Protection Orders and how much Protection do they offer with digital age
Hi Everyone and have just joined as looking for advise regarding protection orders.
After a 2 day hearing I got a Protection Order against my ex wife which covers my new Fiancée, 2 children in my care aged 12 & 10 & myself. Before this my ex had been very aggressive which resulted in a number of attacks against my partner & myself with the final one been assault charges laid against her for attacking myself.
After this event and waiting for 6 months plus 2 days in Court we got the Protection Order. The issue I have and where I need help is that since this time the ex has filed numerous actions in the Family Court and each affidavit that she files is full of intimidating serious allegations, harassment & lies. We have been told that nothing can be done with all of this abuse and the ex has a right through law to file such papers and in due course will be tested in front of a Judge but they are serious and include such things like my new partner killed her previous husband, filed fraudulent insurance claims etc etc of which none are true.
To stop the Court cases or to slow them down I agreed that the children need care & protection as they suffered abuse from her and now are in need of trauma counselling. The Court is now the guardian of the kids and they are in our full time care.
What has happened now though is that the ex is now emailing the kids lawyer, OT lawyer, OT social workers, her parents & our oldest son who is 30 telling them all the same hateful lies. She is been told by the Judge that she is obsessive and this shows as these emails are very intimidating & threatening. I have gone to the Police and laid a complaint of breaching the PO. They have said that as she never emailed us directly then it is not a breach but the ex is a bully and say if this was done in the workplace and someone was spreading rumours around then they would be held to task for this as again was never directly to the person they were doing the rumours over so what is the difference.
I need helpful legal advice and case law that I can quote so that finally the PO can actually protect us from both physical & emotional harm/abuse.
Thanks all who read this
Your difficulty as I see it is believing in the protection order.
These things are a knee jerk piece of law from last century but they are the Family Law Sections vital legal instrument.
They were intended and mostly have been used against men.
They were never intended to be an alternative mental health system for unwell females.
I’m also not sure if the site has even heard of a man getting a protecton order before.
It does raise the question as to whether your ex is getting adequate medical and mental health care.
Comment by Evan Myers — Mon 4th March 2019 @ 3:03 pm
Thx Evan and the Judge has ordered the ex to get a full psych report done plus to expect at least a year of counselling before they even let her have supervised visits with the kids. The judges words were “she needs a full engine rebore” but this has not started yet so expect in a few months and the attacks continue and not sure if will stop at all
Comment by palmie — Mon 4th March 2019 @ 3:25 pm
@2 A couple of points to be aware of Palmie
– the site is not private, and is monitored by participating agencies.
– it will likely still be available when your children are older.
My experience in these situations has not seen any happy endings. I see your children are of a social media age, where they can be contacted by their mother. That’s a recipe for disaster.
In most cases that have been dissected here the children have been in the care of the mental health problem and the father with the protection order.
It’s not easy to appreciate the depth of these problems in a post and a quick read, but I know they’re very real for you when you’re stuck with this in your life.
I’m wondering if the digital communications law is perhaps a better option than a complaint via the protection order.
The court of course will expect you to be playing the game their way regardless of how long that takes or the financial and emotional impact on you and those around you.
Comment by Downunder — Mon 4th March 2019 @ 3:48 pm
If someone says nasty things it is more a reflection of them than their target. Most people will see that. With people like that, don’t get drawn in to their dramas. It sounds like defamation but is it worth pursuing that with someone if they have a mental illness?
Comment by Frank — Mon 4th March 2019 @ 3:49 pm
Hello Palmie
Going to the police over a matter like this is problematic. They deal with the criminal court which means any evidence you have must be beyond reasonable doubt. If she is writing material which is defaming you or your partner then take it to a civil court. Hit your partner where it really hurts, in the pocket. For around $100 you can take the case to the Small Claims Court and sue for $5000 claiming compensatory damages for injury to feelings and Exemplary damages in order to punish her.
Crimes must generally be proved “beyond a reasonable doubt”, whereas civil cases are proved by lower standards of proof such as “the preponderance of the evidence” (which essentially means that it was more likely than not that something occurred in a certain way… ie convincing a judge more than 50% that your in the right).
The tort (wrongful act) she has committed is defaming you to 3rd parties. Put her in the frying pan and see how she copes. It puts the onus on her to produce evidence that what she said is correct. It won’t cost you much money if you fail to convince an adjudicator but it will surely make her think twice before committing any further shenanigans.
I am not a lawyer but have taken smart arses to court and won on several occasions. I can therefore tell you that the Small Claims Court is good way to deal with people who lack integrity. Good luck
Comment by triassic — Mon 4th March 2019 @ 10:46 pm
I agree with your bottom line triassic, civil litigation is for people who lack integrity. My experience of mental health candidates is that they see the engagement as a win. The conflict is a bonus. They have got the attention they want which generally makes matters worse rather than better.
Of interest is a different strategy from the court than I’ve seen before; the children have been removed to the custody of the court and the foster parents looking after the children happen to be the father and his fiancée. That’s a strange mix of legal identities.
The mother’s behaviour is post this, and is an attack on the ‘step mother’. Civil litigation would probably have the mother double-down given this is a scrap she wants.
The question I’m seeing asked by Palmie, though is the value of the protection order. They’ve never worked. A blunt instrument to beat people up with and not solve the problem.
I’m also looking at the situation. The children are with the right parent, albeit a strange way to get there. The court ordered it. And the strategy and their wellbeing is threatened.
The police complaint looks at the digital trail being outside the scope of the protection order.
I come back to the digital harm legislation. If the police can look at whether an MP’s text is a threat to life or wellbeing, then I think it’s fair to ask some similar questions here.
Perhaps that complaint is better directed at National Headquarters.
Is the behaviour harmful to the wellbeing of the children’s situation and ‘the court ordered’ care givers?
Is the behaviour undermining the operation of the court?
Perhaps that’s the fast track to getting mental health treatment for mother if it’s not available through the Family Court.
Comment by Downunder — Tue 5th March 2019 @ 9:47 am
Thinking back to the days of the Guardianship Act, there were police powers within the act.
When Boshier was PFCJ and refusing to enforce his courts orders he declared that a criminal matter for the police.
The police declared that was now the job of Family Court and their powers were an unnecessary relic which eventually disappeared when the Guardianship Act was replaced.
Perhaps it’s time to consider new approaches.
Comment by Downunder — Tue 5th March 2019 @ 10:04 am
What happened to the vexatious litigant sections?
Do they still exist?
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 6th March 2019 @ 7:08 am
I think you might be thinking too much.
You and your family are under siege but you are expecting help from the systeme and you will get none.
IF she gets a good lawyer who can tamper her, get her counselling and get her back straight enough to act as if she has any remorse and has suddenly seen the light that her behaviour was not in the best interest of your children and that she has mended her ways; the courts, in the best interest of your children will have no option but to give her access and over time increased care.
IF the Courts are guardians, you will have an endless stream of interlopers in your life and every decision that needs making has to be made by the Courts…
Between raising young kids, a separation with your ex and a new fiancee…. I got to say, your mental and psychological health is one to mind very carefully.
You are likely to loose both kids and fiancee if this madness continues.
You are in a nightmare of catastrophic proportions…
However, if you think full custody is the only way forward, you have, even after all that has happened, about 65% chance of stopping all contact with mom.
Your ex would have to work ten times harder at upsetting everyone for that to happen.
If you are lucky, and have not lost mind, heart and soul and kids and fiancee and job and support, maybe, just maybe, in a bout 2.5 to 5 years, you might see an end to this madness.
It is true that she did not appreciate you and had taken you for granted and was treating you like shit. But you moving on on her is the only crime she is able to record and she will punish you with furor. And if you have happened to be unfaithful leading to this new relationship, you have made yourself the worst type of ennemi a man can have.
Part of her actions are simply meant to keep her memory constant in your life but the other part is a clever campaign of destabilization of your new relationship.
Advice: Get out of the Courts… find a way to make peace… fight for that way to make peace ASAP and get the cops, CYFS and the courts out of your life.
The most harm will come out of their involvement.
Comment by JustCurious — Thu 7th March 2019 @ 1:55 pm
Men & woman get treated differently
in NZ courts, why is thier a male
assault female charge
(MAF) & a female assault male
charge(FAM) which carries a
lighter sentence than (MAF)
Shouldn’t it just be assault,
is a MAF charge sexest? I think
it is.
Comment by Equal justice — Fri 8th March 2019 @ 6:48 pm
Thx Downunder and have taken your advise about the digital harm legislation as took this on board and using this also to stop her along with the PO. Police are now interviewing her as first up they were doing nothing until I complained so will see what happens.
Comment by palmie — Fri 8th March 2019 @ 11:25 pm
Hi Just Curious and agree under siege. I have a very supportive Fiancee who only wants to see the best for me and my children and thank god for her strength as I believe any other woman would have folded and left by now so I can say love can conquer all whatever the outcome.
Comment by palmie — Fri 8th March 2019 @ 11:28 pm
Nice that you are making progress Palmie for now, but it’s never over.
Your children are of an impressionable age, especially for alienation. Their friendship associations are usually based on other children with similar circumstances.
If your kids break down at school they can be receiving counseling without your knowledge.
You do your best and hope.
Comment by Evan Myers — Sat 9th March 2019 @ 8:23 am
Equal Justice @10: Yes you are correct that men and women are treated differently in NZ Courts. Even for crimes that are not gender specific, men are almost always treated more harshly than women in sentencing and during proceedings. Men are generally held to higher standards of behaviour than are women; for example, a woman might scream threats to a man and she won’t be prosecuted by police when a man would for shouting exactly the same things, or even if that happens in a Court hearing the judge is likely to treat the woman compassionately and the man harshly.
A number of our criminal laws are gender-specific and those laws all discriminate against men, e.g.
Crimes Act 2004:
– s194 male assaults female;
– s198 rape;
– s178 infanticide;
– s204A and s204B genital mutilation;
– s126G intimate recordings.
Then there are many clauses in other laws that also discriminate against or disadvantage men, e.g.
– s17, s18, s19, s20 of the Care of Children Act 2004 (awarding guardianship as of right to mothers but not to all fathers);
– s7, s8, s18, s21, s22 and s26 (and pretty well the whole lot) of the Status of Children Act 1969;
– s17A of the Equal Pay Act 1972;
– Adoption Regulations 1959;
– s7 (1)(a) of the Child Support Act 1991;
– Parental Leave and Employment Protection Act 1987;
– s49 of the Family Proceedings Act 1980 (pertaining to paternity orders);
– Part 3(1) of the Camping-Grounds Regulations 1985;
– s81A of the Corrections Act 2004;
– Criminal Investigations (Bodily Samples) Act 1995: Schedule of Relevant Offences.
In comparison, there is no Act or clause that we have been able to find that discriminates against or disadvantages women.
However, you are not correct in referring to a ‘Female Assaults Male’ offence. There is no such law. For a woman who assaults a man Common Assault would be the crime, but Male Assaults Female carries twice the maximum penalty.
Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Sat 9th March 2019 @ 10:00 am
@14 Common assault is not a crime, it’s an offence, and it is an important distinction.
Comment by Downunder — Sat 9th March 2019 @ 3:27 pm
@15: How’s that important?
Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Sat 9th March 2019 @ 11:00 pm
In pleading guilty to a lesser offence and in matters of exclusion when you have been convicted of a crime.
Comment by Downunder — Sun 10th March 2019 @ 7:35 am
Agree with “JustCurious”.
Disentangle yourself from the courts and the system as much as possible.
They are not there to help and ultimately only contribute to you grief.
As far as the mad ex’ is concerned, keep her at distance as much as possible.
JustCurious is right in that creating conflagration and being the centre of attention is what floats her boat.
I have an ex’ much like you’ve described.
Her whole goal was to target me and bring as much grief to my doorstep.
She was the one that initiated the breakup of the family so there was no “woman spurned” revenge explaination. She is just mentally ill – end of story.
It took along time for fc to realise she was mad as a hatter but when they eventually did things started going easier.
Things she did included setting IRD & CS on me by making false declaration about income, attempting to find my address and send her thug boyfriend around to ‘have a cup of tea’, make mad rants to family members about me that would listen, stalking my partner, ignore parenting orders to prevent me seeing the kids …. theres a long, long list.
May take a while with everything she is doing, but my suggestion is to look at her as you would an aggresive wild animal – best to stay well away from it.
Also don’t buy into it’s bs and get caught up in it, it’s an aggressive wild animal – its just what it does and it’s unlikely to change.
1 Keep it at a distance.
2 Try to remain calm and objective about everything
3 Do not engage with it’s b.s.
Those three rules made my life bliss (compared to previous years of drama with the ex’)
Good luck and remember the system is not your friend.
Comment by Hillbilly — Sun 10th March 2019 @ 2:02 pm
Thanks hillbilly….
A year ago, I would have clashed with your advice.
But it is truly the only way forward.
to poster 1
I think I might just have recently awoken up to a very long self inflicted nightmare.
I lost my rose tinted glasses… so please do not take this as advice… I guess it is posted for those after you that will refer to this post for their own personal search for guidance when faced with similar dynamics.
I remember a good friend giving me the same advice as hilbilly had. and I remember rebelling and saying “no, I am not him. My ex is not the same as his ex. My kids are not the same as his kids.”
I wish looking back at it now that I had paid more attention to the dynamic and not personalized the issues.
I Call the system a quagmire, a despicable and fetid world where children do not belong and the lay of the land is so treacherous even those guiding you must sacrifice as many lives as they can to guarantee their own safe passage.
To be in such an environment and expect a solution from such a system whereby the only solution that can ever be obtained must come from you as parents putting your hearts together to carve that solution out of your own stubborness, prejudice and hurt; is akin to squeeze a rock and expect water to gush out of it.
One is likely to die of thirst surrounded by water.
And in fact, one is simply inviting buzzards and other vultures to prey over the sanctity of chilhood.
But for your kids, a solution must be carved now, not tommorow, not in a year and not in five years.
Otherwise
The kids grow up in the system whilst the parents loose everything to the system…
Only the system(quagmire) wins and us parents keep feeding it the blood and innocence of our children.
Cops get paid, lawyers, counselors, psychs, social workers… everyone gets paid.
But their jobs is not to protect you or set you free.
Theirs is to give you the impression that they can but work diligently against every expressed stated goal to protect and serve. Their only provision is a disservice.
What happens to the kids is worth looking at.
The lawyer for child interviews them outside of our presence
So does the social worker and the psychologist and then the judge leading to hearing.
That embeds your child in the parental conflict.
What do parents do (vindictive et scornful parents?)
They have only two goals
1~Destroy the new relationship (So they can be vindicated and claim you have been rejected by the new partner)
2~Destroy your relationship with the kids (vilify you long enough to validate their state of mind that you are such a bad parents your own children have/must reject(ed) you.)
That is the dynamic that must be recognized…
The system is the best way to achieve both goals and their every step is designed to muddy the waters for you…
How do you shield your kids from the conflict?
Find a compromise.(they will never compromise and when they do it is only to chip away and undermine your care and custody)
What if there is no compromise?
Relocate>
What if you cannot relocate?
Help her find a new lover who does not want kids and wants to emigrate overseas.
But you must cut all ties… Come what may…
Comment by JustCurious — Mon 11th March 2019 @ 1:49 pm
#19 it’s just not that simple.
There’s bunny boilers out there that don’t give up.
Some belong to political parties and have better access to knuckle-dragging lawyers and corrupt judges.
Trying to make shared parenting work under these circumstances is a nightmare that attracts every feminist manhating bitch that thinks you shouldn’t be involved.
What we have fought hard against is mothers that step over the line and hurt their own children to attack you.
This is where the Family Court has failed miserably in protecting children.
These situations are always dynamic with so many variables. You don’t know what is going to happen until it’s done it, and even if you manage a reasonable control over your own circumstances your not in control of anyone else’s mental health or ideological bent.
Not to mention a conveyer-belt of law changes and strategic approaches.
How many guys are the initial applicant to the Family Court?
Not many, and the majority of men are stuck with having to deal with this to some extent.
Comment by Downunder — Mon 11th March 2019 @ 2:12 pm
We’re playing by two different sets of rules.
Feminist expectations;
1. If you’re not getting your way or you want revenge rark it up and get yourself a FREE court case.
2. Tell a Family Court judge what you want and expect to get it.
There’s another large variable in individual cases and that’s the father’s relationship with his children.
Comment by Evan Myers — Mon 11th March 2019 @ 2:43 pm
@20 and @21 — you are both right…
I have to say the old saying women raise the best men is still appropriate.
The state makes sure, your every emotional, mental, psychological and spiritual resource will be evaluated, assessed, abused and tested.
In the end they might even give you an accolade for your participation.
Out of this, if anger, depression and disappointment have not destroyed you.
One is bound to be the best of men, with a certificate of credibility (the measure of one’s sacrifice)but no bank account to deposit it in.
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 12th March 2019 @ 12:07 pm
#22
“I have to say the old saying women raise the best men is still appropriate.”
Bollocks.
Comment by golfa — Tue 12th March 2019 @ 4:45 pm
@22 I’m not sure what brings you to the conclusion that women raise the best men. Or how it is meant to be interpreted in relation to this post.
Probably what’s more concerning is the relationship between sick women and children. They can regard their own children more like inanimate objects rather than live human beings.
That is not a pleasant experience to deal with, and probably more relevant to this situation.
Comment by Downunder — Tue 12th March 2019 @ 6:25 pm
@24——- What does not kill you make you stronger.
The best fathers often turn out to be fathering children with the worst of mothers.
The best husbands/boyfriends often are those taken for granted and abused by mischievous women.
They teach us patience, love and forbearance…
And the state makes sure everytime we err in anger, we get brought back in line.
And this until we polish our anger into eloquence whilst still seething inside.
Certain women see their children as parts and parcels, mere possessions.
They cannot be taught to revisit their vision.
If the relationship breaks down, it is her and the world against him
And she will corrupt anything and pollute everything to validate her perspective.
Those are the best teachers for men
Comment by JustCurious — Tue 12th March 2019 @ 7:44 pm
#25 You shouldn’t post on the the internet when you’re high or drunk.
Comment by golfa — Tue 12th March 2019 @ 10:07 pm
#25: I understand what you’re saying and there may be some truth in it in some cases. But one could equally argue that violent, wife-bashing men produce the ‘best women’. Probably not, in general. What actually happens is that abused men and women can become bitter, unable to participate in relationships with trust and emotional intimacy, and not infrequently develop long term mental illness. It’s true that men are much more often than women abused by the system funded largely through men’s industry, while women are seriously abused more often than men by violent partners (though the proportion of such women is quite small).
Comment by Man X Norton — Wed 13th March 2019 @ 8:09 am
He’s back in the same place again.
If I accept reality it makes me one of those.
If I aim for an imposible utopia my fantasy land allows me to deny what happened to me.
There’s two problems here.
If everyone lived like this it would be choas.
The adopted pretense doesn’t help people who come here looking for help.
It might occupy some minds escape but it doesn’t do much more than that.
Comment by Evan Myers — Wed 13th March 2019 @ 10:37 am
~27~
Thanks Man X.:-)
Yes the other side of that argument could be taken to mean
“treat them mean… keep them keen.)
But of course this is addressing the dynamic of a loose cannon using the system to destroy someone else’s life…using and including her own children’s.
~26~
You are right Golfa, I am drunk and high on lucidity.
I have seen the system from top to bottom and I know one thing for sure. No one wins…
28~Ewan thanks for the parade-hoax… well put…
Comment by JustCurious — Wed 13th March 2019 @ 1:27 pm
@27 You can see the point of view, but would you consider it an example of perfection, a Godly perspective, something out of a religion rather than a practicality that deals with our contemporary situation?
Comment by Downunder — Thu 14th March 2019 @ 11:29 am