a bit lonely here!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 11:36 am

  9. reply to Gwaihir#8

    Gwaihir,I truly do understand were you coming from …

    I felt exactly like you when I use to live and work as a male slave for the feminist state of ‘The republic of social engineered NZ’..

    I now permanently abode and work in a Asia country,have fantastic job but I intend to start my own business,dating a beautiful,highly intelligent Asian doctor ,and this fine Asian lady still as that wonderful strong ‘femininity’ quality that I will always honor,cherish ,respect and love….

    …I can not express enough on how contented and happy I am ….I have free myself from the shackles and chains from a feminist state….

    Kind regards John Dutchie free at last

    Comment by John Dutchie — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 12:04 pm

  10. Its gone personal here, an organisation supposedly supporting people has a Duluth wheel on ith front page. Says a lt about its neutrality.

    Comment by Gwaihir — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 1:10 pm

  11. @10. Where on the website do you see that? I cant see one

    Comment by JS — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 5:44 pm

  12. reply to JS #10

    I think what Gwaihir is referring too is on the left hand side,on top of the first page

    kind regards John Dutchie free at last

    Comment by John Dutchie — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 6:35 pm

  13. Must have taken it down but see

    Comment by Gwaihir — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 6:41 pm

  14. Thanks Gwaihir,
    I had not seen some of those wheels.
    Wonderful to see some de-genering of violence.
    It is NOT OK no matter who is the victim nor who is the perpetrator.
    Have you seen the Gender Neutral Power and Control wheel? Good stuff.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 7:09 pm

  15. @ post 10
    The Strustural Violence wheel is very relevant for lots of what PANIC is about. Good one!

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 7:14 pm

  16. To me, a gender neutral power and control wheel is about as useful as a racially neutral KKK manifesto. It begs the question of the validity of the assumptions and beliefs involved. Dressing it up differently makes it no more valid and no less destructive when it comes to understanding domestic violence or trying to help reduce relationship conflict.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Tue 3rd April 2012 @ 11:11 pm

  17. I respectfully disagree with you Hans.
    Once you get away from blaming and shaming because of ones gender and look at behaviours many I work with find this enlightening. They also observe many behaviours they have suffered themselves.
    Then looking at accountability and ways forwards often seem easier for people rather than suffering under a lot of labels and assumptions based on gender.
    The whole Duluth perspective that one gender holds all power and control and the way to remedy that is by the imposition of Protection Orders that give power and control all to the other gender is a terribly weak model. Labels are never that easily applied and making shades of grey into black and white just isn’t sensible in my opinion.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 1:00 am

  18. reply to Hans #16

    Good post Hans and I concur with you….I had a look at the Duluth wheel on there ‘Panic’ face book page…And please correct me if I wrong here, this what I saw

    Top right hand corner…A couple as Man and Women holding each a baby/toddler

    Bottom left hand corner….A Mother with her baby/toddler….

    Where do you see on the ‘Panic’ Duluth wheel a Father with his baby/toddler?….Answer is…zip…zero…nothing..

    That to me ,sends a clear message….Father … Irrelevant….Not worth mentioning

    And that is what Western European society as become, the disposal Father who is only fit to be used as a sperm donor and a walking ‘ATM’ machine for feminist control western European society.

    My apology to the author of this thread as I am getting side track here..

    Hans, my Asian Lady doctor partner put me onto this website called

    ‘’ well worth the read

    Kind regards to all, John Dutchie Free at last

    Comment by John Dutchie — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 4:22 am

  19. Reply to allan

    I respectfully disagree with you Allen…your following comments I going to address and very bluntly might I add…

    ‘Once you get away from blaming and shaming because of ones gender’…Okay then, and which gender on the whole does the majority of the ‘blaming’ in family courts?
    …The Mother

    ‘Then looking at accountability’ ….Is that so Allen, and pray tell me, how many times Women and Mothers have been so called held ‘accountable’ for committing professional perjury both though the justice system and family courts…as in false rape allegation,false sexual allegations against Fathers concerning there own children…False Domestic abuse allegation …etc…etc…because they think it is there ‘entitlement’ to do so…..

    And what is the usual outcome when a Women or a Mother as been caught out big time in committing professional perjury…Its called the ‘pussy pass’ Allen

    ‘labels and assumptions based on gender.’ Such as the standard procedure in NZ as in Man/Father = Bad….Women/Mother = Good

    ‘making shades of grey into black and white’ Yes Allan,I concur with on that one… The Feminists are truly the best at manipulating that one!!!!!!!

    Enough said…John Dutchie Free at last

    Comment by John Dutchie — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 2:57 pm

  20. Panic is run by master manipulators, one anyway is clearly violent!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 4:28 pm

  21. To qualify this see – Draw your own conclusions. I am neutral!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 4:31 pm

  22. Reply Gwaihir #20

    …I had a look at that web site Gwaihir…..All what I can say, there are some very ‘sick in head’ people that abode on this planet…

    John Dutchie Free at last

    Comment by John Dutchie — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 4:48 pm

  23. I am glad we agree John. I wish I were with you in Asia!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 4:57 pm

  24. Reply to Gwaihir #23

    Gwaihir…I truly understand how you feel, being there as in what you are experiencing..

    I am so happy and contented now, and I have found true inner peace in this wonderful Asian country where its not considered a crime to be ‘Man’ or ‘Father’…You will understand exactly what I mean on what I said here Gwaihir

    Have met and fallen love with a amazing Asian woman that I would truly sacrifice my life for,and I don’t say that lightly either Gwaihir…

    And I mean very word on what I am going to say now …I vow upon my blood I will never ever return to the Feminist ‘hell hole’ that NZ as become

    All what I can say to you Gwaihir stay strong good sir, and never ever apologize that you are a ‘Man’ and a decent loving ‘Father’…..

    Best wishes and warmest regards to you Gwaihir..John Dutchie Free at long last from the social engineered feminist state called New Zealand

    Comment by John Dutchie — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 7:53 pm

  25. Thank you John! 🙂

    Comment by Gwaihir — Wed 4th April 2012 @ 7:57 pm

  26. Hi All

    It has been drawn to my attention that there are some disparaging remarks around PANIC in your group. Which is why Ive felt it important to join up and ask some questions, and hopefully be able to answer some for you also.

    Id simply like to know why no one has come to us to ask our thoughts on these opinions expressed, mainly because over the last 6 – 9 months we have been hounded by another organisation (one that works within the same area as PANIC). They have touted over the net about how terrible we are, but are unable to show proof of anything they claim that relates to PANIC. Most of these statements have now been removed from the net, though I have all of them copied from the net, along with emails sent by these individuals to clients of ours and to ourselves. One of the emails is an attempt to blackmail one of our clients. This case is now going ahead through court, so I am unable to put details of it here.

    I see a point made here regarding the DULUTH wheel and there being a gender neutral one, can you tell me where I can find this please. We at PANIC are NOT into gender splitting .. when someone comes to us for support, they are a client, we have no issues around Men & women and would appreciate suggested alterations to our site which would portray this in a better way.

    We are an organisation of about 8 women and 4 men who work hard in the area of support for those involved in CYFS. We have no funding from anywhere, we have never asked CYFS or the MSD for funding, we do however have a donations account number should anyone wish to donate, no one ever does though. Nor have we ever asked anyone for a donation. We are entirely self funded and drive hundred of miles a month for our clients.

    It is our opinion that there is plenty of room for 3 or 4 organisations such as ours to work in New Zealand. We have no issues whatsoever with this other organisation, never have. However, this scrapping has got to cease! PANIC is at a loss as to how to bring a stop to all this rubbish & lies, we would like to enlist your support in some ideas as to how to bring this to a finish.

    I am also happy to discuss this through email should anyone feel the need to contact me.

    On behalf of PANIC (Positive Answers Needed in Crisis)

    Leigh B

    Comment by Leigh B — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 1:46 pm

  27. I would like to add the picture on our site is a family, TOP right hand corner, and the children then ripped away Bottom left. They are an older girl with a TEDDY BEAR AND A WEE TODDLER! The blue and black swirl is the whirl-pool of heartbreak that loving families are put through. It has nothing to do with the wheel of abuse in relationships because that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PANIC SITE AND WHAT IT IS THERE FOR. It is there for families, individuals and caregivers dealing with child youth and family! We leave that domestic stuff to groups such as here!

    Comment by Leigh B — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 3:51 pm

  28. Dear John Duchie and Gwaihir- I think you both need to apologise to Leigh of PANIC. You saw what was in your mind, not what was there. I saw a Tibetan Prayer wheel!
    If you ever visit Arapuni Power Station note the HUGE silver swastikas cast into the generator top covers- there are NO NAZIS there though! The generators were made in ASEA Sweden in the 1930’s and the swastika goes the other way to the Nazi one.
    The feminists see patriachal male abusers in every man, you see the Duluth wheel where it is not.
    An honest mistake- a nice apology now please.

    Comment by John Brett — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 5:29 pm

  29. Thanks John, for pulling together people, rather than letting small miss-communications develop into full scale arguments. If we can understand each other better, then we have a much better chance of achieving all of our goals. Some patience and tolerance will help us get to better working relationships. Thanks again, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 5:35 pm

  30. I was electing silence to avoid an argument! My last post in this thread was 4 April. It contained no reference to the Duluth wheel. The Reference was by John Duchie in reply to a comment by Hans Laven. These were all made around the beginning of April. I intend no further communication on this subject on this site!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 5:56 pm

  31. Thank you John … and thanks also to MurrayBacon.

    Our goals are all the same, sometime I suppose the message gets missed with miscommunications and also with lies. I loathe to be in this situation – however, I will do what is necessary to protect PANIC and its people & clients.

    Gwaihir … There is no intent of an argument. And the date of whoever posted is quite irrelevant.

    The reference I made to the picture on our site was an after thought.

    My main concerns at the moment are included within my first post made at 1.46pm. Which raises my concerns regarding unproven lies about PANIC & its workers, along with my thoughts and concerns about one group denigrating another.

    We at PANIC have had our hand forced to this, to ask this group, to assist PANIC in their endeavours to have the internet harrassment, inuendoes and lies cease.

    Comment by Leigh B — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 6:25 pm

  32. Dear Leigh, thank you for your direct approach and your tolerance and I hope this can assist in mutual assistance. Best regards, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 6:33 pm

  33. Thanks MurrayBacon .. however, it seems one of the members from here is still making snide comments on this other website. I find it sad when adults behave like children.

    I suggest you take a look here .. this is a small snippet of what we face at the moment .. now we are aware how they change things and delete posts when they are caught out, however I have already copied this to my computer .. so changing anything on it will show that someone is changing things huh?

    In fact Ive decided to post here for you what you should see when you go to the link. Please note the comment “I mean the one that joined a men’s group so she could threaten them”¦..”

    I apologise if you feel I am threatening you .. however, this is what we are having to cope with on a daily basis at the moment. There is no intention of threats … we are purely looking for you support.

    Threaded Mode | Linear Mode
    Pregnant woman sent to jail for bashing CYF worker
    Today, 06:16 PM (This post was last modified: Today 06:23 PM by kiwi1960.) Post: #1

    Posts: 828
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Reputation: 0
    Pregnant woman sent to jail for bashing CYF worker
    Pregnant woman sent to jail for bashing CYF worker

    A pregnant Palmerston North woman could have her baby delivered behind bars after being sent to prison for attacking a Child, Youth and Family worker.

    A custody meeting at the CYF office in Palmerston North turned sour when Nadine April Hawea, 37, “lost control” and repeatedly punched a social worker after finding out that her children would not be returned to her. Yesterday, Hawea – who is seven months pregnant – was sentenced in Palmerston North District Court to four months’ imprisonment on a count of assault, to which she had pleaded guilty.

    On February 15, Hawea went to the CYF office on Church St to regain custody of her 6-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter, police said.

    Hawea became angry during a meeting with a social worker and her family lawyer, grabbing the social worker by the collar and repeatedly punching her in the head and body. When the social worker fell to the floor, Hawea continued to punch her. The lawyer had to intervene to stop the attack.

    Hawea then left the room, leaving her victim lying injured on the ground.

    The social worker needed a month off work to recover.

    Lawyer Richard Bedford said Hawea had lost custody of her children because of her addiction to alcohol. He said she was hopeful that she would be able to care for the new baby herself with the help of CYF.

    Judge Gregory Ross said for Hawea to have any success in raising her next child, she needed to be away from all substances and in care.

    Away from court, Child, Youth and Family central regional director Tania Harris said it was an appalling incident.

    “The social worker was shaken and upset by the ordeal,” she said.

    “Our staff play a valuable role in helping to protect vulnerable children. It’s appalling that anyone can be attacked while carrying out their duties.”

    – © Fairfax NZ News


    Any truth to the rumor that Paula Bennet wants a Police Officer to sit in on all CYFS meetings with parents now …just to be safe….

    well…. someone has to protect these social workers… they NEVER cause any harm… all they do… they do it for….loooovvvvveeeee… they do it because they care……


    Maybe they need to learn a new way of dealing with these situations… you know… compassion… tact…. not just blurt it out like the parent is so much pond scum……

    I’d say there is a BIG problem at the Palmerston North office…..

    P.S. I wonder if a so called…social worker….we know actually moonlights there as a CYFS social worker…. kinda looks like her style…

    Today, 06:54 PM (This post was last modified: Today 06:56 PM by Captn Ahab.) Post: #2
    Captn Ahab

    Posts: 37
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Reputation: 0
    RE: Pregnant woman sent to jail for bashing CYF worker
    You mean the one that pretends to help but destroys parents? I have this one recorded!
    Ah me hearties. The Great White Whale. Oi’ll Prime me Harpoon

    Today, 06:57 PM Post: #3

    Posts: 828
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Reputation: 0
    RE: Pregnant woman sent to jail for bashing CYF worker
    I mean the one that joined a men’s group so she could threaten them…..

    Today, 08:43 PM Post: #4
    Captn Ahab

    Posts: 37
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Reputation: 0
    RE: Pregnant woman sent to jail for bashing CYF worker
    Probably the same ones!
    Ah me hearties. The Great White Whale. Oi’ll Prime me Harpoon

    Comment by Leigh B — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 9:34 pm

  34. Please do visit the site whoever is interested. You will see only about 30% 0f what is there! I also draw Leigh B.’s attention to rule 3. You must NOT pass any other member’s posting to other parties outside this forum without obtaining permission by the persons concerned. The exception to this is when the posting is from a public source, but it can only be passed on when ALL identifying details have been removed. Naming children or in any other way identifying them is an absolute No No. For example, quite often members re-post from other sources such as news sites, and there are often times where it would be appropriate to forward this information to others. I believe you may have broken this rule!

    Comment by Gwaihir — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 9:52 pm

  35. There has not been anything posted from this site to any other party outside this forum.

    Care to show me where I have broken that rule?

    Im happy to be chastised if I have broken any rules.

    I havent identified anyone, nor have I named children.

    Comment by Leigh B — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 10:00 pm

  36. Hi Leigh: I commented critically on the idea of a gender-neutral ‘power and control wheel’ but I don’t clearly remember if I saw one. However, Gwaihir said he saw one on the PANIC site and Allan Harvey also wrote as though he had seen it there, referring to it positively and calling it the Gender Neutral Power and Control Wheel and then the Structural Violence Wheel. After first referring to it Gwaihir then posted that “it must have been taken down”. Who knows? It’s not there now and my brief glance at the PANIC Facebook page suggests it’s doing an important job in giving support and voice to those being targeted by the unlimited power of one of NZ’s major machines for wrecking the lives of people and families. Leigh, the things being said that you object to may not really represent that much of a threat. It seems that anyone in a political activity is likely to be subjected to all manner of attacks, lies and libel from unworthy people.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 10:13 pm

  37. Hi Hans, Thank you. In regard to the wheel, Im pretty sure it never was on this site, I know that because I built the site. I heard some years ago of the lack of balance it shows and since then, personally, I have refused to use it. However, moot point 🙂

    In regard to the attacks from the others, you are right, I dont see them as any kind of threat, I do, though see them as unnecessary. They come from a corner of jealousy, I suspect. I was kind of hoping the menz group would be able to discuss this with the men involved, one of whom is a member here, and perhaps be able to ensure they understood the face that they are portraying is one of spite and childishness.

    Hans, we are so busy with cases at the moment, we have just taken on 2 new workers. Our name moves through the communities with good vibes and positive recommendations.

    Im tempted to say onward and upward .. but I wont!



    Comment by Leigh B — Wed 25th July 2012 @ 10:26 pm

  38. had to be a female causing problems ay..and a disregard for her unborn child

    Comment by Ford — Thu 26th July 2012 @ 2:50 pm

  39. You people all need some serious therapy. Peace out. PS. Ford, you really need to get laid, mate.

    Comment by Wow — Thu 26th July 2012 @ 7:48 pm

  40. nice as getting laid is i like the quiet peaceful life..i dont need the dramas

    Comment by Ford — Thu 26th July 2012 @ 9:23 pm

  41. Life is peaceful, No Dramas, no lies or stiring. Lets keep it that way.

    Comment by Gwaihir — Fri 27th July 2012 @ 12:03 am

  42. Gwaihir – No stirring! – Are you throwing me out? MurrayBacon – deranged axe murderer….

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 27th July 2012 @ 9:00 am

  43. Absolutely Not Murray. I hold myself responsible to rising to the bait. I apologise to the rest of the group and I see John as removed most of the posts I requested him to.

    Thank you John! Le us go onward and upwards Murray with oour normal style of robust debate!

    BTW I am fairly certain where that Duluth wheel was. It was on the original PANIC (Parents against Negative Interventions by CYF) and would have been taken down by its ISP when the new organisation took over the URL.

    Comment by Gwaihir — Fri 27th July 2012 @ 9:28 am

  44. To Clarify confusion, The Parents Against Negative intervention by CYF was founded around 1992 and grew from a Palmerston North Organisation ACROS being founded by the now deceased John Tonson. At the time of John’d death members scattered but many are now on a site We need no public funding having an Angel benefactor. Hence we haven’t even a Donations button. I hope this clarifies the situation. We would like to work closely with others But ………..

    Comment by Gwaihir — Fri 27th July 2012 @ 9:39 am

  45. I have been asked by Angie Rogerson to post this here,

    Her 2 year old grand daughter tragically passed away last night. We are not meant to bury our grandchildren.

    She has asked me to ask those involved in the CYFStalk site, out of compassion, to desist their innuendoes etc for a week to allow the family to gather and mourn their loss, without the stress of needing to concern themselves about other issues.

    Thank you Leigh

    Comment by Leigh B — Sun 29th July 2012 @ 9:02 am

  46. Leigh, Please pass On my deepest condolences. I do feel sorry for ALL of Angela and her family. Please forward.

    Comment by Alastair — Sun 29th July 2012 @ 9:07 am

  47. I will post your request on CYFS talk.

    Comment by Gwahir — Sun 29th July 2012 @ 9:10 am

  48. I forgot .. she asked me to say the childs name was Sophie

    Comment by Leigh B — Sun 29th July 2012 @ 9:10 am

  49. Getting back to “pets as pawns”, do you remember Mary Richardson Kennedy who deliberately ran over the pet dog in USA, she was the ex wife of Bobby Kennedy, in order to get attention

    Comment by billy whizz — Sun 29th July 2012 @ 9:18 pm

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