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Women’s refuge and boys

Filed under: Domestic Violence,General — Julie @ 5:47 pm Mon 15th September 2008

I found this article while trolling (gosh I like that word) some men sites which had me questioning how NZ works. BTW, Glenn Sacks is a wonderful advocate for men’s rights. The article was written to describe a DV conference and this is part of the article.

One morning during the conference I had breakfast with two remarkable ladies, Erin Pizzey and Patricia Overberg. Pizzey founded the first battered women’s shelter in the world in 1971, and Overberg was the first battered women’s shelter director in California to admit male victims of domestic violence to a shelter. As bad as things are, both of them told me things which were amazing and horrifying. Pizzey told the following story:

A woman was being abused by her violent husband and sought shelter. She had three children, two young ones and a 12-year-old boy. She wanted to go to a battered women’s shelter and, of course, take her children with her. However, the feminists who run the battered women’s shelters in England have a policy that no boys aged 12 or older are allowed into the shelters.

The woman was presented with the equivalent of Sophie’s Choice. Either she could return to her violent husband, and risk both herself and her children, or she could submit to the feminist policy. She chose the latter. Rather than allow the boy to stay with his mother and his siblings in the battered women’s shelter, the boy instead had to wait in the police station, while his mother and siblings went off to the shelter. The English equivalent of child protective services was called, and the boy was picked up and placed in foster care!

Overberg told me the same thing happens in California and in much of the United States.

I don’t doubt what Pizzey and Overberg say, but I still find it a little hard to get my head around. For one, one could make the feminist argument that this policy keeps abused women in violent relationships because they will not want to leave their abusers if they cannot take all of their children with them. Secondly, I find it a little hard to believe that even the feminist true believers who run the shelters could be so bigoted and uncaring.

Sooooooo, I thought I would start asking some questions. Answers below:

NZ is a little different in that each case is scrutinised on its own. Teenagers both male and female are not so easy to take care of in a safe house and I think most who understand teenagers can understand the problems that can arise especially around a safe house’s hidden location.

But yes, males over 12 are something that is an issue in NZ. Women’s refuges will look at the type of child as in his mental growth etc and the mother may be asked if she can find a relative or friend for him or them to stay with. CYFS is not a first option for our refuges in NZ.

Phew! This had me somewhat worried.

Onto another part of a discussion: Eastern Women’s refuge is holding a meeting for a men’s caucus to hear what men need and to hear what men have to say. This is no joke or tactic to put men down but for men to get together and speak freely. In fact, women are only allowed to stay for the open part between 6pm and 7pm. For the next hour or so men will be discussing their issues amongst themselves with a healthy police presence to also hear from the men.

The aim of the meeting is to get a men’s refuge up and running although at this stage it is not expected to take the boys around age 12 unless they are with a father. I have left the details under events.

BTW, I had to speak up about the men here being Jim Bagnall and Paul Catton. You guys must come because your input will not just be welcomed but real. I hope that others can also make it.

57 Responses to “Women’s refuge and boys”

  1. fidelbogen says:

    So. . . .a meeting for MEN, and women are asked to leave??
    Whoa! Is it just possible that that “the worm has turned”,
    at least in NZ? Truly, this is rich and strange. . .

  2. Jim Bailey says:

    There is no need for Women to hold a Mens Meeting on weather we Need Mens Refuges – If these Women are for real just lobby for funding for Men run Mens Refuges – In fact lobby for the same number of refuges

    Many Men have called for Mens Refuges for many years

    Onward – Jim

  3. julie says:

    C’mon Jim. That’s all I am going to say because you know how the system works.

  4. martin swash says:

    Maybe 1 male refuge would be a good idea in a large city like Auckland, but personally i think it should not be called a “refuge”, a more male friendly name MUST be chosen.

  5. Jim Bailey says:

    The same number of Mens Refuges as there are Womens Refuges would give us Men Equal Opportunity to do many other things – Many other things do stem from Womens Refuges

    MEN should not sercombe to being overseen by Women in any way – My predecessors had that with the very early Mens Centre North Shore

    The original committee which was eventually ousted because it was Women leaded even though there was only one of them – That one still has a say when Mens Centre applies for funding – John-P knows better than I in these difficult matters

    Sadly there will be a group of wankers that will sercome to the meeting offered by Eastern Womens Refuge and thus slow down the process of Men having ALL say in their own refuges

    Onward – Jim

  6. Alastair says:

    I think you really mean “Succumb” ???

  7. Colin of Nazareth says:

    why can’t males stay at a womens refuge ???, violence does not discriminate…

    (put us in tents in the back yard)

    what next, gay and lesbian refuges, oh pleasee….

  8. Jim Bailey says:

    YO! Nazareth Your’re onto it
    Ou Yeah Alastair, your’re off subject as usual, wasting space
    Onward – Jim

  9. Jim Bailey says:

    Julie – Yes I know how the system works – Women trying to get men to succumb (A-NOTE) and some if not enough will, to slow down the inevitable Equal Walk we (Genders) were born to have together

    Onward — Jim
    Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
    Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com

  10. julie says:

    There is a member of this site who hasn’t posted here for some time who is building a men’s centre in the South Island. This centre won’t be a Government property because he has got the funding from men alone and men are building it.

    I am pretty sure it is also a refuge but using a different name. And don’t forget about Tauranga and UOF.

  11. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Julie,

    I will be attending.

    Kind Regards
    Paul Catton
    East auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09)271 3020

  12. julie says:

    I am so pleased Paul. They didn’t know about you.

  13. allan Harvey says:

    Good on you Paul.
    I think it is madness to boycott an initiative even before you have heard about it. I get a significant number of referals here in Kapiti from Women’s Refuge. Often it is good to work together on cases. My most recent involvement with them; Dad now has a Protection Order, Occupancy Order and Day-to-Day care.

  14. fidelbogen says:

    It sounds like some of you folks are so embroiled in the local scene in NZ, that you don’t see the forest due to the local thickets and briars which you are hacking and cursing at. However from a global perspective one sees the forest. To my mind, it is nothing short of a bombshell that a male space is being carved out of turf which is politically (and radically) female, and that women are excluded from this space! And not only that, but MALE agents of state power (i.e. police) are present as well, to share that male-bonding moment, and be instructed by it!

    For my own part, I find the implications large. . .

    Symbolism! It’s the symbolism, man! Sometimes a powerful symbolic victory is just the thing you need to break the ground so the plow can follow. Only, in this case it sounds more than merely symbolic. It sounds like a deep structural re-alignment of power has occurred, enough to permit such a novel development in the first place! To me, it seems that the RADICAL FEMINIST WIMMYN have been squeezed a tad closer to the margin – otherwise, how could such a thing even have happened? Somebody is overriding them, and that circumstance alone ought to make cause for celebration. By any objective, quantitative measure, it ought to be accounted as progress.

    Point taken, that men must not live under the supervisory female gaze, or exist upon the graces of any female power base whatsoever! And that very principle should, in future, be the torch that lights the way. Just remember: it’s a rare victory that goes “far enough” or approaches anything like perfection. The most we can do is count steps upon the journey, and know when we are getting closer. And closer indeed we shall travel, if we add step upon step within the correct compass bearings.

    A closing thought: if there be some objection to terms like “refuge” or “shelter” to describe the proposed men’s accomodations, then such terms would go by default to the women’s centers exclusively. Politically, that would tend to reinforce the embedded concept of women as a special victim class in society. After all, it would imply that women are the ones uniquely in need of refuge or shelter! And that is precisely the cultural mindtrap we wish to fight clear of, yes?

  15. julie says:

    Guys, fidelbogan is right. This is an opening for men. Someone will be representing Man Alive and don’t forget how Viviana women’s refuge is supportive too.

    We can only wish at the moment for a men’s refuge. Funding is the problem as Jim B says. But it is not as simple as women lobbying to get men refuges. Someone has to run them too.

    You and I (all of you) must know women in the community will do this if it is needed to be done.

    Can’t men work this out when the meeting happens? It is a big deal meeting.

  16. Jim Bailey says:

    Yes well said Re 14&15 – However I believe Women can best help by challenging those who BLOCK funding for Mens Issues of many types and show their sincerity in that way

    For Men to succumb to Womens leadership or HELP in these matters is inviting the trip back to Equality to take longer.

    I appreciate that there is a growing number of Women that realise they have been coned into believing Men are the problem well let them take the next step and stop those who block the funding many of us have applied for

    The need for Mens Refuges, Mens Health, Mens Cave meetings is enormous we don’t need a Women lead meeting to examine it, no matter how nicely it be worded.

    We need the reigns taken off so Men can find their own way forward

    Examine ALL funding applications for the last 10 years to ALL Orgs that offer funding including Govt. and open the flood gate – Let these Women prove their sincerity.

    Start with Jill Nerheny from Birkenhead Community Trust – She has seen 100’s of applications and vetoed most of them accept those that sop to her Feminist ways, blind to the needs of Men and THEIR Children.

    The equivalent powerful Women will be in ALL local body run community trusts or similar

    I appreciate that we NEESD to listen to whats happening off the limited shores of our beloved NZ

    Why do you think I have developed the Ration Shed Communique http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rationshed which is currently pumping out News of those developing better ways ahead for Family Law and Social Policy from many parts of the world and growing fast

    Onward — Jim
    Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
    Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com

  17. julie says:

    Jim, I can’t beleive you continue to knock progress this way.

    You ARE the problem. But I have to tell you that you are one unbelievable awesome guy.

    You would like fidelbogan heaps for he too thinks that feminism must be held accountable for it’s actions in the past and pay for it.

    But I doubt he has spent the money into this as you have. I don’t want you to be a forgotten. Never, ever, ever. You know how hard this has been and I promise you that feminism will be seen in its shiny stuffed up glory.

    I even laugh with these refuges how screwed up staunch feminists are. We all see the price paid and you know yourself I have lived it.

    But enough is enough. Let’s stop men dying over this. Their lives are far too important to ignore and no money or sacrafice is too great to make it right.

  18. allan Harvey says:

    Jim,
    Get over the past, it can’t be changed. The issue is how we go forward not get trapped into feeling sorry for ourselves and seeing success as too difficult.
    Kids and Dads are too important to not get involved. No one is stopping you working as you choose but why do you have to be so negative and destructive towards others with different opinions. Unfortunately you have set yourself up as an Icon and don’t listen to others.
    Time to walk your own talk Jim! Stop knocking the efforts of others. You claim a fathers coalition is non hierarchical but you try to shout down any one who disagrees with you

  19. Jim Bailey says:

    Allan,
    I agree **The issue is how we go forward**
    That is what we are discussing Onward – Jim

  20. allan Harvey says:

    Jim, I quote item 5 above where you say,
    ** Sadly there will be a group of wankers that will sercome to the meeting offered by Eastern Womens Refuge and thus slow down the process of Men having ALL say in their own refuges**

    I know of two dedicated spaces for Men and their children that are currently active to serve as refugues. Both have significant sffort and input from women.
    No one is stopping you living in a male only cave but don’t be insulting to others who have a broader picture and want to walk forward in the sunshine with their children.

  21. julie says:

    Jim, You talk of a way forward. Well,

    I am sick of the MRM on the whole. It is a conservative/libertarian movement. Why is men’s issues a political side anyhow? And don’t you know that both sides are really one movement? re:Rockefeller.

    This is crap. All of these words on men’s sites are questionable.

    Let’s stop a control issue and work together. Honestly, I have about had it up to a place of no return with BS. We live in today whether we like it or not.

  22. Jim Bailey says:

    As Allan and a few of his mates are about to learn the way fwd is never about succumbing but negotiating

    It seems we have an opertunity here to negotiate

    We need to set an Equal stage to do that

    Allan will find it in lesson ONE, before even morning tea

    I have made suggestions and got little sense back

    In fact it seems most have given in before the Equal Stage is in place

    Thus we lose from the start

    I certainly don’t live in a male only cave – How boring – But there is a place for them and refuge is one of those places

    There will be no sunshine in our Families if we succumb in my case to WINZ-/-MSD or any other suck to appease those who have damaged, Mum Dad and the Kids

    Onward – Jim

  23. allan Harvey says:

    Jim to negotiate you need to treat people with respect.
    You support antagonising people. No-one wants to negotiate with a loud bully.
    You are invited to a meeting to negotiate on with the Eastern Women’s Refuge.
    They even offer you “male only time” (personally I find that demeening and I would move to continue as a full meeting) so you can have your rant about “the Equal Stage”. Personally I think build a forwartd pathway from where we find ourselves. Your approach seems to say we need to clear the decks of all women and Labour Party types and build “the Equal Stage” first. I suspect no one will be looking at your “Equal Stage” (even if you get that far) as it’s locked into conflicted basttles of the past.
    Onward, Jim, up and out of your rut before you dig yourself right through to China.

  24. Jim Bailey says:

    As the pendulum swings the Equal Stage will be built anyway – There will be enough pain on both sides to force real negotiation – I believe it’s well under way – We can bring it fwd by negotiating – I do not see Eastern Womens Refuge offering any negotiating – Certainly not in the Male only time – Or is it time for Men to spill their guts and thus give away anything to be negotiated as they are recorded.

    Look at your own writing before lecturing about respecting people

    I think you be right that there will not be anybody listening about the Equal Stage and thus failure is imminent.

    We as Men with Children have failed for many generations, there are more Children without either Mum or Dad or Both today than ever before and more while MEN mutter, resort to ego trips, help build the Empire of Injustice, etc.

    If I was in a rut I would be succumbing to Labour lead WINZ 8 years ABUSE of me and my Son and in a sense his mum while the so called Mens-/-Fathers movement mutters and gets into bed with those who damage Mum, Dad and the Kids either by apathy or weak negotiating.

    Onward — Jim
    Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
    Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com

  25. Jim Bailey says:

    Some wise words on Filelbogen’s BLOG

    Yes, men will learn to stand up for each other! At least, some men will. Other men not only won’t do this, but will mock the ones who do, and lie about them, and even undertake to repress them by violence! So the battle line forms directly down the middle of maledom. Keep your eye upon that line; watch it grow sharper and meaner and deadlier. Be prepared for what is coming down the pike, and stay ahead of the game!

    Onward – Jim

  26. julie says:

    Allan, the refuge didn’t say it like, “Men need their time let’s hope they do something with it”. But instead have been listening already.

    Men need to make their decisions alone. You forget that hundreds of community workers and maybe even 100’s of community groups have watched men suffer for decades. They all want something to happen.

  27. julie says:

    And Jim, you forget how important men are. You are second guessing your self worth. We have massive fatherless issues going on. Just look to the gangs.

  28. Jim Bailey says:

    26&27 illustrate precisely what I have been saying

    There will only be loss to more Men and their Children should Men-/-Dads blinded by the charm and subtlety of damaged Women fall for the invite to succumb to further so called Womens care of Men. Women telling Men who and what they are and how they should think.

    Let the Women who so called care show it by sorting out their own gender who are blocking the funding for Men to find their own way

    Open the flood gate – Spend GOVT money, from the consolidated fund where mostly male funded CS has gone for generations to support Family to fail policy. Spend it up to the amount solicited from the public and Govt funds under false claims for generations to build Mens Refuges (Don’t like the name for what it congers up).

    When we have the same number, of fully independent from Women run, Recovery Houses we negotiate.

    Or perhaps even better after 5 years of development and building the Recovery Houses into the Government funded though independent, resource centres and accommodation houses for Men and their Families – We negotiate

    Until then NO deal

    Onward — Jim
    Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
    Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com

  29. Allan Harvey says:

    Jim,
    Again you are not listening. It’s your view or nothing and you viciously attack others who have different opinions. That is precisely why guys don’t have many Govt. supported initiatives happening. We shoot ourselves in the feet. Women are not blocking us from funding, we shoot ourselves in the feet.
    There are efforts up and running that have been funded by men and our supporters (many who are wonderful dedicated hardworking women). We need to plan our strategy carefully. What we don’t need is moaners who kick any idea in its infancy and do virtually nothing of use themselves. Sideline coaching isn’t helpful. Choose what team you wish to play for, get in and support that team. Let those of us who wish to play other codes or in different teams do our own thing.
    Stop knocking others work Jim. You have the knives out for Union of Fathers (which may not be perfect) but we do try and have had some success. Quit your jealousy at that success and either try to be happy at what we do or shut up.

    Your suggestion that a flood gate of Govt. money would help anyone, I totally scoff at. Govt. money comes with so many strings we would look like a ball of wool and roll around the PC playground achieving absolutely nothing. We don’t need bureaucracy any more than we need sideline coaches and moaners.

  30. Tigerseye says:

    First of all, there is a need for some kind of hide-away for men so we can all agree on that.

    Is there some fighting in the ranks here? Anybody that knows anything about the history of mankind (there’s a PC nightmare) understands that in the begining we (the men) HAD to go out and hunt the beast to bring it home for the family to eat. It wasn’t anything to do with feminism or a mens movement but survival. We were stronger – but the females were the mothers. They were the ones to raise us and our children and so it was obvious that the power of the world came from a goddess. Fast forward a few millenia and the males have this idea that they are actually stronger than women, ergo anything that could make the world must have been male… and the fight began.

    Does anybody see where this is leading? No offence to anybody who worships any kind of diety but how can any power great enough be man or woman? But it goes on, and on, and on… then the greatest pollitical group lead the world with a feared and wrathfull masculine God on it’s side. At this time men were the people and women were basically worthless.

    50 years ago the worm started to turn for the women. It had to happen and I’m glad it did but the men let it go too far. We let it because of the guilt from generations past – just like the Waitangi treaty. It’s no longer about men and women, it’s political. Rmember, god doesn’t take sides… only we do.

    The point is, we don’t need to take the world back, we just want to be men again. If we go too far and get too judgmental we’ll start to hate women – personaly I love women.

    Or do we want to fight for the rest of human existance?

    Fairness and equlity is all I ask. Nothing more.

    I hope we’re not heading into a masculine take over because of our pride.

  31. julie says:

    We always seem to fight like this. And I don’t know why? It is just a meeting for groups who are trying to move forward. It doesn’t even have a political agenda as far as I can tell.

    Maybe nothing will come from it. And then our words towards each other would have been pointless.

  32. Jim Bailey says:

    Allan, I am listening – I am far from convinced that what I am hearing has any value – What is vicious about that? – Are you now into Labour Speak?

    Onward – Jim

  33. Jim Bailey says:

    Allan,
    You are very wrong – Some Women are blocking us from funding – I have already explained – Your mate Ann Hartley was Chair of our local community trust for quite some years in fact probably still is – Her main worker is Jill Nerhney BOTH have proudly admited to blocking Mens Centre North Shore funding in a public meeting, as it has crossed their desks for examination

    Most local bodies would have a similar system and more than likely run by Women and the odd man who do the same things – If you listened to some of what I have said we may be able to work together but when you deny my experience and thus call me a lier we go no where

    Why would I lie about these matters? – Why would I lie about the damage WINZ has done to my Son and I etc

    Get real man we are either on the same side or you have a very differnet agenda to me

    Onward – jim

    Men must learn to listen to each other most are not liers – Just males with different experience – How can we build on each others experience if we don’t listen?

    I don’t deny your opinion – I most certainly will challenge it if it is not in line with my experience and I expect the same as others

    Onward – Jim

  34. John Brett says:

    Top marks to Eastern Womens Refuge. Clearly they are one of the refuges which are NOT part of the “National Collective of Man-Hating Women’s Refuges”.

    I think we make a big mistake by treating all women as “The Enemy”.
    We all know men who are so damaged that they are unable to trust women again., We need to remember that the same also happens to women. These damaged people need our care, but must not be allowed to define the agenda, or try to speak on our behalf.

    I know many very skilled women in positions of authority who are desperate for an opportunity to help- (e.g. my sister, who runs the Marlborough Kindergarten Association).

    I have met many refuge staff who are very supportive, especially when the SFST (Warren Heap) had a refuge running.
    The problem we had with that refuge was simply LACK OF RESOURCES. No-one was paid, everything was voluntary, and burnout was the inevitable result.
    These women may have and offer skills we need to get a permanent, sustainable refuge up and running.

    I look forward to this meeting with anticipation.

  35. allan Harvey says:

    Jim,
    I can see you are trying to understand. That’s great.
    Yes I know Anne and Jill. I have not worked closely with either of them.
    I’m sure I could have a chat with either of them and they would appreciate the work I do for guys. It’s a question of approach and style.
    Perhaps you need to focus on how your personal style puts many people off. Look at Paul’s News where you have been banned twice. Surely you are not insinuating that is a Labour Party feminist spin machine? Why is it that you and a few others get excluded. My posts there are pretty robust but I am tolerated.
    It is your style and approach that undoes much of the work you try to do. In person you present much better than on paper. You get into arguments where none is sought. John, Julie, Alistair, myself we want to encourage and support you in your valuable work. You take offence at small things and go on the attack.
    I’m not calling you a liar. I think you are a very honourable chap who has been hurt by a brutal system.
    However I feel you call me a liar. For example, I don’t find the same blocking of funds that you have experienced. In fact the problem is more to make sure we target what we apply for rather than get saddled with promises we have made that we can’t fulfil. Just like you describe for Warren Heap’s Refuge: Money isn’t always the problem; commitment, people and support when the going gets tough are much bigger issues in my mind. Those are what build sustainability.
    I don’t think we have hugely different agendas. However, our strategies to get there are vastly different. I’m into co-operation, research and networking. It’s working for me and lots of groups I’m involved with.
    Julie does a grand job from what I see and that’s her style as well. She could be a great coach!!
    Likewise you can’t take everything personally. WINZ are not trying to damage you or Javan. Their staff seek to help. However they feel threatened, second guessed, appealed to the Minister in their dealing with you. When this happens they protect themselves. It may be by saying little, it may be by double checking everything according to their rules, and it might end up with a Trespass Order from their offices.
    When you start meeting barriers take a look at what might be contributing to those barriers. Build bridges not walls. Charm don’t shout. Present research, don’t argue from fixed positions. Listen to everyone, even fools have information we can learn from.
    From my experience it works.
    I think a great starting point for a new Jim B Warrior might be that meeting and making some links with the Eastern Women’s Refuge. How about it, Jim? Women aren’t that scary and if you are nice to them lots will be nice back to you and more importantly to our cause.
    Onward Christian Fathers, or Muslim Fathers or Atheist Fathers, or whatever Father you wish to be. In the end it’s about the kids and they need Dads.

  36. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Jim, Julie, Allan and others

    Debating for debating sake is a waste of time.

    I will be in attendance to listen, and invited, perhaps give guidance to what achievement this forum wishes to realistically obtain.

    Kindest Regards
    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09) 271 3020

  37. dad4justice says:

    Have many on the feminist payroll will be in attendance?
    Welcome Judas.

  38. Paul Catton says:

    Dear Peter,

    My payroll is self funded.
    And extending a cause that exceeds the parameters of the webmaster, I am now unable to post items upon the site.
    However, you are in Christchurch, I am in Auckland, they are on my doorstep and wish to give a dialogue and perhaps import information upon matters that have never been conceived by the Collective.

    Kindest Regards
    Paul Catton
    East Auckland Refuge for Men and Families
    (09) 271 3020

  39. dad4justice says:

    Sorry Paul I did not mean to undermine this event.
    My comments are for the two faced so called fathers
    rights activists that work for the dirty low life enemy.
    In solidarity brother and remember this is a VERY DIRTY
    fight.

  40. Jim Bailey says:

    Well now that my sharing all my reason and experience that shows me to be very wary of this invite has turned into a teach Jim some manners session I wish you all well as you fall further away from gaining gender Equality in these matters.

    Onward — Jim
    Supporting, a fathers coalition and building the Ration Shed
    Go http://ration-shed-4-tier-foodbank.blogspot.com

  41. Darryl Ward says:

    It is common sense that building positive working relationships with representatives of all political parties achieves more than slagging them off.

    That is why I am dumbfounded by the witch hunt mentality of those criticising Allan.

    Surely it is fantastic that we actually have someone in the Labour Party?

    Now what we need is to also have well balanced fathers’and men’s activists in National, ACT, United Future, the Greens, NZ First and the Maori Party.

  42. MurrayBacon says:

    I applaud Darryl and Paul, for being willing to listen and discuss.

    At this point, people can then usefully make up their mind. (Conversely, prejudging is throwing away some sort of opportunity. Isn’t this what we are accusing the bench monkeys of sometimes doing?)

    What can be lost by talking? Maybe much can be gained?

    I like to think of activists as actually doing activity!

    For all of the talk going round, how much action is really occurring?

    Moaning is for the already defeated.
    Predictions of doom, is for people who can’t remember what life is for and are too lazy to put in the work, to understand the issues and the options.
    Negotiating is for people who want to make hope.

    I want to support people who are trying to make hope.
    Best regards, MurrayBacon.

  43. Perseus says:

    Witchunt ? That is an exaggerated thing to say, but i agree with Darryl about getting representatives in NZ political parties

    I think the problem with Allan, is that in effect, all he is saying is “Do Nothing, Work with the government, be happy with your 2 hours a fortnight visitation rights, that is how to be a good Dad”, mmmmm yes that is going to achieve a lot isn’t it ?

    Of course, Dads must show we are responsible caring parents, but these are terrible terrible biassed laws which can only be overturned by changing the status quo. his will only be achieved by highlighting our injustice and peaceful and non peaceful protest and yes, working with political parties too. Governments care about losing income, and if CS collection trends are changed, then laws will change too.

    Allowing women to exclude Dads from kids’ lives through false allegations is GROSS INJUSTICE. If government revenues could be shown to be reduced because of these laws, then this will be a powerful factor in getting more just, fair laws for our kids

  44. Jim Bailey says:

    Tis a sad day when Men collude with EVIL

    Men who think they have the power to talk EVIL around

    If Allan wants to get into bed with the most twisted group of leaders this country has ever had at its helm then he has to take the reaction from those who read the way it is

    If I and 16 others are prepared to stand outside Margaret Wilsons House and protest of that EVIL and many of you did similar – Most of you watched her and her twisted mates manipulate the Law and bureacrats that administer it to lock me up – who am I to exchange pleasantries with one who befreinds and probably feeds information to that very person , most certainly feeds her mates.

    Who are you all that have been informed – Much of it deep in the bowls of this our best website and yet walk into the mine feild without mine detectors – Especially as the mine detectors are in your armory

    As Gandalf said You FOOLS Run from this EVIL

    Allan-H and John-B are the very LOUDEST so called DADS advocates that have berated me for my way ahead with DYSON and her blindly obedient bureaucrats and thus sided with the EVIL to bring me down. While it becomes more obvious that EVIL has made me and 1000’s of others powerLess to FATHER our Children.

    As those who also berated Steve Flynn will also find out very soon just how EVIL the enermy is.

    Yet we honour their suble destructive efforts with waffle like getting representatives behind enermy lines and standing for Fathers – Be fine it their intentions where honorable – I say neither are any advantage to the Men and Fathers movement of NZ nor those who are driven to sleep with Eastern Womens Refuge without condoms.

    Was it Chamberlin or Churchill that lead the west and rescued the world out of the immediate evil of their day?

    The world is in the grips of a far greater EVIL enermy today than it s was in the 30’s and early 40’s

    My Son and some of your Kids are behold to that evil while you mutter

    Onward – Jim

  45. Darryl Ward says:

    Jim, please get down off your high horse and stop berating us about what you call “EVIL”.

    “When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7 NRSV).

    Those of us who have been with the movement long enough to remember back to 1992, when the Child Support Bill was being passed, thought the national government of the day was bad, and we looked for salvation in labour, but that was 17 years ago now.

    Whther you like it or not, all laws are passed by politicians and they will continue to be after the election.

    We have two options.

    We can lobby and influence the politicians, a large number of whom are actually reasonable people, and prove by sober and rational words and actions that we too are reasonable people.

    Alternatively we can jump out and down making lots of noise while looking like a pack of nutters and alienating anyone and everyone of influence and achieving nothing. (That is not to say protest does not have its place, but I am not talking about strategic and intelligent protest here).

    Deliberately ruining the movement’s potential to achieve change for DADS and their children to satisfy a few people’s cravings for attention… now I would suggest THAT is something approaching EVIL.

    Who needs enemies with friends like that?

    UPWARDS!

  46. Jim Bailey says:

    Using the word of God as a doctrine of Balaam i.e. stumbling block will have its prince – Peacher

    Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. (KJV)

  47. Darryl Ward says:

    Jim

    I was quoting one of the most fundamental teachings of Jesus and one that is thoroughly appropriate in the context.

    BTW, the Authorised Version (the correct name for what you called the King James Version) is far too inaccurate to use for serious study. Treat yourself to a New Revised Standard Version.

    Kind regards

    Darryl

  48. julie says:

    The sad part about all this is that we have many politicians on father’s side who fear the repercussions of standing up not from other members of parliament but from the father’s themselves.

    Can you imagine how mad tax payers would get if a member of parliament fought for mum and dad to both get a DPB for sharing custody of one child? There would be an uproar especially when tax payers are already upset about the amount of taxes they pay and the way most beneficiaries could do some work at least.

    Can you imagine a politician standing to fight for a father in a custody case that has gone on for years and mud is being thrown from both parents? It would make the state look like the biggest idiot with the people taking one side over the other.

    How many times have politicians stated that standing up for a father in a family dispute is too dangerous to take on?

    I wonder sometimes if it is us as a group asking for the wrong things? Why are we expecting our own personal cases to determine how the country is run?

    Wouldn’t we be better off caring for others and producing a cause for the better of all males in society? One that doesn’t look anti women’s work.

    Wouldn’t we be able to show the bias and so called evil thoughts and actions through the media once a really good solid foundation exists that the people are for?

    Has not enough been done to show the commitment of the voters themselves over the years? How many people flocked to sign the petition for Wayne’s walk to Wellington and said, “About time”?

    As leaders of an organisation don’t you think it is other men who are important now? What are their needs? And should a leaders personal grievances be put before others? Everyone knows how you hit brick walls when selfish.

    Some men I would follow but some men I would not? And I think pretty much the whole of NZ would be thinking the same.

    When does the MRM turn the next page? The rest of society is already chapters ahead.

  49. Allan says:

    #43
    Perseus, I object to what you say. Do you know me personally? Have you spoken to some of the men (and women) I work with? I spend more than 40 hours a week working on fathers stuff, You hide behind some nom deplume and have a go at me by name. That is gutless!

    I wish to speak specifically about your paragraph;
    “I think the problem with Allan, is that in effect, all he is saying is “Do Nothing, Work with the government, be happy with your 2 hours a fortnight visitation rights, that is how to be a good Dad”, mmmmm yes that is going to achieve a lot isn’t it ?”

    I am immensely proud of my work providing supervised contact for children and their parents. Every second weekend I spend many hours with many families. It achieves a lot for the kids involved and I try to do no harm for the parents involved. I have worked with over 20 families in this way. All but one has progressed to unsupervised contact and several to shared care. I’m working bloody hard on the one case that has yet to go unsupervised.

    So many moaning here treat issues as theory. I’m doing the work. I’m parenting my own children, I’m working hard to assist other families as well. Stop moaning and get off your backsides. Any in Wellington who want to do some real work contact me on allan@uof.org.nz and I’ll find a job for you to do.

    Crawl out from under your anonymous rock Perseus, before you critisise people you hide away from. How many heads of Medusa have you really slain? I’m happy to trade numbers with anyone, anyday for the effectiveness of my own work.

    I’m not going to comment on Jim’s slanderous post (#44). Those of you who know me can make your own interpretation of that lot. You are a good bloke Jim. Get over your hurt, get back to parenting Javan. He needs you! Since you and Darryl are quoting scripture then my personal favourite that I try to follow is Michah 6:8. It’s my gold standard for the work I try to do.

    Allan Harvey

  50. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    The sad part about all this is that we have many politicians on father’s side who fear the repercussions of standing up not from other members of parliament but from the father’s themselves.

    List please those politicians who are on the fathers side.

    Wouldn’t we be better off caring for others and producing a cause for the better of all males in society? One that doesn’t look anti women’s work.

    Your assumption is that “we” are not. Thats pretty arrogant.

    Who decides what is “anti womens work”?

    Should fathers rush to a meeting with Eastern Womens Refuge. To be honest I have my doubts as EWR is affiliated to the National Collective and therefore has agreed to the view that domestic violenece is a male only problem. Thats the refuge paradigm : domestic violence is about power and control with men being the perpretrators and women and children the victim.

    Regards

    Scrap

  51. Darryl Ward says:

    Allan is a tireless worker for the cause in New Zealand who really gets things done for those in need, and I have met few who put their shoulders to the grindstone like Allan does.

    If Allan does not have the highest profile in the movement, then this is in common with those who seem to achieve the most, as they are more interested in results than attention.

    Kind regards

    Darryl

  52. Allan says:

    Hi Jim,
    I will take your challenge and suggest there are 102 Politicians in the house that are on the side of children. There are about 70 with y chromosones and 60 plus are fathers themselves. I do think there is one politician (xx) who I would say is “on the fathers side”. Unfortunately even though she is number 2 on a list her chances of getting back in are probably only slightly more than 50%. I’m not telling people to throw their votes down the crapper but I’m considering it myself.
    With almost unanimous support for children’s issues that is a good tactic to take when focusing questions to the pollies while they are in a “only too pleased to listen mood” for the next seven weeks.
    Allan

  53. Jim Bailey says:

    I see Allan-H continues to berate ME instead of his Labour mates for making me and 1000’s of other DADs powerLess Go http://rationshed2.blogspot.com for the truth

    For those of you who are listening to his arrogant promotion of self be aware that there are a good many Men and Women posting here that are doing their best to help many thru the system

    Let olone the questionable manner which Allan-H Fathers his Kids and quotes scripture

    Onward – Jim

  54. julie says:

    Scrap, Waitakere is quite advanced on men’s rights including health. I have spoken up at meetings and asked the same question.

    All our politicians up here are supportive. It may be better to talk to the prostate cancer society to get all the names. Or man alive or big buddy.

    The thing is: we have been putting these organisations down while they have been lobbying.

  55. JohnP says:

    Since Jim Bailey persists in filling this site with off-topic garbage and personal abuse, he won’t be commenting here any more.

  56. Scrap_The_CSA says:

    Sorry Julie,

    Dont buy into your analysis.

    Regards

    Scrap

  57. julie says:

    Scrap, don’t you know how high I put you for the work you have done on CS and don’t you know how high for your knowledge of politics?

    I have not only learnt from you but am just a simple person in the community working within the bounds of community work.

    I understand you are part of the Republic Party and I don’t want to fight you.

    I will be more aware of what I post so that the 2 don’t collide. I already have a difference of opinion with Peter Dunne because I am not affected by the CS Act.

    YOU
    have to do what you are doing
    . I just have to find a way to support you with CS while supporting fathers under my umbrella and fatherless boys.

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