MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Good luck

Filed under: General — UF @ 3:10 pm Wed 12th November 2008

I have taken a keen interest in family law and men’s issues. I worked with Judy to draft and get the DNA bill on the order paper, where it now languishes because United fell 0.3% short of getting Judy Turner back into Parliament.

I feel for those who cannot challenge their paternity and consequently are paying child support they shouldnt or are enstranged from their own children.

I feel for those who lose their right to be parents to their kids because the family court has a default position to give it day to day care to the mother. so i drafted a members bill for shared parenting that would ahve been int he ballot next parliament if Judy had returned. Now it will not be there. Criticism of the bill that it was not tough enough is, to be honest, coming from the ignorant who have no understanding of politics and how to achieve things in parliament. Newman’s bill got defeated. You need more than 50% of votes in the House to pass 1st reading and get a bill to the select committee – this is the hardest task. The bill says that ’shared parenting’ should be the default position. It did not define ’shared’ as this would give political parties and excuse to vote the bill down before it got to select committee. So it was left out – especially as even if i had added a definition it would have been changed to whatever the select committee wanted anyway, if it was to be passed further.

I felt for those who are accused of assaulting their partners when the violence is initiated by the women more often than the male. And protection orders and vexatious allegations that play out in custody hearings. Judy spoke on all these issues challenging the orthodoxy – plus on boys education, men’s health and CYF (where she got a complaints process and panel achieved).

As someone who has no personal gripe or history with any of these areas, i can look relatively objectively i believe. I saw systematic injustice occurring and tried to do what little was in my power to change.

I can pretty honestly say that the men’s and father’s movement’s worst enemy are themselves.
The biggest barrier, politically speaking, to getting change and movement on issues is the dis-jointed, at times aggressive, conspiratorial nature which the vocal members seem to adopt.

Work with others – not against them. Stop seeing compromise as a dirty word that only “feminazis”, “wimps” and those with “manginas” would consider.

Bitterness at a system that has let you down is inevitable and expected – but leave it at the door when you visit those who do not understand where you are coming from or share your view.

If you see white, and others see black, don’t demand white or nothing from them. Suggest a grey and work to the lightest shade you can, but take what you can and then next time around, the status quo is closer to where you want to go than it was.

I am no expert and if i am coming across in a condescending manner i apologise. I just want to say what i think for once in the hope it will help you change the areas of importance to you.

I will not be posting again and infact i am personally leaving the country in a few days (not because fo the government but personal reasons). As i said i have no personal experience about being shafted by policies or the family court or child support. My interest was simply because i saw it unfair, but the negative tone, pettiness and readiness to attack anyone and anything means i have no interest in becoming involved in discussions.

If i could give one piece of advice, it would be for those who are moderate to form a lobby group for fathers, taht could also deal with mens rights.

Leave the word ‘feminazi’ out of any correspondence.

Put out regular press releases on issues of the day that affect men and fathers. Keep the tone forceful but respectful so that you soon get recognised by media sources as someone they are not scared to call or refer to in stories. Build a reputation. The reputation of mens advocates at the moment is that of aggressive nutters, ready to yell or snap anytime….

get a mild group that journos can talk to on topics such as the DNA bill. Put out releases referring to the aussie article above, and ask is anyone going further this bill in NZ? challenge National.

Get this group to visit MPs and make sure youa re realistic in what you are hoping to achieve. be single minded in your goals – one or two at a time and leave the wider debate for another time. Be pragmatic.

Once you have a lobby group that is mildy respected, then you can start to champion things and pressure government better. You could work with other like minded groups on certain issues. Shared parenting is something Family First may help you champion.

STOP GETTING PERSONAL. It makes you look petty and you lsoe credibility, even if your criticisms are justified.

Keep the extremists out of the area of communications.

Basically, im jsut saying be smarter and use the system. the womens groups did. And realise that the key to change is public support. Your gripes are valid. You are treated unfairly. Point this out and you will get sympathy. Come across as conspirators and aggressors and you will lose the public (and journos who are the link).

For example, people genuinely dont know that men and women are violent in the home in roughly equal numbers – they just are not aware. Get active writing moderate, concise press releases to all major papres and other groups, as well as newroom and scoop.  Put your views across, in a moderate tone.   Keep those who are well meaning but in the end damaging individuals away from the microphone.

Work with others and don’t be afraid to compromise. Rome wasn’t built in a day.

All the best.


  1. This is the first time I have heard a reasoned post. I have been abused and namecalled by one particular group of men, simply for espousing this sentiment.

    May I repost this on another list of moderates?

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 3:22 pm

  2. Sure, some very good advice there. One must remember though that it was an election campaign, and those supporting the Republicans were hardly going to encourage people to vote for Dunne’s party, especially after the actual things he has brought about showing him to care nothing about fathers and little more about families. What on earth would you expect? All credit to Judy Turner for promising she would push several matters of interest to men or fathers, but surely it’s appropriate to point out inadequacies in those policies and to express some reservation given the party’s track record?

    Instead of bemoaning the criticism that UF received from many sensible posters here, they could take those criticisms into account and formulate policies more likely to bring about real improvement in the way fathers are treated.

    Regardless, Dunne still has every opportunity to push the policies his party went to the electorate with. Let’s see if he does. Let’s see if he even mentions them. Bets anyone?

    Comment by Hans Laven — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 3:42 pm

  3. To clarify,

    I wasn’t bemoaning MY treatment at all. But i see others – moderates and thoughtful people who will be turned off as the environment is one that attacks any difference of opinion.

    I am not referring to United or Dunne – they are irrelevent to the post. I am not saying anyone should support either of them and i am no longer involved with them. I do not care about republicans either – they recieved 298 votes throuout the country.

    I was posting as an individual and my observations from where i sit.

    The bickering i was referring to was amongst yourselves – not involving me. I am not specifically talking about the election campaign either – it just so happens that their has recently been one.

    I was simply talking in general and to do with mens organisation.

    Not to do with Dunne or Turner. Hope this clarifies.


    Comment by UF — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 4:24 pm

  4. UF,

    Thanks for your effotrs.

    It is one view, but there are others.

    Keep well and if you want a coffee email me.



    Comment by Scrap_The_CSA — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 4:58 pm

  5. I agree there is good advice here.But surely United Future didn’t lose voters by the thousands simply because those in the men’s movement did not vote for them.They lost the voters because of their leader and he also needs to reflect on why he has become so unpopular with both men and women.
    I’m hoping that he won’t be given that same portfolio in this government.
    He’s got to think hard about earning peoples trust again and if the issues that Judy raised are important to him,he’ll press on with them regardless.
    I know I was harsh in my criticism of him but I’ve had the last year and a half of my life turned upside down because of policies that he has had years and
    years to try to make more fair for all but were always put on the back burner until a few months ago.
    Yes Judy will be missed.She is caring and I hope Peter Dunne has learnt a valuable lesson from her.

    Comment by Rosie — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 5:04 pm

  6. Thank you UF, what you have said, as an objective observer is quite true. It is a point I have raised in the past. It is an easy trap to fall into, it happened with me and your thoughts on the happenings of this site have snapped me back to reality.

    Now the elections are over we need to move in one direction and it has been said time and time again that we need a leader to guide us in the right direction. A number of our ways need to be looked at and changed to bring the real meaning back to the men’s movement. This is not about the individual, but about all men and our issues. There has been a change in government which means there will be change to the ways somethings are done and the way our political leaders listen to us. That is what New Zealanders have chosen. UF had a brilliant insight to the movement and how it is seen from the outside. Nobody wants to listen to activists… no one. Nobody will pay attention to those that are putting others down because lets face it, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Two lefts don’t make a right either so the bickering and name calling has to stop. It is better to catch someone doing good and praise them than pull their feet out from under them just because they don’t have the same idea as you. That one idea may not have been great but when we shit all over people for it they choos not to share potentially fantastic ideas. Debates are what we need and really the only way in which we can get things changed… but they need to have an outcome, one which we can take to our MPs.

    Time for a more mature, informed move. It’s time to pick our battles as we can’t win the war – they have bigger guns than we do.

    The first thing I could suggest is a strong move by lobbying to make changes in the laws to charge perpetrators of abuse. Currently there is assault or Man assaults Woman but there is no Woman assaults Men which distorts the statistics drastically showing that only the man perpetrates domestic violence and child abuse.

    I say to you all, don’t be affraid to have your say and don’t be so quick to attack those that are trying to make a change. I think we have all learnt that lesson.

    Justin Harnish

    Comment by Tigerseye — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 5:56 pm

  7. Like many others i see peter dunne as the problem not the solution I first voted for him because of the family friendly view he espoused he has done nothing to follow up on this when he has had ample opportunity he spent nine years propping up the anti-family labour govt and only switched when he saw the writing on the wall Like it has been said he could put up a private members bill now if he wished but i am willing to bet he does absolutely nothing for men or families at least helen clark was honest about where she stood, unlike two faced dunne nothing

    Comment by bruce — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 6:05 pm

  8. Dear Luke,

    It is regrettable that you are no longer to be one of Judy’s researchers and also a confidant.
    Judy was an extremely good advocate on behalf of mens issues and will be missed by the movement seeking true gender equity.
    United Future in hindsight wasn’t the vehicle for her campaign of policy as the election results now show.
    In my opinion, what is needed, is that Judy Turner, Murial Newman, Richard Lewis, Bob McCroskie, Kerry Bevin, Gordon Copeland, Lewis Holden, and many other entities (perhaps inclusion of Destiny Church, Mormon Church, Jehovahs Witnesses, Scientologists, Masonic Lodge)and all others who wish Natural Policy not Social Engineering enshrined within Legislation thus fill the vacuum, they need to sit round a table and find the common ground discarding ideals.
    I believe that the common ground is Natural Family being the keystone building block, therefore any individual ideology be backburned unless subject to democratic inclusion therby focussing solely on this disparage of society

    I applaud you for using MENZ as a resource thereby providing Judy with research and then further, posting action being undertook.
    I wish you the best for your future endeavours.

    My Kindest Regard

    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09) 271 3020

    Comment by Paul Catton — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 7:47 pm

  9. Beautiful post. You have spelt out the issues very reasonably and IMO accurately.
    There are many men in society that have felt the bias when they built groups and to help men. They are still around but say that the men’s movement is still years away from working because of the differences. I will stop with the conspiracies.

    You did a lot of good work even though we gave you are hard time. (Ok, no generalising) I gave you a hard time at first.

    There is a lot of growing needed by some like myself and I just hope we can make it right this political term. Else it is not worth it. I can wait 5 years for the movement to get it’s act together.

    You will definitely be missed and so will Judy Turner. Yet I think you have left behind some strong movement in other areas. Thank-you very much and I hope you travel well.

    Comment by julie — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 8:41 pm

  10. All your work for Judy Turner, and your observant comments in this post, are greatly appreciated UF. I’m sorry to read that you have run out of energy, but not surprised.

    Your advice about setting up a moderate group is excellent, but the big problem has been with the men’s movement since the beginning – there is no obvious way to:

    Keep the extremists out of the area of communications.

    There are, of course, many other men who favour a moderate approach, but they also tend to get worn down by the infighting and personal abuse, and seldom stick around long-term.

    I’m aware that MENZ probably contributes to the radical reputation men’s activists have (even though the most abusive contributors do eventually get banned). However I think the anger and frustration expressed on this site does accurately reflect men’s experience in New Zealand which is the primary goal it was set up to achieve.

    There are rumours of a new organisation that may be set up sometime soon in an attempt to promote men’s issues in NZ in a way that doesn’t portray us all as extremists. If that happens, and it gains enough support from men like you, UF, perhaps we might begin to advance the cause a bit more effectively.

    Comment by JohnP — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 8:54 pm

  11. There are 2 moderate mens groupf presently functioning. I hesitate to promote them on John’s group though.

    Suffice to say they have rules and banish unruly members as several can attest to. However they are to widespread to be effective. The only group functioning in Auckland is undoubtedly being effective in their own judgement. I however have been abuse and called names once to often by its owner.

    Go well. We (Men) certainly need moderates to progress our cause. The are of diplomacy is the ability to tell a person to go to hell, and have them look forward to the journey 🙂

    Comment by Alastair — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 9:03 pm

  12. In reply to Alastair and perhaps many others?

    There is only currently MENZ being an “Open Forum” available to people to vent their spleen.
    However sometimes possibly detracting towards the position of unification, wounded terms of feminazism, wimps , Manginas are all emotive from people who have been subject to the guillotine called Family Law.

    I would advocate and have previously (parrot like) done so that we do not try to re-invent a wheel. is the premier website for Mens Issues.
    It has facilty to delete innapropiate language in postings by the moderator.
    Both, Union of Fathers and NSMC were advised to utilise this site and link for referral rather than half ass replicate.

    Having to reinvent Pauls_News, Pauls-News etc…. CYFStalk, CYFSwatch etc…is demanding on a few for the multitude and within the same is dissent.
    This moderated but open forum with a multitude of category is ideallic to the movement being the one stop shop with active and utilised referrals.

    John, within my short lived but forced involvement of mens advocacy, this site has the potential for many others to take their challenges and overcome.

    It was from information publicly accesible from this website generating tears that Craig and Louise Martin’s history was forwarded to media, now although seperated, they are unified, CYFS are currently being taken to task from the death of their child, I apologised to them for providing CYFSwatch their story thus promoting them to media attention, the rest as they say is history.

    I would ask that all readers of the site defer their differences and focus upon Natural Family first, any inconsequential ideoligical differences can be sorted through dialogue.

    Kindest Regards
    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge For Men And Families
    (09) 271 3020

    Comment by Paul Catton — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 10:53 pm

  13. UF, thank you for your wise, patient and constructive feedback, especially given at this delicate time in your career. I certainly do not see any condescension.

    Certainly, some men’s issue advocates detract from the causes they espouse, through immoderate communications and attacking people on their own side. This impression comes from noise made, rather than constructive actions taken.

    However, it is still true that “good cop, bad cop” tactics can help to bring the opposition to the table, with the moderates.

    These tactics can work, I have used them with as much success on the boys in blue, as they have enjoyed onto me.

    Unfortunately, it seems that presently these people are more interested in simply attacking out of frustration and in doing so, make themselves easy and worthy targets for our opposition. Their passion does not make up for their lack of listening to all sides, lack of effort to understand other people’s perspectives, lack of coordination and lack of provision of workable solutions.

    My criticisms, might apply to some degree to United Future, as well as to myself!

    Nonetheless, congratulations at obtaining 1 seat in Parliament. A seat at the right table has more influence, than moaning from the outside.

    Best regards, MurrayBacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 12th November 2008 @ 10:54 pm

  14. Re #12,
    Thanks for the post Paul. Yes MENZ is the main “Open” site. It came from Men’s Centre North Shore as I understand the history. Union of Fathers has actively decided we don’t wish to compete in the web-based resources area and we have sought to use MENZ for publicising our own work. We could do better, we will try.
    Unification is a good goal but I doubt we will ever get there. The first step has to be not shooting each other in the feet. We have some differences but many more similarities. We need to build on what we share together and our strengths and not nit pick about differences and weaknesses.
    Allan Harvey
    Union of Fathers

    Comment by allan Harvey — Thu 13th November 2008 @ 10:14 am

  15. This is going to be a hard thing for me to say with my own flaws to meet a standard worthwhile in NZ politics. But I am glad I have flaws because then I can help others through my own personal learning.

    The best thing that someone can do to help the movement is to think of others. Think how YOUR actions are going to affects others. (This is the self sacrificing that I have seen through some men here. OK, most men involved).

    I know that it is near impossible when you are in pain. You can barely see past the bias you yourself endure. And enduring keeps you alive. The anger often keeps you fighting for your children’s sake. One cannot imagine outside of this the insanity that goes on within you let alone outside of you.

    I had Labor Minister Mark Burton’s wife at my door representing CYF saying without even an introduction, “If you think we can’t get you because you have money think again”, she said. She went me and presented one sentence of hearsay in a community that is well known for tall poppy syndrome or having others bring you down because they don’t want to look inadequate yet it is false and only makes them feel better.

    I never knew and never expected for one moment that the left wing of politics hated anyone who represented success. And I never heard from the wife again. She just came in to destroy and nothing more.

    Looking back (which I did years ago) I understand what happened. My boss bought a house through a Real Estate friend that belonged to CYF. It was an unusual buy because it was a cash payment. The Maori had put a claim on the house which was expected to hold the sale back at least 2 years but the way things worked out the house was sold and bought in 6 weeks. The Maori did not have sufficient evidence to claim it.

    Of course this must have put Minister Mark Burton and his colleagues in a spin. But they were picking on the wrong people. My husband and I did not buy that house. We only rented it.

    CYF as a whole just love me. For all the work they do and all the lives destroyed a romantic story with a happy ending just makes their sacrafice worthwhile. But it was a very hard road. And to be honest, I don’t even know how I did what I did as a mother.

    You know, there are so many groups out there afraid of radical feminism. They fret like one can not imagine. Sometimes I hear CEOs say to me, “Please don’t bring us into this” and sometimes I am referred to higher staff who ask, “Have you spoken about this to anyone else?” because they are afraid I will drag them in.

    What is happening here is all wrong. There is no right in this.

    But somewhere along the line we must move with love and empathy. It is so needed in society now that generations have suffered and we are spiralling down to something worse than the animal kingdom.

    Love moves mountains. Self sacrafice is more valuable than all the gold in the world these days. This is the new high ground. And it would be a privilege to work with others who can understand this.

    I just wanted to say the above. We fight an enormous powerful enemy for the welfare of families and children. We must show, if we can, how what we offer is far more special.

    The left wing has no intention of even giving a little for they are concerned just one foot in the door will lead to another and another.

    I swear it is not I who am ill. It is the women and some men who are. But they make us all sick through their want for power. I don’t even know who they think they represent to be honest. I could not think of anything worse than being held back from empowerment by having to be told i am weak when I am not.

    To me sympathy is all that one can give. These people are not well.

    Thanx for listening.

    Comment by julie — Thu 13th November 2008 @ 11:06 am

  16. From across the Tasman, I send greetings and congratulations. This is a splendid site and shows the efforts that MRAs in NZ are putting in. Much better than in Oz. Keep up the good work – and play nicely. If in doubt remember Rule 303.

    Comment by amfortas — Thu 13th November 2008 @ 9:44 pm

  17. Rule 303, from Australian history during the Boer war. When Harry “Breaker” Morant was asked under what authority had he shot dead some prisoners by firing squad, he answered “Rule 303”, referring to the fact his soldiers had .303 rifles and that was the only authority he needed.

    This of course is metaphorical and in no way implies anyone is suggesting or condoning violence.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Fri 14th November 2008 @ 12:22 pm

  18. The Bad news for those using the web is Government control. and are both presently off line, apparantly blocked today by the New Zealand Government.

    The email I received from them a few minutes ago:

    I have just informed the Dom-Post that CYFStalk is being blocked in
    New Zealand, possibly by Peter Hughes of the M.S.D.

    It is clear now that this problem is exclsuive to New Zealand, that

    the only people in the world that cannot “see” the site are Kiwi’s.

    The server owners are going to move the site to another server with

    a new DNS, as a last resort “fix” but if the problem migrates over,

    even with the new DNS, then it will prove that the site is being blocked

    on purpose.

    While I could not access the site, the Dom-Post could. Is this coincidence?

    Stay tuned for more information!

    These sites could not be described as radical, Ration Shed would be worse! If it is correct – And I emphasise the matter is still being investigated, it does not bode well for freedom of speech in NZ.

    Back on Topic, Judy Turner will be missed. Muriel’s newsletters are thought provoking.

    Comment by Alastair — Fri 14th November 2008 @ 1:10 pm

  19. Alistair, the control of the Internet free speech can be found on Canada’s Human Rights commission also. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a UN movement.

    Comment by julie — Sat 15th November 2008 @ 1:16 pm

  20. Anyone know of any developments in getting cyfswatch available again? Does anyone have a stored version of it as it was?

    I would recommend that a few of us personally back up and save the MENZ site. Quite possibly it also will be suppressed by NZ authorities. NZ has no constitution and free speech is definitely not protected.

    Comment by Hans Laven — Sun 7th December 2008 @ 1:03 pm

  21. Yes, is running and reasonably open. It is to be amalgamated with “Watch” This is happening as we speak. One reason it went down for so long, the group that owned our overseas server went bust 🙁 Fortunately there are people overseas who support our goals. It is re-emerging from a very deep pit.

    Feel free to join. We specialise in CYF, but we are all affected by the FC and MSD. I assure you it is going to grow.

    Comment by Alastair — Sun 7th December 2008 @ 2:45 pm

  22. Re #12
    As everyone will know, there is currently a new and very daunting story about OT (Cyfs).
    This has brought up some awful memories of the ripping apart of my own family. I chose a home birth for my daughter, due to fear and fear alone. We had been well informed of Cyfs history of uplifting a child from a hospital immediately after birth. I went into labour with the terror of knowing it could still happen, even with a home birth.
    But in regard to my reply here, this is the first time for me to find out who forwarded our story to Cyfswatch. I was never told. However, sadly, nothing has changed.

    Comment by Louise Martin — Wed 12th June 2019 @ 7:53 pm

  23. Dear Louise Martin,
    you and your ex-husband have my sympathies.
    I have felt for your loss, from first hearing about what went on, many years ago. I know quite a few people who have been through similar, alas.
    Thank you for your comment.
    Best wishes for the future.
    Yours faithfully,
    Murray Bacon.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Wed 12th June 2019 @ 8:26 pm

  24. This post was published four days after the 2008 general election.

    By this stage the coal-face had taught me a lot.

    The two most important things I would say were this;

    – Our approach to supposed extremists

    – how that wore us into the ground

    As I walked among particularly UOF and other groups it was easy to see that if you sat and talked to and understood the railing extremist you got not only that person’s support but also a lot information out of him, especially the cause of the bother.

    Perhaps that was a result of my career experience.

    The same attitude was taken to me, and the message was personally delivered that I would need to have an attitude adjustment to be invited in to the in-group. Really?

    In mid 2004 I was reliably informed that National had already given away the 2005 election on the basis of a 2008 victory.

    That’s when Dunne and Winston did the most damage.

    I was happy to paticipate up to 2008 election on the basis a change of government was by far the lessor of two evils, but that came at a cost that some of us paid for.

    But aside from that I would suggest that those of us that were doing the hard yards were worn out, while the moderate collective sat back and patted each other on the back for their victory.

    My take then was we would have some mild improvement from National, and I think we did, but when the next Labour Government turned up we’d see extremism in government far worse than anything the naughty boys were up to.

    This is something Peter Zorab said to me more than twenty years, “It’s not the extremists that are the problem, it’s the moderates.

    I think he was as right then, as I think I am now.

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 10:44 am

  25. Some of us were well aware of the dysfunctional nature and unacceptable actions in government by 2008.

    From someone at the coal face of parliament to give the above advice, just keep doing it nicely and you will get somewhere was in denial of the nature and behavior of parliament.

    It didn’t work, did it?

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 11:13 am

  26. # 25,, Boonie,,, yes, we did not need hind sight to see (that to my knowledge) the problems for Men in the areas of discussion have not taken much movement since then, if any.

    I am glad I read this background, this post, I am green here and therefore feel I can look from the outside inward and yet I see the same as has been said before, that a lack of cohesion holds back what could be forward movement.

    Any kind of political backing therefore must be supported, this may lead to media and with the election still sometime away may give some substance to Men’s issues in the public eye.

    I would expect by now that all Men’s groups that are concerned, STILL, with the welfare and the issues Men face in today’s society, that these groups would all have written to and thanked the political party who are willing to be a voice for Men. To have offered information toward a goal in achieving some light to be shone into and through the tunnel.

    So don’t work together then, but work toward the goals you share via a voice that at least, possibly, may get heard.

    I am ‘no one’ here, and I do not mean ‘to be’, but I still have eyes, and though you have been here before, I can still see.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 1:19 pm

  27. Small groups are drawn into the political realm with the promise of change.

    It was said above, when I read through the comments the need for that collective force.

    This is a difficult thing to realise.

    It’s probably even harder to accept and achieve but only because the leading group cannot organize the compromises.

    It takes years of learning to gain a realistic perspective and as you can see we’re doing the same thing over again.

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 1:40 pm

  28. In 2011 many of us heard about or read the article in North and South, In Praise Of Men, Paul Callister wrote a stirring piece bringing up the fact that certain Men in our society were being left behind and it was going unnoticed to boot. The below article was from two years before.
    Rack it all up to experience, and the rack will bend under the weight.

    We need Professionals like Paul Callister on side, I found from his 2011 study that he cared more, but still only tremors exist, no rupture of change, we all know what stands in the way.
    By the way, his look into Men in this North and South issue mainly looked at things economically and with that fall out, there is so much more meat on this bone that needs to be exposayed.

    an excerpt…
    A rather fractured “men’s movement” here and abroad has tried to highlight men’s health woes, and what it sees as preferential treatment of women by courts in the areas of child custody and domestic violence. But there has never been the coherent sense of mission that underpinned feminism, and the seriousness of the project has often been undermined by the sheer loopiness of its lunatic fringe.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 1:44 pm

  29. I think there’s a calculation going here too.

    Take a organisation like Family First.

    It’s good old Bob years to realize that the pool of available ‘nice people’ is quickly getting smaller and the pool of ‘not so nice people’ is getting bigger.

    He wouldn’t be only one who is being forced to climb down off his very high horse.

    There’s a fear that ‘you’ might destroy my organization and that’s exactly what some people want to do on behalf of another organization.

    That’s the test of leadership, to overcome these particular issues.

    You can’t get anywhere on a horizontal platform with only the people you consider similar.

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 1:56 pm

  30. *It’s taken good old Bob

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 1:57 pm

  31. But Boonie, there is no promise coming from any one for real change, that change has to be made up as we go along, can not be done alone(one group) and should not be done alone, we have all the guys in NZ.

    Men who are happily struggling along or happy in their worlds are gunna be oblivious, but if any one of them should fall, they will still struggle to find representation, them they will know what the hell is going on here.

    It is a much harder task than feminism was because half of the population could see and feel what the hell was going on and academics jumped with delight onto that band wagon, it seems at that same time Men were starting to feel the pinch.

    To me it seems, if we were to find reasons why, a big part of the down grading of men started with a one parent situation, to the degree that boys and young men were not out of touch with their counterparts, in not supporting the family as a whole, this has lead to the individual struggle that Men today take on the chin.

    So now we have to campaign to get more Men into areas of work they have been nugged out of, back into education and we also have to accept that two generations?, of Men have been disregarded. There will be bugger all compensation, only, hopefully headway.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 2:08 pm

  32. #29,, Yes, the very good Mr McCoskrie, has said they lost their champion when Muriel Newman left the room… she now fries many a fish and uncatchable fish, but a great voice none the less, like him, he must know how this plight for Men is as hard as his now is.
    …hang on a moment ,,, should not his issues align with the ones here, well of course but we remain separate,, we need some welders I think.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 2:24 pm

  33. It’s natural to think this is wrong and it shouldn’t be too hard to fix.

    I think many of us have been there and now realize just how hard this is.

    Younger people, potential leaders need to taught what we’ve learned save them falling down the same holes we did.

    If this site can’t show at the very least the history of failure then a lot of us have wasted our time.

    Comment by Evan Myers — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 2:24 pm

  34. #33,,It IS a really enormous task, but it is a really small country.

    I have been utterly blown away that Real Good People who have voice out there are still ‘real’, they will stop and discuss, and give advice even. Communication is at an all time crazy high but it is almost natural now, so if you want to get a reply from some one you respect your chances of getting that reply, that discussion, that advice, those chances are high.
    My main fear is losing all Ya’s Cowboys’ one day.
    Let’s weld some more.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 2:47 pm

  35. Communication is at an all time low.

    A communications degree is about the distribution of information.

    Media becomes increasingly disjointed as they compete with social media and increasingly divided into left and right wing bias.

    The younger generation lacks comprehension and is in tune with the political dimension – your elders failed you, look at the mess.

    This is not communication.

    It’s distributed information, persuasion, confusion amongst other things.

    We’ve even redefined communication to the point where we struggle to understand each other.

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 3:14 pm

  36. #35,,re phrasing ..Communication means, the acceptance of that means and the many means of communication….the ability to contact a great variety of people and the acceptance and willingness in receiving that information….and don’t forget I was talking about communicating with Real Good People here.

    I am also flabber ghasted at the lack of real communication on a human to human basis these days.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 4:07 pm

  37. “It’s an enormous task.”

    Yes, it is.

    Parliament would not want to admit fault. But if the House of the Bitch is faulty how do you describe that problem?

    They have lowered the standard of what is acceptable but refuse to acknowledge that, so in turn have lowered the standard of acceptability in their function. Something I wrote about in relation to the Family Court a few years back.

    So, how does that affect us who hold a set of beliefs. We want to defend what we have done as correct and valuable within a disintegrating environment.

    This affects our relationship with other people stuck in the same circumstances.

    We become not only silos in society but we lose our critical judgement of what’s collectively happening. We can’t see anything better to do other than what we are doing and we have a determination to preserve that because we can’t see value in what others are doing.

    If we can’t exercise our own judgment we are left to rely on someone empowered to do that for us.

    As individuals left in this position of only our belief and lacking critical judgment we are not able to see the falsity of own or of others actions.

    We lack communication and understanding to the point that now not only parliament cannot admit fault but neither can we come back to this site and apply critical judgement to our own efforts.

    We’re stuck in this bind where what I’m doing is not wrong, and I believe it’s helping but collectively we are getting no where.

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 4:31 pm

  38. Having given so much one could feel that they may have tried everything, after all it’s been a while…and no one got any where but you can see that along the way some people did see what was happening,,, this can not be put on any one’s shoulders,,, it has to be ALL,,,.
    I get told the charities are all fighting for the same funding,, it’s creating competition, stopping people from working together? for the same cause?
    This is everyone’s cause,,, well you know, our Guys, our kids, guys here have worked so hard to see their kids, remain a Dad against all the odds,, they have all had great strength, after that gathering for a common voice should be a something that could be asked for, for nothing is as bad as what they’ve already endured.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 5:57 pm

  39. That common voice is a good point.

    The common voice of women is different to men.

    They relate on levels of pregnancy, childbirth and female competition.

    Men relate to their children as individuals by comparison to others.

    Sure we have a common ground as fathers but are individuals in many other respects including career even though we might be part of a unit and team.

    The make connectivity and cooperation has been dismantled and compromised.

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 6:08 pm

  40. * Male not make if that’s confusing.

    Comment by Boonie — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 6:10 pm

  41. The voice of the Men of this country is theirs, they are from a surgeon to a landscape guy. They may never meet but they have a common cause.

    Men have themselves to offer, they are the coaches, the forgivers, the humour and the boyish fun, the experienced, the Father’s, the Grandfather’s, the brothers, the uncles, the Great Grandad’s, the friend, the cousin, and there in lies friendship and solidarity.

    Comment by mama — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 8:01 pm

  42. The way it was.

    The way it should be.

    But that’s not the realty.

    How often do you even see men alone with a children out on the street?

    Comment by Evan Myers — Thu 13th June 2019 @ 11:25 pm

  43. @38 I hear where coming from.

    One of the fallacies I think we fall for is women worked hard to change their position men have to do the same.

    A small group of academics and a small group of vocal protestors attracted some sympathy and things started to change. Major changes like the domestic violence where the product of a disgruntled American immigrant.

    The fight back is not a level playing field. And the momentum we did have has been undermined by other men working against the mobilized group.

    Once again I hate being negative but new blood that doesn’t understand this is just the next meat going in the mincer.

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 8:20 am

  44. The first problem to overcome is the fact that Men are largely unseen, now it is almost worse because what is being seen of Men, the media has displayed public trashings.
    On a documentary I once watched an Italian guy said nz women were bossy. Is the second problem the self esteem of Men?….and what of camaraderie….

    …but to talk publicly,,,EVEN to school children about changing things like amount of women board members , pay equity etc…. this is not just a runaway train it is spreading unhealthy minds.

    Always it will be Men that control an out of control situation.
    It may take a lot of Men.

    Comment by mama — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 8:48 am

  45. And here’s another one we fall for.

    As much as I respect Warren Farrell for his contribution he has a political element that operates on catch phrases like this one.

    There has never been a successful society without the disposable male.

    I bought into this initially but then after getting more involved I stopped and thought about this.

    Sure, I see where he is coming from in terms of miltary defense. In a tribal situation male and females fought together. But in a civilised state women are centralized and men defend the perimeters.

    Likewise civilizations have relied on slavery. But not of men alone.

    When you look at social failure the male is not disposable, he has been disposed of. Regarded as unnecessary or irrelevant.

    That’s our situation.

    He’s a trouble maker. Dispose of him.
    He’s a nuisance. Let him rot in jail.
    Men are killing themselves in large numbers. So, they’re irrelevant.

    Farrell is talking about social rise, not social decline.

    What we don’t see then is that it suits someone else’s purpose to allow those men to be disposed of.

    Do you see the mistake he has made?

    Men are needed and required for success, and they should not be disposed of.

    When we see the male being disposed of historically we see failure.

    Parroting this political phrase hasn’t helped us.

    I notice you saying this Mama, “We need to value our men.” And the reason for that, is that if we don’t we will join the list of failed societies.

    We need to dispose of some of our myths which have worked against us.

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 9:03 am

  46. Just get seen, get rid of any jargon and be real, but in front of an audience.

    Hans said it in passing, just go ahead and start a Man only place, pay respect forward to the guy next door, don’t head on any one issue, there are too many,, just be seen to be a section of our Society that demands a bigger voice.

    Comment by mama — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 9:39 am

  47. Some one said on the AM show this morning,,, that she hates it when colleagues try to undermine each other,,, she was talkin’ ’bout Winston,,, what?…hey just because they are in government together it does not make them colleagues at all,,, however charities not coming together for their very common cause pisses me off, they are not politicians.

    Comment by mama — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 9:45 am

  48. That’s the approach the RSA has taken.

    They’re aware of the situation of the casualties of peace as I call them and are behind the Men’s Shed programme. Very successful in using their knowledge of war recovery to help out.

    Fairly non political but the last picture I saw on the net of their AGM wasn’t short of few bodies.

    They’re fairly invisible but we should appreciate that the situation exists, like the growing number of homeless responses to the men who have descended to the hopeless and helpless.

    The voices that might be the voices of change they chat away behind closed doors because they don’t want to be seen as one of them. Or subject themselves to risk.

    So, in other words they are arogant gutless little pricks.

    But this is the way it is.

    Like you say, Mama it is a big job. Pack a lunch, it could take all day.

    Until there’s a social realisation of what is actually happening then there will be no change.

    TBH, I don’t see it happening in my lifetime. But I’m happy to contribute to the written diologue.

    I’m old and grey but I’ve still got something to say.

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 10:01 am

  49. A colleague is a person one works with as opposed to a person who you are on good terms with.

    This is the way it is politely used in Wellington to refer to someone in your operational environment.

    Comment by Boonie — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 10:05 am

  50. #48,,,and much appreciation to those chatting behind closed doors, but sometimes you just have to go outsides and flip the kilt,, ha ha,,,anyway,, putting that image away, it is great to hear of groups helping groups and unfortunately if the older experienced tribesmen stop talking where will we be?

    #49,,,but this is Winston we’re talkin’ of,, I think he would say, “…well, I’d have to think about that..”

    Comment by mama — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 10:49 am

  51. “and much appreciation to those chatting behind closed doors,”

    Sorry, Mama, I’m not letting you get away with that.

    The primary motivation of closed doors is self interest.

    The same problem for which Winston is on your goat.

    When I was much younger in the middle of last century I was lucky to spend a bit of time in the Australian outback, where the real aborigines were (with an Australian colleague) and observe them in a tribal environment.

    Their degree of male cooperation would absolutely put us to shame.

    And this is one of primary reasons I see for the rise of civilization and the temptation to descend back into tribalism when society starts to fail.

    It’s to do with male coperation and cohesion.

    And there’s the current accusation of tribal lefties.

    But the right is just as guilty.

    The homeless tribe.
    The mobile tribe.
    The RSA tribe.
    The Menshed tribe
    The variety of business tribes
    And so it goes on.

    I can distinctly remember an older guy ringing Leighton Smith on talk back one day and he said,

    “If we don’t stop this decent back into tribalism we will lose our society.”

    I remembered that because at the time I heard what he said but I didn’t understand what he meant.

    I believe after all this time I’m on the same page as him, but by the age of his voice he probably isn’t still alive now.

    It wasn’t a political slogan. It was a piece of wisdom that took me a while to figure out.

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 11:25 am

  52. You;re right,,, appreciation should follow the actions, murmuring is still recognition of the issues at least though, better that then stone cold silence.

    Winston is not on my goat, he has his own and if you have ever owned goats, well they sure can be a thorn in your side but they also eat your thorns.

    Comment by mama — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 12:28 pm

  53. “murmuring is still recognition of the issues at least though, better that then stone cold silence.”

    I wasn’t quite sure what to think when I read that?

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 14th June 2019 @ 3:17 pm

  54. #53,,lost in translation, I thought it was the groups behind closed doors ,,I get stuck on those sometimes, yesterday was one of those days.

    Comment by mama — Sat 15th June 2019 @ 6:43 pm

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