- promoting a clearer understanding of men's experience -
Hi There,
I have a review scheduled in mid February and am not sure what this process is for? what can i expect? what do
i need to do to prepare? A LFC has been appointed but i dont know who? and as yet i have had no contact from them
about what happens next? I do not understand the process so if anyone can help i would be greatful
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A registrars review is to make sure that the process is moving forward. The key is to be proactive. What you should do is going to be dependent on where your case is at. Usually I’d get the guys to put in their memorandum something like ‘I’m requesting that matters be set down for a mediation conference’ (if you haven’t had one yet) or a hearing (if you’ve had a mediation conference).
As a matter of course I’d usually get the guys to attach their parenting plan as a way of re-inforcing what they are working towards achieveing.
Every case is a little bit different and as Allan and others say they key is to get some one to one help from someone who knows the ropes and you can talk with.
The risk from asking for specific advice from a site like this is you will get too many different views. Alan works with guys in the Wellington region I do the same in Hawkes Bay.
Comment by Ken — Tue 11th February 2014 @ 7:55 am
Thanks Ken,
Is there anyone on the Auckland region? We have had no mediation yet or a hearing so early days?
Thanks in advance
Comment by V.O.F.M — Tue 11th February 2014 @ 9:01 am
You have a few men below working with fathers in Auckland doing the same as Ken and Allan.
Father and Child Trust
http://fatherandchild.org.nz/auckland/
Bredon: Phone: 525 1690 Mobile: 021892980
Email:[email protected]
Man Alive (ask for Togia – he is their men’s social worker and will direct you to the right person in their service)
http://manalive.org.nz/contact.htm
0800 TANE ORA (0800 826 367)
Jim Bagnall:
(09) 818 7437(forgot cell phone no)There will be a list of services on this site.
Comment by Julie — Tue 11th February 2014 @ 12:02 pm
Mediation will do you no good, nor will a lawyer for child, nor will the family courts. I know you won’t believe or take this in at this point, but I feel it is my duty to warn people.
Comment by Scott B — Tue 11th February 2014 @ 1:43 pm
I got the judges notes from the parenting order i filed and it notes jurisdiction met, threshold not met, what does this mean?
Comment by V.O.F.M — Tue 11th February 2014 @ 2:28 pm
Scott B, not helpful at all to VOFM who is looking for advice and support.
It is possible to have a good outcome in family court, yes, its challenging to say the least but it can be done.
There are free community based lawyers in most areas, at community law offices. Or just phone some up, if youre representing yourself, its useful to find out as much as you can.
Comment by Mens Movement — Wed 12th February 2014 @ 3:35 pm
I disagree. I am being helpful, very helpful and I know others here will agree with what I have said. I am not going to patronise V.O.F.M and tell him it’s all going to be ok, when it is not. The family court does enough lying for everyone, someone has to tell the truth. I could have saved thousands if someone had told me everything I now know.
Comment by Scott B — Wed 12th February 2014 @ 6:31 pm
Actually I will add that you will also get no help from CYFS, the police, lawyers, the IRD, Winz, Citizens Advice Bureau, the media and of course no help from the Human Rights Commission.
Comment by Scott B — Wed 12th February 2014 @ 7:08 pm
There are people in the family court system who have helped me.There are others who have opposed me.
I still have a great relationship with my child.
Persevere VOFM and dont listen to Scott, a positive attitude is vital to your success, as there will be challenges.
A defeatist victim orientated attitude like Scott’s will mean the battle is over before you start.
You can do it, hang in there for your child, even if you suffer, it can work out in the long run for sure. It has for me and my child.
And, take time out from the battles and practice self care, thats important, if youre going to last the distance. You will need to eat well, do relaxing activities, take vitamin b (for stress) etc.
It can be done. As Sun Tzu said: Every battle is won or lost before it is ever fought. So hang in there no matter how tough it is. And get as much support as you can, from friends, counsellers, family, and anyone who will empower and support you.
Comment by Mens Movement — Wed 12th February 2014 @ 11:27 pm
Ty guys, comments very mixed here and still not
sure what I should be doing I will need help from
a support group and counselling etc I am trying to
maintain a positive outlook
Comment by v.o.f.m — Thu 13th February 2014 @ 12:26 pm
10 Keep up the positive attitude, you will need it.
Comment by Scott B — Thu 13th February 2014 @ 2:02 pm
VOFM
jurisdiction met, threshold not met
Means you are in the right place (yes the family court has jurisdiction to hear and decide these matters). and Threshold no met means someone applied without notice to the other party (behind their back) and the Court decided that it was not a serious matter and there was no proved harm would come about if they put the matter on notice and said it should be handled in the normal way.
AS you say comments here are very mixed. Some people like Scott B are scarred by the process and so hurt they need to be negative to everyone else. Unfortunately some people never get over it and their venom poisons both themselves and their children. Others find that while it is not an easy system to understand it can be done and good results can be achieved. That is my experience.
However I strongly suggest this forum is NOT the place to ask for help as it is a public forum. MENZ posting can and do appear in Court to discredit litigants and McKenzie Friends. I have often had my postings appear as an example of what a nutter, radical, activist and militant I am.
I would suggest you are better e-mailing or phoning someone who can advise you outside of this forum. Ken, myself, Greg, Murray, Brendon etc all have pretty good track record in assisting. It also helps if you share your paperwork with others as many people don’t appreciate the subtlety of much of this court stuff. Lawyers try to make it seem a minefield, McKenzie Friends or other experienced support can help you pick your way through the process safely and successfully. Take care, sometimes the journey is long and rocky.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Thu 13th February 2014 @ 2:27 pm
Allan. Please refrain from making assumptions about me. You don’t know me and therefore have no idea what kind of person I am. I would like an apology please.
Also I am not being negative, I am being realistic and truthful. If what I was saying was incorrect then this website wouldn’t exist.
Comment by Scott B — Thu 13th February 2014 @ 10:53 pm
Scott
I am in the Family Court most weeks. I deal with about 10 cases a week.
You have a case study of one. Your experience is not the same as I have found.
I accept it is not easy but I completely stand by my comments that the negativity you express is not a universal situation as you claim.
You are correct I don’t know you, if you want to contact me and seek assistance my details are on this site.
I am sorry you feel so hurt by your own experience but I like a quote from Nelson Mandela.
“The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling but in rising every time we fall.”
Your comments to others suggesting they not even attempt to stand up in the Court environment don’t help those who wish to remain involved in the children’s lives.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 7:02 am
my 10 cents,
The family court is so screwed up and the more story’s I hear the more I realise that this is exactly how things are for every one, and only the small minority of guys get even close to what they want.
If you are okay to wait years for “jump through flaming hoops” and be treated like a rapist at the every beck and call and whim of your ex” then be civil and join the line.
If you are getting the idea that there are seriously a bunch of upset / pissed off / used / completely f******* over by a biased system that will send you broke and will cause you to go nuts in the process as well, up to you……
Alan is a nice guy and I have spoken to him a while ago, and think his advice is more work with the system and probably better in the long run , I personally am a more go fk your self you stupid system lets pull it down after all we (the working man)pay for it.
P.S mandala spent 27 years in jail and was a confirmed terrorist. (what a douche) ! and this is all about being able to speak freely, with out the stupid threat of family court ?
I personally find it hard that anyone could be happy about this happening and find it hard to bull to myself, to long have people remained quiet after decades of rubbish with males being alienated and bleed like sperm donors and wallet payers with out any care in the world.
its the courts that decide every single bit of your interaction unless you can work it out civilly, with your ex.
If you do anything in court you are pushing shite uphill in my opinion, good luck I hope it works out for you and am interested to hear how you get on,
Comment by Dominic Dilligaf — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 8:47 am
Having a McKenzie friend is a window to the outside world – it has been my experience that this often moderates the behaviour of the court – and being in court so often Allan I can understand the position you adopt here, it wouldn’t be helpful to your cause if you were expressing negative opinions about the court.
This doesn’t mean that a McKenzie friend’s experience of the court is more valid than an idividual that has experienced a bad outcome in a single case – they are many times more likely to have had a bad experience.
Being dismissive of these situations as ‘hurt people’ is dismissive of real experiences and unethical behaviour in a secret court.
If there are bad experiences we need to hear about this – that way this site stands to be equally capable of moderating some of the negative impacts of the court.
The only way for this to happen is to encourage people to talk, not necessarily discuss every detail of their case, but certainly the experience and the people they have had to deal with and the impact on their lives.
Even a win in court, McKenzie friend or not, there is no guarantee that a father will remain in a child’s life – it is only the first step of what can be a long a difficult journey afterwards, that in many cases is agravated by the court.
Shutting down such comments is not helpful – with the few McKenzie friends that operate around the country there would still be far more negative outcomes even if only a few do bother to comment here – at least this is a window to the black hole.
Comment by Downunder — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 8:47 am
My 5 cents worth
Femily caught is a joke and should be treated as such. Its a circus and the fool on the bench is the chief clown.
If you want to take it seriously then Allan is right, give it a go, jump through the hoops and hope for the best and if you achieve the outcome you desired then big ups to you. Well done. Please let us know of any victories big or small as they appear far and few between for males in this institution. But once again I agree with Allan dont discuss the finer points here as its t0o public and femily caught doesnt like publicity.
But Scotts summation
Mediation will do you no good, nor will a lawyer for child, nor will the family courts. I know you won’t believe or take this in at this point, but I feel it is my duty to warn people.
I agree that this is also right. Mediation in femily caught appears more along the lines of getting the male to agree with all the females desires from my individual case study. Lawyer for Child…. dont get me started….. once you realise this is AKA mummy’s back up lawyer and the main requirements for this position are to be completely incompetant and have a noted apathy for child welfare then , yep dont expect much help there.
Femily caught wont do you any good. Winning there if possible (and it does happen) is a hollow victory as you still have to live in the real world once you leave the circus.
I wish it had been explained to me beforehand what a joke femily caught was and not to get my hopes up before I went into the big top to have all my illusions shattered and sense of justice crapped on. And this from a guy who frequently had the chief clown agreeing with him and saying he was right as he still bent over backwards to appease the mum.
I dont think its negative to be honest about how you found femily caught. Best of luck to anyone involved with it. But once again my advice don’t take it too seriously as although the issues are serious the caught is a circus.
Mits
Comment by Mits — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 9:24 am
Mits, Dominic and Downunder,
I don’t disagree with what you say.
However if someone wants to try the “flaming hoops” strategy of the Family Court then get some support and give it a go. It does mean that some kowtowing to the system.
I certainly do not mean to be dismissive of the real feelings of hurt that many have from their Family Court experiences. Very few who have ventured into that forum get away without some emotional scars.
Mits may like to know that the last time I was quoted in Family Court, in an attempt to get my unlawyerd butt chucked out of Court, I was saying “many men refer to Lawyer for Child as second lawyer for mother”. It was a quote of mine from a Radio New Zealand interview of last year but now I can tell the lawyer concerned these were Mits words and not my own :-).
Comment by Allan Harvey — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 9:52 am
Hey fellas, time will tell for me.
I will take heed of your warnings Allan about posting
etc, I would like to know one thing is a Mckenzie friend
to be utilised along with a lawyer or instead of?
Comment by V.O.F.M — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 10:08 am
If you don’t go to court the only way changes will happen are if your ex changes her mind. In ten years of being involved in cases I’ve yet to come across one where that was the case without action being taken.
Yes you can go to court spend $$$$ wait years and achieve nothing.
But you an also go to court and get a clear and effective parenting order for not much $$ in a reasonable period of time – from 7 weeks to 6 months are average time durations of cases here in HB.
It’s about a couple of clear points and above all ‘ fight the case not the system’.
Just looking back at cases I’ve seen guys about over the last few years (I’m not nearly as prolific as Allan). 30 guys. 2 don’t see their children. The rest do. Of those 28, 22 got shared care (at least 6 days every fortnight) the other 6 got a care plan close to what they were wanting. The majority of those guys self represented with mckenzie friend assistance.
Five years ago I had a call from a desperate guy who had just been served with a protection order. Using the system (not being used by it) and with a bit of assistance he was in a mediation / hearing (it was a judge led mediation and was both) in seven weeks. He came out of that hearing with a week about parenting order.
Yes the family court won’t always work the way it should. But other than that elusive change of mind from the mother it is the only way to get things changed. Once again VOFM get one on one support and don’t publish your case details on here.
Comment by Ken — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 10:11 am
If you use a mckenzie firned you self represent and are allowed a mckenzie friend to assist you. You don’t have a lawyer (you are your own lawyer) the mcK friend cannot speak for you as a lawyer would.
In my view the vast majority of guys are better off self representing. As Allan said to me many years ago …”it’s not rocket science, it’s a book’.
The new system coming in a ouple of months means that cases will start off without lawyers – but you will be allowed support. A McK friend will count as that support.
Comment by Ken — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 10:56 am
VOFM post
Normally it is Lawyer or McKenzie Friend for a self represented litigant.
I have been asked by Lawyer for Child to help some guys who either were refusing to engage with Court process or were doing it so badly because they didn’t know the accepted procedures. Lawyer for Child asked me to help as they felt their clients (the kids) desperately needed dads input in their lives.
On two occasions I have been accepted as a support person in Court alongside a represented party. This is unusual (except in domestic violence cases where the act allows for such a role). In those case I was able to spend time supporting the guy while he lawyer did the legal stuff. I suppose that is an example of lawyer and McKenzie Friend but in those cases I wasn’t McKenzie Friend rather just a support person for a litigant.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 11:28 am
Allan again you attack me and lie about me. Then you expect me to ask you for help???? Again you know nothing about me or what I know.
Comment by Scott B — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 1:40 pm
17 you are correct about the lawyer for child being the mothers back up lawyer.
Comment by Scott B — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 1:46 pm
Hi V.O.F.M all above are correct in each of their comments about the family court. If you are in Auckland I would recommend you having a chat with Brendon (details in post #3). It will cost you nothing to have a chat with him. He and his team could be very important for the on going support you may find you need within the family court system. The court system itself is tough and very unpleasant, however with the right support/information/people you can get through. Good luck.
Comment by roo — Fri 14th February 2014 @ 5:47 pm
Hi, I’m running out of money! and will be needing to represent myself soon for the next step….psychologist report. Can anyone suggest a McKenzie friend in Wellington who I can talk with.
Comment by hrlewis1974 — Mon 3rd March 2014 @ 8:41 am
I offer support in Wellington.
[email protected]
Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 3rd March 2014 @ 2:45 pm
Hi
Does any one know if the ex could be taken to court for misues of child support money intended for the child.. i.e large portion of it used to pay for buying a house for someone else (child not living in it and childs name not on the title) and paying of her personal loan?
Comment by kiranjiharr — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 5:18 pm
28 I doubt it. The powers that be would never allow it, as it would open the flood gates.
Comment by Scott B — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 5:36 pm
#28
There can be no misuses of Child Support. If she drinks it, smokes it, uses it for gigolos no one is even slightly interested.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 5:38 pm
I strongly recommend nobody to contact Allan Harvey. He makes money out of us, nothing else. Beware this man!
Comment by siren976 — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 7:09 pm
I strongly recommend go it alone! Saves money (his); nothing else. Beware!
By the way, how many men have tackled FC on their own (no lawyers), saved money m(theirs), and won (or even achieved a satisfactory outcome) in FC?
Comment by OMG you're &*^(%$ — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 7:14 pm
@32
I have helped a couple guys here in OZ do that in NZ and achieve contact with their kids (satisfactory me thinks). The judges do not like it but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t. That way you can push your Agenda properly without your lawyer kissing your ex’s lawyers butt and bending over for them.
Comment by kiranjiharr — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 8:08 pm
@ 29-32.. so we saying it hasn’t been done so we don’t know?
evidence exists received from a father where the mother has admitted to it all in writing …any constructive thoughts on possible ways to do this?
or anyone willing to help me help this father out fight for what is right?
whats the worst could happen? so he would fail- in that case at least its in the records providing some basis of help the next person??
Best case scenario; sets precedent for accountability..that would be a good thing right guys??
Comment by kiranjiharr — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 8:14 pm
atm we only have IRD saying they not interested.. what about courts?
Comment by kiranjiharr — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 8:14 pm
after all it does violate the child support act and care of child act by depriving the child of finanacial support from the father..
Comment by kiranjiharr — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 8:15 pm
Siren, I am amused. Explain how I make money from helping people as a volunteer?
Comment by Allan Harvey — Wed 5th March 2014 @ 10:22 pm
Although a lot quieter as I approach my dotage, one thing I have learnt is that allan is very approachable and respected.
Comment by Alastair — Thu 6th March 2014 @ 12:10 am
Siren, you’re very wrong about Allan Harvey. There are hundreds of children around New Zealand especially in the Wellington and Tauranga areas that have full relationships with their fathers thanks to the help support and advice that Allan has given them. I for one have benefited from Allan’s extensive knowledge and experience and mentoring which enabled me to support other guys in similar situations.
Comment by Ken — Thu 6th March 2014 @ 5:14 am
I also have learned a lot from Allan’s steady, stable approach to solving problems, real and created in familycaught$. When I come across new situations, his wide experience is invaluable to be able to access.
It is easy to criticise, especially from behind a non identifying name. Personally, I don’t spend money on petrol when dealing with people. Jim and Allan ar far more generous than I in this respect. Too many people take advantage of such generosity and too few pass on help that they have received, to those who follow on.
Where do you stand on these issues, siren976?
In the absence of sufficient information, you might just be a non-working legal worker, touting for business, stripping assets from poor working families yourself?
Comment by MurrayBacon — Thu 6th March 2014 @ 6:53 am
It’s really nice to see moderate men being acknowledged in leadership and that the attacks from men like siren are few and far between these days.
Allan sure is….. many, many positives words. 🙂
Allan has always been open to other opinions and ways of describing men’s predicament and how they see the situation. I personally think Allan’s growth is remarkable and he’s a terrific role model,IMO and I don’t mean for other men. I mean for me as a community person.
Gosh, wouldn’t it be nice if fighting the system was in fact mainstream and you got paid, lol
Comment by Julie — Thu 6th March 2014 @ 9:50 am
If it were Facebook I would “Like” That post Julie. Full support and encouragement to both of you.
Sent from my iPhone
Comment by Alastair — Thu 6th March 2014 @ 12:34 pm
As Julie has remarked, there has been a really nice lift in the tone of this website. I am sure that it is mainly due to rearrangements of the non-psychotic and anti-prescription drugs that we are all being forced to take, me anyway. Maybe there is less fluoride being put into the water, or am I getting mixed up with bromides? And there is less GST on sunlight since the Official Discount Rate was increased.
Not just tone, but the creativity and diversity in posts and comments is really good.
Another big factor that has lifted the tone, is that Bevan Berg has stopped commenting!!!!! Maybe I am just getting mixed up again, this website doesn’t need a policeman.
Whatever the real reasons, Thanks to all!!!! MurrayBacon – deranged axe murder.
Comment by MurrayBacon — Thu 6th March 2014 @ 2:59 pm
truth about feminism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzcMATRGmE&feature=player_embedded
Comment by Greg — Fri 14th March 2014 @ 9:28 am
Thanks for that Greg. I believe those Ladies among us (Julie etc.) will relate to it. The comment about treating Ladies as a princess is so true but when it comes back in your face, especially twisted out of all recognition, how can anybody hold respect. – And emphatically that comment is made in general, NOT directed at any individuals.
Again thank you Greg. I have taken the liberty of pasting to the White Ribbon Debate Facebook page.
Comment by Alastair — Fri 14th March 2014 @ 11:20 am
I usually visit this site for good advice on my parenting matter, I have yet to ask questions because I can most times find the answer on a thread here.
VOFM dont pay attention to the remarks on here about the family court being a waste of time. I can read the anger in these posts so I am pretty sure the lawyers can read their anger face to face. Yes some people have had trouble with the system and yes there is a certain amount of bias BUT and its a big one….if you have done nothing wrong and there is no concern for the child’s welfare while in your care then you will be sweet mate. The judges see through all the crap of “adult issues” which mothers LOVE to exaggerate/accuse or fabricate. At the end of the day, stick to your guns, be reasonable and steer well clear of the other crap.
A big thank you to the menz moderators for unknowingly providing me with the facilities to carry on.
I have just successfully defended a variation of contact order and have had my proposal upheld. The judge and her lawyers saw right through her unfounded accusations of violence and numerous adult issues and at one point even had a little chuckle.
Years of money spent until I am now broke was only worth it because my child is my only concern. At what price? to have my son. Lawyers will always charge top dollar, thats what they do, just find a lawyer you like, one that will provide you with fixed prices and payment options and REAL sound advice.
I did a lot myself. I organised the counselling and mediation via email directly with the firms appointed and attended the registrars reviews because lets face it, $350 just to say a few words is a killer. I attended mediation alone and stuck to my guns and the issues. I stayed positive and while sometimes I felt as though I was outnumbered by judging eyes I never strayed from the point being my child.
I used my lawyer for submissions to the court and the paper work (I didnt have time for that) and to be honest I was s@#t scared the whole time. But I got there. And still paid too much money for example, the lawyer charged me for RECEIVING an email from me lol
Its a LOOOONG tiring journey but if you stay positive, put the anger to the side, you will get there, although it is still a bias system it is slowly making improvements, you can now also view family court judgements on the courts website as they are trying to become a little more transparent. Its worth a look and definitely gave me a boost when coming across similar situations and seeing that there are some positive stories.
Anyway thanks guys and good luck
Comment by Mike — Mon 17th March 2014 @ 10:05 pm
Well done Mike,
Focusing on your children certainly is the key.
Yes the system claims some transparency but it is like looking through a mudy water. Yes the water particles may be able to be seen through but the chances of getting any vision probably end at seeing your own hand held 30cm from your face.
There is little openess in the Family Court. There are very few cases on the Family Court’s website and who decides and how these few selected cases are decided is surely a political decision. Window dressing I think is the term.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Tue 18th March 2014 @ 5:01 am
Thanks Allan,
I do know what you are saying though and yes there are far too many things wrong about the system but it did keep my hopes up some especially the precedents found on this site from the courts. I was able to relate more to someone else in similar situations than to feel like I was alone. Dont get me wrong however, my attitude and success has only come from years and years of experience with a bitter clingy ex who only wanted to restrict access to my wife at the expense of me and my child. This has happened multiple times over the years and it has taken all this time for me to work within the system (unhappily) instead of on the outskirts.
Actually I would like a little advice if you could. I am considering seeking costs, the ex has legal aid however but I am aware that under certain circumstance this is possible. Are there any instances you know where men have been successful with seeking costs against the legal aid applicant. I was told that our case was a complete and utter waste of court time and the question was directed to my ex “why has this come to court, these are adult issues” followed by an order being awarded in my favor. Sorry I am trying not to provide to many details as you have stated many times.
Thanks again
Comment by Mike — Wed 19th March 2014 @ 3:48 pm
yes I have seen costs awarded against a legally aided litigant.
Not easy but if they have blatantly gone against sensible advice this can happen.
In the one case I have personally been successful father collects $20 a week from her benefit towards his costs. His costs were many tens of thousands of dollars and he got $2,000 awarded to him so it will take years to clear her debt.
Comment by Allan Harvey — Wed 19th March 2014 @ 8:46 pm