MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

What to do when your relationship is over (separate, breakup, split up, divorce), and want to sort out ‘Parenting’.

Filed under: General,Law & Courts — Julie @ 3:22 pm Tue 20th May 2014

The internet is a wonderful tool to share information and menz is a popular site for New Zealand fathers looking for information regarding:

  • separation and divorce
  • parenting plans that become parenting orders
  • Shared parenting
  • Equal parenting
  • Full Custody aka day-to-day care of children
  • domestic violence
  • child support
  • and more

One such father didn’t seem to find what he was looking for which prompted me to revisit menz today to see what I could find with the question he asked in mind which was, “What do I do now [that I am separated]?”.


Yesterday, when the question came up in a group setting, I thought and said to a parent’s advocate, “Perhaps we should make a list that we can give to dads” and today made arrangements with another parents’s advocate and a lawyer separately to collect information….. BUT THEN

OMG, I-M-P-R-E-S-S-I-V-E. I’ve ended up contacting both advocates and saying, “We just need to give out links, one in particular being [the/a] DIVORCE FIRST AID KIT FOR MEN. What a fabulous description ‘First Aid Kit’, what a fabulous idea. I want to make something similar for single parents and now have something to use as a foundation. 🙂

The Divorce Kit has many pages of information provided ‘free of charge’ from years of advocacy experience and effort. The beauty of having written information is that it’s all there, nothing is accidentally forgotten that can happen through word of mouth while the beauty of having it online means you simply give a link and fathers can look pages over in their own home at the own time.


Unfortunately information can be ‘out of date’ when changes arise and right now there are changes to the Family Court process. I don’t know much about the changes. So far, I know:

  1. There’s no more ‘free’ counselling sessions
  2. These have been replaced with ‘mediation’
  3. Mediation costs parents or tax payers $800+

I’ve heard churches have mediation contracts which means so do culture groups. This gives me the impression of society going back in time to when church and tribal elders would hear relationship problems but this time they get paid either by parents or tax payers when the parents have financial hardship. **To keep it modern, participants can invite their lawyers.**


There’s also discussion under the heading ‘Law & Courts‘ where fathers can find information and advice about Family Court processes and the people involved (lawyers, etc) AND in the top right-hand corner is a search box that I used to find the ‘Divorce First Aid Kit for Men‘.

NOTE: I don’t personally agree with all the information provided in the divorce kit and prefer to take family separation case by case. However, there are things I agree with. and wish families all the best.


  1. Hey Thanks will use this somewhere else , its seems like a great lot of good information and some cold hard facts , where basically if your a guy your stuffed for custody in most cases.

    IMO, I think that your kids are worth fighting for, and its wrong on all levels to abandon them but be smart about it using these hard hitting facts, just seems at what price you are prepared to pay, physically and mentally.

    Comment by Dominic da Silva — Tue 20th May 2014 @ 3:53 pm

  2. The fact that this biased mutant system has been going on for that long and getting worse is sickening to read.

    Comment by Dominic da Silva — Tue 20th May 2014 @ 4:15 pm

  3. Read my mind Julie and dominic. Much thanks for your work for our children’s rights to both parents as long as one isn’t psychotic and vindictive and manipulative. You know who I’m talking about!

    Comment by Phil Watts — Tue 20th May 2014 @ 4:45 pm

  4. Most guys need to start by talking to someone they trust…
    once the situation is understood by someone who has broad experience…
    the strategy, the urgency of anything and the approx. expected timeframe is clearer…

    Ongoing they may need regular chats to keep up with things…
    help to focus on the relationship with the kids mainly,
    but also help dealing with the grief, anger or guilt,
    that usually accompanies a marriage type breakup…

    sometimes a group can help guys to get peer support,
    the only one left seems to be father and child in Onehunga…

    Comment by realkiwi — Wed 21st May 2014 @ 12:06 am

  5. thing is it needs be promoted, women have all on tv provided by government, men have none so lost and don’t know where to go.

    Comment by Aaron Bell — Wed 21st May 2014 @ 8:18 am

  6. Does anyone know the name of a particularly rabid family court barrister experienced in relocation cases? We need one! Partners ex has stated her “intention” to move to Auckland with his children.

    Comment by Mumanddadofsix — Wed 21st May 2014 @ 6:30 pm

  7. So where in Nz are you based. Relocation cases are not hard to stop.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Wed 21st May 2014 @ 7:10 pm

  8. Thanks for the comments. I would like to add two points to them.

    1. RELOCATION – the other parent moving with your children

    Time and time again, one parent wants to relocate. It’s simply life and ex partners moving on, IMO. It doesn’t matter how ‘nice’ someone is, they are not going to put their ex’s well being ahead of their own in 1, 2, 5, 10 or more years time.

    Lawyers/Barristers are often NOT discussing relocation issues with clients. They don’t, like in most professions, see what happens to clients once they’ve finished working with them and perhaps (a) don’t realise how often relocation problems are happening or the severity, or (b) they’re actually against their own client, which happens, or (c ) other.

    I don’t personally like non removal orders because often non removal means wiping out extended family while on the other hand, when children are moved, they wipe out the extended family here in NZ or in a city or town. Sometimes, and this shouldn’t be happening, prisoners are filing non removal orders forcing the person/people they’ve abused (reason why they are in prison) to stay where they can get to them and they do harm them.

    BUT, even if I don’t like these orders, I know how important they are.

    Parents really should apply for non removal orders as a preventative measure. If you don’t, you are in for an expensive, painful, and drawn out process and there’s a chance you might not even bring the children back. Websites are dedicated to assisting parents whose children have been abducted while other websites are dedicated to helping people relocate. Popular suggestions include drawing out the case so by the time a judge puts his/her foot down, the child has settled and it’s not in their best interest to move them back.

    I can’t express enough the pain you will endure if you don’t file an application. It’s a very simple thing to do, ……..oh, and don’t forget the border alert – Read the information on this link.

    Once you understand what you are doing, make the application with or without a lawyer. The application is on this link and under the heading ‘Standard track Forms’ and under the Sub Heading ‘Prevent removal of child(ren) from New Zealand’. (see below link). NOTE: Add your city and town so you can discuss moves before they happen, not afterwards when you have no power.

    You will need to write an affidavit to accompany your application. For this you have choices. You can pay a lawyer to write one for you, or you can do it yourself with the help of father’s advocates. (Form is here)

    You will find a father’s advocates on menz and your local CAB. All the best.

    Comment by Julie — Thu 22nd May 2014 @ 7:39 pm

  9. I think there might be two or more mistakes in the document you refer to:

    There are rules about using lawyers for non-urgent applications.

    I think they mean, there are rules about using a lawyer for an urgent application. Of course, you don’t have to follow the rules anyway (according to some other rules), so get get worked up about it.

    It’s a criminal offence to take, or try to take, a child out of New Zealand if:
    “¢ it breaks any condition of a current Parenting Order
    “¢ an application for an Order, or a case involving the child is about to go to Court.

    Funny how it happens quite often, but there are so few prosecutions? And although not many men do it, they are the ones most likely to be prosecuted. I have had several people patiently explain it to me and I know less now, than when I started….. Toddler Taming suggests that for discipline to be effective, it should be:

    most likely to happen,
    happen quickly after the abduction
    be severe enough to be an effective deterrent.

    The way the familycaught$ operates, it carefully breaks every single one of the points made by Toddler Taming. In my opinion, there is more wisdom in Toddler Taming, by Dr. Christopher Green for $20, than there is in the behaviour of the familycaught$, for 35 years x $145 million per year.

    There is a thief in the house!

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 23rd May 2014 @ 12:28 am

  10. 2. The second point I want to make is around being nice and getting walked over for it.

    Note: I wish I had the perfect speech on this point because it’s very important, IMO. The next best thing is for men to help me out (hint, hint).

    …………… Here goes…

    We all have theories (opinions) about the action ‘being nice’ and the rewards and consequences that come from it, IMO. Many separated persons have a story to tell about acting ‘nice’ and where it got them. They seem to remember the negative consequences better than the positive ones which I’ve learned is normal.

    My theory is that being nice pays off. I think the action is a [paid] service. If someone does something nice for me, I want to do something nice for them. It’s tricky though, because as a pay-back service, some people are expecting a payment I don’t want to give while on the other hand, I often ‘be’ nice for it makes me feel good and I don’t expect anything back from the receiver since I’m already getting payment (feeling good). I’ve come to realise a lot of my friends think like me and they are sceptical of someone ‘being nice’ so we only get to the part of accepting niceness (the service) after we’ve known each other for a while and trust each other.

    ‘Being nice’ is simply ‘people pleasing’, IMO. I invest in pleasantries in the hope you are pleasant back to me. I smile, you smile back, kind of thing. I invest in being nice to you, in the hope you treat me nicely. This, to me is what we do in relationships, that is, invest in pleasing and being pleased.
    Note: It’s in religious teachings, it’s the golden rule. “Treat others how you want them to treat you”.


    When you separate, your relationship with the other parent changes in that the need for ‘people pleasing’ changes. They will be nice to you when they want you to please them and you will be nice to them when you want to be pleased. You are using each other – you are manipulating each other – you are using ‘being nice’ to get what you want.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out this is dangerous for when you need to be nice to get something, you are (a) open for abuse, and (b) once they don’t need you to please them, they’ll kick you to the kerb. You, being normal, will be even nicer and they’ll get nastier because the balance of power shifts. It’s like you have to have 100% and when you go lower than 50%, they go higher than 50% and the lower you go, the higher they go.


    The ideal scenario is 50/50 power and I think it’s extremely important to keep it as near as 50% as possible. To do this, IMO, you sometimes need to take power. You need to do the opposite of people pleasing and make things unpleasant so they action nice for their own pleasing.

    Because each case is different in that unpleasantness comes in different forms, it’s best to discuss your unique situation (family dynamics) and get feedback from others who have experienced what you are going through or have advice or ideas. You can do this online (on menz or other)under an alias name, amongst family, friends, etc, or a men’s offline support group.


    I get that some/many men think it’s dangerous for a man to take power from a woman because she only need to report an emotion (fear) to police and its ‘Bye, bye daddy from children’s lives’. I don’t know what to say except ‘don’t give up’, ‘stand your ground’. There’s a lot of corruption in the Family Court in NZ while there’s some good people making changes.

    Comment by Julie — Fri 23rd May 2014 @ 1:48 am

  11. Thanks for your assistance Murray.

    I like the border control application. That would save a lot of head and heart ache not to mention $$$.

    Comment by Julie — Fri 23rd May 2014 @ 2:12 am

  12. Dear Julie,

    familycaught$ encourages fathers to tru$t mothers, then it teaches mothers to break “rules” and be untrustworthy. This encourages legal fight$, it $ure doesn’t $erve children, mother$ or father$.

    Just look up NZ Herald article$ on Kay Skelton………

    So, who is being $erved by ongoing di$hone$ty, manipulation and lie$?

    Legal worker$ are the only beneficiarie$ of these di$hone$t game$………

    I re$t my ca$e, Mu’Lord,

    Plea$e give me a phone call, so we can reestablish contact$…….

    MurrayBacon – axe murderer, social mi$fit and malcontent.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Fri 23rd May 2014 @ 2:32 pm

  13. Murray,

    familycaught$ encourages fathers to tru$t mothers, then it teaches mothers to break ‘rules’ and be untrustworthy. This encourages legal fight$, it $ure doesn’t $erve children, mother$ or father$.
    Just look up NZ Herald article$ on Kay Skelton”¦”¦”¦

    All I can do is say, “Thanks for sharing this information”.

    With respect,

    I think we all deal with different cases and that others in society deal with different cases. It is for this reason that men’s interest group and individuals are not being heard from women’s interest groups and individuals and vice versa, IMO.

    We are ‘worlds’ within cities and towns, IMO.

    Comment by Julie — Fri 23rd May 2014 @ 9:19 pm

  14. Dear Julie, I apologise if it sounds as though I am attacking mothers who deny access, through unresolved anger and jealousy.

    Primarily, I am trying to attack familycaught$, for failing to discipline custodial parents (mainly mothers and a good number of fathers too), when they take out their destructive feelings on their children’s relationships.

    The majority of separated parents have satisfactory mental health and are able to work through their frustrations, to find satisfactory new forms of relationship with the other parent of their children. A large minority unfortunately fail to sort out these issues and if familycaught$ fail to act of their mosbehaviours, then the children will suffer.

    Where the familycaught$ could use the levers that it has been given in the Care of Children Act 2004, it refuses so that arguments can get worse, rather than be worked through. The familycaught% legal workers can then take advantage of these disputes, for their personal financial gain, at the social and financial cost of the family.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 25th May 2014 @ 10:30 am

  15. *Murray @ #14,
    You say “Dear Julie, I apologise if it sounds as though I am attacking mothers who deny access, through unresolved anger and jealousy.

    Primarily, I am trying to attack familycaught$, for failing to discipline custodial parents (mainly mothers and a good number of fathers too), when they take out their destructive feelings on their children’s relationships”.

    I see no reason for you to apologize here as I have a different view.
    I think mothers who deny access are definitely responsible for their actions.
    As you point out the family courts are supposed to discipline them for it.
    As we’re aware these courts seldom do that. In a country as small as NZ word of this amongst women soon gets round and further incentivizes them to become alienating moms to cut kids off from their fathers during the process of divorce.
    I think you’ve got things back to front here, and this is where we differ.
    Let’s be clear and put the cart before the horse, not the other way round thereby giving women a convenient pussy pass.
    If so many divorcing moms weren’t behaving so badly in the first place, then the family court wouldn’t have to intervene.
    Therefore the one’s I think you should primarily be challenging are the moms rather than the courts (for all their failings).

    Comment by Stephen Gee — Sun 25th May 2014 @ 4:54 pm

  16. Dear Stephen, by “primarily” I am indicating about a quid each way.

    Certainly, in terms of competence, I think that it is fair to expect more competence on such an issue from a familycaught$ judge, than from a custodial parent, in the year or two after separation. Parliament has appointed them to protect children, when necessary from their own parents.

    From the point of view of parenting skills and competence, any parent who lies to their own child, imputes evil motives to the other parent and believes that they are all their own child needs, is obviously incompetent as a parent. I am sure that this is easy for a judge to see, but they seem to put their own paramount financial interests far before those of the children?

    If the largest single social problem facing NZ is children not having a working relationship with their own fathers, as far as I can see the largest single cause of this problem, is familycaught$ failing to honour legislation protecting that right.

    If familycaught$ costs $145 million a year to run, it costs us at least 50x that in the long term social damage, jails, hospital for victims of crime, suicides, poor employment performance…. Just ignorant relationship vandals.

    Good discipline should solve most problems before they arise, not just aim to milk them.

    Hence – There is a thief in the house!

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sun 25th May 2014 @ 5:51 pm

  17. Sorry I haven’t checked here for a while – we’re in Wellington. My partner has the children 5/14 nights and half the holidays. His ex has been shagging a married man in Auckland and he’s now left his wife and kids (further perpetuating the grief that is broken families) and now wants to move to Auckland. She’s also having chemo for aggressive, treatment resistant breast cancer. The whole thing is a nightmare! Any advice as to the name of a good lawyer would be appreciated. And big ups to all you dads who keep fighting to be involved in your kids lives – I have nothing but respect.

    Comment by Mumanddadofsix — Wed 28th May 2014 @ 6:37 pm

  18. @mum and dad of six

    Yes I know a good family lawyer that worked his ass off for me, he’s not that expensive and will tell you exactly how it is with out the normal see how long they can string it out for (unlike my useless ex ones) , his name is Nicholas echatone based in Auckland , sweet man law 094756410

    Hope all goes well.

    Comment by Dominic da Silva — Thu 5th June 2014 @ 11:11 am

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