MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Anyone willing to help?

Filed under: General — Eric @ 9:23 pm Mon 8th September 2008

Having spent the last six years battling the Family Court I have come to the conclusion that what we need is a well resourced organisation to fight for fathers. I have begun work on a website called and I want to set up an incorporated society as the organisation. I need a minimum of 15 members to do this. The advantage of an incorporated society is that it is a separate legal entity. This protects the members from any individual liability. It also makes it easier to attract donations. I have made a start on the organisaton’s mission statement and I am interested in feedback. Is there anybody interested in being a possible member? There won’t be any cost although donations will be gladly accepted.



  1. About bloody time downunder Batman had a kiwi F4J home.
    Count me in.

    Comment by dad4justice — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 9:36 pm

  2. I have a few comments. First the concept of incorporation is excellent. I question though why you look at an incorporated society. A Charitable trust will far better ajust to your requirements. You need say 5 – 9 trustees (You set these figure, these numbers I have found workable)Registering with the charities commission is the pain. NZ Google “Charitable Trusts” There is an excellent flow chart of how to go about it. Find your trustees. I have helped found several trusts. Through this if you are careful, you can get the ability for donations to be exempt from tax.

    Contact me Off List. Several posters here are aware of my email address. As I am well away from Auckland I am probably of little use.

    Run the names of your supporters past me. I have been around for a while. Unfortunately the men’s movement has attracted some real fruit cakes, mor intent on assuming control and creating mayhem than doing anything to further your goals.

    Comment by Alastair — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 11:02 pm

  3. I am a ex women’s refuge worker,, who now devotes a lot of time helping men get access to their children, if I can do anything I will,,,I am there for the children to see that they get access to both parents

    Comment by Karen — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 11:09 pm

  4. Have we not already got lots of structures in place? For example, Father and Child Trust, Union of Fathers, Kidz need Dadz, Parents for Children, Fatherhood Foundation, Men’s Centre, Shore Fathers, Fathers of NZ, Fathers Coalition.
    Do we really need to disipate our energies even further?
    Have a look at websites for the above that already exist. Maybe your energies are better spent working within what already exists rather than hive off with another 15 in a completely different direction.

    Comment by more accurately — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 11:20 pm

  5. Dear Eric,

    15 members is easy, I, Peter and yourself, are 20% of the quota.
    The numerical membership is easy, having activity from the membership is the stumbling block of all activist organizations.
    Starting new, possibly further detracts fom what is currently in place (albeit perhaps stagnating) but perhaps should be invigorated by renewal from interested parties like yourself.
    Consolidation is the key to success,
    John has between 300 to 1200 visitors accessing this website dependant upon personal circumstances, political climate etc….

    North Shore Mens Centre which has a regular membership and also a transient membership of thousands is/was an incorporated body.
    I feel that the wheel does not need to be re-invented, rather yourself and other like minded need to rejuvenate us weary battlers that have made some progress and further capitalize.

    You have spent the last six years battling the Family Court.
    You have been ill advised or forced, into continued litigation, really unwarranted and the outcome is the call “Anyone Willing to Help”
    The simple answer is Yes, I can provide 12 more subscriptive persons to form your society, however, What, How, Can and will you achieve from the society?You can answer offline if you wish.

    My Kindest Regards

    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge For Men and Families
    (09) 271 3020

    Comment by Paul Catton — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 11:31 pm

  6. Of the listed organisations there is only one I can positively say is incorporated. Another trust though defunct is PANIC One other is definitely not and refuses to consider the advantages of incorporating. Look carefully at constitutions to see how their goals fit yours. Could I commend the previous poster as a person of integrity and help.
    All incorporated bodies MUST be registered with the charities commission.

    My experience is that the structure of a charitable trust is much easier to administer. Read the charitable trusts act.

    Comment by Alastair — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 11:41 pm

  7. Father and Child Trust and Kidz Need Dadz are registered with Charities Commission. Union of Fathers is an incorporated society.
    Fathers groups cover a wide multitude of flavours. Certainly the Fathers coalition is happy being unstructured, and leaderless. In my opinion it also makes them ineffective.
    Those groups who are incorporated or registered as charities will have their rules and annual reports listed on formal sites eg or

    Comment by more accurately — Mon 8th September 2008 @ 11:47 pm

  8. Dear Eric,
    I applaud your spirit.

    North Shore Men’s Centre has lost its incorporation, essentially due to insufficient support and to a lesser extent, due to infighting.

    Although there was some will to regain it, as the committee could not get more than 2 regular members, I considered that there was insufficient regular support to be able to sustain it as an incorporated body.

    I really hope that you can do better, than I am presently able to achieve.
    It seems to show that the problems we have faced, affect such a small and powerless segment of society, that society as a whole sees very little need for change?

    Alternatively, maybe I’m such an argumentative b*st*rd, that no-one wants to help Men’s Centre, while I am part of it?
    Cheers, MurrayBacon (soon to be Treasurer of Men’s Centre.)

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 12:13 am

  9. Aha the advantage of a charitable trust. There are no “Members” provided the trustees maintain a quorum and meetings, it stays. Internet chat type meetings are OK as long as they are provided for in the deed of trust.

    Comment by Alastair — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 12:34 am

  10. Dear Murray,
    As a historical, and a significant benefactor, also a member with current but inactive participation, it astounds me that this depth of fracture has occurred.
    Whilst in attendance of a Grilling of the Pollies I expect to be given a full and clear synopsis as to present dysfunction.

    Kindest regards
    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09) 271 3020

    Comment by Paul Catton — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 12:46 am

  11. Fathers4Justice has brought to the public attention, the plight of Dads in England, the main media just doesn’t want to know about us and are inevitably influenced by feminists. They have achieved in a few years what all the myriad small fathers’ groups have not.

    All these tiny groups contemplating their navels (including Kiwi ones too), headed by bossy man who you can imagine used to actually beat his wife, and justifies all this crap innocent Dads now have to face. Real protest with humour, non threatening with male daring, is one of the keys to getting Dads equality. That is what Fathers4Justice will do. But all this anti-male sentiment will be stopped in USA and UK, NZ just follows the other countries, in order to “Keep up with the Jones’ ”

    All the small Fathers groups reminds me of Life of Brian, Peoples’ Front of Judea and the Judean Peoples’ Front, headed by a gobby, control freak types never achieving anything

    Comment by martin swash — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 1:07 am

  12. Eric,

    1- Open your mission statement


    * To change the laws that discriminate against men.
    * To bring more accountability into the system.
    * To expose the misandrogists (men-haters) working for the Family Court.
    * To remove the secrecy in Family Court proceedings.

    We play into the Govt’s hands if we restict our focus to the FC

    The FC is only a portion of the Govt agencies which induce the destruction of FAMILY

    NZLaw and NZSocial Policy are designed to tear our Families apart and do

    2 – Communicate with F4J HQ-UK – If for no other reason than to learn from their mistakes

    Sadly F4J-UK is in a bit of a mess at the moment with Matt leaving yet again so that will not be easy until things settle down – Matt was always pretty careful of who could use F4J as part of their tittle and made it clear that it was not to be used without being a satilite of F4J-UK – You can be fairly sure that will be the case with whoever takes the reigns

    3 – Do we need more Orgs?

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 4:32 am

  13. Fathers4Justice will raise awareness by using Lycra ! It will be infiltrated by the NZ government some day soon. All the feminists will be worried now
    All the small Fathers Orgs WILL NEVER CHANGE ANYTHING !

    Comment by martin swash — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 5:33 am

  14. Martin

    You are onto it

    The so called NZMens -/- NZFathers movement has been infiltrated by the destructive influences of labour and probably others. I have a long list of suspects after building the FFDB? for some 13 years

    Anybody who may be seeing deep enough into our troubles and spreads information that may rescue our Families is nominated as a spammer and thus their input and influence is severely reduced

    Some even sit here on MENZ giving SAGE advice to the unwary and thus build the Empire of Injustice – Some simply feed information-/-names to MSD which is in charge of the courts and all other Govt agencies

    However their influence is NOT our biggest danger

    Most Men are rugged individuals who create their own empires of small mindedness and thus are their own worst enemy

    There is not enough pain yet to break the rugged individualism into a desire to work together

    Its coming Praise God

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 8:05 am

  15. As i have said on several occasions, these despiccable family laws will be first changed in US and UK, this is still a few years away yet, but they will inevitably change, they will be changed by right wing conservative governments.

    NZ will inevitably follow, all the legal snakes will be pissed off with the lower incomes that all this family destruction have brought them over the years.

    I just think of when these laws were first formulated, which evil buggers thought them up, “Yes we will take the kids away from Dad, unless he pays up and the lawyers must get their fair share from Dad too”. YOU ARE VERY EVIL, SHAME ON YOU ALL !

    What NZ needs are documentaries showing the terrible injustice that Dads must face in these secret courts, WHERE ARE THEY ??????????? We need a change of government that’s all.

    Comment by M Swash — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 11:53 am

  16. Martin,

    You must come over to Beach Haven sometime soon – We seem to agree on much – This latest post of yours is suggesting change will come from OUTSIDE NZ is my thought exactly

    And yes the far right will do as you say although it could swing the other way as some laeyers (Usually Right) see it as a gravy train

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 12:10 pm

  17. Thanks for all the feedback so far. I am working my way through them and responding personally as I find the time. I would like to see Fathers4Justice to become sufficiently well funded that it can actually employ full-time staff to work on its mission. I think this is one of the fundamental problems addressing men’s groups, we just don’t have the time because we are too busy working and having to pay child support for children we rarely see. I got to go back to my day job now but I will continue to develop the website and organisation and link up with like minded organisations and individuals.


    Comment by Eric — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 12:16 pm

  18. Perhaps before looking into the possible legal structures, we need to look at why so many people in this area, put more time into attacking and deriding each other, than into constructive action?

    It is important that forward moving action continues, while the talk talk talk goes on, or nobody will go anywhere, till we drop into our graves.

    At present, we have “paralysis by analysis”.

    I suggest that oversized ego is my/our biggest single problem. Our detractors have also tried to help us by pointing this out, but it seems noone was willing to listen to them.

    Teamwork requires time, effort, investment, listening and respect. Should we be working on developing these skills and values?

    These attributes would also help in all of our other relationships too!

    Cheers, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 1:21 pm

  19. Any “Stunts” like in England and USA will be met with excessive force by NZ police like it was recently in Canada, with cops firing stun grenades and sending SWAT teams.

    Comment by M Swash — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 1:30 pm

  20. Legal structures?

    Wake up Men of NZ

    NZLaw and NZSocial Policy requires all legal structures to report to the Govt of the day

    The Govt of the day can use any of many Laws to tear apart any legal structure it does no agee with or sees as threatening

    Get on with the job without legal structure

    Recognise that we Family Orientated Folk go backwards by the hour and learn to work together as a-fathers-coalition (Go Google)

    No ICONS, NO spokesmen

    Just unity and support

    Yes we need agressive debate

    We have a forum for it

    We don’t needed to expose it to the media and any body else watching any open forum

    As we begin to recognise our true position more will join the debate and work our way ahead

    Put your comments on

    And join the Egroup for that debate ASAP

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 7:50 pm

  21. I see a proposal for a new group / organisation / initiative about once a month, and only very few come to anything. I personally prefer to put my own energy into established groups, most of which struggle to get enough support to survive.

    I would say the chances of your organisation getting approval to operate as a charity are probably less than Winston becoming our next Prime Minister!

    On the other hand, the superheros at F4J in the UK have been some of the most effective publicists for the cause, so good luck!

    Comment by JohnP — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 8:54 pm


    Comment by Colin B — Tue 9th September 2008 @ 9:57 pm

  23. I see there are a lot of little, individual groups around with few members and they seem to be strugling. I think it would be a good idea to have 1 organisation to tie them all together, an umbrella organisation if you like. One ring to rule them all you could say.

    Not only will this allow those small groups to gain momentum but would also spur on others to get started in more areas. Auckland seems to be covered but what about the rest of the country?

    There is a need for structure. Far North, Auckland, North Harbour, Manukau, Hamilton, BOP, New Plymouth, Wellington, Hutt City, Christchurch, Dunedin…you can fill in the blanks. Each group may have a different name but if they are all moving in the same direction with the same goal then it becomes an unstoppable force.

    Comment by Tigerseye — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 10:35 am

  24. Don’t forget Wanganui, Napier, and Palmerston North. There have been demonstrations in the latter two areas.

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 10:48 am

  25. Hi Tigerseye and others.
    Union of Fathers was set up to be an Umbrella group and attempted to pull existing individuals and groups together. That was back in 2000-2002.
    Union of Fathers is still the only group attempting National representation.
    We have groups (of varying strenght and siz) in Tauranga, Hamilton, Napier/Hastings, Wellington and Kapiti. There are contacts and some work happening in Hutt Valley, Timaru, Dunedin, Auckland, King Country, Manawatu, Horowhenua.
    Back in 2000-2002 there was a view that “one ring might rule them all” however I think few who have been around would ever hold such ambitions these days.
    [email protected]

    Comment by allan Harvey — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 11:48 am

  26. a-fathers-coalition will do the job

    Honour all individuals and Orgs

    Go –

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 12:04 pm

  27. UoF does not honouir all
    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 12:05 pm

  28. These last two posts represent exactly what I have been saying. The art of good leadership is to be able to lead people to their doom.

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 1:11 pm

  29. The so called Art of good leadership has lead us to where we are now

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 1:29 pm

  30. Honestly people, this is starting to sound like “mine is bigger than yours.” When I needed support I found this site and it has helped me so much. That’s what I needed and that’s what I got but now I’m looking at what seems like a political debate.

    Lets not loose site of what we are trying to achieve. Stop bickering and start moving in the same direction – no one group is better than the other. Support is support so lets put the knives down and work some stuff out.

    If you want to fix your car you go to a mechanic, if there is a dent you go to the body shop, you need gas? Go to the gas station. You know you don’t go to Pit Stop to get your rego and, lets face it, the local AA office or post office is not going to fit your car with mags. The one thing they all should have in common (apart from the post office) is the MTA. That’s what we need… or in this case it could be the TMA or Tortured Mens Association.

    It’s not always about child support or custody battles and the likes, sometimes it’s about finding other men who are going through the same things and supporting each other. The TMA should be nothing to do with the support aspect but would be the political back bone… the activists etc. We want change, of course, but we want help first and if we all become to political about it we can’t help anybody.

    Coalition, movement, union and a bunch of other words are too politically orientated and – I’m sorry to say – give the wrong impression. The 2 parties in NZ are National and Labour… names with very little or no political connotation outside of government.

    I’m very sorry if I have offended anybody as that is not my intention – I’m just telling it as I see it. Think outside the box! You cannot check the engine if you are still driving the car!

    Respect to all, I mean it – I know we can all work together to help others as you guys have helped me while at the same time make some well overdue changes to the legislation that is ripping us apart.

    Comment by Tigerseye — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 3:46 pm

  31. You are dead right T/E. There are unfortunately in the mens movement one or two who seek to tear down and alienate others. These same people appear to be attempting a campaign of divide and conquor on other successful groups. It is fair to say you will not find them in these other groups, as their tendencies are known. To extend your car anology, it is a bit like taking your car to a person who operates out of the back of a house and who wants cash, and doesn’t issue accounts or receipts. continue searching. These groups exist. Some very sage advice has come from one of them in this discussion. Search Yahoo groups, several exist here.

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 4:28 pm

  32. There is a huge difference between offering Sage advice and Standing Beside those who ask for it.

    There is even more difference between a Pyramid Organisation (UoF) etc and one that listens loudly to all individuals, promotes no body above another and thus developes a feel for the real on the ground picture

    There is a huge difference between offering support from within or beyond troubles than to guiding by assumption

    The debate on the way forward and out of the current mess of NZLaw and NZSocial Policy is not for the mutterers, not for the egotripers, not for the short termers, not for the weak at heart, and most certainly not for the limited by their own opinion

    Come to the a-fathers-coalition BLOG and state your way forward

    There is no desire to take over in a coalition but to support and promote

    Onward – jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Wed 10th September 2008 @ 5:49 pm

  33. I Note that one group appears so short of members it promotes its self ans sites. Though being a member of another 3 lists dealing with these issues I have deliberately respected John’s site and not used it to tout for members or support.

    Comment by Alastair — Thu 11th September 2008 @ 1:02 am


    ARTIST: Trad and Anon
    TITLE: Plastic Jesus

    Well, I don’t care if it rains or freezes,
    Long as I have my plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    Through all trials and tribulations,
    We will travel every nation,
    With my plastic Jesus I’ll go far.

    Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    Through all trials and tribulations,
    We will travel every nation,
    With my plastic Jesus I’ll go far.

    I don’t care if it rains or freezes
    As long as I’ve got my Plastic Jesus
    Glued to the dashboard of my car,
    You can buy Him phosphorescent
    Glows in the dark, He’s Pink and Pleasant,
    Take Him with you when you’re travelling far


    I don’t care if it’s dark or scary
    Long as I have magnetic Mary
    Ridin’ on the dashboard of my car
    I feel I’m protected amply
    I’ve got the whole damn Holy Family
    Riding on the dashboard of my car


    You can buy a Sweet Madonna
    Dressed in rhinestones sitting on a
    Pedestal of abalone shell
    Goin’ ninety, I’m not wary
    ‘Cause I’ve got my Virgin Mary
    Guaranteeing I won’t go to Hell


    I don’t care if it bumps or jostles
    Long as I got the Twelve Apostles
    Bolted to the dashboard of my car
    Don’t I have a pious mess
    Such a crowd of holiness
    Strung across the dashboard of my car


    No, I don’t care if it rains or freezes
    Long as I have my plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    But I think he’ll have to go
    His magnet ruins my radio
    And if we have a wreck he’ll leave a scar


    Riding through the thoroughfare
    With his nose up in the air
    A wreck may be ahead, but he don’t mind
    Trouble coming, he don’t see
    He just keeps his eyes on me
    And any other thing that lies behind

    Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    Though the sun shines on his back
    Makes him peel, chip, and crack
    A little patching keeps him up to par

    When pedestrians try to cross
    I let them know who’s boss
    I never blow my horn or give them warning
    I ride all over town
    Trying to run them down
    And it’s seldom that they live to see the morning

    Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    His halo fits just right
    And I use it as a sight
    And they’ll scatter or they’ll splatter near and far

    When I’m in a traffic jam
    He don’t care if I say Damn
    I can let all sorts of curses roll
    Plastic Jesus doesn’t hear
    For he has a plastic ear
    The man who invented plastic saved my soul

    Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    Once his robe was snowy white
    Now it isn’t quite so bright
    Stained by the smoke of my cigar

    God made Christ a Holy Jew
    God made Him a Christian too
    Paradoxes populate my car
    Joseph beams with a feigned elan
    From the shaggy dash of my furlined van
    Famous cuckold in the master plan

    Naughty Mary, smug and smiling
    Jesus dainty and beguiling
    Knee-deep in the piling of my van
    His message clear by night or day
    My phosphorescent plastic Gay
    Simpering from the dashboard of my van

    When I’m goin’ fornicatin
    I got my ceramic Satan
    Sinnin’ on the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home
    The women know I’m on the level
    Thanks to the wild-eyed stoneware devil
    Ridin’ on the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home
    Sneerin’ from the dashboard of my Winnebago Motor Home
    Leering from the dashboard of my van

    If I weave around at night
    And the police think I’m tight
    They’ll never find my bottle, though they ask
    Plastic Jesus shelters me
    For His head comes off, you see
    He’s hollow, and I use Him for a flask

    Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus
    Riding on the dashboard of my car
    Ride with me and have a dram
    Of the blood of the Lamb
    Plastic Jesus is a holy bar

    Comment by Colin B — Thu 11th September 2008 @ 9:05 am

  35. Alistair,

    This is a public forum – If you have a problem with someone in the Mens-/-Fathers Movement take it to a-fathers-coalition and thrash it there

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Thu 11th September 2008 @ 12:23 pm

  36. Who has a problem? When did I say I had a problem, with fathers coalition?

    Comment by Alastair — Thu 11th September 2008 @ 4:28 pm

  37. Hi Eric,
    There are no contact details on your website. I would be interested in this initiative. How do we contact you?

    Comment by Justice — Thu 11th September 2008 @ 5:15 pm

  38. We have had a U O F in Hawkes Bay for 3.5 years now. In that time the group has helped fifty or more Dads progress their parenting usually without them having to waste any more of their money any more on lawyers.
    If each one of those fifty guys had helped / taught / supported two others we’d be a major group and influence in family law in the region.
    But we’re not, and the single reason is that 45 of those 50 guys have ‘taken’ but not ‘given’. Only 5 out of 50 have said yes I’ve been helped now how can I help the next guy.

    Comment by Ken Maclaren — Fri 12th September 2008 @ 8:25 am

  39. But we’re not, and the single reason is that 45 of those 50 guys have ‘taken’ but not ‘given’. Only 5 out of 50 have said yes I’ve been helped now how can I help the next guy.

    I suspect this is the experience of every groupo that has offered support.


    Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Fri 12th September 2008 @ 10:44 am

  40. U. O. F. Hawkes Bay is the Best – My experience of many of you has been terrific and encouraging

    ikeep up that good work regardless of the lack of thanks

    Do it for the Kids

    Onward – Jim

    Comment by Jim Bailey — Fri 12th September 2008 @ 11:48 am

  41. There has been concern that having multiple groups is a sign of disunity and a dissipation of energies. While I can understand this concern I believe it can be viewed another way. It is only disunity if groups are contradicting each other or working at cross-purposes. If groups are working in parallel or focusing their efforts in a particular area then it can be advantageous. It is harder for the enemy to have fight on many fronts. Think WW2, Germany was fighting against many forces. The Russians from the East, the Americans, the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the French Resistance. This proved fatal to the Germans as they could not focus their forces on just the one enemy.


    Comment by Eric — Fri 12th September 2008 @ 11:53 am

  42. YES ERIC..
    even with a unified group, how does one negotiate with terroists ???
    i.e. (family court)

    Comment by Colin of Nazareth — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 9:54 pm

  43. YES ERIC..
    even with a unified group, how does one negotiate with terroists ???
    i.e. (family court)

    Comment by Colin of Nazareth — Thu 18th September 2008 @ 9:54 pm

  44. What i would like to say that a Fathers4Justice in NZ has a GREAT GREAT opportunity while Helen Clark is in Office, she is a bullying, controlling woman and it would look great and get LOTS of media attention, if F4J NZ could be “present” at one of her public appearances. The contrast between her and fathers deprived of their kids would be VERY STRONG, please NZ Dads, someone try something like that ! It would be even better if she criticised the F4J in some way ! The local organisers should badger the Dads that they have helped over the years to join in

    Many of her major appearances in public should be followed by Dads in some way, by Dads throughout NZ. There should be demonstrations dressed up as Batman etc. It would achieve a MILLION times more than small demonstrations, as well as being good fun for Dads in NZ

    I am sure that most men will never forget the anti-male bias of the courts

    Comment by Perseus — Fri 17th October 2008 @ 11:14 pm

  45. Revolting Batmen that sounds good

    Comment by NewBieMan — Sat 18th October 2008 @ 7:54 am

  46. Hi,
    Hi have been tracking this particular thread, I have 4 children supposedly stolen by Japanese nationals. I am wondering, there has been recent talk in Japan that the rules are changing. How can this society change the way I feel about this battle. Personally the more I fight , the more trouble I encounter, it will take at least 5 years at the current rate, to even get time with my children. The stakes are high. What can we achieve and how many men are being blocked by asian families. I am keenly interested, mainly because I will not negotiate with so called family terrorists. What’s your angle and what makes you different?
    I would love to see my kids

    Comment by Tokyo — Sun 19th October 2008 @ 3:37 am

  47. know your enemy…

    Know Your Enemy: Japan is an American propaganda film produced on behalf of the U.S. War Department in 1945 as a training film for American soldiers preparing to fight in the Pacific during World War II.

    Film Summary

    Japanese citizens are portrayed as fanatical and brainwashed. Children are raised from a very young age to be soldiers, which was thought to be the “highest human achievement” in Japanese society. Soldiers preferred death over surrender, because they believed soldiers that died in battle became warrior gods.

    The film also portrays the Japanese as a formidable foe, who will do anything to achieve world domination. The soldiers are also described as remarkably similar in appearance, “as alike as photographic prints off the same negative.”

    The film goes into detail about the Japanese national religion, Shint?. According to their religion, the Japanese believed that the emperor was a direct descendant of the gods, as was Jimmu, Japan’s first emperor.

    Jimmu was credited with the idea of “hakko ichiu,” or that the Japanese should control “the eight corners of the world under one roof,” which, according to the film, was Japan’s national ambition.

    Japanese history is then summarized up to the 17th century stating that the emperor was just a figurehead all this time and that there was a series of civil wars from the late first millennium until the Meiji Restoration. Emphasis is put on the earlier development of Christianity in this period, contrasting it to the supposedly always brutal nature of Japanese society. Christianity is given as the reason for Japan’s isolation between the 17th and mid-19th centuries.

    According to the film, Baron Tanaka made a “secret blueprint” for the emperor in 1927, detailing how Japan should take over the world. First it would attack Manchuria, then China and Siberia, followed by Malaysia and the East Indies. Last was the United States, and the baron believed that once the U.S. fell, the rest of the world would fall also.

    Comment by Colin of Nazareth — Mon 20th October 2008 @ 5:38 pm

  48. Everyone should study Sun Tzu- especially anyone with a battle on their hands.

    Comment by John Brett — Mon 20th October 2008 @ 6:36 pm

  49. I studied Japanese history at University, and have lived in Japan for 10 years been back and forth for 20 years. Know plenty about the culture. But my question was how could this new society be beneficial to me and are there any other guys being blocked by Asian families.
    But, thanks for the plot summary.

    Comment by Tokyo — Wed 22nd October 2008 @ 1:52 pm

  50. Mission Statement for Legal Lobbying Group

    There has been discussion in this thread about lobbying, for the purposes of affecting the details of new legislation.

    Whilst that is important, it takes a long time to have effect and also the problems that most parents run into in the familycaught lie in the areas where the familycaught operates outside of the legislation, so that new legislation would have limited effect anyway.

    For that reason, I suggested that a group giving legal support and in particular support for subsequent appeals was probably a more important short term priority, than making submissions towards new legislation.

    A clear and good example of Legal Strategy is given in the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission report:

    Legal Strategy UK Human Rights Commission

    This extract, could be the basis for a Mission Statement

    Criteria for legal enforcement

    The Commission will consider using its enforcement powers when the proposed enforcement action would come within at least one of the following:

    · Would have a positive public impact — improve understanding and change perceptions and attitudes.
    · Would force the issue onto the agenda of the body/person with power to implement change.
    · Would make a difference — in terms of the content or application of the law or the policies and practices of an organisation, institution or sector.
    · Would eliminate or significantly reduce systemic and/or entrenched disadvantage.
    · Would test the extent of compliance with public sector equality duties.
    · Would support other areas of the Commission’s work.
    · Having regard to relevant circumstances and the Commission’s priorities, the selected form of enforcement is the most appropriate of the Commission’s legal tools to achieve one of the above.

    Strategic litigation and casework

    Through strategic litigation the Commission is able to achieve improvements to legal protection against discrimination. Successful litigation can clarify the law or achieve changes to law or policy, which can then be used as levers for wider social or legal change. Non-monetary terms of settlement can also secure major changes that will have wider impact. The Commission’s policy initiatives, strategic priorities, campaigns and its monitoring duties can also be supported or assisted by test and illustrative cases.

    As stated in Annex B, the Commission has powers to assist an individual who alleges that s/he is a victim of unlawful discrimination or harassment and who is or may become a party to legal proceedings under one or more of the equality enactments. Legal assistance may take the form of legal advice, representation, facilities for the settlement of a dispute or any other form of assistance. It could include an application for judicial review by the Commission where the issue is the unlawful treatment of a particular individual or group.

    The Commission will work with its external partners, including trade unions, voluntary sector organisations, CABx and RECs, for example to highlight cases that come within the following criteria or to raise awareness of legal issues.
    Recognising that its resources, compared with the volume of discrimination proceedings, are such that it can fully support only a small proportion of the cases for which its assistance is sought, the Commission has developed criteria to identify potential strategic litigation cases.

    Strategic litigation criteria

    The Commission will consider supporting a case if, applying the above Public Benefit Tool, the case can be shown to meet one or more of the following criteria and also comes within at least one of the priorities for the Commission’s legal work (see pages 12—24):

    · Clarifies an important point of law: definitions of key concepts, scope of the law and significant gaps, remedies and sanctions (in Scotland and in England and Wales).
    · Is a cost-effective method of achieving a desired outcome, taking into account the likelihood of success.
    · Will have a significant impact on a particular sector.
    · Challenges a policy or practice that is known to cause significant disadvantage based on the number of people affected or the scale of the disadvantage or injury for the people affected.
    · Challenges multiple/intersectional discrimination.
    · Will extend or strengthen protections and rights under one or more of the equality enactments and, where it also applies, human rights law.
    · Tests compliance with one or more of the public sector equality duties and, where it is also relevant, the duty on public authorities under s.6 HRA.
    Absence of other sources of legal support, taking into account the particular circumstances of the individual and the above criteria.

    Best regards, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 5th November 2008 @ 3:58 pm

  51. I have suggested that lobbying through caught appeals is the avenue which most needs our attention. Appeals that succeed then also greatly influence future legislative proposals too.

    A good exammple of battling through caught appeals is given by Ray Lautenschlager, in Ohio, USA:

    When we announced the filing of Evans vs. State of Ohio we referred to it as the completion of the circle. We also hinted that in time more information would come as to further challenges to the custody laws of the State of Ohio. That time is now!

    As many of you know, I worked very hard with Michael Galluzzo and the team that we created to try to bring about true due process to the family court system. While the Galluzzo case did not bring about the result that we all hoped for needed and wanted, I still believe strongly in that case and what it could have done for all fit parents and their children.

    How strongly do I believe in this argument of law and the constitutional right to raise one’s own children on an equal basis? How about, “Strongly enough to be willing to put myself through the whole fight again!” The Galluzzo case took nearly 5 years from start to DENIAL by the U.S. Supreme Court.

    On September 12th, 2008, I filed a Constitutional Challenge in the Northern District of Ohio Federal Court (case number 5:08CV2188) in Akron to Ohio Revised Code 3109.04 and Civil Rule 75N. This is the same cause of action the Galluzzo Case brought before the courts except that this case contains my particulars, some new case law and new information that we have obtained.

    While the Galluzzo case did not achieve the decision that we sought, that is, to end the bias in domestic relations courts within the State of Ohio and to allow all fit parents full Due Process under the law, I are hopeful that we will prevail this time.

    Much has been learned since the Galluzzo case was dismissed by the Courts, both thru the lessons of the case and from conversations that have taken place with some of the key players in that case. Information has come to me that Magistrate Judge Merz felt that Mike was using the Federal Court System to overturn his State Court decision. While this may have been the end result it was NOT the basis for the case. The case was brought to assure that every parent was given fair and equal treatment under the law from the inception of any case that impinge on their fundamental right to the care, custody and control of their children.

    This is a strong position to take by the court even though the documents and testimony contradicted this, whether it was wrong or right does not matter now. I can not have this argument used against me in my case. My son turned eighteen in June and the decision that was rendered by the State Court is moot as I challenge the constitutional issues that we have all faced in these matters. I can honestly state to the court that the only thing I am seeking is to have the law ruled unconstitutional to protect the future of my son as a parent. To an end this will protect the future of every fit parent that may or may not face the whirlwind of divorce or separation and the emotional grinder of Ohio’s Domestic Court System.

    I have obtained the original briefs from both the Boyer vs. Boyer case and In RE Perales. Both these cases have been used since the 70’s as the Ohio precedence for setting custody within the Ohio courts. These have made for interesting reading and study, both for their age and historical significance to Ohio parents and what I term inappropriate usage by the courts. All of these will come out in the coming months as I make my way through the court with this case.

    This is a gutsy move and I know that it will be my last chance to make a major impact on parent rights thru the courts. Once my son is out of this system, I would have to fight hard to get the case heard, harder than it might be worth.

    As we move this case forward I will do my best to keep all updated as to the status. I will post all files from this case on my website and on the PACE website for all to see (the learning process so we don’t reinvent the wheel). I have also set up a special email box for information and to answer any questions that you have. Please use [email protected] for all communication on this case. But understand, this will be a busy time and I will try my best to respond as quickly as possible.

    I have set up a fund to help defray the expenses that I will occur, such as postage and printing. I went thru a ream of paper to print the complaint to the court and $17 dollars in postage, to give you an example of how costly a case like this can be, even without an attorney. Expenses for mailing and printing will continue to grow as we move forward.

    If you want to donate, for now, I can accept cash (cover it up well and pray that it makes it); checks, Money Orders, or you may donate through my PayPal account by sending money to [email protected]. I will have fees here but can work around that problem. If you go this way please make it significant. I will find a way to make this all happen one way or another. These funds will be used for this case, Evans v State of Ohio, and Michael Galluzzo’s battles.

    Please mail to:

    Ray R. Lautenschlager

    2595 Terrace Ave.

    Apt. 2

    Akron, Ohio 44312

    May God Bless us in this fight and give us the strength to see this thru to the end. Say your prayers that the Good Lord gives us the guidance to get a court that recognizes the true meaning of equality, respects the due process rights of all fit parents and upholds those fundamental Constitutional rights.

    Ray Lautenschlager

    Akron Director

    [email protected]


    Ray Lautenschlager

    PACE Akron

    “The keeper of the penny”


    “Success is more permanent when you achieve it without

    destroying your principles”. – Walter Cronkite

    We are continually faced with a series of great opportunities

    brilliantly disguised as insoluble problems.
    – John W. Gardner

    Home: 330-784-7527

    A few adventurous souls are doing this and we should be learning from them what it takes and how to do it. Cheers, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 23rd November 2008 @ 10:36 pm

  52. In NZ an appeal of a Family Court case over custody is not a real appeal. That is, it is not a rehearing. It is just a kind of inquiry into the case. Since basically every family caught case is just a matter for a judge to decide what he thinks what is best for the child. The appeal will almost never interfere with that decision regardless of the circumstances. In other words an appeal of a custody case is not an appeal at all.

    Hence trying to change things via an appeal will have no effect.

    However the number of appeals is a different thing altogether.
    If 90% of cases were appealed then the system would be deemed to have failed. It is basically the same as a mass vote of no confidence in the family caught.

    Before you go fund raising to file 1,000 appeals next year, there is a catch.

    You need to apply to the family court for permission to appeal the family caught’s own ruling. Guess what the family caught is going to do if you start applying to appeal most cases.

    There is something in this process that we can use to our advantage.

    It doesn’t cost anything to apply to the family court for permission to appeal. So one option may be to immediately file for permission to appeal in almost every case. We don’t have to actually appeal. This would force the family caught to have to decide if it will allow an appeal in almost every case it rules on.

    This is one (rather weak) way you can send a message to the family court fathers have no confidence in it.

    However as I have said it is public perception we need to address – not the court directly.

    Comment by Dave — Mon 24th November 2008 @ 6:28 pm

  53. I do wonder how things are going with the establishment
    of a F4J kiwi group? Count me in.

    Comment by dad4justice — Tue 24th February 2009 @ 6:37 pm

  54. It would seem not much is happening.
    Why don’t people seek to support existing groups such as Father and Child Trust, Union of fathers or Fathers coalition? TYhis reinventing of the same old wheel takes energies that are unneccesary in my view.

    Comment by allan Harvey — Wed 25th February 2009 @ 8:24 am

  55. That’s how much you know about the Fathers Rights
    Movement Alan. I have been part of a Fathers Coalition
    that had meetings with the Labour MP Families Commissioner.
    That’s my point. No wonder nothing gets done. I am well
    aware of the motives of many in the New Zealand Fathers
    Rights Movement. Can’t upset the funding gravy train.
    Time Batman visited the Beehive again.

    Comment by dad4justice — Wed 25th February 2009 @ 12:04 pm

  56. Fathers ARE making progress contrary to what the previous correspondent states. I was a single dad in the 80’s. My lawyer refused to process my application for custody. (I did it myself) He, my son’s intermediate headmaster, secondary headmaster, teachers, and the school counsellor all advised me to the effect “Men don’t know how to raise children, give him back to his mother” (My employer fully supported me. Thanks Massey University) Today, while I agree the family court is a crock of S …. we still see them awarding parenting rights to fathers. The wheel is turning. This turn is being achieved by moderate groups presenting sound cases, backed up by expert opinion to the powers that be. Unfortunately the anti male culture of the 80’s still lingers, but it is changing.

    Our biggest impediment are our abusive, and violent members taking extreem action (Usually in stupid costumes) and undoing the good public perception we are gaining.

    In the meantime it certainly is not the time to give up lobying, and presenting soundly researched papers to various bodies. Allan deserves a medal for his tireless work.

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 25th February 2009 @ 12:32 pm

  57. Al, our hatred of F4J is obvious.
    See what I mean F4J lads. No wonder we can’t get going here
    Matt. I told you this was the case.You didn’t believe me.
    Its really sad eh. Batman is not a “stupid costume” you

    Comment by dad4justice — Wed 25th February 2009 @ 12:44 pm

  58. “Our biggest impediment are our abusive, and violent
    members taking extreem action”

    A slanderous comment.

    Comment by dad4justice — Wed 25th February 2009 @ 12:46 pm

  59. Thank you who ever you are. Your replies need no further comment. I appreciate your views.
    At least I have a name I am proud of.

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 25th February 2009 @ 8:26 pm

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