Why MR/FR Groups Fail
The following comments were left recently on a private message-board. I have the author’s permission to post it here, though he has asked to remain anonymous. There are some small and obvious changes I had to make to honour his wish.
Another poster at this message-board has said he believed an MRA organization could be made to work. A lot of people over the last 40 years have agreed with this statement. None of them actually accomplished anything of importance, but they started out with the belief they could. The best of them got some publicity, and from time to time made changes affecting a man or two, but the feminist steam-roller never so much as slowed.How well I know. Been there; done that.
I was active as an individual from 1978 until 1993, and from 1984 till 1993 I supplied no-fee counseling services from my home to divorced and unwed fathers, my Real Daughter did a statistical sampling when she was in the University and estimated I must have worked with over 1,600 men, and a very few non-custodial women (since their problems are virtually identical.) From 1984 till 1987, when a stupid, ignorant bastard broke it up because we didn’t do things his way, I was both counselor and spokesman for the board of directors of a Father’s Rights group. I also read a lot, and studied other groups to see why no one could get any serious participation.
The reason I like the marriage strike and this message board is because it doesn’t matter if we men agree on things. As long as the general trend is a collapse of marriage, and that is indeed the current trend, the feminists are guaranteed to lose, the only question is what language we will be speaking next and how many will be killed when this nation is destroyed. I like to fantasize that we can fix the nation, cast out the vicious man-haters, restore the family as the building block of our society, and return to the Constitution, but I realize that is not rational to think so.
Here, I am going to write some of the basics that I learned about MRA groups and why they have always failed, and why they will always fail, no matter how brilliant and dedicated the men involved may be. Hint: they always die from internal illnesses.
[I]. A REFUSAL TO STUDY HISTORY. Very few men who found MRA/FR groups bother to talk to those who came before. The argument goes like this: “I don’t want to talk to you. You accomplished nothing, so you are a loser. I can learn nothing from a loser like you.” Yes, at times, they use that sort of language.
Already at this stage, they are 100% guaranteed to fail. They not only have to re-invent the wheel. They have to first learn how to walk; discover the cave as a residence; discover clothes and fire; and find a supply of food before they can even think of something advanced like the wheel. Every step of the way, it is fight, bicker, and quarrel, and they are merely relearning the most basic elements of what has been tried dozens of times before. Most groups never reach the wheel stage.
There is no time for this. For forty years, the average MRA/FR organization has only lasted an estimated 18 months before some know-it-all, who almost never does anything personally, breaks it up.
And, of course, the founders do not always avoid terminal mistakes at the most basic level.
This is usually a subset of “I am special and different. Everyone else is a loser, so of course they failed. Since I am special and different, I will succeed where the losers all failed.”
[II]. LETTING WOMEN HELP. Here, on x.com, it doesn’t matter, since we don’t have to actually do anything as a group except help X keep his Internet service working. The function here is simply to convince men that marrying AW on a business-as-usual basis has a high probability of destroying their lives, and making their children’s lives equally miserable. There is room here for those who want to find and marry the extremely rare Lydia; live as a solitary bachelor; bring in a FW; move to a foreign country; or become a sex tourist. Every single AW who doesn’t obtain a wage slave to kick around and divorce is another victory for all men. Even if they manage to take away X’s services forever, he has already created an excellent cadre to carry on the work underground.
In an MRA/FR group with real goals, female participation is the kiss of death. This is not intuitive, but it is reality. I am going to tell what happened in our FR group, but I contacted other groups to see how things went with them. Most of those in groups that accomplished NOTHING proudly said they had women helping, and they also sadly admitted they had a constant number of suicides among members. Our suicides dropped to zero once we ousted the women.
[a]. The women, mostly second wives or girl friends, who attended meetings, demanded half of the group’s work be to help women, in the name of equality. Women already have the Army; Air Force; Navy; Marines; National Guard; State Highway Patrol; State Bureau of Investigation; Sherriff; City Police; DHS; the local DV center; and the entire Federal and State Budgets at their fingertips. Men have nothing except imputed payments for this and that and threats of jail if they can’t pay. Our annual budget was probably around $200. Yet, these fiends insisted we had to be ‘fair’.
[b]. They demanded we not allow men to whine; men are “supposed to act like men.” See suicide info above. After we (okay, I, under authorization of the State President) got rid of the women, our meetings emphasized counseling techniques and suicides dropped to zero.
[c]. The minute anyone attempted to enforce group bylaws, which generally meant telling an obstreperous woman to sit down and shut up, other men would do a great imitation of Don Quixote and rush to the attack against the vile brute who actually dared to seek justice for MEN. (For those unfamiliar with classic Spanish literature, Quixote was a senile, doddering old fool on a knightly crusade in his private world of dementia, and could not tell the difference between a windmill and the enemy, nor between a horrid female fiend and a woman of flawless purity.)
[III}. MEN ARE INCAPABLE OF COOPERATING TO STAND UP TO WOMEN. This is the ultimate reason MRA/FR groups are inevitably doomed to fail. Men simply cannot organize to stand up to women. Not now; not in the Greek Empire; not in the Roman Empire; not ever.
No, I am not contradicting my statement that in Mexico men cooperate to keep women under control. Men can do that. But when women once take control of the entire system and raise a generation of children, men can’t get it back. It it were possible, we would still be speaking Ancient Latin or Greek.
edited — This almost shouId be a separate thread, but I will tack it on here, because it’s relevant to some types of groups. There may be books out on this sort of stuff; if so spend the money and read them BEFORE you start such a group. Even if you wish to start a Political Action group, you may find most in attendance may be seeking help with legal issues, and essentially be forced to service those needs to keep people coming.
If the group you start is involved in helping men with divorce or false sex abuse issues, there is a need to have a competent volunteer legal researcher. Most attorneys really don’t know all that much about these topics but they will charge you $100+ an hour to mess up your case beyond redemption. A man who gets a heads up on how these issues are treated in his state by the judges has a good head start. Also, he can spot an incompetent attorney and fire her before the case is lost. Most attorneys only know that she gets the kids and he gets the shaft, and where to find the standard forms for their bar.
The problem is, you need to do this without actually practicing law. You can teach men what the courts look for, and you can teach them how to prepare for a hearing as a generic thing. What you can’t do is give them legal advice for their specific case. If you are clever and knowledgeable, this is easy. Attorneys skirt the law all the time. I would explain at meetings, or in the newsletter, or one on one, what one had to do to deal with common issues in a usable way.
I was ready for this task. Not only am I a very fast reader. I also took Business Law for my Accounting studies, but also took a number of Criminal Justice courses as electives. My Business Law instructor made us write briefs, just like she did in law school. The State University had you answer multiple choice answers; the CPA exam made you write briefs, so I aced Bus. Law on the Exam. But, even better, I understood and was able to utilize precedents and explain them to fathers in need of information. You need someone like me.
With some trepidation, I sent an order for advance sheets (weekly paper back including state supreme and appeals court rulings for several states) to West Pub for our area Court reporter. It includes all the cases that can be presented as precedents. I wasn’t sure if non-attorneys could subscribe, so I signed it with my CPA, which I never used for any other purpose, and they accepted it. For years, I at least scanned every case in all those books, not just the divorce cases. This develops an understanding of the oxymoronic judicial mind.
It is a serious crime to practice law without a license. Never, never make out any court papers for a man, no matter how desperate he is. Once, a man called me up, stating he was completely broke, and had only a couple days to answer a petition and wanted me to help him make out papers. I refused, telling him I could not do that, since I was not a licensed attorney. He whined and begged, and finally ended up offering me $100 which he had just said he didn’t have, for making out those papers. Obviously, he was a detective assigned to get me arrested for practicing law. I assumed local attorneys had taken note of a certain number of men who came to their offices with files prepared ready to press a defense, and decided to try to nail us. Beware!
An example. Suppose a man has two kids, age 3 and 4. The typical incompetent attorney will set up visitation maybe a few hours on the weekend, and maybe one night a week, which may be correct for babies. Once you get a final court order, it is an uphill battle to change anything. Fast forward, when those kids are 15 and 16 years old, and that visitation plan is no longer relevant, and you should be able to have them all or half the summer. Or, Mommy says they can’t come because they have school activities. So, why the h e l l can’t you take them to school activities? If you thought to do certain things when they were babies, you can. One simple choice is to specifically state in the original settlement that both parents will attempt to modify ‘parental access’ issues as the children mature or someone moves, rendering parental access details no longer relevant, and if they are unable to do so, it is agreed that the issues can be opened in court to resolve it. Otherwise, the court will say ‘res judicata’, which means the case was settled years ago, so screw you if you dumb attorney didn’t realize babies grow up and plan for it.
I am hoping there are books today which spell this stuff out for you young guys if you start a group. But, in those days, we were working to pioneer such concepts. I could, of course, write a book on such details, but hope someone has because I am not going to.
My point is, these are the sorts of things you must master to have a successful group, unless you can start a pure political activist group. I am rather doubtful about such a miracle, which is why I tend to presume aid for men in need.
I recommend never bending the law when helping men. It’s tempting, but as men you are not forgiven your trespasses. Anything immoral or illegal you do will be spread all over the media, and no good can come from it.
Only one time did I engage in manipulative advice. A man called me from maybe 150 miles away, and said he had moved back from Florida with his two babies. He wanted a divorce, and his wife, who was part of the drug scene and had stayed in Florida, thought she might come and fight for custody, not because she really wanted the kids, but because she thought living 1500 miles away, she would never see them again.
I told him, offer her round-trip bus tickets for three years. He said, “Well, that doesn’t sound right to me. I shouldn’t have to do that.”
I agreed with him, but asked if he wanted the kids or preferred to see them raised by a druggie, and told him that as a druggie, she would probably never bother to come. Putting it that way, he saw my point. I asked him to let me know, but no one ever does. However, the next year I got a call from a man in the same faraway place, who told me he had no idea why he was calling me, but a fellow worker had told him when he heard that man was also getting divorced, “Call this guy the first thing or you will be sorry.” I took that as a statement that he got his kids. And when I realize those babies are now adults, raised by a decent man instead of a drug infested skank, it makes me get all goose-bumpy to know I helped it happen.
My original goal was to change society, which I learned is not possible, because men can’t organize to fight with women, which is what you will have to do. It was very frustrating to spend those thousands of hours with no political gain. But i must say, I’d do it all over again if I could get male custody for even the small number I knew for sure went to the father. I changed those kids lives and they are mostly adults now, untarnished by skank parenting.
Last tip. There were not many groups anywhere in the country at that time which counseled such a large number of men. First, I did give competent advice and training, which others can also do. Second, it was free, which attracts men who feel they are human wallets. Third, I did it mostly anonymously, it’s hard for men to tell their deepest feelings when they are looking at a human being. But, they can do it anonymously over the phone.
If we don’t learn from history, then we are doomed to repeat it.
When you view “it” as a battle, then you are setting yourself up to lose. Surely, life goes on, there are ups and there are downs. I believe that gains are being made, alongside losses too.
Life never was perfect, so don’t judge anything expecting perfection.
However, when a professional job was promised or charged for, then make sure it is delivered.
Many times, we are our own worst enemy, particularly when we don’t have enough current accurate information. These are solvable problems.
Don’t give up!
MurrayBacon the axe murderer.
We will not lose this battle for two much longer as I have a plan to blow up the feminist steam roller.
Beware Kiro, Clark and Boshier , see you all in Court !!
Don’t let the insidious feminazi whores that run this country take the fight out of you . Destroyed the hateful gender bias bitches for once and all !!
How bizarre, as the song goes. Thanks for the post Rob, it is excellent reading as far as I could read. In my opinion it was like the writer was observing and criticising the straw house from within the house of sticks. Hopefully, and I ask you would – pass on my comments to x.
This isn’t about men and fathers rights. It is about meeting a responsibility as protectors of their children. Everything else is secondary. Children require security and are entitled to it. They will only get that security when individuals recognise that they WILL travel together and relegate weak housing (not creating complexes) building better houses with strong foundations; of which marriage is tradition.
BTW: Hemp makes stronger a concrete compound than stone.
It is about protecting the children. That is how we will work together – no other way – no other plan.
The author has a link to this posting, so anything you post he will read.
He tells me that he wasn’t formerly anonymous and posted 90+ opinion pieces in local newspapers of his native California. He fears that if he is now identified, there is a chance he will be ordered to pay child support to some woman he has never met – even though he had a vasectomy in 1976 and no longer lives in California.
The laws in California are such now that this is easy to do – child support orders can be made without legally notifying the man, then the courts will refuse to reverse the order because the man didn’t challenge it in time.
At any time, any man could have a court order made against him and upheld without him having any idea that it was happening.
So much of what this guy writes resonates with my experiences with the NZ men’s movement since the early 1990s.
Especially the bit about re-inventing the wheel! Hardly a week goes by without me hearing about a new initiative getting started, and I know 95% of them won’t last more than a few months. Meanwhile, existing groups such as menscentre.org.nz with considerable “institutional knowledge”, struggle to stay in existance.
I think we are achieving things though, and I agree with Murray that we can solve these problems eventually.
So don’t stop at writing stuff on the Internet guys – join or form a local group and offer support to our brothers who are hurting.
Same here in NZ.
Some of this looks like good advice but some doesn’t apply in NZ.
The re-invention of the wheel is a common thread I have heard from veterans.
One thing that is not mentioned here is that lack of unity around specific objectives.
Take the goal of a Ministry of Men’s affairs. For me this is at best, a non-issue at a time when there are pressing issues. For others it is their primary goal at the moment.
The advice to avoid women being involved is a novel thought to me. It seems counter-intuitive to me but he justifies his view quite strongly.
Then again, we are not told what purpose the groups he is refering to were setup for.
This rather struck me as well. His linkage of the presence of women to suicide should be verifiable. Those who counsel men at risk should be able to confirm this. The inference I drew was that men under pressure benefited from having access to male-only zones.
There is arguments for and against women getting involved in men’s groups although I have heard that men’s groups are welcoming women for the paper work. And it is helping with funding. I would also think it helps to keep the strong feminists away. It is hard for feminists to argue feminists. lol Then again women don’t really want to do this and some will be disappointed if they have to get involved. Plus male issues are sensitive and should be treated as such. That is the bitch with the Family Commission at the moment. They have feminists doing research on males. Not fair at all. But where are the males? Not up there. (yet) So females are going to have to help until such time males don’t need them.
I hear what you are saying. And I know that you are right. We have made a goal specifically to keep ourselves on track. Otherwise we will be putting a lot of effort to promote politicians through meetings like the Waitakere one and similar events and we will give all our energy away to bits and pieces that will amount to nothing. We cannot take anyone away from what they are doing but are gaining new support through our flyers and such to create more support. It is a win-win situation when you consider it is about spreading the word for support and using that support for the benefit of male rights. Not all of us are here for men but for young teens too and our sons.
Hope you get to read this. I am sorry for missing you on the weekend while out West but I had a son to go to camp, an event for single parents to organise and the Lesbian Ball to attend and the flu to deal with. But on another note, we are not ready for strategies. We have a lot of foundation work to do such as moving into a council facility and gaining funding for survival. The way it works is like this, “If you want to be in the billionaires club, you need to be a billionaire” Lucky for us we don’t have it that tough but we have to have credibility. The committee is only being formed yet I don’t want to take anyone here away from the good work they already do. We are looking for a new group but will use everything that is available through the MRM/MRA/FRA groups that already exist.
Not a problem Julie,
I’m planning my cycle tour starting on September 11th (more on this later) and hope to be in Auckland early October. I’m involved in quite a bit for the moment myself so quitely breath relief that a commitment to a Waitakere debate would likely bust a boiler. However, the necessity to continue communication from all groups with their potential support base is critical if such groups wish to achieve: To just dump tools in strike for some half rendered point by conjecture is the fracture of many multiples. So certainly, I figure for your initiaive, if the menzgroups can stay connected to what your doing and connect in positive response to your energy, then the initiaives that everyone could have have a predictable and accountable groundswell.
Rob, I received two letters back from Gordon Copeland in support of my recent challenges directly on Steve Maharey. The second was comprehensive. What do you think of the idea of an amnesty from child support for those fathers who have had no relationship, or paid child support for their sons and daughters, if they wished to reestablish that contact?