MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Churches and the Men’s Movement

Filed under: General — Ministry of Men's Affairs @ 5:49 pm Sun 17th May 2015

There have always been some areas of agreement between religious followers and the men’s movement. However, this overlap is probably quite small. When it comes to particular issues, the churches seldom acknowledge men’s issues or even the impact on families and societies of male denigration. Churches still tend to favour anachronistic discriminatory attitudes toward women, something men’s movement people seldom agree with.

Here’s an example. A pamphlet from the Baptists was given to school students (to study in comparison with other points of view) and tells them that couples in de facto relationships who have children involve a father who is ‘such a coward he can’t even ask for her to be his wife’ and that the mother is ‘nothing more than a cheap prostitute who allows herself to be used for his sexual gratification in exchange for what seems to be a stable and secure home life’.

Such attitudes ignore the foolishness of marriage for men under existing laws that encourage false allegations against men as well as major exploitation of them even after they have been ditched, lied about and deprived of full relationships with their children (because it’s economically advantageous for women to have primary care of them after family anhialation).

The argument that women in de facto relationships are cheap prostitutes and therefore should be married is nonsensical, because one could argue that women who marry are nothing more than expensive prostitutes in return for the same stable and secure home life, not to mention the share, after he’s discarded, of the man’s previously earned assets plus ongoing money from him without ongoing reciprocal obligation. Nice work if you can get it!

To be credible and effective the men’s movement needs to be clear about the small areas of overlap between its mission and that of religious groups, and also clear about distancing itself from the many differences and incompatible religious aims. Religious zealots when they do become involved in the men’s movement seem to do it more harm than good. The men’s movement could also demand that churches start recognizing the exploitation and abuse of men under feminist laws.


  1. In the US, marriage has been dying for decades and will eventually level off with only about 20% getting married – with air tight prenups. Why? The sexual revolution, women’s empowerment, “destroy the patriarchy”, the VAWA, ‘Yes Means Yes’, no-fault divorce, Title IX, affirmative action, and the majority of federal and state funding going towards women’s health, education and welfare. Many countries now have mandatory forced marriage after X number of months of cohabitation – stating that the forced marriage of men makes break ups more financially fair to women – when in fact it’s just one more forced redistribution of wealth and power scam from men to women.

    Here’s an excellent article on the death of marriage (written from a MGTOW/dedicated bachelor perspective). If you want to read the real marriage obituary – this is it. I’ve never recommended an article from AVFM until I read this one:

    Comment by Terry — Sun 17th May 2015 @ 11:35 pm

  2. Another good talking point from MOMA. Where does the Church stand today?

    MOMA, I don’t think the brochure was approved by Baptist HQ. Probably just some older man having a rally on a past era. A man who will soon become history himself.

    In the past the Church has stuck to the concept of ‘Man is above woman’ but in today’s world that itself is a sin.

    Yes, the Church itself has changed from what it once was. The Church was once steadfast in its rules has for the most part relented to what this new generation of customers requires.

    For example 40 years ago”¦”¦

    Who would of thought a female minister would be allowed by the Church?

    Who would of thought a gay minister would be allowed by the Church?

    Who would of thought not being married is acceptable by the Church? You would have been visited by
    the minister if you were living in sin. The community would openly frown upon it.

    The Church knows all these past standards are bad for business and like any firm, they adapt or else.

    With the many versions of the Bible going way back to King James to the modern ones today. I count 52 of them here and that’s just the English ones.

    In my humble opinion there will be a feminist version of the bible. Hummmm just found info on one here In fact over time I suspect feminist will say Jesus was really not a man or a woman.

    I note an extract from the link I just posted”¦”¦”¦.

    By removing the word ‘men’ in 2195 places, and by removing the word ‘man’ in 2549 places, the NIV 2011 translators have misrepresented God’s Word. The true Word of God is not gender-inclusive and does not fit man’s sinful agendas. As Americans become more wicked and perverse, so does the demand for a Bible that is equality-conscious, gender-inclusive, homosexual-friendly, and a bunch of horse-dung.

    Turning God into gender neutral is a bit much for older people to accept. But as time moves forward, the concept will become widely accepted and be the norm.

    I suspect a female Pope is probably already born and will work her way up to CEO (Pope.

    For me its a step off the deep end. I just can’t wait to think of what they will think of next.

    Thank you for the POST MOMA.

    Comment by Lukenz — Mon 18th May 2015 @ 12:08 am

  3. There are a lot of issues here.
    “There have always been some areas of agreement between religious followers and the men’s movement. However, this overlap is probably quite small.”
    I don’t know if it is small. However I agree that they don’t overlap in all things. This is understandable and fine. For example, MGTOW is not what the Church is about.
    What concerns me is the disconnect between Fathers issues and the Church. Sometimes I have heard about some churches not supporting separated fathers. In my view this reflects very poorly on those Churches.
    In my limited understanding of these matters, the Catholic Church appears to be more supportive of fathers. At least that is my personal impression.

    With regards to there being a female Pope. I think you overestimate the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is notoriously slow to change. Pope Francis appears to be driving hard to bring changes to the church but I don’t see many if any of his initiatives having overcome the conservative elements in the Church so far. This is the first time on 1,000 years there has been a non European Pope and he has come from one of the most European country outside Europe. Even though most catholics are outside Europe, most cardinals are European and Italy still dominates. We could go on and on about the slow pace of change in the Catholic Church. So no I don’t see that the Catholic church getting a female pope within a generation and I doubt it will ever occur.

    I think the best approach to gain more support within all religions is to appeal to their compassion. Rather than to take an adversarial approach. It would be better to frame Men’s needs in terms of how that conforms with religious ideology.

    For example, if the religion wants couples to be married then they need to pressure governments and public opinion to stop making marriage such a bad deal for men.

    In other words, make it in the religion’s interests to support these goals of equality.

    Comment by Vman — Mon 18th May 2015 @ 1:55 pm

  4. Hmmmnnn, in my opinion, the church – or some of it’s weak remnants, are surely the last bastions of fatherhood, not just fathers as leaders of families, but as involved members of the family at all…

    Most churches, in their evolution over thousands of years, almost exclusively insisted on marriage as between a man and a woman, or in a few doctrines, as many women as a man could satisfy and support.

    This served man well, he multiplied and women were mainly protected and generally respected, the catholics elevated one good motherly figure, in Mary, so high as to make it seem, she was indeed wife of god.

    Some religions used their own interpretations of the scriptures to excuse unfair assumptions, slavery and other prejudices which we all agree, largely seem ignorant in the modern post feminist world.

    One interpretation which was consistent among all religions up until recently, was the idea of sex or in pre contraception days, no kids before marriage, was vital for everybody’s survival.

    Males and their invaluable contribution to evolution was highlighted in on MSN: Why do men exist? Scientific study offers an explanation

    The key to what was common among religions and cultures includes child abuse rates, before welfare states, almost all religions and cultures had similar rates of child abuse, including sexual abuse, at 6% of girls and 3% of boys.

    This was, I figure down to the lack of single parent households, now we have abuse figures way over this. Exposure to poverty, neglect or early teen pregnancy are all closely linked to the absence of dads.

    Children’s resilience, social skills, development, academic outcomes and overall happiness are all in decline, just like involved fathers.

    Churches and governments have adjusted to accommodate all forms and versions of family, DPBs could be said to fund only the families that do not have fathers, then they don’t fund fathers’ health either.

    Of course, a woman’s right to contraception is fine, males have lost the onus of responsible impregnation, so women have the rights to initiate sex, but then they need to be able to claim rape immediately afterward, plus they reserve the right to abortions on demand.

    Babies are almost never offered for adoption any more, parents who struggle to conceive naturally have to turn to expensive IVF or artificial means, and solo parenting is made cool mainly to eliminate any stigma – the hurt or exclusion of single parents from society, which is fine, as the stigma may affect the children too, but churches and governments end up incentivising the least safe way to raise children.

    So we know that churches still sort of value fathers, or families with fathers, they run good fathers weekends like Promise Keepers, a few of them insist that dads have specific destinies to adhere to. The Salvation Army is agency of last resort for many men, including a few dads. But alongside feminist, lesbian or gay ministers, fathers fell awkward, outdated and hardly needed, let alone respected.

    All I know is that up until around 50 years ago, most cultures, religions and communities had some things pretty close to right. Now, in countries like NZ, we have 40-60 % of pregnancies unplanned, surprised dads, delinquent children and rampant child abuse, young and struggling mothers, lots of suicidal men and boys.

    The churches that value fathers deserve a medal. Community groups that value fathers and their support workers, who probably suffer burn out and exhaustion after helping hundreds of abandoned dads, deserve more.

    Comment by realkiwi — Tue 19th May 2015 @ 10:32 pm

  5. Thanks for sharing.
    While parents are at work, the children are being worked over.


    At the bottom of the NZHerald article is a link to the article below.

    Gender nonconforming children: Coming to terms with sexual identity

    Comment by julie — Fri 26th June 2015 @ 1:07 am

  6. I wonder if the ‘American-based Bible Baptist Publications‘ considers married women expensive whores?

    Psst, the 2nd article in my comment is a church also. Sooo different.

    Comment by julie — Fri 26th June 2015 @ 1:20 am

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