Dear IRD , you win, we lose, goodbye.
this will be on a number of peoples headstones from now on.
- promoting a clearer understanding of men's experience -
Dear IRD , you win, we lose, goodbye.
this will be on a number of peoples headstones from now on.
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I’ve just been reassessed. 3rd time in the last 4 months. I’m now advocating we commence actively fighting this. I care not that they monitor this system of communicating.
We need to start driving home the impact of what they are doing. This is immoral. I’m willing to make an example and ruin my life for the sake of all the other young men that are going to be destroyed by this. I’m willing to do this for the country I love. This is wrong.
Please post suggestions.
I’m serious here. I hear the convos at work. EVERYONE KNOWS this is wrong but no one is willing to stand up and fight for us. Not a single politician is fighting for our rights. There are 200,000 of us.
If just one does something extremely it WILL force change.
I’m tired of this bitter pill. The powerlessness of it. The fact no politician’s are fighting our cause. We are being shat and society doesn’t give a shit. The only way to change that is something very visible. And that means an extremist response.
I will end my life in public in front of an IRD building unless someone comes up with a more visible/impacting idea. Whatever it takes to stop this happening to over New Zealand males.
The system is rigged against men, in the courts and with IRD. It’s cruel, heartless and oppressive. We should be advertising on all media formats (e.g. the herald) telling young men to not have kids. The odds it will go wrong are too high and then the punishment will drive you into the ground with no way of removing the boot from your neck.
I want to stop this system
It’s been done, an extreme act like that has been done, and it didn’t make any difference. I know what I’d do but I’m not going to suggest it as that would implicate myself.
You should put on your thinking cap, if you end your life what happens to your kids? The best revenge is to live well. You have many otions and maybe you need someone to tell you some of the ones you may not be thinking of.
What is your situation? Where do you work? Do you get access to your children etc?
No access and it’s not possible. The child has been poisoned. Have had no contact since 3 years old and is 14 now. They used the child s a weapon and I had to cancel my hard won access. The delays, female favouring family court system and then their making those first access times impossible. They would take photos and record the very tearful handover and then i would have 4 hours of hysteria where I and my parents would try to calm the child. They would work the child up intentionally prior to handover. I had to stop it for the childs safety. A bitter bitter powerlessness.
IRD doesn’t give a shit about that. They represent the victor. Morality isn’t considered in their process as they deem the courts to be the arbiter of truth. This is wrong.
I earn quite good money due to my extreme effort to improve my lot. But it all goes to them. 12% student loan + child support means I can’t save, can’t pay off debt. can’t afford decent lawyers and can’t fight their millioaire stalling techniques in the courts. then i have to pay off the debt i accumulated whilst trying to keep my ex wife happy. Eventually that failed too as the money prop ups ran out. So I’m just living to pay everyone. This is wrong.
My options are leave NZ, quit everything and become a bum, take revenge and go to court, make a public statement of my pain.
Yes I have only 4 years left. But I have moral obligation to stop others being harmed like this. It’s not just about myself. Just in my work there are literally dozens of men in this situation. It’s hypocritical of me to expect others to do this on my behalf. We all get told the line you just said. Think of your kids.
If society doesn’t change this it’s going to be bad for NZ. What will the men coming out of this be like? The mental issues caused are substantial. The impact on future generations of children is going to be significant. This heartless treatment of males is going to destroy many of those aspects that make NZ good.
Who’s responsibility is it to force change? The politicians don’t want to touch this and we don’t collectivise well at all due to that very same comment you said above. Think of your kids. To fight this would mean the man’s kids suffer as his earning ability is decreased and his career and other relationships are ruined etc.
I mean nothing to my child and the child has a multimillionaire family so will never need what I provide. I have lost but am never able to heal.
But I’m able to NOT be a hypocrite and make myself an example. I could give meaning to my life and my struggle and serve a greater purpose. If enough of us end our lives in front of them. Surely the fucks will see this is wrong?
And we can’t kill/harm them/destroy their property because then they label that person as the wrong doer. The only option is to end ones own suffering for the greater good.
Regarding it being done before. Are their any links to this? I want to investigate the how.
how does 50% of a child’s upbringing cost 1100 a month? I borrowed 150 a week from IRD for living costs (from which child support was deducted) when I was a student and I lived on that well enough. I had all my basic needs met.
remember I’m 50% of the equation. Raising the child is a privilege not a chore
so there was a article a while back, the story goes a NZ man in Aussie killed himself over recieving a letter form IRD stating he owed thousands even though his child had turned 18, after his death his son also killed himself believeing it was his fault.
The article was on this site some time ago.
Also there was a guy in the states that torched himself on steps a parliment building, i’d have to google search it myself.
I think when your child is over 16-18 he/she may want a real explination from thier dad. And you may have a great relationship with them then.
Death is too final.
What Happens When People Feel Deprived In A System They Believe To Be Just?
In my opinion, I will tolerate a degree of incompetence, fraud or malpractice from a servant who is accountable, in some real form.
However, when that [civil] servant is hiding behind some image of accountability, that they have in fact set up or they themselves control [in other words, the accountability isn’t to some independent authority], then in fact it isn’t real accountability!
I would go one step further, if the servant is falsely presenting themselves as being accountable, but the accountability is a sham, then I suggest that the servant is outside the protection of the law. (This is in the same way that the customer was outside the protection of the law, because the servant was refusing to honour the accountability requirement.
One such example of problematic accountability is the Police Independent Complaints Authority. Certainly, this authority is a little more independent from the police administration, than the old arrangements, where investigations into police’s actions was managed and controlled directly by police management. However, the new arrangement still has independence problems, so the new authority is named independent, to remind people to beware it’s dependence on the police administration. This hazard is especially great for police who may have fallen out of favour with the police administration, who may expect even more problems, than a hapless member of the public.
Further down the slimy, greasy pole, is the accountability of “judges”. They get to manage the accountability authority within their own incestuous social circle.
Take their integrity as seriously as their accountability system. Better examples exist in many USA states and the Federal Government, at odd times anyway.
That is hugely distressing. My only suggestion is to tough it out for 4 more years, protect yourself emotionally as much as possible, and keep the door open for your child where possible. Maybe send emails regularly, though **not **with negativity and rants. Add photos where relevant, such as your childhood home and your parents. Just brief and positive updates and enquiries, maybe some wider family history and memories of your own childhood. Print out all the emails and keep them in a folder. One day your child may ask questions. Such a record will show you did not give up on your child but did your best to do the right thing.
Harming yourself will not be portrayed to the child as positive so may have the opposite effect you intend.
End of the day you cannot manage other people’s responses, only your own. But you do have power to do that.
Dear Becoming extremist, I have read your comments with horror. Not that I don’t believe them, on the contrary, I know that experiences as you describe are all too common in NZ, almost hundreds of thousands of children are illegally in such parental situations.
This is against a background, where many commentators have decried the unavailability to children of their own fathers. (I have been in a similar, if a little less dramatic situation.)
I have been perplexed to read of familycaught$ judges making similar exhortations for fathers to do more for their children!!!??? Laughing all the way to the bank.
Exactchange gives careful advice about how to make the best of such a cruelly damaged situation and I largely recommend to follow such advice, for your own sanity, as much as to give the best hopes for your children.
Notwithstanding that, I am also a clear believer in accountability that works. For many everyday situations in NZ, it is up to consumers to apply accountability. To protect children satisfactorily, this should be applied vigorously and without much time delay, or the number of unnecessarily damaged children (and parents), quickly runs into hundreds of thousands.
From a practical perspective, private application of accountability will result in many mistakes being made. This is an essential outcome of using unqualified members of the public to act as jury and so called executioner. (Execution is too fast, to be the best punishment.)
In fact, over time, judges and their partners (in crime) might actually come to prefer having a working formal accountability system, that works as intended and within professional time frames. In the end, this will save many judge’s lives, once they realise what they have put themselves into, in the present sham accountability that they run as a marketing misinformation tool.
Such parent’s pain as you describe so well, is not a productive part of delivering child development services (parenting). If I may help you through that unnecessary and wrongful pain, please contact me personally.
MurrayBacon – merciless axe-murderer and Squadron Leader, Men’s Centre Suicide Bombers Squadrons.
So how many axes have you actually murdered Murray?
So now with this problem (Child Support) being much more publically noticed and effecting women do you think it is time for a referendum? We only need 25% of the regisered voters or something like that. It was in a NZ herald artilce about Winston Peters and that northland election. But what would we put in the referendum, what would the question be?
My two cents says: Should the child support system be scrpped and parents forced to handle thier own social situation? (Hell Yes!!!)
Dear Too tired, I suggest that child [and spousal] support cannot be fixed alone. It is necessary to repair the way that parenting relationships are managed in familycaught$.
While entrenched groups (such as legal workers and psychologists) profit without delivering quality service, then the system has no incentive to work well or improve. On the contrary, at present the public pays them to go slow and slower and pays more for a worse job, than for a job well done. Dumb and dumber? So, who is the fool?
Judith Collins meddled with inconsequential details, but failed to address the quality controls, the values problems and the incentives to work well.
So, as far as I can see, user pays with minimum acceptable quality standards is the only way of alligning the incentives of the familycaught$ legal workers, with the values of the parties who should be served.
Pay well for a job well done and let the incompetents starve their way out of being familycaught$ judges, just as in any industry that functions well.
Debt is not worthwhile loosing a life over. I have supported a friend who after separation has had access problems. Followed his kids around the country to be able to see them and put his career on hold. His ex made him suffer. As soon as his kids turned 16 they left home and moved in with their dad.
Debt is an instrument to make a civil society function.
Those little pieces of shit at IRD who use it as a means to persecute men need a bullet in the head.
I appreciate all the comments thank you.
The strongest point made against my stance is the one regarding making oneself the judge and using a working formal accountability system.
Unfortunately the current “working formal accountability system” isn’t working. It’s not working and no amount of playing by their rules is going to change it.
The system relies on us to “think of your kids” and “think positive” , “one day it will end”. But it’s a selfish viewpoint personally. It doesn’t think of the thousands of men that will follow us and have the same things happen.
The problem is also that the oppression and powerlessness continues on a day to day, minute by minute basis. The problem isn’t in the past. If it were then such an approach would be valid.
Eg. If a criminal was robbing your house would you go to the lawyer to ask them to politely stop robbing you?
Answer: No you would physically do what you can to stop he/she from robbing you.
Daily we are being robbed and we are letting it happen.
So given the structure of the system, there is NO way for us to stop this and those committees/boards/feminist groups that dictate this legislation know it. They’ve got an army of neo-feminist social scientists looking for evidence left right and centre to promote their beliefs to restructure society on their terms.
Also, as we don’t collectivise well, and because we have so many vested interests in society, we won’t rebel en masse like they did in the american revolution.. e.g. how the Tea Party kicked off their revolution.. Which coincidentally was over unfair taxes much less than the burden on us).
So who is going to stand up to them? Who is going to fight when the system makes it impossible? We don’t have extremist religious blind faith so no one is going to turn suicide bomber over this (yet).
Will a large group riot over this? No. Like i said.. Too many vested interests. We have to “think of our kids”.
I realised the other day that I hoped someone would snap in a very public way and thus bring attention to the immoral and unjust oppression being perpetrated against males in NZ.
I quickly realised that thought is selfish of me. If I want change I have to make it happen myself. I can’t rely on others who are chained. I asked myself how? How to make it change? I’ve drawn blanks in the idea department.
The Law has failed us and continues to do so. So that methods is a waste of time and will just bleed you more. You will begin to hate if you keep on that path.
I considered options like hunger strikes, chaining self to buildings and other non violent methods. These would only work if large numbers joined in and won’t happen without a martyr to unite people. We have no figure head. No example to draw upon.
I considered joining NZ male protest groups such as the ones on this site. None are effective in any way as can be seen by this continued oppression. This has been going on for a long time now and everyone I know knows that this is wrong. Not a single person says different. But nothing has changed because of the above.
What is needed is something Extreme and impacting that will get the biased NZ media industry to HAVE to report on it in a very thorough way. Not the current tokenistic fashion. E.g. Gender pay equality gets soooo much more airtime than this. The plight of unwanted kittens gets more airtime than this.
I know that doing this will be the end of me. I will cease to exist, there will be no Rest in Peace upon death. It will just be off for me.. I also know that the media and those of bias will dissect my life and look for reasons other than the flawed system to blame for this outcome. But some wont. Some will look objectively. Hopefully their reporting will be enough to spark a mass protest and force change. If not. My sacrifice will add impact to any others that will follow using whatever way is available to them to protest.
Also @ Prouddad. It’s not just about Debt. It’s about making a sacrifice to stop the evil that is occurring to others. Our grandfathers sacrificed their lives to fight oppression. This is no different to that. So yes in my individual instance, I will harm my child if I do this. But so did the men that went off to war. They made that choice too for the greater good, and quite frankly I’m grateful to them.
It’s time to stop being selfish.
So here is where I need help.
I need to state the Why as objectively as possible before any drastic events occur (if any). I need the Just Cause to be clear and succinct so that the Average Joe can understand.
This act would need to be NOT about myself, but for all NZ males and future generations of NZ males. IDEALLY I would like to be able to point the media to a solution that will make NZ better and stop all this. Eg. set a maximum amount (that is realistic) of say 125-150 per week for one child as that male’s 50% of the child raising cost….
I also have no way of clarifying the family court problems as the problem seems so vast and systemic that I doubt anyone can fix it. All I know is that I got fucked over royally by the system and the complicit lawyers that enabled it.
and yes they are complicit. I’ve heard so many stories where they’ve knowingly destroyed males lives, just so they can milk the process and generate as many chargeable hours + secure future clients through being VERY successful at manipulating the system in their clients favour.
We know these lawyers are out there. Free from all culpability, protected by the law.
Anyways. At this point clearly I’m writing from a fantasy perspective as none this has yet to happen. I’m actually engaged in trying to get DNA testing done as recent evidence has surfaced. They are delaying and refusing to get the DNA test done. But I will keep throwing credit at the lawyer until I have no credit left. It’s already cost 4500 and it’s not even close to court.
All this will depend on the outcome of that.
Even so. I still feel it’s important to post this train of thought as I’m sure I’m not the only one. And reading others saying what they are thinking will help them not to feel so alone.
So I hit the submit button.
There is a sea change definitely gathering in public opinion. A couple of years ago, if any reader’s comment on a feminist or male-bashing article challenged the feminist propaganda we probably recognized the person who wrote the comment. Now, such articles tend to attract numerous better-informed responses that challenge feminist propaganda. The time has never been better to participate in political action, write letters to editors, phone talk-back radio shows, write to Radio NZ and the television stations, write to members of parliament. Stunts and self-chaining in relevant places is worth trying. The media who have ignored men’s issues for so long must soon recognize that the public is moving on. Unfortunately, law changes take a lot longer and we are likely still to see some vicious feminist backlash and male-bashing laws yet.
Suicide is unlikely to achieve much. No matter how the person tries to set it up to attract publicity etc it’s most likely to be largely ignored by media. The person is likely to be portrayed as a nutter and any intended message sidelined. The dead person will soon be forgotten, the world moving on, and the time and energy that person could have put into influencing real change will be absent. I strongly encourage the energy to be directed towards political activities. For example, the Ministry of Men’s Affairs has organized protests outside parliament and in other centres against family law and its Courts, but often only a few or even nobody else turned up. There is so much that can be done to continue to make worthwhile influence and it’s time to take advantage of the opportunities to do so.
To Murray Bacon,
I thankyou for your comments but it was an example of how nothing will change with out plight. I offer a solution/suggestion and you say nah there is other issues at hand. Fine but what about my suggestion? I don’t have any issues with the family court and I was discussing Child Support only.
There has to be a way to remove this blight from our society, and then maybe a better focus on family courts could happen or the reverse fix the courts then CS but they don’t have to be linked.
Also, Becomming Extremeist,
Can’t you just quit work and pay the minimum? You have no contact, so just got sit on the beach or infront of the IRD buildings protesting every day, people will come and sit with you when they can. Pay for a bill board, or leaflit drop, you seem to be shelling out thousands for nothing, buy a voice out there and become that figure head you think is required.
Considered that too. I’m not one of those charismatic leader types unfortunately.
Also considered just quitting and handing out leaflets etc. You know the types out there that do this. They get nowhere. Men that complain about this just look like another group of society’s failures with a gripe. You get nowhere and probably make it worse not better due to their perception of you. Being the bum with no hope. This is what they want you to do. They’ve won when you’ve become this guy.
You have to be powerful for any of them to listen to you. You have to have influence.
Regarding the billboard. Yes that is one of the options I’m considering as part of all this. Also adverts in the herald etc.
The thing is, none of our protests will have any impact without that extreme act. It won’t sink in. It has to be public, visible and shocking. It has to scream pain and thousands have to see it. No one gives a shit because they all have their own day to day difficulties. You have to snap them out of that, if only for a couple of seconds. I’m talking a tiny moment of emotional buy in.
Society doesn’t give a fuck about you.
“It’s your fault for having a kid. It’s not my fault the system is rigged and nor is it my fault you had a child. Bad luck for you. Should have worn a condom. Now back to my own issues/concerns/needs/desires”.
That is what the average joe thinks when they hear of your struggle.
Playing by their rules.. To get any change in NZ your issue needs to be taken up by one of the major political parties. The problem with our issue is that for any one of them to take this up. They will have to risk losing a large number of their supporters (i.e. females). I honestly don’t see that happening.
So it’s their rules, their playing field, their ball. You can’t win.
Have you noticed that no prominent male figures have jumped on this for their own reasons despite the huge numbers of impacted men (selfish/altruistic/whatever motivates)? It’s just too tricky and the risk of smearing your reputation/ruining their careers for “not thinking of the children” is too great.
The way it’s going. With no extreme action. We will never stop the oppression. At best they will soften the blow a little. But most of what is wrong will continue. It will continue and become ingrained in society.
It’s the consequences of that last comment that concern me most. Whats this going to do? We are opening the door to much more extreme variable outcomes with such injustice.
As the people alive today we do have to think of the future generations.
You are all very anti this I get it. But is it not possible that the reason you all are is because you are all unable/unwilling to (for whatever reason) do the same. Your thoughts are checked by a multitude of “wise” thoughts.
You know that what I’ve said here is correct. You know the system isn’t going to change.
That seachange mentioned.. That needs to turn into a flood before what is right happens. How to make it a flood? Extreme and public action. This isn’t a new idea. It’s cliche for a reason. It’s tried and proven. It may not work when the first guy does it. But when the second or third happens. People don’t like to see that. It’s traumatic. They will be compelled to ask the WHY?
replying to Ministry of Men’s Affairs,
“The person is likely to be portrayed as a nutter and any intended message sidelined.”
Yes, undoubtedly they will point to my mental health. I don’t deny my flaws here. Anyone willing to do such must have mental health issues. So that is expected. Hence why I need the solid WHY that steps beyond my own pathetic story.
Without that solid why answer, that is undeniable in its truth, then any intended message will be sidelined.
Regarding the tiny protests etc. While the public don’t give a shit (no emotional buy in) these are pointless and serve only to make the marginalised person feel better for short period of time. No change results.
If it worked then this wouldn’t be the situation we find ourselves in. Society is set up this way for many valid reasons (e.g. small groups protesting).
Also have you listened to all your language? It’s all playing by their rules and accepting of their time-frames. “Unfortunately law changes take a long time and…. ”
Why should that be the case if logic says that something is patently wrong and needs to stop NOW. Why do we have to accept their rules? Do we have to really? Do we not have sovereignty over our own person?
The answer is No. We don’t have to accept it.
Everyone I speak to knows this is wrong. But they’ve all bought into this idea that institutions like the IRD and family courts are these giant immovable beasts where any change takes decades and at great expense with much discussion and boards/studies/committees.
I’m calling bullshit on it. It’s just the way these institutions perpetuate themselves and maintain their positions of authority among other things. It also keeps them in paid employment.
It’s only this way because we accept it. E.g. If we rioted en masse it would stop the next day.
If ALL child support paying parents went on strike it would stop within weeks.
Those rules can change as fast as society wants them to. The fact that they aren’t right now is because society overall doesn’t want change. To make them want change you have to give them a reason and emotional buy in.
guys.. hammer the Minister as well as the PM’s office. they hate replying but by legislation they are required to respond. the more work you create for them the more chances they will get fedup and take action.
going directly to IRD has not been working and will not work. think bigger… think strategically and get your complaints infront of the cabinet.. the parliament has to respond to ministerials by law .. so use it…the stories here need to be tabled in the cabinet… best way to do it is to adress your findings to the PM and the Minister to be treated treat ministerials and get them to do work to not only investigate but to respond to your write ups.. the larger the number of correspondencer to PM and the minister the more pain they will feel to respond to each and everyone.. to avoid this they will have to take action.. and besides it is all in writing infront of them.. they will have to give proper justification as to why they are not addressing the issues if it is raised in this manner… this then becomes legal grounds for action… this is a bit like petition only better… petitions get ignored.. ministerials don’t…
no9t to mention ministerial responses can be made public…
PS.. dont sdo a collective response.. do individual.. more work for them.. more pain for them… best way toi get some traction going
Has anyone tried suing the government?
if hundreds of us did this that would choke the system? Force them to look at it?
Can someone also explain to me how this works. The legislation states:
For the child support year commencing on 1 April 2005, the living allowance allowed under subsection (4) is $2,444 in respect of each dependent child.
So the paying parent is only allowed to deduct $2,444 in respect of each dependent child for living allowance.
BUT Then the paying parent has to give significantly more to receiving parent for their child?
So on one foot the legislation says a child costs 2,444 and then they make me pay 24x 500 (approx 12000) a year?
Also, I’ve searched http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1991/0142/latest/DLM253151.html
and can’t find anywhere stating why it’s the way it is. Only whats been decided.
Where can I find the documents that dictate the formulation of this legislation?
Dear Becoming extremist,
if you would like to meet with me, I can show you the background justification for the child [and spousal] support act. It is a long and convoluted international story, with urgency spread over many years…. and many, many mistakes. A lot of the material is hard to find (because it does not exist!).
More than that, it is a story of human factors in decision making. A story of object lessons of what not to do, but the lessons are yet to be learned.
You will not be satisfied with the quality of what I can show you…..
Don’t take this subject too seriously, as you would do yourself a mischief.
how can I not take this seriously?
It feels like it’s intentionally stacked against us. There shouldn’t even be an us and them.
I’m a born and bred Kiwi that loves his country and despite all this I’m a really good moral citizen.
Why are they doing this to me? What did I do wrong to deserve this?
I’m relatively new to the experience of this. Why haven’t my predecessors fought? Why have none gone nuts and done bad things in desperation?
None of this makes sense. I don’t want to hate anyone. I want to be a happy person. I’ve only got one life, I don’t believe in an after life. For some reason some portion of NZ society has decided to do this and ruin my life.
I believe in equality for all and treat people as such. I don’t know why NZ is punishing me and so many others. What did we do wrong to deserve this?
Sorry Murray. It’s appreciated but I’d rather stay anonymous. Big brother is everywhere.
Mind you the caution is probably pointless. Do these comments get tagged with the sender’s IP address?
we really should all be accessing these forum’s via proxy VPNs.
Dear Becoming extremist,
yes the website logs IP addresses. These are fairly readily, but with some work, traceable to the customer ID.
In theory, a caught order is required to do such a search of an ISP’s records. However, remember that a bank handed over all of Kim DotCom’s financial records, without asking police to supply a caught order. I guess anything is possible, especially where there are personal connections or compromising data is held.
Remember that the worst way to be defeated, is by your own decision – give up without any fight.
Only the paranoids really know what is going on….. Are you paranoid enough?
Some people take tablets to weaken their paranoia. I take tablets to increase mine! Makes my other problems worse though….
I can only give you material that is publicly available, so there is no need to contact me. I could only save you time searching, especially for material that “should” exist, but don’t. Searching also draws attention to yourself, so there might be a beneficial compromise to be made by using other people’s searches?
In the end, not a single one of us has the resources to succeed in any way alone. It will only be by cooperation, that forward progress can be made. Meanwhile, things are sliding slowly in the other direction. Men appear to be surprisingly weak at cooperation. I am still having problems to understand why?
This is why I cowardly hide behind a real name.
MurrayBacon – impulsive axe-murderer.
Dear Becoming extremist,
you ask how can you not take this seriously?
The people who are running IRD cs are “just following legislation”. there is nothing personal about it. They don’t see themselves as having any personal responsibility, if they can construct a argument that their actions are enabled by legislation. The argument doesn’t have to involve learning from mistakes, or professional responsibility. They only have to persuade themselves.
Interesting naive argument. The Nuremberg Trials showed that this argument is untenable under international law, for people on the losing side.
Although IRD’s actions in general have been exposed on many occasions, Parliament has not taken any executive action to change this, nor have voters. I guess that at present, IRD are on the winning side.
It only takes a successful private prosecution, or perhaps the death of someone for whom the public can have sympathy, for the dynamics to swing as quickly as the wind changes. Think of the prosecutions of police for perjury, through the last 5 or 10 years. The officer was invincible, until the powers that be were directly threatened, then he was sacrificed on the public relations altar, as quickly as the wind changes direction.
In UK and probably NZ, men were compulsorily treated for homosexuality. This involved aversion therapy and was given to patients, against their consent. Years later, it was shown that this was unsuccessful and adverse outcomes often included suicide. Nurses who “gave” the treatment had various psychological reactions, about handling the role that they were forced to play. I guess there is quite a bit of similarity with IRD staffing. As history settles down, a more judgemental attitude is being taken about the roles played by these nurses and doctors.
In the end, the American Psychiatric Association cured the many millions of homosexuals of mental disorder, without even meeting them, without billing them for the cure!!!, at midnight, by removing homosexuality from the DSM. So I can’t see why the nurses gave such cruel treatment, when a paper pusher could solve the issue?
Can we create such a change in public mindset? Not individually, not even in a group of a hundred…
Anyway, in the meantime, take care of yourself.
You cannot protect your children, if you are under extreme hazard.
As the air hostess says, put on your oxygen mask, then put oxygen masks onto your children….
I don’t know if it gives any satisfaction (I hope not), but women are sometimes mangled by IRD too.
I forgot to mention that you have already given out your IP address, so you only have to worry about the incremental risk of meeting me. Pick a day when I have taken my regular tablets and ask me not to take paranoia tablets and you might be ok?
comment 26 becoming extremist.. thats the idea.. ministerials are required to be responeded to…. which means Govt has to take some action if it doesn’t want to tie their employees down to responding to individual cases…. i say write to the minister and PM and ask them mto explain why it is that way….. harass the crap out of them as the feminists of old days did to get them to take action on a problem of this magnitude.. rest is up to you….
the high ups don’t like being asked hard questions nor take responsibility ..so in effect it filters down the hierarchy…
note once things are down on paper officially, the govt becomes liable if things go wrong….. fill in the blanks… so guys do ministerials..the responses you get can be released publicly… start setting the stage to take this anarchy down one step at a time.. to do it quickly… use a hammer or in this case ministerials…
Dear Becoming extremist,
the best way to draw attention to yourself, is to write Ministerial complaints. If the issue can be framed in a general way, then you could write it, but get an older friend, with no axes to grind, to send it in in their own name. Cooperation yields better results and safer results, than individual action.
Avoid being a victim of divide and rule.
MurrayBacon – deranged axe murderer.
@ 16 Dear Becoming extremist, Thankyou for posting your thoughts and sharing your situation.
I also pay as much as you in child support, and I well know the taste of the bitter pill you mentioned. I don’t have solutions.I live a lonely life in sadness. I don’t love my country. I did once but don’t anymore. Thankyou for thinking of me. I also push submit.
Apart from ministerial enquiries, there is also the Official Information Act which is very powerful. OIA requests can be for personal information (from the individual only) and also more general. Including fishing expeditions if carefully worded. One way of sending general (not personal) requests is via the site FYI.org.nz where requests and responses are public.
The site is down at the moment but they are working on getting it up again. There are thousands of searchable responses to OIA requests on the site.
if you bow to scare tactics used by these agencies… nothing will improve. Drwa attention to yourself and ask the hard questions… or be afraid and hide under the shell of not drawing attention to yourself. I have already put in a ministerial. why be afraid of a regime that looks to bully and cower you anyway possible
link please Kirann?
So IRD have a motive to maximise amount to pay. They receive any and all penaltie.
Also, although they’ve been deducting arrears from my income. Because I emailed saying I denied them permission to take the amount they are taking for child support they are still charging me 2% per month on the existing penalties.
WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF
Thank you for your email received on the 25th of March 2015 regarding child support penalties.
The custodial parent of a child receives the child support that he or she is assessed to receive, not any penalties.
You currently have child support debt of $8,175.46. This is made up of $5,704.46 of assessment debt, $1,029.00 of 10% penalty debt and $1,513.00 of 2% penalty debt.
If you call us on 0800 221 221 and agree to a plan to pay off your remaining debt we can look at writing off the 2% penalties that are on your account. We already have a plan in place but because you have not agreed to it, the 2% penalties will continue to be added.”
No one see’s the problem with IRD pocketing the penalties?
That gives the IRD added incentive to maximise the amount of child support deducted as due to the challenges of life almost all men paying child support will have difficulty paying for their child at some time.
That is a recipe for corruption and self serving behaviour within IRD.
This is a structural problem that will be directing behaviour.
There must be legislation stating that the IRD can’t operate as a business surely?
Have emailed the Disputes Review Unit this:
I’m trying to track down the reasoning behind the current child support act, specifically for liable parents.
Could you please provide me with where I can find the supporting documentation explaining why it’s the way it is.
Why is it based on income and not on the actual cost of raising the child?
If it’s based on income why does the legislation then do an about circle and have a maximum deductable living allowance for dependant children. Shouldn’t these be treated equally? One child isn’t more entitled than the other surely?
Why is the maximum deductible living allowance for liable parents (approx 2444 per year) so much less than the amount I’m paying in child support.
Where is the Why for each point of the legislation? People need this readily available in order to not feel victimised/oppressed. Where is this to be found? Given the millions involved this will be somewhere.
The thing wasn’t scripted out of thin air. Who wrote it?
Can you also let me know where I can find IRD’s financial statistics?
I want to investigate Child support penalties for liable parents.
What is the total amount of outstanding penalties owed by liable parents?
How much does this increase on a year by year basis?
How much revenue is generated yearly from this?
Finally, where/how do I find out stats on Liable parents and suicide? These will be kept somewhere.
E.g. reason for non payment = death of the liable parent.
you keep a record of all cancelled liabilities and there will be a note stating why. As in (deceased). I don’t expect IRD to have the reason for death. Just the comment stating deceased.
That will be kept and if it’s not that is gross negligence.
Please also advise the rate of change on this over time. Number of liable parents becoming deceased over time.
Very good questions, all deserving of a justifiable answer, just don’t hold your breath…..
I have offered you access to international materials showing the development of the concept of hunting down non-custodial parents for cash. NZ’s “child support” history starts in USA, then Canada, Australia and lastly NZ. I think UK followed on from Canada, but did it fairly differently to Australia and NZ.
IRD might not bother to hold statistics which draw attention to professional responsibility and liability issues, so I have listed a few newspaper examples. I would guess that maybe 10% of such situations ever get newspaper publicity, so you can only guess at the total number. Maybe the proportion is less than 10%, suicide seems to have a particularly stunning effect on family.
The cases listed above, were suicide on initial demand, so causation is more obvious. I have observed how families of suicides shrink away and suffer in silence, so that the process can work on unabated. (One exception thankfully, Maria Bradshaw.)
However, possibly IRD cs pressures had some impact in almost all of the noncustodial parental suicides. If you are interested in those, either search newspaper files, or I can highlight a few for you? I have already been too negative, by drawing attention to our history.
Anyway, I hope that as a taxpayer, you want to minimise your future liabilities – so lets try to reduce the number of these suicides. Remember also, that children of suicides have a markedly higher rate of suicide, so the damage is still accruing against us (unless psychiatric support is given).
MurrayBacon – poor cultureless axe murderer, alas not a creator.
Thanks Murray, I’m taking note of all this. . I’m expecting IRD to decline the request to understand the why.
When they do, it’s further evidence of their vested interest to maximise the amount liable. I’m fairly sure management will have growth targets etc.
Regarding the stats. They will keep everything as they have to under the new legislation around data. They also have the tools to analyse the data, using applications like IBM’s Cognos. It will be a simple process to generate a report query on their end via the tool.
If they say they don’t have/keep that information then they are intentionally breaking the law and that alone is grounds for a lawsuit. I will request to see their Data and Security policy. Which is also required by law. They have this as I’ve seen versions for other government departs such as for the ministries of health etc.
If they say the data isn’t available. Then I will ask what data analysis applications they are using and what data fields they keep. There really are only 3-4 applications to choose from for such large data sets.
Then I ask some colleagues to advise the process involved to pull a report from said application. This I will then pass back to them to submit to their dev team.
As none of the requested information is private individual data and IRD is a transparent (by law) part of the government they are compelled to provide this.
basically I will be cross referencing age, amount paid, reason for cancellation of payment (child reached adult hood, requested by receiving parent, death), any penalties outstanding at time of death,
Would also cross reference death rates with the normal rate of male death(per age group), to see if there are any differences. If the rate is higher..
This would be where a survey could be requested from the public to tidy the data and make it more meaningful.
One can then figure out the total cost in terms of tax paid (productivity to society) from the higher death rate of child support liable males.
One can also figure out the loss of support for the child in terms of future child support payments.
One can also pull out the data on non or extremely low paying fathers. Does this number deviate from the norm of society? This would also be a cost in lost productivity to society as these could be the given up, gone off the grid males.
So you can add their lost future child support payments to the total.
All because the system is unjust and cruel.
The data alone can be used to show that children are directly impacted because of female bias in the system making individual males solely responsible for society’s gender issues. Rather than correcting it at a structural and behavioral level. They single out the group that can’t fight back, men with child support liabilities.
I expect these numbers will be large.
does anyone know a good mathemetician/statistician.
Dear Becoming extremist,
although I applaud the analysis that you are laying out, I suggest that by far and away the largest and cruellest costs, is the value of lost and damaged upbringing and poorer mental health outcomes for children, non-custodial and custodial parents.
This involves comparing the typical and worst case child development outcomes and comparing to those of children in intact and in homes were the separation was managed amicably by the parents. It is possible to put a value onto these variables, although the exact values are subject to some dispute. In any case, even the lowest possible estimates leave IRD cs penalties in the dust. (This is similar to putting a $ value onto reduced accident injuries and deaths, for planned road improvements, to decide the priority order in which to carry out the upgrades.)
Anyway, leaving aside putting dollar values onto the value of damaged childhoods and poorer developed children, any parent who knows the meaning of love (I’m not talking about free love!), would see the damage done as being more important than a few billion$ of penalties.
So I am suggesting that we should be paying more attention to the type and nature of damage being done to our children.
MurrayBacon – axe murderer.
Yes I get that. But that’s not measurable to them (IRD). They don’t give a shit about that. Clearly that is obvious? Who is in power right now and why? What element of society is reflected in the current set up.
If it’s shown to be not profitable they will stop it. Everything else is “a matter of opinion” from their lofty seat of omnipotence.
Good luck with this, it will be interesting to see the results. I’m not sure what process you go through to get this information but you might have a better chance of success getting the data if you don’t tell them why you want it or maybe request a lot of data of which this is just a small part, or maybe if you tell them that you are a female student doing a phd in some women’s studies thing or other.
got a phone call today from IRD saying I no-longer qualify for WFF and they have backdated it 3 years, $15,000 they want, not even 12 hours since the phone call today and they have added $2000 interest and penalties. wtf. they expect me my partner (which is not the mother of my children) to support me and my kids because she lives in the same house as us and we are in a relationship.
Are they saying you were in a relationship for the last three years? How do they know? She could’ve been a boarder that just turned into more etc. if you aren’t married you are single. [email protected]#K them!.
My two cents.
@too tired, they (IRD) have been digging as I have filed other documents to reduce my child support, so my other children in my full-time care get recognized in the new CS formula, they (IRD) state that because I have a home-loan with a female that also lives in the same house, we are in a a domestic relationship. we are not married.
+Becoming extremist – I share your pain. It’s the same for me only worse.
Here is how I see change occurring:
We need to educate teenagers and very young men on the realities of marriage and divorce under NZ systems.
I want to see information packs within links to web sites given to every male school child over the age of 15.
This is a long term strategy.
The way it works, is that the more men that avoid long term relationships with women, the more women are competing for a shrinking pool of lower and lower quality male partners.
When enough women see it in their best interests to make such relationships attractive to men – then the laws and systems will change.
In the mean time I tell all young men who will listen about the realities of how the systems work and the likelihood of such outcomes occurring to them.
guys… write directly to Minister of revenue and ask him your queries… esp you goose and get himj to provide you with a legislation/ regul;ation that matches the assessment thatis based on your comment in 54. At the same time reaise the same questions with IRD. Just cos they say it doesn’t mean you take it lying down.
Once the minister gets involved, the loosers will jumpo up and down to accomodate you.
Sounds to me that going into a mortgage with a women could just be a financial decision, like a business or investment. Plus she may have wanted to help you out when you became single etc.
I think there is a lot more to your story, care telling it? IRD don’t get to say how we live our lives, just get to state our income etc. if you go to them with proof of your income they cant say someone else contributes, for all they know she could be blackmailing you to live rent free.
I have 3 children, which only one I have CS liable for, which he lives in south of chch with his mum, since day one its all been about power and control for her, shes not liking it much and playing nasty since I submitted to IRD that my 28% of care (school holidays, weekends) now qualify for a shared care / recognized care % – which means she is also CS liable, but she is trying her hardest to skip weekends or shorten school holidays just enough so it goes under the threshold. I am in progress of writing to the courts to enforce contact for weekends, school holidays and family vacations without notice. She manipulates everything I say or do and makes me out to be a useless dad.
my youngest son lives with us full time, with my new partner (not her child) / we bought a house together 3 years ago. we wouldnt be in a house if it wasnt for her KS deposit and her parents help. I am self employed and declaring a minimum wage to ensure cashflow is left in the business to grow.
I submitted forms to the IRD as for some reason my youngest son is not declared as a dependent child, but he has been, as according to IRD I am the primary care giver and is in my care 85% of the time. They tried to tell me to claim CS against his mother in order to reduce my CS, I dont want to do this as she is helping out in other ways and a CS claim will just upset the good easy going relationship we have. They rang me and said according to our paper work you have a new partner and you no longer qualify and asked me when we moved in and then questioned me with other dates and told me several times ‘are you sure your relationship started then’ and badgered me. They must have been doing background checks or something. They never asked for my partners full name or IRD number, so they must have already done their homework.
my CS has gone from the minimum to over $200 a month, I believe my CS is set on minimum due to large costs of cost of contact and all the other bits n pieces I contribute (haircuts, phone top-ups, shoes,etc), which is never enough according to his mother. I had a small buffer that I got for WFF to help to our grocery bill each week, but that has gone. CS has increased, so I am left with $10 a week left after paying my share of household expenses. Why should my partner financially support me and my child because IRD are taking every cent I earn?
some people may ask – why dont I pay myself more? well CS goes up, INC tax goes up. whatever I pay myself, everything goes up. No better off in my opinion.
I have a couple of questions for anyone that’s interested in replying.
Currently, l have been living abroad and have been out of New Zealand for about 10 years and have racked up a huge child support bill.
Presently, the IRD is trying to contact me and talk about payment, which l have simply ignored and have no intention of paying.
Other than Australia, does the IRD have any ability to collect, enforce or do anything to recoup anything from me? As far as l can see, until l move back to New Zealand there isn’t much they can do to me.
Let me know if thus is the case and if there is anyone here that l can email privately to discuss thus situation.
First off, IRD monitor this site.
It is a stroke of a pen for them to get an interception warrant and read your emails.
Australia is a special case as our IRD has permission to operate in that jurisdiction (or did) I’m not sure if they still do after being directly responsible for hounding a man to suicide. Oddly enough the Australians don’t won’t to talk about it.
There are reciprocal agreements with some countries, e.g. England for one, where respective child support agencies work for each other.
If IRD is contacting you, good chance you’re in one of those countries.
We had new legislation passed on child support in 2015, and IRD has a renewed interest in collecting the 3 billion or so dollars in penalties.
Good luck. If they do tackle you with any interesting tactics, please let us know.
Australia is the only country with a reciprocal agreement.
Anywhere else in the world and compliance with NZ Child Support is effectively voluntary.
My e-mail is [email protected] and I am happy to discuss privately.
The info written in post 62 is not correct.
Yes IRD have monitored this site. I don’t know of any inception warrants. I do know of some threats to our loyal we slate. Rules with Aussie remain the same. NZ does not have a reciprocal arrangement with any country other than Aussie. The new 2015 proposals are to write off penalties if taxpayers become compliant. Basically IRD and government are embarrassed at a system that encourages non-compliance and racks up stupid numbers that will never be collected.
#63 Really Allan Harvey
Then I guess the information freely available in the media is all made up too is it.
From the IRD Website
IRD Special Arrangement with Australia. 2013
Here’s some information on the Commonwealth Agreement:
There’s another post here, where you can keep us updated on your situation.
It will be of interest to others who arrive here.
Using the threat of suicide or committing suicide is considered a form of emotional abuse so it is unlikely to get what you want. It is more likely to get you labelled as an emotional abuser. It will validate their claims. Your best “revenge” is to take whatever they throw at you and smile. Keep persisting and once it is over – rise to greatness.
I avoid saying anything derogatory about my former wife in front of my kids. – even though she calls me and my new partner all sorts of names in front of my kids. Even when the kids tell me all the things that she has said and called me I resist the urge to correct and respond. It is their mum any anything bad I say – I know will be held against me. I’m in debt because I had to pay her out for the division of property. I got a bad deal because I could foresee the assets being absorbed by legal fees otherwise and being even worse off.
The kids hardly see their mum because she is emotionally abusive towards them.
Having a bit of trouble joining the dots anyone?
Has anyone had any experience with the IRD issuing an SPS 05/07 Non-disclosure right for tax advice documents under section 17 of the New Zealand tax code.
The reason l am asking is because currently the IRD has sent such a form to my parents requesting information about me.
If there is anyone here that has dealt with this before and is able to share some information with me on how best to effectively deal with this, please email me at [email protected]
Have you seen the above information page?
I see there are some specific timeframes for response.