MENZ ISSUES

MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Improving Submissions by Understanding Public Policy Analysis

Filed under: General — MurrayBacon @ 5:03 pm Sun 29th April 2018

Many submissions to Governments are based along the lines of “I Want”. These submissions often fail to respect the reasonable interests of other affected parties. As a result, they tend to be less persuasive to politicians, when the consider making changes to Government policies.

More persuasive submissions will be based on offering the politician a workable policy option. To be workable, it must respect all affected parties.

My suggestion for entering the challenging world of public policy analysis, is Wikipedia.
Public_policy
policy_analysis

Most people think that policy writing is easy. Writing something may be easy, but writing a policy that will work in the real world is astonishingly difficult and generally we are quite poor at doing it. The number one problem is people!

If everyone was like me, it would be much easier! Dangerous and misleading appeal to simplicity.

Economic policy analysis is challenging. (It usually involves business, or engineering design and costing.)

Example: Light rail or heavy rail to airport:

Analysis of social policies is far more complex, due to the breadth of human behaviours and desires and craziness. Politics clouds these issues further…..

The NZ Science Advisor to Government, Sir Peter Gluckman has written several very good papers:

https://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/1.14838!/menu/main/topColumns/topLeftColumn/pdf/507163a.pdf
The art of science advice to government
Citizen-based-analytics
The-role-of-evidence-in-policy-formation-and-implementation-report
He has commented on the poor quality of policy analysis within NZ Government:
too-much-instinct-too-little-evidence-policy-making-says-gluckman

Very interesting subject. It has a huge impact onto everyone’s quality of life. (Even more so for those parents driven to suicide, by poor social quality social policies. Mothers or fathers…)

We have much to benefit from putting in more effort, improving our policy analysis and having clearer political discussion before legislation is passed. This is the extreme opposite of passing legislation under “urgency” late at night, just before a holiday weekend.

As policy analysis is very complex and involves knowledge from a wide range of fields, it should never be done by a single person Teamwork is the essence of success, for many reasons.

Examples of submissions:
Many excellent submission examples may be found on the websites of the organisations listed below, as policy think tanks. Also look at the websites of Parliament and partisan policy writers such as political parties and other pressure groups, that you may be at cross purposes with.

Organisations Who Publish Policies:
You will note that these organisations have teams of people working together on policy analysis.
Motu
NZ Army We don’t want to kill poor people, we want to kill happy people!
maxim
New Zealand Centre for Political Research (including Dr. Muriel Newman Shared Parenting Bill)
NZ Institute for Economic Research
McGuinness Institute TacklingPovertyNZ
AUT Institute of Public Policy
Auckland Uni Public Policy Institute | Te Whare Marea Tātari Kaupapa
Family First
When you understand the other side, throw caution to the winds and pick up your pen…… (before the submission date!)

Political Process and Persuasion:
Bettina Arndt in her Keynote Speech at International Conference for Men 2017 gives positive ideas for getting past the roadblocks that the men’s movement is facing.
More subtle evolutionary based issues were covered by Karen Straughan’s speech about Evolutionary Realities. Keyword Neoteny starts at 10 minutes.
The women’s movement uses simple slogans, which seem deceptively simple and hard to argue with. Such as “equal work for equal pay”. This can be said in 5 seconds. To bring out all of the policy issues that are relevant to forming fair and equitable policy would take a discussion a day or even weeks, if there was no argument. Few listeners have that much patience, in this day of 90 second sound bites.

33 Responses to “Improving Submissions by Understanding Public Policy Analysis”

  1. triassic says:

    Good points here Murray. I once thought that any course in critical thinking wwould eliminate submissions that are narcissistic in nature. It is therefore ironic that most submissions put forward are done by academics who have degrees in the humanities and social sciences. It is now these disciplines which lead the world in archaic thinking in our universities which are destroying the very enlightenment and freedoms we have achieved over the last century.
    *Sorry if this offends or triggers you.* 🙂

  2. Downunder says:

    Your first line interests me.

    Many submissions to Governments are based along the lines “I want”.

    I am not sure if that reflects the men’s experience?

    Most, if not all of the submissions I’ve been involved with, personal and group, have been more along the lines of ‘don’t want’.

    Is this your observation of submissions in general, Feminist activism, or perhaps an aspect of human nature in personal presentation, ‘I’ am on the attack rather than a third person observation of ‘the likely outcome’.

  3. Murray Bacon says:

    Dear Downunder, I don’t understand your last sentence. Please explain?
    I am trying to focus on how people might be able to make submissions that are more persuasive to politicians.
    A submission that says “I don’t want” fails to say what is actually wanted. So it does risk not being clear what is actually wanted.

  4. Downunder says:

    @3

    I’m not sure if you are talking about submissions in general (many submissions to Government) or those submissions related to men’s issues that we occasionally see here.

    My experience is that the ‘I want’ tends to be the Feminist side of the equation where as the men’s side is opposed to that change.

    Reading submissions from both sides of the fence there is also a tendency of the ‘I want’ submission to be supported by the crying individual(s) bad experience(s).

    Submissions relating to social change take a different approach to say something like climate change.

    My point is not to nit pick, but to understand the difference.

    If you take something like child support you would also see an absence of submissions from affected males as these are naturally suppressed by the risk of exposing the individual to attack or further attack which are very real situations.

    So group submissions in this respect are more important and the way this has been approached in some previous events (as you suggest) is to write a more detailed submission with the same submission being filed by a larger group of individuals to maintain some degree of anonymity.

    Understanding and making submissions relating to men’s issues becomes even more complicated with a socially varied group of men who go down the track of I don’t want to be associated with ‘that bit’.

    There is a very real social prejudice amongst men simply because they have bought into the mass media diatribe and aren’t aware of what is actually happening to individuals because they neither see it personally or become concious of it through news items.

    When it comes to gathering information from individual cases, analysing, collating and submitting, that is also a much larger task than the Feminist ‘I want’ as we saw in your recent post about child support.

    You make it appear much easier than it is in reality. Having been the organiser for the SFST (Separated Father’s Support Trust) Select Commitee Hearings prompted by Warren Heap’s petition (which with some effort we managed to get held in Auckland along with Wellington) I can assure you the complexities do exist once you get more involved in trying to deal with the men’s/father’s side of the equation likewise making the effort to front a committee and force attacks from Feminist MPs by making a good oral submission in support in also essential.

  5. Evan Myers says:

    Is there also social bias through Feminism.

    One woman’s bad experience is justification for change, whereas men at the bottom of heap (not that I like to use that expression but it makes the point) are regarded as a group of unrecognized de-personalalised individuals.

  6. Murray Bacon says:

    Dear Downunder, thank you for your powerful reply.
    I was talking about submissions in general.
    I do understand the difficulties. That is why I assembled this post, to encourage people to rise above the difficulties.
    Both Bettina Arndt and Karen Straughan addressed the subtle and evolutionary issues, that make it yet more difficult for men to be heard in the current climate.
    As Karen said (my quote isn’t exactly word for word):

    The women’s movement uses simple slogans, which seem deceptively simple and hard to argue with. Such as “equal work for equal pay”. This can be said in 5 seconds. To bring out all of the policy issues that are relevant to forming fair and equitable policy would take a discussion a day or even weeks, if there was no argument. Few listeners have that much patience, in this day of 90 second sound bites.

    The difficulties that you mention, is exactly why I brought this post together, so that people may build successfully on what has gone before. I hope the comments extend that sharing of experience, as you have done. Thank you.

  7. Downunder says:

    There are other issues around submissions and the general reluctance to be bothered.

    The select committee process was never designed for MMP. Consequently it has developed into a highhacked-by-politicians process stacked according to the importance of various political parties agenda and determination to see any piece of legislation passed.

    This is the ‘I want’ as you put it, of politicians, and if you have seen some of these committees in action, they’re pathetic.

    You can see this currently reflected in the waka jumping debate, where you have politicians saying we need to preserve politician’s democratic rights whereas today you see Nick Smith (and no surprise) announce all the public submissions are against waka jumping.

    The current coalition is the next best thing to a jumped waka, with many NZ First voters believing that the party would go with national in coalition or uphold their priority on an anti-smacking legislation referendum.

    The idea of submissions is not only seen as futile, but often dangerous to open one’s mouth, and the current political process is fast losing favour with the general public, who do vote, let alone those who can’t be bothered voting.

  8. MurrayBacon says:

    Dear Downunder, interesting point:

    The select committee process was never designed for MMP.

    The manipulation that you mention, number of MPs on the committee, does actually mesh fairly well with proportional representation. Though all of these systems fall down for groups in society of less than say 5%.
    I accept that short term changes are often not achieved. Even if we want short term change, usually we have to accept longer term changes, as being better than nothing.
    Care of my Children, says I want to obtain long term changes, rather than nothing at all. I cannot understand how any caring parent could say otherwise?
    To be beaten by my own decision to give up, would be to admit total defeat.
    I have fingernails, teeth, nails, hammers, fists, feet, axes, chainsaws, chains and tritium, all for the purpose of never giving up.

  9. Downunder says:

    The manipulation that you mention, number of MPs on the committee, does actually mesh fairly well with proportional representation. Though all of these systems fall down for groups in society of less than say 5%.

    I think you’ve got some concepts confused.

    Proportional representation doesn’t equate to irresponsible government rather than responsible government.

    The 5% threshold of MMP is only relevant to the voting system, and shouldn’t be confused with groups in society, minorities and other labels that identify politicaly disaffected groups.

  10. Downunder says:

    To be beaten by my own decision to give up, would be to admit total defeat.
    I have fingernails, teeth, nails, hammers, fists, feet, axes, chainsaws, chains and tritium, all for the purpose of never giving up.

    There is with age the historic concept … participation is a must … but with younger voters there are other concepts such as … voting only encourages stupidity.

    The political view changes along with the system, although in NZ case I would say more with the manipulations in the system.

    I suspect that even our spooks are struggling with the credibility of what they are protecting.

  11. Evan Myers says:

    Custody is perhaps less of a deterrent to the older protester but one has to wonder why a 54 year old man would be making his submission directly to police rather than through the political process.

    A stolen 10-tonne truck smashed through the front doors of a rural Waikato police station just after midnight on Sunday.

    It then led police on a merry chase around rural Waikato before police stopped it by shooting a tyre out.

    A 54-year-old man has been arrested following the incident.

  12. MurrayBacon says:

    This YouTube talk is about sex work policy issues in UK. It incidentally covers the breadth of public policy analysis.

    What caught my eye, is that he covers perverse effects of possible policies.

    Study of perverse effects is very challenging in many ways. Yet this is the issue in which public policies fail so badly. This happens when they were poorly thought out, before the policies were put into practice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MavoAMaUB1k

    Sex work today: myths, morals and health (29 Nov 2012)

    Prof Graham Scambler, Professor of Medical Sociology, UCL Institute of Epidemiology & Health

    The methods of approach that Professor Scambler suggests, can be generalised into other policy areas, if you use a lot of imagination and creativity.

  13. MurrayBacon says:

    Closer to home, another example of slow, patient, sustained lobbying, in the face of much public ill will.
    It grieves me, to hold up an example of women’s lobbying, as a successful example of educating and developing the pubic’s understanding of issues. It does not grieve me because I disapprove of better protection for women. It grieves me, that men’s lobbying has been so poor and learned so little from the women’s movement.
    http://www.nzpc.org.nz/pdfs/Rada%C4%8Di%C4%87,-I,-(2017)-NZPC-An-example-of-a-successful-policy-actor,-Soc-Sci-6,-46.pdf

  14. Evan Myers says:

    Do you actually believe they are ‘successful lobbying’ or contrived successes?

    I would say the lather.

    Simply political forces encouraging the paperwork.

    When men try the equivalent process on the basis of this being an open transparent interaction of course they are somewhat befuddled at the lack of progress.

  15. JustCurious says:

    @13 – I stopped reading after page one when I read this.

    Sex workers’ demands for decriminalisation of sex work and the recognition of sex workers’ rights have also been supported
    by several United Nations agencies, such as the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the United Nations
    Entity for Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women
    (UN Women), United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), the
    World Health Organisation (WHO), and the United Nations Joint Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), as well as Amnesty
    International and Human Rights Watch
    (Global Network of Sex Work Projects 2016; Dziuban and Stevenson 2015).

    It explain everything. global international players

  16. JustCurious says:

    HTese are the same players behind the phenomenon we call “Feminim” though I disagree with the focus and fascination men on this site have fro it, the domestic violence act and the uncroc (somethng to do with the rights of the children.”
    Currently, this is the biggest instrument in pushing the global agenda down on our throats.
    Victims have more rights than human
    Women have more rights than men
    Children have more rights than their parents.

    All these agendas and policies are pushed down from the UN – and each participating member/state/country is basically made to incorporate these globalist.inc agenda rules and laws into their own laws.

    The few latest big blasts we have been dealing with are the anti terrorrism convention and anti corruption/money laundering schemes which essentially allow any ruling member of any government to declare any opposition a terrorist and use the anti money laundering scheme to seize and confiscate all assets. – Worse, the FBI has now a mandate allowing it to work internationally and in any country where they are signatories to these agreements.

    That’s the big picture – so maybe if we want to lobby, we may have to start at the UN level and push it down teh throat of local governments.

    This reminds me Jacinda Arden used to be very heavily and strongly affiliated with the UN youth club.

  17. MurrayBacon says:

    It grieves me that a few men see these social battles as “should take a year or two to sort out maximum”.
    Our society is not like that.
    How long did the freeing of human slaves take?
    How easy was the fight?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette
    …..and women’s battles for equality are far from over yet.
    Face the reality, or you will be disappointed!
    I am just trying to say, get yourselves together, for a long, sustained slogging match.
    Spend your energy accordingly….
    I think most men under-estimate the work involved in any of these large social campaigns.
    Most of all, survive.

  18. Downunder says:

    … women’s battles for equality are far from over yet.

    A bunch of self absorbed dribbling idiots convincing young impressionable females that the world owes them an existence.

    Like the Wellington bus driver said, “I thought being a woman would protect me.”

    In the world they’re creating that’s the payback, the survival, and you, dare I say it, are in Fantasy Land.

  19. MurrayBacon says:

    You did dare, grin, quite easily it seems.
    … women’s battles for equality are far from over yet. What a rise!
    Maybe I didn’t say it in black and white above, but:
    men’s battles for equality are far from over yet. Both sides are true, whether I say it or not.
    I try to say, look at the wider picture across our whole society,
    then lets try to propose systems that are reasonable and fair for all individuals.
    That is not turning a blind eye to injustices that have been done. I am trying to say learn from all of the injustices.
    I am in Fantasy Land, let there be no doubt.
    Most of all, survive.
    Too many men on this website show signs of not surviving. At times, I am in that situation.
    But battles based on injustices suffered by small minorities are not often going to obtain much public support.
    Living only in these narrow situations does not set up an effective social campaigner, as far as I can see. It just fills our cemeteries and mental hospitals.
    Besides, why not enjoy being alive, even if only for a short while?

  20. Downunder says:

    Battles suffered by small minorities?

    So, say 8000 Family Court cases, 16,000 parents, 40,000 children … per year.

    When you only focus on those men, yes just the few social casualties in a population of 5,000,000.

    But the real social affect is to the lives of those children, and that’s a much bigger number amongst one third of the population which is the juvenile third.

  21. MurrayBacon says:

    I cannot really see that we are arguing about meaningful points.
    You are pointing out many small minorities…..
    I am saying, try to consider what is fair, just and proper for all members of our society, including all of these minorities.
    I cannot see any real argument between us, except that we are kicking each other’s shins. It might get boring after a while?

  22. Downunder says:

    I wouldn’t imagine that kicking your skins would help you’re thinking but I’m not inclined to behave like a girl.

    Given that both the social effect of a court’s shadow and the determining factors in child association that should be taken into consideration, I really don’t think we’re on the same page.

  23. MurrayBacon says:

    When behaving like a girl or woman is advantageous, then I am happy to do it. Although I don’t see much relevance in that comment.
    As far as I can see, antislavery campaigners 1800s, suffragettes 1900s, child welfare campaigners 1700s 1800s 1900s 2000s, anti-racism campaigners 1900s 2000s, anti-homophobia campaigners, anti-nuclear weapons campaigners, women’s health services campaigners, free speech campaigners, offer us useful examples, then I am happy to learn from any of them.
    More to the point, try to learn from the best, whoever they might be.
    Somebody said, a wise man can learn from a fool, but a fool can’t learn from a wise man.
    愚者不学无术,智者不耻下问。 I hope this is right??
    Painfully true.

  24. Evan Myers says:

    Abolition of slavery has been a process through most of the second melinnium post the Roman Empire.

    Even now we’re seeing signs of reoccurring human trafficking.

    If you are drawing comparison in terms of that process you might want to be a little more specific.

  25. MurrayBacon says:

    I am trying to be specific that social campaigns are not often fought and won in half a year or two.

  26. mama says:

    23.. a fool can most certainly learn from a wise man..who claims to know what someone else can think,, and who said the fool is a fool…fool until proven otherwise.

    Sometimes it pays for fools and so called wise to work together for the greater good as opposed to the wise man working toward an end,,, his own.

  27. MurrayBacon says:

    to work together for the greater good

    It was said very well above at #3

    You make it appear much easier than it is in reality. Having been the organiser for the SFST (Separated Father’s Support Trust) Select Commitee Hearings prompted by Warren Heap’s petition (which with some effort we managed to get held in Auckland along with Wellington) I can assure you the complexities do exist once you get more involved in trying to deal with the men’s/father’s side of the equation likewise making the effort to front a committee and force attacks from Feminist MPs by making a good oral submission in support in also essential.

  28. Downunder says:

    But the outcome of course is very different.

    Little more than a bit of street theatre that didn’t make the cut for that days news.

    The corruption lurking in the background attacking those individuals who dared to be involved.

  29. Evan Myers says:

    “Big job, maybe more than a day, could need a packed lunch,” said Goffer.

  30. JustCurious says:

    Once again I think this is a discussion that may not go anywhere.
    We cannot fight feminism – to do so is to give it power.
    WE cannot fight at all – It’s like the Palestinians throwing rocks at walls for lack of a better weapon.
    And the Israelis throwing bombs in heavily populated areas and shooting fish in a barrel, in reataliation.

    Who is the aggressor?

    The purpose if any is to make just laws for everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.everyone.

    Propose a system that works for men, women and children.
    Learn from our hurt and what went wrong.
    Use these mistakes or abuses to prevent and protect others from being harmed by a system which sole purpose must be to protect and empwoer every human being it is mean to oversee/serve.

  31. Downunder says:

    Perhaps not dissimilar to a man going to the Familky Court; “Oh, now I see what they’re talking about.”

    So, come back in 10 years and tell us; “Oh, now I see what the Feminist political process is really like.”

    But of course it’s 10 years worse, because of the acceptance of our failing political process.

  32. Downunder says:

    @25

    The interesting thing about the Atlantic slave trade is that the remnants of the business moved to the Pacific. Blackbirds, Blackbirders, as they were known tried to reestablish their businesses between the Pacific Islands and a developing Australia.

    There simply wasn’t a market, I suspect amongst a population who understood what it might be like to live like that, and it didn’t happen.

    So, reflecting on that, was it the outcome of submissions or a public understanding, that stopped this short.

    The idea of Australia being the Southern Orleans is hard to even imagine.

  33. MurrayBacon says:

    Statistics NZ and Treasury are at it again. Good background reading:
    Our living standards framework
    Indicators Aotearoa New Zealand – Ngā Tūtohu Aotearoa: Consultation

Leave a Reply

Please note that comments which do not conform with the rules of this site are likely to be removed. They should be on-topic for the page they are on. Discussions about moderation are specifically forbidden. All spam will be deleted within a few hours and blacklisted on the stopforumspam database.

This site is cached. Comments will not appear immediately unless you are logged in. Please do not make multiple attempts.

Skip to toolbar