MENZ Issues: news and discussion about New Zealand men, fathers, family law, divorce, courts, protests, gender politics, and male health.

Concerned Mens Meeting – Saturday 4th November

Filed under: General — Downunder @ 2:42 pm Sat 2nd September 2017

A meeting will be held in Auckland on this day should the Ministry of Men’s Affairs choose to organise it.

Concerned Men can attend the meeting and express their opinions.

Let us know where this is. Venue to be advised.

In the absence of a physical venue, this meeting will be held online. See you all next Saturday.

Updated Saturday 4th November 2017;

The analysis of politics in history records easily enough, the lurching from crisis to crisis, the ‘failures’ and the ‘sucessful’ undertakings, as a matter of opinion, but the critical analysis of the persecutions, the conflicts, and lost possibilities, are usually the consequence of courage and retrospect. They are often not taught but found by those who choose to look.

The observation: ‘This helped destroy a pattern of life without building a new one.’; is no stranger to anthropology.

Following this election, the outpouring on social media suggests there is not only disappointment, but varying levels of anger in the consequences of MMP and the way in which this government has formed.

The initial marketing of the new regime is similar to what we saw in the Clark era, hugging of children, dictates to independent bodies like the Rugby Union to ‘pay the girls too’ and payback to ‘youthquake’ fulfilled with next year’s free education.

Whether the winds of change are strong enough to blow anything larger than a tongue is yet to be seen, but I don’t recall any pictures of politicians hugging homeless men.

There is an opportunity here to consider and reconsider the way we use social media and the way in which we respond to our current social situation.

It would be encouraging to see here today, not only general or specific concerns relevant to the purpose of the site, but also comment on participation in social media, and how this site could make a greater contribution to the social dialogue that is gaining considerable momentum outside of mainstream media.


  1. I am coming . Dear fellow men , let organize our selves .If you are not affected by PO , the chances are quite high it may happen to you one day

    Comment by George — Sat 2nd September 2017 @ 5:47 pm

  2. Auckland meeting sounds good to me. I’ll turn up.

    Comment by DJ Ward — Sat 2nd September 2017 @ 7:39 pm

  3. I’m confused downunder….it is a great idea for brainstorming plus networking and one I will attend but why must MoMA organise it? Maybe you are referring to a location?

    Comment by triassic — Sat 2nd September 2017 @ 10:14 pm

  4. brilliant… count me in… I am a big advocate for men’s mental health and have spoken to many organisations about this.

    Comment by Peter Chatteris — Sun 3rd September 2017 @ 12:24 am

  5. @3 if MOMA doesn’t want to organise this meeting, they should say so now, as it appears that there are concerned men wanting to attend this meeting.

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 3rd September 2017 @ 2:18 am

  6. This is just a piss-take from Downunder who is wasting our time and bandwidth out of some problematic motivation.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Sun 3rd September 2017 @ 2:07 pm

  7. You might be correct but that doesn’t meen we can’t have a get together even if it’s not in a hall with some speakers. Just a group of like minded people meeting in a garden bar is all that’s required. No organising required really. While the stuff we do here on Menz is one thing, we do need to find ways to engage with the outside world and those things may best be discussed in private. I’ve got some ideas and I’m sure others do too.

    Comment by DJ Ward — Sun 3rd September 2017 @ 3:15 pm

  8. I have to say I was a bit confused about this post when first I read it, and didn’t pay enough attention.

    It occurs to me, on Fathers Day, that the fathers who make up the MENZ community, especially those of us getting closer to senior years, should be modeling the sort of behaviour that we hope society will emulate.

    I am well aware that feminist groups tear themselves apart regularly, but it doesn’t have to be this way.

    Throughout human history, progress has most often been made when groups of men learned to band together, and to put aside their differences in the pursuit of a common goal.
    This can only happen if we treat each other with respect, even if we don’t always agree. Please be nicer.

    I do however think that holding a meeting on Nov 4th is a great idea.

    I would prefer somewhere quiet, and I agree with DJW that we don’t need speakers. We could just sit in a circle, spend 5-10 mins introducing ourselves and chucking out any big ideas we might have, then see what happens after that.

    Any venue ideas?

    If anyone who thinks they might come leaves a comment here, we will know how big a place we need.

    Comment by JohnPotter — Sun 3rd September 2017 @ 7:20 pm

  9. We’ll certainly attend a meeting like that, sounds good.

    Comment by Ministry of Men's Affairs — Sun 3rd September 2017 @ 9:52 pm

  10. Great idea.
    I am a good keen man.
    In my experience, talking together in a room is far more productive than keyboard warriors shouting at each other from safe distances.
    Progress only seems to be made when people contribute well, listen to each other and have a fairly good understanding of each other. Of course this does have to happen in the opposite order!?
    In other words, teamwork.
    Expecting progress before establishing relationships, would be expecting too much. Thus can lead to falling apart and recriminations.
    There is a large herd of elephants that needs to be made visible. Quite hard work, I fear, before the real work can even start.
    The 4th is a little too late to be able to assemble large, huge amounts of explosive. An earlier date might work better in this respect?

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 4th September 2017 @ 12:21 pm

  11. Lots to discuss….here is a study from California university comparing 16000 households and assessing the true costs of raising a child.

    The knives are out for this state enforced child support scam ……which is simply being used to incarcerate good fathers…..

    Comment by Hornet — Tue 5th September 2017 @ 8:08 pm

  12. And here is a good woman telling it like it is……she’s on the side of good fathers….

    Comment by Hornet — Tue 5th September 2017 @ 8:09 pm

  13. Thanks Hornet for the good youtube videos. The study on the cost of raising a child was interesting and contradicts the feminist corruption of scientific method employed a couple of years ago to suggest that such costs amounted to many hundreds of thousands of dollars (therefore men should be even further impoverished to support the lifestyles of women they were unlucky enough to mate with). That research was incomprehensible, made numerous false assumptions and subjected its basic data to mysterious mathematical manipulation to come out with ridiculous numbers.

    Comment by Man X Norton — Thu 7th September 2017 @ 11:28 am

  14. In my opinion, it would be helpful if possible attendees indicated the topics that they would like to discuss?
    Then we can see whether a large single discussion is the best format, or several smaller interest groups?
    I would suggest:
    1. how to build and enhance teamwork among fathers and bring in more fathers
    2. how to obtain increased political influence
    3. quality and timeliness of familycaught$ decisions and their impact onto the parenting that children receive.
    4. impacts of IRD child [and spousal] support on parent’s and children’s lives.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Sat 9th September 2017 @ 3:46 pm

  15. If a man was concerned that his neighbour had committed suicide, or his brother was unemployed, or he really wasn’t sure if he cast the right vote, or if he should of voted, when he didn’t, or if he was just concerned, that when he looked around, he thought, ‘it dudn’t look right anymore’, which group would he go to?

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 10th September 2017 @ 2:45 pm

  16. So your mothers said, “Hang in there sons, it’ll be ok.”
    Your sisters said, “Don’t you stress boys, we’re here for youse.”
    The Doctors said, “You take those pills, don’t you throw them away.”
    So, you commin along or are we just gonna keep singin’ the blues?

    Comment by Downunder — Sun 10th September 2017 @ 4:14 pm

  17. If there is a realistic looking meeting, that is not too expensive, I will attend.
    I believe that MoMA has made the same commitment.
    I don’t know of anyone else who has committed to attend?
    The last 4 such meetings I have attended, haven’t achieved anything of value. (Thus, maybe I should stay away?)
    To be motivated to attend, I would like to have sensible goals and to be driven by positive goals, rather than bitterness.
    A bit more clarity about the proposal would help.

    I was at a disability group meeting and a comment was made by the chairman that they were working in with related groups, so that if political issues arose, they could quickly submit a single letter, with their agreed submission and a list of the organisations that signed the letter, complete with their total paid up membership number. Typically the total number would be in low hundreds to several thousand. (Of course, on some issues, not all groups might sign one particular letter.) This type of arrangement is possibly a model that we should aim at?
    I recall from the past, that letters that we wrote on various men’s or father’s issues, rarely could claim more than 10 signatures. Such letters don’t put as much pressure onto politicians.
    Business lobbies combine many employers and even go so far as to directly contest elections, masquerading as a voter’s party and win.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Mon 11th September 2017 @ 12:09 pm

  18. 17, good suggestions Murray, I would look forward to a metting as there’s much benefit in speaking face to face about men’s issues moving forward. I don’t think the organising needs to be done by Moma, they have already organised two events in wellington this year, You are a seasoned campaigner and well rounded about the issues, how about you chair/adjudicate/referee a meeting?
    Obveously all of us want to have our say and listen to others with as little restriction as possible.
    Personally I would prefer a closed meeting with attendee’s being asked to explain thier interest in being there as the press has not been kind in the past and loves to misrepresent us.
    As a venue suggestion, I think we could do better than a pub setting which may not be very private.
    I know some guys who are in the masonic lodge here on Waiheke, they support men’s issues and might allow us to use thier lodge meeting room, Its private and equipped with a kitchen, (i’ll ask them to put the goats away) attendees would have to come up with $28 for return ferry ticket from auckland, a pot luck lunch perhaps, Call it the first annual Waiheke wolfpack meeting!?
    Perhaps on a Saturday or Sunday without a specified finishing time.

    Just a suggestion,I Welcome idea’s from others & I look forward to catching up with you again Murray and meeting others also.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Mon 11th September 2017 @ 3:56 pm

  19. The meeting suggestion came from Downunder. So I would guess that he should have first right of refusal on chairing etc?
    As I remember him, he would be a good chairman and I want to support that.
    I don’t feel generally respected, so I would not be keen to try and act as facilitator etc.
    My budget is very tight.
    I like clarity more than unmanaged confusion.
    I wouldn’t even consider a pub setting, it is outside of my budget. And alcohol doesn’t help stability or clear thought. Also, some fathers are taking drugs that don’t mix with ethyl poison. The rest of us aren’t in much of a different situation either.
    Sorry to throw around cautions and negatives, when we are trying to be positive. Play to win.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 12th September 2017 @ 10:03 am

  20. 18 and 19 the idea was floated with the intention of bringing new faces, as well as old.

    The idea of a Waiheke Island meeting would (I think) be restrictive and in some cases unattractive.

    Given the desire of some wishing to travel a distance I would suggest an Auckland Venue, and a time of 1pm.

    I am sure there would be readers who could propose a venue at little or no cost, which could be covered at the door.

    Regardless of past difficulties that have arisen with the media, over certain issues, this thinking also suggests that there would not be issues that are currently topical, and might be brought to the meeting by new faces.

    In the past new faces often brought valuable information about many current situations, and also the realization that they were not in the unique position that they thought.

    I would not like to think that the opportunity was reduced to a reclusive and defensive position of familiar faces – that is something that needs to be put in the past. Many years ago one of first people I happened to meet at such a meeting was Barry Woods, from Waiheke, who had authored a book on the Family Law as it was then.

    I take a leaf from his book, that while many of us will be left with memories of injustice and unfinished business it is not beyond us to help other people.

    While many of us are comformable with informal meetings, I am sure any need for chairmanship could be resolved on the day.

    Personally I have organised and funded many such meetings, simply because I felt there was a need, and a purpose, at that time.

    It would be best if a new face, put up his hand and organised a venue, if they felt likewise.

    Failing this I would suggest there is not sufficient concern among the men in this audience to warrant the effort, not that a meeting of those interested should not be held, and familiar faces might like to consider those options if we do not have a viable response by mid October.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 12th September 2017 @ 12:03 pm

  21. Thanks very much Downunder.
    It is astonishing that Barry Woods book is practically as relevant today, as it was then. (I thought Barry trusted and respected the integrity of familycaught$ quite a bit more than I do.)
    So little has changed, in such a long time.
    Accordingly, newer styles of addressing this challenge against families is needed.
    In my opinion, the complacency of most men is our biggest challenge. It will never happen to me. It is too late to do anything about it…..
    We have to educate the population of men to act to protect themselves, from those meant to protect vulnerable people.
    It did seem to me that the suicide protest at Parliament had a hidden theme on men’s suicide. Pity that theme was so well hidden.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 12th September 2017 @ 1:15 pm

  22. I am happy to collate suggestions for agenda, in priority order.
    If interested people EMAIL a list of their topics of interest, I will assemble them together and report.

    murraybacon nz

    If anyone has any particular anonymity requirements, please detail those too. Some people might like to give me a speech, for someone to read, so that they are not identifiable in the group? This also allows checking that they are in fact not identifiable. This can be a minefield.
    Also, some people might prefer other dates. If enough people suggest a different date, for side topics, then I am happy to bring that together, within reason. If the date for side topics is before 4th November, then the conclusions can be reported to the larger group.
    I hope that approach gives everyone the best chance of getting what they want the most.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 12th September 2017 @ 4:57 pm

  23. Suggestions for an agenda could be taken from the 2005 Men’s Conference at Henderson, Waitakere, or from the recent Men’s Conference at Wellington.
    Men’s Conference 2005 see page v or 5 Table of Contents
    I haven’t seen any proceedings from the recent Men’s Conference yet. These would be very helpful at the present moment.
    By comparison, an agenda could be produced by issues as raised by men attending men’s support groups.
    As I recall from the previous millennium, complaints mainly were related to familycaught$ custody decisions, failure to discipilne parents and IRD Child [and spousal] Support, after separation.
    Following these might give a conference a reactive focus, rather than proactive.
    It also might seem unnecessarily negative?
    Do we want to face challenges head on, or keep ourselves in the nicy pie, politically correct space?
    My vote is half of each and then quickly drink the Cool Aid (without tasting it) as a group afterwards………….

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Thu 14th September 2017 @ 12:42 pm

  24. I find it odd that a lot of organising and competing for attention is going on by well intentioned men around an issue they are passionate about, while the dads charity who actually spend all week supporting dads in crisis are not asked. The NZBF and other facebook groups should asked, along with Kiwi Daddies and Manup, we are doing the bulk of the work now, over a hundred so far this year, I will be in Wellington that weekend, enjoy your talk.

    If any of you actually want to help dads or organise better actual achievable goals feel free to contact [email protected] or attend the Fathers Mauri Ora Circle any Wednesday in Onehunga 7-9pm

    Comment by realkiwi — Sun 24th September 2017 @ 9:52 pm

  25. @24 These snide potshots from Father and Child have been going on about as long as the Labour Party has been a bunch of dysfunctional girls, but that has mostly been because of the risk to tenuous funding lines and the fear of being seen to be involved with the politicaly incorrect.

    As you see, there are no restrictions on who was invited – you have a good day too.

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 25th September 2017 @ 6:24 am

  26. Realkiwi #24 I am very pleased to recognise the work done by Father and Child and their team. We here in Wellington appreciate the passion and commitment of Peter Crossland and before him Les Williams on behalf of Father and Child. Brendon is a star who visits us here from time to time when he is down doing Dad stuff with his young man.
    Co-operation is essential and doing anything in Auckland that does not recognise Brendon and Father and Child would be missing some strength that is on the ground.
    Likewise the small raft of online groups provide support in different ways. We need to build together and respect our differences to broaden a pro-male platform. Man-up has impressive numbers and great direction and certainty, Kia Kaha! They are of great support to some guys I work with. Likewise Kiwi Daddies is an impressive numerical linkage of men and doing practical activity to bring guys together.
    Here in Wellington Peter from Father and Child and Stuart from Kidz Need Dadz have just published a 52 page directory of over 180 organisations, groups and individuals who can assist men, fathers, and families.
    My drug of choice is the Adrenalin I get from listening to men’s stories. Pot shots are not for me.
    Unity of strength, We need to stand together and support one another.

    Comment by Allan Harvey — Mon 25th September 2017 @ 11:26 am

  27. #25 Downunder (Kia ora e hoa)
    I am keeping 4th of November open to join you in and others in Auckland. Will be keen to see an agenda before we commit to the journey. Regards Allan (from Kidz Need Dadz Wellington)

    Comment by allan harvey — Mon 25th September 2017 @ 11:34 am

  28. @27 Thanks Allan.

    Murray has put an email address above for any necessary agenda.

    For many men in society today I think there is a front of the queue feeling; that others haven’t been in the same situation over the last 20 – 30 years.

    I see the day as much for them, as for any agenda items, but like you I would like to see some discussion on proactive efforts.

    Might also save a few more empty shoes on the lawns of parliament.

    Comment by Downunder — Mon 25th September 2017 @ 12:32 pm

  29. When men and women can not longer be distinguished either by speech or by looks, trouble will rain from the ground up to the sky. Confucius

    No Need to google it, just made it up…
    But if CONfucius was alive; he would have said it after reading this thread.

    Are you guys trying to organize a meeting for the sake of organizing one because feminists do?
    Or are you trying to get some resolution and progress for men whom are suffering from legal abuse?
    And preventing the youth from falling into the same traps laid out for men?

    Comment by WrongGender — Wed 27th September 2017 @ 12:35 am

  30. Which you guys are you referring to?

    The meeting is for concerned men.

    Comment by Downunder — Wed 27th September 2017 @ 5:06 am

  31. Apologies, Downunder,
    did not realize it was a piss take.
    No men left… the remnants are castrated.

    Comment by WrongGender — Wed 27th September 2017 @ 9:55 pm

  32. Don’t feed the troll.

    Comment by Downunder — Thu 28th September 2017 @ 6:10 am

  33. #29: This gender thing might be worse that we can imagine. Take a look at this link:- Actually I have not yet managed to watch it through. I have no ideas how males are to survive into the future. Indeed I suggest its an abuse to create male children. An abuse because the extreme policies in this item are here too, perhaps not so far entrenched yet. WrongGender, your “confusious is quite right IMHO.

    Comment by Jerry — Thu 28th September 2017 @ 12:19 pm

  34. #28 Although I offered to collate suggestions of what might go into an agenda, I haven’t yet received any suggestions by EMAIL, apart from the suggestions that I made above.
    I am the troll.
    At least I thought I was (the only), but I am beginning to wonder if there are others too?
    I have no pride in that, I just think trolls are fuckwits. As stupid as the thieves that we should be trying to do something about.
    Remember that this is affecting children, men and women. Positive action is needed for each of these groups.
    Publishing of full stories is the only solid impact that I can see us being able to make.
    I suggest that as the familycaught$ continues to fester, all caught$ are slowly and surely being degraded in the public view. By the time that the legal workers might choose to respond, will be long after law and order is lost memory.
    Much better that we exert customer pressure sooner than that.

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Thu 28th September 2017 @ 7:49 pm

  35. Are the comments working?

    It looks from the comments above that there might be a dozen of us interested in meeting. I’ll cancel my booking for the Albany Stadium.

    Comment by JohnPotter — Sun 1st October 2017 @ 8:13 pm

  36. They were stuffed up but seem to be working now.

    Comment by DJ Ward — Sun 1st October 2017 @ 11:24 pm

  37. Looking forward to the meeting

    Comment by Tony — Mon 2nd October 2017 @ 7:20 pm

  38. Are we each meeting under our nearest motorway bridge?
    I am hoping for conversation!

    Comment by MurrayBacon — Tue 3rd October 2017 @ 1:37 pm

  39. All looking good, I will also try and get there since there is much to discuss and plan for.

    1. We have sufficient evidence I am sure to demonstrate how corrupted lawyers are using the entire created conflict process to make a dishonest dollar….keeping evidence of a mothers harming of children out of the Courts, while ensuring dad never gets quality time with his children…..I have that evidence to table. Facts and records.

    2. Another disturbing crisis is this lastest shooting in Vegas….we see the patsy offered up as being “abusive” towards his partner…..this raised alarm bells for me since my IRD employee sister and close friend of my ex wife has recenty attemtped to label me as “abusive”….in her parenting order applications….

    3. We are all aware of the tactics of the family court corruption… drive a man to anger and conflict… provoke him and then point the finger at how angry and abusive he is… he reacts…..

    4. For record ….DARVO are the actions of psychopaths who will quickly accuse you of their crimes looking quickly to become the victim……my sister has abused her mum, she has committed elder abuse, I have also caught lawyers and relatives lining up to also exploit my mum and her property interests… soon as she became sick……..

    5. The problem for all these parasites is ME…..who has exposed their plans and their selfishness. Watch this space….the bailiffs have stopped calling … we are waiting to see if her protection order applications are successful……being an IRD employee it’s highly likely she will be ……as all those protecting this scam line up to discedit me……..

    We shall see…….there are many who will give evidence of my sister being volatile, abusive towards her mother ….only those looking to exploit this vulnerable widow have something to gain from trying to destroy my credibility……qui Bono…..who benefits……..not me since I do not want anything from my mum…….

    Selfishness is the cardinal SIN……..and as this world and its people destroy themselves…..selfishness and greed will increase…….

    Comment by Hornet — Thu 5th October 2017 @ 9:49 am

  40. History repeating……we are in a time of selfishness…..and apathy and dependence …..which will ultimately lead to dictatorship……

    Our 200 years is almost up…..

    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
    These nations have progressed through this sequence:
    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to selfishness;
    From selfishness to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage.”

    ― Alexander Fraser Tytler

    Comment by Hornet — Thu 5th October 2017 @ 9:59 am

  41. Some people troll because they seek more from the posters
    whiles others are trolls for the sake of attention seeking.
    Some setup a thread as a troll just cause they can – as a piss take
    while others fervently drink such piss to advance their position.
    Seriously,after 40 comments, was it all talk?

    Comment by WrongGender — Thu 5th October 2017 @ 8:31 pm

  42. There are enough unions of father,
    father and kids associations and so many more
    that if we remain divided and keep creating more;
    nothing is ever gonna get achieved..
    And if we keep creating more for the sake of getting together
    And sharing good old knitting techniques;
    never will we become united.

    I have met many a mother hateful of the system
    because her brother or son is stuck in and
    victim of another woman’s scorn and dishonesty.

    How many of us had to get ran down by the BIATCH we married,
    By the system, IRD and CYFS, and lawyers?
    before we got rescued by THE good woman?
    Right there by our side still?

    Suffering along with us, keeping us sane,
    supporting and loving us through thick and thin…
    Looking after our children and loving them still?

    What better advocate do we have but our mothers and sisters?

    First of all Sid needs a statue right in front of parliament where he cremated himself.

    How about we unite and get that off the ground?
    He sacrificed himself for us all and gifted his life so that our plea is known.

    So yeah, in his memory, let there be a new Total Restoration Of Legal and Lawful System movement called TROLLS
    And let a Troll be an activist for a Total Restoration of lawful liberties…

    Comment by WrongGender — Thu 5th October 2017 @ 10:55 pm

  43. @42 There are numerous groups assisting fathers, and that is to be expected.

    In a blended culture with numerous parental situations, there are fathers dealing with immediate issues around their children, or the children they are responsible for.

    One size in that respect could never fit all.

    These groups to a degree also compete with each other, and some have developed an arogance toward what they consider, failed men of some degree. They seldom understand the depth of corruption that backgrounds the position these men find themselves in and cannot relate to the processes, that cause such distress and despair to lead to actions like suicide.

    Groups that form outside the self help fatherhood development regime are promoted as antisocial (read that as anti-state) rather than a balancing force against an agresssive state sector that hides behind the myth of infallible justice.

    There is no reason why these isolated men, who have little support or representation should not have some form of association or political voice. Let’s be clear about the reasons for concerned men meeting and the need to promote an understanding around this.

    Throughout the last 20 years, I have only encountered a very small few, who were in some way too irrational to help. While on the other hand I could write a long list of names of the incompetent arogant skin-wasters, who have hidden behind secrecy and corruption and destroyed the lives of ordinary decent people.

    The difficulty does arise in giving ones personal circumstance its relative position along side that of each other man to find common ground and identify what action is required.

    That in essence is the dividing factor (and understandably so, given the degrees of injustice experienced by various individuals) – that divides men, rather than the numerous groups that exist.

    In a way this has an association with proper gander, in action rather than media – do something so outrageous, no one will believe them, when they tell the story. You make yourself a social outcast by telling your story out loud.

    That’s the perspective we should hold, rather than this … we are disconnected, cannot achieve anything, self diminishing rhetoric.

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 6th October 2017 @ 7:02 am

  44. Thanks Dow-nun-der;
    May it be as it it.
    The above was a proposal.
    Not to support men
    Not to support women
    Not to support children
    over anyone.
    But for one to be on the side of righteousness.
    And to do so: one must work for all
    Not for just oneself.

    From the depths of one’s sorrow springs his well of happiness.
    WE are lucky because we survived. And we are better men because of it.
    Unless we put our rancor and hate and the need to offload away.
    We are bound to recreate the same reality over and over again.

    WE are here for the same reasons.
    Bent over and raped studiously by a system that favours one over another.
    Children’s lives in hiatus whilst parents both males and females
    are prevented access, contact and the right to raise healthy families.

    Essentially children having children and repeating the previous generations mistakes.

    IN my mind the questions are not “who will listen and support me?”
    But how do we engineer a social revolution that allow boys to grow safely to manhood.
    And for Girls to mature safely into womanhood?
    Keeping in mind all the principles and tenets of the Care of Children Act.

    A society that is here for the people no matter the gender, race or economic stature.

    Comment by WrongGender — Fri 6th October 2017 @ 6:23 pm

  45. #44 WrongGender.
    “IN my mind the questions are not “who will listen and support me?”
    But how do we engineer a social revolution that allow boys to grow safely to manhood.
    And for Girls to mature safely into womanhood?”
    The difficulty with that is “safely” for either gender often means some form of control or punishment for the other sex.
    We need to think of realistic things that don’t involve control of the other sex to get gains for men. There are many things the crown does in the family court, health, education etc that are abhorrent and need change, but they as you implied, they are influenced by thier effect on what women presently have.
    Just as important as any desire to change things is this.
    What is going to happen anyway?
    What is inevitable but is being delayed?
    What will get us closer to “safely to manhood for boys”?

    The male pill is just as viable as paternity testing for eg. The male pill only removes near total control of contraception from women, so some women will hate the the male pill. Compulsory paternity testing is just as viable as the male pill but it can expose unfaithfulness, ruining relationships and creating unsupported women. Some people will see it as males trying to get out of being responsible for thier kids. Both things will improve “safely to manhood for boys”
    The male pill is inevitable but is being delayed. Lack of research money!
    Paternity testing is inevitable due to its lowering cost including the affect of cheap ancestry DNA.

    What gives the bigger gian for males and how do we help make the inevitable happen?

    What else is inevitable?
    What else is possible like funding or law changes?
    What do we need to acknowledge but put in the too hard basket?

    Comment by DJ Ward — Fri 6th October 2017 @ 9:55 pm

  46. Perhap’s we should consider the ‘too hard basket’?

    Perhaps we are weak because we are trying to defend attacks from too many fronts?

    If we pooled our resources and concentrated on one issue together would we be more effective?

    There would be critisism from some people that we were neglecting the other valid issues.

    Our trophy cabinet from previous victories is not sparkling with silver and gold.

    We have no coach or captain so everyone is designated to the bench, we
    are literally heading out against our opponents in groups of one, two or three and getting hammered.

    We have great players but we are are all amateurs. All of our opponents get paid.

    So what if we agree that unification is necessary for success within the men’s movement?

    Then we would have that task of choosing the issue that’s going be our first target.

    Should we aim high with the influence of polititions and judges to change the agenda of the courts as our goal?

    Is the punishment of false accusers too much in the hard basket?

    Is drawing attention to the rights of infants and junior male’s not to have their penises mutilated to satisfy some bizarre religious fetish a waste of time?

    Are the walls around the family court so thick that we have no weapons to penetrate?

    Or perhaps compete locally for charity money for the need’s of homeless men?

    Might paternity testing be the issue that we campaign for?

    Perhaps we might list the issues and put it to a vote?

    I’ve been writing to some managers of the men’s health sector and some suggest that domestic violence is the issue that should be the main targeted theme and we should aim for something like the “one in three” campaign that the Aussie’s have had some success with.

    This was the issue that got me interested in the men’s movement and my initial objective has not changed, I would like to see policy change so that ‘males that are known to have been attacked by females, have the right to be questioned before being arrested for man assault’s female’.

    I understand though, that others came for different reasons.

    Should we start with an issue that’s the most significant or simply target one that we most easily can handle, there are reasons both ways.

    The fact remains that we need a win Fellas, WE NEED A WIN!

    We have the option of nominating a captain, – an unenviable position, whoever took on that roll likely will find themselves attacked personally through media and supporters of our opponents etc.

    Perhaps there is another way?,- nominate the mascot ‘captain’ and direct media enquiries to an annonamous source as the international ‘network for men’ has done.

    I have secured the domain name

    The site is not operational yet but with support it will soon be.

    Still no venue for this Meeting !

    How about WE setup a marquee in Western Springs for the Day ?

    Bring a thermos and a folding chair or something to cover the grass.

    Comment by voices back from the bush — Sat 7th October 2017 @ 4:09 am

  47. @44 The unacknowledged veterans of peace?

    Old heads on tired legs.

    I don’t think we need to get too philosophical, but we could be there for the next generation, who could be there for the children …

    When you look at the disrupted mess we have around us today, I don’t believe there will be a quick fix.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 7th October 2017 @ 6:47 am

  48. @46 A Marque for Men (Beats meeting in the Woodhill Forest like a bunch of merry men)

    How about costing out the plan and put up a give a little site to cover the cost.

    At least those too far away can help out that way.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 7th October 2017 @ 7:30 am

  49. @45 –
    I think the problem is simple not huge or in the too hard basked @ 46.

    I know every problem comes with its own set of solutions.
    It is not that ours cannot be solved.
    It is simply how we can change our perspective so we can see the solution.

    I am not calling for a meeting but for action—-

    For a venue, I suggest in front of parliament with the same placards Sid had with him when he self immolated.

    For a first goal, setup of freedom statue for Sid right in front of parliament.
    (like minded people meeting, gathering and simply witnessing Sid’s sacrifice)

    IF you guys (You Downounder included:-) are in Auckland and cannot travel, do the same to support those in wellington. Peaceful Hikoi to point the finger to wellington. And those before Parliament demanding truth about Sid.

    Anyone in CCurch, same. go out there before a gov building and demand the truth in support of those.

    You incidentally will meet and greet and get together and peacefully point the media attention to whats going on in famCourt and in NZ.

    Hard to miss for the media

    Comment by WrongGender — Sat 7th October 2017 @ 1:33 pm

  50. And make sure it is a party atmosphere. Bring a DJ, get people dancing and celebrate…

    Comment by WrongGender — Sat 7th October 2017 @ 1:34 pm

  51. @46 are you working on this Marque in Western Springs concept?

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 14th October 2017 @ 7:20 am

  52. Is it really happening?

    Comment by Tony — Sat 14th October 2017 @ 2:22 pm

  53. There we have it, the election result is now available.

    What is the level of concern?

    Comment by Downunder — Fri 20th October 2017 @ 7:31 pm

  54. The Law Commission is reviewing the Relationship Property Act
    Maybe a submission is in order?

    Comment by allan — Mon 30th October 2017 @ 5:28 pm

  55. #54 allan
    The law as it stands sucks for many men and women, literally all the money the legal profession can get out of them.
    With Labour in charge that dynamic is unlikely to change.
    We are inherently prey unless we pay a lawyer to attempt to get some kind of protection. By directly addressing the issue with a properly made prenup that may likely be ruled unjust and ignored later on, or indirectly with the family trust industry that may very well be ruled unjust and ignored later on.

    Imagine if the law inherently protected your own assets, until 2 years down the track, then the law said any gains were 50:50 from then on. Time to define those assets properly instead of the trying to define them when you first have drunk sex. No exceptions.

    Would lawyers still be needed, other than for forensic accounting disputes.

    Comment by DJ Ward — Mon 30th October 2017 @ 9:28 pm

  56. Jacindarella is our new prime minister, off the back of 7″1/2 % of the vote.

    NZ First deputy leader Tracey Martin, announces that their campaign promise of repealing the anti-snacking law didn’t survive the coalition negotiations.

    In a one line statement Winston announced a new chief of staff.

    Just another day in politics or the biggest blow job in the political history of the country.

    Comment by Downunder — Tue 31st October 2017 @ 4:34 am

  57. The analysis of politics in history records easily enough, the lurching from crisis to crisis, the ‘failures’ and the ‘sucessful’ undertakings, as a matter of opinion, but the critical analysis of the persecutions, the conflicts, and lost possibilities, are usually the consequence of courage and retrospect. They are often not taught but found by those who choose to look.

    The observation: ‘This helped destroy a pattern of life without building a new one.’; is no stranger to anthropology.

    Following this election, the outpouring on social media suggests there is not only disappointment, but varying levels of anger in the consequences of MMP and the way in which this government has formed.

    The initial marketing of the new regime is similar to what we saw in the Clark era, hugging of children, dictates to independent bodies like the Rugby Union to ‘pay the girls too’ and payback to ‘youthquake’ fulfilled with next year’s free education.

    Whether the winds of change are strong enough to blow anything larger than a tongue is yet to be seen, but I don’t recall any pictures of politicians hugging homeless men.

    There is an opportunity here to consider and reconsider the way we use social media and the way in which we respond to our current social situation.

    It would be encouraging to see here today, not only general or specific concerns relevant to the purpose of the site, but also comment on participation in social media, and how this site could make a greater contribution to the social dialogue that is gaining considerable momentum outside of mainstream media.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 4th November 2017 @ 8:36 am

  58. Kia ora Downunder,
    Underwhelming attendance so far.
    Revolution is unlikely based on absenteeism.
    As you know I am a proponent of working within system(s) for change. I accept the label of hopeless optimist but if we stop nagging potentially matters become even worse.
    I believe we need to portray fathers as important in children’s lives. Promote men as a nurturing gender. Advocate for equality. Stronger men, stronger families, stronger communities.
    Kia kaha, Nga mihi ki nga tangata katoa me a ratau hoa aroha.
    Mauri ora.
    Allan, Kidz Need Dadz (Wellington)

    Comment by allan harvey — Sat 4th November 2017 @ 11:51 am

  59. Not necessarily underwhelming attendance … some perhaps reluctant to comment and others happy not to.

    With the change of administration we can expect new visitors, in fact I would expect quite a few in the coming months.

    Some indication of the process and events leading up to our current situation would be helpful. Looking back at older posts such as this one relating to the new parliamentary undersecretary to the Minister of Justice will help understand the extent of the political process we are faced with.

    Comment by Downunder — Sat 4th November 2017 @ 12:20 pm

  60. There’s a follow-up discussion here

    Comment by Evan Myers — Mon 22nd January 2018 @ 1:31 pm

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