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NZ Men Fed up with the NZ Family Court

Filed under: General — Ministry of Men's Affairs @ 10:24 pm Wed 8th July 2015

This Facebook page is humming! Well done Dominic. It reflects and is building a fast rising wave. We’re in for some interesting times.

65 Responses to “NZ Men Fed up with the NZ Family Court”

  1. Paul says:

    What’s new! Fed up.

    Are there legal aid family court parasites out there?

    Who are they?

  2. Downunder says:

    UOF used to publish lists like worst judges, biggest legal aid leeches.

    Could start that again.

  3. Paul says:

    We do remember BOTHER, the peaceful protest group who went to various places. This did raise the profile and contribute to much trumpeted changes in the system. The court process and associated leeches want to hang on to their traditional gravey train and are desperate to do so.

    A change is made, often to no material or apparent improvement other than to appease the masses. Several years go by and another change is made. This has happened so often that we are back to where we were 20 years ago with the temporary protection order dished out like the non molestation order was. The father alienation tool of yesteryear revisited.

    Cost about $ 6,000 to defend one.
    So here is the logic.
    $ 6,000 to defend the temporary protection order.
    Child Support for 18 years.
    Constant appearances in the Family Court
    Thousands of dollars, perhaps tens of thousands.

    Read “Court of Injustice” by Lauren Quaintance (north and south) its on line.
    Lauren’s parents separated, has a great dad and is close to him.
    There is nothing new about this and it has been going on for decades this article was written about 15 years ago.

    Actions speak louder than words, consider the actions of the system gravey train we have. Based on actions it must be clear that Fathers are not sufficiently wanted or valued in this country.

    We are pissing in the wind and pissing money away.

    Put your name down with Male Mentors or Big Buddy.
    Go to Australia for $150.00
    Wait until your kid turns into a head case youth that the mother can’t deal with and go and be a Male Mentor, Big Buddy to your own kid.

    This is the best and most cost effective advise fathers in this country can get.

    We must forget the Family Court process. We can’t blame the court and many judges are concerned for the child first rather than the mother. llook to the Law Society lack of independence, the Juducial conduct commissionar, The Legal Services Agency (legal aid gravey train) Counsel for child (often another unchecked gravey train lawyer)

    Judges were lawyers before they became judges, there are many people in the process who don’t want change and have resisted it for 30 years.

    Leave, $ 150.00, Big Buddy, Male Mentor try to help your child later.

  4. joseph says:

    #Paul
    All up my case, 34 mediation conferences, court appearence, and Lawyer
    estimated at $250,000 final conference I sacked my Lawyer,
    Put in a complaint to the register advised by you got it a new Lawyer “a woman”
    Where the Mother was finally ordered to appear by a judge.
    34 conferences where the Exs lawyer”a woman” appeared on her behave,
    nearly 4 years without any contact with my children,other than CYF supporting phone and mail contact.
    Mean while my Lawyer had also activated an order where by the Mother could not move out of the region.Useless as the Mother supported by social welfare moved any way.
    First weekend visitation granted the children where not there…back to court.
    Tried to find out through their School, and Social services with a warrant and was blackedball with the “privacy act”.Even as the Father with a warrant I was not entitled too know where they were.
    The over all cost that New Zealand paid through tax regarding cost of supporting the Mother through all her efforts to deny access would be well over a half a million dollars.
    This was unrecoverable amount of money charged through the systerm and this was in the 1990s.

    I am furious that the same system is bleeding the country dry, while highlighting that woman and children needing protection from “GOD KNOWS WHAT” at that cost..

    As the Father I had no criminal record, no arrests, no domestic Violence record only a non molestation order because I challenged a bloody school of lunatic Mothers denying me information about my children, straight after been told to piss off by Social Welfare who knew exactly where they were.
    I had a court order for god sake and a warrant for the Mother arrest if she didnt let me have the Children. Suddenly I was a molester trying to activate my rights.

    later on I was made aware that the Mother had coached the school well before I got there..
    The Ex wasnt that smart believe it, that was a trap set up that came directly from her
    Woman Lawyer…

    After many many attempts I left New Zealand gutted.I had lost everything almost my life…
    22 years later Im dealing with the damage the Mother caused through the system.Yet the same system is still racking up millions of dollars Harbouring Womans rights over a Fathers…

    I just cant believe well over 20 years and it is still happening , the waste of money is totally outrageous .Surely if the public is made aware of the over all cost shouldnt it lead to people who bleed the system be sacked and disbar over an audit.

    Has there ever been an historical audit?Surely theres been accountability?
    disgraceful it still gets me going.

  5. joseph says:

    p.s Downunder would like to see that list forsure.

  6. Downunder says:

    There should be some record of those lists on MENZ

    Here’s one link: http://menz.org.nz/menz-issues/january-february-2001/

    Try a few searches.

  7. Dominic says:

    Thanks M.O.M.A , the credit must go solely to this site and those that write to it,
    We share and repost a lot of the articles here just for exposure to the public and always reference back here to those people.
    also Allan Harvey, U.O.F & Jim was great when I was going through it this was the only thing around, it sucks there is still so little in NZ , and thanks to one of the readers who suggested setting something like this on a post at the time,

    @ downunder great idea, there is a page setup hardly used for anything on lawyers ect if you want to put anyone up ?

    https://www.facebook.com/NZlawyersreviews?ref=hl

    I can also see some very exciting times coming up with this very organized group the ABF & NZBF that we are part of and about to launch direct action in lots of NZ family courts soon, they have clear goals and policy and already have good exposure in Australia,

    If anyone can offer advice or wants to be part of it, please feel free to join in their area,
    Australia
    https://www.facebook.com/australianbrotherhoodoffathers?fref=ts
    http://theabf.com.au/
    NZ
    https://www.facebook.com/nzbrotherhoodoffathers?fref=ts
    http://www.thenzbf.co.nz/

  8. kirann jiharr says:

    John Keys doesn’t allow audits of such corrupt organisations such as IRD, the judicial commision, Family courts etc…

    neither will any PM ever elected.

  9. Paul says:

    Joseph, who was the mother’s lawyer?
    Who was yours?
    Who has been counsel for the child?
    Who were the judges who you respect?
    Are there any you dont, which ones and why?

    I bet the same names crop up and repeat themselves.

    Your story is so common. Read court of injustice by Lauren Quaintance.

    I remember thinking that with no criminal record that I would get a fair go in the Family Court. That the court would support the parent doing the delivering for the children. That is delivering, homework , sport ,activities, who has bonded With the children ( the mother didn’t) who didn’t have a dead body hanging in their garage for our eight year old son to find. (the mother did)

    I thought that a court order meant that the children would be available for access on the basis of the order. After spending several thousand dollars with the lawyer to get access defined in a court order, when the children were not available for access the lawyer told me ” I suppose that we can apply to the court for an order to inform the order”‘ , no guarantees and you are looking at about 3 months and $ 1,500. What a fucking rip, I have more respect for some dude with a knife who says “gimme your money”.

  10. joseph says:

    # Paul,
    Well I wish there were champions back in the day that are so pro active today.
    I will find these names and yes I agree they will be the same people feeding from someones elses misery.
    I bet theres a trail of the Broken Hearted
    for 20 plus years. Hard pushed not to find them and smash them in the mouth.
    Honestly who would blame us people from reacting and giving them some of their own medicine.

    They have the same attributes that PEDOPHILES have on Families…
    You never see it coming,
    you never think it will happen too you,
    you trust them to share your grief get in close to your space.
    You trust them enough to share your most inner thoughts, your suffering, heart ache..
    All the while they know the system how it works while screwing you blind.
    They have no shame, they are the rotten foundation that is slippery wet with deceit
    They have BLOOD on their hands where people who trusted them have taken their lives.

    Naming and shaming them is not good enough..ALL their profits should stripped be taken and put back where it belongs too the suffering.
    Ive met these smooth operators in the courts ,CYF .
    I was a step Father with a loving Partner that said I was a good role model for her Kids too ALL?
    Yet apparently I wasnt good enough to bring up my own…for MONTHs at a time while she helped the Ex and the lawyers tie me up in court which quickly became years….
    They are the pus of society…with delusional ideals they could never hope too up hold themselves.
    I never let them know just how anger I really was because it was pointless…
    The unforgivable legalized alienation and mind fucking of my children that I am now
    having to re visit and hope too heal to secure a bound that should never been broken of treated with such contempt.

  11. joseph says:

    I ask myself
    Whats the true responsiblity of a man?
    Whats the responsibility of a Man whos now a Grandfather,
    in this situation

    thats a bigger enough question on its own for now..
    Anger solves nothing for anyone..
    Im just on here talking loud to myself brothers..
    sharing grief
    If no one hears thats fine..
    Can you believe I was brought up in a family that didt swear
    use derogatory words towards anyone..specially woman

    what do you do as a grandfather when your role models have all passed away!
    no matter how hard youve tried to emulate them
    When you can tick all the boxs in one family and yet fail with other continuely..
    So I gather days without anger.
    Read,Wrote,share on here, vent, Paint some and play music

    for me it forever started with
    the love given
    from a beautiful Woman theres no end too it
    Long may it continue..

    dont let the doves cry

    bring back the whistle

    MULTIPUL MEN WHISTLING SYNDROME thatll scare the hell out of em…

    bahhhhahhaaa aaa

  12. DJ Ward says:

    I hear you Joseph.

    There is nothing more evil in this world than those, and the system that has made us suffer.
    We cannot change the past.
    But it is evidence.
    That the future can only get better.

    Evil only survives because good men do nothing.

    I to.
    So I gather days without anger.
    Read,Wrote,share on here, vent, Paint some and play music

  13. Paul says:

    Come on guys, lets focus on their names. Most of us don’t feel too complimentary about these people, that goes with out saying

    who are they?

    Counsel for the child
    Legal aid leeches, (mother’s lawyer)
    Worst off the wall judges
    Psycologist
    Lawyer who lead you down the garden path.

    Do you think that there is information submitted to the judge that you/your lawyer doesn’t see?

    How about the web sites you go to?
    People you meet, friends or even aquaintinces?
    Places you go to?

    This may not have anything to do with you being a good parent or not but perhaps allow a judgement to be made based on some other criteria and based on some sort of so called evidence which you don’t even know exists let alone see.

    Think back to decisions you have experienced which are not consistent with the evidence at all.

    Think about what you were doing around that time. Drinking, gambaling, going to strip clubs, porn sites perhaps ? All of which is perfectly legal and will not impact on your ability to parent providing that these are things in our adult private life.

    It has been said that there may be another level of assessment of fathers taking place, the off the record stuff, the out of the affidavit stuff, things that you don’t see.

    Breach of privacy you say
    They can’t do that you might say – who can’t
    How would they do that (as a thought what about a shifty private dick?)
    They wouldn’t do that you might say.

    – prove it they might say and how would you do that.

    Have a think guys

  14. DJ Ward says:

    It’s all of them Paul.

    Nod nod, wink wink.

    Things can seem irrational in regard to individual cases. This does not mean that there is some external/internal conspiracy in regard to examining individuals. The judge may look at your police records or ministry of justice records but I doubt the industry is running around with private investigators looking for dirt. It may occur ‘rarely’ with specific individuals. Your ex might do that, although if she did find something, she will openly use it against you. The justice system don’t need to. They can just look at you and make judgements about you. They can believe evidence that is not true, and dismiss evidence that is true. The point becomes, how we make this person believe they are being subject to an injustice so that he will continue fighting. No lawyer, and associated parasite, feeds from the trough if nobody is tricked or forced by corrupt justice into putting money into it.

    Why do you think they ignore female sex crimes, female versions of domestic violence, and the long list of sundry crimes act offences that women commit against men and children?
    Why do you think they selectively ignore research, and selectively site research even when it has been shown to be ideological rubbish?
    Why do you think false allegations are not punished?
    Why do you think perjury is not punished?
    Why do you think they avoid normalising shared care like the plague?
    Why do you think ignoring the courts decisions is allowed?
    Why do you think acts of entrapment, and provocation is allowed?
    Why do you think repeated vexatious litigation is allowed?
    Why do you think it’s all done in secret?

    Men are prey. Its biological. Its how we respond that is the target.

    It’s all of them Paul. It would be easer to name and shame them all as guilty of bigotry, and much worse. Then with the rare individual, we could take them off the list when they prove themselves to us. Even then one cannot ignore guilt by association. Like members of a former German political cult.

    Justice for the family court is an accident that occurs in the process of making money.

  15. Downunder says:

    Justice: noun 1. fairness: impartiality: neutrality: objectivity: lacking prejudice: non-partisan. 2. An accident that occurs in legal process.

    Love that one DJ Ward.

  16. phil Watts says:

    Dear author of this post, MOMA, and Dominic #7 comment,

    Please give credit where it is due instead of patting each others backs for something that was my idea and i asked Dominic to set the facebook page up for me, which he subsequently usurped me from without warning just because i had the temerity to tell him that it is not acceptable that he removed my posts without asking or even telling me and giving a reason!

    In the interests of setting the record straight as you two are being rather duplicitous and ego driven to take credit for my idea, I was actually the person who instigated/founded (and whose idea it was) the facebook group ‘NZ Men Fed Up With Family Court’, organisation that is Femily Court in order to try and get rid of the corrupt child abusing and to support other men/dads whose children have been kidnapped by mothers and the Femily court.

    I never used to take credit or even tell anyone of the kindness i had shown them and of the sacrifices i made for them, but i am sick of others taking credit for my work and then using power and control tactics to feed their own egos. Dominic has subsequently usurped me and removed me from my own page without warning as he didn’t think he should ask or even tell me when he unilaterally decided to remove my posts, and i had the temerity to mention that to him.

    Please remember this is not about us, and i am not ego driven at all but i dislike liars and cheats and those who cannot see that Femily Court can only exist in a feminazi environment designed by ‘government’ to enslave the whole population and break up the family unit.

    Others have tried it their way and gone backwards for the last 40 years. I believe i know a better way and it involves exposing the government feminist ‘domestic violence’ anti-male propaganda and if anyone actually did it my way, we may well see change within 2 yrs. What do men have to lose by trying out my new ideas mixed with some from sages like Greg Hallett and Peter Zohrab?

    Sadly no one has ever supported me or been on my side due to their own ego’s which i am not a respector of those who wish to boss others around. does that make me a commune ist or one who believes in equal time to talk and pure equality when it comes to how people are treated? Women cannot be treated as babies by Femily Court and cops and judges and seek CEO positions merely due to the fact they have a vagina. I have always believed they should be treated the same as men and accountable for their actions of perjury and lying about ‘domestic violence’ and ‘legally’ kidnapping children.

    If anyone wishes for real change to do what is best for children instead of what their quote: “yes, i may be selfish, but so what.” mother’s want, then please contact me phil.r.watts@gmail.com

  17. hornet says:

    20,000 plus on that facebook page tends to give you an idea of how many good parents have been systematically destroyed by this system – deliberately destroyed – calculated, intentional destruction……..thats why its never going to change anytime soon…..because no one is accountable and because they will never investigate themselves – … remember the end game is to ensure you are impoverished and without rights or property…..and your kids are removed from your influence…..and values….

    http://frameblame.org

    http://frameblame.org/family-court-corruption-and-secrecy/

    http://frameblame.org/child-support-a-scam/

  18. Ministry of Men's Affairs says:

    Phil Watts (#16): Sure, if that Facebook page was your idea, well done! You deserve credit for the idea.

    We have no knowledge of the history that you speak of. The only person we have ever seen associated with the Facebook page is Dominic who announced it on MENZ Issues. Sorry you felt offended but that wasn’t intended. Not sure what you mean by your allegation that we have been duplicitous.

    We would be interested in ‘your way’ that you would like anyone to actually do. What aspects of your way have you tried already and how did they fare?

  19. joseph says:

    Phil Watts…
    Id feel like shyet too if a person we trust has broken their word,
    shut you out,lied and hurt you.
    “probably why we are all here really”
    But I “admire courage and encouragement”
    which for me is what your response is all about.
    thank you.

  20. Downunder says:

    It’s the gradual process of civilisation dehumanising people for it’s own benefit.

    We shouldn’t beat each other up over this, just because enough people haven’t realised this yet.

  21. triassic says:

    Phil Watts and Dominic, time for you guys to have a chat and sort out the issues between you. Femminists have an uncanny skill of never letting personal issues get in the way of their goal. Keep unity in mind is what I suggest. We are all playing a part in the big picture which is to educate the public to what is happening behind the scenes In our society.

  22. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Phil, triassic’s suggestion is very good. I guess it is a question of do you have enough patience and see enough value in searching for common ground?

    In my opinion, too many men give up, too early, due to egos getting in the way of relationship building. End result, no teamwork, no good results and perhaps two angry men?

    I disagree with triassic, that feminists don’t argue among themselves. He is comparing an outside image of feminists, with an inside knowledge on men’s movement. Also, comparing feminism today (ie 40 or 50 or 60 years after it started in earnest), to men’s movement say 30 years after it started in earnest.

    Judged more fairly, men aren’t doing that bad.

    Maybe more to the point, it says little for the men’s movement, that we haven’t learned lessons from the politics and women that have gone before. People who don’t learn from history, are doomed .. …… …

    Best wishes for some rapprochement with Dominic. However, in many similar situations that have gone before, most have made the worst of a situation, rather than take the best and move on from there. So, maybe you won’t find relationship building easy. Cost of communications is also an added barrier. When teamwork comes together, then achievements are much more likely to occur. There is a lot of value from working together.

    I don’t know Dominic and I do know you. If you would like a mediator, I am prepared to try to help. (However, I don’t want to waste too much time as ground meat in a sandwich.)

    Best wishes,
    Murray.

  23. DJ Ward says:

    Law Commision has decided to make it legal for women to stab thier partners to death in thier sleep. Not that they are not already getting away with it.

    Scared? They want advice from victim groups?

    http://www.lawcom.govt.nz/our-projects/victims-family-violence-who-commit-homicide

  24. Downunder says:

    Hmmm … can’t see them getting much of a response from dead men.

  25. Man X Norton says:

    I guess it will only be seen as undesirable when so many men have been murdered that child tax revenue reduces.

  26. Voices back from the bush. says:

    Yes I think most of us know by now what they mean when they say ” in appropriate cases”.
    Cases where the murderer hasn’t got a penis.

    As for asking for advice from victims I s’pose they mean the female victims who killed thier partners.
    The dead guy isn’t the victim your honour.
    If he could talk- he could confess to the abuse but as he can’t- well just have to make it up.

  27. MurrayBacon says:

    Well I feel pretty dead… near enough anyway.

    Zillions of murdered child [and spousal support] payers would give a new meaning to deadbeat father?

    Are there enough of us to be able to form a group, to pull together a submission?

    As we cannot tolerate leaders, would we have to have a policeman instead?

    Somebody suggested that if we couldn’t organise a submission in a men’s group, our only hope might be to join a feminist, well run group and hope that a few of our ideas did get through into the submission?

    Even if we only got as far as enjoying a winter dinner together and got no further than consuming a few beers, is this all that we can aim for?

    Or am I just pissing in the winter wind?

    Cheers,
    MurrayBacon – aggravated axe-murderer.

  28. Voices back from the bush. says:

    I’m in chch Murray and I can’t afford to travel.
    My pitch forks at the door, my pens worn out.

  29. Voices back from the bush. says:

    I can’t afford beer either.
    But just incase the other two and a half of you want to add something.

    I submit..

    Any male who has no previous history of violence that is accused of violence to a female should have the right to be questioned BEFORE he is arrested. !!!!

  30. Downunder says:

    Mate. You can make a good quality stubby size beer for about 20 cents a piece.

    … and you can’t afford beer?

  31. MurrayBacon says:

    Well, I got done for punching my ex-wife in the face. I did slap her lightly and completely non-injuriously across the face, honestly I thought. So I figure that as I have done the time, I should be free to do the crime, at any time that suits me. I would be much more inclined to make damn sure it was injurious this time. But I digress…

    Christchurch location may be a barrier to an Auckland dinner. You probably cook roasts better than I do anyway. But that was the secondary suggestion, where the primary was attempting to work together, to put in a sensible and constructive submission, about enforcing proper accountability on all murderers, whether female, male or corporate executive (including Government).

    At a pinch, if I can get around the world a few times on my broomstick, I can’t see why you can’t get back from Christchurch (and get to AK too) on your pitchfork? Why look for barriers, when you can look to what can or might be done? Lick road clean and then start again, before we had finished…..

    I’m getting more aggravated. Who can I cut to pieces? Submissions at 20 yards?
    MurrayBacon.

  32. DJ Ward says:

    This proposed law could make the ‘Thallium Craze’ look minor.

    Once women become aware that they can get away with crimes, they become prolific offenders.

    Thallium was banned due to men being systematically murdered by women because they could get away with it. My own grandfather just survived an attempt on his life. Rat poison.

    Guess the right to life doesn’t count if you’re a man.

    Should we follow other Law Commission ideas on justice? We could end up with a system where the defendant ‘the dead person’ has to present their case first, to a specialist, certified juror. IE nobody will fight for the rights of the dead person, and if they do they will have to be people who have proven ‘nod nod, wink wink’ to not rock the boat. Play the game etc etc.

    It is already the case that a female can stab their partner to death in their sleep and get away with it. All a women has to say is that she wanted the relationship to be better. They can even prove that the man was not violent and women still get away with murder.

    Shine? On News Talk ZB. What a load of NGO feminist crap. Being too stupid as a women to get help for DV is not an excuse for premeditated murder.

    Bring back the death penalty. OOPs they are, just for men, without trial.

  33. Downunder says:

    Well said DJ Ward

    It’s the same thinking as feminist judges try to impose in the Family Court.

    A woman’s mind is a legal entity, but goes a step further.

    A women’s mind is the legal entity.

  34. Downunder says:

    It’s the thinking that bothers me.

    It defies the law of self preservation. Self preservation is not the right to terminate another person’s life in the absence of danger or harm. The law must have a basis. As DJ Ward points out above, the right to create a specific set of circumstances that suit the individual.

    Is it a greater good argument?

    That terminating this person’s life is a service to society.

    Is it an argument of vanity?

    A defence of the killer’s superiority.

    We’re a constitutional monarchy. Is this the will of the despotic sovereign that we should blithely tolerate because it’s the house of the bitch.

    Where are the screams of anguish from those who protest so loudy when confronted with violations of human rights in the religious theocracies of the world (that violate ‘women’s rights’) or in those countries that allow sweatshops to rule over worker’s rights. They feel compelled to protest these injustices and demand change.

    So what exactly are these ‘human rights’ that the law commission wants to attritbute to women alone.

    What’s the basis of the law, of their thinking, apart from Feminists think it’s a good idea.

    The short answer is it’s more like, a country being run by a bunch of fuckwits.

  35. Downunder says:

    Source:

    Lead commissioner Wayne Mapp said the self-defence argument was easily invoked when an attacker was actually advancing on their victim.

    He said in such cases, the immediate danger could make a self-defence plea easy to argue.

    But Dr Mapp said in some cases a battered person could kill a partner when there was no immediate threat but when fear persisted that another attack was building and could be fatal.

    He said the Family Violence Death Review Committee which had been looking at domestic violence fatalities had said New Zealand law was out of step with other jurisdictions.

    and

    The Law Commission has also been asked to investigate a second aspect of domestic violence: non-fatal strangulation.

    Peter Boshier, lead commissioner on the issue, said it was a well known indicator of serious domestic violence and the Law Commission was being asked to decide whether it should be a separate crime from other assaults.

    The Family Violence Death Review Committee has also raised alarm bells over non-fatal strangulation, calling it “an important lethality risk indicator” and a “red flag for serious future abuse and fatality.”

    The Commission has been asked to report back on both matters by the end of March. (2016)

  36. dominic NZ men says:

    @16 PHIL.

    Please stop telling porkies, it was a reader of this very site that suggested the name and it wasn’t Phil, Its clearly in these pages for all to see with the dates and times recorded in stone,
    I set it up on my own personal FB page and added Phil later as a admin and what a disaster that was, please get to know the guy, he then started accusing the other admins of various ridiculous activities,

    I did talk with Phil by phone and email, even though I am in Auckland and never met the bloke, but when he went on one of his rants and accused me of some very very nasty stuff for absolutely no reason (yes I kept the conversation) I DREW the line at that and promptly deleted him as I was only trying to ever help him, but some people don’t want to help themselves,

    He has since started a page called “NZ Men Fed up with the NZ Family Court founder”, it currently has over a 100 likes in 6 months + feel free to look at it in all its glory and you might get an idea that hes pretty much lost the plot, while I feel sorry for him, no one in their right mind would put up with the abuse he dished out to me for no reason.
    I do very little with the site these days as its all handled by the 20 + admins guys and girls who do a great job, as soon as I find the earlier posting back in 2014 I will post up the link from the menz site and leave it at that.

    Good luck to you Phil,

    Regards
    Dominic

  37. Ministry of Men's Affairs says:

    dominic NZ men (#36): Thanks for keeping the MENZ Issues community informed. We think the posting to which you refer was http://menz.org.nz/2014/auckland-barrister-blows-chance-of-becoming-family-court-judge/, and particularly comment #26 which was Skeptic’s suggestion that “someone set up a Facebook page called Expose the NZ Family Court or similar?” That was the only such suggestion that we have been able to find on MENZ Issues.

    The FB site called ‘NZ Men Fed Up With Family Court Founder’ has good stuff relevant to its title but also a lot of other stuff mainly American based, such as the 9/11 conspiracy theory, New World Order plan, a bit of anti-semitism stuff, anti Monsanto stuff, anti GE, anti-medical and anti-psychiatry stuff including a claim that most people ‘accused’ of mental health issues are victims of sociopaths in positions of authority, general anti-government and anti-police stuff, anti-vaccination stuff, government is sending planes to drop chemicals on us stuff, claims such as “Everything you see on tv is propaganda and lies” and “Government is a mafia organisation”, and some of the ‘politicians are paedophiles’ stuff similar to unevidenced claims he has made here on MENZ Issues that NZ’s police bosses are paedophiles.

    Some of these concerns may well be important.

  38. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Dominic and Phil, leaving aside what has gone on between you two, the dynamic that you have both discussed has been a common one in the men’s movement.

    So my comments following are about men’s infighting in general through the last 30 years, rather than specific to you two (as I have no direct knowledge what may have gone on between you two).

    These types of misunderstandings and acting at cross-purposes bedevils men attempting to work together. Too often, people give up quickly.

    Working relationships do take time and experience with each other, to put together. Where men persist, there have been solid achievements. Unfortunately, this hasn’t happened often enough.

    So, I hope I can encourage people to be patient and tolerant with each other. To try to communicate clearly and to learn how to get on better, rather than giving up at the first altercation. It seems to me, that most men are in much harsher situations now, than say 25 years ago. This makes it harder to travel and meet in person, or share meals together. This makes wasted costs more critically important, alas.

    This leads to fewer meals shared together, less casual socialising and less opportunities to develop teamwork.

    This is unfortunate, as it appears that men’s viewpoints are more represented for the extremely well off and ignored for probably the greater number of men (who most need to be heard).

    Think also of the conclusions that all of this leaves in our children? It isn’t fun to put ourselves into their position. What conclusions are they coming to, about the value and stability of adult relationships?

    So, I hope that I can encourage tolerance and determination to work successfully together? Downunder has spoken on many occasions about the achievements of UoF and it is important that these stories are passed on and hopefully understood for what they are.

    Similarly too for Men’s Centre North Shore (started and run for many years by John Potter), which played a large role in supporting many hundreds of men (and quite a few women too), rationalise and survive what was done to them by familycaught$. Jim Bagnal is still playing an active role in familycaught$ support.

    In many cases, valuable lessons were learned the hard way and then passed on to many who needed them. It is sad when people fall into holes in the pavement (traps), that have been solved, but too many people still manage to fall into the same traps. This website records many hard lessons and often helps others be saved from being unnecessarily caught.

    Persist!

    Best regards,
    MurrayBacon.

  39. Man X Norton says:

    Good comments Murray. However, some people will damage the credibility and activities of a movement especially if their mind is disturbed and/or their words are careless. Axe murderers excepted (the axe probably deserved it.)

  40. JohnPotter says:

    I wasn’t involved in starting Men’s Centre North Shore Murray.

    The idea was first proposed in 1993 by Michael McCarthy, although most of the credit for getting Men’s Centre off the ground probably belongs to Birkenhead Community Facilities Trust co-ordinator Jill Nerhney.

    By early 1995 the organisation had been incorporated, a newsletter had been started, and some funding obtained. In June of that year Martin Lewis was employed as the first co-ordinator, and about that time I first joined the committee.

    You can read more about the early history of Men’s Centre North Shore here.

  41. dominic NZ men says:

    @ Ministry of mens
    Happy to put this one to bed once and for all!

    http://menz.org.nz/2014/auckland-barrister-blows-chance-of-becoming-family-court-judge/

    Yes that’s it, that simple suggestion by “skeptic” on January 2014 on post number ’26’ which went out to all the readers
    (you could see I was commenting on that post earlier) was all it took, as I already had set up a few other FB sites anyway for personal and work purposes and was looking for some other admins to help me run it as well, one of those admins was Phil but over the course of months ,he pissed everyone else off including myself.
    Yea Nah ! was never going to work by trying to split everyone up and it works well with new partners, grandparents cousins all joining as they have been alienated from kids by a vindictive ex and the NZ family court system and want to help,
    I have moved on from that as it is simply a good place for info and advice and will be taking up direct action in Auckland at the family courts soon with a team for the NZ brotherhood of fathers and am sure will be in for some fun times!

  42. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Man X Norton, your warnings about infighting showing the men’s movement to the public, in a very poor light is too true.

    Is this a strength, or a weakness?

    I think it is both, but the compromise is severe.

    I have suggested putting together a separate website, carefully moderated, in a form that would show consistent, constructive policies and information to the public. (In practice, we cannot hold a group of men together, long enough, to discuss policy options and compromise toward middle ground solutions. This work is plodding and painstaking and most guys don’t want to compromise their own position, let alone listen to each other’s ideas, let alone find common ground. So we get nowhere in the publicity stakes, well not as far as we want.)

    Most guys don’t see the need for constructive, middle of the road policies. They just want positive changes to happen (but without their effort or expense..).

    Example above, in this post: there was some very good info sharing, discussion of ideas, that could have led to a constructive submission. Despite my attempt to invite people to work together, there was only reasons for supporting Mr. DoNuffink.

    In my experience, websites foment discussion and action comes out of people who know each other personally.

    It doesn’t have to be like this, but at present we get no further than that limitation. Positive actions are worth so much more than words alone, as Dominic said above.

    Cheers,
    Murray.

  43. hornet says:

    Murray……

    While everyone Venting is good – what I think we all need are some clearly defined subjects which DEFINE the concerns we face….. we should all note by now that we all have stories and experiences which are SIMILAR in many ways – defining the same concerns – over and over again…..

    if these concerns are not isolated and kept visible they get lost in the wash of more similar concerns and stories…..

    Points of note.

    1. Family court Secrecy – a major concern for justice against any parent – mum or dad.
    2. Parental alienation – is now defined as Child Abuse in the USA – but not here in NZ. it must become a criminal offence.
    3. Causing harm to children – as above – if kids are harmed by parental alienation then it must carry consequences to deter it.
    4. Provocation – provocation and or entrapment to incite conflict needs to be criminalised. This tactic is in play everyday where good parents are forced into conflict.
    5. lawyer for Child = it needs to be made an offence for a lawyer for child to not intervene and PROTECT his or her client if they see harm being caused – I had this where the lawyer for child stated it was NOT his concern as he was only there to protect process…….not protect the child from harm – what a nice prick.
    6. Perjury – this offence appear to have been forgotten and is never enforced – if you make false allegations and cant support them with fact you get arrested and convicted.
    7. Court orders – must be enforceable by the POLICE – no more of this bullshit having to go back to court to get a warrant to enforce an order – the police are there 24/7 to act as needed…….they are quick to lock good people up for breaches of other orders – so breaching a court order to hand over kids must carry equal weight.

    If I have missed anything then please add to the list – keep this list visible and make it a target you want to achieve – for every story we have here = has the same concerns……..

    Only then so you keep everyone focused on the PROBLEMS we all face…….before we even start on the corruption of power in some circles and those acting for commercial gain over helping parents and kids……

  44. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Hornet, 1000% (no further comment necessary!!!)

  45. Downunder says:

    This site provides differently for many individuals, age groups, and perspectives. It’s good for venting. It’s good for keeping the record. It helps people to connect and realise they’re not alone in what they’re experiencing. It’s good for writers who want to tell the story or leave an opinion, and more – even incompetent axe-murderers.

    We even have some good discussions, now and then.

    Simply put, that’s a state of confusion on the eve of destruction – God only knows how the moderator has lasted so long, is what I often think, when I read many of the comments.

    Often it’s the first stop for the peacetime casualties which the general population is oblivious to. There’s no way in hell the site is going to look any smoother than a MASH hospital tent after the choppers have landed.

    We’ve all had to wear our own shoes through this, but with people I’ve known through the years who have experienced something similar, I’m equally glad not to have been in their leather.

    I accept our differences, and that anything that has been achieved has been as a loose group, regardless of what individuals have done, or may have done, or have been seen to do, (or even thought they did – inadvertent progress is a wonderful thing). I am comfortable with my contribution, I wish I could have done more.

    What this site is not, is a place of action. It’s not the front line. It’s not where change happens, although that’s not to say that the site has no influence, it does and has.

    Change is on the ground, in groups, amongst people who work together.

    It would be my candid opinion that any change which is occurring now, is seldom reported here, as the site is no longer well connected to the core groups around the country, as it has been in the past.

    I don’t have the involvement I used to, and I don’t see other people out there with their finger on the pulse anymore, so if there is any success worth mentioning, it’s full credit to the system (if I can use a Fitzpatrictism), for keeping the lid on the pressure cooker.

  46. hornet says:

    So we have unanimous agreement on an issue? If thats the case how then do we turn these targets into ACTION and get RESULTS?

    Firstly you have to identify those who dont want the system to change – the ones keeping everyone SUPPRESSED – Deliberately.

    Has anyone noticed the attention we are all seeing on DRIVERS LICENCES in this country? WHY were Maori not being prosecuted – and remember its got nothing to do with RACE, and in todays herald – Councils have not been setting Speed limits – so years of speeding tickets could now all be invalid?

    Why would this be?

  47. Downunder says:

    … and we were well organised.

    We even had a post office box, for anonymous help, from legal workers and other concerned, helpful persons.

  48. MurrayBacon says:

    except that directly addressing “selfish manipulation of conflicts of interest” (corruption) is the only way to turn around the root cause of these problems.

    Simon Powers’ window dressing in no way attempted to address corruption of legal workers, up a bench or down a bench. It achieved nothing at all, other than perhaps a public image that maybe something was being done. Really just a cost cutting exercise, it didn’t even properly achieve that. If it was meant to improve protection of vulnerable children, women or men, it probably just resulted in somewhat worse outcomes.

    Measures aimed at cutting out obvious legal worker’s aid fraud, achieved nothing to cut wasted costs, because the biggest area of wasted costs lies in slightly illegal manipulation of legal worker’s aid fraud. The gross cases publicly exposed, were done by “them”. The Establishment found it easy and convenient to sacrifice “them”. But the vast majority of the cost of legal worker’s aid fraud is done by “us”. The measures taken had no impact on the shades of grey frauds done by “us” and these costs still saddle the taxpayers and fraudulent enrich “us”.

    If we could only find out who “us” is, then it would be easy to save the wasted $hundred millions going to “us”?

    In both cases, the changes were managed and staged by members of “us”. No surprise, they just weren’t able to cut the flow of fraudulent unjust enrichment……….

    What if there were a few mothers and fathers on the committee managing changes to legal worker’s aid fraud?

    It is amazing how a new broom can sometimes put old wood into jail, quite a lot of old wood, for quite a few years. Maybe a few family trusts would have to be broken, to repay fraudulently taken funds? Not a few, probably most of them. Cold shivers run down spineless spines…..

    Of course, don’t forget the prosecution of the Minister of DOC (re Cave Creek) and Peter Whittle, the Safety Expert of Pike River carbon monoxide company? They are still waiting patiently for persecution….

    Paying good salaries to judges is the carrot, for people who want to do their job well. Half of present salaries is more than enough to do that, judging by USA practice.

    Jailing the deliberately, thieverous, mercilessly corrupt is the stick, the kick on the backside for staff to do their job competently

    It is only by removing the incompetent and corrupt placeholders, that space can be made in these institutions, for people with useful, relevant and competent skills. Then these people can be free to get on with the job.

    There is a real job to be done, if the corruption is excised. Families can be left free from being deliberately bled and milked, to get on with the business of being family..

  49. Voices back from the bush. says:

    To hornet @ 43,
    Yes MurrayBacon and others have been pressing for the man issues of injustices men(and thier children) are most affected by to be listed and an action plan decided on for real change.
    Some suggest a seperate website but I feel that this site is a most suitable place for our submissions to be discussed and decided.
    It appears we are all frustrated that we don’t have “unity”.
    At the bottom of the page below “browse by topic and date and links could be a good place to list these issues.
    Perhaps a top ten issues list would be good.
    We may not agree on what order or prority they should be placed, (as we all have differing complaints) constructive argument is extremely necessary.
    For example I would place pergery as my number one as it has affected my life the most severely. Although children’s rights to thier dads cannot be overstated it just pisses me off to think of how many men sit in cells falsely accused of crimes.
    I would be interested to see a list of our issues put to vote and an action plan chosen to make submission to parliament, Statments to media requesting publications etc. Perhaps a vote would also give us an idea of how many of us there are that feel strongly about these issues also.
    Australia and Canada and the Uk are building strong campaigns that are gaining attention. We could do better for ourselves if we unite.
    NZ was the first country to uphold women’s rights to vote.
    Could we be the first country to uphold men’s rights. ?
    Some say men’s rights are not a vote winning issue for politicians. But with labour achieving less than 10% of men’s vote last election – perhaps politicians might one day wake up to why a great many of us don’t vote for them or don’t vote at all.

  50. MurrayBacon says:

    And a ham sandwich is better than complete happiness…..

    Nothing is better than complete happiness.
    And a ham sandwich is better than nothing.
    Q.E.D.

    So, if we cannot get onto banging together submissions, then maybe a cold roast dinner and a few warm beers is all that we can hope to aim for?

    I can cut the roast, but it would probably be smashed to bits. Still edible, but it wouldn’t look like a work of art. I am truly incompetent at carving, despite all the practice. Probably better if someone else does the carving.

    Plenty of parking for pitchforks and broomsticks. They are also good for after dinner, when the alcohol and frustration has kicked in and triggered drunken rampage. Then an afterdark tour of legal worker’s houses might be in order, just like the old days. Who would want a BMW, when you have a broomstick or pitchfork? Everyone could wear black, just like in the USA Government violence TV programmes…. Reality is a crutch for people who won’t use drugs.

    I am getting carried away, in a straightjacket.

  51. DJ Ward says:

    An example could be a blog is created for a submission.
    EG we could do one for the Law Commission. For #23 when submissions are finally asked for.
    A submission is written by the blog owner, and we discuss changes and additions. Importantly as a group we can collate supporting evidence.

    We can then on behalf of MENZ send in the submission, and or as individuals copy/paste the submission and send it in as a generic one.
    Look at submission lists. Profoundly women groups spouting the same feminist bullshit. We are up against the wall, but we can still put up a fight, together, despite our differences.

    Other actions we can take together include creating blogs for human rights commission complaints, and petitions to parliament.

  52. Downunder says:

    (I understand they have sparkly pink ones for axe-murders)

    Having belonged to multiple organisations, been party to numerous submissions, attended numerous select committee processes, (at one stage talked the Social Services Select Committee into holding a meeting in Auckland) having spoken to far too many people about this over a decade, and heard too many lies from politicians, I came to the conclusion that this process was a complete waste of time, when it came to changing Family Law, but not as a lesson in reality.

    The Family Court is regarded as a necessary evil in a civil society to clean up its arse end. It attracts the most belligerent and bigoted of legal workers, who couldn’t be more unsuited for the job at hand, but the same time holds fast to a set of ideals that defy nature, principle and morality.

    It was declared a failed experiment over a decade ago by the legal profession, but it will remain as long as it is tolerated.

  53. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Downunder, you are largely right about the fairly small impact of making submissions. But:

    Political parties are number counters primarily. Certainly in recent years, numbers of people has become less important, as the impact of rich individual funders has grown and surpassed real people ie everyday voters.

    MMP should have significantly improved the quality of proportional representation of all voters, but the impact of corrupt money has outshone the improvements brought in by MMP. This is why the Sky City/National Party has gambled on not bringing the Electoral Finance Act into working condition. Its a no lose gamble for them, but we won’t be so lucky.

    If you think NZ has serious problems in this area of quality of representation, look to the Land of the Free, where corrupt money practically directly controls election outcomes and Government policies.

    By choosing to enforce tax laws (like they enforce child [and spousal support] laws, the forces of corrupt wealth would be held back and democracy could be far more effective. What a terrible idea?

    The relative strength of corrupt money and everyday voters can be gauged by how Government policy serves both groups.

    I would guess that USA House of Representatives and Congressmen get 90% of their income from non-tax paid sources and this is huge influence and control. I don’t think this is visible in tax returns!

    If Governments took back control over tax evasion by wealthy individuals, these problems could be righted in a couple of years. This would reduce the number of wars and save countless lives throughout the world. This tax evasion enables the assembling of large amounts of corrupt wealth.

    USA Government spends more on healthcare than any other country, but doesn’t achieve universal coverage of it’s population! This suggests large, hidden financial transfers from members of medical profession and drug companies, to benefit representatives on the take.

    Economists call this capture of benefits, ie the value of the spending doesn’t go to the people ostensibly targeted to benefit, but is captured in this case by “medical professionals” and representatives.

    The great USA Prohibition was initially lobbied and funded by those who benefited the most, the mafia.

    This sounds awfully like NZ Government spending on legal worker’s aid and familycaught$ “judges”. mafia come in many guises.

    At the very least, submissions lay down a historical record, that sets the background against which historians write political history. This does apply a small amount of pressure. Sometimes media reporters read submissions and this may assist them to challenge politicians of the day, very publicly.

    Serco Ltd is presently being exposed for failing to protect prisoner’s lives. Private prisons is high risk for conflict of interest to be taken advantage of. The managers have the least to lose and most to gain, when they are not being satisfactorily monitored. Then, there is an important question, are there hidden benefits flowing back to the people who should be doing the monitoring, to protect vulnerable prisoner’s lives?

    Of course, the same logic applies for those people tasked with monitoring and supervising the familycaught$.

    Are they receiving hidden benefits, from those on the take, that benefit from Government largesse and who should be being held to account for the quality of service that they provide or fail to provide?

    Best of all, we should try again to build numbers behind submissions.

    So, for those of us with a little spare time, who don’t want to fall under the Devil’s control, maybe we can follow DJ Ward’s lead and work together on submissions?

    I can’t sleep, with all these worries. Beer doesn’t touch the spot. Its only drugs…..

    Pink sparkly, were you referring to the ECT, the straightjacket, or the drugs? I want to get it right, before committing myself…

  54. Downunder says:

    I look at it this way Murray, if you can’t envisage a tipping point in there somewhere, you’re wasting time and energy.

    Tell me where the tipping point to any change is?

    There will always be people putting in submissions, and good on them for taking the time.

    When people on this forum start talking about action of some kind, it’s a good start to be armed with reality rather than some false sense of proportion.

  55. Downunder says:

    Oh … and straight jacket. Thought a pink and sparkly jacket would go well with the white shorts.

  56. Dominic NZ men says:

    That time is now, call to action for kiwi guys and fathers rights supporters , me first !

    I have just spoken to Jim Bagnal again and will try to take as much knowledge as possible into our direct action starting in the next 2 weeks, first at the Auckland family courts (I am in northshore) with the NZBF (New Zealand brotherhood of fathers) and then expanding into all other NZ family courts with team leaders and areas already worked out but still a few vacancy’s, they / we are well organized self-funded, #notyourright campaign, we have boards (our kids need fathers)and (parental alienation is child abuse) shirts, logos , hand-outs business cards , clear policy code of conduct and goals including lobbing the MPS in our areas + social media working for us ,please feel free to support us and join any of the team in the upcoming months , we are putting boots on feet and getting out there , one look at the aussies doing it right now should more than encourage anyone who wants to do more than keyboard warrioring, to get out and help, sadly most I come across don’t want to get off their butts or don’t know how to like me as well, but it’s time for a change and at 40 years old I want to say I did something with my life to change this crap family court system,
    Please see the NZBF policy’s goals and structure,

    http://www.thenzbf.co.nz/
    https://www.facebook.com/nzbrotherhoodoffathers?fref=ts
    https://www.facebook.com/australianbrotherhoodoffathers?fref=ts

  57. MurrayBacon says:

    Sorry, I was speaking in the language of short term. I have seen many men say, our submission was ignored, no change occurred, so why do I bother?

    I have said that myself, too often.

    However, other people who had being doing it longer than I, pointed out that in trying to make a sale, often the first conversation just plants a seed. A second conversation perhaps plants another seed alongside, or waters the first seed. And, after a small number of years, a few more conversations, perhaps something really good does come out of it.

    Even if a submission isn’t read by the target MPs, it is still excellent discipline for clarifying ideas, seeing if everything really is thought out fully and at the very least it is there for historians to judge politicians harshly.

    So yes, I do see a tipping point. I have given up holding my breath, but I certainly see a tipping point and do my best to aim for it. I am horrified how far out tipping points may be. So I work to try to make them sooner, rather than later.

    I try to avoid being just: Eat, consume, Die!

    Think that pink and sparkly ECT and/or drugs are more use, bugger. Wonder if they work well together?

  58. joseph says:

    great stuff guys, interesting comments and information. thank you.

  59. DJ Ward says:

    This shows just how lucky we are that NZ men are such fine upstanding citizens, not deserving of the appalling treatment that they receive.
    Just imagine if all the males that instead of hurting others for their suffering, by taking their own lives, were to do this instead.
    Just imagine if the Livingstone events and other protection order travesties resulted in males doing this.
    Violence is wrong, so don’t do it.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/drop-of-blood-led-to-arrest-of-leonard-warwick-68-for-family-court-bombings/story-fns0kb3z-1227462648061

  60. GreatFather says:

    Hello, Just a quick question. Can the NZ Family court gives costs to one party if the other party seeks it ? Thank you.

  61. DJ Ward says:

    #23 example
    Yes they already get away with it.
    Even when they kill frail old women.
    As long as the offender is female, the law will descriminate.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/71018104/annie-rangi-sentenced-for-manslaughter-of-her-frail-mother-aileen-macdonald

  62. Man X Norton says:

    DJ Ward (#63): Another appalling pussy pass. This violent woman claimed she bashed her mother to death in self-defence because “she feared her mother would hit her. But the mother wore a colostomy bag and used a mobility scooter! This violent thug killer woman repeatedly assaulted her infirm frail mother on her head, failed to check her condition, failed to call for immediate help and absconded in an effort to avoid blame. Even a 14yo male kid received almost twice as long a prison term for manslaughter than this adult woman did.

  63. DJ Ward says:

    #23 example.
    See they already get away with it.
    IE stabbing their partners to death in their sleep.
    She wanted the relationship to be better? And stabbing him to death was her solution.
    And he was not violent. But she still got away with it ‘murder’.
    Knowingly waited for him to go to sleep.
    Knowingly went and got a large knife.
    Knowingly plunged the knife into his chest while he slept.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/71110931/Husband-killer-Lucille-Scollay-needs-to-improve-behaviour-Parole-Board

    She should be retried, like Gwaze

  64. Jono says:

    Whats happened to the N Z men fed up with the family court facebook page?

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