A Warren Farrell debate
I have a problem with the unqualified promotion of Warren Farrell.
I read a couple of his books around the turn of the century when he came to New Zealand.
First let’s have a look at his history; lives in the US, got married, didn’t have any children. Went through a separation. Did a bit of a MGTOW thing. Became an author of male psychological texts. Got married many years later to a woman with children.
He has a history of involvement in support of Feminism and I suppose I’d call it a moderator in the battle between Feminism and the Men’s movement.
Here’s just one thing he says:
The best-selling magazines to men are Playboy and Penthouse. These represent men’s primary fantasy: access to as many beautiful women as desired without risk of rejection. The best-selling magazines to women are Better Homes and Gardens and Family Circle, representing the female primary fantasy: better homes and gardens and a family circle.
I’m just going to leave this here for now.
Have a think about that and you’re welcome to comment.
The excerpt on Farrell’s in the above post points out a very important factor, that Man’s manhood is of utmost importance to him and that Women like to family and surround themselves with a nice nest…also that Men and Women like to dream about doing…
I’ve seen a different position promoted in NZ by another psychology person who was a Hamilton MP but I don’t recall his name.
The feral motivations are sex for male and security for females.
Fantasy to me requires an input of information for the mind to imagine an outcome.
Am I different. Not that I haven’t read one but I have never purchased a playboy or a penthouse in my life. I’ve purchased plenty of other magazines on the basis of interest or usefulness.
A string of ‘beautiful women’ available for sex. It’s just not my primary fantasy.
WE need to stop pestering people with too many threads of the same conversation/topic/debate.
WE need to go past personal experiences (ggood to highlight the dynamics of a person’s particular case and the background behind their desire to get involved) and past opinions trench wars ( i know it all..I’ve seen it all… it’s been tired before…and all that mystic approach to suggesting information one refuses to divulge) and especially anything defeatist such as “we tried it, I was there, it did not work!!!!”
It’s good to know what work and what did not and what political climate, times, history, dynamics or eras these things did not happen. So we can reflect and correct our aim and strategies. Sadly even teh information suggested is never presented except to suggest a certain key word and a certain google search engine to reveal what the poster/commenters alludes to
However The evidence I can no longer ignore is those people are the most active on this site historically and yet, still presently and obviously have not one iota of progress to share except for a defeatist, divisive and name calling attitude that has no purpose but to create personnal emotive tendancies and unhealthy alliances.
And I am beginning to distinguish a pattern of misleading people and dividing the attentions away from any single sensible point of focus by replicating, duplicating and multiplying side topics whenever something begins to be of interest…
I do not know if the experience is similar for others but once one settles on a topic, the next day, there are “twenty” similar topics raised in different others posts.
I find it confusing, not progress oriented and a rather feminist approach to deconstruct any positive step towards a consensus…
Or are the men on this site so beaten up and traumatized by the success of the feminists campaigners that they are now utilizing their tactics among themselves thinking that is the only winning combination of deception available to achieve their aim?
As far as Warrel Farren… I do not believe it is of any interest for men to be seeking to invalidate his entire literature on the basis that some of his observations (specially earlier) may not be reflective of men everywhere but perhpas only of a very little circle of men geo-politically located in an island of media driven targeted advertising.
I accept it seems bias as he could have said that whilst most men a certain age were busy consuming penthouse and other pron litterature; the majority of women of the same age section were/are gym bunnies, health addicts and heavy duty consumers of beauty tips (surgery esthetic) and anorexia or boulimia inducive habits (xanax, appetite suppressors, diet, coffee, alcohol, drugs) and sexually promiscuity promoting (dildo, binge drinking…) techniques arising from their own version of target advertising media.
Nonetheless, to engage in such a debate is seemingly seeking to bypass any constructive input he Warren Farrell mau had has in his professional life and even perhaps any possible positive outcome from his observations and practices which could assist a person in better appreciating the dynamics of raising children and the position of men within his society and as society mutates and moves along the centuries.
Lastly it could be taken to show that whilst men in their early twenties to 30 are seeking frivolous affairs and simply to spread their seeds… women the same generation is more focused n spreading their legs open to those same men in the hope to catch a worthy idiot whom can satisfy their need to play house.
Needless to say now the age of exposure of porn is much earlier for boys with the internet and so if things were bad then for boys… the current epidemic of porn makes it twenty times more pernicious and dangerous for our future generations. Not adding any other issue affecting men and their ability to guide the younger generations. In teh old days it was called a generation gap… now awaday it is more of a state sponsored divide
ON the same token, as more boys/men are being pacified by bedroom porn, I am sure we are noticing a real trend of abuse and more violent/disrespectful behavior and attitude coming out of the younger female generation towards anyone and everyone.
If this is what you’re saying then it is something I’ve observed too.
In distinguishing though between posts and comments as many contributors call their comments a post.
If there is a particular comment that might offend certain personalities associated with the site a string of comments will appear removing that comment from visibility in the comments side bar.
Farrell is 75 years old. No doubt his position on some things has changed. In terms of hero worship probably not a great idea.
I doubt he’s going to do a critical analysis of himself. I can see the value in some reflection on what is worthwhile to us.
I watched the video that was linked to in a recent comment and couldn’t help thinking that some sectors would liken that to a Brian Tamaki performance in the Destiny Church environment.
No doubt some people have followed his concepts closely and I wouldn’t mind hearing those opinions. Without the willingness to share both the information and a view on it then I would be left with a decision;
Does that particular link make me want to go and look further.
The answer is no. I
waswasn’t inspired to read his books or look further.
*wasn’t inspired that should be
It’s Sunday morning,
I wake up,
Wipe the sleep from my eyes,
Is my imagination telling lies?
Yes, of course
Here on Menz
The frustrations still fly.
So, years ago I could see this circular event developing where we would arive back at the same place. Meaning that a number of people would arrive here in the same situation as some of us arrived in many years previous.
It’s one of the reasons I bother to be here. Not to be a thorn in anyone’s side or discouraging.
History is a circular event. Same circle in a different era of technology, and the pace is acelerating.
If I were to make a comparison on AD/CE history only, I might say,
In the last 50 years we have relived the historical 300 years between 300 and 600 AD.
@6 turning this into an inspirational site that other people link to?
Failure may be inevitable.
On Friday 14th June 2019, I attended the Shakti Lets Deal With Racism Conference. Timely and positive.
The live streamed videos are now available on their Facebook site. The sound is poor quality on these videos. (They may edit down videos with better quality sound in the near future and make these available.)
There was a real positive focus. About 500 people attended. (Maybe 450 women and 50 men?)
In general the aim is to look at all available options, face constructively the issues of racism and build a more inclusive society.
Who might ask for more?
There was some discussion about “white supremacists.
Generally very positive. Women asking to be heard, in a way that generally serves all of society.
I was curious that through the clamour of women asking to be heard, I didn’t hear any suggestion that white supremacists should be listened to, at all?
Maybe they have little of value to say?
Even so, human respect could be offered?
I guess that touched a nerve in me, as I had always felt that I had been offered only phoney respect in familycaught$.
My end conclusion, listen to everyone, offer basic human respect and then make my judgement.
In scale, the Shakti Conference had a similar number of attendees as the Henderson Men’s Issues Conference. Speeches were of a similar sociological quality.
The Henderson Conference was more tidily organised, but much of that was due to a smaller number of presenters, speaking individually.
The Shatki Conference covered issues where a larger number of speakers gave extra value and resulted in more panel discussions.
Men can organise things well, with sufficient resources.
Women can organise things well, with sufficient resources.
Jim Bagnall’s Child Support Conference was fairly well organised and put together on a very lean shoestring. Unfortunately, due to poor teamwork by the men’s movement, there were only about 30 attendees. So relatively little societal impact, despite Jim Bagnall’s sterling determination to make it happen.
Men don’t have to give up. But if we are not able to teamwork, then we may as well give up.
Sometimes our behaviours serve our detractors more than ourselves? Why do it?
We need to face our problems, full on.
As far as I can see, this means showing care for each other, rather than striking out in anger and frustration.
Take care out there and don’t be our own worst enemy. (This applies for women and for men.)
#10,,,Murray, I guess this drive for ‘inclusivity and diversity’ has been a massive insult to Men, I personally feel that they have been left behind and trodden on in the process, I distrust this wave of change as being a guise for certain thinking, it has not given this country enough consultation in a time where everyone is behind the eight ball as well an awl.
What you don’t know Murray, and you probably should know this now, is that Jim and I operated a trust in which he was insulated and I was the legal front.
They couldn’t get at Jim without tipping me over first, and believe me, they tried bloody hard to do that.
Towards the end when it came time to dissolve the trust, I would only sign off the dissolution in another solicitor’s office.
That never happened. In the end whether Jim got ripped off I don’t know, that then was his personal business.
@7 Boonie – my feelings exactly.
Consolidation is needed. Otherwise like the body of law one must search for interpretation in the interpretation act and then discover the body of terms used are in another body of legislation like lawyers and conveyancers act or in the case of how they can erect such abominies such as Ministry of vulnerable children, in the land transport act where they convert a birth certificate into a title of ownership for them and such stupidities as they chose to create on a whim.
WE seem to be following on the footsteps of those whose behaviour we wish to change… whether feminists or law breakers that make laws.
I prefer to use a thread as a poster and a commenter are one and the same except some people might distinguish them between original poster and follow on commenters.
Nonetheless a post is a post therefore a body of posts may make a thread and for further distinction, the original poster the poster and all other comments, from commenters.
Downunder 8 and 9
It’s your defeatist attitude and “I know it all been there and done that” that I deplore enormously.
I am certain you and Ewan have a lot to offer but I cannot help see the discomfort you have in people independently making inquiries or proposing actions which , in their own minds, are a must or required for us as a group of men with a common interest; and can lead us towards a more united front.
I cannot dismiss either of you because I know both of you have been at the battle front and like good ole veterans have enough scars and traumas for each and everyone of us.
I however also know that given the right timing and the right concerted effort and the proper unity all that we want/wish/desire and strive to wok for will be achieved and we can learn from the past.
Things did not work out in the past – we know that!
we are lucky to have that information to study so we can change what did not work.
Things did not work out in the past perhaps due to ta certain mentality and politics and policies prevalent in the psyche of the community precluding men from engaging fully into society as wished, demanded and required by any good citizen of any land and as ordained by God in the biological construct within which we were born into. AT THAT TIME
Case in point, I had a lawyer for almost ten years… And for ten years or so, he failed at everything he tried to do because he did know the procedures and he did not know the laws except to bark at the judge as if the possum inside the judge’s ears would fall given enough barking.
I had to study the law to talk to him because the bullshit he was spinning was simply no longer a thread but a certain rope. And I needed to knit myself a very heavy blanket. His lies kept me warm under the sun but at night I froze my balls off.
So I diligently studied and after study I went back to him to find out what he thought. And we entered into endless arguments. He was never satisfied until he had dismantled my every argument and even when I showed him the body of law I referred to, he was indignant enough to abuse me verbally and question my understanding or more likely my ability to grasp the law.
He was partially right… common sense and legalese do not match… So I took notes and kept coming back with more arguments until I knew he had to thread very deep to refute any argument or body of law I interpreted for him…
That’s when he became belligerent, abusive even more and completely dishonest and started spinning rope out of his ass simply to refute anything I might bring to the table…
I still persisted and insisted by going out and finding the precedents required to show him that the High Courts and the COurt of Appeal both agreed with my interpretations…
So he took a loaded cannon and started shooting at my knees with technical arguments, involving procedures and what the law allowed and did not allow and why … and blah blah blah…
Still I persisted and demanded what I wanted and his reply was the one that made me certain I no longer had anything to learn from him. He said to me “The courts will never give you what you want!”
I remember smiling thinking, “you got no idea!”
So I fired him and self represented… and lo and behold, “with the right judge and the right Lawyer for child and more importantly, at the right time, I found that God has preceded me in that court room…” Everything my lawyer had said, the Courts would never grant me, these same courts did and on the way out asked, “what else can we do to support you?”
The whole point of this rant is that everything at the right time… what did not work yesterday might work today with 1 millions of the effort required yesterday.
I see a lot of conceit, arrogance and fear in your posts/comments. But I know the conceit and arrogance and even the prophetizing is only a fear disguised of people succeeding where you have failed. It is not your failure.. It might have simply been the wrong time. Because has you succeeded, we might all be looking at you as our hero.
The key is to remain positive and remain constructive and to stop mystifying people and stop glorifying your selves though mystical search keywords in magical boxes…
You have been given great knowledge and it is your duty to share it with us for our own edification, learning, knowledge and appreciation.
In that respect, I do apologize for certain reactions of mine when confronted with the attitude I describe above. I have said unsavory words at times.
I can expect a few nasty short replies in return but know that through you, I am addressing any one with a sense of justice and honesty and those people like me needing clarity and resolution can no longer be fooled by emotive rubbish in retaliation.
#12 Downunder, I had heard the slightest echoes, but I still know nothing of the details. In other situations, I have seen the same set of teeth in operation and I have huge respect for their ferocity, ruthlessness and immorality.
So, thanks for helping Jim Bagnall in that endeavour.
I resent it, but that scenario and many others too, illustrate that NZ has a fairly crooked society, despite the public acting by the legal workers. Accordingly, survival requires descending to tactics that would be unnecessary in a society with reliable integrity of its systems. And that leaves huge problems for citizens who have not planned ahead. Vince Siemer has exposed these problems too.
#11 ……Murray, I guess this drive for ‘inclusivity and diversity’ has been a massive insult to Men
I agree, rhetoric alone does not make a fair system. Generally I see crooked legal workers as the enemy, far more than women. Too often both sides are ripped off. I have seen situations where only the woman was ripped off. I don’t like to see anyone being ripped off, especially where it impoverishes children’s development.
Many of these problems are developed from problems with mental health, deception, lack of skills. Gender usually isn’t the largest, determining issue in the problem.
So the enemy are the people who run that mangle and take improper advantage.
It is great to hear more about your personal walk through the nightmare. I encourage commenters as much as possible to author posts but often it’s the case that individuals find a sense of security in comments and some difficulty making the leap to an author on the site.
The hidden dilemma here is a subconscious barrier that stops men from being able to write because they’re trapped in their story.
I understand where you’re coming from. I too had a lawyer, for half of a hearing. She started it I finished it. When I dismissed my lawyer in front of the judge he ordered the recording device turned off.
If I may make an observation in relation to this particular comment and others you’ve made recently, it is the necessity to engage in informal fallacy as a platform to tell your story.
It’s not necessary unless the point of comparison is a necessity for you.
Thanks for your reply DownUnder
I admire your contributions, if anything I enjoy disagreeing with you.
I think it may be good to have a “downunder Post” whereby you can consolidate all your disparate threads and use it to address all the issues you raise as time permits or the situation arises.I think what you do is great and useful but it can cause confusion for some lazy old bugger like me.
Just a personal note.
I do have a lot to say but every day with its own story…depending on the topic… as that is what triggers the memory recalls… Sometimes telling of one self helps others unlock things in them or see themselves in a certain situation with a different perspective.
Whether they chose to share or not is nothing anyone can do anything about. For some hearing details about a particular experience may help them realize that indeed we are all in the same boat.The hats may be worn by different individuals but the experience is similar.
I do however would like to know more about your times as a “resident alien”, with UOF and your own particular insights as to what went wrong and what could have worked.
As per above, even if you could take the time and do the historical searches needed and collate all those links already on this site in one Thread/Post and add to it over time, we could use it for our own learning and understanding of this rather strange/intriguing/gloveless/helmetless/condomless/feminist-hating grumpy old fart you appear to be. 🙂
And it would do us a great service understanding finally how we can better the struggle towards the empowerment of men.
#17 Thanks JustCurious for your clear and forward-driving request:
……I do however would like to know more about your times as a “resident alien”, with UOF and your own particular insights as to what went wrong and what could have worked.
The MENZ website communicates vast numbers of scraps of text information.
Even though I was present at quite a few of the meetings “in the old days”, there is still much that I don’t know about what went on, let alone why.
Text conveys some information, but it generally lacks much body language and emotion.
Videos of talks or meetings may convey wider information, but still with many limitations. Both of these have the big advantage that they are canned and made available when and where needed, to as many people as choose to look.
In my experience, the deepest learning and understanding came when the meetings had finished, people let down their guard and random conversations flowed. Food and alcohol seemed to help, but really it was time together that did the real work. It does take a lot of time, to learn intricate issues, even from clear teachers.
If the teaching materials are confused and incomplete, then the time it takes to learn becomes huge and the incentive to learn drops to zero. We must improve the quality of our communications.
Those memories and learnings are extremely hard to pass on, let alone to many people.
Presently, nom-de-plumes and the lack of meeting in person form extreme barriers, that are not being overcome. Clique-iness is another barrier.
The need for generous sharing of information is as great now, as it ever was.
The people who suffer most if we fail to act together, are our children and likely their children. There is no greater incentive than that.
In the early 1990s accountancy firms were inviting American ‘oceans of money lapping at your feet’ speakers to NZ and selling tickets to their clients.
Unless you were in the commercial world at the time, you probably never got to see these guys in action.
Fertile teritory for the gullible, the greedy, and the lazy.
Now I see Warren Farrell doing the same thing;
‘Oceans of love lapping at your feet’
Fertile teritory for who?
But without any critical analysis of his work …
That’s what this post is about.
If anyone thinks the answer can be given to them, kiss the ground and pray for divine inspiration.
Here is an old post, that appears to be relevant to our present communications and teamwork difficulties…
I notice Farrell refers to the ancient population of mankind being engaged primarily in survival.
Going back to my outback Australian experience in 1980 I’d say this.
These aborigines arrived there 10-12,000 ago. Not last week.
It’s a harsh environment out there. And you can’t help but admire the primitive ingenuity.
But aside from that, they weren’t culturally ignorant animals. The amateur anthropologist in me looks at that and identifyies three main criteria.
I think it is a fairly reasonable proposition to say; if they didn’t have a stable cultural environment they simply would not have lasted that long.
The harsh environment might limit the ability to progress in technology and development. All we’ve really done is make survival easier for ourselves. When you overlay that with a different social structure that is not conducive with survival you’re actually on the road to self anililation.
hence the solar flare hope,,smiley face.
The preferred option, Mama, I believe, is space exploration. Don’t be surprised if that Just Curious fellow gets on your case about a defeatist attitude.
The flare is only a reset button.. how can one aim for the sky when you have concrete legs.
This is not a science site. I hesitate to throw in the comment on the post.
Nuclear fusion is only a moment away.
I might justify the intrusion with a Feminist quote;
The mother and child reunion is only a moment away.
Good one, I can hear that now, as a cave woman all I can get from the sky is the Sun and the moon, yet guys have been working on idea of fusion for a long time.
Coming back to Earth Jimmy, reality still offers concrete.
Where’s you’re faith in men, Mama?
Lockheed is already working on a truck size prototype that would power a city the size of Whangarei and running off a minimal amount of sea water.
I have plenty of faith actually, I just want to help protect that half of the species in the mean time.
Mama, if we are not mankind we would be two different species?
A scientist I can not recall the now thought the y gene may have been alien and the x ape.
Mama. Just between you and me, I think that was a first testament myth inherited from Egypt.
I think Farrell has constructed too many myths following his adventure into Feminism.
Successful societies have relied on the disposable male?
Take the Māori population post the battle with disease. They relied on a policy of pregnancy at the start of menstruation to increase their numbers.
In this situation the disposable woman was used to rebuild their numbers.
Boy Crisis might be a good political punch line selling door tickets but does his narrative stack up or is he making a living out of pretending NOT to defend feminism.
If our girls are being taught to be abusive, manipulative, demanding, disrespectful, etc of the male gender, is that a boy crisis or a girl crisis?
Is it a cultural crisis that can’t even sustain natural reproduction let alone sensible education.
Rousseau amongst his many contributions described love particularly by women as manipulation with a purpose.
That could be related to a social contract.
Does that fit with Farrell’s thinking?
What would he think of us today,,, a small excerpt about this guy for others who also want to know,, who is this guy…what really struck me here was about his concerns for child development and concerns of self interest,,, this is now a destructive force.
The concern that dominates Rousseau’s work is to find a way of preserving human freedom in a world where human beings are increasingly dependent on one another for the satisfaction of their needs. This concern has two dimensions: material and psychological, of which the latter has greater importance. In the modern world, human beings come to derive their very sense of self from the opinion of others, a fact which Rousseau sees as corrosive of freedom and destructive of individual authenticity. In his mature work, he principally explores two routes to achieving and protecting freedom: the first is a political one aimed at constructing political institutions that allow for the co-existence of free and equal citizens in a community where they themselves are sovereign; the second is a project for child development and education that fosters autonomy and avoids the development of the most destructive forms of self-interest. However, though Rousseau believes the co-existence of human beings in relations of equality and freedom is possible, he is consistently and overwhelmingly pessimistic that humanity will escape from a dystopia of alienation, oppression, and unfreedom.
Rousseau wasn’t primarily a philosopher as much a participant in the political proceedings.
More like some of British Writer/Political personalities that leaned more towards the origins of modern journalism.
That I think is where his credibility is; perhaps not a perfect solution but he was actually putting up the alternative.
If he was here now he might be writing about the circular nature of tyranny.
#35- nice !
straight to the point..
neither ideological nor philosophical
but a down to earth assessment of reality
#21 ~ you’ve nailed it. I must have the right glasses on today 🙂
“Resillient societies require stable environments.”
However having a stable governmemt may be the source of unstabilty in the environment.
The state support when misguided may act as a replacement to the community support and may inherently undermine the family construct instead of reaffirming the social contract and empowering the population in building a conscious and trusting and honest relationship with the state.
The erosion of social responsibilities from the population towards the state or the private “at cost” tends to be a disservice to the nation as a whole… society, in its various echelons, abdicated its various roles.
the conundrum is that more nursings homes and more daycares are being built.
And yet,in an ideal society, grand parents or another close family member should be the default child minders.
“If he was here now he might be writing about the circular nature of tyranny.”
Do you mean human folly and the adage “history always repeats itself for those who fail to learn from the past?”
However in an ideological society the grandparents or close family member may not be considered ideal….
@39 more that something good is not appreciated to the extent that a waiting tyrant eventually takes all the good work.
@40 can’t see what you’re relating that to, Mama.
Balanced against the financial relativity of the family to the economy.
How much does it cost to live these days?
Any successfull social contract needs a successful economic model.
We lost the plot on that one back in the 1980s
Why Dipstick Douglas has a knighthood is beyond me.
#40,,,Boonie,,,just curious says this above in #38,,And yet,in an ideal society, grand parents or another close family member should be the default child minders.
I have recently come to experience the cold hard bite of difference that is eating into the new parent generation, us older people , grandparents, aparantly have nothing much to offer. There seems to be some kind of blanket indoctrinisation happening and it is happening rapidly.
#43~ “We lost the plot on that one back in the 1980s”
we have not lost the plot.
WE still occupy the plot, but aimlessly.
IF the governments have indebted themselves to the banks
then the banks get to pay no taxes and commit usury.
Money is created but printed at the wrong end and it is limited
Interest is also created but never printed at the front end and it is unlimited
interest payments are designed to always overtake cash supply.
So every 7 years banks take all the cash back,
Then they overtake their mortgaged properties.
More people are homeless. A few are suddenly rich.
Some farmers dismantle the bbq and move to the city whilst others get drunk on roundup.
Local Builders leave home and family behind to find work whilst some get dizzy from ladder tops.
Without economic education and strategic planning as the frame to the politic construct for the improvement of the social and national welfare; there cannot be an educated social participation.
That might be the cause of the successful economic failures and may even explain some of the social
connotations we have been wondering about, suicide, divorces. alcoholism, drugs, youth crimes, and transgressives laws all contributing to unseen economic pressures on each and every child, man , woman.
The question may be how to best redirect ourselves towards a common economic goal fostering the family at the center of national development?
Instead of bemoaning an arrested development;
To me, all the symptoms above reveal that we, as a nation, are simply in a value crisis.
Sanctity of life values, Family Values, human values, religious values, integrity moral and intellectual honesty and ethical standards and duty to uphold truth and justice by each and everyone….
All those seem to have been replaced by right by contract instead of right by justice.
Dreaming on a rainy day~
@44 a social/personal observation
Twenty years ago the grandfather had the bulls eye on his forehead.
I recall a lady, although not her name, starting an organization called grandparents raising children.
Now, the target is on your forehead too.
Should you isolate money from the list of values to be understood?
No money Money
Not enough Money Enough Money
Want more Money More Money
The most Money …
Almost defies logic. Do you think we’ve got too binary about it?
Money… the source of all evils
Finances.. the paved road to independence
Debt… the road to hell paved with good intentions
Read a book once about this guys researching investment in stocks and pot(belly)folios.
He spoke to a few wealth managers and financial advisors and the end question was always:
“Which of these recommended stocks do YOU invest YOUr money IN?”
Turns out none of them had any money to invest.
In fact their job is to sell stock they have been recommended.
#49 Money… the source of all evils
They went into the desert and lived without money but I see they still came up with seven deadly sins.