Men & Children DV shelters…..how many….if any?
Does anyone know how many mens DV shelters there are in NZ…say compared to womens DV shelters?
I realise they are grossly under represented but would like to find out exactly what the figures are, and where the information can be sourced.
Additionally would be useful to have an idea of what kind of comparative funding each get.
Any information welcome and would likely be of use when putting forward reasoned arguments, in conjunction with DV stats, to those who may suggest male shelters are not necessary.
Hi Jonathan ,Im not able to supply the stats you need, I do believe that Canturbury desperately needs such a service. I applied recently to the ministry of social development for recognition and funding for a Mens refuge and surprise surprise, I’m still waiting for a response from Chief executive Brendan Boyle.
Male victims of DV is no less than a taboo topic among our representatives and they’d rather just Ignore NZ men. Police unfortunately treat male victims the same.
There was this article in sept 2017 which acknowledged that men can be victims too but the topic doesn’t reach mainstream media very often.
Those of us who write in these pages got a mention, which I hope will inspire others to keep the pressure on and keep speaking out, write to MP’s and officials and never give up.
There is a social expectation that men can deal with this in isolation.
Your woman your problem.
There is an extreme lack of acceptance that women’s behavior has changed in the social evolution of the last 50 years.
The Law changes and social change not only creates an environment for increased offending but protects woman who participate in it.
The extreme reluctance to accept and acknowledge this places men under an increased social expectation.
In other words in 2020 we’re still treating men the same as we did in 1970 and not holding women to account for their change in behavior.
maate many years ago a mens refuge was started in manurewa
the guy was overloaded, got stressed/sick and had to shut it,
another attempt happened ten years ago on the nirth shore,
this was apparently shut down due to regulations,
ie they didn’t match a womans refuge standards etc
the wiseguys started in kingseat around 5 yrs ago, 0800494734
they do a great job of housing and supporting men and women
the Ghandi navas group in Otahuhu have rooms for men,
mainly east Asian or muslim but open to all men
East Auckland womens refuge have talked about helping men,
but nothing has ever eventuated as far as I know,
we get dads needing a pso/stay over all the time,
most are in their cars for a few days, hope to find a mates couch
ie father and child has weds night support group in onehunga
This is not a simple issue of how many refuges for men and how many for women.
Several “spaces” for men have been created to allow women to stay in the family home with children which is a pretty mixed agenda about marginalising men. That has been tried in a few locations.
You may find on Google something about Gisborne.
The great promise of Ghandi Nevas is it’s wrap around service for men, women and children. It is being closely researched by Massey Uni and has significant funding and now three houses for men. Cost is basically a half to a million for the house and about 600K to run it well for a year.
We have a small venture here in Kapiti but nothing like that funding levels.
Tauranga KND have had a facility now for about 15 years but like a lot of ventures it has had its ups and downs. It is not easy work.
At our Kidz Need Dadz Conference in July the Hutt Valley PSO house are presenting a workshop.
I have been told so many times that men have refuges too. But in reallity they are referring to Doss-houses to rehab criminals, mental patients and drug addicts. I found no places where a father could go with children, and within financial and court approved restrictions – let alone such places where support, advice aid and respect were at all on offer. As mentioned, some stalwarts have tried hard and sacrificed much to set these up, but so far users needed to be able to get to Auckland to use one. Every mention from the so-called anti-domestic violence set that fathers are helped, is in fact a cynical tactic for such persons to deceive you that they are fair mined and are geuinely against all violence. It is about how they want to see themselves.
We recall several groups such as those who took over the Glenn Inquiry suggesting the idea of refuges for men who had nowhere to go when kicked out of their houses through Police ‘Safety’ Orders or FC ‘Protection’ Orders. However, in typical male-bashing fashion these refuges were not intended to accommodate men supportively but to function as feminist indoctrination centres. Men who might go to such places could expect to be treated as criminals and probably would face bad outcomes if they dared to deny their inherent badness, their wish to exert patriarchal power and control, or if they told the truth about their partner’s violence or about the false allegations that got them kicked out of their homes.
Needless to say no government money ever arose for the proposed men’s refuges. Men aren’t worth it.
MOMA it is a great pity that you don’t spend more time researching the reality rather than shooting from the hip.
see #4 above. I unfortunately need to report Ron Vink will not be presenting at our conference on the Hutt Valley PSO house but there is excellent research available on Ghandi Nevas from Massey Uni or you could contact Rakesh Naidoo at the Human Rights Commission to find out the pretty significant funding provided and the work done in a pretty holistic sense (3-4 mill for the trial).
I understand that about 85% of the men offered a place at Ghandi Nevas accept the offer which provides a good basis for research collection, interpretation
and application to wider areas.
Allan @ 7: No real ‘refuge’ for men has been funded. Thanks for letting us know that funding has been provided for feminist indoctrination centres for men who have, often injustly, been thrown out of their homes by our DV laws.
And it does seem strange that this information hasn’t been shared here before, or if it has that we missed it.
Ghandi Nevas started as a local issue, an ethnic issue and was initially privately funded. The information is freely available. Had you read my post at #4 above? Brendon from Father and Child has mentioned it before as well.
We don’t actually see these ventures as amounting to refuges for men. But thanks for the information.
It’s a great pity that you see the need to denigrate as opposed to simply providing correct information in a supportive manner. Fact is we do generally spend a lot of time researching matters. But attacking colleagues seems to be the story of the men’s movement.
Looking back, the only men that really needed refuges, (in the old days) really did need the services of the Salvation Army.
The Family Court changed the face of this country.
We saw a homicide in the elite Epsom Ave, where a man walked into a house and shot his wife, during a Family Court Case, and the idea of the refuges talked about here became a realistic proposal with women advancing their new found authority and authority changing its attitude to men.
We’re thirty years down the track, and these iniatives along with others have been
in the name of social progress.
TBH I think good people are wasting their time continuing to push such proposals let alone argue over them.
Next generation problems are rolling out of today’s homes faster than society can deal with them.
This is an old idea that never came to fruition.
I am not sure what MOMA mean by refuge but I do know that here in Kapiti we offer accommodation, some basic food, friendship and support with bureaucracy of various shades. It is not the same level of service that Ghandi Nevas provides but it is men supporting men and their children. I know of at least two other such ventures which are all largely supported by a dedicated few. What I do know is that the people who use these services at times of trouble and stress appreciate what can be offered.
Researchers from MOMA are more than welcome to come and look at what we offer. Yes the Mens’ Movement has a sad history of dissent which is why I try to just get on with the work.
The HRC just put their oar into the muddy waters of Jan Logie’s Domestic Violence Bill as can be seen in my two comments below.
Can anyone make sense of what employers are supposed to do other than refer potential cases to a list of
NOMINATED WOMEN’S GROUPS
How I define a refuge – If you imagine what a woman with children in tow can expect from a Women’s Refuge – then a Men’s refuge will deliver a 100% carbon copy of what women can expect froma Women’s refuge. Its not the Salvation army or any other group prostituting its soul so as to get Politically tainted Government gold. Certainly the Duluth wheel of power and control will never be seen in such an establishment. It is a place which caters for children and respects fathers as wholesome valued parents.
Mr Harvey, are the places you mention equiped to receive and represent children with their fathers like women’s refuges do for women?
I had not heard of either organisation, but then I imagine funding is indeed tight. How many others are there? Previous efforts to set up refuges for men were in the Auckland area as far as I am aware. My point is that Dads in need are going to find it a problem to travel far and probably impossible to go far with the children. Court would prevent him and we all know Dads who take the kids are treated as “Kidnappers”.
Kiwi Keith, any parent who leaves town (or country) with kids is effectively kidnapping and the Court should order the kids back. I have had a few successful cases this year.
Women’s refuge is pretty well funded and they have set-up grants such that when rehoused mum should not want for beds, bedding, kitchen stuff, car seats, strollers etc. None of the groups I work with have pockets that deep.
Kidz Need Dadz have facilities to accommodate children. The Male Room does not.
Why would men wish a 100% carbon copy of women’s refuge? Even if we had their resource backing we would use it differently. Other than Paul Catton’s generosity and personal support for men Ghandi Nevas is the only Auckland initiative I have heard about in the past 10 years but that is a Wellington centric speaking.
I have yet to visit Wiseguys. Do they accept men with children?
From the Ghandi Nivas web page:
No, Wiseguys don’t accommodate children. They also have some women who come to stay there.
Mr Harvey, Am I reading your reply correctly. Many fathers have fled with children for various legitimate reasond which are in the children’s best interests and promotes their safety.
When I referred to a dad going a distance, it was in relation to hoew far such a father might have to travel in order to get into a refuge. They are not everywhere. Both parents have a responsibility to the safety of the children. Just as a mother might feel a need to take the kids to a refuge, well so might also a father. I’m not just arguing the father’s interests here, but the childrens too – and in some cases the children’s interests are dependent upon the father. Fathers need the exact rights and freedoms to act in the children’s interests as well as their own. And in my definition of “equality” fathers must have the exact same rights and assistances as women would in the same situation
Yes: But Family Court fucked us over by supporting the mother and child reunion.
So, who gives a fuck about children when Feminists are only about themselves?
From Gandhi Nevas
WTF? Is this not the same DV motto I see everywhere? “is HE hurting you and your children? – if so call this number 0800 man haters”
Follow the money:
Does it not make it easier?
This way Police steps in and extract man.
Either you go to jail or you go here!
If you do not go, you are dumb and deaf and blind
because there is no other option.
Same with lawyers, indict someone and say get legal advice.
Police funding? WTF Free ride in?
Total Health Care? Lol Who is paying them to provide funding? Good investment;
Acc, how cool, get them back to work asap. that’s really where they belong. Lower ACC rates for facilities.
Massey University – oh what a wealth of social data + free access to it all. Give the students someone to probe and analyze.
Everytime I read MSD I think MSG
Of course the Church – Confess your sins, give us your soul…trust us with your child…Let us probe your rectum…
And then of course the lottery commission… one addict paying for the other addicts, robbing pete to pay paul
Yeah right –
are they still with the same family?
Do they have contact with their kids?
Or have they through meditation achieved enlightenment and abandoned all attachment?
Clever I say, clever system. It does reduce offending but it solves nothing.
Just a delayed fuse and later a lot of angry guys finding out they have been tricked out of home, family and possessions.
Downunder #20. I believe all those on this thread share a devotion to the children and the children’s best interests. The Feminists and cultural marxists have control of Governments and policies. Regardless of that, like proverbial lemmings we all do our best, even while knowing the odds are impossible in almost all our cases. But as men we still do our best. But much more rarely than lightning, a father can make it through all this with custody of the kids. They all carry the scars, thats for sure, but they limp away into the future. As a part of that, such a family can do with access to a real refuge which will give them some protection and advocacy along the way. Yes you are dead right that we all get done over by the family court and all others of the Anti-DV set – but there is that faintest chance we might just do better than the statistics suggest we will.
@23 A small percentage of those men who get processed by the court end up here let alone get vocal about their experiences.
But in terms of refuges even when they did exist if a father left a relationship with the children there’d be a Family Court warrant the next day and the Police would be seizing the children and returning them to the mother.
It’s never going to be a balanced equation with the likes of Women’s Refuge in terms of a similar operation.
Government Policy just doesn’t think along these lines.
When National proposed a joint venture with Auckland City Mission, I know the question was asked but not answered as to whether it would include a place for grandchildren to visit?
We’re into next generation considerations now.
What also should be said is; what changes did occur were mostly temporary and only to the bennefit of a small number of individuals (in the greater scheme of things) and very little ended up being done differently.
I work in this DV, Court space every day. It is about keeping children men and women safe.
At the moment I am grateful for some crumbs that come our way to support men and their families.
Looking towards equality of funding with Womens’Refuge and being nationwide is way beyond my aspirations at this stage. For me planning to still be up and running one beyond the next client is all that we can do.
Unfortunately I feel lots here are keen to critisie and comment from the sidelines. My hands are dirty most days dealing with situations that are mixed without black and white definitions. My own sceptism is shown in post #4 above.
However we do have some success, we have overturned a few warrants, we have housed men and their children, we have seen men get into employment, housing and courses/counselling to support them and their children.
Ghandi Nevas is an exciting fairly well resourced project with a big vision. Having met some of the guys I know many are grateful and with contact with their children and some reconciled in their relationship (yes I too wonder for how long). Kick them all you like BUT they are being researched and the 93% statistic is better than my results and I am keen to learn what I can do to improve that. It does nothing for guys (or their children) to be locked up on breach of protection order charges or MAF. This just complicates matters in Family Court, harms their work situation or prospects and creates further expense that they can do without.
Kiwi Keith as you ask
That is what the initial findings say, yes they have family, yes they are respected, yes they build connection with other men and services, yes most keep contact with their kids, yes having one agency work with both mum, dad and the kids allows creative solutions gives them a lot more strings to their bow than I can muster.
The work I do is mucky. Sometimes I get it wrong. BUT often we help men and children and wider families move forward. As I suggested above rather than snipe from the sidelines do some research, dig in and find out what is happening rather than assuming your own prejudice.
You can call us on 0508 Call Dad that number works. I tried 0800 Man Haters and it rang and the women’s answer phone said she couldn’t take my call. She did tell me to have a great day and I intend to working in the real world. Allan, Kidz Need Dadz (Wellington)
While I am here describing our work you are very welcome to provide some practical assistance.
You can donate to Kidz Need Dadz and receive a tax deductible receipt via givealittle
Our National Conference is being held next week in Wellington and registrations are still available for those who do want to know more.
I think Allan makes an important point that could be explained a different way.
If you’ve been involved in something like this then you would understand what he’s saying.
Blokes will try and solve their problem, and it’s a pretty desperate state of affairs when they give up in desperation.
Then take them out of their normal environment and the stunned mullet is a pretty helpless individual who is in a state of shock if not traumatized.
It’s hard work, to read the situation, analyse the problems and get that guy up and running again, on limited funding and scant resources.
It’s not just the refuge, it’s the quality of the support as well.
Kia ora Downunder
Yes that is the voice of someone else who has experience of being down in mucky trenches, under fire, supporting men. Often we may just to raise a periscope for them to catch a glimpse of their children and provide some hope fore their soul. Maybe we just help them survive to re-engage another day.
This is a cut and paste from 2016 on the increasing prison population.
This is probably the biggest men’s refuge in the country.
And this is significant also
Mr Harvey. I did not mean to offend you personally. I re-read what I wrote, so I guess you have identified yourself as being a part of the “Anti-DV-set” I criticise. In truth I think we all can be considered a part of an anti-violence set. It was not aimed at you. I realise it must be hard to get even grey-successes if you are operating withing that system. Sorry, I turn off at statistics – I have experiences of how they are stacked to show black is white etc. The Justice Dept “hitting home survey” being notorious. When a family is having these difficulties, its not the individual they experience so much, but the effect of the organisation – IRD – court – WINZ – CYPFS – refuge – white ribbon etc and of course the policy tentacles seem to have unlimited universal reach. I suspect you are a rare gem too often hidden from the view of the chients being tortured by the whole organisation. My apologies for giving you offence.
Downunder does hit some real notes here that most are not aware of.
And Kiwi Keith does bring it into the real world with
Mr Harvey describes accurately the scope of limitation
Looking at my own experience. And even though I like to trash lawyers much, and everyone one else for the sake of being opinionated; I have to say I am very fortunate to be surrounded by a most dedicated team which can help take the sting out of the hurt and bring things back into perspective not only so that I lived to fight another day but that I did not become my own worse enemy and alienated my self with that much needed support and help.
It is however disheartening for a man to stand accused and know he has done nothing wrong and to go through hoops and loops in simply trying to clear his name and be with his kids and yet have the entire system slam dunking him for trying his best.
All being what it is though…
What do we do about it?
I keep saying the DV ACT 95 is the key problem.
AS soon as you stand accused, you lose all rights (guilty until proven innocent.)
This is unlawful, it is sexist and leads to systematic abuse.
Should we take the right of police to press charges on behalf of presumed victims?
Look at the trend in increase in prison population and you can link it directly with the police having such right.
More remand, more recidivism (It’s my home, it’s my child… what right do they have to ask me to hide from my own family? I have done nothing wrong.
But the bail terms make sure, any presumed breach lands you directly in jail.)
Essentially is bail in those conditions not an enforced contract by the Police and unlawfully entered into under duress?
In the past people slept their grievances off and maybe even laughed it off the next day.
The police mediated and created diversion.
Now police takes on the role of the injured. And this is fraud. Even when injury has not occurred.
Worse the bail act makes sure once presumed guilty you lose all rights to your presumed victim ( no contact – no home – a docket with charges -…)
How can we lobby the governement to make changes to this DV ACT???
And the bail act?
And the rules about charging someone?
What threshold should be met before charges can be made?
What investigations should take place before any charge can be laid?
It’s not Government you’re fighting.
In the background is the Family Law Section, who regard the DVA as untouchable territory.
It’s been discussed here before … UOF at a face to face meeting with their key players.
Law Commission is not likely to make any recommendations contrary to their position.
That stalemate has existed for 15 plus years.
You can understand how Rome ended up in civil war for the same reasons.
33- This is the defeatist approach I do not agree with.
It may have been tried before but perhaps the climate then was not right for such change.
If a man alone can successfully lobby the government for paid parental leave; imagine what a few can do?
There is not such thing as Untouchable territory.
If we cannot revisit a 95 act in the now (bearing in mind anything can be changed at the right time)
Then at least we can get rid of police power to prosecute or bring about an inquiry as to such power.
From @30 is hinting at something here
Bail sentencing act and victim’s right act… the obvious is staring at us.
If the law is wrong, change it… Maybe family court and police are all victims of the law too.
It’s what the law says!
And this is the icing on the cake.
They cause the distress and then lock you up when you react.
Fight or run – for guys it’s that simple. (please do not tell me that is why men are violent).
Men women and children if provoked can be violent. This is pernicious provocation and at the state level.
But we you can’t fight and you can’t run.
And are unable to protect your family; what can we do?
We stand up firm and say “Fuck this!”
And that’s what the psychopaths in uniform wants and had been angling for all along.
Someone to assert their power over.
WE took the bait and they took our freedom.
Law Culture Policy call it anything or many things.
One man stumbled into a policy position that hadn’t considered the possibility of his circumstances, that’s something a little different.
You might call the answer defeatest – those having been in your shoes before would probably say your optimism is yet to get a dose of reality.
All it takes is for good men to do nothing for evil to prosper.
Obstacles are the only things one sees once one takes his eye off his goal.
To Every truth; its own dimension.
Early bird gets the worm.
Patience is a virtue.
So on an so on…
If it affects you and me and it affects more than you and me. We can do something.
The question is what?
What has been done and has not worked?
Why did it not work?
How can we make it work?
More essentially, what do we plan to achieve?
I will take it to parliament myself.
My goal is to change to DVA ACT so that Police cannot press charges (up to the victim.)
Or Define specific victim circumstances where Police can press charges.
The bail act is only relevant due to that.
At the moment all it takes is for someone to have a bad dream and you see yourself under charges.
The next thing is that every one that has a wet dream may be facing rape charges.
The next thing we will be facing is
I have the feeling that like many people you misunderstand this saying.
Whether you have been run over by the steam roller or burnt by the system and lived to tell the tale and like others who have arrived here, we are not the good men in this saying.
‘Good men’ as such and this is my view of the context of that piece refers to those people who have not suffered but realise the importance of your plight.
Take it as you wish.
But what affects me affects you.
What affects you affects all of us.
So the good men I refer to are those with a conscience and with moral.
If you do not mind telling me please what has already been tried and how did it go?
For your info, I am a veteran in this. And I did not volunteer. Even as we speak now, some very evil minded people are trying their goddam best to upset and methodically emotionally and psychologically dismantle everyone I have worked so hard to protect and cherish using these “laws” and courts or processes and protocols just to pass the time. Because they cannot accept to be wrong.
I am aware of the human factor as well as the system factor and am more so aware of the biggest of all “the pass the buck – protect your own ass” factor/mentality inherently embedded within the courts and social services.
Please educate me. With respect.
The site is full of posts like this.
“Blokes will try and solve their problem, and it’s a pretty desperate state of affairs when they give up in desperation.
Then take them out of their normal environment and the stunned mullet is a pretty helpless individual who is in a state of shock if not traumatized. ”
For the most part boys and men need male only spaces to deal effectively with stress or trauma. The denial of such places is contributing to growing rates of male suicide. Unfortunately when women enter a male environment they tend to suck up all the compassion. They don’t even need to demand it because men will tend to do it by default.