MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

The Analysis

Filed under: General — Downunder @ 12:02 pm Wed 13th June 2018

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think it was JP who announced late last year that,

“Some of us are getting a bit long in the tooth.”

And there’re veterans here, 20-25 years that I can see – any 30 year voices still out there?

Yesterday, somehow I found myself in the MENZ archives back in 1998 looking at a commentary which mentioned

The War Against Boys
How misguided feminism is harming our young men
By Christina Hoff Sommers

I didn’t realise how far back this text went but it stirred my literary side:

One of the trends in inter-generational writing is the reproduction of old stories into current times. More often this is a positive trend where we have someone seemingly unique and inspirational like Roald Dahl gaining perhaps an unfair degree of fame off the back of old stories.

It occurs to me that with the rapid rise of the internet the reproductive pattern might occur at a much faster pace, and seemingly inspirational voices on the net are not what they appear but offended individuals reproducing easily accessed literature.

That’s not necessarily the case but given a little thought I could easy see this being a negative influence rather than a positive one.

And when it comes to negatives and positives we’re well known for disagreeing with each other. As much as that has been discussed it possibly comes down to two sets of beliefs in that, change should be resisted and change is necessary ( putting aside our complaints about how we have been personally impacted – not an easy task for anyone considering the stories that have surfaced here)

When it comes down to analysis we take different roads;

Which ideology is driving the problem
Which law is misused, redefined, unexplained
Which language has new meaning and is deceptive
Which social behaviour or injustice is most damaging
Which Court Decision, Government Policy or Media Propaganda is Sexist

And we look at that both externally (internationally) and internally (domestically).

From a personal perspective I look back to a time at the NSMC (Northshore Men’s Centre) where it had become a collection centre for casuaulties from a new wave of radical female lawyers pushing the Feminist barrow in their secret court. Seeing a similar trend in Canada where their radicals in an even more subversive manner became judges’ secretarial-assistants we started to make international contacts.

Then the rise and destruction of UOF (Union of Fathers)

The splinter groups

Then the vacuum!

The great division – we want to do it our way. The political voices – it should be done this way.

We’ve drifted for a period, certainly since the demise of Clark’s Ministry … in the hope ‘it’ might just fix itself?

What I’m seeking here is not a discussion or a remedy but some reflection.

Considered points of view.
Where we went wrong.
What might we have done better.

Have your say but resist the temptation … someone is wrong on the Internet and it may be you …

Don’t cut out the little voices on this one.


  1. I wanted to press a like button but there isn’t one!

    Comment by A dad — Wed 13th June 2018 @ 10:04 pm

  2. @justcurious

    And sometimes people just don’t want to talk about it.

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 8th July 2018 @ 11:49 am

  3. Thanks for sharing.

    Comment by JustCurious — Sun 8th July 2018 @ 3:09 pm

  4. Poster questions

    Which ideology is driving the problem
    Which law is misused, redefined, unexplained
    Which language has new meaning and is deceptive
    Which social behaviour or injustice is most damaging
    Which Court Decision, Government Policy or Media Propaganda is Sexist

    the below identifies one that fits all above criterias

    The old lawyers adage that hard cases make bad law, perfectly describes the legislative process that lead to the present state of s59. For the sake of general principle of completeness, s59(4) does nothing more than unnecessarily restate the basic general principle of Police law, that the individual Policeman has a discretion as to whether to charge or not, and if charging, what to charge. Individual Police Officer, though bound by general directives by his superiors, is supposed to exercise this sort of discretion before every arrest, but few of the present generation of Police in New Zealand, seem to have any consciousness of that basic principle. In my view as a former Police Officer, that too is a failure of modern Police training. Notice also, that the s59(4) discretion applies to the prosecution discretion and it does not bind the court in any way.

    And provides a remedy

    Some years ago Police formed a policy largely based on expediency, to arrest all suspects charged with imprisonable offences. Time was when Police were required before arresting anybody to consider whether an arrest was necessary and in appropriate cases resort instead to the summons prosecution process. It is that policy that leads to a very significantly large number of people spending time in Police cells when a summons process would be equally effective but less convenient to the Police. The other police policy is an administrative policy applying to all “domestic violence” cases, that Police bail will not be offered. In my view, both these Police policies should have been seriously examined and qualified long before now, but I doubt that there will be much enthusiasm for that as the present policies are convenient and expedient to Police.

    Comment by JustCurious — Sun 8th July 2018 @ 3:43 pm

  5. How DID we get here!!..

    I bought a North and South magazine which had the headline ” IN PRAISE OF MEN”, May 2011, largely for my son who was in a relationship that had gone awry and is still being punished today.

    an exert,,..Not surprisingly female over achievement at school and university is being reflected in the job market but what’s gone largely unremarked is that at the same time, male pay has taken a hit. Inflation-adjusted incomes for men aged 30-40 declined from 1981 to 2006, while incomes for women in the same age group increased (albeit from a lower base).
    And yet Callister agrees the message is not that simple. Well qualified European men working as company heads or investment bankers, for example, are still doing very well indeed and their salaries have increased dramatically. Men still dominate in Parliament, Judiciary and other positions of power.The gender pay gap still stubbornly remain at about 1.3 percent.
    But he has been surprised by how far young European males have slipped educationally against their asian and female peers. Formally the biggest group doing university degrees, European men, despite their numbers have slipped to fourth behind Asian women, Women and Asian men.Even more startling is that 40 percent of all 18-19 aged asian girls are enrolled in degree level study, but just 20 percent of European boys.
    Society, he says, needs to figure out what it wants from gender equity, “People like the Human Rights Commission and Ministry of Womens Affairs say, look, it’s terrible that most builders are male, we have to have campaigns to change the balance. That’s fair enough, but if your’e trying to create gender equity in the trades but you dont care what’s happening in universities, then you’ve got a real problem”.

    A good article pointing out some of the problem this rapidly changing world has brought upon us.

    Now of course Women have high paid work in administration and the likes and men are still getting reasonably bad pay in comparison considering the work they carry out and the long hours they do.. I think amoungst the young women I know this has borne out an underlying disrespect for their fellow man,, maybe its somewhat subconsciuos but many aspects of our lives seem to be beating up on guys, like advertising making them look lesser, even in the eyes of children and representing males as homosexual in television programmes, I only use this example as there seems to be more of this than female same sex partners on tv.

    Comment by denise — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 12:37 pm

  6. PSSSS… the article was seven or eight pages long and written by Victoria Larson and further contributed by a Donna Chisholm,,,go North and South.. does the magazine still exist?

    Comment by denise — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 12:46 pm

  7. Further more ..
    another exert, Last year, Callister described a growing group of midlife men without jobs or partners who were not living with dependent children. Maori and Pacific men and those without formal qualifications, were over represented in the group, which he numbers at around 16,000.It is these mean that have borne the brunt of the changing labour market; their resulting joblessness making them less desirable as partners.

    “These men are really struggling because they dont fit into society that well. There are other things that low-skilled girls can do – including having babies – so they can be connected, but I am worried about these disconnected guys when society and the economy has turned against them”

    Paul Callister is an economist and researcher at Victoria University.

    Comment by denise — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 12:58 pm

  8. The last time North and South printed a story around some of us here they were sued by the administration and settled out of court for a large sum of money.

    The hostility toward dissadents goes unreported and is generally unrecognised in this country but it does happen and this is why there are such large gulfs in understanding the point of view of those people affected and those observing.

    Out of curiosity, how did you find this site?

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 1:07 pm

  9. Wow,,, thats a —–… I found this site when I was trying to find advice on my sons’ situation with his nasty ex and her ability to keep their daughter from her paternal family.

    I believe unequivacably

    Comment by denise — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 1:17 pm

  10. …that if a woman wants equality she has to prove that she can earn it just as a man has to in life. I have been a saw miller , firewood contractor alongside my husband who took the lead role always, he is a physics guy by trade and by trade I am an artist, but I generally clean the spouting and do the lions share of the hunting and gathering, my aim in life has always to be a useful human being.

    Comment by denise — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 1:21 pm

  11. @Denise but you may not make the link between your son and the middle aged unemploymed as a consequence of that situation.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 2:00 pm

  12. well yes, he falls into the category stated in the article as without formal qualifications between the ages of 30-40 made unemployed due to consequences over relationship excruciations and she as one whom had a child and is therefore supported and accepted by society.

    Comment by denise — Mon 9th July 2018 @ 2:19 pm

  13. Many males find themselves in a financial position that is untenable due to Child Support.
    They work and all the discretionary income left after paying bills is confiscated.
    The reward is they are also a excluded from there children’s lives.
    They give up, they give society the middle finger.
    They flee to other nations.
    They become homeless.
    They become benifit and drug dependant.
    They commit imprisonable offences.
    They suicide.

    Comment by DJ Ward — Tue 10th July 2018 @ 12:44 am

  14. Was in court a few weeks ago.
    Judge was provided documents to read.
    He said I don’t have to.
    Police was given same documents.
    they said we have been too busy we have not read them.
    When decision needed to be made Judge says law is clear
    Police affirmed the same that’s what the law says
    orders were made.
    twelve years of litigation – father finally was granted child’s care
    the next day, acting on anonymous report – police took child away.
    the following day father was hauled in court
    and the very next day, guess what?


    WE men keep thinking we are alone and in shreds.
    but the fabric of society is made of many threads.
    Wife, sister, girlfriend, mother, grandma, and the rest
    son, daughter, niece and nephew and cousins all the best
    five fingers to each hand
    only One fist to hold all the land
    how much force would it take to pry this hand open
    And yet how easy to make a finger broken.

    Comment by JustCurious — Fri 13th July 2018 @ 8:01 pm

  15. Another day I went in and saw a man in a cage
    Everyone else was in black and trapped in rage.
    Lawyer said to judge we need urgent hearing
    Judge replied – you know best than to ask that you non-being!
    There are just no slots available!
    Lawyer said – but it is his right inalienable!
    Madame registrar said earliest is November but only half a day
    Lawyer replied but we need at least three anyway!
    Judge says take it or leave it. Or best forget!
    Lawyer said what other day can we get?
    Madame registrar rolled her eyes and said nothing till mid next year, you heathen!
    The man in the cage said am I free to go then?
    But no one seems to have heard him.
    I did hear him loud and clear and it was no whim
    But maybe it’s because he was in my mind

    Comment by JustCurious — Fri 13th July 2018 @ 8:22 pm

  16. Outside the Court room lawyer said
    that judge is a fucking idiot.
    He needs to get laid.
    He did not like me insisting period.

    Did you hear him?
    He is just fucking grim.
    Anyways, that’s the best I could get
    For now – There is no more we can bet.
    Keep low and stay indoor
    Those cops will bait you galore
    If you keep cool, they don’t have a case
    so you better not let them give you a chase

    Call me or come and talk to me
    And make sure to sign that legal aid form too
    or I will sting you like a fucking bee

    Comment by JustCurious — Fri 13th July 2018 @ 8:47 pm

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Leave a comment

Please note that comments which do not conform with the rules of this site are likely to be removed. They should be on-topic for the page they are on. Discussions about moderation are specifically forbidden. All spam will be deleted within a few hours and blacklisted on the stopforumspam database.

This site is cached. Comments will not appear immediately unless you are logged in. Please do not make multiple attempts.

Skip to toolbar