What I dont get is if you add my income and my ex income together and divide by 50%…the inland revenue seem to think it takes near on $600 a week to raise two teens…so I have to pay her $300 a week, when she
earns almost as much as me. The way I see it she will not need to put her hand in her pocket for the kids at all. My $300 a week I give the IRD will cover all their costs. I so dont get this
I no longer work any overtime , nor do I seek promtion at my place of employment.There is no incentive to get ahead because any extra money that I earn gets sucked out of my salary directly by IRD, without me ever seeing a cent.
I am seriously considering resigning from my current full time employment and taking a lesser paying, part tme job.
I have worked out using the IRD child support formula, that I will be at least $8000 a year better off. Where is the incentive to get ahead, when you get crucified by IRD all the time.
The waste of men’s potential contribution to society (and to their own children throughout their lives), the reduction in productivity, the increase in stress-related illness and suicide, are all appalling results of our so-called ‘child support’ system which is in reality a wealth transfer system from males to females.
Other problems include serious reduction in father-child bonding because the father’s financial contribution is channeled through the mother so the child has no sense of ‘dad caring about me and looking after my interests’. Instead, many children are fed complaints by their custodial mothers that their father is to blame for their financial limitations, aside from everything else problematic in their lives.
# Chris Miles
Its so wrong,you are suffering the blockade
The IRD are the wall they are cold hearted debt collectors with bonus incentives,that stand in the way of the Non Custodian Parents progression that will never go away until your children are of age.If you end up servicing a debt they with extend their participation in your life until its met.They do not take indivdual circumstances into account.You can even be audited suspecting undeclared income.
Courts , the Law,Lawyers,Law enforcement Social Welfare,CYF, are just some of the little tin soldiers that get paid large amounts of money mostly by the Government to support divide and isolate you.
You the Father your income is going into support these people behind the Wall.They are like maggots in a feeding frenzy defunct of any empathy.After all they are just doing their job.
On top of Feminist organisations, anti media and negative public scrutiny you are been judged for thinking this way the “deadbeat Dad” that doesnt want to pay, behaving irresponsibly.
I have done exactly what you have mentioned only if you are a hard working person or you have moved on and have entered into a new relationship its almost impossible to continue unless you have complete support and understanding in your new relationship.Very very difficult to achieve.This situation just done my head in.
I also went the other way worked so hard I never took a holiday for 8 years with FIFO work.
still got hammered. Only at least my partner and I werent forced below our means.
I wish you Luck Chris Miles I really do, because here you will find empathy and people with far more education and information that may be able to assist and help.
Is this the NEW formula? The new Child Cost of living TAX which has no set $$ value and is assessed on what BOTH parents EARN?
I said long ago on this blog – all that has changed – is that the system is now going after BOTH parents because now BOTH parents have to work to support a family – separated or not.
Sorry Man X norton – you got it all right except for saying this is a wealth transfer to women – its NOT – its a WEALTH transfer from us ALL – the object of the game is to make us ALL IMPOVERISHED and POOR….and without property….not just one parent.
The disincentives to work operates in a similar fashion = by you choosing not to seek promotions or improve your income – you are playing into the targeted AIMS of the system – to make you POOR…..which is exactly what is happening.
Once poor you also have very little meaningful opportunity to have input into your child’s life. On that point yes they want fathers out of a child’s life……WHY???
Fatherless children – who have missed the input of a strong male figure are just what the system wants – because then those children are more VULNERABLE and easily targeted by parasites and pedophiles in the future…..
Have we all missed this point lately – have you all noticed the large numbers of pedophiles being exposed in political circles??
Who here opposes Pedophilia?? I hope everyone does…….can we start a march of good men – real fathers ( and mothers ) who want to stand up against pedophiles – especially those in POWER…….secrecy currently preventing them from being named….
It appears we have an epidemic in this area in the western world – that needs to be fixed for the betterment and protection of all parents…….and CHILDREN.
if we have pedophiles in power – then we have no chance of ever fixing this blight on society.
Surely this is a subject we can ALL AGREE ON?
#2 Dear Man X Norton, you concisely summed up the practical reality of child [and spousal] support!
Hornet what truly disgusted me lately was Rolf Harris rants from Prison.
He is still in denial, yet he was a big name in show business that put his hand up and asked children to do the same against child abuse and sexual abuse.
Its disgraceful low lives like Harris that give Men such a bad name. The death by association syndrome.They cant help themselves because their evil addiction generates them towards children who are vulnerable in Family homes, Schools and as you’ve stated Government.
You can understand Men like this are isolated from imprisoned Fathers, Brothers and sons who have children that are vunerable on the outside
I have no trouble believing that all Parents will unite against these animals hidden in the shadows.
I couldn’t give a monkeysbutt what the law says. I still have unfinished business concerning this issue regarding an introduction and abuse with a member of my own family
#6 Sadly it appears that sexual deviant child abusers like him – known for years to be so – was thrown out as a sacrificial lamb to make it look like something is being done about this…….this fools NO ONE.
Similarly the Saville case exposed a very sick underbelly in our western society which has been permitted to flourish unabated for a very long time – and is still covered up to this day.
If we look closer at the manipulation of people in power – entrapment – leveraging them, blackmailing them – its apparent this has been a tactic which has gone on for too long and needs to cease. Society has evolved, moved on from such disgusting practices. People are more ENLIGHTENED, more knowledgeable and I guess this scares the shit out of those who have lied to so many for so long…… hence the need for INCREASES in SPYING on GOOD PEOPLE……
In NZ after Winston WON NORTHLAND – we must ask ourselves why his BILL TO NAME PEDOPHILES was thrown out and rejected by our own government – why would they want this SECRECY on such a socially important subject????
Men and Women of NZ – stand up and ask this question if you really want to help children – if you genuinely CARE about our kids – why are Pedophiles being protected – how many are in power right now being hidden? Why is the Family Court SECRET? What are they hiding? Nothing I discussed in family court needed to be kept secret – but perhaps the deliberate HARM caused by the system to my child needed to be kept SECRET……
These are the questions you should all be asking instead of driving the wedge between sexes – creating more conflict – which never resolves any of the issues we discuss here…….do you want CONFLICT or CHANGE.
Get to the Source of the CONCERN and you FIX the problem for EVERYONE……..why do many of our concerns currently start with the letter P……..
Pedophiles – Power, Politicians, Psychopaths………I am sure you can add more……
The child support system operates in different ways in different situations.
It provides a general outcome that sometimes:
… is a wealth transfer from Father to Mother
… is a control of funding through the mother to the child
… is a source of income to the state
and so on.
When men don’t see their situation embodied in a discussion they switch off, because it is not answer to their problem.
The division, and there one, is not understanding each other’s consequence from the effects of the Child Support System.
#1Chris, if you have assets then let me advise you that if you are unhappy under the formula regime then you will be suicidal under the Administrative Review process. Should your income drastically reduce, for whatever reason, and a submission for review of your ability to pay is lodged by the child’s mother, then the officer looking at your case will rate your income at your previous income or higher. They don’t care what excuse you have. They just focus on the fact that you have assets that can be liquidated and passed on to the child’s mother. I know this because I have been subjected to the process over many years.
If you wish to have a happy life and are a young man (under 40) my best advise to you is to take a trip to Thailand and undergo surgery to become a female. The world will be your oyster. Just lay back with your legs apart and enjoy it.
SECRET SECRET SECRET – have you noticed that everything that is CORRUPTED must be done in SECRET……
SECRET family court
SECRET TPP agreements
SECRET Spying on you
SECRET Constitution change
SECRET hiding criminal cases against Politicians
SECRET – hiding pedophiles in Parliament.
Secrecy is Deception and Secrecy is corruption.
Secrecy (also called clandestinity or furtiveness) is the practice of hiding information from certain individuals or groups, perhaps while sharing it with other individuals. That which is kept hidden is known as the secret.
I think the world has had a guts full of SECRECY and SUBVERSION and HIDDEN SECRET AGENDAS that are NOT benefitting the PEOPLE…….
Finding this site has been great, it has also provided excellent information.
However I can glean all the information I can yet it still wont assist me.It only validates what has be historic and continued suffering towards Alienated Parents.Fathers are over represented here through their ordeals and frustrations.So all I can really do is have empathy.
On a personal level I now have limited re established contact with one of my children.
Limited in that it felt like Id won Lotto, only it going to be a long term before full payment.
Through this contact it has brought the whole ugly past back only this time we are both older and hopefully wiser.It makes one very tired because we both have to work through the past.
Id like our 22 years back
Id like this to never happen to anyone else ever again.
I want peace and harmony between the ex and everyone else associated.
Id like to go back an undo all of it .Specially complete strangers having power over which direction or course of action is best Good intentions of not.
Id like my children to be free of this social disease,the effect that has crippled our whole family.
Id like to cancel my decision to escape, run for self preservation and not made to feel like I did abandon my children.Many years have passed and circumstances are now so different to form that opinion.Yet how can I really blame my children for feeling this way. When you hear “we needed you Dad” Despite what Mum did.
I tell my child that i never stopped loving them only to be questioned .”if you loved us then why did you leave”.Mum never gave us away.All that transpired all the hardship at this point is lost in the past.I cant tell my child it got so bad I wanted to check out.
I live in hope that things will bind again as it should have never been broken.
Only i find myself walking on glass been so careful of everything listening to my Daughter undo herself unravel the hardship both her parents are guilty of, getting educated by the people it hurt the most. Never having understood the effect of her world exploding apart and been robbed of having a say.
Im been pulled apart, humbled, re educated in such away that exceeds any education on here or any Im ever likely to see again. Im been parented by my Daughter whos a loving Mother herself.
I cant mention hidden Government agenda,stats, information on here or even (PAS) not without fear of been ridiculed justified or not.
My Daughter remembers 6 years of a gentle giant in her life a mountain she could hold and be safe a Father that could toss her into the sky and fall safe into his arms.The first place she took shelter when she fell sick, She wants that back too only shes to big for that now we both know it will take time…time that robbed us of so much…time that will mend and bind.
I fully support MENZ I do however I must deal with the only issue thats important at this time
I cant help any on here at this moment other than repeat to Parents and children out their that are still suffering.
Keep the faith, you are loved and its always remembered.
Just thought I would share my news. 16 years after the IRD began assessing me and about 190K of payments on I am finally out of the system. It took the idiots at IRD 3 weeks to process the cancellation and as usual they were as helpfull as a plague but I now no longer pay child tax.
However watch out, the females in your life will know you are now potential prey with income avialable to them and nobody else. Keep it in your pants, or tie a knot in it. Be safe. Female sexual predators are the ones you least suspect, and its to late when you find out.
The answer is to have this child tax split in two parts. Part one is the compulsory part which is the minimum cost of a basic package of goods a child requires. Like what they would get on a benefit. Part two is a suggested voluntary part based on parents income. Part two should be voluntary because hwo much to spend and what to spend it on is a parenting decision.
In the 80’s the BNZ bank ran a trust fund for children’s education. You set up one of these accounts in your child’s name and deposited money at a no tax high interest rate. In order to have money released you would have to produce receipts to the bank showing that the proposed withdrawals were related to the child’s education. I saw this as a great way of running the child support system. The main caregiver would be required to justify the use of the support given to the child after a given threshold for a child’s basic needs ( at that time I think i suggested $40 a week. I was paying over $100). I arranged to meet a BNZ manager and after pitching the idea to him he was very supportive of the concept. I knew it would be of great value to a bank to have this enormous amount of money at their disposal. They already had the infrastructure in place for the education trust. I then presented the proposal to the select committee looking into the child support system at the time and, through my nieveity at the time, was shocked at their dismissal of it due to “the humiliation it would bring to young mother’s” ………..yea! Right.
Over and over again on this site men grossly underestimate the cost of raising children.Some say $40 a week.yeah right!!! No credibility and this could lend light to issues around the relationship breakdown.
tracey (#16): The $40 per week may refer to the half contribution to a child’s keep, not the entire cost. $80 per week ($4160 per year) purely for the child may well be adequate for basic needs with careful budgeting. It’s similar to the extra amount the government adds to an adult’s benefit to cater additionally for a child, and this is sufficient albeit not comfortable for those beneficiary parents. Discretionary spending isn’t allowed to be taken into account for the paying parent so shouldn’t be covered for the receiving parent either.
However, if fathers were able to provide their financial contribution directly to their children, most fathers would provide a lot more than $40 or $80 per week unless they themselves were unemployed and financially struggling. If fathers were able to account for their contribution through receipts for buying clothes, school needs and food for their children (rather than paying IRD unreasonable amounts of money that gets channeled through the mother), this would contribute greatly to father-child bonding and lifelong support and role by fathers for their children. It would also ensure that the father’s contribution is actually spent on the children’s welfare.
The current so-called ‘child support’ system is a fraud. It is a child-abusive system that facilitates alienation of the paying parent as well as often wrecking that parent’s own financial future (so rendering that parent unable to be of much support to the children in their adulthood). It contributes significantly to the atrocious suicide rate by NZ men. Its aim was always to enable women’s existence to be paid for by men without reciprocal obligation, through the enslavement of any man a woman may have mated with. Under the scheme ‘liable’ parents on higher income are made to pay up to three thousand dollars per month to the spouse who discarded them. Thousands of dollars per month is not needed to cater for a child, so this is blatant slavery to fund the lifestyle of the receiving parent.
But slight problem… That would mean children brought up in a single parent household is more likely to be living in poverty.No extra curriculum activities like music or sport. No orthodontics, no school trips, no holidays,no specialized help for learning problems…..
Yes thousands of children are in this boat.Why should a single parent household be doomed to this purely because parents separate? Remember thatost two parent households are strapped for cash.$80 a week to house, clothe, educate,transport, pay for health and dental care and on and on is simply inadequate.Get real.Braces alone breaks this budget for the year.Actually just a thought .Can you live on $80 a week? Yeah right
You’re forgetting about the extra contribution from the father, as per triassic’s suggestion. This would be limited only by the father’s resources.
Tracy are you saying Parenting is difficult?..agree
That it cost alot being a single parent….agree
That you need to budget…agree
That theres enough education out there to be successful at this
Even recovery as far as dept is concerned through budget advisors etc…agree.
I have read many of your posts so
What you are saying is the blame for this failure to be a good parent under those conditions
…is men not paying enough..lol.
Ok lets go with that..
Are you saying alienated Fathers who are not able to be there.
Arent paying enough attention to the kids,
they arent paying enough attention to there diet,
they arent paying enough attention to their schooling and Education
they arent paying enough attention when they are ill.
they arent paying enough attention to their childs needs Tracey probably because most
Alienated fathers dont know, where, when or how their children are because in the eyes of the Law they are
with the more responsible Parent that can do it all better on their own.
Fathers are alienated Tracy
Im an Alienated Father Tracy…
Yet your not talking about Parenting
Your talking about the cost…typical
Woman take full control knowing the course as well as men do Tracy…full control
So when it gets too difficult its ….what….WHAT…our fault..LOL
I get so sick of hearing Woman who have taken full control and then get nasty when the Father carries on been successful.
What about Pride Tracy..because at no point..any
would I have denied anything my children needed..none. Their Mother just needed to ask
She never asked because it was her choice too Tracy …
You seem to what to skip all that and just bang on with FATHERS need to pay more….PFTttt
challenge Men too see if we could do it on X amount of dollars…
umm “A wise man would already know the answer and look at options before taking control”
umm A wise woman would or should do the same….just saying
tracey (#18): What I could live on is not the same as the costs required for children. Also, I don’t see how children will be more deprived or in poverty if fathers provide their financial contribution directly to the children rather than through the mother. Or in the situation of equal shared care. Their most valuable contribution though will be their bonding with their children, the children’s trust that their father cares about them.
Also, your claim in #16 about $40 per week was a misrepresentation. Triassic was talking about the 1980s.
Vman (#14). Good idea! How would it work in the case of equal shared care.
Woman supported by the system in the belief that because they carry a child to full term,
are seen Medically and through the eyes of the Laws as the natural care givers. “By right of passage”.
Yet soon after birth both child and mother face a number of challengers, one major issue is rejecting the child.
If this occurs the whole system kicks in and helps support Mother and Child.
Pre Natal depression may occur where the child is refused to be held, fed, or embraced.
Ive even witnessed Fathers been turned away because they are adding too that state of affairs,
simply by JUST been present….
Two in fact the day my youngest was born..walking around stressed out like zombies in a hell of a state concerned.
So they are shown the door! come back later we will see how things are? Can I see my child?, well theirs a Midwife present taking care of the baby while the Mother is under immense pressure its better that you wait.
We will contact you…..classic
Alienation starts very early and not just by the Mothers.
As Fathers we support go home and wait for improvement concerned about both our loved ones..
Only is the effect of been a new Father so early rejected, even made the reason for been isolated taken into consideration…nope because systematic removal is encouraged.
The system is now in full gear all concentrated on BONDING the Mother and Child.
Fathers are expect too take a back seat some times its forced. For the good of the Mother and child.
You would be hard pushed not to notice this also occurs in our Family Courts…systematically removed.
“With full prejudice” all legal, encouraged and implemented.
While the world wonders why Fathers would even consider rejecting or neglecting their children.
They are judged deadbeat dads..
What about a little humility and a SMALL sample of encouragement like the Mothers get automatically from EVERYONE involved.
To far outside the square or what?
SUPPORT ALIENATED PARENTS…..its real
Your right Joseph, perhaps a national – “support alianated parents day” would draw attention to the needs of thousands of NZ fathers and children.
Thier children don’t understand why thier dads aren’t present in thier lives.
Few women ever experience loss of thier paternal rights to thier children yet countless dads know agonising loss like an axe wound to the soul.
Once our rights are removed and we realise that our only required input is to pay and pay, we become bewildered and feel deceived and at a loss for purpose.
Some handle it and accept it, some turn to drink , some to suicide, many become increasingly angry.
Yet largely, the problem is ignored and children are raised without the love of thier fathers.
joseph (#24): Good points, though it’s post-natal depression you meant to refer to I think.
Note also that all or most DHBs have ‘Woman, Child and Family’ dedicated services. Some are called ‘Woman and Family’ services. I’m not certain but I sense there might be something missing from those titles. Oh I must have been mistaken, I forgot families consist only of women and children. Silly me.
I do note however that no DHB seems to have any service with the name ‘Men’ in it. Oh, that’s right I forgot that men don’t have separate issues worth worrying about, and men don’t pay any taxes so they don’t deserve specific male services in our health system. Hang on, is that right? I’m getting confused. Never mind, men don’t matter so just forget it. Sorry for mentioning it. Sorry for daring to breathe.
‘Support Alienated Parents’ probably won’t get much traction because they’re mostly fathers.
However, there is an International Day for ‘Innocent Children who are Victims of Aggression’
Plan something for June 4th next year – 2016 – the year to recognise parental alienation.
# 25 Voice from the Bush.. exactly and a big concern! 🙁
# 26. Man X Norton…thank you,
I have shared Im not as well educated as some on here,
ONLY please continue because the information on this site has blown members of my Family away!
I have re directed them to this site and received positive feed back 🙂
They are becoming aware only mostly about the depth of suffering concerning Alienated Fathers as well as myself and other Fathers that have shared on here. 🙂
They are identifying my emotional behaviour over a long period and the reasons why
and are a bit shell shocked regarding “PAS”
“Small steps been very positive ones” while Ive had to lose the aggression and bitterness over rights through suttle re education.
Prime example My Mum and my Daughter…They read my posts which are totally different to listening to me going blue in the face with frustration for years..Its been acknowledged.
As well as other Alienated Fathers sharing their suffering on here has re enforced the whole issue.
A huge risk for me because I havent exactly held back on here!
Only I thought “WHAT THE HELL”, about time we shared all the grief as a Family,
The threat of missing out is WELL ….lost inside 22 years. Weve all done our bloody time!
My children are ADULTs now,My Mum was just too terrified to get involved, its been hard on her, specially considering she never forgot she had Grandchildren.Mum will simply have to work that decision out on her own with the Grand daughter.With my blessing and all the help I can give them both of course.
As far as supporting “Innocent Children who are victims of Aggression” I believe it falls under Alienated Parent syndrome and not the other way around Regardless of over representation by men.
Like Man X Norton expressed its the continue push to completely LEAVE OUT recognizing MEN in the whole equation and the on going attack by Woman making it a Womans only issue by the media and Fem MANIACs pushing for their own agenda.
“SUPPORT MEN SUFFERING WITH ALIENATED SYNDROME”..its real
Mothers,Daughters and children pro active protecting their Fathers…keep the faith!
#26 Man X Norton
-post natal depression-
Its not before the post , its during and directly after..
With Mums rejecting Bubs:(
..thats real too..
Its what I meant while u knew..lol
Yes Joseph there’s lots of alienated fathers to sympathise and give you advice and understanding.
When you’ve had false accusations destroy your life, accusations about domestic violence for example – there is the same understanding as many men relate.
Frighteningly – many , many men relate.
There’s a lot of depressing natal-posts on this website.
Re Post natal depression, there is no training for the councillors, nurses, midwives, social workers, doctors, lawyers etc on this topic, they all know it exists, but refuse to teach or acknowledge it in their classrooms and universities, this is bad for women and families…
The best way to care for a women with PMH issues is to include, inform and support her partner too.. The only organisations saying this are Father and Child, Great Fathers and PMHNZ – and they actually offer PMH training days… One is on at Auckland Uni this month with a Pasifika focus…
The only org officially offering to work with dads in support around pND is Father and Child.. they’ve been partnering with womens pnd groups for nearly twenty years, over a hundred million of Govt money has been spend on PND support for mums and babies in this time, almost nothing for the dads…
I live in two Countries that totally ignore the obvious…
Much harder in Australia because of distance while New Zealanders are alienated by Australian policy in conjuction with New Zealand policy.
When the floods came through Queensland it wiped alot of famlies out, many people lost their lives and everything they owned.Australians stood tall through all of the suffering , helping to relocate Families to safe shelter, warmth, food and sympathy while it was recognised in the news that few had seen that kind of public surge of helping their fellow neighbours since the outback of world war 2. It was truely amazing.
I congratulate Queenlanders for the spirit and concern they showed suffering Families.
However horror stories soon emerged that New Zealand Families that lost it all were denied any assistance because they werent residential not been recognised as flood victims and refused. assistance.
I was there helping picking up unwanted or donated house goods and re delivering it to destitute families with nothing. Our company was a Kiwi firm and quickly got involved. One victim who lost it all when his house went under was in a wheelchair. He had suffered a major back injury and was caught up in the process of a claim for 4 years.He was lucky he survived at all his house went completely under.
His house was stripped down, cleaned and second hand goods kindly donated, food was stocked up as well as his car been fixed all from charity.We found out his only joy in life was his playstation so the boys put in and got him another. Humbling to see how grateful he was to ALL the people who helped their was heaps of Nationalities involved.
Unfortunately other New Zealand Families missed out we found out later on. Families were denied assistance through policy and with the cloths on their back ended up on a flight too Wellington.New Zealanders are not covered in Australia in 2006 they changed their policy again now its NO New Zealander despite been here for years is entitled. A one off grant for 6 months payed by New Zealand thats it…
Shocking considering over half a million Kiwis pay tax.Thanks to Howard and Clark both mongrels 2001. Keys has bleated about it but done nothing but blow wind towards challenging that policy.So any form of crisis Kiwis are in peril if they are hit.
*You may wonder where Im going with all this. Simple its only by unity we can challenge policy*.
Just as honoured as people felt helping Families relocate concerned about their welfare, there is acknowledgement that policy and the system is corrupt. Here and New Zealand
I would be proud to walk in protest with anyone whos suffering from PAS, I would enjoy bringing out the hypocritical woman driven co groups who deliberately over look Mens suffering with watered down contempt as if its a side issue.While riding on the backs of Men suffering to promote their own WELL FUNDED agenda. Still playing the damsel in distress through media driven politics while been utter low life sneaky %$*& in reality.
I would be honoured to count myself amougst suffers that have been systematically removed from their children with prejudicial intent.I have no fear of been recognized in such company no fear at all other than ELATION..
nothing at all for dads…..I dont thinks so considering its a social empidemic that is surging towards a conclusion to be recognized anyway.
Keep the faith